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May 2, 2023 - Lionel Nation
16:45
Breaking Down the Collapse of Witness Memory in the Trump Sexual Assault Case
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All right, my friends.
I want to talk a little bit about some trial law stuff.
Trial advocacy, especially in view of this E. Gene Carroll.
The sexual assault case, civil case involving President Trump, that is extremely and exceedingly critical for me and you to discuss.
But I want to explain to you something right off the bat which is critical.
The idea of emergency food.
You know, when I heard this years ago, like a lot of people, I don't know why I thought, oh my God, who are these preppers?
Who are these people where they're crazy talking about food?
There's always going to be food.
This is before supply chain problems.
This is before everybody went nuts over toilet paper during COVID, when toilet paper had nothing to do with COVID, if you know what I mean.
This is when we go crazy over anything.
I mean, remember ransomware and there was no gasoline?
Can you imagine what would happen if for some reason there was some idea put out that food was scarce or there was an emergency and the local news teams would go to your favorite stores and you'd see lines of people outside and the panic and the hoarding.
What happens if for some reason you need emergency food?
What are you going to do?
What are we talking about?
What, banana chips?
Huh?
Some jerky?
Some stewed prunes?
I don't think so, Sparky.
I don't think so.
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Alright, now listen to me.
I want you to do a favor.
Do me a favor.
The next time you go to a, I don't know, go to a store or you're buying lottery tickets or new vape cartridge or whatever you do, wherever you go, wherever you just go into some place, do yourself a favor.
And when you go in with your friend or your spouse, your wife, your husband, whatever it is, go in, take a look at the clock.
Take a look at the clock.
Make a note of it.
12.22pm.
Maybe take a picture.
Maybe take a picture surreptitiously.
You'll see why.
Let's say the clerk or whatever.
How old do you think he is?
Did he have any jewelry?
Any tattoos?
Any earrings?
Did he wear glasses?
What color hair did he have?
Was he heavy, stocky?
Did he have an accent?
Was he right-handed, left-handed?
What was he wearing?
What color was his shirt?
How many people were in the store when you were in there?
Just keep in mind this.
Okay?
Just keep this in mind.
And then, an hour later, make it simple.
An hour later, turn to your friend or your compatriot and say something like, Let me ask you a question.
What time did we go into that store?
Don't look at your watch.
What time did we go in?
Remember the store we went to you?
What time was that?
What time would you say?
Give me a time.
I don't even know what time it is now.
What time do you think?
How many people were in the store?
Remember the person behind the clerk?
What was it?
A man?
A woman?
What was he?
Did he sound like he was born in this country?
Did he have an accent?
What color was his hair?
What color was his shirt?
Was he right-handed or left-handed?
Did he have any earrings, any jewelry, any studs, any tattoos?
Was he wearing a watch?
Was there anybody else behind the counter with him?
How many people would you say were in the store at the time?
Okay, stop right there.
You could say, it was 12.22 p.m.
Here's a picture of him.
He had dark hair.
He had a yellow shirt.
Don't you remember what the shirt said?
It had a phrase on it?
He was right-handed.
Remember when he did this?
There was somebody behind the counter.
He was talking.
Okay, this was an hour ago.
An hour.
You don't remember any of this.
Now, when somebody talks to you about something that happens 25 years after the fact, and they don't remember certain things, do you hold it against them?
How much can we forget?
What do we say when we remember things?
Now, stop for a second.
In the case of E. Jean Carroll, who was claiming that President Trump assaulted her, this is something you normally remember.
This is something you normally remember.
You will remember things that you cannot believe you remember.
You will remember the fact that there was a barking dog in the background.
I'll never forget one time there was a fellow, it was an armed robbery case.
It was mine.
And we always interviewed all the witnesses before.
If you're going to go to trial, you better listen to this guy.
This guy was talking about how he remembers this day.
Because he walked in and he said, somebody left the coffee thing.
He had a convenience store.
Somebody left the coffee going through that burnt coffee.
And that damn dog was barking and this and that and his daughter.
And I was running late because I had to pick my mother up from the doctor.
I said, would you stop with the specifics?
Have you ever noticed some people, they're very good at specifics.
I've had relatives, they tell you a story.
You know, I was...
No, it was Tuesday.
Yeah, Tuesday.
No, it can't be Tuesday.
It doesn't matter what day it was.
Those are great witnesses, boring people in life.
But when you're E. Jean Carroll and you say, I remember that.
I called my friend up.
I called my friend up on this day.
And I said, supposedly, or supposedly as people say, this is what happened.
This Donald Trump guy did this.
Should you call a doctor?
I don't know.
Did you call the police?
How did you sound?
Does it matter whether it was a Tuesday or a Wednesday?
Does it matter what time of day it was?
Does it matter that you might not know whether it was 95 or 96?
Does that matter to you if you don't remember what color tie he was wearing?
Or how many people were in the store?
It depends.
Life is like that.
What does that mean?
I don't know.
When you remember things, do you remember what happened?
Or do you remember the last time you told the story?
My beloved mother would say stuff to me.
But one day I told her, I said, you know that story you always tell?
Yeah, that didn't happen.
I mean, it sort of happened, but you remember the story that you told.
Because she was a natural actress.
Great performer.
But you might remember last time you told the story.
It's kind of a funny story.
But that's not what happened.
Sometimes we lard things on.
We remember.
We forget.
Do you know what happens when people who are the victim of sexual assault, especially if you ask kids what happens, they go into another place.
They dismiss themselves.
They remove themselves.
They almost rise out of their body.
It's like an out-of-body experience.
And what you might think, is normal.
You don't know what normal is.
You don't know anything.
You would be surprised how when terrible things happen in real life, it's not like the movies.
When people sometimes are shot, they don't even fall down.
Some people don't even know it.
It's not the way movies are.
People don't remember certain things.
People don't act the way you would think.
And when you remember something, when you recall something, when somebody does something to you, when you are the victim of something, your focus becomes on what is being done to you.
What is happening to you.
The pain you feel.
The fear you feel.
The worry you feel.
Not what time of day it was.
Was he wearing what color was his shirt?
You don't know.
What people remember.
You have no idea.
And what does remember?
What does remember?
What does constitute memory?
I'm a psychology major.
You know what that means?
Nothing.
But one of the things which I loved was memory.
There were a couple of classes I liked.
Perception and awareness changed my life.
And memory.
And I used to always look at the beginning of the, whenever there was a new, you know, I would look at the table of contents and get a feel for where the case was going.
And in this higher level class on memory, half of this book was devoted to forgetting.
It was forgetting.
And remembering things sometimes is a weird thing.
There was a woman who had almost eidetic memory.
It was a story that was photographic memory.
I'm going to look at this just to get this.
Eidetic memory is the ability to vividly recall an image you are exposed to, but only briefly.
Eidetic memory is this ability to...
It's very rare.
Very few people have it.
Now, let me tell you how good this was.
There was a woman who was so...
Her memory was so good.
I mean, so good.
Remember the GAF...
Viewfinders, stereoscopic.
Remember, G-A-F was Henry Fonda.
And you would look through these two.
If you close one eye, you would see a flat picture.
But if you open the other eye, you saw depth because the two pictures were a little askew.
Okay.
This woman was so miraculous.
She could go in on one...
They could take pictures.
Remember the old dot matrix printers?
They could take stereoscopic vision and put a recessed letter, like the letter T. If you put the two, the scattered X's and Y's together, and you look through this viewfinder, you could see the letter T. But only if you had them both simultaneously.
They could take 10,000 dots.
You can come in on one day, look at it, remember it.
Come back the next day, See the other side of it and superimpose them and see the letter.
She did up to a million dots.
She had a memory you can't believe.
Now a lot of people, a lot of people on TV, will say things that they remember and you're not really sure.
Okay, August the 3rd, 1972.
I was wearing a pink...
It was a pink...
No, no.
It was a lavender Ike jacket with pans ney and wellingtons.
Now, how do I know that?
You're telling me that?
What a memory!
Wait!
How is this verifiable?
How do I know she was wearing that?
She says she was wearing...
Anyway.
It's just like when you...
We have this...
This kind of a friend who is...
She's an incredible psychic.
She tells you stuff you already know.
Wait a minute.
You're having trouble with your...
With your cousin.
I know that.
No, no, no.
And you're worried about a job.
I know that.
Tell me what the lottery numbers are.
Oh, I can't do that.
You're just telling me stuff I know.
Well, this woman had a memory you can't believe.
Anyway, to make a long story short, she went almost crazy.
That's the story.
Memory is the worst thing in the world.
Memory is terrible.
Forgetting.
Forgetting is memory.
Forgetting is therapy.
Forgetting is survival.
Forgetting.
And what you think you remember.
What you think you remember.
Ask somebody who went through one event and ask them, tell me what you remember.
And you will hear different things.
Did he look mean to you?
What did he say?
What did he say?
This is why we don't like hearsay.
So do this little trick.
Go someplace.
Make a note of it.
Note the time.
And then wait an hour.
Or whatever it is.
And then ask.
Especially if you have multiple people.
You will not believe.
I don't know.
How many people were in there?
I don't know.
You were just in there.
Oh, I wasn't paying attention.
I used to hear sometimes people who were robbed, they would talk about the barrel of the gun being this big, like the size of a cannon.
And I said, this is ridiculous.
This is the second time I've heard this.
And somebody one time explained to me, there was a psychologist who explained that there's kind of like a, not really a parallax, but you look at the end of the barrel and everything kind of moves back and it's a common reaction.
It's an illusion, not a hallucination.
A hallucination and hallucination is something that you see that's not there.
An illusion is something that's there that you see distorted.
Remember the moon illusion?
At the horizon, sometimes it looks huge.
It's at the same radius.
Look at this.
Here's the Earth.
If the moon's here, the moon's here.
It doesn't matter.
It's the same radius.
But at the horizon, it looks larger.
Why is that?
Is it because of the fact of the prismatic, the effect of the lens of it?
No.
It's perspective.
It's an incredible thing.
Perception and awareness.
It's weird what the brain does.
Let me ask you this question.
I'm going to ask you a question, and I'm not going to answer it, but I want you to put the answer in the comments.
See if you can get this one right.
It's an answer.
You're going to answer it the wrong way, but let me give you the question.
How come when you get dizzy, you throw up?
Now, I know you might.
I don't throw up.
But when people get dizzy, they go on a ride or a concession or something.
You spin around, they throw up.
Why?
Why don't you sneeze?
Why don't you become incontinent?
Why don't you laugh?
Why don't you belch and eructate and wax borborygmic?
Why do you throw up?
Why are you throwing?
Why just spinning?
And people will say, I know the cochlear and the silly.
I understand that.
But why?
I understand the movement.
But why does movement relate to Emesis and nausea.
Think about that.
Oh, it's a great question.
Because trial work is human nature.
Trial work is psychology.
Trial work is perception and awareness and memory.
And I'm telling you, what is memory?
All right, my friends.
Thank you so, so very much.
Thank you for attention.
And please, thank you.
I know you're going to like this video.
I know you're going to subscribe to the channel.
I know you're going to hit that little notification buzzer, bell or whatever, so you're notified of new videos and live streams.
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