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Oct. 29, 2023 - Louder with Crowder
53:06
HEATED: Are White People Too "Fragile?!" | Black & White On The Gray Issues
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How would you categorize race relations between black and white people in the United States today?
From a media standpoint, division.
Welcome back for part two of the newest series, Black and White on the Gray Issues.
Last time I took to the streets to see if relations between black and white Americans were actually as bad as legacy media would have you believe.
And what do you know?
The narrative couldn't be further from the truth.
Turns out you can actually find some common ground and have great dialogues when you actually start talking with people.
That being said, I'd be lying if I said it was entirely smooth sailing.
If you talk to enough people, you will eventually find an outlier.
And this was an outlier.
Which took place in our final interview of the day.
Now, without spoiling too much, see if you can tell how this particular conversation went differently.
We would still be slaves if it was for you, baby.
Alright, just for a second.
It may be that I'm a little old-fashioned.
That seems a little wild to me.
But let me know in the comments below what you think.
Did this woman just offer fair assessment or pure, unadulterated insanity?
Let me ask you, where would you put or how would you categorize race relations between
black and white people in the United States today?
I think from a media standpoint, division.
Right.
I think that's where we are.
I think that there is division.
I do.
I think there's definitely some microaggressions and things like that that are apparent.
But on my everyday interacting, I think it's I think it's an array of things.
I think there's some positivity, there's some growth opportunities.
I think I have, within my circle, it's diverse.
And I love that it's diverse, but I also think that we're not having those conversations within my diverse community.
So when you say diverse, do you mean racially, do you mean ideologically, politically?
Um, politically and racially.
Okay.
Yeah.
So you have white, black, Republican, Democrat, all in your circle of friends?
Yes.
I have pretty much everything.
What would you say has kind of helped you?
I think learning from different people helps you grow.
What would you say has helped you grow more?
Having people of different races in your circle of friends or people of different ideologies?
People from different walks of life?
I think walks of life.
I think you learn more.
I think because I can meet another African American person who's had a different upbringing than I do and I'm learning what their struggle looks like versus my struggle because it's very different.
I think it's really truly about being open.
Open to listening, open to learning and having the conversations.
So, you're saying that in your day-to-day, your experiences have been good, probably because of your circle of friends.
Compared to the media, it sounds like you're saying there is some division out there, but not so much in your circle of friends.
Not within my circle of friends, because I choose them, right?
Right.
So this is my choice.
It's my choice to have people in my circle that I don't have to fight with all the time, that we are open and we learn from one another.
But I take a look at where we are in their schools.
They go to private schools.
So, there's complete division with racial divide, seeing our black boys in the private school arena getting in trouble where the white boys don't get in trouble for the same offense.
I see that every day.
Why don't you just take them out of private schools?
Because at the end of the day, it's a better education.
Is it?
Yeah.
Okay.
It is.
Because that's got to be tough then if you have to choose.
What kind of things do they get into trouble for that white kids wouldn't?
A fist fight.
I brought it up last year.
If you see two black kids in a fist fight, they'll probably get suspended.
You see two white kids in a fist fight, which rarely happens in private school, then it's a pat on the back.
I can't tell if you're joking or if you're serious.
Is it rare, like, white kids get into a fight in a private school, or are you saying they get in just as many fights?
No.
Fight in general, at private school, is very rare.
Okay.
In general.
Yeah.
Whether white or black.
Whatever race it is.
Okay.
Right.
Yeah.
I was raised in Canada where we had a zero-tolerance policy, so it didn't matter if you defended yourself or you started the fight, you were all suspended, which I think is morally reprehensible.
I think it's... I think...
I was suspended because I got punched in the face.
Oh, that's not good.
No.
No, because you were defending yourself.
Yeah.
Well, I didn't really.
I mostly just turtled.
Oh, okay.
Well, I'm going to need you to defend next time.
I learned that later on.
But see, at that point I was a little bitch is what I was.
I didn't know.
The kid was two years older than me.
Oh, well that's not good.
Fourteen to sixteen is a huge difference.
You're not going to do anything.
In just maturity, body, you're just... it's all the whole thing.
Yeah, the whole thing.
The whole thing.
Oh, it was a terrible experience, but I think it's a good example.
We weren't teaching kids that, hey, not all violence is equivalent.
Like, if someone attacks you, you're saying this as a mom, you would probably want your kids to defend themselves.
To defend.
Yeah, of course I would.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I think that's why it says there's a legal defense for defending yourself.
No, absolutely right.
You mentioned microaggressions.
So you're the first person today who's mentioned that.
What do you mean by that?
Microaggressions meaning they say little things, they meaning non people of color will say little things not realizing that it's a microaggression, not realizing that it's hurtful, that it's racism because it's so micro.
So, like, what would be an example of that?
My hair.
Oh, my God, can I touch your hair?
Oh, my God, is that real?
Things of that nature are... We didn't do that.
It's just... Carrington, you want to give me some microaggressions?
Well, you speak so well, even though I'm just using basic English.
Because they assume I'm going to be speaking using AAVE or vernacular or verbonics, whatever you want to say it, put it as.
But yeah, it's just things like that, little things.
I remember in 6th grade, somebody said my hair looked like spaghetti hair because I had twist and I don't know what y'all... look it up, look up
twist. I have like round twists in and they said my hair looks like burnt spaghetti.
And that's a microaggression, right? You don't realize it, but it is hurtful in the long run and it makes you feel
othered. And that's not okay.
When I was in high school, I had a horrible haircut and it was cut very short on the sides and I was told that I
looked like a retard Patrick Dempsey.
Nice.
So it wasn't so much a microaggression as a...
That's just aggression.
That's just aggression-aggression.
But my point is that happens to everybody.
My question is, I think maybe it comes down to, is that necessarily racist?
Or if we just view it through the lens of, maybe this is something I'm uncomfortable with, but they're not meaning it to be racist, right?
Racism would have to come with intent.
Racism does not have to be intentional.
Racism can be subtle for sure.
It can be subtle.
There's something called internalized racism because of how society just shows things off, right?
A lot of women, a lot of girls, just look at Disney princesses.
There's only one black Disney princess and that's not crazy, but little girls look at their little princesses, right?
And they look at all this array of like plenty of white women, right?
And they aspire to be that a lot of the times.
And I feel like little things like that, you're internalizing racism,
even though it's not blatant racism.
I think everyone thinks that racism is this thing that people go out and hurt people with, but a lot of the time it's just the way you think.
You think white bodies and white people first, and don't necessarily think about people of color in your life, right?
It's more so a mindset than blatant hurting people, you know what I mean?
What would be, I guess, I'm sorry, are you comfortable talking with your mom?
Oh, I'm sure.
Okay, here, do you mind getting into this so I don't, because right now the camera's going to be going back and forth like a Wes Anderson film, so you see we're not trying to sandbag.
What was your name, by the way?
I'm Carrington.
Carrington?
This is what she does, she's so amazing.
Carrington, Stephen, and Eddie.
Eddie, yep.
Could you give me some examples there, maybe more examples of internalized racism?
Because let me tell you where white people are nervous, okay?
Okay.
I'd love to hear that.
Yeah, so, in other words, if you're talking about white people being racist, right, toward you, and that's a legitimate concern, of course, in some places you're going to have individual racists.
It's a different conversation from systemic racism, right, or internalized racism, but we all acknowledge that.
I will tell you this, the reason that a lot of white people don't have these kinds of conversations, like this, is because they're afraid of being accused of being... No, they're afraid of being accused of being racist.
Well, see, that is an attack, to just say white fragility.
What if someone, for example, we just interviewed every single black man that we interviewed today, every single one, said, yeah, the Black Lives Matter thing got out of hand, all lives matter, everyone's lives matter, and I don't think that was good for either community.
Every single black man that we interviewed today.
And if I were to say that same thing, right, because I don't think the problem is just race, and I think we do have a failed justice system, by the way.
I think you'll miss it if you think it's just race.
Well, we can't classify that as white fragility or microaggression.
I disagree with every white man, every black man you spoke with today.
But they're entitled to their opinion.
It surprised me that they said it.
White fragility means that... I think we're on the same page.
You're just defining it as different.
Fragility means when white people are afraid to confront the fact that they might have racism or might have racist thoughts.
That's white fragility.
But what if they don't?
They don't.
Literally almost everybody in America does because of the way America works.
Even black people have racist thoughts towards black people, right?
So it's kind of hard to get out of there unless you're like not from America and even then it's pretty difficult.
So literally everyone has some form of racist thoughts but white people it's just easier because they're not Black or they're not a person of color, they don't have the system around them necessarily to confront that, because they don't have to, right?
So it takes more work on their part, right?
And there's nothing really necessarily, well that's, it's not great, but there's nothing wrong with working more harder to get to a certain point, you know what I mean?
Okay.
So.
So, I just want to be clear that I understand, as a, you know, white guy, obviously, um, is, uh, and I, I get it.
Look, we're coming from different perspectives.
You're defining something that you just said would require more work, right, and would be a form of racism that they may not know, Yeah.
Yeah.
frankly, is something that they were born with white fragility, through no fault of their own.
What you just outlined is racism. Right. I mean, no, you saying white fragility,
that's what that would be racist toward like saying, yeah, you are blamed for something
that you were born with.
You have white fragility just because you're black.
So, racism, no.
Literally everybody has their own form of racial fragility.
You know that, right?
So there is black fragility is a term that's taught.
Two, Latino fragility.
I mean, everyone can be racist towards certain people, and when black people are called out for certain things in the black community that are not necessarily great for the black community, they get- sometimes they'll get defensive, especially if it's not somebody coming from the black community, because one, that could be seen as like, perceived hate because you never know who you're talking to, and also just because like, White fragility is a complicated subject because a lot of people feel it, you know what I mean?
And it does hurt people, their emotions, so it's really hard to just kind of break that down.
And I feel like that's really the issue, is people are not willing to break that down.
Having white fragility is not a good thing, but most white people have it, so we have to work through it, you know what I mean?
I think it's just because society puts this on other people.
It's not necessarily white people's fault, it's society's fault for putting that on white people, and that's a lot of things with racism.
Society puts things on black people, right?
I think white people put it on themselves.
I don't think so.
I think white people are society.
I think it's one and the same.
Okay, so let me explain.
Our society is based off of white supremacy from a historical standpoint, right?
From the Tulsa Massacre to slavery to literally like all our presidents except for one being black from the long history period of time, right?
Our society is based on the ideal of whiteness.
We live from a nuclear household, one, two parent households, things like that.
Black people can have two parent households, but that's not how our community has ever
been based.
Even from Africa, we have been based on a village style of living and working together.
It takes a whole village to raise a child, and Black people truly embody that.
While white people tend to have more of a nuclear family, one parent, I mean two parents
and a few children, and they work together, right?
There's nothing certainly wrong with a nuclear family, but it does, it is like an embodiment of the American dream and whiteness, right?
So because society's built on all this whiteness and all of these standpoints that are made for white people, they're just more used to that, right?
And they're not really used to thinking outside the box and thinking about people of color, and that's what I'm talking about.
And when they're confronted at the fact that they don't think about people of color, you get white fragility because they're scared, and they didn't want to realize that they Let me rephrase this.
They didn't realize that they weren't thinking about people of color or they were in the back of their mind and they
get scared.
Right?
I hear you, but I disagree with you because I think right now at this very moment you saying that's racist is
privilege, honey.
That's nothing but privilege.
It's white privilege to be able to say that.
I'm not sure I should be able to say that.
No, to be able to say it and to live in that, I think it's white privilege.
You're not making the right argument.
The definition of racism is power behind discrimination.
You can discriminate against white people.
Anyone can.
But you can't necessarily be racist towards white people because racism comes from discrimination plus a place in society where you get to have power, right?
That is the clinical... not clinical.
If you look on Google, that's not necessarily what you're gonna get because Google dumbs things down, right?
But if you look on like... We agree there.
Yeah.
Right, so if you look at like more like racial context, if you look at like Bell, oh my god I forgot her name, Bell Hooks, and so many different racial scholars, that's the definition that is greatly read on in the academic space.
So racism is discrimination plus power, essentially.
So white people have more power than most people of color, all people of color in the United States, while some people of color don't have as much power.
So punching up is not the same as punching down.
Anybody can discriminate against anybody, that's just a fact.
But racism is based on a system of power.
Now, I don't know if this would be... Would you be open to the idea that some of those things...
The nuclear family.
That's a big one.
I don't know if you know this, but in the United States, there was a far lower divorce rate for a very long period of time, at the same time that black households had higher literacy rates.
There's no issues with that.
What I'm talking about is the nuclear family.
That's a big one.
I don't know if you know this, but in the United States, there was a far lower divorce
rate for a very long period of time, at the same time that black households had higher
literacy rates.
Do you know why there was a lower divorce rate?
There was a lower divorce rate for a very long time.
You know why?
Because women had to.
Because they didn't own credit cards.
They couldn't get divorced.
They couldn't live without a man.
That's literally the reason why the divorce rate was so low.
No, no, no.
I'm talking about before this, by the way, historically.
We're talking about from the inception of the country, before the suffragette movement.
So this would be the same thing that white women and black women would face, the issues you're talking about.
So those same groups.
Black families were very strong, had low divorce rates, had large households.
And a big part of it was because of the faith basis back then.
And it was, again, the community, right?
The church.
That's a big community thing.
Yes.
I noticed Eddie you have a wedding ring.
My dad.
Are you married?
Yes, my dad.
Now let me ask you, why?
Why what?
Why send your kids to private school, which is very commendable.
You obviously care about your kids.
You're married.
If I didn't, I would still care.
Sure.
I'm financially able.
Right.
But do you think that the reason you choose to be married and have a nuclear household, did you make that decision because it was what you thought was best?
Or do you think that's because of white supremacy, white fragility?
Well, there's things that are implicit.
And also, like, for my mom, it's just because she loves my dad.
Our household's not that nuclear because we have so many people that support us outside of our house.
Like, it's not just all mom and dad.
If I want to go to my uncle, he'll take care of me.
You know what I mean?
It's not really that nuclear.
My husband is fine.
Yeah.
And I love him.
He's my man.
And that's why.
That's a wonderful thing.
That's it.
Yeah.
So it's not a byproduct of...
For that one, there's a reason.
We don't really live in a nuclear household anyway in our home.
It's a village.
So we can't really apply that to us anyways.
You can. Do you know how many kids, white or black, go to private school?
They don't have a mom and dad in the house?
Statistically none, whether you're white or black.
It's very, very rare.
It's very difficult, yeah.
I have 20 friends.
It helps with two parents who are still there.
That's a big, that's a, and I think that's, by the way, it's a huge blessing.
I think what you just said about your husband, I would love to hear everyone say about their husband.
Yeah, she loves him very much.
Yeah, that's one thing, actually, when we talk about it, I think that a lot of white women probably could learn from this.
There's a lot of loyalty in the black community, a sense of community that often white people do not have.
And you'll see it with men and women.
You'll see it with them leaving pretty quickly.
I think that's a beautiful thing, but I think that's huge.
privilege for everybody regardless of race. But historically if someone... and I don't even want
to get into exactly where I would disagree historically as far as you know Africa,
the idea of the nuclear family being white supremacy or Disney princesses. But my question
is where can a white person, because that conversation's all that, where can a white
person disagree and say yeah that's not racism or you know what I don't I don't agree with the idea
of white fragility and them not be a racist. Okay.
Because I was just told that that is privilege to even say, I disagree with your opinion.
No.
No, that's not necessarily what we're saying.
You kind of low-key said that.
Anyways, but what I'm saying is if you have the facts...
If you have the backing and there's no issue with debating something but you need to understand what the core is.
So if somebody said, I don't think white fragility exists because of x, y, z reasons, and someone comes back with no,
and they're still very hard-headed about it, or they don't see the reasons,
or they don't really look into those facts, that's where the issue lies.
If there's an actual discussion, I don't really care if you think white fragility
is real or not, because eventually, you are going to come to an opinion
that is not necessarily based on how you feel, but on facts, and then from there,
you can do whatever you want.
I don't necessarily care about what people.
So if someone were to go through, for example, just to kind of use your timeline,
and if someone was raised in Canada, right, not the United States, just want to use your timeline,
say, actually, according to Professor West, black men, black activists, well over 95% of slaves in
Africa were sold into slavery by African slave traders,
including largely black activists.
Still wrong, but yeah.
Of course it's wrong.
And this was the first country to fight the bloodiest revolution in history in order to free the slaves, because they recognized that it was ungodly, based on the Judeo-Christian principles of the Sunday Emancipation Proclamation, We were not uniquely responsible for starting slavery, we were uniquely responsible for ending it in the modern world.
And there are more slaves today than ever in recorded history.
We're on earth right now, 42 million.
42 million, and someone says, so since there are more slaves on earth today, largely in the Middle East, in Africa, and in Asia, Also, you can't really say white people ended racism because black people fought to end racism.
So white people are the reason we still exist in the first place.
We would still be slaves if it was for you, baby.
If it was for white people.
I think you came through it very incorrectly without understanding the basis and the foundation of the African
American community.
I can't say white people ended racism because black people fought to end racism.
So white people are the reason we still exist in the first place.
We would still be slaves if it was for you baby.
If for white people. We would still be enslaved.
I believe that. I believe that.
How much have you read from Washington, from Jefferson, from Lincoln?
After he was raping all the slave women and making babies with them and all that?
That is very true.
We're talking about Jefferson?
It is true that they freed their slaves upon their death because it was illegal at that point.
It's very true that he raped slaves and he has children.
He has children by her.
Hamilton's wife had plenty of slaves.
So let's not even go there.
They all had slaves.
That's not a good take.
I mean, I've raped them and had children.
Jefferson did.
Jefferson definitely did.
Jefferson has a line of children.
Okay, so do you believe, you believe that if it were up to all white people, meaning
the North, that people would still be enslaved?
No, not there.
That's not a good take.
Anyways, I love you, but no.
I believe that, and that's my belief.
So what was the start of entering slavery?
Because Quakers existed, you know?
But what I am saying is that, because Quakers existed, you can't blame all, you know?
I don't want to blame all, but I do think that because we fought... You can't say that all white people, there's Quakers and people that exist like that.
I'm saying a lot of white people in the past did not want a change in slavery.
I mean, like, very much that.
That's what I'm saying, not all white people today.
I'm saying from that Can I say something though?
For both of you, because you both obviously are, even though she's 17, she can run circles around you every day.
There's a lot of people who did, there's a lot of people, I don't know, there's some people who didn't.
But what I'm saying is the reason that we got out of slavery is because of our work.
Can I say something though?
Without, for both of you, because you both obviously are, even though she's 17,
she can run circles around you every day, y'all are really good at this.
She's waiting for it.
Yeah, she's really good.
I still feel like we're not going to get anywhere with this conversation.
Right, because we started off with the idea that it must be based on racism.
We're not growing in this conversation at all.
And you can't.
You're defending.
And she's defending.
Nobody is moving forward.
Wouldn't it be incumbent?
In other words, we're talking about defending.
And this is why I say we've had a lot of conversations.
This is why we're down here, right?
The first person to say white fragility is something that can't be disproven That is the conversation where it cannot be productive because it starts from a racist premise.
If I were to come in and say, hey, you know what, not enough black people and white people are talking about these issues, and that's because black people are incredibly fragile, that probably wouldn't be a productive conversation, right?
I think we can say that.
I think I'm intelligent enough to have that conversation and skew you differently.
I think you can definitely say that black people are fragile about certain things.
I think there's something wrong with saying that.
Because there's truth to it.
There's truth to that.
I think every race is fragile at certain things within that race.
I don't think that's a... No, I don't.
I disagree.
No, you can say black people are fragile about this certain thing.
I feel black people are fragile.
You can say that and then we can then educate you on why.
Yes.
Right?
When I talk to you about right fragility, every time you come up with, like, this is racist, this is racist, this is racist, almost every single time.
Because it is.
And I disagree with you on that because racism is power plus oppression, right?
I mean power plus discrimination, right?
And you can't have right fragility because there's no White people can't be... Refugility is not racist because it has no power behind it, right?
Or it has... I mean, there has power behind it towards black people.
That's why it is... Like, white people having refugility is racist.
Does that mean?
Because that means they have a racial... Do you believe that black people have no power behind them in the United States?
I think every race has power behind them.
I mean, there's power in numbers, but I don't think our power is equal to the white man.
Oh, exactly.
So here's my question for you.
I think it depends on the person.
I don't.
I think it depends on the white person.
We're talking about systematically, right?
It's an industrial system and things like that.
And racial profiling and how people think things, how people categorize and stereotypes and the Jezebel and the Sapphire.
I think that's the word.
I think I messed up the word on that.
Maybe I didn't.
You're just throwing out words.
Jezebel can apply to white people, too.
It can, but historically, especially in minstrel shows, it applies to black women.
That stereotype is placed more on black women.
It can apply to white people, but it's not as often.
We're just across from the restaurant at the Slutty Vegan.
I mean, it's something that goes across the board.
I know.
My point is that we identify as a racial issue.
Slutty Vegan is owned by a black woman.
But anyways, what we're saying is that... There are plenty of sluts.
A lot of people like them.
Jezebel is biblical.
It's biblical, but it also historically has been used against black people in minstrel shows a lot, too.
Jezebel has a slightly more racial-coded tone than the word slut does.
Do you feel what I mean?
Any of those problems that you identify... Because there's one thing we've talked about today.
Any of those problems that you just identified, for example, you talk about the prison-industrial complex, you talk about schools, you talk about government.
Are any of those problems not racially based?
So, prison-industrial system, definitely.
What was the next one?
Public education.
Because of where living spaces are and because of systems and slums and redlining and all of those things.
That's based on anti-blackness and also based on class.
You can toss Disney in there.
Disney has racism too.
Or Tide, the baby company.
Anyways.
I lost a ton of money on those.
I'm really waiting for them to go up in value.
Do you realize that Ty the Beanie Baby Company right now owns the license for all the Disney princesses but he refuses to make one Disney princess and that happens to be Tiana.
He refuses to make that one.
Yeah.
So I'm just saying it lies within so many different facets.
I gotta tell you.
Yeah.
There's nothing to say about that.
That's just horrible.
Yeah, I don't know that that's even true or that it's because of her race.
I know that Princess and the Frog was one of the most successful modern Disney films, and we just had a Black Mermaid that comes from it.
Director of marketing.
It's very true.
I worked for the company for five years.
So instead of saying, I don't know that's true, I would love for you to say, Oh my God, that must be hurtful.
This is where the divide is.
You automatically went to, you automatically, let me speak.
You automatically went for, back up a little bit.
You automatically went for the, I don't know if that's true.
I don't, I don't know.
I don't know.
Instead of saying, wow, could that be true?
If so, That must be horrible.
I'm telling you what the tone is that you just set for me.
I'm telling you what the tone is that you just set for me.
You've been wrong about so much that I don't trust what you're telling me.
You just said that there weren't white people freeing the slaves,
that it was only because of black people.
I didn't say that.
So Jefferson raped his woman.
I never said that.
It's just not accurate.
So I'll take your word for it.
How do you know he didn't rape his woman?
There's a guy named David Barton.
He has a bunch of destroyable artifacts.
Were you there?
Were you there?
So, were you?
Mama, this is not... Mama, this is not an argument.
So, can I answer your question?
Can I speak?
Can I speak?
Then let's both say no.
Can I speak?
Then let's both say no.
We both don't know.
This is... I think we're kind of identifying a primary issue.
No, stop saying mom to me.
It's not black-white.
It's male-female.
I think that's the issue that we're running into here.
No, it is black and white.
It's very black and white.
I think that the interrupting and the aggression and the implication that someone needs to back up when I have not taken any closer steps towards you.
I don't care, but I feel uncomfortable.
It's a notably female issue.
It's not.
And we've been able to have productive conversations with black men across the board and, by the way, most women.
But there does seem to be a divide in interrupting.
And being abrasive and certainly being more aggressive.
Wait a minute.
I didn't start out that way.
Let me say this.
It is a trap.
Let me say this.
It didn't start out that way.
Let me say this. It is a trap. Let me say this. It didn't start out that way. You made me feel that way.
I don't care.
Okay, good.
End of conversation.
I cared about the facts.
I wasn't intending to make you feel that way.
It's the end of the conversation.
That's fine.
You've just shown your true colors.
I don't care that you feel that way if you're wrong.
Yes, you were trapped, and you guys, and this is horrible.
Every single conversation today has been productive, and we found more in common than less.
Every single one.
Yeah.
With the exception of this, and this is the only one, where I was told I couldn't have an opinion because of
white fragility, and I just said...
You could have an opinion. I said personally that you could have an opinion, right?
I said that multiple times, as long as you come with facts and like proof, right?
Because, okay, here's my thing...
We haven't addressed any of them.
We have, especially with the same thing I said from my sources and from my facts,
we have a difference of facts and opinions, so we should have dropped that
totally and completely and gone to something else, like maybe the prison industrial system,
or maybe something else that has more basis, but you just kind of hounded on the fact
of one thing, and you didn't really address.
This is not like a great conversation to have, right?
And from my mom, she's not like...
I'm trained in debate, so I know how to...
What trap have I laid?
certain debates you're making and I know how to move around them or know how to
deal with them. She does not. So she'll fall into that trap a little bit more easily of how...
What trap have I laid? I'm really not trying to lay a trap.
You're not laying a trap, but you're being difficult to talk to and understand.
There's a lack of empathy on both sides. And I feel like that's the main
issue is there's a lack of empathy on both sides and we're not really reading
each other or hearing each other. And that's where the main issue is. And mom, she's
pretty strong-willed, she's pretty strong-headed, and when she comes to
debate, she comes to win. I come from a different perspective.
So my goal was this...
My goal was this.
First to hear each other.
And within this conversation, I didn't feel that.
It changed.
You just told me I don't care.
You just said there's no facts.
You just told me everything.
Negative, instead of listening and hearing.
And I thought this conversation would have been completely different, and now I feel like I'm in a trap.
Well, the good news is you'll be able to rewind it, and you'll be able to see the behavior that you have exhibited here, and not myself.
And you can watch it, you can rewind it.
That's what you think of black women.
Mom, you're making a whole lot of statements right now that are not helping this conversation and making you look worse.
Is it possible that I think that maybe you've been impolite?
That maybe you've been inaccurate in some of your assumptions yourself, and not because you're black?
I think we've both been impolite.
And not because you're black.
So why does it have anything to do with your race?
I just think you've been aggressive.
So here's the thing.
Here's what I want you to hear.
Whenever a woman, or a black woman, asserts herself, or says, this is incorrect.
Please don't do it.
It's so tired to do that.
The conversation is now over.
Have a wonderful day.
Because of the way you're treating me.
When you say, every time a black woman asserts herself, no.
No.
That's not true.
That's not what's happening here.
A lot of times, often, there's a thing called tone policing.
I'm sure you know about it, right?
Sure.
And that happens a lot often to people that have these conversations.
When people get aggressive about something that hurts them, a lot of people will tell them they're being aggressive instead of looking deeper.
Passion.
Mom, instead of looking deeper into what's going on and seeing how that hurts them and having empathy.
Empathy is the biggest thing.
I have, but the thing is that you're not hearing me.
I'm trying to hear you.
The root cause of it is historical inaccuracy and lies that you've been fed.
To say that the nuclear family is white supremacy or is an example of white supremacy, here's the thing.
Do any of those ideas make black children's lives better?
It makes it worse.
It makes it worse.
The nuclear family does not make really anybody's lives better.
It's the single biggest indicator that you have success, of ending up in prison, of graduating high school, of being illiterate, or having successful marriage or marriage.
Having two parents, sure, that's useful.
Having a mom and dad and them involved in your life.
It's not even close.
Because of the nuclear family, right?
Having your mom and dad, right?
Yes.
But what if an uncle takes that place of the dad?
You can still have those benefits, right?
It's more so just only having one parent to depend on.
It's not because of the nuclear family.
It's having one parent to depend on.
If one parent, let's say, died, right?
But they had the entire family come in and help those children, they're probably still as well off.
Right.
So why is that not happening in the black community?
It is.
It is.
The black community is very communal.
We're living it.
I think it's a beautiful thing that you are living it, but it's not.
Statistically, it's not.
Statistically, there are more children in the black community.
The single household is not even close and the family is not stepping in.
And if you look at the tables, if you look at the statistics regarding literacy, regarding graduating high school, regarding crime, regarding how much money... I feel like that's more of a class issue.
I'm talking about, like, okay, fencing you.
Yeah.
It's the single biggest indicator that we have of one's success in life.
From behavioral issues to successful relationships themselves, to going to school... For behavioral issues... I'm a walkout.
Also, yeah.
I'm telling you exactly what I think it is.
I think it's very important for children to have parents in their lives.
In psychology, because I plan on being a psychology major and I study this a lot, a lot of time for medical issues and things like that, people will often diagnose black children with behavioral issues instead of looking at other criteria.
Prison.
Murder, arson, theft.
I'm not talking about ADHD.
I'm talking about the chances of single parent households murder, prison, theft, violent crimes, right?
I apologize for being myopic.
This is like a little pinpoint so I can get you to see like a bigger picture, I suppose.
So when you look at like...
I apologize for being myopic.
Yeah, so...
What did you say?
I said I apologize for being myopic.
Yeah.
So, um, when we look at bat children, right, they're more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD
and things like that, but also behavioral issues.
I'm not sure what was that.
They tend to be... I just didn't hear it.
Like, different mental issues and behavioral issues, right?
Let's go with that.
So, uh, they're more likely to be diagnosed with behavioral issues instead of, like, other mental conditions, right?
But in reality, they might fit those better because of the perceived racial biases a lot of people have, right?
And this goes to medicine, how black women are treated, and how they're more likely to die in pregnancy and childbirth, right?
And I feel like that's just a small peek into how a greater society treats a lot of black people.
They ignore what we're saying, and they choose to think about us in a different way than what actually is reality.
So can I respond to that?
There are a couple of things, and this is where hopefully these conversations can take place.
There's another reason that black women are more likely to die during childbirth, and that's because of obesity.
And when we're talking about behavioral disorders, I'm not.
I'm talking about murder.
I'm talking about violent crime.
13%.
So again, is there a certain point where it's not someone else's fault?
I think everything's connected.
You can't really take one thing away from I'm saying if we take that out, though, the statistic is huge.
But I'm saying you can't take it out.
And this is why I said not just behavioral disorders.
It's one of many that I listed, right?
There's no getting away from the 13% committing 52% of the violent crimes in this country.
13% of the population.
And it's largely black men, by the way.
So it's really about under 6%.
So why is that?
Why is that?
And how do you offer solutions?
Why are the mass murderers usually white men?
You're talking about statistics.
13% of the population.
52% of the crimes.
Which doesn't help young black boys.
You're not listening, and this is not a productive conversation.
I agree.
So therefore, the conversation ends.
You're not to use my data for anything.
I'm not going to use your data.
We do not approve of being on camera or doing anything.
It's a single-party consent state, and you already did.
But I'm not sure how productive the conversation is anyway, so it may not be useful.
I agree with that.
I agree with that.
At all.
But it may be something that we use.
I'm asking you not to use anything.
Okay, I will take it into consideration.
I'll take it into consideration.
Okay, so... We don't want you to use anything with our face, our name, on it whatsoever, on anything having to do with you or your company.
It doesn't matter, though.
It doesn't matter, though.
Yeah, so anything for your YouTube video, we do not consent to it.
Now, are we going to disagree on this?
We're single-party consent laws?
Are you familiar with them?
Or is that just... It's the law.
Now, if we want to have a conversation about, okay, fine, where you don't want to, but you did consent to this interview, it started off as friendly as all the others today, and now the law says, but that doesn't matter, the law says it doesn't matter.
Unfortunately, we do not consent.
Great.
Also, what does it say about you as a company to renege on our consent?
You know what I mean?
I feel like, as a company, that's not great.
She was right, and I hate that.
It's called journalism.
I hate that she was right.
It's called journalism.
And your whole demeanor and everything about you shifted.
And I was so open for a beautiful conversation and everything about you shifted.
I think it shifted with the idea of microaggressions and white fragility because that's racist.
And that's my opinion.
And you don't agree with it, that's fine.
And you'll say it's privilege, and you'll say that obesity is because of white people, and you'll say that the murder is because of white mass murderers, but you haven't listened.
Absolutely.
Everything I've said is white privilege.
Everything is white privilege.
That must be it.
Just think about it as like a company.
This is not great for, like, if somebody straight up said, we didn't give you consent, that's not great for a company.
Why do you think you're the only ones where that's the case?
I also have a question.
If your goal is to show this love and this great community, this is just not productive.
Right.
No, I agree.
I don't think that this is good ambassadorship for them.
No.
At all.
So why are you fighting us and saying you don't want this to be shown?
So why are you fighting us on why you want this to not be shown, right?
I feel like if your goal is to show bonding and community, and we're telling you not to, that goes against your company ideals.
No.
Well, first off, you don't know the company or our ideals.
But you literally just said it's about bonding community, so why would you show us, one, not wanting to?
That's not nice.
And she's a minor.
I am a minor.
But also, like, it's just not a nice thing to do, you know?
I feel like, from, like, a disaccompanied perspective, you want, like, bonding community.
This is not what this is doing.
No, I agree with you.
But I would ask the question of yourselves, just like you asked me to check privilege, I would ask of yourselves Why is this the only one where that's the case?
Why are we out here for hours?
Well, that's the thing.
There's the value in that when you talk about the company.
Seeing the contrast that some people don't have.
You talked about the Bible.
Ears to hear.
You said that to me, but I have never said it's because you're black.
You can go back through this and rewind it.
I've never once made a generalization that because you are black, you can't X or Y. You've both done it at least eight times.
I said you're more likely to, or you're more predisposed to.
And that's why I would say this one wasn't productive.
She has.
I personally have not.
In this entire thing, I've seen you're more predisposed to do certain behaviors, like most people are, because of society.
But I've never said, because you're white, you're going to be doing this thing.
I have not once said that.
And I don't think because someone's white, they're going to do one thing.
I think it's based on how they all think.
I think it's everything we do as humans, it's based on how we think, you know?
Can we find some common ground on this?
If I'm going to take what you're just saying, and I believe that it's 100% genuine, can you listen to what I'm about to say, and just take it into consideration?
So if you just said that you've never once, and you're rolling your eyes.
One thing that I'm allowed to say, because everything I say, you say, well, no, that's, no, believe what I'm, I'm taking you as genuine at your word.
Take me.
It's never going to be helpful for you to start the conversation with racial generalization like white fragility.
So even if you make that, in other words, remove that from your vocabulary.
And maybe argue the argument.
I think it's a concept.
I think the word is like a buzzword, but the concept itself is valid.
You know, that people take in what society gives them and then they have this way of thinking.
I think that's a valid concept.
I think it's the idea that you are a byproduct of your environment.
Sure, as a concept.
Society conditions people to have those thoughts.
I wouldn't say society, though.
TV, media, let's go with that then.
That's a big part of it, yes.
And that's what we started off with, right?
So, as we go with TV and media, if they're conditioned to think that, then...
So let me ask you this, because I think this is where we're making headway.
What you have expressed today, would that be more in line with everything that you see in television and media than what I am communicating?
The idea of white fragility, white privilege, that it needs to be checked, that we're systemically racist?
That's what you'll see on CNN and ABC and NBC and CBS, right?
That would be the condition.
I think it's a lot more subtle than that.
I think it's small things.
I think you can say the big word out loud and say white fragility is this XYZ and you can educate people, but it doesn't undo just only being exposed to certain people, right?
So a lot of people, a lot of white people especially, live in white spaces.
They're not really exposed to a lot of people of color, so that's how their brain thinks.
It's not necessarily, like, it's not great, right?
But it's not their fault, and I understand that.
Just because something is not their fault doesn't mean it's not bad.
Somebody could be, like, born with psychopathy, right?
That's a trait you're born with most of the time, sometimes slightly raised, right?
Sometimes nature nurtures, yeah, that's fair.
Right?
But that doesn't mean it's a good thing, right?
So something can be placed on you, it's not necessarily a good thing.
It's not necessarily your fault either, right?
Right.
But it's something we should all work towards.
Like narcissism.
Yes, but it's something we should all work towards.
To get better from, right?
Like, if I was born with something horrible, I would have to work towards it and become a better person through that.
Same thing with something that was placed on me.
I have to work towards that and become a better person.
That's with literally everything.
So with media, in subtle ways, because it does happen subtly, I mean, look at, like, disrepresentation.
Look at how, like, on media and Disney Channel, especially Disney Channel, how black people and Asian people often are portrayed.
Little kids absorb that, you know?
And I feel like they have to do the work now to get that out of their minds.
So I think that's a fair state, and I think getting that out of your minds, people don't want to change, and that's where the right fragility comes from.
It's not really because they're fragile, it's because they don't want to change the way they think, and they don't want to go against the grain, because they don't want to admit to themselves that they've been socialized in this way.
And it's not their fault, but they think it's their fault, because it's the way they think.
Yeah, I think that that is the most unproductive way of thinking of these issues that you can imagine, because there's no way to absorb new information There's no way to use a critical thinking lens, because no matter what I say, you will say, maybe it's not white people's fault, but it's because they're white.
And if you're going to educate people... I don't think it's because they're white.
I think this happens with Asian people as well, you know?
I think, yeah, for example, affirmative action right there, being screwed by...
I wasn't talking about that.
I was talking about... Can you let me continue my sentence?
I was talking... I wasn't finished with my answer.
I was already talking before you did your answer.
But what I was saying with Asian people, I was talking about sometimes Asian people have this idea of black folks because they're only... the black folks that are only shown a lot of the times are these bad stereotypes, especially overseas, right?
And I feel like it's still bad, but it's not their fault.
So they have to work through that, right?
What if it's because they've been the victim of black violent crime at a disproportionate rate?
I'm talking about overseas right now.
They probably haven't statistically.
In the United States, it's unbelievable.
I'm talking about overseas right now.
So, can I ask you a question?
So, overseas, like in Asia?
Overseas, yeah.
Like in Asia, in Japan, in Korea, where there's a monolith of races, right?
Can I ask you a question?
So, the undertones... The undertones that I'm feeling from you right now are... When is it... When does black...
People of color take responsibility.
Why are black women overweight?
Why are men locked up in prison?
These are the things that you're amplifying, right, in our conversation because you're saying all of these things.
No.
That's not what I'm saying.
Okay, then that's how I accept.
That's how you feel.
And at a certain point, I'm not saying I don't care about you.
I don't care how you feel about those statistics that we were discussing.
I wasn't the one who brought up infant mortality rates and maternity death rates.
I think that education is a great tool against discrimination.
It's a great tool against prejudice.
And I think recognizing those statistics and saying, okay, why do we, now I'm not saying that it's I don't disagree with you.
But there's so much more than that.
That's what I'm getting at.
But there are some other issues that if you go, wait, maybe the mortality rate for birthing
mothers is lower because of health complications, comorbidities.
So that's a good, that's a clarification.
I don't disagree.
But there's so much more than that.
I understand, I understand.
But what I'm saying is when you start that it's race, when I was addressing the issue
that it's solely based on race.
And I think that if you look at it through that, in other words, your daughter, I understand
it's a strange debate, said, if you look at it and rattled off reasons for, well, sorry,
I shouldn't say for, because women are black, they X, Y, Z.
I think that's not because they're black.
There are other, there are other compounding factors.
Is that fair?
What's important is, I think that that's fair, but I also think that the baseline, it's not 100% because of any color, right?
I think the baseline, because of history, all of the things that have compounded on each other leave us where we are.
No, that's the thing.
I do think that individual choice and responsibility is the biggest component to that.
Certainly bigger than race.
I do.
That's my opinion.
Let me explain.
Let me go from the heart.
He's not going to listen to that, Mom.
He's only about facts.
You know that, right?
I know that you're about facts, but I want to go from the heart.
And I want you to hear me.
We are.
I know you think it's not going to work, but if he chooses to air this without our consent, hopefully he airs this part because I want you to understand.
I'm listening.
Us being where we are and my kids in great schools and going off to college and successful children and a two-parent household and all of that.
When we go into the inner city and we do work.
We volunteer.
And we volunteer and I'm listening to the other kids.
One boy told me, I didn't know, and this is education, I didn't know that college was an option.
I didn't know that smoking weed is not what people don't, that's what we do every day because that's what he sees.
That mom, that was her parent, mother and father before.
That parent was that mother and father before.
So because they're in this level of the same thing, In a school that's a Title I school that's not giving them the education that the other schools are giving them, this becomes a cycle that they don't even know how to get out of.
I didn't come from that.
My grandfather is a biologist.
I'm third, fourth generation college.
I didn't come from that.
So seeing that and understanding that, even as an affluent black woman, seeing that our inner city kids don't know how to get out, don't have the education to get out, and that is so powerful.
And that's the main issue.
And it's heartbreaking.
It's heartbreaking.
That's the issue.
It's education.
They're not getting it.
It's exposure.
It's not education because they go to school every day, right?
And they're not being exposed outside of that.
Education isn't working.
No, it's not.
It's not working.
Because their education is not the education that she's getting.
So it's exposure.
Someone going into the inner cities and saying, your life can be different, let me show you.
Let me send you away to a camp that says you're on a college campus for the summer and this is what this could potentially look like.
Your life does not have to be this.
It's us really diving in and going in and exposing our kids to different.
And I think two things.
I agree with you, and that's why we're out here.
It's incredibly heartbreaking.
And I understand what you're discussing.
You know, coming from, my father was raised in Detroit, the bad area of Detroit, right?
He was there when they did the first cross-district busing integration system, and it didn't go well.
They had the Detroit riots, right?
People had it worse.
Friends, dads, who were black, who were cops, had to go home in unmarked cars.
They were being shot by other black men who were snipers on rooftops.
It was a horrible war zone.
He lived through it.
And I understand the statistical reality and how unbelievably hopeless it is for a lot of people, by the way.
And certainly black kids in inner cities, okay?
I agree with all of those things.
Now, I would just make two points, and allow you to just, for a moment, consider that this isn't coming from white privilege, but that it's a space in which I work, and maybe I am well-read enough to propose a solution that I think we could all at least take a step toward.
Okay.
One is, I think, school is not gonna—we both agree, school isn't fixing it.
Nope.
Okay.
Now, we have to agree that it's not because of money, because these schools get the same amount of money, if you look at it.
They don't.
They do.
Per-pupil spending is—okay, let's— We're talking about public schools.
Let's assume that I'm not lying about that.
But let me, can I just finish, please?
Let me finish one trail of thought here.
Let's assume that I'm not lying about that.
Okay, let's assume that per-pupil spending is comparable.
Okay, I think the most important thing is going to be the kind of household
that you have created with a husband who you love.
I think that's far more important than school.
And here's, how about this?
How about the idea?
This is one solution that I've always wondered why everyone can't get on board with.
You know, school choice.
And by that I mean a voucher.
I don't mean defunding public education.
I mean rather than forcing a child to go to that school because that's his district, I agree with that.
Okay, I've never... I agree with that 100%.
I agree with that.
that. Okay, I've never I agree with that 100%. I agree with that. Okay. It's like if they
don't have a comment. Do you know why it's been shut down in the government? No. Because
it's racist. The government's kind of, I don't, the government has like a whole conversation.
We have been told that that is racist for what you just said.
Maybe some black kids don't have parents with cars.
But the point is, at least some choice is better than no choice.
And I come from Canada.
I agree with that.
That's a policy that almost anybody could agree.
I think the government itself has a lot of issues.
I think anybody in America who has a brain can see that the government has issues.
And it's not serving the people, but it's serving the people who love it.
School vouchers.
There's common ground.
Yeah, I agree with that.
That's a good thing to have in a court.
Yeah, I agree with that 100%.
The pushback I face on that is, that's racist.
Yeah, that's not.
Well, that's the pushback on a national level from the Democratic National Committee.
That's very interesting.
And that's because also, there's money tied behind schools.
There's funding.
So all that goes back down to the system of racism.
A system that doesn't work.
The system that doesn't work.
My only disagreement there would be, in other words, I don't think that schools in South Dallas with black teachers, with black principals, I don't think that they're racist.
I think that there's no accountability in the public school system.
I agree with that.
I don't think it's racist.
I agree with that.
I'm just gonna say, I think that the reason they're saying that it's racist, because it's obviously not, right?
I think it's because they probably have some other, like, financial reasoning behind it that's prohibiting you, and I think that's the biggest issue in America, or not the biggest, I think one of the biggest issues in America today is that our People up high are not doing what they need to do to help the people down below.
You know what I mean?
I would certainly agree that we have a problem with government not representing their constituency and not acting in the best interest of the people.
Completely.
And I certainly would say that is true of the public education system.
And I think it's failed all children, particularly, yeah, children in the black community.
It has not served them well.
It's not just children in the black community.
It's people of color.
It's children everywhere too.
It's Hispanic.
It's black.
It's Asian.
It's everywhere.
If it's a little white kid that is at a Title I school, he's still getting that same education.
I agree.
It's a class issue.
It's across the board.
It's the educational system problem.
That's across the board, yes.
That I agree.
Right, but the idea behind school choices.
So they would say school vouchers, and this is why I say this, because I think it's one of those things where I've never heard an argument against it that was valid, is sure, maybe, and I get this, and we go back to the idea of a family, right?
Let's say it's a black boy who doesn't have a father who will drive him to another school, right?
He's going to be more disadvantaged than someone who does have two parents, right?
He is distinctly more disadvantaged right now by being a byproduct of what you said, and I agree with, his immediate environment.
In other words, right now, where black children are disproportionately negatively affected is they have no choice, and so the school is a byproduct of the environment, and it's not worked.
And so having the option to go anywhere else, and I say this because I'm from Canada, that's where I was raised.
Where I went to public school.
I was not raised in a wealthy household.
I was raised in a three-bedroom apartment with four people, about 900 square feet.
But I did get a much better education.
The reason, I didn't know until I moved to the States, as long as I was willing to get on a bus, I could go to a choice of five different schools.
And I came to the States, and I said, wait a second, you have to go to that school just because it's your zip code?
People said, yeah, it's archaic, it's asinine, and if there's no other common ground, I think that's something that hopefully everyone can at least move toward.
I think that's why, like, private school gives you such a bigger advantage, is because you get to choose where you want to go.
And teachers get fired if they're bad.
They do.
Some do, some don't.
Some do, but more than public schools.
That's true.
It depends on the private school, though, because there are some private schools who will not fire teachers who are, like, horrible people.
Because it's all... It's money.
If the teacher has a parent who's, like, really rich that endorses them, they don't get out.
Right.
Anywhere we go, I think the school system, and we've kind of shifted gears here in this conversation, but no matter what, the school system is just...
I think that black and white and brown and Asian people should all be on this is one area we could all be on the same page as far as reform for public education.
I agree.
This should be a bipartisan issue.
Okay.
I wanted to leave it on a pause because I genuinely do want to hear and listen to you guys and I understand a lot of your points disagree with some but I'm glad that we found something that we can genuinely agree on because that has a real immaterial quantifiable effect on people's lives.
I was born here, so I'm right.
Yeah, I was not.
Well, we get 40 below, so no one fares too well in that either, but yeah, this is wrong.
Eddie and... Carrington.
Carrington.
This is our feature.
It's pretty good.
That's all I can say.
I think there's potential.
Oh, it's pretty good.
It's better than potential.
She's off to an amazing college and is going to do amazing things.
Well, I'm glad that you built a wonderful family and you're supportive of your kids.
I think that's very important.
And honestly, across the board, people don't take it into account enough, regardless of race these days.
That's a beautiful thing.
I mean that.
All right, I apologize.
I guess everyone's perfect and in no need of improvement.
This wasn't entirely fruitless.
Still, you can clearly see the difference between this conversation and all of the others that have taken place in this series, and I'd point out Largely, the difference seems to be that people who haven't had to think critically about their positions or defend them.
If anything, what was said here could be modeled after every single legacy media and white suburbanite talking point.
That being said, I respect anyone willing to take the time to speak and for that, I thank you.
If you'd like to see more of Black and White and the Gray Issues, drop a like, comment, tell me what topics you would like to see most
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