Know More News - Adam Green - Dr David Skrbina on Jesus Hoax, Demons, & Apocalypse | Know More News - Adam Green
Aired: 2026-03-06
Duration: 01:16:34


=== Ambiguous Passages Explained (14:53) ===

[00:02:21]  What's up, guys?
[00:02:22]  Adam Green here with No More News.
[00:02:24]  Thank you for joining me today.
[00:02:26]  Huge show, huge guest, Friday, March 6th, 2026.
[00:02:30]  Going to be discussing with the author that's been on several times before PhD in philosophy, author of The Jesus Hoax, Dr. David Scurbina, is back.
[00:02:40]  He has, I believe, recently read my new book, The Jesus Deception.
[00:02:46]  Very similar, some slight differences.
[00:02:47]  We're going to talk about it and talk about some other things.
[00:02:50]  Also, he recently got a review from some other mythicists, David Fitzgerald and Richard Carrier shared it.
[00:02:59]  So, we're going to be responding to some of their arguments in there as well.
[00:03:04]  So, everybody, welcome back on the show, Dr. David Scrubine.
[00:03:09]  How are you doing, Dave?
[00:03:11]  Hey, great.
[00:03:12]  Doing great, Adam.
[00:03:13]  Thanks for having me back.
[00:03:14]  Absolutely.
[00:03:15]  Happy to do it.
[00:03:19]  So, how you been doing?
[00:03:20]  And what's going on?
[00:03:21]  And where you want to start?
[00:03:24]  Yeah, well, I'm just happy to have this great new book that you put out here, Jesus Deception.
[00:03:30]  It's a great book.
[00:03:31]  I just got it a few couple of weeks ago and was, I've been kind of pouring through it in the last several days and just learning a lot of stuff.
[00:03:39]  And yeah, I mean, it's great because I think it's a really nice compliment to sort of my book.
[00:03:46]  And I think they work well together.
[00:03:48]  In some ways, you've got a lot more documentation than I do because you're really going into depth in the Old Testament and pulling off the good citations.
[00:03:57]  So as a scholar, I certainly appreciate that.
[00:04:00]  I hate it when people just whip off ideas or just topics off the top of their head and they don't nail it down to which passage or which book, what did that come from?
[00:04:08]  And you really did a good job of really, really hammering it on these very specific passages where you're making your argument from.
[00:04:15]  So that really makes it solid academically, at least, right?
[00:04:18]  So that's that was a really nice thing to have.
[00:04:22]  Thank you.
[00:04:23]  So yeah, I mean, I was just, it was kind of just nice.
[00:04:24]  I'm reading through it and I'm kind of comparing, of course, right?
[00:04:27]  Sort of where you're going in your book, which is actually significantly longer than my book.
[00:04:31]  So you've got a lot more ground to cover and just kind of looking at the pros and the cons and what fits and what doesn't quite fit.
[00:04:38]  And I thought I'd make a nice, good, good little dialogue actually today.
[00:04:41]  We can kind of talk through those pros and the cons.
[00:04:43]  I don't know if you've had people on recently that have challenged you or discussed the book or no.
[00:04:50]  No challenging.
[00:04:51]  No, just a bunch of Christians saying it's toilet paper.
[00:04:54]  You're dumb.
[00:04:55]  That's debunked.
[00:04:56]  You know, people that haven't even read it.
[00:04:59]  Some one-star reviews on Amazon that are like, Christ is king or that guy's a Jew or just lies, you know, lies like that.
[00:05:05]  But no, I definitely do see it as complimentary to your book.
[00:05:10]  And it definitely mine goes way like very more heavy on scripture.
[00:05:14]  And it talks about Apocrypha and Dead Sea Scrolls and all these other early proto-Christian texts.
[00:05:21]  And yours, what I really love about yours, especially your revised edition, is how you respond to the rebuttals at the end.
[00:05:28]  So yours is more like philosophical, like kind of arguments, kind of explaining the conspiracy.
[00:05:36]  And mine's kind of just like more of the, well, the subtitle is A Mystical Midrashic Myth.
[00:05:41]  So that was the focus is on the Jesus Midrash.
[00:05:44]  And your subtitle is How St. Paul's Cabal Fooled the World for 2000 Years.
[00:05:49]  So I do think they compliment.
[00:05:52]  You mentioned that like part of the disagreement, maybe, is that you argue that there probably was a historical figure at the kernel, but that the rest of it's all mythological.
[00:06:01]  And then besides that, is there any like other disagreements?
[00:06:06]  Yeah, no, which I acknowledge that, by the way.
[00:06:08]  Hold on, I say that in my book, too.
[00:06:09]  I go, it could have been a guy, and it's still mythological.
[00:06:13]  It's still a big lie.
[00:06:14]  I quoted you in the first chapter and in the last chapter with some important, you know, some important sections.
[00:06:22]  Yeah, absolutely.
[00:06:23]  Yeah, I agree.
[00:06:24]  In fact, I made a little note here.
[00:06:25]  Yeah, you said you're okay with a rabbi Jesus.
[00:06:28]  So it actually doesn't really hurt you that much if there really was some guy out there because you're still drawn from all the same legends and the same scripture sources.
[00:06:35]  So that's not really a not really a big issue.
[00:06:38]  But yeah, basically, I mean, I was just kind of going through it.
[00:06:40]  I'm just making little notes as I'm reading through your book.
[00:06:42]  And I'm pulling out little terms and ideas that kind of seem relevant to me.
[00:06:46]  So if I can just run through my list and we'll just kind of encapsulate your book, I think.
[00:06:52]  So right at the very beginning, right, I check off words like fraud, forge, deception, lie, right?
[00:07:00]  So we're obviously working under this very deliberate manipulative approach.
[00:07:04]  That's what kind of what I've been arguing.
[00:07:06]  And I think you're pretty much in that same vein there, right?
[00:07:10]  You talk about how the goal is to get the entire world under control of Yahweh, the Jewish God, right?
[00:07:16]  This is kind of the objective.
[00:07:17]  You talk about the spiritual transformation of Rome that somehow it got into the heart of the empire and it actually converted them all over, right, in the spiritual or this religious sense.
[00:07:30]  Right.
[00:07:31]  So when we talk about Jesus in particular, you're saying things like there was, or the basic argument is there was no bodily Jesus, no historical Jesus, no actual guy.
[00:07:42]  So I guess this puts you in the celestial Jesus camp, if that's fair to say, right?
[00:07:48]  And that's one form of mythicism, I guess, right?
[00:07:51]  Just to make it clear, there's different variations of this Jesus mythicist field that we're all in, right?
[00:07:57]  I mean, I pretty much were all challenging the biblical.
[00:08:01]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:08:02]  It's kind of from Earl Doherty and Carrier expanded on it and Fitzgerald and Letaster.
[00:08:06]  They're the school of like heavenly celestial Jesus model.
[00:08:10]  Exactly, exactly.
[00:08:11]  So that's sort of one approach.
[00:08:13]  I was kind of, I don't know if there's a name for that.
[00:08:15]  I mean, I called it celestialism.
[00:08:16]  I don't know if there's actually a name for that.
[00:08:18]  Maybe we need to come up with something, but that's sort of that branch of mythicism, right?
[00:08:23]  And I've kind of argued, even though I don't necessarily have a problem with that, I think it was more likely that there was an actual guy, a flesh and blood guy who actually lived.
[00:08:31]  And he was sort of the basis for the hoax.
[00:08:33]  And that was sort of my pretext as I was reading through the working through my arguments in my book, right?
[00:08:41]  So, so, and, and you, and I mean, this can I say something real quick?
[00:08:45]  I agree too.
[00:08:46]  It's an easier argument to make.
[00:08:48]  You don't have to, the model still works.
[00:08:50]  Still a lie and a deception, even if there was a person.
[00:08:53]  So, from a strategic point of view, and with a lot of people, I will grant, okay, maybe there was a guy and still argue from that standpoint.
[00:09:01]  Sure, sure.
[00:09:02]  Yeah, you're right.
[00:09:03]  In fact, I was going to point out exactly that point.
[00:09:04]  I think when you're in a pure celestial standpoint, it's actually a pretty hard argument to make.
[00:09:09]  And I wanted to walk through, like I say, we'll get through a couple of points.
[00:09:12]  I want to kind of walk through how that might have played out that got us to the celestial Jesus thing.
[00:09:18]  I think it could be pretty useful, pretty enlightening for you and me and the audience for sure.
[00:09:24]  You spend a lot of time on Paul, which is really good because a lot of the mythicists don't really talk about Paul much at all.
[00:09:30]  And to me, he's the key guy.
[00:09:31]  He's really the focus of the hoax, right?
[00:09:34]  So you talk about Paul, and I picked up a few more terms as reading through it.
[00:09:39]  Paul views Jesus as a mystical cosmic savior.
[00:09:42]  I think I pulled that phrase out of there, right?
[00:09:44]  He was crucified, and you cite Psalm 22.
[00:09:49]  I think you said Paul seems to possibly have invented the Eucharist or even the Last Supper story.
[00:09:55]  Maybe that was invented by Paul.
[00:09:56]  I think you mentioned that at some point.
[00:09:59]  The talk about Jesus in the flesh, you're arguing that was really a spiritual kind of flesh.
[00:10:05]  There's two kinds of flesh: there's the physical blood and bone kind of thing, and there's something like a spiritual embodiment, right?
[00:10:11]  Like a spiritual flesh, heavenly flesh is what he's saying.
[00:10:14]  Heavenly flesh, exactly.
[00:10:15]  So, so in the likeness of man, too, not as a man, but the likeness of man, like in the Philippians, right?
[00:10:21]  Yeah, yeah, whatever that means.
[00:10:24]  That's a little bit fuzzy, but yeah, especially when you're in a heavenly flesh, because then, you know, what is it?
[00:10:29]  You look like a ghost up in heaven or something, right?
[00:10:31]  You look like a guy, right?
[00:10:33]  Um, but yeah, I mean, there's interesting passages that argue for a real flesh and blood Jesus, right?
[00:10:38]  There's the flesh passages, there's the fact that he has brothers, right?
[00:10:42]  The siblings, and you talk about that, you kind of tackle those.
[00:10:46]  Um, you know, born of a woman, all these kinds of passages, right, that seem to, if you take them on their face value, okay, we're dealing with a flesh and blood guy.
[00:10:54]  So, if we want to, so we need to explain those, I guess.
[00:10:57]  And you do, you tackle, I think, all those passages, right?
[00:11:00]  That argue that those aren't really meant to be taken literally, they're meant to be sort of metaphorical or something like that.
[00:11:08]  Born of a woman says this is figurative, and it's a whole argument.
[00:11:12]  He's not calling born of Mary, he's saying he's born of Sarah and Hagar under the law.
[00:11:17]  That's a metaphor, right?
[00:11:19]  Exactly.
[00:11:20]  That part, yeah.
[00:11:22]  Um, and the brother, the but you said spiritually, the brother of the Lord, it's a spiritual brother.
[00:11:26]  And I have a whole chapter on James where I, you know, make the case for that, right?
[00:11:31]  But those are the closest things to proof for a earthly Jesus, I'd say, would be the brother of the Lord passage, right?
[00:11:40]  Okay.
[00:11:41]  Um, I like, I like near kind of near the end, you said Jesus qualifies as the omni-Jew.
[00:11:47]  I love that.
[00:11:48]  He like, well, that's my friend Amalek actually gave me that one.
[00:11:52]  What's that?
[00:11:53]  Well, one of my friends, Amalek, I think, came up with that term.
[00:11:56]  Proto-Jesus, omni-Jesus.
[00:11:57]  Well, he encapsulates like all of the archetypal figures of the Old Testament in a way.
[00:12:03]  That's kind of where that came from.
[00:12:05]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:12:06]  And he's the archetypal representative of like the suffering servant is the people of Israel, but then became embodied as the figure of Jesus, too.
[00:12:14]  So he kind of represents the Jews in a way as the servant.
[00:12:18]  Right, exactly.
[00:12:21]  And then, like I said, right, kind of right near the end, you kind of said you were okay if there was a rabbi Jesus.
[00:12:25]  If somehow it worked out that maybe that was a stronger argument or something, it wouldn't really overthrow your whole thesis.
[00:12:31]  You could still draw from those ideas.
[00:12:33]  So that it would just make it a little more of a lie if it was completely whole cloth, a little more nefarious, right?
[00:12:40]  A little more nefarious, exactly.
[00:12:44]  I was thinking, I mean, we use the word Messiah a lot, right?
[00:12:47]  And I mean, you use it a lot in your book, and I use it in my book as well.
[00:12:52]  I was kind of went back.
[00:12:53]  I had to refresh my own memory, like, how much, where's that word come from, right?
[00:12:57]  So there's the Hebrew word Mashiach.
[00:12:59]  I don't, is that, is that how I say it?
[00:13:01]  I'm not good with my.
[00:13:02]  Oh, I watch a lot of rabbis.
[00:13:04]  Moshiach.
[00:13:08]  So that translates into Messiah.
[00:13:10]  It appears several dozen times in the Old Testament, from what I can tell, right?
[00:13:16]  But it almost always refers to real people.
[00:13:18]  So it's like, you know, Solomon, King David, actual leaders and so forth.
[00:13:23]  Messiahs in the Old Testament are real people messiahs generally.
[00:13:27]  I think there's a few ambiguous passages.
[00:13:29]  Yeah, it's like kings and priests, anointed kings and priests.
[00:13:32]  Exactly, kings and priests.
[00:13:33]  If you jump to the New Testament, that word almost does not appear almost at all.
[00:13:38]  I think there's only two references in the Gospel of John, the last gospel, the latest gospel in times, we follow the traditional chronology.
[00:13:48]  I think there's only two times that I could tell in the New Testament, Gospel of John, where that word appears.
[00:13:54]  So Messiah doesn't seem to show up in, I don't think it anywhere in Paul, in any of the early gospels.
[00:14:00]  I don't think.
[00:14:01]  Maybe you could correct me on that one, but that was kind of my quick they do the Greek word Christos, which means like christened, anointed in the Greek was the equivalent.
[00:14:11]  And the only mention of Messiah in the New Testament, I believe, is where he goes, who do you think I am?
[00:14:15]  And he goes, you are the Messiah?
[00:14:18]  I think that's it.
[00:14:18]  Yeah.
[00:14:19]  That's the one that comes in.
[00:14:20]  And I think it happens twice in John.
[00:14:22]  Do you agree, though, that Christos basically just is the Messiah?
[00:14:26]  That's what he means by that.
[00:14:29]  Yeah.
[00:14:30]  I'm trying to remember the, I don't know.
[00:14:32]  I didn't trace the, you know, the origins and the development of that term particular.
[00:14:36]  I mean, that's obviously the intention, right?
[00:14:38]  They're using that to mean that.
[00:14:41]  So, anyway, but I'm just trying to make trying to draw the threads here between the Old Testament Messiah and the New Testament Christ, if you will, right?
[00:14:49]  And just kind of see what's going on.
[00:14:51]  How does it transition from the one to the other, right?
[00:14:53]  Well, they also transition as from the Messiah to the Son of Man.
[00:14:57]  Jesus is often called, use the title Son of Man.
[00:15:00]  So, I think there was a pre-Christian connecting of the Son of Man with the Messiah, right?
[00:15:07]  But the Son of Man was also an actual person, right?
[00:15:11]  No, in Daniel, it's kind of like a heavenly Redeemer figure.
[00:15:16]  He comes in the clouds.
[00:15:17]  Yeah, okay.
[00:15:18]  It's a little bit of a heavenly or spiritual figure.
[00:15:21]  Yeah.
[00:15:21]  In Enoch, Enoch, in the book of Enoch, the parables, it describes the Son of Man a lot, and it's while he's having an ascension vision.
[00:15:28]  Yeah.
[00:15:30]  Okay, cool.
[00:15:32]  And then I was sort of just keeping tabs because you do such a good job on citing all the Old Testament passages as they are relevant to the New Testament, to the Jesus story, right?
[00:15:42]  And I did a little digging on Paul's letters just to see, because we know the Gospels refer to the Old Testament a lot.
[00:15:49]  There's a lot of, you know, dozens of references, quotations, allusions, similar wording that they're drawing from, and you're pulling all those out.
[00:15:57]  I think you really have a lot of those documented in the book.
[00:16:01]  But I was kind of curious specifically on Paul's letters, if we accept that Paul's letters were the first New Testament documents, right?
[00:16:08]  The earliest written New Testament documents.
[00:16:10]  And I was kind of trying to reconstruct what's Paul thinking as he's building his case through these letters in time as he's writing to people, building up the church in this Jesus story, which Paul basically invented, right?
[00:16:23]  And so I'm looking at the earth, like the four earliest letters of Paul, according to traditional chronology, that would be Galatians, 1 Thessalonians, 1 Corinthians, and Romans.
[00:16:34]  I think are probably about the four earliest.
[00:16:38]  Unless you have other dating.
[00:16:39]  I mean, obviously.
[00:16:40]  Did you say Philippians?
[00:16:41]  No, Corinthians, 1 Corinthians and Romans.
[00:16:46]  Yeah.
[00:16:48]  I believe Hebrews might, Hebrews could even be before Paul.
[00:16:51]  Maybe even 1 Peter also, possibly.
[00:16:53]  Hebrews is a little, that's not clearly attributable to Paul, though.
[00:16:57]  No, I don't think it was Paul, but it could be prior to Paul's letters.
[00:17:02]  And the reason I think that is because Paul has the Eucharist in his letters, but in Hebrews talks about new blood covenants.
[00:17:08]  It's all about new covenants and blood, but it never mentions the Lord's Supper.
[00:17:12]  So that's why I think it could have came before Paul.

=== Hebrews' Resurrected Jesus (15:42) ===

[00:17:15]  Right.
[00:17:16]  Okay.
[00:17:17]  But I'm just kind of tracking the progression.
[00:17:20]  If I go in that order, Galatians, Thessalonians, Corinthians, and Romans, we see an increasing tendency to cite the Old Testament.
[00:17:29]  And I did a little kind of just like what, like, what percent of the verses in each of those letters refer to an Old Testament, have an allusion or quotation of the Old Testament, right?
[00:17:39]  In the first two, it's like 18, 19, 20%.
[00:17:42]  About a fifth of the verses have an allusion to the Old Testament.
[00:17:46]  And then it jumps up to 25%.
[00:17:48]  And by Romans, it's up to 35%.
[00:17:50]  It's over a third of all the verses have a reference back to the Old Testament.
[00:17:55]  So it seems like Paul is built, he's building over time.
[00:17:58]  He's building his case.
[00:17:59]  He starts out relatively low-key in terms of reference theoity, and he's pushing it higher and higher and higher as he moves through time.
[00:18:06]  If we accept that chronology, yeah, the midrash is developing further, possibly.
[00:18:11]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:18:12]  It's a further development of the midrash over time.
[00:18:14]  It starts out relatively simple, probably, you can imagine.
[00:18:17]  And then he's getting challenged, getting new ideas, and he's building it up over time.
[00:18:21]  And it adds to the heap that he's drawing from when he's writing to the people that he's addressing the letters to, right?
[00:18:28]  So, yeah, so that's so, okay.
[00:18:33]  So that's, that kind of takes us.
[00:18:35]  And again, I'd like to even just talk, get to this point.
[00:18:38]  So now, so we get this idea that Paul is really inventing this celestial Jesus.
[00:18:44]  Is that a fair statement?
[00:18:45]  Under the I think I would say like him and James and Peter and whatever Christian sect came before Paul, they were the ones that developing.
[00:18:55]  And then Paul claimed to like see the same figure revealed through the texts.
[00:19:01]  So he is one of the first developers.
[00:19:04]  But there might be one of the first midrashic mystics.
[00:19:09]  Right.
[00:19:09]  Right.
[00:19:10]  But so I mean, somebody had the brainstorm, right?
[00:19:13]  Who was like the first guy who got this idea that we need to invent a savior, right, for the Gentiles, not for the Jews, for the Gentiles.
[00:19:26]  And it's going to be this Jesus guy.
[00:19:30]  Who had that brainstorm?
[00:19:31]  I mean, that's, I try to address that a little bit in my book, right?
[00:19:34]  It was like a lightning bolt.
[00:19:35]  Some kind of light bulb went off somewhere because it's not really in the Old Testament.
[00:19:39]  The pieces are there, but nobody said that guy actually was there, right?
[00:19:44]  So somebody, either it was Paul, I was kind of assuming maybe it was Paul, but if you're saying, okay, if there was a pre-existing movement, then some other guy had this flash of insight, right?
[00:19:56]  And so that's kind of what I was trying to think.
[00:19:59]  So I'm trying to piece together how the celestial Jesus story would have evolved, right?
[00:20:06]  And I said, let's, and I kind of did this in my book.
[00:20:09]  I said, let's just, let's just take a year.
[00:20:11]  So let's say the year 30 AD.
[00:20:14]  All right.
[00:20:15]  And we think Paul was born about the year five or six, I think, according to traditional chronology.
[00:20:20]  So he's about 25 years old.
[00:20:22]  He's a young guy.
[00:20:22]  He's just a kid, right?
[00:20:23]  He's like 25.
[00:20:24]  He's educated.
[00:20:25]  He's a Pharisee.
[00:20:26]  He's an educated rabbi.
[00:20:27]  knows the old testament and he's around about the year 30.
[00:20:32]  So either he's working on his own, completely right, or maybe he's hearing about somebody else who who also you know, just recently invented this celestial Jesus story.
[00:20:48]  It I don't know if we have a way to decide that is that just really kind of a toss-up is.
[00:20:52]  Is there any way to really know if that which would have come first, or how would that?
[00:20:57]  Paul seems to indicate that there were apostles that came before him, like Peter and James, so it's possible one of them was the first to conceive of like the type of heavenly Jesus that we see in the earliest layers of the New Testament.
[00:21:11]  But as far as, like the going to the gentiles innovation, we don't have any other tech, any documentation to say that it was anybody else but Paul.
[00:21:21]  He seems to focus on that, thinking that that was like his development, and you probably notice in the book I cite a bunch of the scripture that he cites as to why it's to go to the gentiles and I don't think it's very obscure.
[00:21:33]  It doesn't take very much digging to find the scripture where it says the nations will put their hope in him, or he will raise a banner for the nations, or or the theme of like all the nations and the Gentiles like acknowledging the god of Israel at some point.
[00:21:47]  So this is a question, though, was the original Christians, did they think that it was just for Jews, he was the Jewish messiah?
[00:21:56]  Or, from the very inception, did they always have this intended to be rejected by the Jews and go to the Gentiles?
[00:22:04]  Right that's, that's a good question.
[00:22:06]  Right, that that's a really an interesting kind of question.
[00:22:09]  But even if we, even if we, you know, set that aside and we just say well look, you know somebody, it was round about the year 30, or maybe not too much longer before that, it couldn't have been too much longer before that.
[00:22:20]  Somebody decided, we're gonna, we're gonna create a heavenly Jesus story right, and he's, he's like a.
[00:22:27]  He's like a because he didn't exist before then.
[00:22:30]  He's not a flesh and blood person.
[00:22:31]  To to draw from somebody's reading the Old Testament, one of these Jews uh, is reading the Old Testament, pulling the little bits and pieces, like you've highlighted in your book, and and it dawns on him hey, maybe this guy already already came right, or he's already he, or you know he, he well.
[00:22:51]  So That's the question.
[00:22:52]  Like, what did he did he already come?
[00:22:53]  The celestial Jesus already came because the story is there's a heavenly Jesus.
[00:23:00]  He gets he's fighting against the evil forces.
[00:23:02]  He gets crucified in heaven and he gets resurrected in heaven.
[00:23:09]  Is that right?
[00:23:10]  Yeah.
[00:23:10]  And then appears post-resurrected in personal revelations to apostles.
[00:23:15]  And then he appears physically in a ghostly form or in an actual human form after all that happens, right?
[00:23:24]  Again, I'm just trying to kind of tease out how it works because there's a lot that has to go on in heaven, right?
[00:23:32]  Before any, before any, before the story can continue, right?
[00:23:36]  There has to be a savior who's born.
[00:23:40]  He's basically a godlike figure, right?
[00:23:43]  I mean, is it fair?
[00:23:44]  Well, he wasn't born in the, I wouldn't say he was born in the earliest layers.
[00:23:47]  He was more like made and manufactured.
[00:23:50]  He was constructed.
[00:23:51]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:23:53]  But that's the story.
[00:23:54]  But the story, I mean, unless we say he was always existent, right?
[00:23:58]  If you go to Gospel of John and Jesus was here from the beginning of time, right?
[00:24:02]  Well, Paul says that too.
[00:24:04]  Paul says that too.
[00:24:04]  He adopts like the Philosoph ideas of like a pre-existent angel figure.
[00:24:10]  Exactly.
[00:24:10]  So he was some kind of godly being or an angelic being that's always been around, right?
[00:24:17]  Like a Metatron, the Metatron figure almost.
[00:24:20]  The heavenly, lesser Yahweh, like intermediary figure.
[00:24:25]  Well, we call him the son of Yahweh, right?
[00:24:30]  So, so I don't know if all the angels are sons of Yahweh and daughters of Yahweh.
[00:24:34]  I don't know if anybody has ever made that case, right?
[00:24:38]  The idea was somehow that Jesus was like a special son, a specially, you know, favored child, you know, spirit of Yahweh, something like that.
[00:24:50]  I mean, I don't know if the son of man also.
[00:24:53]  I think son of man and just son in general got blended, you know, in the messianic epithets chapter, I go over how just it's clear that any place it's talking about a son, they just go, oh, that's about Jesus.
[00:25:04]  That's about Jesus.
[00:25:05]  And then they incorporated those verses into the story.
[00:25:08]  Yeah, that's, but that's after the fact.
[00:25:11]  Before the fact, those guys weren't thinking that way when they wrote that.
[00:25:14]  The prophets weren't thinking that when they wrote that, right?
[00:25:16]  No.
[00:25:17]  So presumably they were just.
[00:25:19]  And they say that.
[00:25:20]  I think it's 1 or 2 Peter.
[00:25:22]  They go like the prophets did not know what they were saying when they said it, but like the Holy Spirit was guiding them to say these things.
[00:25:28]  And then now we're interpreting them with the Holy Spirit, what the prophets actually meant, which is just like an excuse for them to ignore the original context and look for hidden secrets in these scriptures and new esoteric readings.
[00:25:41]  Exactly.
[00:25:42]  Exactly.
[00:25:43]  So, so, so, so, somehow, you've got this.
[00:25:46]  I mean, on the one hand, you've got a monotheistic system, I think, right?
[00:25:50]  You really only have one God.
[00:25:52]  You really only have Yahweh.
[00:25:54]  Right.
[00:25:55]  So, so these lesser beings, even a heavenly Jesus, is a funny category because either he's part of Yahweh or He's a second God.
[00:26:06]  So now you don't have monotheism anymore, right?
[00:26:10]  That just seems like an awkward kind of fit into the hierarchy, the celestial hierarchy of the Jewish worldview to right to introduce this guy.
[00:26:19]  But I guess the point is, you're not doing it for the Jews, you're doing it for the Gentiles, right?
[00:26:24]  So, so to me, that kind of seemed like that made sense.
[00:26:28]  I'm going to invent a God that's going to work for the Gentiles.
[00:26:32]  It's not a God for the Jews.
[00:26:33]  The Jews have Yahweh and they're all happy with that, right?
[00:26:36]  We need a God for the Gentiles, but we can't use Yahweh because they don't believe him, they won't follow him.
[00:26:41]  So we need the Son of Yahweh, it's like son of Godzilla, right?
[00:26:47]  Son of Yahweh, and he works for the Gentiles.
[00:26:50]  And we're going to use his story to hammer the Gentiles with and to get them onto our side and soften them up and get them away from the Roman view and all that kind of good stuff, right?
[00:27:01]  Yeah, like a demigod, like the pagan demigod, son of God, son of Zeus.
[00:27:05]  It was that that was a pagan motif.
[00:27:07]  And then they, I think they utilized their son of man figure who has also sits on the throne at the right hand of God.
[00:27:14]  I think that was like the original development of it.
[00:27:18]  Right.
[00:27:19]  So, so, but I'm sort of wondering.
[00:27:22]  So, at some point, it's probably not, and he probably Paul invents that, like you said.
[00:27:26]  Paul probably had the idea, even if he didn't invent the heavenly Jesus, he turned that to a weapon against the Gentiles, I think, from what we can tell, right?
[00:27:35]  That seems to be his unique.
[00:27:37]  He's the apostle to the Gentiles.
[00:27:38]  He's going to take this message and he's going to run to the Gentiles with it because he can make good use.
[00:27:43]  He can make a lot of hay with that story, right?
[00:27:46]  But, but, but on the celestial view, Paul is working strictly with a celestial Jesus, a heavenly Jesus, right?
[00:27:55]  So, Paul is still dealing with a Jesus who's a son of Yahweh, who fought, battled what, evil in heaven, ran into trouble, lost the battle, got crucified in heaven, not on earth, and then got resurrected back to heaven.
[00:28:14]  I don't know how you die in heaven and you get resurrected back to heaven, right?
[00:28:18]  Somehow, this whole saga has to happen up there in the up and outer space, right?
[00:28:23]  Up and up in the celestial realm, because none of that's happened down here on earth, right?
[00:28:28]  Right.
[00:28:29]  Yeah, and it's and it's just like fan fictions, you know, adding new lore like they do in Enoch or they do in other apocryphal texts.
[00:28:37]  And just like Satan is a heavenly figure and he rules in the heavens, Jesus, the original version was Jesus hanging on a tree, being sacrificed in heaven by Satan and his demons, like it says in Ascension of Isaiah.
[00:28:49]  And also in Hebrews, it talks about like ascending through the heavens and like the angels and in the tabernacle in heaven, not made by human hands.
[00:28:58]  So, yeah, all heavenly at the earliest stage.
[00:29:02]  Yeah.
[00:29:02]  So, so, so I guess I have two questions, right?
[00:29:05]  So, one is, how does that work for the for the Gentiles?
[00:29:10]  How does that story of a heavenly guy who got crucified in heaven and got resurrected back to heaven?
[00:29:17]  Supposedly, that's going to be useful for Paul because he's going to take that message to the Gentiles.
[00:29:22]  To me, it's offhand.
[00:29:23]  It just seems a lot more useful to have a real guy who died, then he went, then he was resurrected to heaven where everybody dies.
[00:29:32]  Everybody wants to go to heaven.
[00:29:34]  That seems a lot more useful just from Paul's, just a strategic standpoint, right?
[00:29:40]  Than try to explain the story of a celestial guy who fought battles in heaven, died in heaven, came back to life in heaven, and now he's here for you, Gentiles.
[00:29:51]  You know what I'm saying?
[00:29:52]  I'm just trying to wonder how that seems like that's a difficult story to make if you're trying to convince the Gentiles of something, right?
[00:30:01]  Well, it's a crazy story for sure.
[00:30:03]  Either way, whether it happened on earth or in heaven, it's a crazy story.
[00:30:06]  And I would say that it's clear that it is a more persuasive story if it's believed to be a historical event and a real person that was on earth.
[00:30:15]  And that's what it ultimately evolved into later on with the gospels.
[00:30:19]  But Paul, in his letters, isn't describing an earthly figure.
[00:30:24]  It's almost everything about it is cosmic, heavenly, you know, not any of the biographical details that we see on earth.
[00:30:31]  So if he was taking a real figure, I feel like he would have more earthly details in his persuasion towards the Gentiles.
[00:30:42]  Right.
[00:30:42]  Yeah, you're right.
[00:30:43]  I mean, it seems, it kind of seems like he would have invented the biography.
[00:30:46]  If the guy didn't actually exist, he would at least invented a biography, but he didn't even bother to do that.
[00:30:51]  The other guys did that, Mark, not even Mark didn't do that.
[00:30:54]  I mean, it was, you know, Matthew and Luke and really been Matthew and Luke who kind of invented the early biography, the story, the biological story of Jesus, right?
[00:31:02]  Yeah, the birth story, the nativity and Matthew.
[00:31:05]  That's not even quite, that's not even a mark.
[00:31:07]  That took a long time before somebody said, hey, we need a birth story for this Jesus guy.
[00:31:11]  Oh, shoot, what are we going to do?
[00:31:12]  Okay, Bethlehem, star of Bethlehem, wise men, all this nonsense, right?
[00:31:16]  So that took a long time to come to fruition.
[00:31:19]  That was like the year 85 before anybody figured out that they needed to do that.
[00:31:22]  So it's a little bit at the earliest.
[00:31:25]  That's being really conservative.
[00:31:27]  It could have been a lot later.
[00:31:28]  It could have been a lot later than that.
[00:31:30]  But if you look at what Paul is saying in his letters, he's using the kinds of words that seem to talk about a flesh and blood person, right?
[00:31:38]  He uses the word flesh, he uses born, he uses died on the cross, right?
[00:31:43]  And for any normal person, if you say somebody died on a cross, they know what a cross was, they knew what crucifixion was.
[00:31:50]  So if you died on a cross, you were a flesh and blood guy and you were like strung up there on that cross and you died a painful death.
[00:31:56]  And then some of the story goes on from there, right?
[00:32:00]  So Paul is using the language that sounds like it's on the face of it is a real person.
[00:32:06]  Now you're saying, well, there was something more to it behind what he's saying.
[00:32:10]  So I guess in effect, but what that means is it seems like Paul is using a code language.
[00:32:15]  It's metaphor.
[00:32:16]  I'd say more meta metaphor.
[00:32:18]  Like, how else are you going to describe a person without describing him doing like person things?
[00:32:25]  You know, like what would a heavenly ghost angel be doing in heaven?
[00:32:29]  You still have to, if you're going to tell a story about a person, it's going to be similar to like, you know, stories that we know of actual people.
[00:32:36]  Yeah, talking or fighting or getting angrier or happier or whatever, I suppose.
[00:32:40]  Or dying.
[00:32:42]  People.
[00:32:43]  But it's, but it still seems like, on the celestialist view, it seems like the language on the face of it is biological, but there's a deeper meaning.
[00:32:55]  It's either metaphorical or it's a code language.

=== Secret Allegorical Meaning (14:38) ===

[00:32:58]  And again, that's kind of my second question: what was the purpose of using this metaphorical code language?
[00:33:06]  Because when people talk in code, right, I'm saying one thing for the masses and I'm saying a secret message for the elect who understand the code, right?
[00:33:14]  I could be talking in code right now and you don't really realize it because I'm just using ordinary words, but somebody else hears my secret words and they really know what's going on.
[00:33:22]  So I think that's kind of the picture that we're portraying with Paul is he's speaking in regular words, but somehow there's a secret allegorical or metaphorical or code meaning behind what he's saying that's intended for somebody else.
[00:33:37]  I mean, you don't just talk in code for no reason, right?
[00:33:40]  There has to be a reason why you would do that.
[00:33:42]  And it doesn't seem to be for the benefit of the Gentiles because it doesn't seem like it would even make sense to them.
[00:33:48]  They don't understand the code.
[00:33:49]  They don't resonate with it.
[00:33:51]  They don't know the Old Testament.
[00:33:52]  So was it like a wink and a nod to his fellow Jews?
[00:33:57]  Like, you know, I'm trying to figure out what was the purpose.
[00:34:02]  What was going on when he used this apparent metaphorical?
[00:34:06]  What was he trying to do to use this kind of language?
[00:34:08]  It just seems very odd to me that he would do that.
[00:34:12]  That he would use the word flesh.
[00:34:13]  Like the idea of him having to take on a form of flesh was because in order to suffer, you have to be in the likeness of a man.
[00:34:22]  Because a God can't suffer unless he, you know, lowers himself into a body that can suffer and bleed and things.
[00:34:30]  Right.
[00:34:30]  So, but yeah, you know, I think I have, I was looking for it.
[00:34:33]  I'll have to grab my laptop and do a search in a second, but in Earl Doherty's, he talks about the metaphorical language of flesh.
[00:34:42]  But as far as being born, you know, Carrier talks about how the Greek word, I think it's gonanymos or something like that, it more means manufactured and there's other better words for earthly birth.
[00:34:57]  And he uses the same word for how Adam is created.
[00:35:01]  You know, Adam wasn't born.
[00:35:02]  So it's more of a created.
[00:35:05]  And in some of the translations, they change the Greek word because they noticed that it didn't signify like just a normal, regular human birth.
[00:35:13]  Can I grab my laptop real quick?
[00:35:15]  Yeah, sure.
[00:35:15]  Go ahead.
[00:35:16]  Go ahead.
[00:35:24]  But you But you see what I'm saying, right?
[00:35:26]  On the face of it, on just the superficial reading of Paul's words, it sounds like a guy.
[00:35:31]  It sounds like a human being.
[00:35:33]  It sounds like he died, like died like a mortal death.
[00:35:36]  It sounds like that on the face of it.
[00:35:38]  So there's got to be a kind of a two-level story going on.
[00:35:44]  That's kind of what was sort of always kind of gnawing at me in the back of my mind.
[00:35:48]  Like, what was going on there?
[00:35:50]  What was he thinking?
[00:35:51]  Why would he do that?
[00:35:53]  You know, that kind of led me to say, well, look, maybe he was just speaking like a biological person because he wants to portray to the Gentiles.
[00:36:01]  He's the apostle to the Gentiles.
[00:36:02]  He wants to talk about a biological man because for crying out loud, all the Gentiles are biological men and women.
[00:36:08]  They want to relate to this guy, not some esoteric, Jewish spirit thing, which is up there in the heavens.
[00:36:15]  They want to relate to a flesh and blood guy.
[00:36:18]  I'm a flesh and blood guy.
[00:36:19]  I'm going to die.
[00:36:20]  Jesus died.
[00:36:22]  I think that would make a much stronger, if that was his intention.
[00:36:25]  And I think it was, it seemed like it would be much more effective, right?
[00:36:29]  To really be talking about a flesh and blood guy, right?
[00:36:32]  Either because there was a flesh and blood guy or just make up the fact that there was a flesh and blood guy, right?
[00:36:38]  One of the two.
[00:36:39]  It could go either way.
[00:36:41]  But it seems to me it would be more effective to actually be just taking its face value.
[00:36:46]  That would seem to be more effective than trying to draw the esoteric message.
[00:36:51]  And then you have to explain the esoteric message, how that relates to the guy on the street, right?
[00:36:56]  Joe on the street and why he should give up his life for this Jesus ghost that's up in heaven, right?
[00:37:03]  I found a section, a paragraph in the book where I kind of address this.
[00:37:06]  I say, Paul's Christ never walked the earth.
[00:37:09]  He was revealed through the spirit and discovered in the scrolls.
[00:37:12]  While Paul does include phrases such as flesh crucified and born of a woman, these are metaphorical, symbolic motifs occurring in heaven, never anchored in identifiable locations, historical figures like Pilate or a narrative context.
[00:37:28]  So, but I do agree, it is the beginning stages of a more humanizing of a heavenly figure by using human-esque terms.
[00:37:41]  But describing things in heaven, humans describing figures in heaven doing things, like I don't see how you could do it without some humanizing ideas.
[00:37:51]  Right.
[00:37:52]  Also, but you're arguing that it would be more, if it was a deception, it would be more persuasive instead of trying to sell a heavenly, but I think under the under the framework that Paul legitimately believed in a heavenly figure, just like Christians still today believe Jesus is sitting on the throne in heaven.
[00:38:11]  That's what he was trying to sell because that's actually what he believed.
[00:38:15]  He wasn't trying to think, how can I deceive them?
[00:38:18]  Yeah.
[00:38:18]  Yeah.
[00:38:19]  That's a big undecided question, right?
[00:38:21]  How much does Paul really believe?
[00:38:22]  And how much is he just lying through his teeth, right?
[00:38:25]  So I went through the lying through his teeth mode, right?
[00:38:28]  And I think this guy is a blatant liar.
[00:38:30]  He's making this stuff up.
[00:38:31]  He's just telling, he's just spewing this stuff and he's just maximizing benefit and he knows it's bullshit and whatever, right?
[00:38:37]  Yeah.
[00:38:38]  He's a bullshit grifter just making up fantasies that he's caught up into the heaven and Jesus appeared to him.
[00:38:43]  And like, it could be Carrier even acknowledges this.
[00:38:45]  Like it's possible he could just be bullshitting con artist.
[00:38:49]  Exactly, exactly.
[00:38:50]  Right.
[00:38:51]  And I, but again, the other, you got to say, well, look, maybe he really, maybe he seriously believed it.
[00:38:55]  And that was one of my scenarios at the end of my second edition.
[00:38:58]  I said, well, you know, maybe he was like psychotic.
[00:39:00]  Maybe he's mentally ill, right?
[00:39:02]  He had some, you know, schizophrenic vision of some spirit guy who spoke to him and he believed it.
[00:39:06]  Okay.
[00:39:07]  Maybe he's not a liar.
[00:39:08]  Maybe he really had some kind of, you know, you know, brain aneurysm that caused him to, you know, believe in some Jesus figure and he's honestly believing it.
[00:39:16]  I guess, you know, that's, that's always possible, right?
[00:39:18]  People believe all types of crazy shit.
[00:39:20]  They believe like they know and speak to Jesus and walk with him and he appears to them and they talk to him.
[00:39:25]  People still say that shit today.
[00:39:27]  So I imagine it was even more prevalent back then.
[00:39:30]  I guess exactly right.
[00:39:31]  That just seems strange for the guy that invented that story to actually believe it.
[00:39:35]  I mean, unless he really had a schizophrenic episode of some kind of severe mentality, mental breakdown or something.
[00:39:42]  You know, maybe, yeah, I don't know.
[00:39:43]  Maybe, like you say, there was somebody before Paul had invented it.
[00:39:46]  Paul heard it and he was like really convinced because it was a really persuasive idea.
[00:39:51]  I don't know.
[00:39:52]  I just, I just, there's too much shiftiness going on.
[00:39:54]  I just really have a really hard time swallowing the fact that Paul believes any of this stuff, you know?
[00:40:00]  So to me, it's all just, it's all just purpose-driven, strategic, you know, talk by his part.
[00:40:07]  We're, you know, we're building the church is anti-Roman.
[00:40:09]  We're going out there.
[00:40:10]  We're going to screw with the Gentiles.
[00:40:12]  We're going to get them on our side.
[00:40:13]  Whatever we got to do, we're going to give them a Jesus, a Jewish Jesus rabbi, and we're going to make them worship him and, you know, worship the Yahweh in indirect form and all this nice stuff.
[00:40:22]  I mean, there's just too much built-in incentive to do that to say, look, oh, I just, I just honestly believe, I just had this vision and I just believe this Jesus guy.
[00:40:31]  I mean, it just doesn't, it just doesn't ring true to me.
[00:40:36]  I mean, I find it hard to believe that any Christians today actually believe it.
[00:40:41]  These people believe the things they say.
[00:40:43]  So, of course, that would also apply back then.
[00:40:46]  I know.
[00:40:46]  It's like, do they really believe it or is this just a good grift?
[00:40:49]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:40:51]  Yeah, it just seems like doubly strange when you're at the very origins of the story.
[00:40:55]  Yes, I kind of can say, okay, people, you have 2,000 years of history and lots of people believe this.
[00:41:01]  And, you know, it develops its own sort of life after that much time.
[00:41:05]  So kind of can understand it today.
[00:41:07]  But at the very beginning of that process, right?
[00:41:10]  It just seemed very strange to me that anybody actually believe it.
[00:41:14]  It just seemed like too, too, too pat of a story, too useful the way it was spelled out.
[00:41:21]  And, but yeah, maybe the best solution was just kind of an evolving thing that they sort of had to move from a purely spiritual being to a flesh and blood man.
[00:41:29]  And it kind of moved through Paul as a transition phase.
[00:41:32]  And then, you know, by Mark, he's a Jesus, a full-grown adult.
[00:41:35]  And then by Matthew and Luke, he's a baby.
[00:41:38]  Now he's born.
[00:41:39]  He's grown up.
[00:41:40]  So maybe it was just a kind of a progression over time of biological, you know, manifestation of this Jesus figure.
[00:41:48]  Maybe that's maybe the, you know, kind of just evolving strategy, evolving story.
[00:41:53]  I don't know.
[00:41:53]  Maybe that's the best way to think about it.
[00:41:55]  Yeah, Carrier has a chapter in his book, How did the Heavenly Jesus become historical in his Jesus from outer space, one of his latest.
[00:42:04]  And basically, it breaks down that competing sects were competing for authority.
[00:42:11]  So you get more authority if it was an apostle that really knew Jesus.
[00:42:15]  So that's how it almost like inevitably would lead to, you know, different groups claiming authority of a real person.
[00:42:23]  And also, if every, if the first apostles in Christianity began just by personal revelations, anybody could claim a personal revelation.
[00:42:31]  But then if it evolved into, oh, we actually were the disciples and that person knew him, then you couldn't, nobody else could join in and say, oh, I had a vision too, and Jesus actually did this because this prophecy says that.
[00:42:42]  So that's kind of the way it developed.
[00:42:44]  And I see here in the chat, Amalek says, Paul was like the modern day founder of Mormonism.
[00:42:53]  Right.
[00:42:54]  Exactly.
[00:42:55]  Making up his story.
[00:42:57]  He wrote the little story to begin with, and then it kind of grew from there, I guess, and do a real religion.
[00:43:02]  Yeah, just an ancient Joseph Smith.
[00:43:04]  He claimed to Be caught up into the third heaven and get the revelations from Jesus, just like Joseph Smith claimed to find some magical golden plates.
[00:43:15]  Yeah, magic.
[00:43:16]  Did he really believe it?
[00:43:18]  I highly doubt it, but maybe people are real schizo.
[00:43:21]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:43:22]  You got to say, did he really believe it or did he not?
[00:43:24]  We don't know.
[00:43:24]  Was he a nutcase?
[00:43:25]  We don't really know.
[00:43:26]  Hard to say, right?
[00:43:27]  I mean, yeah, absolutely.
[00:43:29]  But, but, you know, I was thinking, even coming back to your book, I was kind of hoping there was going to be like one more chapter at the end, right?
[00:43:37]  Like one more chapter, like, tell us how, tell us the reader how this story came about, sort of what we've been talking through right now, right?
[00:43:46]  And I was kind of thinking, oh, it'd be great if you could, if you could do that.
[00:43:49]  I mean, it'd be a chapter, maybe it could be another book, even.
[00:43:51]  I don't know, depending how much you could do, but just my little tidbit to you, if you ever do a second edition of this book, right?
[00:43:58]  It'd be really cool to just kind of complete that story, right?
[00:44:01]  How plausibly did this story come about?
[00:44:04]  Why did it come about?
[00:44:06]  Who was it useful to whom to say what?
[00:44:08]  You know, at what time as we're moving through time, to me, that would really kind of help complete this argument of the heavenly Jesus, right?
[00:44:16]  So, you know, again, I tried to do that in my book, but I was working from the condition of a mortal Jesus.
[00:44:21]  So that was a different kind of story that evolved over time.
[00:44:24]  I would like to see it spelled out because I'm still kind of going back and forth on my own mind, but I like to see it spelled out.
[00:44:30]  And maybe that's something that even you could do at some point in the future is spell that out and how that evolved from, you know, the Old Testament through the through the early characters till the till in Matthew and Luke, where you got, you know, a baby who's in a manger and they're holding up and, you know, he was son of God and all this stuff.
[00:44:48]  So to me, that would just be kind of a great way, like a capstone piece for your book at some point, right?
[00:44:54]  Yeah, I know what you're saying.
[00:44:56]  You do a bit more of that in your book, trying to like go through stage by stage and like tell the story of how it developed.
[00:45:04]  I think maybe I didn't want to go too deep into that because I don't totally know that a lot of that is going to be have to have some speculation involved because we don't really know.
[00:45:13]  And what we do know could be lies too.
[00:45:15]  That's why I go over the total theeshu and like the whole story of Paul deciding this.
[00:45:19]  That could all just be a lie that they told us of how it developed.
[00:45:22]  And it was really complete, it was way more nefarious than anybody ever knew.
[00:45:25]  And they gave you this more plausible, you know, origin story.
[00:45:31]  But I do have, I think it's chapter three.
[00:45:33]  I go over like the historical context and how they're in a war with Rome and they're waiting for a Messiah and searching the scriptures and found this figure and taught it to them.
[00:45:44]  And so it's loosely there, but I do see what you're saying about like, you know, I'm going to do that more so, I think, when I make like a little mini documentary, more tell the story of how, so people can kind of wrap their head around exactly how it might have happened.
[00:46:01]  That's what I'm saying.
[00:46:02]  You know, people want to have a tangible picture in their mind.
[00:46:04]  Did this thing evolve over time?
[00:46:06]  You know, who said what?
[00:46:07]  When what's the, I mean, we can make a plausible story.
[00:46:10]  Yeah, of course, there's going to be some speculation and a lot of it could be wrong, but we can at least make a first approximation to the story, right?
[00:46:16]  We can sketch out the most likely scenario that seems to make the most sense and let other people correct it and say, no, that was wrong.
[00:46:24]  All right, we'll fix it here, we'll fix it there.
[00:46:25]  And over time, you build up a story of what was likely, what happened when, right?
[00:46:30]  So to me, that would be a great contribution to the whole discussion of this origins of this, you know, mystery man.
[00:46:37]  This one thing I would say about that, I think I write like two sentences on it, maybe.
[00:46:41]  Constantine, the Constantine part has a little explaining to do because that's really when it like took hold, right, in the Gentile world.
[00:46:50]  So it's like, my theory there is I think Eusebius of Caesarea was obviously Christian.
[00:46:56]  He influenced Constantine's mom, and he maybe was in his ear convincing him, adopt this, it'll unify the empire, it'll give you divine right.
[00:47:05]  And he with his ulterior motive, Eusebius, of let's get the God of Israel to conquer the pagan gods, which is what Christians want, even as a Christian, even if he wasn't Jewish.
[00:47:15]  Although, you know, every Christian is like spiritually Jewish.
[00:47:18]  So he wants the Jewish God and the Jewish Messiah to reign over Rome.
[00:47:23]  And if only Julian stopped it, why didn't he win?
[00:47:31]  Darn, that would have been great.
[00:47:32]  But yeah, I know.
[00:47:33]  I know what you're saying.
[00:47:34]  Assassination plot.

=== Cultural Revolution Tactics (09:47) ===

[00:47:36]  I don't know.
[00:47:39]  But, you know, maybe we could say just a few little quick things about this review by Carrier and Fitzgerald.
[00:47:44]  So that's kind of a nifty little piece.
[00:47:46]  And that was a recent, it must have gone back a long time because the way they wrote it, it seemed like it's been around for a while.
[00:47:53]  Like they're talking, yeah.
[00:47:56]  They were going to put it in the, what was it?
[00:47:58]  The, the, uh, what was the journal that's journal criticism?
[00:48:04]  Yeah, well, I saw one version that said journal of higher criticism.
[00:48:06]  That has been like defunct for years.
[00:48:09]  I, I, I think.
[00:48:10]  I mean, that was the one that was run by Robert Price for a while, right?
[00:48:13]  He was trying to, they kind of had a dedicated journal, but it doesn't exist.
[00:48:16]  It's not there.
[00:48:17]  Nothing exists for years.
[00:48:19]  So it seemed, it was like a case where Fitzgerald had sketched out a review like a long time ago, and maybe he was intending to publish it and never did and never could find anybody who was willing to take it.
[00:48:30]  And then, and then he talked to Carrier, and Carrier jumped on and edited it and threw a bunch of stuff at me.
[00:48:37]  So, yeah, I mean, it showed up just recently.
[00:48:39]  It was just earlier, about a month ago now, early February, that this review showed up on Carrier's blog.
[00:48:49]  And it's yeah, so yeah, what's the first attacking?
[00:48:53]  I mean, it's just, you know, just a very visceral, attacking critique of the first edition of my book.
[00:49:00]  That was my first complaint.
[00:49:01]  You know, so they had an old edition.
[00:49:03]  New book.
[00:49:03]  My new edition has been out for two years and if you're going to do a review, you're going to publish it now.
[00:49:08]  You'd think you'd check to make sure there wasn't a new version of the book out in two years for crying out loud.
[00:49:12]  But no, they went back to the old first edition, which I addressed a lot of their concerns.
[00:49:16]  It wasn't that I had to fix much, but I just addressed a lot of the things that they talked about in the second edition would have been nice if they looked at that, but they didn't apparently.
[00:49:25]  You know um but but, but again, it's just.
[00:49:28]  The whole hostile tone seemed very strange because we're all sort of in the same big camp right, we're sort of all in the mythicist camp.
[00:49:34]  We all sort of are, you know, doubting the biblical Jesus and we don't accept the miracle stories and all that kind of stuff.
[00:49:40]  So we're all kind of on the same side of the fence.
[00:49:42]  But they just kind of go really berserk and they're really just attacking my argument my, my terminology.
[00:49:48]  They just don't like the whole thing, right.
[00:49:50]  I mean, I also kind of notice, almost like nitpicking, little minutia, irrelevant things that don't really have much impact on like the larger theory or the larger thesis.
[00:50:03]  Yeah exactly, I mean, you're just just shooting little sniping, little comments at little points, like okay, you know, maybe I didn't explain this.
[00:50:10]  I mean, i'm writing a popular book, it's not a detailed scholarly book, so obviously i'm gonna just speak in more general terms.
[00:50:16]  But they're attacking little phrases and little ideas and well, I didn't make this case strong enough and I didn't consider this possibility, and but it's all relatively minor stuff right, that's really, that's really just nitpicky stuff.
[00:50:28]  That doesn't really change my thesis, even though I conceded all their points.
[00:50:32]  Yeah, what's annoying too is like just the idea that we're even asking, like we're not even allowed to suggest that a Jew might have ever lied about anything.
[00:50:41]  You know, we're not blaming Jews today, we're not blaming all Jews back then, but just to say any Jew, one small sect of Jews, they would never lie, they would never conspire, they would never do a cultural revolutionary, theological warfare type of thing.
[00:50:56]  No, to even suggest that you're evil, never one, never in 2000 years would that ever happen, that those guys would ever construct a story for some nefarious?
[00:51:05]  No, they would never happen.
[00:51:06]  It's just utterly impossible.
[00:51:07]  It's insulting to even suggest that and this is what Carrie and Fitzgerald are trying to say, right, I mean, it's just all an accident, all just a, you know, just benign accident.
[00:51:18]  Yeah exactly, it's all just an accident right, so nobody lied along the way.
[00:51:22]  That's the quote that I do from your book too, about how it's a lie, and and I quote d, did you notice, did you like how I quoted uh, from Bart Ahrman right before that, like a really good quote of him talking about it's fraud, it's forgery, it's lies, it's deception, exactly like yeah, you're right there Bart right yeah, run with that baby, but no, he can't, he can't, he can't do that, because then it's that's, somebody was bad and they did something bad.
[00:51:48]  So But uh, but yeah, I mean, they're arguing just stupid things, right?
[00:51:54]  They don't, they don't like this saying, well, maybe that, maybe there were Gentiles among the gospel writers, and okay, nobody really knows, and maybe Luke was a Gentile.
[00:52:03]  Okay, a lot of people say that, but there's not really much evidence for that.
[00:52:06]  And I don't think he was a Gentile, yeah.
[00:52:10]  I don't think so either.
[00:52:11]  The arguments they make for that are very poor, actually.
[00:52:14]  Yeah, there's very weak arguments to try to make that claim, but okay.
[00:52:18]  But, you know, even if it is, I said, I like I said, I wrote my response to this one.
[00:52:22]  It's on my book, Jesus Book, Jesus Hoax book website is my response to, if you scroll down, there's my, yeah, exactly, when propaganda masquerades as a book review.
[00:52:33]  So I'm tackling a lot of their issues, and I think I did a fairly thorough job of just squashing all their points or even conceding and to say, hey, I can still concede.
[00:52:43]  Even if I concede that, you know, Luke was a Gentile doesn't really change my thesis, right?
[00:52:46]  I just tweak it a little bit and then I'm still, I'm still good to go.
[00:52:49]  So, but yeah.
[00:52:52]  I noticed this.
[00:52:53]  Check this out.
[00:52:54]  So he says, as Scarbina imagines his scenario, young zealot Paul must have come up with a new non-military plan to defeat the Roman Empire.
[00:53:04]  Like Psalm of Psalms or Psalm of Solomon says that the Messiah is going to rule without an army through the rod of his mouth, through his teachings.
[00:53:14]  With words, with words.
[00:53:16]  Carrier talks about that.
[00:53:17]  And Carrier also has chapters about how Christianity was a non-military, militaristic, you know, pacifist sect.
[00:53:26]  And that's what made it survive.
[00:53:27]  And that's what allowed it to spread.
[00:53:29]  I mean, it is clearly what it was.
[00:53:32]  And also, it's crazy how they're going to attack you for that.
[00:53:36]  The idea that it was a non-military plan to wage against the Roman Empire when Carrier says the exact same thing.
[00:53:42]  Listen to this: 30-second clip from his book, Not the Impossible Faith, calls it like revolutionary warfare.
[00:53:49]  I think he says: violent or the cultural.
[00:53:53]  The violent revolution is always an economic contest of military resources, which Rome would always win, and Rome always did.
[00:54:00]  Therefore, the only rebellion that could succeed was a cultural revolution, which meant a war of ideas.
[00:54:05]  And that was so.
[00:54:06]  That's what we're saying.
[00:54:07]  Jesus was a cultural revolution, theological warfare, a war of mythological fighting gods, basically.
[00:54:16]  So, so why do they attack you for saying that when that's the same exact thing that they're saying?
[00:54:22]  Oh, well, I fingered the Jews and they didn't want to hear that.
[00:54:25]  So, even though I said the exact same thing, they just didn't want to hear it put that way.
[00:54:30]  I don't know.
[00:54:31]  It's like they agree, it's a myth.
[00:54:33]  They agree that it's the Jewish Messiah.
[00:54:35]  They agree that it was all Jews and Jesus is the king of the Jews.
[00:54:39]  So, but if you just like put those together and point it out and say, what's going on here?
[00:54:43]  They go, you're not, you're a bad person.
[00:54:45]  Nobody listen to them.
[00:54:46]  Nobody associate with them.
[00:54:48]  Bad, bad, bad.
[00:54:49]  You know, oh, I shouldn't even use the word cabal in my subtitle.
[00:54:52]  That's bad, bad, bad.
[00:54:53]  Oh, yeah.
[00:54:54]  I mean, it's like stupid.
[00:54:55]  It's like juvenile.
[00:54:56]  I said that in my response.
[00:54:58]  Talk about how juvenile can you be, right?
[00:55:00]  To you know, just to attack, you know, just the terminology somebody's using.
[00:55:06]  You're not even talk about that's just your own argument.
[00:55:09]  You're believing everything, every aspect of it.
[00:55:11]  And you might just don't like the way I spun it.
[00:55:13]  Well, then, then spin it a different way if you feel like you need to do that, but you know, attack me because I'm spinning it a certain way, whatever.
[00:55:20]  I mean, it's crazy.
[00:55:22]  You're a little more heroic.
[00:55:23]  The alien that could succeed was a cultural revolution, which meant a war of ideas.
[00:55:27]  And that was a war the rebels could win so long as they had the better ideas and employed the right tactics on the battlefield of the mind.
[00:55:33]  Such a war still had casualties, martyrs, and hardships, persecution, but it was still a war.
[00:55:38]  And like all well-motivated wars, soldiers didn't give up simply because of the prospect of dying or suffering.
[00:55:43]  Indeed, as in any righteous war, dying and suffering is exactly what soldiers are willing to pay for victory: violent or the cultural.
[00:55:52]  So, the idea that they knew they realized that they're not going to defeat Rome with a military leader, and a messiah is not going to come down and help them win.
[00:56:01]  So, but a suffering messiah that they adopt, cultural revolution, theological warfare, like I don't see what their problem is here with that.
[00:56:14]  Well, that's kind of why I said hey, that points to some something else is up, something else is going on because it's just so illogical, it doesn't make any sense, right?
[00:56:22]  So, you know, then I'm then throwing it back in their face.
[00:56:26]  Like, well, what's up with you guys?
[00:56:27]  What's what's driving this sort of you know, stupidly emotional reaction, you know, and yeah, I don't know, right?
[00:56:34]  Well, who, who's, who's your beneficiaries?
[00:56:36]  Who's your sponsors?
[00:56:37]  You know, what have you got in this fight that you feel like this was a personal attack against you, you know, when I had nothing against them at all?
[00:56:44]  I never, I didn't write anything against Carrier, I didn't write anything against Fitzgerald, I didn't lean on them heavily in my book, but I wasn't attacking them.
[00:56:50]  And suddenly, they think like they're going to do that.
[00:56:52]  So, like, I've wounded them deeply, as I said in my response, like, oh, I just cut them to the quick, and now they have to really lash out.
[00:57:00]  It's just really just stupidly emotional to me, right?
[00:57:05]  And the fact that they're going to do that like today, when so many of our politicians are like hardcore fundamentalists, Christian Zionists that are, that are, believe that they're cursed if they curse the state of Israel and blessed if they bless them.
[00:57:18]  And they believe Trump's launching a holy war against Islam for the Holy Land in the Middle East.

=== Why Religious Freedom Is Under Attack (08:37) ===

[00:57:24]  Like all everything that's that's transpired with this, the dark ages, like the fall of Rome, the anti-science, like everything of Christianity.
[00:57:33]  And then they're in here just like, I don't know.
[00:57:35]  And what they do is they love the straw man too.
[00:57:38]  They love to say, like, oh, you're blaming all Jews.
[00:57:40]  That's like their number one cope that they go to, which clearly is not what we're saying here at all.
[00:57:46]  And they go, oh, well, Christianity persecuted Jews.
[00:57:49]  I completely grant that.
[00:57:50]  I think that's awful.
[00:57:51]  Blaming Jews for killing God, I think, is absolutely retarded and evil, actually.
[00:57:56]  So I don't get what their big fuss is.
[00:58:00]  I think it's just, I think most of the public, too, is like realizing, why are these guys so reluctant to just state what's obvious about the origins of Christianity?
[00:58:13]  That's what I try to do in the book, too.
[00:58:15]  I try to show all the verses where it's like clear.
[00:58:17]  The motive that inspired the Jesus myth time and time again is like the kings will bow, trembling in fear, licking the dust of their feet.
[00:58:24]  Every knee will bow, you know, people of all languages will worship the Son of Man and believe the Jews were chosen.
[00:58:31]  Like, you know, I had a chapter on that too, and they didn't like my chapter where I'm citing Jewish supremacism.
[00:58:39]  It's rooted in a misanthropy, right?
[00:58:41]  This kind of hatred of the Gentiles, and we're going to slaughter them and, you know, we're going to rule over them, or they're going to lick the dust off our feet and all this kind of stuff.
[00:58:49]  I mean, it's just there in black and white.
[00:58:50]  It's in the Old Testament.
[00:58:52]  It's in the prophecies.
[00:58:55]  It's just a horribly malevolent view of the non-Jews around them, right?
[00:59:01]  And you say, well, look, this has been around for 3,000 years or 4,000 years.
[00:59:06]  And by golly, it looks a lot like what's going on today.
[00:59:08]  You look at what's going on in Gaza, look at what's going on in Iran.
[00:59:11]  It's just like, you know, we're just slaughtering these people like animals.
[00:59:14]  Like we don't really care about them at all.
[00:59:17]  And this is exactly harkens back to all the Old Testament stuff.
[00:59:20]  We're just going to, you know, enact, we're the best, we're the chosen, we're the Jewish supremacists here, and we're going to just, you know, take it out on anybody we can just because we have the power to do so.
[00:59:32]  So, I mean, the current events are just more justification for what we've been saying, right?
[00:59:37]  I mean, it's there from 3,000 years ago, and it's right there today in the news.
[00:59:42]  You just turn on the news and you see, oh, man, we're just slaughtering people.
[00:59:45]  We're killing, you know, what they killed 160 girls in the girls' school.
[00:59:49]  Apparently, didn't even bat an eye about that one.
[00:59:51]  I mean, it's just, it's just ridiculous what's going on, right?
[00:59:53]  And it's, it's, it's a present-day slaughter and just absolute maltreatment of the Gentiles.
[01:00:00]  I think this is systemic of a wider problem in biblical studies, though, is that it's been since its inception, it was created and it's captured by Abrahamic believers, basically.
[01:00:12]  So they are terrified of having to concede or acknowledge or even just, you know, treat with respect, not attacked any of our positions because the guild, the community will call them anti-Semites, which they already do, actually.
[01:00:29]  Just like they called Richard Dawkins an anti-Semite for his God delusion book when he talked about like how evil the God of the Old Testament was.
[01:00:35]  So they are terrified of being labeled anti-Semitic.
[01:00:39]  That is the kill shot for the academic and the publisher community.
[01:00:43]  In fact, Richard Carrier's most recent book, The Obsolete Paradigm, got rejected from peer review.
[01:00:49]  And they said, they hinted it was anti-Semitic.
[01:00:53]  To say the Old Testament's not real, to say the Jews are never chosen, you basically become anti-Semitic because if Jesus never existed, somebody lied.
[01:01:01]  So that's the implication of acknowledging that Jesus is a myth.
[01:01:05]  Some Jews lied, and that's a problem.
[01:01:07]  You're not allowed to say that.
[01:01:08]  So he already got accused of anti-Semitism.
[01:01:12]  And they're also extreme leftists.
[01:01:13]  So they're just like, you know, quick to throw out labels at everybody as well.
[01:01:18]  So I think that explains a lot of it.
[01:01:21]  Yeah.
[01:01:22]  Yeah.
[01:01:22]  I guess that's pretty much it.
[01:01:23]  I mean, it's, it's, it's just a shame, right?
[01:01:25]  I mean, it just destroys the credibility of the whole movement because you got people who are cowed and they're, you know, they're bullied and they're threatened and they're whatever to just to just to shut up and you know, say, yeah, they just give the traditional story.
[01:01:39]  They attack anybody who veers out of out of the line a little bit.
[01:01:43]  And yeah, it just leads to horrible mistreatment of the people and just an abuse of the ideas.
[01:01:50]  There's no free discussion of ideas.
[01:01:52]  They don't want to debate these things.
[01:01:53]  They don't want to talk about it.
[01:01:55]  They probably don't want to talk about your book.
[01:01:56]  They don't want to talk about my book.
[01:01:57]  They just assume that it just disappeared because it just causes those books cause too much trouble for them.
[01:02:02]  They just can't respond to those things.
[01:02:04]  It points out what they're not willing to cover.
[01:02:08]  That's their gatekeeping.
[01:02:11]  And when Carrier did address, or I don't know if you had me in mind or exactly who he had in mind, but it was a whole lot of straw man arguments and positions that I don't actually hold.
[01:02:21]  And while also admitting and conceding to like the points that I am actually making.
[01:02:28]  So speaking of, I have another clip of Carrier since he wants to take shots at you.
[01:02:32]  Let's just show some of the things that they're saying in their own words.
[01:02:36]  Let's see here.
[01:02:39]  Of not having religious freedom is Jewish.
[01:02:44]  And that's true.
[01:02:45]  I can't think of an example of religious freedom being suppressed by any other culture in history that other than a culture that is completely subsumed by a sect of Judaism.
[01:02:59]  So Christianity is a sect of Judaism.
[01:03:00]  Mormonism is a sect of Christianity.
[01:03:02]  So Mormonism is just a sect of Judaism.
[01:03:04]  Islam is just a sect of Judaism, possibly originating from the Torah observant Christian sects, Syria of the time.
[01:03:11]  So they all go back to the Old Testament and the Jewish concept of suppressing freedom of speech and religion.
[01:03:17]  And that's fundamentally in the Bible.
[01:03:19]  The idea.
[01:03:20]  So Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are all about, hold on, we missed the very beginning.
[01:03:25]  The idea of not having religious freedom.
[01:03:27]  So no religious freedom, no freedom of speech, supremacy of Yahweh.
[01:03:31]  These are Jewish ideas.
[01:03:32]  This is what Christianity is.
[01:03:34]  He just said when he was trying to respond to me, he was like, oh, well, Christianity is Gentiles and Trying to spin it as if it's not just Jewish apocalyptic messianic movement that was that was targeted for the Gentiles, right?
[01:03:48]  Right.
[01:03:52]  So, yeah, it's it's disappointing, but I feel like they realize the pressure, the pressure is on, and that this is the implications of this.
[01:04:02]  And a lot of people are noticing because it's like pretty blatantly obvious.
[01:04:08]  I think the talk to the common guys on the street and the common people, and you know, just the masses, if you will.
[01:04:15]  I think they're on our side.
[01:04:16]  I think they understand what's going on.
[01:04:18]  And if they're willing to have a little bit of an open mind, if they're not already just completely committed to the Christian view, I mean, I think, I think they can see what's going on.
[01:04:26]  So, so where are we at?
[01:04:32]  Okay, I got let's do the super chats actually.
[01:04:34]  Unless there was anything else that you wanted to bring up, no, turn the super chats on.
[01:04:40]  Yeah, I got it.
[01:04:41]  I got to leave in 10.
[01:04:42]  So, yeah, sure.
[01:04:44]  Let's get this turned on.
[01:04:46]  If I didn't see if any came in, hope you guys enjoyed it.
[01:04:50]  Didn't want to have the power chats on and disrupt our conversation.
[01:04:54]  Here we go.
[01:05:05]  I would also just throw out there that I just released a Kindle version of my second edition of my book.
[01:05:12]  So, that's actually just in the last week or so.
[01:05:15]  Why I've been dragging my feet in that one.
[01:05:17]  So, that's out there now.
[01:05:18]  You can buy the Kindle version of a second edition of Jesus Hoax.
[01:05:23]  Do you intend on doing an audiobook ever?
[01:05:26]  Oh, hold on, hold on.
[01:05:27]  You can answer that in a second.
[01:05:42]  Do you know what that is?
[01:05:44]  Yeah.
[01:05:45]  Hold on.
[01:05:46]  I'm going to skip these real quick.
[01:05:49]  I got to skip all these and then play them one by one.
[01:05:55]  Otherwise, we won't be able to pause them and answer.
[01:05:58]  Hold on, guys.

=== Cosmotheism Clarified (07:00) ===

[01:06:01]  All right.
[01:06:03]  All right.
[01:06:03]  So, did you get that question?
[01:06:04]  Cosmotheism?
[01:06:06]  Yeah.
[01:06:07]  So, William Luther Pierce has got this.
[01:06:10]  Uh, it's kind of a religion, right?
[01:06:11]  Cosmotheism.
[01:06:13]  It's basically a form of pantheism, right?
[01:06:15]  Where the universe is God.
[01:06:16]  So, this is a very old view, goes back to ancient Greece.
[01:06:20]  Um, uh, I mean, it's been argued by a lot of people, brilliant philosophers.
[01:06:25]  It was, you know, Spinoza was famous for arguing for a form of pantheism.
[01:06:31]  It's an old idea.
[01:06:32]  It's an interesting idea.
[01:06:33]  I kind of like aspects of it.
[01:06:35]  Not quite the same as panpsychism, which says that every individual entity is a psychic entity.
[01:06:41]  So that's a slightly different variation.
[01:06:45]  But yeah, pantheism.
[01:06:46]  I mean, I don't consider myself really a pantheist, but I like the idea.
[01:06:50]  I think it's plausible.
[01:06:50]  I think it's rational.
[01:06:52]  And there's some interesting arguments for it.
[01:06:54]  $20, David.
[01:06:55]  Set up a hold on.
[01:06:57]  Sorry.
[01:06:58]  I thought I turned that off.
[01:07:02]  Sorry.
[01:07:02]  This thing doesn't work perfect, but it beats reading them.
[01:07:05]  That's okay.
[01:07:10]  Here, we'll do the one John just did.
[01:07:14]  Jonga Wright has sent $20, David.
[01:07:16]  Wants me to set up a substack.
[01:07:18]  Good idea.
[01:07:21]  Yeah, I probably should, I guess.
[01:07:22]  I gain financial support.
[01:07:24]  It's like sort of somewhere in the back of my mind, but I'm like so freaking busy these days.
[01:07:28]  I just never get around to it.
[01:07:31]  Yeah.
[01:07:31]  So it's not the anti-tech reason.
[01:07:34]  You are open to having a sub stack.
[01:07:37]  That's part of it.
[01:07:39]  Partly is just like I'm too freaking busy to kind of get around to get it organized.
[01:07:44]  What you should really do is get on Twitter.
[01:07:45]  We need you on Twitter.
[01:07:47]  Ah, there you go.
[01:07:48]  Okay.
[01:07:51]  What's the guy's name?
[01:07:52]  The guy you did the books with?
[01:07:54]  Kaczynski.
[01:07:55]  Kaczynski.
[01:07:55]  Yeah, Kaczynski, I think, would be rolling in his grave if he knew you were on Twitter.
[01:07:59]  I know.
[01:08:00]  That would just look too bad.
[01:08:01]  Yeah, I would feel bad if I had to do that.
[01:08:04]  Yeah.
[01:08:05]  Okay.
[01:08:06]  But it would be cool if you were on there, though, actually.
[01:08:10]  On Marie, thank you for the big dono.
[01:08:14]  Let's go.
[01:08:15]  Please play.
[01:08:17]  She says, Glad to catch you live.
[01:08:20]  Great interview.
[01:08:20]  Thank you for keeping us updated, debunking all the crazy psyops.
[01:08:24]  Yeah, I'll have to get you on again real soon just to talk about like everything in the news and current events and stuff as well, since we didn't have time to archie.
[01:08:41]  Thank you.
[01:08:44]  Oh, that's not.
[01:08:45]  Let's thank you for the dono, Archie, but let's not do that one right now.
[01:08:50]  Not on topic.
[01:08:51]  Rush, Boleslaw.
[01:08:52]  Dude, none of these are playing now.
[01:08:56]  There it is.
[01:08:58]  Aun Marie sent $50 on Rumble.
[01:09:01]  Glad to catch you live.
[01:09:02]  Great interview.
[01:09:03]  Thank you for keeping us updated and debunking all the crazy PSYOPs.
[01:09:07]  Dude, it's finally.
[01:09:08]  It's nice that somebody actually read the book and had a conversation about it and like in good faith.
[01:09:13]  Four cents.
[01:09:14]  Richard Spencer said that the globalists want peace and nationalists want war.
[01:09:17]  The difference is where the conflicts are either within borders for the globalists due to diversity or at the borders for the nationalists.
[01:09:24]  Which do you prefer?
[01:09:26]  We don't have time for that one right now.
[01:09:28]  Sorry.
[01:09:30]  Bolslaw sent $20.
[01:09:32]  Check out a modern sect based on Christianity created by a guy named Visarian in Russian.
[01:09:37]  They wrote another testament and created a long-life settlement in Siberia.
[01:09:41]  It shows how easy it is to create.
[01:09:43]  Create a religious sect, right?
[01:09:45]  Yeah, they're always creating new religious sects.
[01:09:46]  That's just what Christianity was: a spin-off, an offshoot.
[01:09:51]  Yeah.
[01:09:52]  Okay.
[01:09:54]  Archie, Archie, Archie.
[01:09:55]  Okay.
[01:09:56]  Archie says, Does Yahweh sacrificing his son for all people parallel Renee good sacrifice of her health for the criminal invader?
[01:10:03]  What all affects good more?
[01:10:04]  Western individuals.
[01:10:06]  No, no, no, no.
[01:10:07]  Archie sent $7.44.
[01:10:09]  Does Yahweh sacrificing his son for all people parallel?
[01:10:12]  Renee Good sacrifice for the criminal.
[01:10:15]  I'm almost out of time.
[01:10:17]  I really do have to stop in three minutes, so we're going to skip.
[01:10:20]  But I do appreciate the donos.
[01:10:27]  Let me make sure I think that was the last one.
[01:10:32]  Yep, that's it.
[01:10:34]  Okay, thank you guys.
[01:10:37]  Thank you, David.
[01:10:38]  I was so happy to hear you.
[01:10:40]  I was going to send you the book, too.
[01:10:42]  I said it in the email.
[01:10:43]  I was like, hey, give me an address, or, you know, where should I send it?
[01:10:47]  And you're like, I already got it.
[01:10:48]  I'm like, great.
[01:10:49]  Nope, I had it.
[01:10:50]  Awesome.
[01:10:51]  I was on that thing.
[01:10:51]  As soon as I heard it was out, boom, I got a copy.
[01:10:54]  So I had to get it.
[01:10:56]  Great question.
[01:10:57]  Well, I appreciate the feedback, and it was good to go over and address the mainstream mythicist, I guess you could say, kosher mythicist, maybe we'll say.
[01:11:08]  But we're open for debates, by the way, okay?
[01:11:11]  Like an actual good faith debate.
[01:11:13]  This whole thing, like, oh, you're a bad person, so we can't talk to you, and we're just going to call you cranks or amateur and not address anything you say doesn't cut it and it doesn't work on people.
[01:11:23]  So if you have any actual arguments and want to have a good faith response, we're not the ones backing down from that.
[01:11:31]  Absolutely.
[01:11:32]  Happy to do it.
[01:11:33]  Okay.
[01:11:33]  Where could people find you?
[01:11:34]  Best place?
[01:11:36]  JesusHoax.com.
[01:11:37]  JesusHoax.com.
[01:11:38]  My personal website, davidscribana.com.
[01:11:41]  So those are the kind of the two latest.
[01:11:43]  It gives you links to most of my books.
[01:11:45]  And some of the latest stuff is up there.
[01:11:49]  So yeah.
[01:11:50]  Very cool.
[01:11:51]  We'll get you on again soon to do a current events and other questions.
[01:11:56]  That'll be great.
[01:11:57]  Like, I've been talking a lot.
[01:11:58]  I don't know if you watch the show, but I've been talking a lot about how they're blaming everything on secret Satanists and demons and Khazarians.
[01:12:06]  And it's so bad out there.
[01:12:09]  Epstein file.
[01:12:10]  Have you seen the reaction to the Epstein files?
[01:12:12]  They're like, they're eating babies and drinking blood.
[01:12:14]  And it's just the kookiest, craziest stuff ever.
[01:12:17]  It's so discrediting.
[01:12:19]  Sure.
[01:12:20]  Yeah.
[01:12:20]  Are you keeping how dialed into like the latest and the internet chatter are you and like all the latest latest news and theories and everything?
[01:12:30]  Well, I try to stay up on the news.
[01:12:31]  I'm not really following internet chatter, so I'm a little bit lagging there because I'm spending my time writing, editing, and whatnot.
[01:12:38]  I mean, I try to keep it up on the latest news stories, and you know, I hear little bits and pieces from various uh venues, but I'm not deep into the into the hot topics.
[01:12:48]  So, if you know, if you got stuff that you know about or want to bring things up, that'd be great.
[01:12:53]  I'd love to hear it.
[01:12:54]  We can we can chat about it.
[01:12:55]  So, yeah, I forgot.
[01:12:56]  I had two important more clips that I wanted to show that reinforces what we're saying.

=== Israeli Perspectives on Jesus (02:17) ===

[01:13:02]  So, here's like one of the top best-selling author Christian.
[01:13:06]  He's Jewish, he's a messianic Jew, but he's a Christian in America.
[01:13:09]  Listen to what he says about Christianity that came from Jerusalem, and so they start persecuting.
[01:13:15]  It's you know, it's like Rome conquered Jerusalem with weapons, earthly weapons, but now Jerusalem's gonna conquer Rome with spiritual weapons.
[01:13:24]  Jesus, Jesus was the spiritual weapon that they conquered Rome with.
[01:13:28]  That's all we're saying.
[01:13:30]  So, when the rabbis say it, and the Christians acknowledge this, and the secular people acknowledge it, but the mythicists, no, that's just too far.
[01:13:36]  They could never say such a thing.
[01:13:38]  Here's another one: here's an Israeli being interviewed.
[01:13:41]  Look at what this Israeli says about how he views Jesus not existing and it being invented by Jews to conquer Rome.
[01:13:48]  That's literally what he says: random Israeli guy.
[01:13:50]  The other thing for you is Jesus, okay?
[01:13:52]  Do you think he celebrated Hanukkah or Christmas?
[01:13:56]  There's no actually a record about Jesus being existed by Romans, by anyone.
[01:14:03]  It's just like for Jews, Jesus is like Santa Claus.
[01:14:09]  I mean, Santa Claus is actually based on a real priest named Saint Nicholas, okay?
[01:14:17]  But Jesus was like all made up.
[01:14:19]  Really?
[01:14:20]  Yeah.
[01:14:20]  So you think that the Brita Hadashah is all fiction?
[01:14:24]  By Jews.
[01:14:26]  Made up by Jews.
[01:14:27]  Yeah.
[01:14:27]  Interesting.
[01:14:28]  And why would they do that?
[01:14:29]  To convert other tribes to believe in the same God.
[01:14:34]  Even though it's fiction.
[01:14:36]  Yeah.
[01:14:36]  Interesting.
[01:14:37]  Yeah.
[01:14:38]  So that doesn't really matter then because he wouldn't have celebrated anything because he wasn't real.
[01:14:44]  Like the conceptual, you know, wise.
[01:14:48]  He was a Jew.
[01:14:49]  So thank you.
[01:14:52]  Yeah, he would celebrate Tanuka.
[01:14:54]  Tanuka.
[01:14:55]  Yeah.
[01:14:55]  Yeah, that makes sense.
[01:14:56]  But even though there's that, like he's mentioned in the Brita Chadashah from different sources, he's also mentioned in the Talmud, which came hundreds of years later.
[01:15:05]  Later, yeah.
[01:15:05]  Exactly.
[01:15:06]  He's also mentioned from a historian, a Jewish historian by the name of Josephus.
[01:15:11]  Late forgery.
[01:15:12]  Also, as a living human, real very late.
[01:15:16]  Yeah, but yet again, they were Christian Jews.

=== Very Late Thanks (01:15) ===

[01:15:19]  No.
[01:15:20]  Even Yosefus was a Christian Jew.
[01:15:21]  No, Josephus wasn't a Christian.
[01:15:25]  He was with the, you know, he had relations with the Roman Empire.
[01:15:30]  He had his own motives.
[01:15:32]  Best parts here at the end.
[01:15:33]  Hold on.
[01:15:33]  To agree with his existence.
[01:15:35]  Did you know that the Roman Empire fell because of the spread of Christianity, not because of a big war?
[01:15:40]  Yeah, exactly.
[01:15:41]  Pretty powerful.
[01:15:42]  I mean, that's some evidence of something.
[01:15:46]  Wow.
[01:15:50]  So, but if we say it, you know, we're bad, evil people, and nobody should listen to us.
[01:15:58]  Yeah, funny double standard there, isn't it?
[01:16:01]  Yeah.
[01:16:01]  Yeah.
[01:16:03]  Yep.
[01:16:03]  All right.
[01:16:04]  Well, thank you, everybody, for donating.
[01:16:06]  Thank you, David, for getting the book and coming back on and for your book and for all of your work as well.
[01:16:10]  Keep up the good work, and we will talk again soon.
[01:16:13]  Thank you, everybody.
[01:16:13]  Have a nice weekend.
[01:16:15]  I will be back maybe Sunday, definitely not or Monday.
[01:16:19]  And I got the new Man on the Street interviews coming out.
[01:16:22]  It's very, very good new edit.
[01:16:24]  So stay tuned for that.
[01:16:26]  Like, share, clip, leave a comment below.
[01:16:29]  Sign up for Subscribestar, buy a book, buy David's book.
[01:16:32]  You guys know what to do.
[01:16:33]  And I will have a nice weekend.