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June 10, 2022 - The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters

01:33:27

The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters #412

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	Good afternoon, folks.
	Welcome to the podcast of The Lotus Seaters for Friday, the 10th of July, 2022.
	My name's Carl.
	I have the absolute pleasure to be joined by Peter Whittle.
	Peter?
	It's a pleasure to be here, Carl.
	Honestly, I've been waiting ages to get you on.
	Well, you were on ours first.
	I know.
	But I have to say, I was just generally admiring your setup here.
	Oh, thank you.
	I mean, all these people...
	I mean, it's a real media hub.
	And I couldn't do it without them.
	There's way too much work for just me to do.
	Lovely to be here, Carl.
	Thank you.
	Right, well, let's get straight into it then.
	So it turns out that we've discovered what kind of Islam the British Caliphate will be following.
	Right.
	Sunni Islam.
	We found this out recently because of a filming of a Shia film called Lady of Heaven, and...
	The Sunni activists protested, got it shut down, which we'll go through in a minute, and no one in our government objected at all.
	Well, nobody, as I was saying to you before we came on, there wasn't even a kind of platitudinous, not kind of response.
	I think there are two things I would say, actually, Carl.
	Nothing from the government.
	You kind of expect that now.
	You know, you do kind of expect that.
	But then on the other hand, considering this is, if you like, a creative endeavour, You would think that some actors or some writers or some arts world would come out and sort of say this is a great worry to us or something like that, however lame, but nothing.
	And do you remember what the response to Salmond Rushdie was with the Static Verses?
	Well, I sort of do.
	I remember some of it was shameful.
	Yes.
	I remember, I think, I don't want to misname anyone, but there was somebody who said, actually, a public intellectual said, you know, it's outrageous what he's done.
	Frankie, you know, gets what he deserves and everything.
	That was, I think, when a bit of a kind of benchmark was set.
	Because it went ahead and it proved therefore successful.
	Salman Rushdie was under a fatwa and he was basically living in hiding for 10 years, something like that.
	It was a very long time.
	A long time.
	And since then, we've had...
	Issues, not just in this country, whether it's Charlie Hebdo, whatever it is, come up every so often.
	And it's basically extremely important that they're resisted.
	I'd say the only reason that it doesn't seem to happen more is that we've now got a great sort of self-centership going on.
	Yes.
	I mean, at least during the days of Salman Rushdie in the late 80s, early 90s, there was a public discussion about it.
	Yeah, yeah.
	At least you had voices on either side saying, well, hang on a second.
	Aren't we a tolerant nation who believe in free speech?
	But now we just have silence.
	But anyway, before we go on, we're actually hiring at Lotuses.com.
	presenters to come and work here.
	So if you are interested in that, go to logacies.com/careers.
	Check out the job description.
	You'll need to produce written and video content for the website.
	So if you've got something to say and you're very clever and have lots of interesting things that you think would be interesting for the people who watch us, do.
	Do apply.
	We'd like to hear from you.
	Anyway, so Lady of Heaven is a film which we can call a Shiite film.
	Now, I'm not an expert in Islamic theology or historiography or any of it, really.
	But as I understand it, there is a schism in the Islamic world between Sunni and Shiite.
	The Sunnis believe that one political faction were the legitimate successors and the actual successors to Muhammad and the various rightly guided caliphs.
	And then you had a second faction who believed, I think it was the grandson, Ali, who was wrongly done during this succession.
	And the Shiite faction believed that he should have been the successor and wasn't.
	It's like, right.
	So the schism in this is, as I understand it, a political schism from 1,400 years ago.
	Very important.
	But the problem with Lady of Heaven is that it presents the Shiite narrative on the succession and on the people.
	Now, I dread to comment on a film I haven't seen, but I mean, where would I go to see it?
	Well, why not?
	Everyone else is.
	Exactly!
	There are people saying that this is blasphemous.
	One of the protesters said something like, we have a right not to be offended.
	I've got all the clips.
	We'll go through all of that in a second if you don't mind.
	So basically, yes, in a way...
	I mean, I think, you know, your understanding of the political schism is obviously entirely correct.
	However, I think that the general principle here sort of almost overrides it.
	I mean, it almost doesn't matter what it's about.
	No, no, you are absolutely right.
	It doesn't matter what it's about because they don't know what it's about.
	But what they know is it's, as you say, blasphemous, but politically blasphemous.
	And that's, I think, a very interesting aspect of Islam, is that there is no separating the religious tenet from the political tenet.
	And that's concerning if you live in, say, a secular country, where there should be a distinction between the public and the private, but anyway, I'll Move on.
	So the film was banned in Iran, Pakistan, and Egypt already, and it apparently tells the story of Leith, an Iraqi child in the middle of a war-torn country, after losing his mother, finds himself in a new home with an elderly woman who tells him the story of Fatima, the daughter of Mohammed, from the Shia perspective.
	Now, this was not greeted well, generally.
	On the 2nd of June, there were protests.
	Lots of protests.
	All around England.
	In Blackburn, there was a silent protest.
	Now, that, I thought, was an interesting step.
	I've never heard of a silent protest before.
	Yes, why particularly, actually?
	Yeah, I don't know.
	I don't know why it was silent.
	But 25 people turned up to view cinemas in Blackburn to hold a silent protest.
	None of the group were holding banners, but simply wanted to have their feelings known to the cinema chain.
	Which, honestly, I think that's entirely respectable.
	I mean, you could have spoken, as far as I'm concerned...
	You could have had banners, but peaceful, quiet protests say, look, we're not happy with this.
	That's fine.
	And a spokesperson said that the film wouldn't be shown and would be pulled.
	The problem that they are addressing is apparently it contains the Prophet Muhammad's face.
	Computer generated, not a person.
	That's correct, because it might have been a bit dangerous for a person to portray Muhammad.
	But the thing is, for Shia Islam, it's not wrong to portray the Prophet Muhammad.
	Because they don't think of him as a god and they don't have a prescription on it.
	It's actually very stringent aspects of Sunni Islam that have a prohibition on portraying the Prophet Muhammad.
	And you can find lots of medieval imagery of Muhammad because it just wasn't wrong a few hundred years ago.
	It's a very modern phenomenon.
	And so the critics have gone on about this saying, well, it's the depictions of Abu Bakr, Umar, the wife of the prophet, Umar, the wife of the prophet Aisha, and other characters were black.
	Right.
	And that was blasphemous.
	The prophet Muhammad famously had a very pale face.
	Very interesting how that, and this is something we'll get into in a minute.
	But anyway, so this was something that caused a great deal of problems.
	So now in Blackburn, it was a silent protest, but in Bradford, it wasn't.
	And I thought we'd watch a few of the clips.
	Let's play this first one.
	And furthermore, just to make the wider audience understand.
	We are very offended.
	As you can see, we are very insulted.
	And we have a right not to be insulted.
	You talk about freedom of speech, but where does your freedom of speech go?
	When it goes to criticizing your policies, when it goes to making critical analysis of your version of history.
	Let me give you one example before I finish.
	If you look in certain countries in Europe, It is forbidden to criticize the Holocaust or to even make a critical analysis whether this event actually occurred in the way that they portrayed or whether there are discrepancies in the version of this story.
	Where does your freedom of speech go then?
	When you look at that, the reasoning behind it...
	It's like a child.
	It's extraordinary.
	And I mean, this particular guy's using our values, if you like, using our feelings against us.
	You know, that is the point, I think.
	And, you know, one hears these kind of arguments all the time.
	You cannot compare what is happening now with what he said there about the Holocaust or whatever.
	The fact is, it seems to me that they interpret free speech as somehow being the right to be able to prohibit.
	You know, this is extraordinary.
	You mentioned Cineworld.
	You know, people said, well, because when I talked about this on the New Culture Forum yesterday, and people sort of came back saying, well, you know, you can understand, you know, the guy's got, or the Cineworld people have got to think of their staff, security, and all that.
	I sort of, I do understand that.
	I'm not stupid.
	I get that.
	But I do think that the time has come where you sort of think, well, actually, Cineworld, just hire huge amounts of security then.
	Keep going.
	But why is it that the police aren't involved?
	I saw not one policeman in any of these clips.
	But what's interesting about this is, first off, notice how he's conflating all of Europe with England.
	In the UK, it's not actually illegal to deny the Holocaust.
	You are actually legally allowed.
	The problem, if you can get the next link up, is how you go about it.
	Now, there's this lady here.
	Can you scroll down?
	I can't remember her name.
	Scroll down a bit because it says her name.
	Alison Chabloz, right?
	She is a singer and blogger who has made lots of songs that are very offensive towards Jews.
	And so she was arrested under the Milicious Communication Act, Section 127.
	So it's not that she is denying the Holocaust.
	It's that she is being racially offensive online.
	So it's a communication method.
	Of putting out her opinion, not actually denying the Holocaust.
	Of course, in places like Germany, yes, it is illegal to deny the Holocaust.
	But notice how our Muslim friend here is conflating all of Europe with England.
	He doesn't draw the distinction there.
	Where does your freedom of speech go?
	Well, I don't think they have freedom of speech in Germany.
	They're a very curated country.
	And so it's interesting how he's conflating them with us.
	One could say that was racist.
	But also, is that the hill he wants to die on?
	We're going to shut down this film because I can't deny the Holocaust.
	I think that this is just of a piece.
	Yeah.
	You know, whether it is comedians, whether it is films, whether it is literary novels such as the Satanic Verses, I think that whatever the nuances of, and I know that they are important, whatever the nuances of the particular case, the overriding thing is you are not going to be allowed to criticize Islam.
	Yes.
	Simple as that.
	All represent a different version of things.
	Yes, or indeed...
	Not even criticism.
	And also, for that matter, you know, a kind of get some sort of unofficial blasphemy law going.
	Yes.
	And I think that, you know, we don't have that in this country now.
	What we do have is far too many people who see this in kind of racial terms.
	You know, they see it as, oh, this is race.
	In fact, I think some of the protesters use this now.
	It's almost like they've cottoned on to this kind of cancel culture.
	I will actually go into that in a second.
	But again, I find it fascinating.
	We have a right not to be offended.
	Who told you that?
	Yes, exactly.
	Where did you get that from?
	Exactly.
	It's, no, there is not a right not to be offended.
	There couldn't be.
	You know, look, we grew up I grew up, at least, I remember going to see Life of Brian, right?
	And it's interesting, looking at some of the comments that I got yesterday, people saying, oh, what are you talking about, Life of Brian?
	There were, you know, demonstrations about that and it was banned, blah, blah, blah.
	Well, actually, no, right?
	I was there.
	I'm old enough.
	You know, the fact is, I remember going to see the Life of Brian.
	I was at Canterbury University at the time.
	And Canterbury, of course, is the premier church town of England.
	Canterbury Cathedral.
	And even there, actually, it was being shown at the cinema.
	And this has become Life of Brian.
	Yes, there were demonstrations, rather quiet ones, there were demonstrations.
	It was not banned.
	A few cinemas banned it.
	But it's become part of our popular kind of folklore.
	Everyone knows the song.
	Everyone still laughs at the jokes.
	He's a very naughty boy.
	All of that.
	What have the Romans ever done for us?
	Yes, exactly.
	And all of this.
	That would be unimaginable, obviously, if you're talking about Islam.
	Unimaginable.
	That is the crux of it.
	And that's what we have to say.
	Are you happy with that?
	Well, I'm not.
	No, it's disgraceful.
	But you are exactly right as well when you say they're using our own values against us.
	Let's play this next clip.
	The blessed personality of the Holy Prophet who is near and dear to our hearts.
	This is extremely wrong and disparaging because our belief is that there is none like him and none ever will be like him, therefore it's an insult to him to try to depict him and act his role.
	Secondly, the roles of the noble caliphs of Islam being acted out by black people.
	Now this is not only an insult to the caliphs by negatively portraying them, you know, by using black people.
	It's also an insult to the black people, the African people, that they use those people who they perceive as the bodies, in their eyes, they use black people for that role.
	So that's a very negative thing as well and very racist.
	Oh, that's very racist.
	Yeah, I mean, it is quite extraordinary.
	You know, what, the past few years or whatever, You know, one can be hugely insulted.
	I'm insulted when statues come down.
	You know, I'm insulted when, you know, our institutions or the ones that I still think are valuable are, you know, degraded and insulted.
	All of this, you know, you live with it.
	You know, you live with it in a liberal democracy, right?
	And this is the crux of the matter, actually, is that there seems to be no understanding, at least with these protesters, I don't know how widely these views are held amongst the Islamic community.
	I don't think anybody does, actually.
	I doubt very much that these people have spent a lot of time studying the British values you're speaking of.
	But I just find it fascinating.
	It's insulting to portray them as black people, because that's demeaning to the caliph and his sons, but it's also demeaning to the black people because they're being portrayed as villains, but the caliph isn't the villain.
	The rightly guided caliphs are the heroes of the story.
	So his messaging there is very confused, but it implies that they view these people being played as black people as demeaning to them.
	It's almost like they're using almost every bit of unreason.
	Yes, they're absolutely trying.
	So that's something I disavow, obviously.
	And this clip is just perfect, because it shows you the depth of understanding that these people have about this film, about the situation, and about, well, anything that's going on.
	on let's play.
	alayhi wa jba'een.
	Many of us standing here, we don't even know what the movie is about.
	We don't even know what's being shown on the screen inside.
	We heard that somebody is defaming the sahaba ikram r.a.
	alayhi wa jba'een.
	Somebody is trying to defame.
	Nabi sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, you are needed here.
	You left everything They don't even know why they're there.
	Well, also, you know, if we were some nice sort of BBC liberal channel doing this at the moment, what would we be discussing actually?
	We'd be saying, where are the women?
	Wouldn't we?
	Well, that's a great question.
	Where are the women?
	Indeed.
	Yeah, no, I don't know.
	I think that would be Islamophobic to query that.
	So maybe we would just be self-censoring and holding our tongues on that issue.
	But I don't doubt that we would be thinking it very loudly.
	But isn't that just fascinating, though?
	There's just literally hundreds of them have turned up.
	We don't know why we're here.
	We haven't seen the film.
	But we were told someone is defaming the prophet.
	Maybe.
	I mean, who knows?
	You don't know what you're doing.
	You've turned up like an angry mob.
	This is like Pakistani tribal politics that has been imported into Bradford.
	You don't know anything about this.
	Yes.
	No, I think, but also one of the characteristics of many of these kind of things when they come along, I certainly think it was the case with the satanic verses, is that it sort of spread from country to country.
	And it was obviously set up as well.
	But of course, the majority of people protesting probably hadn't read the satanic verses.
	It's sort of not the point.
	It's a moral panic, isn't it?
	That's the thing.
	And this is what we're looking at here, a moral panic by people who literally can't control their own feelings.
	They're not in control of their own feelings.
	So watch this next clip.
	You should be listening to us.
	You are affecting the feelings of one billion Muslims around the entire world.
	You are hurting our feelings.
	You are not taking us into consideration.
	If you don't take us into consideration, at least you should have taken into consideration.
	Those Muslims, the feelings of those Muslims who dare like come and serve you inside there.
	City world is only built and is only going upon the wealth of the Muslims.
	How many non-Muslims do you see going there?
	It is all Muslims.
	It is our wealth.
	It is our time that we are spending there and financially helping this place.
	Therefore, we have a legal right.
	We have a legal right to stand here and to express our hurtful feelings that you have hurt our feelings.
	Well, I mean, he's probably technically right that people do have a right to protest and demonstrate, you know, outside the cinema, as you said earlier.
	But it's absolutely not the point.
	They immediately make, the protesters make the kind of leap that somehow this should not therefore be allowed.
	Yeah, and that's the sum total of his objection.
	What's happened?
	You've hurt our feelings?
	Mm-mm-mm.
	So?
	Don't care.
	Not my problem.
	What has struck me about this particular incident this time, Carl, is the speed with which it's happened.
	Oh, yeah.
	It happened.
	We had some demos.
	We had the fellow who was, I believe, just a manager in Bolton of a cinema coming out and saying it's not going to...
	Be shown, and I'm with you, etc.
	And then Sydney World actually sort of pulled it very, very quickly.
	So, but it's been, I think, characterised by that, but also by, as we said at the beginning, the lack of pushback from anyone.
	It's been nothing.
	The lack of pushback.
	If you can imagine, you know, I mean, I remember when, for example, there was something called Jerry Springer, the opera, and there was some depiction.
	This was 15 years ago now.
	Of Jesus in it.
	And basically a lot of people found it very, very objectionable, but the BBC still showed it, and they sort of felt they were standing up for something.
	You don't see that when it comes to this.
	No, they wouldn't even dare.
	But this chap who we just heard ranting and raving is going to explain to us why he's ranting and raving.
	Let's launch.
	If somebody came and they took my parents, I wouldn't feel like this.
	If somebody came and burned my house, I wouldn't feel like this.
	If somebody come and took my children, Wallahi Lazeem, I would never ever feel like this.
	But coming and attacking the messenger, the messenger of Allah in such a derogatory manner, I can't explain my feelings.
	You will have to look inside my heart and you'll have to see what is going on inside my heart to know what is happening inside my heart.
	Allahu Akbar, words cannot describe it.
	My feelings are all over the place.
	My mind is all over the place.
	How can somebody come and attack the beloved wife of the Prophet?
	He hasn't seen the film.
	But I mean, how can someone come and attack?
	There was a piece of artwork done, again, about 10, 20 years ago, called Piss Christ.
	Now, as it happens, I'm quite agnostic.
	But, you know, it was a crucifix covered in urine.
	You could say that that is an extremely offensive thing.
	I imagine many Christians did find it.
	Yes, but the fact of the matter is it existed.
	It wasn't pulled down.
	You know, it is one of those things that you live with in a country like ours.
	If that guy is sincere, we just heard, because there's a possibility that he's, you know, bigging it up, then there is a lack of understanding there.
	Yeah.
	Oh, absolutely.
	But I mean, notice, I just can't get over this, I can't control my feelings.
	I don't want to say it's womanly, but it's very feminine.
	Very, very feminine from men who otherwise would, I imagine, tout their masculine credentials.
	To sit there and say, I'm not in control of my feelings, I'm about to swoon like a woman.
	Just like, aren't you embarrassed?
	I'd be terribly embarrassed to say something like that in public.
	Well, as I said, I mean, if this were the BBC, that would be probably the headline quote.
	How dare you talk swoon-like woman?
	This is misogyny.
	Well, yes.
	And Islamophobia.
	But anyway, so let's just carry on.
	These are the sorts of people.
	But the thing is, as you were saying, right?
	They will make any kind of artwork that debauches Jesus Christ.
	They don't care about that.
	They don't care about Christians.
	Because underpinning the protests when the Christians are out there with their placards or with their objections, there isn't a sense of intimidation.
	There isn't a sense that, well, actually, if you don't do as we say...
	Someone might get hurt.
	Well, at the Birmingham protest at least.
	Well, let's play this clip and see if we get the same feeling.
	Birmingham will not tolerate the disrespect of our Prophet, peace be upon him, and there will be outcomes from your actions.
	You will have repercussions for your actions.
	We have been trained from birth that we must defend the honour of our Prophet and we will lay our life on the line.
	Is that not a threat of violence?
	That's pretty chilling.
	It's pretty chilling over a film at a cinema that you don't like.
	I mean, a lot of this is like a Nando's in the background or something.
	It's like, mate, where do you think you are?
	What do you think you're doing?
	You're just a public embarrassment.
	I think your point, Carl, about that basically, if it were a Christian thing, the threat of violence wouldn't be taken seriously if indeed there were a threat of violence, which I very much doubt because it never has really been.
	I think on top of that, what I would suggest is that the general cultural and political establishment, they see Christianity as kind of the oppressor religion.
	It's the hegemonic religion.
	Yes.
	So basically that's why, just to widen this a little bit, the mainstream media is often criticized quite rightly for not really covering the persecution of Christians around the world.
	Slightly.
	People just don't know about it, you know, and one of the reasons being is I think it's just not as important to editors, producers, reporters.
	It's just not, it's somehow or other, it is because it's us, if you like, traditionally speaking, that therefore somehow we should almost expect it.
	For some reason, it's not important to say the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Pope or anyone else to speak out about the bombings of Coptic Christians or the eradication of Christians in Iraq and places like this.
	It's just not important to them for some reason.
	Ancient, like Christian sites that are more ancient than anything in Europe are being destroyed in the Middle East and no one cares.
	It's like, right, okay, well, I guess we don't care because...
	Because, anyway, Christianity must be cancelled, like this film was cancelled.
	This is the manager of the Sheffield cinema saying, yes, we've cancelled it.
	Aren't you pleased with me?
	Let's watch.
	As the manager of this cinema, I'm confirming that we've cancelled this film and will not be showing it again.
	Listen, listen!
	We value you all as our customers.
	We're in the heart of this community.
	At a local level, it wasn't our decision to show this film.
	It came from the board.
	We totally agree with what you're saying.
	Thank you sir.
	We are not prepared at this cinema to show this film.
	Allahu Akbar.
	You know it's very alarming to see a clip like that.
	Does the guy actually mean this?
	Or is he just saying what he thinks is kind of going to keep his staff safe or whatever?
	But even so, it's the craven quality.
	It's disgusting, isn't it?
	I mean, notice how he said we're at the heart of this community.
	The other one, the protester said, well, we come and spend our money here.
	This is built on Muslim money.
	And it just goes to show you the demographics of the areas in which these people are protesting.
	Enclave, I think, is a generous way of putting it, because it's not like these people have adopted any kind of British custom.
	They're dressed in, you know, foreign Islamic dress.
	They're chanting Allah Akbar, and they're protesting about a sectarian schism that has come to our shores.
	What a great idea mass immigration was.
	Anyway, so, just to cap this off, Cineworld cancelled all screenings, of course, because they were terrified.
	They said, literally, quote, to ensure the safety of our staff and customers.
	Worrying, that I would say.
	Nothing to talk about here though, I suppose.
	So yes, that was the Bolton Council of Mosques called the film blasphemous and underpinned with sectarian ideology.
	The film's producer is a man called Malik Shlibak, and he says no one should dictate for the British public what they can or cannot watch or discuss, describing the protest as fringe groups.
	It's like, well, I mean, I agree with you, Malik, but the thing is, I'm not sure they're fringe groups.
	Carl, can you tell me, because I don't watch Rawcast News anymore.
	Well, not do I. Oh, you don't?
	Well, as little as possible.
	I just wondered whether this had been covered.
	I know it has in the papers, but...
	Very, very tepidly.
	So, the only thing that I really saw talking about this was James O'Brien, amazingly, on LBC, who called this sunny fragility, which, I mean...
	I mean, yes, James, but they're also...
	they don't care?
	He said, if you really believe in an all-powerful divine being, I'm fairly confident that he or she is going to be supremely relaxed about a film.
	It's like, no, they don't believe that, James.
	They don't believe that.
	They believe that that's blasphemous...
	And actually, they do some pretty terrible things to blasphemers in certain religious Muslim countries around the world.
	They're not like you, who is an atheist, clearly.
	They don't think that way.
	They genuinely have these as a sincere conviction.
	And you can say, well, it just shows how fragile their belief structures are.
	So, yeah, well, I'm sure they'd give a damn while they were doing terrible things to blasphemers, as if they care.
	But the only politician I could find who had made any comment about this at all was Sajid Javid.
	Oh, right.
	One tepid statement on the telephone to Julie Hartley Brewer, saying he is, quote, very concerned.
	We don't have blasphemy laws.
	That would be a dangerous road to go down.
	Saj, you've got massive mobs of Muslim men who are...
	Threatening, in a subtle way, violence over a film based on sectarian conflict within the Islamic world.
	I think we're already there.
	Exactly.
	At this point, this would be a dangerous road to go down.
	The implication all the time is that this is something that might happen in the future.
	It's happening right now.
	You might say, well, what difference does it make?
	But they've got him on.
	But, you know, where is our Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport?
	Where, in fact, for that matter, is Prime Minister?
	I mean, you know, this takes me back rather to two years ago during the BLM thing.
	And how long did it take for Boris Johnson to actually say anything about this?
	Whatever you think of President Macron, he came right out and said, we do not tolerate statues Being torn down in France, they are not coming down.
	It's French history for good or bad, right?
	When you have a cultural onslaught like this going on, you need your central politicians to just reassure people even, to say, I'm on your side.
	You know, I don't agree either.
	But we just don't get this.
	And I think, I don't mean to preempt what we're going to talk about, but I just think that the Tory party, well, it's all kind of like got its head up its ass at the moment because of the leadership thing.
	But at the same time, even if that weren't happening, I just don't think they quite understand the real nature of the cultural answer we have.
	I don't know what the Conservative Party is anymore.
	It just seems to be an empty shell that exists because people don't want to vote for communism.
	What's the purpose?
	I mean, Sajid Javid is a Pakistani Muslim man, so he was allowed to...
	I imagine there was a meeting where Boris was like, well, you're going to have to do it, Sajid.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	You're going to have to do it because you know why.
	Go tell them that's bad.
	And that's it.
	It's like, okay, but can we not have a bit of moral leadership?
	Because, I mean, like, at the end of the day, if this is a widespread opinion in the Muslim community in Britain, they're going to have to learn to knock it off.
	You know, we can't have that.
	And yet, here we are.
	But anyway, this mob is, of course, going off to other cinemas.
	The View cinemas haven't yet cancelled it, as I understand it, but I imagine they will.
	I prepared this yesterday, so it may have updated since then.
	But there we go.
	Anyway, let's move on to the next bit.
	This is all going to be a very depressing podcast.
	I'm so sorry, Peter.
	I can't help myself.
	Actually, I changed the link for this one, John.
	If you can just grab the...
	Oh, sorry.
	Before you...
	I know it's the wrong link.
	But the fact that you do this kind of thing...
	Oh, the epochs?
	Yeah.
	Honestly, Carl.
	I mean, it's so important...
	You know, that you do, you know, your videos on history and discussing people.
	People have got just an insatiable appetite for this, I think.
	Epochs is definitely one of our most popular series as well.
	Even though it wasn't meant to be on, that was it?
	No, no, I was actually going to promote an article I wrote, actually.
	If you're able to get it up, please, John.
	So, anyway...
	So the question I think really is, who is life getting better for?
	The way things are being run, who is benefiting from the current order in Britain?
	I mean, do you feel that your life is getting better year upon year?
	I mean, purely materially, do you mean?
	In any way, shape or form.
	Are you happy with the direction in which the country is going?
	Oh, good Lord.
	What, the country?
	No.
	I mean, you live in the country, right?
	No, no, but the point is that I actually stumbled upon a point.
	I see, you know, my connection to the country is part of my character.
	Hmm.
	Right?
	And so therefore, it's very, very hard, extremely hard, people not to be cast down, not to be seriously cast down.
	When you say it's life getting better, no, obviously things are tough on a material level for people.
	But I'm always interested, you know, with Spectator, for example, at the end of the year, it has this kind of roundup of stuff.
	And it always has the same kind of editorial, which is, despite what everyone's saying, in fact, these are the best times in which ever to live.
	This is because so many people, you know, have been brought out of poverty.
	But this is the problem.
	It's like a domino.
	When I'm talking, I can feel it's like a domino effect because You know, this is the problem with a lot of the rights arguments now, is they see things entirely economically.
	So actually on that level, apart from the fact that we're about to go into recession, but apart from that, it does appear to have got materially better.
	Why in which case are people very, very...
	Unhappy, very, very depressed, and very, very worried.
	And it's because the cultural atmosphere in which you live is just as important, I would say, is more important.
	Yes.
	Actually, far more important.
	And that is in serious trouble in the West.
	And I honestly can't reinforce that enough.
	I remember...
	Before my grandparents died, being a young child, and I would get up at like 6 in the morning, and the only person up in the house would be my nan when we were going to visit.
	And so she would tell me stories about the olden days, and I used to love these.
	But looking back now, one of the things I remember very clearly is how poor they were.
	But with what fondness she describes, like her early married life.
	So she's got, you know, a brood of young children, her husband, on my mum's side of the family, the Welsh, so he was a coal miner in the Rhonda Valleys, and they would come back every day, you know, head to toe in coal, and you didn't know which one was your husband until he walked up the street, you know, with all the miners coming down.
	And he would just give her like the, I don't know, seven shillings or whatever they earned that week, and she'd have to divvy it up and figure out how to spend it all on whatever bills they had.
	Insufferably poor, but terribly happy.
	You know, everything about her life.
	And you could hear the joy in her voice when she was telling me about it.
	And this is one of the reasons I just asked her these questions, because she would become effervescent with the joy of talking about what it was like before I was born, you know, when my parents were kids.
	And it was...
	It was very clear that money can't buy you happiness.
	It's not the root of it.
	What I think your grandmother, respectfully, maybe was drawing on, and I know it was certainly the case with mine, is that they had a structure outside of themselves, a big family, maybe.
	And a community.
	Yep.
	They might have been religious, for example.
	Or they might have been very politically committed, for example, or they might have had a very strong sense of patriotism and local patriotism, all of these things.
	These are the things that have been systematically dismantled over the past, what, 50 years?
	Certainly in my adult lifetime.
	And that is what I believe makes people miserable.
	I also think it's one of the reasons why, you know, one of the reasons why it appears that many people have problems with their mental health.
	It's because they have no sense of direction.
	When I say sense of direction, I don't mean in a kind of corporate sense.
	I mean, no sense of purpose.
	What are you living for?
	Yeah.
	Because my grandmother, you know, despite having very little money, was living for her family, for her friends and neighbours.
	And this is the topic of this particular segment, is who is life getting better for?
	Because the Muslim community in Britain think that life is getting better for them.
	But I don't think that anyone else in Britain would really say that.
	In what sense?
	Do you know, Cole?
	We'll go into it in a minute.
	But before we do, go over to lotuses.com and subscribe, at the cost of a super chat a month, to support us.
	And go and read my new article, which is Five False Assumptions of Liberalism.
	So I've been spending a lot of time looking into the West and the intellectual history of the West and why we may have arrived in this position.
	And I do think that the root of the problem probably is liberalism itself.
	And I hate to say it because I am a classical liberal.
	I do believe in the legal doctrine of liberalism and constitutional rights, but there's no getting around the fact that the intellectual assumptions that have been made by the philosophers who form the liberal canon are wrong.
	They're not truths about human nature.
	Can you give me an example?
	Yes, that we began in a pre-social state of nature from which we came together to form societies.
	That's not true.
	That never happened.
	Even chimps are not in a pre-social state of nature.
	The next one would be that there is such a thing as a universal human.
	As in, there is just an abstract template that exists outside of time and history and culture and space of what a human being is, merely because all humans share certain characteristics.
	There's no universal human.
	I've got, of course, three others.
	I don't want to spoil them all, but there are lots of these.
	Again, the blank slate.
	I'm not going to go on.
	But the point is, a lot of this is what underpins social contract theory to try and arrive back at this falsely assumed theoretical state where we are all free from social obligation.
	And I think that's why we've arrived in this position, and that's why cultures who have come to the West, who essentially don't believe this, are doing very well.
	Ones that are very religious, very family-focused, like the protesters we just saw, they are doing very well, and they think their lives are getting better, whereas everyone else, I think, feels that their lives are getting worse.
	So let's begin with this article from The Times, where they say, the majority of British Muslims say their lives have improved.
	What about everyone else?
	I mean, British Muslims are probably about 5-7% of the population now.
	We'll find out when we get the new census.
	So for 93% of the population, do they think their lives are improving?
	Because we have actually got polls about this, and most of them don't.
	But anyway, this was a Savannah Comres poll of 1,503 British Muslims, and they felt that life was getting better in the UK on 10 out of the 12 measures they were polled in.
	Uh, so they, uh, one, two thirds, uh, of those surveyed said that they felt Muslim participation in society had increased since 2017 with only 8% who felt it had decreased.
	It's like, well, that's important to the British public.
	Is it?
	Is that something I care about?
	Is that something that makes my family's life better?
	Am I thinking?
	Yes.
	Muslim participation in society is what is my child's future is predicated on.
	Is it on my children's future?
	Um, Anyway, 58% said they felt there were more role models for young British Muslims to look up to.
	That's interesting because there's a certain limited number of role models, isn't there?
	So you've got, say, you know, however many hours during the day and however many shows can be broadcast on TV during that day.
	You've got a limited number of channels.
	And so if the percentage of young British role models is increasing, then the percentage of role models for other people necessarily must decrease just because of the limited amount of airtime.
	So that's interesting.
	Yes.
	Who are they sort of referring to with role models, by the way, I wonder?
	Well, I can tell you that as well.
	People like Mo Farah and Riz Ahmed, the people listed in the thing.
	Yeah, Mohamed Salah, Riyad Mahrez, Premier League footballers, all of these sort of people.
	Again, Premier League footballers.
	Like, there's a very limited number of them.
	So to get Muslim representation in this means that you have to have non-Muslim representation removed.
	So I think this is very interesting.
	But also, doesn't it show...
	It's like maybe cognitive dissonance here or something.
	But if the majority now feel life is better, the people protesting about the film presumably don't think, actually...
	That life must be getting better because they have to deal with these attacks in their...
	So does that mean that the people outside the cinemas are not representative or are Islamist or radical?
	What does it mean?
	I don't know.
	I don't even know if they would say life isn't getting better when they get to cancel films they don't like.
	I would consider that to be an expression of my community's political power and I would say that would make me feel like I was doing well in this country.
	But anyway...
	So, yes, 58% said there were more role models for young British Muslims to look up to.
	Again, what about the rest of the country?
	That must mean, necessarily, that there are fewer role models for other British people to look up to, compared with only 14% who thought there were fewer.
	Among young Muslims, 69% of 18 to 24-year-olds agreed that there were Muslim role models in the UK that inspired them.
	Are there any Muslims anywhere else in the world that they could be inspired by?
	But the point surely is, you know, this is all very kind of divisive in the sense of why can't they be inspired generally, you know?
	What is it about other role models that doesn't inspire?
	Yes, exactly.
	Do their role models have to be Muslim?
	It's a bit like me saying, oh, I've got so many Christian role models to look at.
	You know, this goes against the whole idea of a nation.
	Yes.
	It goes against all of the liberal assumptions that there is a universal human type.
	It turns out that the cultural baggage that we inherit actually informs what we view ourselves as, what we view our future as, and what we look up to.
	It isn't just that there are universal people.
	And so the assumption that Tony Blair was operating on, bringing all of these people in, well, they're just like us.
	No, they're not just like us.
	You know, there's no one just like us.
	Only we are just like us.
	Even the French and Germans aren't just like us.
	This is just a false assumption, and this is the result of it.
	And these people will just say, well, I mean, I feel that we are better represented, and now that inspires me, and I think things are getting better, because the cultural weighting of the scales is being done in our favor, artificially.
	I think it's also, though, as well, it is that they would automatically, by people who are doing polls, given that we're now living in this era of identity politics, they will just automatically ask them for Islamic role models, just as, like, they would ask gay people for gay role models, or all of that.
	I mean, you know, it's very, actually, it's slightly condescending, and it's also slightly juvenile.
	You know, why can't, you know, why can't Why can't the role model be, I don't know, the great writer or the great scientist?
	Yeah, it's not about accomplishment.
	It's not.
	It's just the mere fact of what you are.
	Obviously, it is in the case of Moe, you know, he accomplished something very particular.
	But I mean, essentially, it's like just the existence of something is enough.
	And this is the case throughout the whole of identity politics now.
	Your point about the universal person, do you therefore, would you take that to mean as well, the idea of universal rights?
	I mean, I've always never quite understood this.
	I don't know whether you once believed, you say you were a classical liberal, whether you once believed.
	I would still call myself classical liberal because like, Morally, I think that is the correct way to do things.
	Classical liberalism is the best way to do things.
	You know, the most morally correct.
	But the question of, well, what are human rights tethered in is indeed the big question.
	And that's another problem with liberalism is that it used to be that it was tethered in the rights of Englishmen.
	This is always what it was.
	And then when the French tried to adopt this, well, they had to exchange it for civil rights.
	But civil rights means your rights are tethered in government fiat, which, and the American Republicans keep saying, oh, you're making the state God.
	It's like, well, in a very literal way, actually, because the rights of Englishmen were always underpinned by God.
	And, you know, as an agnostic, as an atheist, or, you know, I don't care about religion, but like, It's one of those things where we've got to admit that this is unfounded.
	And this is how you end up with Jeremy Corbyn saying broadband is a human right.
	I know.
	I mean, I think you referred to one point earlier.
	David Starkey gave a lecture recently at our, we had a conference.
	Believe in Britain and the West.
	I'm not promoting it because it's already happened.
	But he sort of said there is no such thing as, you know, this universal set of rights.
	Right not to be insulted.
	You know, the right to broadband.
	But even though it's sort of the very classic ones that are actually enshrined in the United Nations, the right to an education.
	Right to property.
	You know, this is weird in a way.
	Well, exactly.
	Where does this come from?
	And it has to come from compulsion.
	If you've got a right to food, someone has to grow that food.
	And that means that your, I mean, literally, your human rights, the intrinsic, which used to be the intrinsic properties of you, are contingent on other people, which never used to be the case.
	But you see, this is why, you know, you say, you know, I said I was agnostic, you said you're atheist, don't really care much about religion.
	I have been preoccupied a lot by it lately.
	And this is one of the reasons, actually, because the sense of kind of moral obligation I might feel I have, and I say that as opposed to right, you are looking and thinking, where does this derive from?
	It can't just be the Magna Carta.
	It can't just be, you know, the Bill of Rights.
	Where does it at?
	It's something that's actually been, it's almost forced its way into my head.
	You know, I've been thinking a lot about this.
	I believe that I can actually formulate an answer to that, but unfortunately, I don't think we have time in this podcast.
	But I would love to have a talk to you about it, because it's something that I've been thinking about a lot as well.
	But we'll have to come back to it.
	That is interesting, because so many people are.
	It seems to be the unspoken question of our time.
	It's like, well, hang on a second.
	What is all of this built on?
	Because it can't just be this abstract doctrine from the French Revolution, because A, we're not French, and it seems to be bull.
	So...
	Well, there's no getting around.
	That's when the rot set in.
	Yeah, exactly.
	That's when the rot set in.
	But we'll have to talk about it in a time.
	I just wanted to go through this bit.
	So, yeah, when asked whether businesses were creating more products and services tailored for Muslim customers, 59% agreed.
	Wow.
	53% agreed that acceptance of Muslims in the UK has increased over the past five years.
	46% said they felt there was better access to higher paying jobs.
	And when asked about opportunities for Muslims to be successful in the UK, 55% said they've been an improvement.
	When asked about life overall, 53% said they felt things had improved over the past five years, compared to 19% who felt things were getting worse.
	Isn't that interesting?
	It's interesting, and also the point as well is that your average lefty will hate that fact.
	Yes, they will.
	Because they want to keep people with a sense of grievance and victimhood.
	Yes, but the question is, who is this coming at the expense of?
	And I would suggest that it's everyone else.
	Most people are not actually happy with the way the country is going.
	We actually know this because they've been surveyed on this.
	We can go to the next one.
	In 2015, most people in Britain thought that multiculturalism was making the country worse and not better.
	56% viewed Islam as a threat to Western liberal democracy, not Islamic extremism, Islam itself.
	But the Muslims are like, yeah, so everything's been getting great since this has been done.
	So it shows you in the direction in which the cultural wind is blowing, doesn't it?
	But do more Britons now, do less, fewer Britons think multiculturalism has made the country worse?
	I mean, I doubt, I think it's probably the same amount.
	I doubt that.
	Yeah, it's probably very simple.
	This is the most recent one I could find on that specific question.
	But when you go to the 2019 question from the Migration Observatory at Oxford, if we can go to the next one, John, this was a 2019 survey and 44% of people wanted less immigration, 23% wanted more, and 39% wanted it to stay the same as it is.
	Now, in 2019, immigration was actually lower than it is now.
	I'm sure you're aware that the Conservative government last year for some reason let in 1.16 million new migrants.
	In 2019, it was probably around 600,000.
	But I think those statistics that you point out, I think that they just go against all the statistics I've seen.
	And when it comes to people wanting immigration to be curbed, and indeed, or drastically curbed, it comes out, and the Migration Watch always put it at about 66%.
	Yeah, this 2019 one seems to be the result of a few years long campaign about the NHS. Right.
	Because we've looked at other data that I didn't get up for this one.
	But basically the NHS seems to be the linchpin of immigration because people have been persuaded that without immigration the NHS will collapse.
	Well, they've been persuaded as well that without immigration the country will collapse.
	Yes, which is nonsense.
	Also what's happened is that a narrative has been put in place, a retrospective one, which is that somehow Britain simply would not...
	Be here if it were not for migration.
	And these things are just, these are simply historically not true.
	You know, Britain has had, actually over the thousand years, waves of migration, but actually quite limited ones.
	Very small.
	Very small.
	And, you know, our friends, the Huguenots, who were always brought up.
	I think it was something like, as much as you could tell, about 50 to 60,000 Huguenots from a culturally very similar country.
	Over a period of 100 years.
	What we're seeing now, and I have to say, to me it is quite extraordinary that there's not more comment now about this.
	Is just unprecedented.
	This is a population movement.
	This isn't just migration.
	It's a number of people the size of the city of Birmingham coming to live here every year now.
	It's unbelievable.
	And I think that, you know, people would have a very strong justification for feeling, people who voted for Brexit, a strong sense of betrayal that actually, as you say, 1.1, sorry, 1.6 or whatever, A million people.
	I think it was issued with visas, if I remember.
	So that's not including illegal immigration or people who have decided to extend their visas, in fact.
	Up to 1997.
	Immigration on the whole was about 50,000 net.
	And it wasn't much of an issue.
	I mean, it was for the far right and everything.
	It wasn't much of an issue.
	I personally do not know anyone who is anti-migration in principle like that.
	This is not the same thing.
	From Blair onwards, it leapt.
	From 50 to 150, it's been going up.
	Do you remember there was a period about 10 years ago when people said, we must not let this be the new normal?
	Well, you know, hello.
	I mean, it's now, you're talking about massive amounts of people.
	I remember when the Conservative Party in 2019 said they were going to, quote, reduce overall immigration.
	And in fact, it was 50% more than it was last year.
	And the Labour Party, I think at most, they ended up letting in something like 500,000 a year, but then you had a net outflow.
	So it ended up being about 300,000 a year.
	The Labour Party, believe it or not, would never have actually allowed a million.
	They would have understood that would have been electoral suicide.
	And yet, for some reason, the Conservatives don't care.
	It's unbelievable.
	I think they don't care.
	I also think there's a fair amount of fear there that they are just terrified of being called racist.
	Who, therefore, are they listening to?
	Who are they listening to?
	Are they listening to people they have dinner parties with?
	I mean, you know, why the resistance to actually...
	Because all you need is will, you know?
	You just need will.
	People cannot understand whether it's illegal migration from Calais or France or whatever, or whether across the channel or whether and I would say far more importantly it is the sheer scale of legal migration people can't understand why no one seems to be doing anything about this and the level of frustration about it I think it's huge I think it's much greater than those poll figures actually suggested and you have to sort of say to yourself wait a minute There's no will to do,
	because if they want to do something, they can do it.
	What have we just lived through for two years?
	I mean, they've got all the power in the world.
	Yes.
	They literally have no limit.
	Over the past two years, some of the measures we never thought we would ever see came very easily, very easily.
	So, in fact, when there is the will to do something, they can do it.
	And it's such a small thing as well, because all you have to do is say, right, you have a bureaucracy that the applicants are interfacing with.
	They say, I'll submit this form.
	Could I have a visa, please?
	And you say, we're sorry, we're not giving out visas at this time.
	That's all you have to do.
	Like, they're acting as if there would be some terrible catastrophe.
	It's like, no, you just have to say, sorry, we're not taking applications.
	Right.
	I think for me, what it means is just a total disregard for the people here in Britain that you have to educate, that you have to train.
	I think disregard is far too soft.
	It's contempt.
	But sorry, we have to move on.
	So if you go to the Pew Research link that I've got there.
	This is fascinating.
	This is from 2020.
	And these are the people who feel that globalization is leaving them behind.
	Now, I would say that the Muslim occupants of Britain are a consequence of globalization.
	Tony Blair began and the conservative stories have carried on.
	And this is fascinating.
	People who feel left behind by globalism.
	These are the people who aren't immigrants.
	They didn't come to another land.
	I'm just going to read you a couple of quotes here, right?
	Participants see and feel globalization changing what it means to be British or American because of the flow of people, cultures, and ideas.
	Regardless of political orientation, most focus groups began the discussion of what it means to be British or American by emphasizing multiculturalism and tolerance.
	That's interesting, isn't it?
	They begin, oh, well, we should be multicultural and tolerant.
	They also overwhelmingly highlighted the benefits of globalization in terms of diversity and options available in their country.
	Available goods, cuisines, cultural offerings and the like.
	One man who voted leave in Brexit highlighted his general disapproval of immigration, but he noted that he likes his curries, referencing the abundant Indian and Pakistani food offerings.
	So these people are just basically kind of brainwashed?
	So yeah, well, I mean, because what we're talking about here is people who don't want mass immigration, but can't understand that they should actually be able to say that, right?
	So they say, particularly those in Leave voting, like, political blocs and Republicans in America, the limits of this comfort and globalization of multiculturalism came when there was a corresponding sense that these cultures were changing British or American culture, or immigrants and foreigners were benefiting at the expense of locals.
	Hmm.
	And I think that ties very interestingly into the Muslims in this country thinking, well, things are getting better for me, and the natives saying, well, things are coming at our expense.
	The thing is, though, the whole idea, you used to hear this phrase during the referendum campaign, you know, and you were part of that, weren't you?
	I was.
	Left behind, the communities left behind on the coast, various market towns, etc., cities.
	And here we are, You know, it makes me so angry, actually.
	Here we are in 2022, and virtually nothing has been done.
	This kind of, this sort of sense of, you know, oh, we're going to level up.
	This is like the big society of Cameron and everything.
	It doesn't really mean anything.
	I mean, you know, the fact is, is that...
	People voted for this government in our record numbers.
	We know the Red Wall fell and they have been entirely ignored.
	And those are many of the people who would say that they have been left behind.
	They certainly have been culturally left behind, if not even economically.
	Well, let me give you a quote from one woman in Birmingham when they did this.
	She says, quote, Our Britishness is being diluted because of all the other cultures coming in here.
	If there was a fair ratio of people that the country could cope with and it wasn't draining all the resources, then it's fine, as you were saying.
	I think it's nice to experience other cultures and share, but now it's like that blend has taken away the Britishness.
	So literally, that's how they felt...
	Well, yes, I mean, I think, you know, for many people who supported mass migration going way back to the 1960s, it wasn't because they really cared about migrants.
	It wasn't that.
	It was just anything that really was going to hit a sense of the nation.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	And, you know, that is why, because, it's interesting, if you are concerned about it, if you think something should be done about the scale of migration, you are always on the media, and this was my experience definitely when I was in UKIP and I was on mainstream media a lot, you have to account for your views, right?
	But you would be up against people from the pro-migration lobby who were never asked to account for their views, ever.
	But in fact, if you actually look behind, most of them were open borders people who just wanted Britain to have no borders.
	This was Peter Hitchens' point, wasn't it?
	A lot of them didn't do it because of the love of any of the things they claimed.
	It's because they hated Britain.
	Yes.
	And I think that that actually, without going off into a different era, that accounts for so much, not just migration, but so much of our post-war history.
	I mean, listen to this.
	This one older white leave voting woman, an English woman in London, said that she finds it awful to get onto the tube and hear people speaking in myriad languages, describing it as a very hostile environment for her.
	In Birmingham, another Leave voting woman told an extended story about her experience giving birth in hospital and having no midwives who spoke English, which made her feel like a minority and caused her to feel unsafe and uncared for in her own country.
	How is that justifiable?
	No, it's not.
	I think the kind of upset and anger people feel in that situation, I would say...
	They're not being unreasonable in the sense that they know they are not allowed to say anything.
	They didn't go anywhere, though.
	That's the problem.
	No, but they are not allowed to make their feelings that they just went to, you know, heard or felt.
	They will be punished or they will be told that they are racist.
	Where will this woman be represented on the BBC? Never.
	Well, I think that you just don't see that anymore.
	Do you ever see even Vox pops on BBC News?
	I don't know.
	Even under the Conservatives, it's very curated.
	And so you had to, you know, Pew had to go and interview people on the street saying, okay, well, tell us how you feel, because you can't find it anywhere else.
	But the point is, she feels like a minority in her own country.
	She hasn't left Birmingham.
	She's lived there her whole life.
	Mm-hmm.
	People have invaded her culture and have been, you know, thankfully to Tony Blair, they've been allowed to en masse come and change the culture.
	And so now she's like, you know, I can't even give birth and understand what the nurse is saying.
	This is an awful thing to have happened to her.
	But thank God the Muslim population in this country think things are getting better.
	Anyway, let's move on to the final segment, which is we're going to discuss the culturally collapsing West.
	Because if there's one thing we may as well talk about, it's how things are just embarrassing in the public eye at the moment.
	I mean, you said you didn't watch the news or discussion shows, and I don't blame you.
	Because whenever you do, it's just gross and embarrassing.
	But before we start, if you'd like to support us, go to theloses.com, sign up, and you can watch our premium analysis of Matt Walsh's documentary film, What is a Woman?
	Ooh, I'd love to see.
	Is it good?
	It's very good.
	And so I actually had to sign up to The Daily Wire to be able to watch this, and that's why I've done an analysis of it.
	But Harry and I go through the very revealing responses that the people Matt Walsh is interviewing provide him.
	Because, Matt, when you're having a one-on-one conversation, it's difficult to give, like, a second-order analysis of what's being said in the moment, because often he didn't know what was going to be said.
	And so, like, they'd say something, you could see him be like, wow, that's crazy.
	And so what we've had the time to do, thankfully, is sit there, go through it, and be like, right, this is what she's saying.
	One of the most interesting ones was when one of the women said to him, well, Matt Walsh was saying, well, look, if a chicken lays an egg, that's a female chicken.
	I don't need to know what the chicken identifies as.
	And she literally says, well, no, you do need to know how the chicken self-identifies.
	Right.
	Isn't that absurd to be able to call it a female chicken, right?
	But then you can see the level of reality that they think truth operates on.
	It operates purely in our own heads.
	There is no objective reality.
	So you can see the locus of importance to these people is within our own opinions alone.
	There's nothing objective or anything like that.
	And so, anyway, there's a lot more to it, obviously, but it's a very good video.
	I think you'll appreciate the analysis.
	Anyway, let's talk about J.K. Rowling very briefly.
	What's she going to have done now?
	She retweeted a...
	In fact, she didn't even do it, actually.
	But one of the Twitter accounts for Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, which is a play that she's written, promoted Pride Month with the Pride flag.
	And the trans rights activists were very angry about this.
	Well, in terms of Pride Month, why is there a Pride Month now?
	I mean, for God's sake, you know, what does this even mean anymore?
	But, but, so what is it she actually said?
	She didn't actually say anything, but because this is attached to her name, all of these people were Furious.
	Absolutely.
	You can scroll down a bit.
	You can see the tweet.
	And you can see how just angry all of these people are.
	There we go.
	So that was...
	And you can say, oh no, you're using our flag, but you're the Harry Potter franchise?
	And J.K. Rowling doesn't think that someone who's born male is a woman, and therefore everyone's furious about it.
	It's...
	Just small, pathetic things, but this goes to show you where the locus of...
	Again, the locus of our civilization is in this absolute ridiculous nonsense that happens on things like this, whereas we've got real problems up and down the country, but no one cares.
	Oh, I think a lot of people...
	Well, okay, no one in the positions of authority.
	Yeah, no, sorry, I'm not trying to pick you up on anything.
	No, look, I... When you...
	I look at this two ways.
	On the one hand, from two different angles, on the one hand, you've got your whole, as you say, this whole chicken, you know, self-identifying chicken.
	This is pure Alice in Wonderland, right?
	It is madness.
	It is a form of...
	Who was it said?
	Those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad.
	You would know that being a classical historian.
	Someone we're not allowed to talk about, I believe.
	But basically...
	On the one hand, you've got your good old friend postmodernism, 1960s, where truth is what she wanted to be, all of that, right?
	That's filtered down finally to much lesser brains.
	Not that they were even great brains, actually.
	I think we're discovering that.
	But I firmly believe this, is that the people who push this kind of stuff, whether it is the gender argument, all of these woke arguments, the woke ideology, People on, if you like, my side of the argument, often they try to reason, they argue, say, how can you agree with that and not that?
	You know, that's hypocritical.
	And they get worked up.
	I think it's better to understand that these people actually just want to strike at the heart of everything.
	Every received tradition, right down to actually how you perceive yourself.
	And if you can no longer even say with certainty or even without embarrassment what sex you are, that you believe in sex, then they have sort of won or they are, if you like, really showing success, I would say.
	Yeah.
	And I think that the point behind it is you've got to look at the motive.
	And I would say that whether it's the rewriting of our history, whether it's the 1619 project in America, whether it is gender ideology, this is a form of...
	It's a cultural attack.
	It's an attack which is broadly on the West.
	And this is why it's particularly strong in anglospheric countries like ours, particularly in America, which has been Heartbreaking, actually, for me to watch, because I've always adored America, and it's had a huge impact on me.
	But it's obviously all the stuff that Douglas Murray has talked about in The War on the West.
	This is a specifically culturally curated attack on the English-speaking world as well.
	Yeah, I mean, exactly.
	It is entirely to completely sort of try to destroy your sense of what you are, right down to your actual self.
	And so that is what is behind this.
	I would say, of course, people look and think, well, actually, isn't this like the Roman Empire and this kind of craziness?
	Yeah.
	I have more, far more hope actually.
	I mean I want people, I don't want people to despair, simply because two things, one very local and one not.
	We had Brexit, we left the EU. If you had said, when people say how do we get off, how's it going to change?
	If you had said 10 years, even 10 years ago, 2012, that we would not be within the EU anymore, technically, you know, then basically, they would have thought you were in our case.
	I mean, really, people did think you were kind of crazy.
	Similarly, I grew up in the 1970s, which is having a bit of a moment at the moment, mainly because of the Jubilee and the various strikes and everything.
	We were the sick man of Europe, but also people thought we were seriously finished, right?
	Just finished.
	Absolutely gone as a country.
	And whatever you think of her, and let's go on, that's for another time, by within 10 years, that had entirely changed.
	So...
	I don't have any hard feelings for Thatcher at all.
	Well, no, no, because some people are more equivocal about it, shall we say.
	But whatever it might be, is that things do change.
	Things come along.
	Things do change.
	Thatcher came along.
	Okay, you might not agree with all of our economic policies, but the state of Britain in 1989 was not the same as 1979.
	Similarly with Britain.
	These things change.
	As Melanie Phillips once said, the 18th century became the extraordinary buttoned-up 19th century.
	How can you go from a period of relative looseness to suddenly this bourgeois kind of uptightness?
	But somehow it sort of...
	It happened.
	So I think that...
	You know, we have, however, at the same time, I'll just give one plug if I may.
	The NCF, New Culture Forum, is making a series called The West.
	It's a six-part series.
	We're filming it at the moment.
	It's going to be out later.
	The point being, Carl, it's a bit like you do here.
	Too many people don't know what it is that they actually are meant to be fighting for.
	They do not know, and it's not their fault.
	They haven't been told.
	All they've been told are negative things.
	So we think that what we've got to do is say, look, this is how it came to pass, and basically this is why it is a wonderful thing, and this is why we have to defend it.
	Well, unfortunately, you're not going to find many defenders in, say, the Welsh Assembly.
	Moving on, just to the next thing that just embarrasses everyone.
	So the Welsh Assembly, Mark Drakeford's the premier there, is trans women and women.
	So the very progressive position.
	He was widely applauded by trans activists because of this.
	He doesn't care that this is damaging women's sports.
	This was one of the Tories in the Welsh Assembly said, you know, we know the huge benefits that sports can offer, but we're a bit worried about erasure of...
	Women in sport because of trans athletes?
	How do you feel?
	And he was just like, well, trans women are women, what now?
	It's like, really?
	Okay.
	Then women's sports are over.
	All right, okay.
	Don't worry about that.
	With this, I mean, I would say that the one thing that worries me is that more women don't protest about it.
	I know that some do.
	A fair number are, actually, nowadays.
	But are women in general aware enough of what is actually happening?
	I should hope so because in one of the things in Matt Walsh's documentary that's very good is he interviews some of the ladies who are defeated by the transgender athletes and say, okay, how does this make you feel?
	And they're like, well, it makes it rather pointless for me to have done any training whatsoever because physically I don't have the bone structure, the breadth, the length of muscle to be able to compete.
	And what was the Leah Thomas, I think it was, Thompson, the swimmer, And you saw the picture of the girls jumping into the pool.
	And then Leah is just almost, you know, horizontal.
	Absolutely.
	And you can see the power differential there.
	And it's like, look, there's no amount of training that will allow those girls to beat his record or her record.
	And so it's very demoralizing for the female athletes.
	And I can completely understand because, I mean, it's literally like Physically impossible for them to reach the sort of standards these men are capable of.
	And so why is that?
	That's not fair, is it?
	But of course, Mark Drakeford thinks so.
	Did you see the Pride 50p that our country is now enjoying?
	No.
	Would you like to see it?
	Isn't that just disgusting?
	Isn't that just the most disgusting thing you've ever seen?
	Like, not only is it, like, I mean, the LGBT, at some point, I'll have to sit down and explain to you how we know this is a communist assault on our culture.
	It's openly, openly communist assault.
	I'll explain to you in detail one day, if you Because I've had to go through and read all of these papers and trace the genealogy of this.
	But notice how they've got the transgender, like, chevron, and then racial chevron, as if black and brown people can't be gay or transgender like everyone else.
	They have to be something different.
	So this is a segregationist coin.
	You don't get to have the gay people or the trans people or the black people to stand together.
	They've got to stand apart.
	That's what the UK is currently celebrating.
	I mean, I think, you know, it's just like in schools, you get the rainbow staircases.
	And obviously, where I used to live in Woolwich, in London, we had the, what do you call it, crossings, you know, road crossings.
	You know, for goodness sake, what I find extraordinary about this is that at the time when there has never been less, less discrimination, I mean, not just even no discrimination, but positive celebration.
	It is expanding and expanding, you know, and this is interesting, actually, because it requires a pretty concerted effort to do this.
	As you say, you're talking about the coinage.
	I mean, you know, and yet, at the very time, I'd say the same with racism, when there has never been less, actually, in countries like Britain.
	And yet somehow all of this is being pushed as though we are facing a particular crisis on this front.
	It's absurd.
	It's utterly absurd.
	It's also very concocted.
	But anyway, let's move on to the next one.
	Norwich FC got pride month support.
	They actually got a backlash for this.
	I've actually got a few links at the end of this segment, John, that I forgot to tell you about.
	So, uh, yeah, you might not pull those up in a minute, but, um, this, this was hilarious cause Norwich FC thought, Oh, we'll be very trans and pride inclusive.
	And they ended up getting chewed out because they included a bunch of words that weren't actually offensive, like twink.
	Twink.
	On there, yeah, that's not offensive.
	A new homophobic slur has apparently dropped twink.
	You know, Carl, I'm gay.
	For goodness sake, twink's been...
	Yes.
	Everyday language.
	Norwich FC didn't realize this.
	And so what they've created here is a wall of slurs that gay people have been called in order to try and shame people for using it.
	Like, you kick like a girl, you're a dyke, you're a fairy, you're a twink, whatever.
	And it's like, right, okay.
	I can see why you did that, but that got a massive backlash against Pride Canaries, a Norwich City FC's LGBTQ plus fan group, who said, well, hang on a second, you've created, you've platformed offensive language against the gay community here.
	Why did you do that?
	And so in their attempt to be good, they have been beaten with the homophobic stick.
	So there's no winning, and that's the point.
	But the whole point of this is, look, there's just this general collapse of our culture into this nonsense.
	It's just everywhere, and there's nowhere else to go.
	Like, Texas is thinking, well, maybe we should ban child drag shows?
	It's like, maybe?
	Maybe.
	Maybe.
	It's a proposition.
	This is like small kids being taken to drag shows.
	Yes.
	Small kids being taken to sexualized adult shows.
	And one Texas lawmaker is like, maybe that shouldn't be allowed, guys.
	So yeah, you think?
	I mean, it's just a small thing, isn't it?
	I would say that most people would agree with them not being taken.
	I can't believe it's not already illegal.
	How is it different to taking them to any other adult venue?
	Where, you know, someone's doing something...
	I mean, you can't tell me there's not...
	This is hopelessly confusing to kids.
	Oh, unbelievable.
	You know, it is just...
	There was a particular...
	You must have covered it, not drag, but there was a kind of...
	Happy, clappy sex education show that actually finally bit the dust.
	It was insane.
	Yes, it was Arts Council funded.
	Of course it was.
	And it was a big thing on Twitter.
	And it was basically, it actually had full frontal nudity in it.
	Ah, yes.
	You know?
	Yes.
	And actually, there was such outrage that in fact it was, it didn't go ahead in there.
	Yeah, but there's plenty of this and thankfully, you know, Texas is leading the way thinking about preventing children from being debauched by drag queens.
	The next just sign of the times is Ben& Jerry's coming out and telling us that actually maybe we need to interfere with the UK government's plan to process refugees in Rwanda.
	Ben& Jerry's, the ice cream manufacturer, Listen up, folks.
	We need to talk about the ugly Rwanda plan and what this means.
	Well, how is it your business to start with?
	But if we go down to the last tweet in this thread, John, you can see that what they've done is tried to agitate people against the UK government.
	They say, it doesn't need to be this way.
	There are simple steps the Gov could take right now to enable people to rebuild their lives in safety.
	It's not too late to stand with refugees and fight against these inhumane plans.
	Check out this thread from whoever this is, JCWI. To take action now.
	So, right, so they're actively calling on people to go and protest against government policy in the United Kingdom.
	The thing is, though, Isikar, about this, is that people have got some power in the situation, actually.
	They could actually, they should boycott, they should just not buy their ice cream.
	I mean, you know, I know that side people say, oh, that's not enough.
	Well, actually, it can be.
	It can be, yeah.
	Because Gillette found out the hard way.
	Yeah.
	When they did that famous ad, which basically was suggesting that all men were just barbarian...
	Predators.
	Yes, predators.
	And their share price dropped hugely because people just said, actually, you know what?
	If you think that about us and we're your customers, bye-bye.
	Oh, yeah.
	And they change Sharpish.
	It can therefore work.
	So I would say that about Ben and Jerry's, all these other corporations, I mean, they're so, you know, disingenuous, you know, it's window dressing mostly for them.
	Unfortunately, it's not window dressing for Ben and Jerry's.
	Ben and Jerry's are a famously progressive company.
	Oh, they were a couple of hippies, weren't they?
	They were.
	But I love this...
	Well, I don't love it, I hate it, but how dare they think they should be the ones trying to literally organise activists to prevent the deportation of illegal immigrants?
	It's disgusting.
	This is, again, another cultural fixture.
	Let's talk about Doctor Who.
	Did you see who the new Doctor Who was?
	I don't...
	Is that gay...
	Nookti Gatwa.
	Right.
	Don't know who he is.
	Apparently he's Scottish.
	Didn't know that.
	But he's most known for his role in Netflix's series Sex Education, where his character is exuberant, sassy, and loyal to the main character, which is fascinating.
	So that's the new Doctor Who.
	Should we listen to one of the old Doctor Whos, see what they think?
	This is Christopher Eccleston, who says that he's over.
	Straight male actors like me are pariahs.
	Well, you used to be Doctor Who, mate.
	Yes, I saw this, actually.
	The thing is, it was a bit confused.
	He seems to be saying in that interview that, and it's quite right that we are?
	That's exactly what he says.
	He says, quote, quite rightly, I'm a dinosaur now.
	I'm white, I'm middle-aged, I'm male, and I'm straight.
	We're all seen through the lens of Harvey Weinstein.
	Well, no, we're not.
	I shouldn't think so.
	And also, what kind of mentality is actually going to say that about yourself?
	Exactly.
	I mean, actually going to say, and quite right, that we are, you know, basically over.
	I mean, he says, I can feel the opportunity shrinking, and they should do.
	Self-hating.
	It is absolutely self-hatred.
	Who has done this to you?
	Why is it right that you, as a white man, should suffer?
	Who has done this to you?
	We all know the basic targets of woke ideology and cultural onslaught.
	But to actually sort of say, yes, you know, and I'm in favour.
	Yes, and I'm favourite, and I am actually the problem, you know.
	No, you're not.
	And don't be such a narcissist, actually.
	Yeah, that's a great point.
	You credit yourself far too much there, Christopher, I'm afraid.
	But anyway, I mean, I can't believe you would see someone like, yeah, well, you know, I'm actually happy my career's dying because I was born in the wrong body, is basically what he's saying there.
	But I mean, this is just our culture, dying in front of our eyes, you know, with the debauching children.
	But at least we've got a culture to replace it.
	Are you familiar with drill?
	Drill?
	Now, I don't know any drill.
	Sorry about this one.
	Don't worry, I don't know any.
	I don't know any drill music.
	Do they actually have songs?
	I don't know.
	I only ever hear about drill musicians.
	When they get arrested for threatening the police.
	Isn't it an aggressive form of rats?
	Very aggressive.
	Very aggressive.
	Okay.
	It's just one of those things where it's like, okay, this is interesting.
	For some reason, they were a recording studio, and there was a shooting in Woolwich, and then they threatened the police with the guns.
	It's like, right, so we're probably going to have to start arming up cops.
	That's a nice term for British culture, isn't it?
	That's what we want, isn't it?
	Armed police.
	Very nice.
	And when did this actually...
	this happened quite recently, right?
	Yeah, this happened yesterday.
	So, what's going on elsewhere in the West?
	Well, the mad tyrants in the EU. I'm sure you've seen this.
	Desperate to get rid of the veto power of the member states of the European Union.
	So, European super-state.
	Unaccountable, unelected, and unstoppable.
	Glad we got out of that at least.
	I think though, actually, I've always thought this, that basically Europe is, EU is one of the things, one of those events I mentioned earlier, where it actually collapses of its own accord.
	Oh, I think so too.
	You know, I mean, that was, I remember when we were campaigning, we, most of us at the time, honestly, did not think we were going to win.
	No.
	But I remember thinking, well, look, the one thing is that this will implode.
	I'd be surprised if it's still around in 10 years.
	Well, I still think that, actually.
	You know, I think that it's sort of its irrelevance is becoming clearer and clearer.
	Yeah.
	I mean, COVID did a great job of showing that the EU is not going to be fit for purpose.
	But the final thing, again, no particular rhyme or reason, but it's just the general direction of the West.
	You've got, like, Pete did have a link for me, but he didn't send me in time for the podcast.
	But apparently, the average child now, when they reach the age of 18, they've seen something like 100,000 porn images.
	Really?
	Yes.
	And you get celebrities like this one, Billy Elish, saying, well, look, when I was a child, porn destroyed my brain.
	She says, as a woman, I think porn is a disgrace.
	I used to watch a lot of porn, to be honest.
	I started watching porn when I was 11.
	I didn't understand why it was a bad thing.
	I thought it was how you learn to have sex.
	I was an advocate.
	I thought I'd be one of the guys and talk about it and thought I was cool for not having a problem with it.
	I think it really destroyed my brain and I felt incredibly devastated I was exposed to so much porn.
	Well, how did you get the porn?
	Well, through your phone.
	Yeah, did she say, actually, that she thought it was a good thing that she stood up for it?
	Was she saying that?
	She thought she was cool for not having a problem with it.
	It hasn't destroyed her brain, actually.
	If she can think like this, maybe not.
	But at the same time, I think that the effect it's all had, for example, on what people expect of their personal relations and indeed of sex now has actually had a very distorting effect.
	But the thing is, I remember, you know, God, When I was 12, I still didn't know.
	You know, when I was 12, it was like 1973, we didn't know sort of what various things were sexually.
	You know, maybe I was a bit, you know, a bit behind the times even then.
	I don't think so.
	Whereas now, by then, kids have seen actually seriously hardcore images.
	Oh, yes.
	Oh, yes.
	Really, really extreme things.
	This is the one, children exposed to shocking number of naked images, experts are warning.
	And it's like, so have we got the number in there?
	Because I, oh, 10,000 naked images, sorry, not 100,000.
	That's still a lot.
	But Carl, how do you, with your, you've got three children?
	I have three children.
	How do you deal with this with your kids?
	I don't let them have mobile phones.
	Simple as that.
	My 12-year-old daughter has a mobile phone and she regularly loses it for just logging on something like TikTok.
	And I take absolute pleasure in taking the phone away from her for a week because she's always happier when she doesn't have it.
	And my wife just every night goes through the phone history.
	She goes through everything she's looked on.
	And she can't delete any of it either because there's certain parental apps or something.
	And so this is how we know exactly what she's doing.
	But I've told my wife, in fact, I would just like to take it away from her permanently.
	My wife won't have it because she wants her to be able to phone.
	It's like, okay, we'll get her a phone that doesn't have internet access.
	Well, can't you just have a phone, not a smartphone?
	Well, that's what I've been arguing.
	And also, we've had such a limit, the amount of time she can spend on her laptop to one hour a night in the living room with us.
	Just because, I mean, if you were a 12-year-old and you had access to the internet, you'd go wherever you wanted as well.
	I'm not blaming the kids for doing it.
	It's the adults for allowing them.
	And so basically with my sons, they're just not getting phones.
	My oldest son is seven.
	My youngest is 18 months.
	It's not a problem at the moment.
	But like, they're just not getting phones.
	I'm just not having it.
	You know, it's absolutely not.
	I think it's the same with my niece.
	She's got four kids, all very young.
	They don't even have any screens.
	I mean, of any sort.
	Yeah.
	You know, because I mean, a lot of the kids now have like iPad screens.
	Oh, yeah, yeah.
	No, no, my kids don't have access to iPads.
	My son used to be able to play computer games with me at the weekend, but he was naughty recently and stole something, so he can't have access to those anymore.
	So now I have to play a lot of football.
	But anyway, so that's, well, don't worry, I enjoy playing football with him, but it's tiring.
	But anyway, that's the general, just, the state of the West is just gross.
	I can't stand the current culture that we have.
	But anyway, let's get a few comments before we end.
	Longshank says, I can't catch the podcast today, but I want to say thank you to Peter and the New Culture Forum for all the work they've done in trying to fight back against all the forces that are such a threat to our civilization and holding the very confused pro-LGBT Muslim mayor of London to account while in the Assembly.
	Oh, that's very kind.
	Thank you very much.
	Thank you.
	Ross says, glad you finally got Peter on.
	Well, look, I was trying to get him on before.
	I can't remember that.
	One of the last true politicians, willing to have and show principles and fight for them, whilst also remaining polite and willing to listen to opposing arguments.
	That's very nice.
	Right, Seravine, Severian, sorry, says, the similarities in the behaviour of Muslims and leftists prove that leftism is a cult.
	Keith says, apparently the threat of terror and racial hypersensitivity has turned our establishment into...
	I'm not going to say that, so...
	It's a bit of a spicy comment.
	But he also says, if they want to go along with the I have a right not to be offended line, well, Danwell cite more people who are offended by the Whitechapel Underground Station having its name boards changed to Bangladeshi.
	Yes, yes.
	Did you see that?
	Yes, I have.
	I couldn't believe it.
	Yes, yes.
	Could not believe it.
	I grew up in Germany, and you knew when you were in the English-speaking colony because the signs were in English.
	You knew when you were in Germany because the signs were in German.
	If the signs were just in English in the German-speaking areas, I would think they'd been conquered.
	I mean, they had been conquered.
	But this is one of the kind of great, to use that phrase again, cognitive dissonance, is that people would put that up in the kind of name of multiculturalism.
	If anything, it shows that actually it's not multiculturalism.
	It's a form of monoculturalism.
	Just operating in one area here, and another area here, and another area here.
	I honestly can't not describe them as colonies.
	They look just like colonies to me.
	And I grew up on colonies.
	You don't want colonies in your country.
	And the reason we had a colony in Germany is because they lost a war.
	And we don't have any more.
	But anyway, Ross says, I now live back in a small village after a time in Manchester.
	The community spirit and care of others has made me happier, even though modern amenities are very lacking.
	Can I just say it without wishing to, I don't know what your view on the whole Jubilee and things were, but it was like a form of social therapy in the sense that for four days, if you stayed off Twitter and all of that, which most people are not on, it was a happy and communal time.
	Something bigger outside I don't know whether you're a monarchist or a Republican, or whether you even give it a thought, I'm a strong monarchist.
	But it felt, it was extraordinary, and it was utterly unforced.
	People had to go to the council.
	They had to get their road closed.
	They had to bother enough to do that.
	And they did it in so many numbers that I found it very, very moving, actually.
	I mean, I was, I'm not, I'm not a monarchist or a Republican.
	I don't, I don't have a particular...
	I mean, I don't want a republic, because I don't like the way that republics tend to function.
	And I'm not a revolutionary.
	So you're an absolute monarchist, maybe?
	You want an absolute monarch?
	No, no.
	A constitutional monarchy is what I'm happy with, because it's the English tradition.
	But I'm...
	I can't help but see it as being the end of the purpose of Britain.
	It began as an empire, it had a very good run, but now it seems a bit hollowed out to me, and...
	Sad.
	And this seems like the last big hurrah.
	The last big time that everyone's going to come together and have a genuine fountain of emotion.
	Because I don't see this sort of thing happening under Charles or anything like that.
	No, but I mean, again, I'm going to kind of pull age rank on you here.
	In 1977, when you had the Silver Jubilee, People say, well, this will be the last, you know, this is going to fade away.
	This will be the last.
	Golden Jubilee, same thing.
	That actual phrase was used, the last hurrah.
	I don't think she'll last to another jubilee.
	Oh, no, no, no, she won't.
	But I think the way in which allegiance, strangely enough, is transferred is quite surprising.
	I understand.
	I get it.
	It's a particular case.
	We're never going to have a platinum jubilee again.
	I think the point is really, and this is crucial, and another reason to be cheerful and hopeful, is that when people, whether you are believing or not, when they were doing these street parties, when they were planning them and putting up flags and things, it did not occur to any of them that there was anything odd about the union journey.
	And after two and a half years of continued assault on the very idea of it, That, I think, was one of the most remarkable things.
	Everywhere you looked.
	It was lovely to see a lot of Union Jacks around.
	When I was campaigning for UKIP, we went over to Gibraltar, me and Callum, and it was lovely to see so many Union Jacks around.
	Like, you never see it like here.
	And we're just driving around, and it's just everywhere.
	Union Jacks.
	And it's like, this is normal for these people.
	You know, whereas it's utterly alien for people in Britain.
	And so, seeing all the bunting about the Jubilee reminded me of being in Gibraltar.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Because it was very much like, oh my God, it could be like this every day.
	Yes.
	But it's not, and unfortunately I don't think it will become that way.
	But I hate to say it, we're out of time.
	Oh, God, I've had a lovely time.
	Yeah, Peter, where can people find you?
	Oh, they can find me.
	Well, our website is newcultureforum.org.uk.
	Our YouTube channel is New Culture Forum on YouTube.
	Please do tune in.
	And also, do you want my personal thing?
	Yes, you've got a Twitter account.
	I've got a Twitter which is at Whittle182.
	So join up.
	I've got a very meagre following on...
	No, that's Instagram.
	What am I talking about?
	Isn't it PR Whittle?
	Yes, it's at PR Whittle.
	I'm sorry to sound so inept.
	I'm not really in that kind of zone.
	At PR Whittle, for me, yeah.
	So go and follow Peter, and then go sign up to the website, support us, and we will see you on Monday.

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