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April 11, 2022 - Louder with Crowder
01:08:48
Biological Men Should Not Compete in Women's Sports (Part 3) | Change My Mind
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Time Text
If you feel like you're a woman and everyone around you is just constantly saying biological man, biological man, biological man.
Doctors.
Doctors.
What?
That's different.
I mean, okay, sorry, let me rephrase that.
♪♪ ♪♪
Welcome back to the final installment of my Change My Mind trilogy, Biological Men Should Not Compete
in Women's Sports.
In part one, we sat down with Isaac, and although we had major disagreements, he proved to be articulate, respectful.
As you saw in part two, we all endured a very dark middle chapter filled with deception, regret, and smug journalism.
Will today's third act find redemption for humanity, or will we once again find ourselves assailed by activist cartoon characters in army surplus jackets with nothing to lose but their dignity, meaning nothing to lose?
Well, here we go!
Our first conversation, again at UNT today, was between me and a student named Hugh.
Hugh's hoping our conversation is more constructive than the one we had in Part 2.
So, Hugh, thanks for sitting down, brother.
I'll hold it, just because sometimes people try and steal expensive microphones.
Yeah, I get it.
You know, just had someone run by and try and throw a milkshake, which I believe was...
I believe it was a woman, though it wasn't very ladylike.
It's just a waste of a damn milkshake, you ask.
I don't know if it's a milkshake, I don't know if it's a Frosty, I don't know if it's some kind of a... Sorry, we just have to... No, I get it.
Every now and then a milkshake can contain concrete or acid because, you know, today's modern left is so tolerant.
We have to run into this.
I'm not saying you, I'm just saying this is what we run into on campus.
No, I get it.
Hugh, thanks for sitting down.
I don't know how familiar you are with kind of what this is at all or what the program is.
I'll give you the brief version.
It's just a way for people to sit down and hopefully rationalize their positions on what are often seen as controversial topics.
Often, we are successful with that.
So, today, obviously, and this is sort of something we had planned before, but now that Leah Thomas just won the NCAA Women's Championship, one of the races, I do not believe that biological men, biological males, should be allowed to compete in women's sports.
Hugh, if you disagree with me, which is why I assume you're sitting down, feel free to make your case and change my mind.
So, I disagree.
I believe that For one thing, I don't think it should matter.
I think it should be about the sport.
I think if you're passionate about the sport, and you're into swimming or whatever, it shouldn't really matter.
But, there is definitely something to be said about... Can I ask you something real quick just before?
What do you mean, it shouldn't matter?
So, it meaning, I don't think it should make a difference whether or not you have a penis, or whether or not you have a vagina, whether or not you participate in women's or men's sports.
So you just believe that there should be no divisions at all?
It should just be all men and women compete against each other?
Not quite.
So here's what I think.
Oh, okay.
So it does matter.
So, my position's a little bit more nuanced than that.
Oh, okay.
Sorry.
If you're born with a penis, right, and you start taking hormone therapy, it changes the way your muscles work.
grow, right? So like after a couple of years or after a couple of months, you know, you're
on estrogen, your muscles change and they start growing like, you know, female muscles
do. And you're not actually given that much of an advantage.
Or you're not, they don't have as much of an advantage as you think they might, you
know?
Are you sure about that?
Well, I guess I'm not sure, but I'm also not sure about anything because I'm a f***ing
mongrel, you know what I mean?
Don't start it off that way.
Then why are you sitting down?
Well, they already know that.
Yeah, but I don't know that.
It's not fair for me to beat up on a quote-unquote f***ing moron.
I'm not trying to... So, okay, I haven't... I don't have scientific peer-reviewed studies at my back.
to quote. That's just as I understand it. You take these hormones, it changes the way
your body works, your body becomes more feminine, you lose that masculine muscle mass that you
might have. And so after a couple of months of hormone therapy, a couple of months or
a year, it doesn't make that much of a difference.
Now what if that was entirely incorrect?
If that were entirely incorrect, then yeah, that would be completely different.
But then I think we need to re-evaluate.
So let's say it's entirely incorrect, it would be different, you mean that males should compete with biological males and biological males should compete with biological females.
Assuming that just a couple months, or even a year, or even two years of the hormone replacement therapy doesn't make that much of a difference.
If it doesn't make that much of a difference, I think that You could make that argument.
But I also think it's more about the sport.
It doesn't make much of a difference.
It doesn't make much of a difference.
I think it's more about the sport.
No, as a matter of fact, two reasons why.
Yeah.
I know you're going to go to a separate argument, but I want to kind of hold you to what you just said because I think maybe we agree.
Because this is something a lot of people don't know.
They've done these studies.
They've conducted them.
And I always make all the references available on the website as this goes up.
After a year, so two points, after a year of hormone replacement therapy, hormone suppression specifically for a man, from a man to a woman, they lose about 5% of their total strength, muscle density, actual volume of muscle.
Okay?
There are also other benefits that remain.
So first off, it's not about testosterone when you're taking it.
Testosterone in utero and testosterone specifically through puberty, it's not just muscle strength.
Anyone who's done strength training or sports knows there's muscle volume, there's muscle strength, there's muscle density, there's fast-twitch muscle fibers, there's slow-twitch muscle fibers.
There's anaerobic capacity, there's VO2 max, there's lung capacity, there's bone density, there's red blood cell count, there's connective tissue strength, ligament strength, which is about 80% higher in men.
And those are not reversible.
As a matter of fact, even after an entire year, after two years, after a year, it's 5% of a loss.
5%.
That's not a big loss.
And you see that, by the way, with, let's use Leah Thomas as an example, and I have a second point.
If you look at Leah Thomas, the man who just won the females swim meet, the 200 meter, 500 meter, placed fifth and won one of the other ones, those times wouldn't have even placed top 500 or top 800.
Talking about, beat the Olympic silver medalist, wouldn't even place top 500 against men.
Reduce that by 5%, it's still not even close.
So, okay.
They still have an unbelievable advantage.
That's why we have men's and women's sports, right?
To try and keep it fair and for the safety of the players.
Second...
Um, not only that, uh, you were saying, if, if, if, your second point there was, I'm trying to remember what it was that you were saying.
Uh, so my second point is that it should be more about the sport.
I think, it shouldn't really matter.
Oh, and also, I should also mention, sorry, that's what I was thinking about, is we have these different, uh, studies.
Also, the IOC doesn't require any hormone replacement therapy whatsoever.
Yeah, that's kinda, that's different.
I think, the big problem right now with We just don't know enough.
There's going to be a lot of experimenting with trying to figure out whether or not trans people can, you know, how to include them in these sports, how to include them in these activities, in these competitions.
How about not experimenting at the cost of biological females?
No, that's definitely, I think if that's the case, it's messed up.
But also, mistakes happen.
I think that Well, there's a difference between mistakes happening and thrusting them upon women.
Because I'm sure that, obviously, I would imagine on college campus, at least somewhat of a feminist, you support women's equal rights.
Yeah?
Yeah.
Certainly women's right to compete fairly and safely.
Right?
We both would.
So let's not thrust an experimentation upon women when all the empirical and anecdotal data that we have thus far shows it's unfair to them.
There's a difference between mistakes happening.
Well, I don't... I haven't looked at all the data.
I haven't, you know, checked out all that stuff.
I can't say whether or not that's true or not.
I do believe in it.
I think if that's the case, yeah, it's totally unfair.
They should totally... Okay.
They should totally fix that.
They should totally, you know, do whatever they need to do.
Do whatever they need to do to make it fair for everyone competing.
Which is what we've always done, which is biological males compete with males, and biological females compete with females.
But I also don't think it's fair to exclude them.
And that's also different, you know, you said yourself... Well, no one's excluding them.
Sorry, well, if you have, you know, people with penises, if we have a penis division and we have a vagina division, doesn't that mean that the trans athletes in the male division and the female division are at a disadvantage, naturally?
Or also, what about the other way around?
Yes, taking steroids.
It's illegal already.
So in other words, these issues already exist.
If you're a male, you can't compete with biological females.
and they compete in the female division, wouldn't that give them more of an advantage?
Yes, taking steroids.
Right.
It's illegal already.
Right.
So in other words, these issues already exist.
If you're a male, you can't compete with biological females, and if you're a biological female,
you're not allowed to take steroids.
Keep those rules.
Then why don't we have a third division for everyone to compete?
I mean, why don't we have a... I'm on board.
How about that?
Would that be fair?
I think that would be fair.
I think that'd be cool.
I just think it's lame that... A third division?
A third division would be great.
Even a fourth and a fifth or fifty-fourth because there are, you know, many genders?
Let's have sixty-nine, why not?
F*** it, who cares?
Okay, so I think you... Here's the thing.
Yeah.
You just said you're a f***ing idiot.
Yeah.
You actually have maintained the most tenable position you have today.
Let me explain to you.
And I don't mean that.
I'm not just shining your ass here.
I don't know why anyone would shine anyone's ass.
I don't know why that's an expression.
You've had your ass shined?
Get a good ass shining today?
You go to the train station, do your shoes?
Sex, the argument that's presented on campus, right, and I don't really agree with this that sex and gender are different because it's a very modern theory and gender was a grammatical term, but I think we would both agree that what is taught as transgenderism is sex is biological, gender is societal, right, gender is social.
That's the current status of, that's what's being taught today in gender studies.
Okay.
It's not a position that can be argued, if you say gender and sex are different, to then say also you can identify as a biological female.
What you just said is actually remarkably consistent, that, okay, have a third division, because this is a gender issue, it's not a biological issue.
And like you're saying, even though it sounds absurd to you, and it sounds absurd to me, if you say 69, however many genders, the truth is, if gender is separate from sex, Then we would have to maintain that sports, male, female, men's, women's divisions are separated by sex, by biology.
It's the only fair way to do it.
It's the only fair shake that women get.
And then if people identify as a different gender, I'm fine doing a third category and I'm genuinely, I'm okay doing a fourth and fifth category if they want to do that.
So we say that's a fair Compromise?
Yeah, I think that's what, I mean, it's honestly, it should be more about the sport, you know?
It should be about the integrity of the activity that you're doing.
It should be about the athletes.
It should be about the people who actually care about it, you know?
Yeah.
It shouldn't just be about trying to win.
Like, and granted, I don't think that, you know, Leah Thomas or whatever, I don't even, honestly, I don't follow sports.
I didn't even know that, you know, that was happening.
But it's not about just, you know, trying to get a gold medal, you know?
It's about swimming.
It's about, it's about moving your damn arms in the water.
It's about kicking your legs.
It's, it shouldn't be about, Well, sports are about winning.
I mean, yes, sports are definitely about winning.
But it should be about the competition.
It should be about, you know, the integrity of the sport.
And as long as that's being maintained, that's cool.
I agree with you.
There's no integrity in beating up on women.
Exactly.
But we need to find a way to include trans people in that.
We need to find a way to include them in that.
Because honestly, they just want to live their lives.
They just want to compete in these sports like anyone else.
And if they don't have an outlet to do that, if the only way that Leah Thomas can compete and feel like herself is by competing in the female
division, well then yeah, it is unfair.
But it's also unfair to her to say, you know what, you can't compete, sorry.
Your life as a swimmer is over.
Your life as an athlete, no longer.
Is it unfair to a heavyweight to say you can't compete at bantamweight?
Biology is biology and sports are separated by biology.
That's not unfair.
It would be unfair to say you can't eat at a diner.
It would be unfair to say you can't rent at this apartment because you're trans.
It's not unfair to say you can't compete in the biological women's division.
We just made a lot of progress, now you're going back on it with a different gender division, I agree with.
It's a little bit different, I think, than having a heavyweight compete in a featherweight.
Trans people, they're biologically different.
I mean, if we're talking about biology, when you take these hormones, it does have an effect on your body, but there isn't even a trans lead.
There isn't even a lead for Leah Thomas.
So what should she have done?
There is a lead for Leah Thomas.
It's the men's swimming division.
But that's not quite true.
And Leah Thomas wasn't that good as him.
Leah Thomas is a male.
I don't believe that.
Leah Thomas is a biological male.
Leah Thomas was born with a penis, and that would mean yes, biologically, that she was born as a man.
Leah Thomas was born with a penis, an XY chromosome.
Leah Thomas had more testosterone and overall sex hormones in utero.
Leah Thomas went through puberty, which defines bone density.
Defines ligament strength.
Defines VO2 max.
Defines red blood cell count.
Defines contractile strength of muscular tissue.
Leah Thomas went through all that and Leah Thomas was competing as a male up until only a couple years ago.
Just like Fallon Fox was a male who fathered children and then two years later shattered a woman's orbital bone.
Come on, that's not fair.
No, but it's not quite fair to say that she is biologically just as male as you or me, right?
Because after taking estrogen and after taking all that stuff, it did affect her.
I mean, you said it yourself, right?
There's at least a 5% change, right?
Which is far less than the difference between, for example, a heavyweight and a light heavyweight.
The point is the difference is so radical.
It's so radical between, come on, this is one thing too, between men and women.
There might be a radical difference between men and women, but I think there's also a radical difference between trans women and biological men, and people who are biological men that identify as biological men.
Physiologically?
No.
No one's argued that up until very recently.
You believe that someone who identifies... So, if tomorrow I start identifying as a woman, you believe that biologically I'm different than most of the men here?
No, but I think you'd be an asshole, because that's not how transgenderism works.
Yes, it does.
That's exactly what's happened.
That's what happened with Mary Gregory, a female powerlifter.
That's what happened with Janae Kroc, a male-to-female powerlifter.
There's a documentary on Amazon called Transformers.
A Transformer.
Yeah, Michael Bay, crappy one, Transformers.
Transformers, what I believe it is, was Matt Krokoszynski, some Polish name I can't pronounce, then became Janae Marie.
And dominates in women's divisions.
You see this with female powerlifters.
You see it with male-to-female transgender powerlifters.
You see it in cycling.
Records being set.
Yes, I could do that.
I could, in one year's time, it would be the exact same scenario as Leah Thomas.
Identify as a woman.
And in many sports, two weeks' time.
According to the International Olympic Committee, I wouldn't have to undergo any hormone replacement therapy at all and just say, I'm a woman.
How do you know?
Well then that's just something that needs to be regulated.
That's just a rule that needs to be added.
That's something that needs to be accounted for.
But I also think it's a little disingenuous to say, oh yeah, I'm a man and now tomorrow I'm a woman and I'm going to compete in these women's sports.
That's exactly what Lea Thomas did.
I don't think that's exactly what Leah Thomas did.
On the biological frame of reference, yes.
But there's a lot more to sports and there's a lot more to life than just biology.
No, not to sports.
To sports, it's about winning and we separate them by biology.
You may not like it, but that's why we separate them.
And that's why I think we both agreed before, if they want to have a third to keep it fair and to keep it safe, We can have sports based on additional genders, but have the traditional, the original sports of male and female, which is separated by biology, to be fair, just like weight classes, just like age brackets.
And then if someone wants to identify a different way, we'll say, well, in order that we protect women, and also you not feel marginalized, you can compete in a third division.
Well, I think that's where this disconnect is.
I still believe that.
I absolutely believe that.
But I also don't think that there's no way that a trans athlete can compete right now in a trans division.
And so for Leah Thomas, I feel bad for her because if she wants to compete, there's no trans league for her to compete.
But do you feel bad for the woman?
Do you feel bad for all the women who Leah Thomas beat?
Do you feel bad for the 80 plus women who have now lost out on scholarships and international rankings?
Yeah!
Of course I feel bad for them, but I feel just as bad for them as I do Leah Thomas.
Because you know what?
At the end of the day, I don't know any of those women just like I don't know Leah Thomas.
And I think that we should consider everyone's ability to compete.
We should consider everyone's, you know... So then what's the solution?
Well the solution is, for this Leah Thomas situation, I don't f***ing know.
I'm not involved in swimming, I don't know if they need to have a different... What's the solution for men and women sports, male and female sports, which has always been separated by biology, it cannot be changed no matter how many hormones you take, what's the solution?
Continue going with what we have done to ensure the safety and equal opportunity of women, that's why Title IX exists, or upend all of it so that we don't hurt some people's feelings?
It's not just black.
It shouldn't be so black and white.
It shouldn't just be this or that.
Then what is the solution?
A solution?
Have a trans league.
First of all, have a trans league.
Have more divisions where more people can compete.
F**k it.
Why don't we just have an augmented league where you can have robot legs, you know?
Let's just see how far we can push the human body.
We actually do have that.
We actually do.
There was a guy at the South African who had no legs and he had those bent back paper clips that he ran on.
And then he killed his girlfriend.
Yikes.
Well, I mean, you know, I think that... You don't remember that story?
I don't remember that story.
It was running around, it looked like he was from that Sector 9 movie, like those prawns.
He was running around in these little, like, bent-back metal paperclips.
And then people were complaining that he had an unfair advantage.
And they're like, well, he doesn't have any legs.
And it's like, well, yeah, but those are basically mechanical at that point.
But then also, if he wanted to compete, how could he?
There's no, you know, mechanical thing to compete, you know.
You don't get to.
That's kind of lame.
That's lame to the sport.
That's lame to the activity.
That does a disservice to people who want to participate in these activities.
I want to set a bench press record.
I want to set a world bench press record.
Can I use a crane?
I think you're going about the sport wrong if you're just trying to break a record, because there's a lot more involved in breaking records than that.
Not to these women who are afforded scholarships and coaching jobs, right?
Right.
We have to acknowledge that's important.
It's not fun to be an NCAA, you know, it's not fun to be a silver medalist at the Olympics like the lady who had to play second.
It's a tough, tough life.
Right.
And then you're ripping it from them because someone who was a middling to low-end male swimmer decided, I'm going to be a woman next year.
I don't think that's fair, and I don't think it's looking out for the best interests of women.
But I also think it's unfair.
You're talking so much about women, and you're talking so much about the rights of these people, but what about the trans people?
Do they not also have rights?
Are they not also humans that breed just like us?
I don't think that it's a right to compete in sports.
That's what we're talking about.
If we're just talking about sports, yeah.
It's a little unfair.
If they want to take a dump at a Target in a muumuu with some eye makeup, I don't care.
The hatred with which you speak about them... What hatred?
The way that you talk about them, it's not respectful to them.
How have I spoken about them that's disrespectful?
I just don't think they should be allowed to beat up on women or beat women at sports.
No, that's fair, but is there not an underlying... What do you think about trans people as a group?
Do you hate them?
No, of course not, I don't hate them.
Of course not, I don't hate them.
No, I don't hate them at all.
I feel sorry for many of them.
In what way do you feel sorry for them?
Well, I think that we're dealing with a demographic that, now we're getting off of the topic here, but I think we're dealing with a demographic that has a 19 times the suicide rate of the general population.
That's a 42% attempt at suicide rate.
And I don't think that denying the realities, the constraints of biology, And the human condition is helping them.
I think that we're actually putting many of them, and especially when you involve hormone replacement therapy, and when we know what estrogen does to the male body, when we know what excess estrogen does to the female body, we are, in an attempt to coddle them, rather than seek assisting them, we're putting them into a shallow, young, cancerous grave.
So then do you think that transgender, or being trans, is a disease more than it is a lifestyle choice?
No, I don't think it's a disease.
I think that you would have to look at a very, very strong, not only correlation, but causation, because you would look at both pre- and post-op, the suicide rate doesn't improve.
The attempted suicide rate is about 41-42% pre-op.
It's about 41-42% post-op.
The mental health issues are through the roof.
uh... the regrets upon transitioning even though very few than actually do
go through with the bottom surgery for replacement therapy is very very hot
so uh... i think we have to look at that and say okay why is this happening
in this community and how do we actually more effectively address that
than just say however you identify compete that way and uh... we used to
say gender and sex were different but now will allow them to be one of the
same in sports i don't think it's productive
it honestly for me it breaks my heart because i think about the fact that you
know the suicide rate is super high So many of them are killing themselves.
So many of them are so unhappy.
Part of that's because society hates them because of the way that so many people treat them.
I mean, if you feel like you're... I think that's part of it.
I think there's certainly a mental health aspect of it.
But I also think that if you feel like you're a woman, and everyone around you is just constantly saying
biological man, biological man, biological man.
Like doctors.
Doctors. What? That's different. I mean, okay, sorry, let me rephrase that.
I don't think that it's fair to only think about the rights of women in sports
without also talking about trans mental health.
I mean, there's so much that goes into all of these issues.
No, I agree.
I agree, but I think they're separate issues.
I think that biological men, we both agree, biological males should not be allowed to compete with biological females.
And sure, we can address the mental health issues.
You know, it's interesting that you bring up, I don't agree with the premise that it's because society hates them.
I don't agree with it because, matter of fact, minorities in this country, minorities historically, have a lower rate of suicide, right?
Black people have a two and a half times lower rate of suicide than white individuals.
Suicide, I don't know if you know, is almost entirely a middle-aged white male problem.
Also, I don't believe that they have it worse than Jews and Auschwitz because that's a 25% attempted suicide rate.
Do we believe that a transgender individual in 2022, because they can't set another women's swim meet record, is going to attempt suicide because they have a worse life than Jews in Auschwitz, they have a worse life, they're being treated worse in society than American slaves.
Nowhere else, nowhere else can you find this high of an attempted suicide rate outside of people with severe psychiatric conditions that we address.
And in this case we're saying, well no, rather than addressing someone, let's say who's paranoid schizophrenic, we're going to say no, those delusions are real.
That's what we're doing right now.
That's why the suicide rate is so high.
That's why it doesn't get better after treatment.
It's a very heartbreaking reality.
We've tried it this way now for a couple of decades, and it hasn't yielded good results.
It's yielded worse results.
So then you do think that transgenderism is a disease?
I mean, or do you think...
I think they, by their own declarations, there is rampant mental health issues in the transgender
community, right?
They have said that they...
But you think it's a disease.
You think it's something that needs to be ironed out.
You think that they just need to figure out how to feel happy in their body?
I think that if someone is biologically a male, I think right now, you're a man, right?
And I can tell that you're a man.
You can tell that I'm a man.
We don't need to do all the college doublespeak here.
I think for you to look down right now at your penis, and for you to go through with what it takes to cut that off, I want you to, this is a mental exercise, I want you to think about for a second, what kind of a mental place you would need to be in to hate your penis so much that you have it cut off and turned into a non-functioning vagina for the rest of your life.
Which, by the way, will very likely prevent you from ever achieving sexual climax again.
To think of the mental state that you would have to be in.
Genuinely, put yourself there.
That's not a healthy place to be mentally.
I don't know if it's as black and white as that.
I think there's a gray area where it's not just about, you know, cutting off your penis.
It's about feeling better in your own body.
It's about, if you look at yourself in the mirror, you know, and you look at your f***ing cock and you're like, oh man, I just, I can't live with this thing.
It doesn't feel like me.
Who am I to say, you know what, you can't go ahead and cut it off?
I mean, who are we to stop them from doing that?
I'm not saying you can't.
Right, I'm not saying you can't.
I just don't think it's fair to characterize it as hateful for me to say that seems pretty severe.
It seems extreme, but that also just shows how uncomfortable they feel in their body.
I mean, I can't imagine looking at myself every day and just not feeling like Myself.
I mean, if you had to live every day inside someone else's body and never feel like yourself, that's, that's hell.
Well, it's your own body.
Well, okay.
It is your own body.
You just believe it's someone else's body.
If it doesn't feel like your own.
If you're unhappy with it, if you're so, if you're, I mean, if it's so bad that you are talking about, you know, changing your body, getting bottom surgery, it's, it's, it is a bad mental state, but it's also.
Good.
We agree.
It's a bad mental state, but not in the same way that, And it's not corrected by going through with the transition.
It gets slightly worse.
I think that's on an individual case-by-case basis.
No, statistically.
And I think it depends.
The attempted suicide rate stays the same post-op.
And again, it's double that of Jews and Auschwitz.
Right.
And I think that matters.
I think that matters because people will throw out the moniker as you did, you know, hate.
There's no hate.
Just like I've had people in my family who, you know, have struggled with severe bipolar disorder.
I don't hate them when I say, look, you're not seeing things clearly.
I've had to do that.
I've had to have interventions and say, this is not accurate.
It's clouded by your mental health condition.
Not a disease, there's a difference between a psychiatric condition and a disease.
An actual disease state.
And I think to mischaracterize that as hate is also what creates this bully pulpit that causes real harm to women in women's sports.
And look, I think you care about people.
I would appreciate, though I don't demand, that you maybe recognize that I do as well.
I just have a different approach to it and different solution to it.
And I believe that women need to be defended just as much Just as much as other people do.
And I think we agree on the third division.
I agree.
I don't think that you're a hateful person, but I think that your efforts to help and fix the trans community are misguided.
And I think that your efforts could be better spent helping them.
With the platform that you have, with the audience that you have, you could do so much to make their lives better.
In a way that, you know, in a way that you don't have to advocate for them, Well, I think we have a pretty big voice right now, as we see.
Women of the year, right?
We have trans there.
Female admiral, not woman admiral, female admiral Rachel Levine just had a man, a transgender woman, sorry, biological male, transgender woman, just win a medal at the NCAA swim meet.
And today I'm choosing to use my voice for the Overwhelming majority of female athletes who often sort of get silenced.
That's fair, but how often do you choose your voice to talk about suicide translating?
I just did.
I just did.
That was through something else.
Yeah, I just did.
We've done that.
We've done their only two gender exchange online.
That's a separate discussion.
But today we're specifically talking about sports.
But thank you, brother.
It's freezing.
Get some hot packs or something.
Thanks, Hugh.
There you have it.
While Hugh and I didn't find a lot of common ground, I appreciate that he was able to actually sit down and listen to an opposing point of view while presenting his own.
If you want to learn more about this channel's point of view, be sure to subscribe, and most of all, just tune in to The Daily Show, Monday through Thursday, live at 10 a.m.
Eastern.
They can't all be change my mind, mostly due to the security costs, but live weekday morning shows is the next best thing.
See you tomorrow.
Back to the topic at hand, of course, The college campus is filled with many a strange beast, as you've all well seen.
However, there are a lot of great people that come out to change my mind, and this day was no exception.
We came across a number of kind and intelligent students, and some of them, like this young lady, even offered some valuable insight.
Fair enough.
Thank you for your contribution, sweetheart.
Next up, and our final interview, we have our boy Jackson.
Let's close this one on a strong note.
Jackson, don't know how familiar you are at all with kind of what this segment is or what
it is that we do, but it's the opportunity to hopefully rationalize our positions on
what are sort of controversial topics.
What I've noticed is people will often have rational discussions on topics that are maybe
inconsequential and something that, you know, evokes a visceral or emotional response, it
goes out the window.
And unfortunately, on college campus, college campuses across the country, you often are
only presented with one point of view.
And so hopefully this allows people to be able to expose themselves to different points
of view.
So today, obviously, this is something we were planning to talk about for a while.
And then we just had the NCAA swim meet this last weekend.
So now it's a hot button issue.
I don't believe that biological males should be allowed to compete with women.
In sports.
Sure.
If you disagree with that, I'd love to hear your case.
You're more than welcome to change my mind.
I could try.
I find it interesting as well that when you come to college campuses, it is, you know, usually biased in one direction.
In recent times, this campus has been a little bit more mixed.
I'm sure you came here because of the recent news.
What do you mean it's biased in one direction?
Usually, a campus is, depending on a geographical location, is going to be biased in a political direction, left or right.
Well, it's always left.
Depends.
What college campus would you give me an example of that's biased right?
I mean, we're in Texas, man.
Yeah, I can't think of one.
I mean, the only one I can think of really in the country would be A&M, and even then, when you look at professors and stuff like that, it's pretty... A&M definitely is conservative.
I didn't mean to interrupt you, but... No, no, that's fine.
A&M definitely is conservative, but, you know, there's a large... the mass majority of Texas is, you know, country towns.
I came from a little country town.
My high school graduation class was 200 people, so it's like... I gotta tell you, I've never gone to a college campus and experienced conservative bias.
Statistically, that's almost non-existent.
I can give you the least schools you should go to, because you would love them.
Like private Christian colleges, I can imagine, but... No, no, no, public schools.
Public colleges.
Really?
In the state of Texas.
That are conservatively biased.
A&M is definitely one.
Texas Tech, definitely one.
You know, Raider Rash is their thing, so... Okay.
Either way, it's besides the point.
No, no, look, it's not something that I've experienced.
There's a lot of people that think just like you.
Well, that's not really where I go to visit.
That's why I visit places like UT and places like UNT.
Well, UT's a little bit mixed, too.
UT Austin?
UT Austin's pretty damn liberal.
Yeah, UT Austin's pretty liberal.
No, I prefer to actually have conversations with people from opposing points of view.
That's kind of one of the things that we do, because I don't really like an echo chamber, left or right.
So, yeah, I know it would be really easy for me to sit down with nothing, but as a matter of fact, today we haven't had a single conservative sit down.
Yeah.
And that's because we give the right of way to people who disagree.
I mean, there are conservatives here.
No, there are.
I see what you mean.
There are, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Now, of course, we're not going to have someone who tried to throw a, you know, a, whatever it was, a frozen latte or milkshake.
Somebody threw something at you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right there.
You see?
Oh, I see.
It's a waste of a good Frosty.
Well, either way.
I don't know if it's a Frosty or not, but... I haven't acted violently or anything.
No, I appreciate it.
I like a good conversation.
Well, good.
So I'm sure you would condemn the violence and the disruption as well.
It definitely is not necessary.
Yeah, it's not.
I don't even know what this guy's doing either with the Yoda thing.
He's just doing him.
I don't know.
That's definitely a probe to see where I'm at.
I don't know what radical trans liberation now means, but okay.
I'm not sure either.
It's a little bit of a mixed message.
I appreciate that you and I can find some common ground on that.
I would almost argue it's nonsensical.
A Yoda mask and radical trans liberation now?
I don't know what inference to make, and he won't speak, so it's not like I'm going to be able to figure it out.
He's just doing it.
He's just, well, he's just being a little bit of a p***.
But, yeah, I don't think that biological males should be able to compete with women.
Biological women in female sports.
What do you disagree with on that, and how would you want to change that?
I think, as a whole, that issue...
It's only in the current times.
Our world is changing every day.
And especially on this campus, you can see a lot of different opinions and views and different people doing what they want to do.
And I don't feel that that affects me in any way.
When it comes to sports, it's a little different.
I think this time in history is very special because we are so connected.
We've been connected for a few decades now, but at this point, really, we're exploring that connection even more.
What do you mean by connected?
The internet.
Okay.
So just this connection.
I think there could be a strong case that we're not very connected.
I don't know if you've been on Twitter lately.
Oh, I have.
I don't feel warmly connected to my fellow man.
But no, I agree with your point.
Not, you know, connected, it doesn't always have to be positive.
Yes, exactly.
We can be connected in assholeishness.
Yeah, sure.
Sure.
Yeah, I have free speech, but Twitter's a little different.
Either way.
Yeah.
I think... It's Satan's rectum, Twitter.
Interesting.
Okay, well, either way.
Figuratively.
Sports are different.
I think this time, everything's changing every day.
I think sports, at one point, there shouldn't be gender involved.
I feel like it should just be... Well, it's not involved.
Gender's not involved in sports.
How do you mean?
It's sex.
Yeah.
Are you saying that gender and sex are the same thing?
No, I misspoke.
But sure, sex.
I'll replace that.
Well, I'm not trying to correct you.
Actually, I appreciate that you're being consistent because I have had people sit down today and say that sex and gender are the same thing.
I'm not 100% sure.
The news is changing every day.
So, I'll go with sex for now.
As long as... Well, that's what gender theory is, right?
That's what modern gender studies is.
And this goes back to Simone de Beauvoir and Judith... Biological sex is what you mean.
It goes through John Money, Judith Butler.
And by the way, these people who believe that gender was a social construct, they still believe that people could maybe be Man or woman within the societal construct, but it was always within a binary.
You're only talking about the 1990s when that changed this idea that there could be many different genders.
But even on this campus right now, in your gender studies classes, they teach that gender is societal, social construct, and sex is biological.
That is the current curriculum.
Interesting.
And I just want to make sure that we're clear on that.
No, listen to me.
I think that what you were saying is consistent, so I actually do appreciate that.
Yeah, I'm consistent as is Keith, I don't know.
Either way, sports, right now, there's not a lot, there's a lot happening, is what I'm saying.
Either way, in a few years, I'd like to see just, and not based on gender or sex or anything, it's just, this is basketball, we all play, you know what I mean?
I know you might think I'm crazy, but I mean... No, I don't.
I just think that you just ended women's sports forever.
No, no, exactly not.
The issue is not in... I see what you mean.
The biological differences in male... Yeah, women wouldn't be able to compete ever.
They would just lose at every sport.
With the exception of shooting sports.
I think there should be... I'm not a professional, obviously.
I'm not well-versed in this field.
I'm not... I'm only in, you know, a few sports.
Either way, this...
This sports issue, I feel like it's just a topic to grab onto that are happening right this second.
It wouldn't be happening in a few years.
Maybe we would figure something else out.
What do you mean in a few years?
How would we figure it out?
There would be some discussion here.
Well, that's what we're having.
Exactly right now.
Discussion.
But you just...
I'm not trying to be a smart-ass here, but correct me if I'm wrong, I just heard you say that it's just everyone playing together.
Sure.
Yeah, that's what I said.
Okay, so that's what you think we should move toward?
Sure.
And you understand that that would... I think that's an option.
You understand there are no more female athletes?
I think that male and female are equal.
I know there are biological differences in strength and that kind of thing.
Well, that's what sports are about.
Exactly, I understand that.
But, these sports aren't always going to be, you know, the rules change every day.
That kind of thing?
The NBA's rules are not the same as 10 years ago, 20 years ago.
There's new rules at every point in time.
So I feel like we would be able to figure something else out.
It wouldn't just be one issue changing at the same time.
We would combine the sports.
There would also be new legislation inside of the, if that's the right word for it, inside of the NBA or any sports category.
To try and make it so that women could compete?
Sure.
How would you, for example, let's take the NFL.
Let's take, I don't know if there is women's contact football, honestly.
Yeah, there is.
There is?
Yeah.
Okay.
Let's take, well you know what, let me take an example, not to be anecdotal, but I'm taking an example that has actually taken place because there haven't been that many, you know, intersex sporting matches.
But what does take place pretty regularly, and it's a non-contact sport, soccer.
So the Women's National Soccer Champions, have you seen this?
No, I haven't.
Yeah, it's like the Women's, I don't know if it's the National Soccer Champions or like the Women's World Cup winners will regularly play high school boys and lose.
Interesting.
So what rule sets do you think you could, rather than just going with, right, what we have, which is male and female sports for the safety and fairness of the players, right?
It's to protect the players and to protect their opportunities.
I feel like that one is the better one.
Well, okay, what would we change as far as rules that would somehow offer women who have not only less strength, not only less muscle mass, not only higher body fat, not only lower bone density, not only 80% lower connective tissue strength, not only less lung capacity, not only lower VO2 max, not only a lower red blood cell count, Not to mention general height and dimensions.
What rule changes do you think could possibly be implemented, for example, in soccer, wrestling, basketball, football, swimming, that would allow an even playing field for biological women?
I like that you're trying to bombard me with all these topics, but I'll pick one.
Well, I'm just saying, look, we know that men... No, I understand what you're saying.
Do we disagree that biological males have a significant athletic advantage over biological females as a general rule?
Biological male and female are separate.
They're different, but that doesn't have to occur.
I'm saying with time, there could be medical advancements to change how the male and female bodies work.
That's exactly what biological females who are claiming to be men, that's exactly what they're taking.
called steroids. That's a little different. No it absolutely is. That's exactly what
what biological females who are claiming to be men, that's exactly what they're taking.
Claiming to be? Yeah.
Trans men.
Yeah, they're taking steroids.
I see.
You do know that, right?
Yeah, they take hormones.
Yeah.
As well as steroids.
Anabolic.
Hormones.
Steroids are illegal.
Currently.
Right.
I'm trying to make the point of, in time, we never know.
Maybe they should all be legal.
Let the games begin.
Everyone is on steroids.
Yeah.
They all die very young because of cancer.
Yeah, exactly.
I'm not saying the current steroids.
I think you see what I'm saying.
With time, this could all happen.
Okay, but we're today, 2022.
It's not possible.
We just had someone who was a biological male, who is a middling to low-end male swimmer, who just won first place, who just beat out a silver medalist.
Very hard to get a silver medal, by the way.
Beat a female silver medalist.
Sure.
With a time that wouldn't even rank top 500 against men.
The point you're making, I understand it completely.
It would not apply in the future.
It may not apply in the future.
That's exactly right.
But it certainly applies today.
So what do we do today?
Can't do anything today.
Well, at least I can.
So, but will we agree then today that we need to continue with ensuring the safety and fairness for players, specifically for female athletic opportunities?
I believe that just like how there is in states like California, there's testing with marijuana use in different areas.
And the state government is governing that rather than the federal government, and the federal government is letting it as a test run.
Same kind of thing.
Sports right now, it's kind of just a test run.
There's no offense to any athletes whatsoever, but everyone's trying their best.
We always have.
But I feel that we've got to have some test runs to figure this stuff out.
We can't just argue about it right now.
Well, I understand what you're saying and I appreciate your idea, you know, sort of presenting the idea of federalism to sports.
That's not lost on me.
That being said, we have the empirical evidence, you know, the evidence like I just presented as far as the difference in physiology.
That doesn't change.
Maybe many years from now it'll change.
We can't do anything right this second.
By the way, his wife was a horrendous bitch.
She took his whole wallet when he was giving her that cash.
She takes the wallet and doesn't even give him enough gas money to get home.
Especially now, knowing what we know about gas prices today, what do you think they're going to be in the Jetsons future?
I digress.
I mean, I love the Jetsons.
I do too.
I love every character, but I wouldn't tell anyone a bitch.
Okay, well I think Mrs. Jetson, at the very least, she's pushing the envelope there.
I think that's theft.
Uh, and also that robot maid.
That robot maid.
Come on.
I'm telling you, that's the future.
Yeah, that's the future.
I mean, if you compare that to the future, we have no idea what's going to happen tomorrow.
But, uh, we have no idea, but we know what's happening today.
So there's the empirical data, which is all these differences that, obviously, the male athlete benefits from biologically.
That's undeniable.
Um, and then there's the anecdotal.
Well, we have Leah Thomas, but that's not the only example.
You have men who've then switched, biological males who've then switched to females, who've set records in cycling, who've won track, right?
I think in track it's, for example, let's say it's 1% of the population.
It might be 1 to 1.6% of the athletic student body that are trans, but they will, in certain sports, dominate 66% of the top spots.
90% in powerlifting, right?
Mary Gregory was a powerlifter, set these all-time records for women.
There's cycling, there's swimming like we've just discussed, there's powerlifting, there's Olympic weightlifting.
Laurel Hubbard who made it, who won these medals until Laurel Hubbard made it to the Olympics and then due to an injury had to pull out and also was 43, which is not typical of Olympians.
There have been over 80 opportunities, meaning scholarships and international rankings, that have been yanked out from under women today because of this new experiment.
We know that when you allow the biological male to compete against biological women, that it's an unfair playing field today.
And it's not even close.
There are obvious biological differences.
I understand what you're saying.
But I feel as if whether or not they're trans or not is just a current day issue.
Okay.
I think you would agree.
But it is a current day issue.
Exactly.
So what do we do today?
I can't say.
I don't know.
What is the right thing to do?
The right thing to do is... The right thing to do today.
With male and female sports?
I think... I'll get to it real quick.
Okay.
The right thing to do is obviously complicated.
You know, no matter what you do, you're going to annoy someone.
I don't think it's complicated.
I think the first part is... You don't think it's complicated?
No, I think you'll annoy somebody, but I don't think it's complicated, as far as the right thing to do.
Would you say that coming to an agreement is always 100% one direction?
Wait, what do you mean?
Coming to an agreement.
Like, say, an election.
Yeah.
It's not usually one way.
Somebody's gonna be mad either way.
Right.
So, in this way, we have to, you know, tread lightly to figure out what would be the right way to go.
Capitulate to less than 1% of the population at the expense of 50% of the population.
Less than 1 to 50?
Yeah, less than 1% being transgender individuals.
By switching up the way that we've done sports, again, which exists... I can't confirm the statistic, but keep going.
Yeah, the highest number I've ever heard is 1.6% of the population is trans.
Sure.
Let's call it one.
Let's call it one to two percent.
Does that sound fair?
One to two percent.
I have no idea of the statistics, so I think... I'll give you a one to two spread, okay?
And some numbers are even lower than that.
So I'm trying to pick the number that I think is most generous.
One point something percent.
But fifty percent of the population are female.
Sure.
And a hundred percent, at least up until recently, of female athletic competitors We're biological females.
So to capitulate here, when we're trying to not offend 1-point-something percent of the population, we are, unfortunately, shortchanging 50 percent.
Women, who want to compete.
Listen, this affects their lives, right?
Scholarships, getting a scholarship, getting an Olympic medal, getting a coaching job.
These things have serious ramifications, right?
Sport is a great way for people.
Particularly those of lower socioeconomic status.
Yeah, exactly.
It equalizes the playing field.
And now we're making that unfair because a certain very small percentage might be offended.
This specific issue would be best talked about by a female athlete or just a female altogether.
I'm a white male.
My input here is not as valuable as a female athlete or a female altogether.
No matter if they're trans or not.
You know what?
I actually agree with you on that.
I actually... Well, I don't agree with you in that you can't have an opinion.
I think your opinion, depending... Sorry, I just touched your leg.
It also gets warm.
It's the only warm thing around here.
Where are you guys usually based?
We're just around Texas, general area.
I keep it ghost-like.
And by the way, that dog is as cute as a button.
It's very distracting to me right now.
What were we talking about this before?
Sorry, that dog was just... What were we talking about?
That's the problem with cute puppies.
It's right in my line of vision.
The marginal differences and then comparing that...
The damn puppy ruined it for the rest of us.
Oh, no, you said that you were a white male.
Oh, yes, exactly.
I think that if your opinion is founded on sound research and data, and it's based in fact, yeah, I think it doesn't matter if you're a white male, and it doesn't matter if you're a black male, it doesn't matter if you're a black female, white trans, I think there's a correct opinion at the end of the day, or there's correct information and there's incorrect information, and sometimes you make an inference based on that.
Now, I do agree with you, however, Women, in many cases, particularly feminists, have said, no vagina, no opinion.
And so they have marginalized the opinions of men on this issue, which is interesting to me, because there's a pretty big spread if you actually look at the polling data.
And I usually don't like to point to polls, except in this scenario, where you're polling female athletes, like their opinions obviously matter.
So if you look at men, generally speaking, if you look at poll after poll, when they ask men, should biological males be allowed to compete in women's sports, men overwhelmingly say no.
Which is interesting because we don't really have a dog in that fight.
No biological female has come over and dominated the men's sports.
It doesn't happen.
It's never happened.
But overwhelmingly, non-female athletes have supported it, saying, sure.
Because women, generally speaking, are empathetic people, right?
They're understanding people.
I think that's a great quality of women.
I believe that's some form of bias, in that form.
Like, I feel like I'm a very empathetic person.
Sure, I think you are, but I think as a general rule, women are more conscientious than most men.
I see what you mean, but I don't agree.
Well, I think if you look at the polling, you know, men are more pragmatic in the sense they go like, well, no, that's not fair.
Men shouldn't be able to compete against women, so they oppose it.
Then you look at women who are not female athletes, they support it.
Then you look at the polling of female athletes, they're against it.
Because most of the feminists who say biological men should be allowed to compete in women's sports don't have a dog in that fight.
All of a sudden, when you pull the female athletes, it's very different.
Yeah, I could see what you mean, but at the same time, my point still stands.
I am not, you know, a woman, and you're not a woman, I don't think, at least.
I wouldn't assume.
You did assume, and you assumed correct.
But okay, either way.
The difference is, we We don't wake up every day as a female.
We don't go through our lives getting catcalled or these kind of things.
These horrendous things.
I'm sure you have a wife or a girlfriend of some form.
And you here, you know, it's not easy.
Sure.
And my life's not that bad.
Like, I can't complain.
There's not a lot of things that I have to deal with because I was born this way.
It's interesting seeing... Was that a Lady Gaga reference?
I like the fact that, but either way, you know, certain things like, this may sound stupid, but I drive a purple truck, okay?
You drive a purple truck?
Yeah, purple truck.
Why's that stupid?
No, I love my truck, it's not stupid.
The point I'm about to make is interesting.
That purple truck makes you a pump!
Interesting.
Purple's a pimp color.
Another one with that.
I love purple.
Keep your pimpin' strong, man.
The point I'm trying to make is I get profiled for driving that vehicle.
So, in my little country towns, you know, I'm profiled because that vehicle's driven mostly by a certain type of people.
Who?
Pimps?
I don't know.
Either way, I get pulled over and... Wait, are you saying that you get profiled because they think it's a black guy or because they think it's a gay guy?
No, it's definitely not either of those.
Either way, on my ticket... Wait, what do you mean it's not either of those?
How are you being profile?
I don't understand.
Listen, on my ticket, I get, as you know, they pull up to me and everything.
They already write the ticket out.
My race is incorrect every ticket I've received.
What race do they write?
Hispanic is the race that they write.
Oh, okay.
Interesting.
So, either way... Is it an El Camino?
No.
That's a little interesting.
Why is that interesting?
Because I wouldn't think purple truck Hispanic.
You're not from a bunch of towns.
Alright.
I assume, at least.
I don't know.
Is it like more of a mauve?
Or are we talking like Joker purple?
It's completely deep purple.
That sounds like a nice truck!
Yeah, it's a beautiful truck.
Either way.
What I'm trying to say is, if I can make a comparison or a metaphor of some form, my purple truck was born how it is, born, you know, in a factory, but I'm not complaining whatsoever, I do not mind, but I have been profiled for that truck.
So if you can make the comparison to a female living in this world... Yeah.
You know, I can't say for sure, but you know, I've had girlfriends, like, it's not easy.
And even more so for someone who is trans, or someone who is non-binary, or someone who is... I was with you up until that last point.
Yeah, I agree with you that it's not easy.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I don't think we should make it harder on women by allowing biological males to kick the shit out of them.
It shouldn't be harder on anyone.
I feel that people should be equal.
People can be empathetic no matter their sex.
People can be whoever they want to be.
And I think the current times are going to change.
People can't be whoever they want to be or whatever they want to be.
I believe they can.
There are biological and physiological limitations to everybody.
There's ethical differences.
Things like murder.
I wouldn't want to be Hitler.
There are biological realities.
There are physical realities.
For example, your height is your height.
Your bone density is your bone density.
You can get a surgery to change your height.
You can get a surgery to change your height, but again we're talking about extreme exceptions to the rule, the general rule.
There are still, and by the way that is still not creating a world in which you weren't designed with biological limitations.
I understand what you're saying, you've managed to use surgical, modern surgical medical advancements to maybe change your height.
It's not the same thing as claiming you weren't born a certain height.
That's where we differ, definitely.
The difference is, you weren't physically that way, but in your mind, you know, you may be something different.
You know, if you decide tomorrow you want blonde hair, are you going to dye your hair?
You know, you weren't blonde, but maybe you could say... But we're not talking about blonde-haired guys competing against... Yeah, but it's not a... I would say it's not a valid comparison when we're discussing... I think, look, I think we're... I appreciate what you're saying.
And I do think that you're right, that there are going to be, as a matter of fact, I've talked about this, if you can live probably another 30, 40 years, you'll be a part of a generation that can live significantly longer, or probably never much longer than 120 years old, but live healthily until your later age.
I mean, even right now, we're seeing this hormone replacement therapy as you get older.
As a matter of fact, that's a big problem.
It's also a problem with transgender hormone replacement therapy, because we know how cancergenic it is.
No, it's not debatable.
We know that if you inject estrogen or you provide excess estrogen to the male endocrine system, that it's not good.
As a matter of fact, do you know what the first thing is if you're a woman with high estrogen levels?
And if you're a woman, you have breast cancer.
First thing they put you on.
I just... Aromatase inhibitors.
Estrogen blockers.
I understand what you're saying.
I thoroughly enjoy that.
I know everyone makes this point, but you do come to college campuses.
You know, I'm pursuing my education.
Well, we do this, by the way, we also do this not on college campuses.
I understand, but you know, the ones that go popular.
The reason you keep coming back is for the college ones.
We actually do just as many on street corners.
I'm sure you do just as many.
But what do we do today in 2022?
With male and female sports?
I cannot say.
I'm not a female.
I'm not transgender.
I'm not, you know, in these sports.
Okay, but let's say an overwhelming majority of females say, it's not fair.
But then transgenders, this is where we are, biological men, biological males who say that they are the woman gender, say, well, I want to compete with biological females.
But the biological females say, no, it's not fair.
What do we do?
I can't say.
These type of rules and things... But there do need to be rules.
Of course there has to be rules to this world.
So what's the solution?
I can't say.
We understand that we can't live in a world where that's the case.
We do have to have rules.
This current world is a testing ground for tomorrow.
Everything we do today is just going to affect how we do tomorrow.
So what do we do today?
Can't say.
Okay, so then I will just say, I'll hang my balls out there, and it's very cold outside, so they're going to be tiny.
Raisinets.
We do it the way we've always done it, and we do it in accordance with what most biological female athletes want.
Biological males, regardless of how you identify, compete with biological males.
Biological females compete with biological females.
I think, I understand exactly what you're saying, and your point could directly be compared to women's suffrage.
You know, males at the time of women's suffrage wanted, you know, They wanted it to be the way it was.
Actually, that's not true.
Did you know that?
I don't believe it.
Yeah.
Did you know that actually it was a majority of women didn't want the right to vote?
Did you know that?
I can't confirm your statistics.
Yeah.
Well, let me explain to you why, actually.
It's very interesting.
I had a lady named Karen Strong on the show, and this is kind of her specialty.
Karen?
Yeah, Karen Strong.
Yeah, I know.
Her name is Karen Strong.
And she is.
She's a feminist.
And the reason for this was, well, first off, women's suffrage, right?
You're talking about women getting the right to vote.
How'd that happen?
Of course, the voice of women to be heard.
No, no.
How did women get the right to vote?
Women's voices were heard.
Okay, how were they heard?
You know I can't answer those questions exactly.
So, you're just trying to embarrass me.
No, I'm really not.
Men were the exclusive right holders to voting, right?
Women were not allowed to vote, right?
Sure.
Okay.
Then, women were allowed to vote.
Sure.
So, there was a change.
Who changed it?
The change was made by the human race.
The change was made by men.
Women didn't have a say in the vote if they could vote, right?
My point is... No, my point is this is a misrepresentation.
This is a misrepresentation that men... Well, no, my point here is this is a misrepresentation and I think it matters because if you don't understand history fully, you're doomed to repeat it.
repeated something. Right. The majority of men said males, we use the term males because
back then of course they wouldn't even have a chip in their brain for modern
gender theory, but men voted to give women the right to vote. The reason
that a majority of women didn't want the right to vote is because a lot of people
don't understand this that historically, now I'm not saying that women shouldn't
have the right to vote, just to be clear, I'm just explaining the historical
context. Voting came with certain responsibilities like the draft, like
owning property, like paying taxes, like bucket duty, which was mandatory
voluntary firefighter service. And women said, oh if that's what we have to do to
vote, we don't want it. And then men had the vote for them to vote and they said,
by the way, you don't have to do any of that stuff, only the men do. So a lot of
people don't understand that. That's a big reason why.
I think that...
Obviously, it changed over time.
There was a testing period, which I would say we were in now, comparatively, and it changed over time to benefit, what I would say, the majority of people.
As it's become normalized now, I mean, how can you say it didn't benefit us?
Nah, I think women strip to vote sometimes.
Interesting.
I don't agree with you.
That's okay.
You don't have to agree with me.
I certainly think women should have the right to vote.
Exactly.
Yeah, I think we've seen some bad votes, and I think we've seen some buyer's remorse from women voting.
Them voting, where they're like, well, you know what, this is like, we've talked about women who thought, well, it's okay for the trans issue, and now they go, oh, hold on a second, we can't have them competing in our sports.
It's like, well, look behind you, there's a slippery slope.
However, I do think it's one thing, and this is the beauty of college campus, is you're dealing in a sort of nebulous, right?
Like, well, this, so maybe tomorrow.
There does need to be a solution today.
And if you're talking about something that involves biological differences, physiological differences, which can cause actual harm, not to mention even removing opportunities from biological females, you stick with the rules that you have.
And if you want to create a third division, let that be the experimenting ground, not at the cost of women's opportunities.
That's why Title IX exists.
I believe there shouldn't be any discrimination, no matter who the person is.
So you consider a biological male, if the sporting organization, the governing body says, you have to compete with biological males, or in a third division, an inter-gender division, but not with biological females, you see that as discrimination?
Yes, absolutely.
Okay, so your solution is to let biological males compete with women?
I think I could compare your point to mine, where you'd see in the back segregation.
There's a different baseball league for both.
Would you not call that discrimination?
Yeah, of course that's discrimination by definition.
And then all of a sudden when the, I can say this because former Vice President Joe Biden said it, the United Negro League, once they mixed it, guess what?
There weren't too many great white baseball players.
I believe there still is.
There are some, but the point is, the point is they wanted to keep them out because we knew that there was some black speed and power, my friend.
I feel like that's extremely racist to say.
Really?
To say that black people are better athletes than white people in certain sports?
I think so, yeah.
Really?
Have you watched an NBA game?
I'm not going to say either way.
Is it racist to say that the majority of the NBA is black?
I'm not going to say either way.
Is it racist for me to say that black people are typically better at basketball than the average white person?
I have no idea.
I don't know the statistics.
I guess by definition it's racist, but I don't think that you would find a single black person here who disagrees.
I think that's a pretty broad point you're making.
And obviously I'm not one to say I'm not a person of color.
But you just said it's racist, so you did speak on behalf of black people.
I would call it racist, absolutely.
To say that black people are To say that they make up a higher percentage of the NBA than white people?
No.
To say that they're... That's not what he said.
In general... Sure.
What did you exactly say?
Let me give you a different one.
In general, black people, black males, at the elite level, are faster than white males.
I feel like that's a racist statement.
Check any of the land speed records.
I don't know the statistics, of course.
Look at the top ten.
You're not going to find a Whitaker I see what you're saying.
I don't agree.
I don't agree with your statement.
Your statement.
That's not what you said.
That's not what you originally said.
Your statement.
My statement, that at the elite level, black males tend to run faster times than white males.
That's not what you said.
At the elite level, black males are faster than white males.
That's not what you originally said.
That is what I said.
In this past point, but earlier, your statement was the characteristics of black people versus any other person.
That black people tend to be more successful in athletics than white people, yes.
I'm not saying the statistics are racist.
I'm saying your statement regarding black people is racist.
Based on statistics.
That doesn't matter.
And it's certainly not inferring that they're inferior.
Debatably, that's maybe what you are inferring.
That all the land speed records, that all the 100 meter dash records are held by black people and not white people, that that's racist?
That's not what I'm saying.
How is that suggesting they're inferior?
The statistics aren't racist.
Okay.
I'm saying your statement was.
Okay, so how do I address the statistic that all land speed records... You can just say it outright.
You don't have to get paranoid.
It's just black people.
But that is what I said.
You still said it was racist.
No, I was referring to your statement.
Okay, so how do I say All of the top land speed records on two feet at the elite level are held exclusively by black males.
Exactly how you just said it.
So that's not racist?
Nope.
But it's racist for me to say that, as a general rule, in the elite category, when you're looking at the elite of the elite, runners, black males are faster than white males.
That's not racist.
That's exactly right.
That's not how you stated it.
How did I state it?
The earlier statement was you were describing, obviously, with a little bit of a racial motif in the background, black people's characteristics.
I don't understand.
What do you mean racial motif in the background?
You trying to say that there's some kind of an undertone that's racist?
I'd say a black person or a white person are people.
Right.
There don't need to be clarifications on the differences between the two.
But I was addressing a specific instance of athletic capability.
You were, and then you went off on that little tangent, and then came back to it to try to cover it up.
I never addressed the differences between black and white people outside of an athletic context.
No, no, you didn't.
You said, you gave characteristics of black people, which I would have called racist.
No.
You give different characteristics.
I won't repeat them.
I can't repeat them, sorry.
They were said.
I can't say them in black.
I would never say those words.
No, no, no.
Well, the good thing is here we have a loop.
What did I say?
I don't understand what...
I'm trying...
I can't say...
I remember saying black people are more athletic, right?
More athletic.
Faster.
I said speed and power.
Right? I'm talking about baseball.
Are you talking about United Negro League?
No, no, no.
That's obviously a term that was used.
Okay.
So I can't possibly...
I'm saying not in the word itself, but the way you stated it is racist.
Okay, so it's not the word, it's the way I stated it that in general the elite black athletes are faster than the elite white athletes.
You can say that.
Yeah, but you believe that's racist.
Okay, so you believe that's racist.
That's fine, we just disagree on that, and I don't see that as something that most black people would disagree with.
But we can ask some, we can find some people who will show an answer.
I think that you're, I think that, I think one thing that I will say, is first off, I appreciate you sitting down, aside from the accusation of racism, or saying that the statement was made in a way that you believe was racist.
Aside from that, I think you've kept it remarkably civil.
But I will say, I don't think this has been very productive.
I don't believe so either.
And the reason is because you live, especially on college campus, you are afforded the luxury of not having to offer solutions in the real world.
And there aren't many places where that's the case.
Well, because you don't deal with these consequences right now.
You're pursuing your education.
You're obviously taken aback by something else.
Well, I think that's actually a discriminatory thing to say.
How do you say it?
What about someone who decided not to go to a university or college, but someone who's creating a business?
Someone who's learning a trade?
Are they not pursuing an education?
No, they are pursuing an education, absolutely.
But they don't get the deal simply in the philosophical, right?
They have to answer pragmatically, like, wait, hold on a second, there's a bottom line to this profit.
Wait, hold on a second, am I doing this job correctly or I'm not?
You're afforded a luxury of being able to express ideas without bringing them to their endpoint solution.
And so that's a big purpose to the change my mind ideas.
If you're going to change my mind, right?
And this is an actual exercise.
I'm not intending to change your mind.
That's why you sit down.
But, you know, I think this is important.
What are you studying?
Cybersecurity engineering.
Was this thrown or did this fall?
I think it fell.
Oh, okay.
I'm used to objects throwing.
Yeah, I don't know.
Um, I think, uh, uh, what are you studying?
Cybersecurity Engineering.
Cybersecurity Engineering?
Yes.
Oh, okay.
So, that's a field where, really quickly, you're going to find out, once you go into the workforce, if you're good or you're bad at your job.
Yeah, debatably.
No, not debatably.
Your ass will be fired.
I'm going to be good.
Okay, right.
But I'm saying, if you're not good, you'll be fired.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because it either worked, you either kept them secure, you either kept them secure, you didn't.
That's not, it's not black and white like that.
Ones and zeros.
As an employer, I can tell you it is pretty black and white.
Jobs are performance-based.
No, absolutely.
I understand that.
Not so much in the realm of higher education.
But I'm saying, you know, there's situations that occur.
Maybe a boss like that.
Okay.
It wouldn't be up to you.
I'm saying there's other options.
I didn't say it would be up to me.
I mean, as a boss.
I think you're doing the word salad thing, which I know is very fun to do in universities and colleges.
No, you're saying it wouldn't be up to you.
I never said it was up to me.
What I was saying is that there's going to be an objective... No, I didn't mean you.
I meant as a boss.
You as a boss.
Right.
A boss will determine if your job is good or bad.
If you had a bad day, maybe you fired somebody.
That's not up to the person.
See what I mean?
It's just one example.
It's up to the employer.
Say again?
It's up to the employer, through objective parameters set, if you're good at your job or not.
Whereas that doesn't really apply here, right, on college.
I mean, relatively, there are grading systems.
Okay, but if I were a professor... Sure.
And I was grading you on solutions provided.
Sure.
You'd have to get a 0%.
You could be biased.
Okay, I'm sure I could be biased.
I would argue that you haven't presented any solutions, because you've said you don't have them.
Yeah, I do not.
I'm a white male.
But in order to... Well, it's not because you're a white male.
I believe it is.
That's not why you don't have any solutions, my friend.
Don't hide behind the white male thing.
It is.
To say that you're a white male, therefore you don't have solutions, you can still present one.
No, I'm saying... You have a dog in the fight.
Enter the arena.
Especially if you are going to change someone's mind.
Especially if you're going to convince someone to your point of view.
You do need to offer.
Some kind of a quantifiable solution.
And that's how the world works.
Now, I've done that and I know you... I don't even necessarily know that you fully agree or disagree.
I just know that you don't really know what it is that you think should be done.
And I think that that's... I agree.
I think that's honestly representative of a lot of...
Well, there is when it harms people in the real world, like women.
Being overconfident is also a source of damage.
Yeah, I don't think that saying biological men, biological males compete with biological males, and biological females compete with, again, likewise, I don't think that's a problem with overconfidence.
I think if so, then, oh my gosh, doctors and epidemiologists and physiologists and biologists are cocky as s***, so.
But, man, I do appreciate you sitting down.
Jackson?
Jackson.
Jackson?
See, my talk with Jackson really highlights the problem with universities and how the obfuscation of objective truth really absolves students of providing concrete answers to real issues in the real world.
Now, Jackson isn't a bad kid and I do appreciate him sitting down with me, but the lack of argument or ability to even articulate an objective position is exactly where institutions like UNT have failed students in the first place.
At UNT, no less.
The Harvard of Denton County.
Now if you want to see more of these, smash the like button and comment below which topic you'd most like to see covered next.
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