Know More News - Adam Green - The Jesus Hoax Wars | Know More News w/ Adam Green feat. David Skrbina PhD

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June 8, 2023 - Know More News - Adam Green

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The Jesus Hoax Wars | Know More News w/ Adam Green feat. David Skrbina PhD

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	Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to No More News.
	I'm your host, Adam Green.
	It is Thursday, June 8th, 2023.
	And today we've got a powerful interview and discussion for you guys.
	I have back on the show Dr. David Scurbina, PhD, author of the Jesus hoax.
	And today we are going to be discussing the Jesus wars, the Jesus hoax wars, as I see it.
	Jesus, easily the most divisive, controversial, debated, disputed character in the last 2,000 years, most influential character in the last 2,000 years.
	And I say character instead of person because I'm a mythicist, right?
	But today we're going to talk about Scurbina's theory that it is a Jesus hoax by Paul's Cabal and the gospel writers.
	We're going to talk about competing theories like the baseless conspiracy theory, Roman Providence, Caesar's Messiah, that it was the Romans that created it.
	We're going to talk about the historicists like Bart Ehrman and the whole Jesus mythicist debate.
	Appreciate you, David, for coming back on.
	And I think the internet is going to go perfect today.
	Sorry for the last few streams.
	You've been on twice in the last month or month and a half.
	We had some good shows, but tech difficulties.
	So hopefully it'll be smooth today.
	Yeah.
	Hi, Adam.
	Thanks.
	Glad to be back.
	I'm sure it'll go fine.
	Yes, it's going to be a good one.
	I've got a lot of clips and topics to bring up with you, a lot of material that we're going to comment on, and including some the rabbis' view on all of this on Christianity and the purpose it's served and the role it's played.
	We're going to play some clips from Esoterica and a little bit from Rabbi Shapira and the rabbis meet the secret agents who started the Christian deception according to the rabbis.
	And rabbis say that Christianity is like a Kabbalistic midrash pesher.
	This is what Richard Carrier says.
	This is what the rabbis say.
	This is what Esoterica now just had a video out a month ago saying that basically Paul was a Kabbalist and created mystical visions that he created Christianity.
	Gonna talk about how the academics are very dismissive of anything that they deem as a quote conspiracy because we all know conspiracies don't exist, right?
	Absolutely.
	That's a bad word.
	If they call you a conspiracy theorist, that's a major insult, obviously, right?
	Right.
	And the idea that like no conspiracies ever exist, like I see Christianity as a conspiracy in the simplest way, in a nutshell, that in the Old Testament, they wanted all the nations to worship the God of Israel, the God that chose them, and to be obedient and on their knees for the Torah Messiah.
	They accomplished that through Christianity.
	They brag about that today.
	Our leaders are going over and bowing down to a wall in a foreign country that they believe is the Holy Land.
	They think these people are God's chosen people.
	They believe the Old Testament is the word of God and that they're cursed if they curse them, blessed if they bless them.
	And the rabbis say, yes, it accomplished and fulfilled all our goals, but it's not a conspiracy.
	We're just going to dismiss all of that by calling it a conspiracy.
	Have you experienced this?
	Oh, yeah, absolutely.
	I mean, it's like defined to be something that's fake or false, right?
	So by definition, a conspiracy can't be true, which is ridiculous.
	I mean, it's just a terrible distortion of the words and the language.
	They do this all the time.
	They'll take ordinary words and they'll contort it or distort it or throw it into some opposing meaning and imply that it means one thing when it means something else.
	I mean, conspiracies happen all the time.
	You know, people get together behind closed doors.
	They make plans.
	It happens in the corporate world.
	It happens in academia.
	I mean, it happens everywhere.
	I mean, it's religion.
	Yeah, certainly in religion, obviously.
	I mean, you got leaders anywhere.
	You got leaders of any organization.
	They're working somewhere, you know, in some back room, making plans, you know, strategizing.
	I mean, that's all it is.
	It's just a conspiracy, right?
	That happens all the time.
	So, yeah.
	Yeah, people never get together in plots to advance their goals and their objectives.
	That never happens.
	Oh, no, no.
	They're all just benign humanists who are just looking out for the good of humanity.
	That's all they do, right?
	Yeah, this is what you get into a lot in the book and in your interviews, like the idea that none of these biblical scholars want to attribute any motive to the creation of the Christian religion that has been the most dominant religion, taking over theologically conquest of the whole world for the last 2,000 years, almost the whole world.
	Well, right, yeah, you know, that's a key question, right?
	The question of motive, right?
	So why would Paul do this?
	Why would his followers, you know, continue the story after he was gone?
	Nobody ever really ever wants to talk about that motive question because that leads down some dark alleys that they just don't want to go to.
	So yeah, that's something we need to talk about for sure today.
	Okay, so I think we should probably start with, let's start with this one, okay?
	This is just one of the many rabbi clips I have of them very clearly expressing the idea that Christianity and Islam are God's plan.
	They weren't an accident.
	They accomplished an important goal in Judaism to get the nations to be monotheistic and worship the one God of Israel.
	And they all say this, almost gloating about it.
	We'll play this one.
	First time in history, the Bible makes the incredible prediction that one day the entire world will acknowledge the truth that is in the possession of the nation of Israel.
	Zachariah chapter 8, verse 23.
	And that they will ultimately follow God's true servant.
	That's them, by the way.
	He says Jesus, the Christians believe Jesus is the suffering servant of Isaiah, but it's really all of the Jewish people are the suffering servants.
	So they need to get the Christians not to worship the one king of the Jews, but like follow all of the nation of priests, is what he means by that, which is important.
	He's saying he wants the world to worship them, basically, and that they're the nation of priests, and we're their flock, and they're going to lead us.
	Oh, yeah, they're the representatives of God on earth, right?
	They're the chosen ones of God.
	And so, of course, you have to worship them.
	Absolutely.
	We are now witnessing the start of this prophecy unfolding.
	For the first time in history, thousands of Christians, serious students of the Bible, are beginning to recognize that the true understanding of the Hebrew scriptures has eluded them all these years, and that it can be found with the true people of the book.
	We Jews ourselves need to more seriously embrace and study our own Bible because it is more precious than gold and sweeter than honey.
	And because others will be seeking to learn from us, I don't think so.
	I don't want to learn from them and their foreskin mutilating deity, jealous deity that shows them above all people, right?
	Yeah, their bloody animal sacrifices and all those nasty things, right?
	We don't need to learn about that.
	Yeah.
	So here's a viral video I made.
	It's got 45,000 views here.
	It's eight minutes.
	We're only going to play the first one or two, but this is rabbis explaining their secrets beliefs about Peter and Paul creating Christianity for the benefit of Judaism.
	Check this out.
	On the ninth day on the month of Tevet, it's the Hebrew calendar, on the Hebrew calendar.
	It's next week.
	It's almost on Christmas, by the way.
	Guess what happened?
	Every Jew in the world that is a practicing Jew fest.
	Why do we fast?
	Fasting.
	Fasting.
	Why do we fest?
	Why?
	Why?
	I found the answer.
	We fest for a special Jew.
	You know what's his name?
	Simon Peter.
	That's not a reason you got to keep secret.
	I mean, the Shokman says, we fast and we're not telling you why.
	There are two Christian reasons why the 9th of Teves became a fast that we didn't want to publicize.
	But in our small group, I will publicize it.
	In a famous book of anonymous authorship called Toldos Yeshua.
	Toldos Yeshua is kind of the Jewish history of Yashka.
	And this was a widely circulated work in the Middle Ages.
	Anonymous authorship, and it actually had multiple versions as well.
	The story is that the 9th of Teves is a Yortsite.
	It is the day of the death of a righteous person.
	But the righteous person we are commemorating is not Ezra Hasophar, but it's a man called Shimon Kippa.
	Shimon Kippa.
	Kippa in Aramaic is rock.
	So now I will call you Peter.
	The Rock.
	Shimon Kippa is none other than the man that is known in the Christian Bible as Simon Peter, the apostle of Peter.
	Yeshka's closest disciple and the one who succeeded him as the leader of the church.
	Peter became the first pope, the first bishop of Rome, and his name was Simon Shimma.
	And Peter meets Rach, Petra.
	And he's during the fast for Simon Peter.
	I never heard of that.
	Yes.
	Yeah, I mean, this is though.
	No, they know who it is.
	They don't know.
	But why, wait, wait, wait.
	Why do they fast?
	Ah, ah.
	Because during the time of tribulation of the Jews, during the first century, Peter, Peter, he's actually protected the Jews because, quote-unquote, he was the apostle to the Jews.
	So they say he actually saved the Jewish people.
	Peter, according to Judaism, is what?
	He's a secret agent of Judaism that was put by the Jews themselves to protect the Jewish people from those big, mean Christians.
	It's very, very interesting.
	Now, according to Saber Toles, yesterday, it refers to one person, and he was a rabbi who was sort of amongst the sages.
	And he went into a secretive, a sort of double agent role for the purpose of corrupting Christianity.
	The early Christianity was already corrupted, but his goal was to go in there and make it so corrupted that regular Jewish people would have nothing.
	It's interesting that they believe that Peter was this double agent, but the earliest thing we know about Peter is Paul says Cephas was the first one to see that have a vision of Jesus.
	So he was like the first apostle.
	So they kind of get Paul and Peter conflated here, but you guys can watch the whole thing.
	I've done video on it in the past.
	They brag that they were like this double agent.
	This rabbi brags that Paul, I'm sorry, Peter was the first pope of Rome and that he was just really a rabbi.
	And this is what, so they think they created it with some, you know, nefarious motive, essentially.
	What do you think of that?
	Well, right, that's exactly what they did, right?
	They're concerned always about the Jews, self-interested the Jews, the nation of Israel, right?
	So the construction is always to that end.
	And it's got to be aimed at the masses, at the Gentiles.
	That's kind of the target audience.
	It's not going towards the Jews because they know what they want.
	They know what they believe.
	So we've got to aim at the non-Jew, the non-Jewish masses, and get the story to them.
	Get them onto our side, you know, sort of weaken, corrupt them as much as possible.
	That's kind of the strategy, right?
	Well, I think the strategy was just to control their religion because if you can control their religion, you control everything.
	And they wanted the world to worship their God, but not become Jewish.
	So they had to kind of create like a quasi-Jewish religion for the Gentiles to still follow Torah messianism and worship the God of Israel and follow the Noahides, the Noahide commandments that's for the nations.
	Exactly.
	I mean, that's what I described in my book.
	It's a kind of a middle way, right?
	It can't be full-blown Judaism and it can't be paganism.
	It's got to be something in between a religious view that's sympathetic and compatible and supportive of the Jewish values and Jewish worldviews, but it's got to be a kind of a new twist on things that's acceptable to the Gentile masses.
	Yeah, because that's who they wanted to adopt it.
	To think that Paul and the Gospels was like a religion that was for the Jews, but just like went wrong, or that the Romans created it for the Jews to adopt it.
	No rebellious Jew would want to adopt Christianity.
	They would consider it idol worship because they're saying a man is God.
	Drinking blood, they would not do that.
	It's almost like they made it so Jews would stay away from Christianity.
	It wasn't for them.
	They're the enemies in Christianity, whereas it tries to make the Romans superficially look good in some places because that's who they wanted to adopt it.
	And that's why they implemented so many pagan motifs because they were trying to get the pagans to accept it.
	That's what I think.
	Yeah.
	No, it has to be compatible with them.
	It has to be acceptable to them.
	But it has to adopt the basic Jewish outlook.
	That's kind of the key, right?
	So, I mean, it's ridiculous.
	I mean, you had people like James Valiant who were kind of saying, well, look, it was created for the Jews.
	It was to get them to be compliant and passive.
	I mean, that's completely ridiculous.
	Just on the face of it, it's absurd that the Christian story was created for the Jews to get them to go along with Roman dictate.
	It's an absurd thesis.
	It's not that it's impossible, but I mean, there's like no evidence for it.
	It's prima facie ridiculous.
	And, you know, all the evidence that we have goes counter to that story.
	I completely agree.
	And it's amazing to me that all of these, in my opinion, kosher and won't touch, criticize Judaism as it should be criticized.
	They're all more than happy to entertain this idea that it was a Roman conspiracy against the Jews and it's the evil Romans almost scapegoating the Romans.
	This would have to be the most absurd idea that they could ever come up with, for one.
	They could crush anybody.
	They didn't need to make a religion to try to subdue Messianic Jews.
	And the idea that this all fulfills Judaism's prophecies, and a few hundred years later, this Semitic God took over the Roman Empire.
	And so it just, this is the worst backfired conspiracy in all of history.
	But they all entertain it.
	If that was the plan, it was absurdly an absurd failure.
	It just completely destroyed the very empire it was supposed to help.
	And here's, they all love, they all look up in love to Bart Ehrman.
	The idea that Paul was like subversively working for the Romans and trying to create this new religion and target them, because that's the earliest documents of Christianity that actually mention Jesus are from Paul.
	He was a Pharisee.
	He was the apostle to the Gentiles, but somehow this religion is targeting Jews doesn't make any sense.
	And this is what Bart Ehrman has to say about Paul's Jewish mission.
	Paul did that, but in his view, his conversion was not from one religion to a new religion.
	His conversion was with his understanding of Jesus and the importance of what Jesus did for salvation.
	So he converted in that sense.
	Paul continued to think he was Jewish.
	He would have been aghast by somebody telling him he wasn't Jewish.
	Yes, he was Jewish.
	In fact, he was the one who understood Judaism because he knew that the Jewish Messiah had come, and he knew that the Messiah was not supposed to be somebody who came.
	He never actually said he came.
	He said that he was going to come or never there would be a second coming, that it would only be a coming anyway.
	He came to destroy the Romans and set up a kingdom in Israel.
	The Messiah was somebody who was supposed to die for the sins of the world and be raised from the dead.
	That's what God planned from the beginning.
	And God planned for that message to go to non-Jews.
	This is how God fulfills his predictions in the book of Isaiah.
	This is how the Jews fulfill their prophecies in books like Isaiah with guys like Paul who came up with the lie, forgery, myths, and then sold it to the Gentiles.
	How is this not a conspiracy?
	Seriously.
	I'm being honest.
	Absolutely.
	No, it's a full-blown conspiracy, but it's a true one.
	I mean, that's the only conclusion, the only plausible conclusion.
	So Erman's right.
	Paul is a Jew.
	He's a full-blown Jew.
	His interest is the fellow Jews and the nation of Israel.
	Yeah, he's got a mission to the Gentiles, and he's going to work them to his advantage.
	He's got a big problem on his hands, Paul does, because he's got Romans in his holy land.
	So he needs to do what he can to get rid of local support for the Romans, right?
	So he's got a mission that he's going to kind of take to the masses to try to get them, you know, thinking pro-Jewish, anti-Roman.
	And that's what we see in Paul.
	People say that Paul was pro-Roman, but it's absurd.
	You know, when you look through the letters of Paul and you look for the pro-Roman passages, there's one document.
	It's in Romans.
	There's two occurrences in Romans that are even remotely pro-Roman, right?
	I mean, there's the little passage where he says, obey the laws and pay your taxes.
	And then he says, love thy neighbor.
	And that's it.
	Two passages in all of Paul that are vaguely pro-Roman.
	They're in the book of Romans.
	So he's writing to the Romans.
	Of course, it's going to be pro-Roman, if anything, there.
	Nowhere else in Paul do we see any pro-Roman discussion at all.
	It's all anti-Rome.
	It's messages of rebellion and resistance.
	That's what we see.
	We see something like at least two dozen explicit passages in Paul that are rebellious and revolutionary and anti-Rome.
	So it's a huge mismatch between those many anti-Roman passages and the two pro-Roman passages.
	And nobody wants to talk about that.
	Ermin won't talk about that.
	Valiant won't talk about that.
	They don't want to talk about the specifics because it makes their case look really bad.
	And he says Paul thought he was fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah.
	Like what?
	That he's the root of Jesse, the Davidic Messiah that's going to, oh, wait, check notes, shall rise to reign over the Gentiles.
	Hmm.
	Does that sound like he's trying to save people or theologically conquer the nations?
	Very clear.
	You're right, exactly.
	It's a plan for rule.
	I mean, it's a world rule, world dominion kind of story.
	And you see it throughout, it's throughout the Torah, and it's in Isaiah, too.
	I mean, those are the two main places that you find those things.
	So we'll finish this, and then we'll move over to another top scholar in this field, Robin Walsh, and her thoughts on Paul as well.
	That the whole world will march to Zion and will.
	That's the purpose of Christianity.
	All Christians are Zionists.
	They worship the God of Zion.
	They have prophecies that, well, they're going to suck on the wealth of the nation, feed off the riches of the nations, suck the milk of the nations, and the wealth will flow unto Zion.
	The nations will grab onto the hinges of their shirt and say, We heard God is with you.
	Teach us your ways.
	Let us serve you.
	They believe that Gentiles are Esau.
	The elders shall serve the younger.
	Esau shall serve Jacob.
	Gentiles shall serve the nation of priests.
	This is what it's all about.
	But somehow they all just completely ignore the idea and laugh at the idea that it's like a conspiracy and then say, you're an anti-Semite, anti-Semitic conspiracy theorist for just stating the obvious and giving a straightforward, rational analysis of all this.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	All you got to do is quote their own passages.
	They're right there in black and white.
	You can just list them and go through the list.
	I mean, it's pretty clear, right?
	What's going on?
	And in the book of Isaiah, that the whole world will march to Zion and Will follow the God of Israel.
	God's doing that.
	He's fulfilling that promise through Jesus.
	So Paul's the one who saw that.
	His view, he saw that.
	He understood that.
	He converted to believe that.
	But it was Judaism.
	This was true Jews.
	This is what Judaism was supposed to be for Paul.
	And Paul, you mentioned Saul himself as an apostle to the Gentiles specifically.
	And despite being Jewish himself and viewing Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, he made it very, very clear that non-Jewish followers of Jesus did not need to convert to Judaism.
	In fact, should not convert to Judaism because that's completely missing the point.
	They don't want the nations to circumcise and keep kosher.
	That's only for the Jews.
	In fact, they have got beliefs that we'll be punished if we try to rest on the Sabbath and these type of things.
	This is what differentiates them from the non-Jews.
	Exactly.
	We got to maintain that wall of separation.
	We don't want the masses looking like Jews.
	No, no way.
	Uh-oh.
	No!
	Okay, we just had a little cutout.
	Are we out all the way?
	We had a little blip.
	Okay.
	I'm here.
	I can hear you.
	I see you.
	My OBS is red, but it says it's given off.
	Okay, we're greeting again.
	All right.
	Cuts GT in the book of Isaiah.
	Yeah, and I think Jews have always viewed Christianity as satanic, as a satanic temptation to idol worship.
	And it's almost like a test that keeps them away.
	And it's also like a force that stops them from assimilating when they're in exile and hates them for stupid reasons for supposedly killing God to give them their divine atonement to reinforce the idea that they are God's special people and they're chosen to be hated.
	It's sick and sadistic.
	Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
	It's a kind of a perverse mentality.
	Yeah.
	Jesus, in fact, should not convert to Judaism because that's completely missing the point.
	In your opinion, how much of this focus of Paul on Gentiles not becoming Jews contributes to the formation of Christianity as a new and distinct religion.
	So if Paul is focused, okay, and I wanted to do Robin Walsh one more.
	He basically thinks he's a prophet.
	He thinks he's a Jewish prophet who has been designated by the Israelite God to continue in this line of other prophets.
	And so when he's talking to Gentiles, you know, he's using Greco-Roman philosophy and terms and ideas because he grew up with them.
	But he never deviates from the idea that he himself is Jewish, Jesus is Jewish.
	This is a Jewish movement.
	His understanding of the origins of the problem that Jesus becomes the solution to is that everybody in the beginning was basically a child or under the Jewish God.
	But Gentiles deviated.
	They moved away from the Jewish God.
	They started worshiping idols.
	They started worshiping the wrong thing.
	So the whole objective, eradicate idol worship, which is funny how the pagans were the ultimate enemy of the Jews, and then the pagans became the enemies of the Christians and they eradicated paganism all over the West and preserved Judaism that's now more powerful than ever and bragging that all their prophecies are being fulfilled through Christianity.
	But it's not a conspiracy, right?
	No, she completely misses the whole context, which is the conflict with Rome, the hatred against Rome and the desire to overthrow Rome and to undermine it at every possible turn.
	So I, you know, I don't, there was just a short clip from Ms. Walsh there, but yeah, in that little clip, she's not even mentioning the key point of what's going on there.
	Yeah, if Jesus is the God and he's going to, the whole thing, you look at all the passages in the New Testament where they're referenced in the Old Testament, it's all about destroying all the kings of the nations.
	This was the goal.
	Christianity, Jesus supplanted the Roman Empire.
	And you're trying to tell me the Roman Empire came up with it?
	A subversive Jewish religion that took over their whole culture and spread the Torah all around the world?
	I don't think so.
	So given what we just saw, we're going to get deeper into this plot, this clear conspiracy.
	Look at the way that they try to all gatekeep the idea that you're not allowed to say the obvious things that we're saying because it's a quote conspiracy.
	How do you respond when you point out that much of this early Christian literature does appear on the face of it to be forged, to be claiming to be written by someone it almost certainly was not written by?
	People have responded to me.
	Well, that sounds conspiracy theory-like, oh, you're claiming this person made this all up, or this person made that all up.
	How would you respond to the conspiracy theory response to claiming that much of this literature is forged?
	So this is funny.
	Just to give some people some background, this is Jacob Berman, Yaakov Berman.
	He has History Valley.
	He has a podcast with lots of biblical scholars.
	James Valiant, he's a former lawyer who wrote a book, Creating Christ, and promotes the idea that the Romans created Christianity as a deception.
	You debated James Valiant and destroyed him a few years ago.
	And it's like, it's interesting.
	All of these guys on YouTube bring him on all the time, but nobody's sending you emails and inviting you on to promote the more obvious explanation for how Christianity came about, right?
	Yeah, I think they're not anxious to have to deal with that counter story.
	It's a lot easier to talk about the bad Romans and how they corrupted the Jews.
	So they're happy to have a value just ramble on like he does, you know.
	And then this is Bart Ehrman.
	He is like the number one biblical scholar in all these circles.
	And he wrote a Bork book, Forged.
	I got one of his books right here, too, Misquoting Jesus.
	I've done audibles on a few of his books.
	And he, so they're, it's funny, James Valiant's asking him.
	Nobody calls him a conspiracy theorist for one, but he gets that all the time because he promotes that Rome created it as a conspiracy.
	So let's hear his answer, though.
	Look how they just like, it's, it's the taboo thing to say that they did this.
	There was motive.
	It was an agenda.
	It's a deception.
	It's a myth.
	It's just like off limits, and you're not even allowed to even have a conversation about it.
	Oh, well, that's interesting.
	I have never in my life, I know, I've been accused of being a conspiracist.
	I am so much intentional fraud.
	I get it.
	I get it.
	Yeah.
	I have a rabbi between just this afternoon.
	I got a cartoon from a rabbi friend of mine that was a minister preaching at a funeral service.
	And the fellas laid out in the casket in front of him.
	And he's up in his pulpit preaching.
	He says, so now we have, you know, now, brothers and sisters, we have one less conspiracy theorist in the world.
	And he says, or do we?
	Yeah, so I, boy, I tell you, I am not a conspiracy theory guy.
	I am so, I, boy, conspiracy theories drive me crazy.
	I'd say even an overt intentional fraud from a wahaha conspiracy in this moment.
	Well, what I'd say is that I try to be a historian, and I don't try to go with whatever view seems like sexy and weird and able to get a big following and that requires belief.
	It's funny because he has the biggest following out of any biblical scholar there is.
	Yeah, just how that works out.
	It works out that way, even though he doesn't try to do that.
	You know, he doesn't really like all those followers, but he's got a lot of them out there, right?
	Right.
	And he hates, he hates conspiracies.
	Belief without evidence.
	So I'm very much into evidence, and I think that wherever the evidence goes, I'm willing to go with the New Testament.
	I mean, in particular.
	Hold on.
	Wherever the evidence goes, you're saying Paul is fulfilling prophecies of Isaiah.
	Go read the prophecies in Isaiah.
	They are grotesque about how blatant they are about conquering the Gentiles and having the whole world worship their God and being their servants, basically.
	Oh, yeah.
	And then he writes a book, Forgery, that these are forgeries, but then he's going to laugh at the idea that it's a wah-haw conspiracy.
	Like, what is the deal here?
	Okay, I'll finish.
	Okay, go ahead.
	Go ahead.
	Yeah, half the letters of Paul are already acknowledged to be forgeries, right?
	I mean, there's what out of the 13 letters, at least six or seven are questionable or outright outright frauds.
	So even under the standard view, we're admitting massive fraud already.
	In the half the letters of Paul are, you know, bogus, fraudulent constructions.
	So, I mean, all those guys have to admit that.
	So, you know, now that the can of worms is open, and now we're saying, well, what else is going on here?
	How much of this stuff is fraudulent?
	What was the motives behind this kind of stuff?
	Well, they just don't want to go there.
	They'll raise the issue, then they'll tell a couple of jokes, and then it's the next topic.
	That's how the gatekeepers work.
	And it's not just that it's forgeries, like the books that Paul didn't write, even in the books that they do believe Paul wrote, I should say, letters.
	It's still a deception in that because I see it as like a prophecy deception.
	Paul takes verses from the Old Testament.
	He never knew Jesus.
	He says that he sees him in the scriptures.
	That means he's mystically, esoterically, Kabbalistically reading Old Testament scriptures in a Midrosh Pesher fashion, connecting different verses, formulating some delusion or fan fiction fantasy in his head.
	That's a little redundant, huh?
	Fan fiction fantasy.
	And the idea is he's the apostle to the Gentiles, selling them this gospel of Jesus.
	And then the Gospels also, they do the same thing.
	Verses from the Old Testament supposedly being fulfilled when they didn't.
	That's a prophecy deception, tricking the Gentiles that they have magical prophecy powers and that their God is real and they really are his chosen people.
	Like, that's the big fraud that I see.
	Right, absolutely.
	I mean, there's lists of, you know, what are there, 50 or 60 or 70 prophecies in the Old Testament that are supposedly, you know, fulfilled in the New Testament.
	I mean, it's absurd.
	You've got guys who know those Old Testament stories.
	They're writing the books to fulfill their own prophecies.
	And then it's like, oh, it's a miracle that these things are fulfilled.
	Oh, it's bullshit.
	I mean, you know, it's a setup from the start.
	We're going to write these stories to match our old Jewish prophecies.
	So there's no, that's an easy, that's an easy one to hit out of the park.
	You can't miss it when you're setting up your own solutions for your own past prophecies.
	Yeah.
	And speaking of conspiracy, also, here's Jeremiah 11, 9.
	Oh, hold on.
	Let's fix this.
	Bust it out.
	Then the Lord said to me, there is a conspiracy among the people of Judah and those who live in Jerusalem.
	There is a conspiracy among the Judeans and those who live in Jerusalem.
	But I guess conspiracies don't exist.
	We're just going to laugh at them, right?
	No, that's just, he was just joking there.
	So we can't take that one seriously, right?
	Yeah.
	I'm not a Christian.
	I don't have any personal vested interest in whether Paul wrote 2 Timothy or not.
	I mean, if he did, that'd be great.
	It'd mean we'd have to reconsider what Paul really thought.
	But it's not.
	This idea that he has no vested interest and he'll follow the truth.
	He's for 20 years, number one, he was trained in Christian Zionist apologist schools, religious schools, Moody's Bible Institute and stuff.
	He was a Christian up until his Christian Zionists up until his 20s.
	He's written for 30 years on what the historical Jesus really was.
	And he's texting with rabbis and won't criticize.
	He's not being honest in covering the big picture in this, in my opinion.
	What do you think?
	No, absolutely not.
	I mean, arguably, he doesn't have a vested interest in the Christian story.
	I guess you guess could believe that.
	But all of those guys have a vested interest in maintaining a version that's compatible with Jewish sensitivities and Jewish interests.
	So there's a whole big blind spot here that they're not going to go into.
	They're not going to cross it.
	They're not going to talk about it.
	They're not going to even consider it.
	So you're getting at best, you know, half the story.
	Some of the things they say are true.
	I mean, even Valiant says some things that are correct, but he's giving you like half the story because there's this big blind spot over there that they know, man, they won't even go there.
	They won't even talk about.
	They won't even say that anybody's over there because that's going to look bad.
	So, yeah, it's absurd to say they have no interest.
	They're just following the facts and the evidence.
	That's absolutely ridiculous.
	And that's a good point.
	I read books from all these different scholars.
	I watch all these different debates and shows and guests and pick up pieces from all over, but none of them are like putting it together and stating the obvious, the elephant in the room of what's happened.
	Like the Abrahamic religions have taken over the world.
	They say this is fulfilling their prophecies and a good thing.
	This is not fringe rabbis that say this either.
	This is like the consensus view coming from the top rabbi Maimonides in the 12th century.
	But here we'll finish.
	So I don't have like I don't have any really ulterior motives in terms of trying to disprove or prove anything.
	And the kind of things that I'm I talk about in my book Forged, virtually all of that is stuff that I could have heard at Princeton Theological Seminary, training to be a Presbyterian minister.
	People certainly thought that there were only seven letters that Paul wrote when I took my introduction to the New Testament class taught by a New Testament theologian.
	I was an evangelical Christian at the time.
	When he gave his lecture on Ephesians, he spent the entire time talking about how Ephesians had completely corrupted Paul's theology.
	And so he was, you know, he was, well, he wasn't a conspiracy theorist.
	So I think it's pretty easy just to label that chart.
	I think what you do is you just ask people and you look at the evidence.
	And if you don't think so, that's fine.
	But You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist when you realize that there are lots of forgeries in early Christianity that nobody doubts.
	And so to say that, you know, 1 Peter's one of them isn't particularly crazy.
	I mean, you have to look to see if it is.
	Right.
	And the evidence, if we're scientific historians, the evidence is what should lead us there.
	You look at evidence.
	You don't just make wild claims that have no basis so that somebody will believe you.
	Yes, sir.
	I love how they're just giving out vague things like, oh, yeah, we got to follow the evidence.
	Like, I follow the evidence, but anybody that has a different conclusion or disagrees on something, they don't follow the evidence.
	No specifics at all or anything.
	It's just.
	No, it's just platitudes.
	It's meaningless statements that sound cute and sound nice, and then they don't back it up with anything of substance.
	Okay, so now we're going to play a few clips from this interview, Who Created Christs, the Roman Provence of Christianity.
	And you debated James Valiant.
	Did you already say the thing you were going to preface before we started this, or do you want to do it now?
	Well, we covered most of the points, I guess.
	You know, it was an interesting contrast because there was a lot of things that I sort of agreed with James on.
	You know, he talks about the Roman-Jewish conflict as central, and I agree.
	You know, he acknowledges that the Jews hated the Romans, wanted the Romans out.
	He acknowledges that the Romans didn't like the Jews.
	So that was also a valid point.
	He says there was no biblical Jesus, no divine Son of God.
	So, I mean, he's agreeing with those things.
	But then he goes, you know, completely off the rails, and he's back to this.
	I call it a psyops thesis, right?
	Where the Romans, maybe even the emperors themselves, conceived this evil plan of, you know, undermining those rebellious Jews by, you know, getting somebody like, you know, Paul, we're going to bribe him or pay him or, you know, coerce him into constructing a whole new story to dish out to his fellow Jews just to calm those guys down a little bit because they're just being a pain in the ass.
	And so we're going to do that.
	So we're going to find a Jew named Paul, just a tent maker, you know, and we're going to get him to create a whole new story.
	And write it in Greek.
	What's that?
	And write it in Greek, which most likely, if the militant Jewish groups would be considered Greek like the enemy foreign religion.
	And they were, you know, their books that were authoritative were in Aramaic or Hebrew.
	Yeah, right.
	So why is Paul writing in Greek when it's supposed to be a message for his fellow Jews, right?
	Why is the entire New Testament in the Gentile language of Greek?
	Right?
	I mean, it's geared towards the Gentile masses.
	I mean, that's clearly what's going on.
	And I mean, it's just, it's, it's just absurd.
	You know, you press Valiant for these kind of points, and he has no defense in support of his own thesis.
	It's just a pure conjecture that doesn't hold any water.
	Christianity.
	And I believe it's really impossible to miss that that's our constituency for Christianity.
	It was not aimed originally to convert the whole Roman Empire.
	But the formula they created there was such a powerful one.
	Hold on.
	How does he, why does he think that Christianity, in Paul's view, the goal was not to convert the whole Roman Empire?
	When Paul is the apostle to Gentiles, what can be more explicit?
	It's the goal to convert them.
	What's he trying to say?
	It was just an accident.
	It was just, like you said, it was a screw-up.
	It was just like our ploy went wrong.
	Oh, my God, we were supposed to convert the Jews and now we converted all of our own people.
	Right?
	What he's trying to say is just ridiculous.
	It combined Jewish monotheism with an open door.
	You don't have to get circumcised.
	Anyone can join, right?
	Policy.
	It was so open to everyone, and yet it combined this monotheistic idea that could unify an empire, which the Romans were very much interested in doing.
	It became too irresistible.
	Christianity had the right formula, and it took over the empire.
	But you made a great historical point earlier.
	It didn't have the right formula.
	Constantine adopted it and forced it on everybody and made paganism illegal and then put in special protections for Jews, Judaism.
	That's what actually happened.
	It didn't have the right formula.
	Right.
	I mean, it is a good point why it spread pretty effectively.
	I mean, to me, it's really this carrot and the stick thing, right?
	Because you're dealing with basically superstitious masses at this point, the superstitious Gentiles.
	And you throw crazy stories about hellfire and lakes of fire and eternal damnation on the one hand.
	And then you throw in the carrot like, oh, you get to go to heaven and live forever and be happy and be with Jesus and God or whatever.
	So I think that was a pretty effective tactic that they came up with.
	This little carrot and stick thing.
	It was a good formula.
	It was amazing formula, actually, with how well it's worked.
	Yeah, I mean, it was very clever.
	I've given them lots of credit for it.
	I mean, they came up with a nifty little story, and you got a bunch of superstitious masses, and the people kind of bought into it.
	And, you know, it was geared towards the downtrodden.
	That was the other thing, right?
	Most of the masses felt themselves to be poor and sort of trampled underfoot.
	So the story is aimed at the downtrodden.
	They're the blessed of God.
	You know, Jesus loves the poor.
	The poor are going to inherit the earth.
	And if you believe me, you know, you get to go to heaven.
	If you don't believe me, you're going to go to hell.
	I mean, that's a pretty good, that's a pretty good story to convince a lot of people to get them on your side.
	And yeah, obviously it worked.
	And when the source material for Paul was books like Psalms 110, and this is what it says, let me read just a couple excerpts from Psalms 110.
	And you tell me, do you think that they wanted it to take over all of the Roman Empire in the world?
	Hashem said unto Moshiach, sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies a footstool for thy feet.
	Hashem shall stretch forth the rods, Messiah, of thy mount, might out of Zion.
	Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
	Messiah at that right hand shall dash kings in pieces in his day of wrath.
	He, the Messiah, Moshiach, shall judge among the Goyam.
	I like that.
	You got me convinced there.
	Do you hear the voice or are you hearing my normal voice?
	Yeah, no, I'm hearing God, man.
	I'm believing it.
	Cool.
	So that's the type of stuff all over the Old Testament.
	But then we act like, oh, no, it's don't be a conspiracy theorist.
	They didn't have the motive to do this.
	There was no agenda they were trying to fulfill.
	Even if Paul was sincere and genuine and just eccentric and came up with some weird idea, cult following for himself, it's still a deception and it's still a conspiracy because he's influenced by like the prophetic agenda of the Torah.
	I'm actually working on this now, Adam.
	This is my next little project is to write up a list.
	I've started my list right here.
	It's called Jewish Dominion.
	And I'm kind of going through and collecting all those nice little passages from Genesis and Exodus and Deuteronomy and Isaiah and Psalms to build up the case to show people in the Old Testament this sort of, you know, oppressive, world-dominating, you know, the world is given to us.
	We're going to subdue the earth.
	I mean, all that stuff.
	It's, you know, it's all there.
	You just got to kind of document it and lay it out.
	So I think that would be a nifty little article, or maybe we even need to do a show just on Jewish dominion.
	And we'll kind of walk through all those passages just to show people how impressive that list really is.
	True, true.
	Oh, I know.
	It's disgusting.
	I have a verse about that, actually.
	We can go to that, or not a verse, a clip.
	This is from Creating Christ, okay?
	This is James Valiant's documentary saying that the Romans did it.
	It's a little section about how subversive Judaism was.
	The yoke of Rome.
	The Jewish.
	Yeah, there was Robert Price there.
	They wanted to throw off the yoke of Rome with Jesus and with Christianity and with their Messiah.
	That was the goal.
	They did that, but somehow it was the Romans that did it to themselves.
	Please, come on.
	This is like, can they really be this dumb?
	Or is this?
	It almost makes me wonder is like this intentional disinfo to muddy the waters and just to distract people from the much more obvious explanation.
	Exactly.
	Yeah, these guys are masters of throwing out obvious contradictions, then just acting like it's completely normal.
	Oh, yeah, we did it to ourselves and we destroy ourselves and it wasn't that nice.
	I mean, it's just ridiculous how these guys operate sometimes.
	To say that like Christianity was pro-Roman, it's about replacing worship of Jesus from the Roman Empire and their gods.
	Right here.
	Rebels were operating from a long-held Jewish prophecy that a warrior Messiah would come to defeat the Romans and deliver them from occupation.
	This messianic prophecy was handed down from generation to generation through their scriptures.
	And I just wanted to add, they also had prophecies of other types of messiahs that would be rejected and suffer and have atonement and that would go to the nations first also.
	You have to understand that it wasn't just that they were expecting a king or a military leader.
	The Romans saw the Jewish literature as being very subversive.
	And, you know, I mean, and it was.
	It's extremely xenophobic.
	It's very full of global hegemony.
	The chosen people are supposed to take over the world.
	They're going to suck the milk of the nations.
	I mean, this is all, you know, in the Old Testament.
	And probably they're thinking, what the heck is instigating these people to behave like this?
	What is their motivation?
	We got to find out.
	It's funny.
	This is in James Valiant's documentary, and I hear him all the time talking about anti-Semitism.
	You know, criticism of Judaism or rabbis is anti-Semitism.
	I mean, this should be what everybody is saying.
	The fact that people cover this up and want to sugarcoat it and whitewash it and smear and condone the censorship of people that point out Judaism and Kabbalah secrets and these things and the Zionist agenda really pisses me off.
	It became obvious, I'm sure, to the Romans that we don't have a single mythical figure to point to or a God figure to point to.
	So we got to go.
	Okay, that's a different clip.
	So there.
	And now let's go back to Valiant.
	Note that throughout Christian history, there's all kinds of anti-Semitism.
	I mean, you sneeze in the wrong direction.
	Let's go kill a bunch of Jews.
	You show a passion play and that's an excuse half the time to go kill a bunch of local Jews.
	Whereas the Roman Empire was venerated.
	It was the Holy Roman Empire.
	And it only went out of existence at the time of Napoleon.
	It only became holy once they adopted the God of Israel, though.
	Before that, they were pagan, demonic idol worshipers.
	Exactly right.
	Yeah, it wasn't holy until it was Christian.
	Then it became holy, right?
	That's how it worked.
	Right.
	And so he mentioned Christian anti-Semitism, which I completely disavow.
	I think it's absolutely awful.
	I think it's horrendous.
	I think it's stupid.
	I think it's nonsense.
	But where did Christian Gentiles get the idea to care about the Jews rejecting their Messiah?
	This Messiah that was meant to conquer the Gentiles to begin with.
	Paul and the Gospels targeted the Gentiles with this virus of an idea that, like what Paul says, that the Jews killed the Lord Jesus and their own prophets and persecuted us.
	They please not God and are contrary to all men.
	So that's Paul, the Jew.
	But then look at what look at what myth vision does to me here.
	Watch this.
	People in this entire process.
	So I commented in the chat.
	And just look, Adam Green is in the chat, and I'm not interested in the constant polemics against Jewish people.
	They always conflate my criticism with Judaism and specific beliefs and specific people and groups with all Jews, despite the fact that I've never blamed all Jews for anything.
	I think it's immoral to blame all people like that.
	Criticizing Judaism and rabbis does not make me bad if they're doing bad things.
	And I was going to say one more thing.
	Polemics against Jewish people the way that I have seen him do in the past.
	I have no interest for that.
	Because Judaism is a religion, but also a people, it's like you can't criticize their religion without them calling you racist and claiming that you hate all people.
	These are like little tricks to just like obfuscate and evade the arguments that I'm trying to make.
	So here's my point.
	Blaming Jews for rejecting Jesus is a literary device to fulfill prophecy.
	That's what I wrote.
	In other words, I think Jesus is a myth.
	I don't think Jews actually rejected Jesus.
	This is Robin Walsh.
	It's one of their favorite academics.
	They all bring her on.
	And it's a quote from her when she was on one of these shows.
	And look how he spins this.
	And I get a lot of people who comment that I can tell come from you, Adam.
	But blaming Jews for rejecting Jesus is a literary device to fulfill prophecy, Robin Walsh.
	Here's the deal.
	Yes, it's a literary project to make Christians innocent.
	And yeah, you could say fulfill prophecy, but in Luke Acts, the blaming of Jews is a literary propaganda to make Christians innocent.
	Why would Christians need to be innocent for killing Jesus?
	The story has always been that it was the Jews that killed them.
	So how is he missing the whole point?
	Blame Jewish people for what's happening.
	Your proposition is Jews invented this to beguile and trick Gentiles into accepting this position.
	I don't see Jews inventing that they're the guilty people in this entire process of Luke Acts that's going on.
	So was it what do you what do you think about that?
	Was it Gentiles that created the idea that they killed their God so that they could hate them for the stupid reason?
	That has actually scapesgoats Jews in a fictional story, but in the real world now, it's the Christians who were the villains.
	And they've been scapegoated for believing this trap and this deception.
	That's the way I see it.
	What do you think?
	Right.
	Well, I mean, it raises a reasonable question, right?
	If the Jews wrote the story, why would they include in their own story that the Jews killed the Savior, right?
	So on the face of it, I mean, it's a valid question.
	Why would they do that?
	And I think there's a relatively straightforward answer to that.
	There's a lot of internal conflict going on within the Jewish community, right?
	Paul and his buddies are a very small minority.
	They're talking about a Messiah who's come and they're going to, you know, he wasn't a military Messiah.
	He was some kind of spiritual or divine Messiah.
	And, you know, there's a lot of theological friction with the other Jews there.
	And they don't like that story.
	They're not debating on who killed Jesus, though, are they?
	No, right?
	But, you know, right, you know, the way I kind of said it, I said, well, look, the Jews are trying to kill the Jesus story.
	And this is what Paul is seeing from his side of the fence, right?
	He says, look, I made this Jesus story, this Jesus who died, he's going to save all the Gentiles.
	And then my fellow Jews, they don't like me.
	They're trying to kill my Jesus story.
	What's wrong with those guys?
	I'm really working in their best interest.
	Are they so stupid?
	You know, what's wrong with those guys?
	So I think you're seeing that.
	And you see it explicitly in the Gospel of John.
	This is widely acknowledged that these anti-Semitic comments in the Gospel of John are really just inter-Jewish conflicts going on that have been documented, you know, in the dialogue that's going on in the gospel.
	So it's not at all hard to see that that's going to come with a certain anti-Jewish angle because Paul had a lot of enemies within his own Jewish community.
	So for him to say, oh, who does he think created the story, though, that the Jews killed Jesus?
	Was it a Gentile?
	Yeah, who else could have been?
	Was it a Gentile that made it up?
	No, nobody even talks about that, right?
	Sure.
	And look at what this has done throughout history, how this has played out, okay?
	They're like the eternal, it's their religion to be like the suffering servant.
	They believe that they need to go into exile and that their souls need to be purified through persecution.
	And that atone that helps atone and purify their souls so they can be refined through the persecution while they're hated in the exile among the nations.
	And this is an important part of their whole theology.
	Being chosen to be hated and persecuted, but then they'll get their vengeance in the end.
	To say that this is all created by Gentiles is nonsense.
	It came from Paul.
	It came from the gospel writers.
	And they were inspired from the prophecies of the Old Testament that their Messiah would be rejected and he wouldn't be recognized and stuff.
	It came from them is the point that I'm getting at.
	Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
	There's no other source.
	There's no other way that that's going to come from.
	Even if they're drawing from aspects of pagan mythology, I mean, that doesn't change the fact that the root story, the basic story, is an Old Testament prophecy that they're trying to realize in their post-prophecy era, right?
	I would say it's much muddier than the proposition you put up that Jews invented this whole thing and are trying to trick all Guyim Gentiles into this religion.
	What do you have to respond to that?
	Because that's not just hit on me.
	That's like him saying he doesn't agree with your book either, that they made it up to trick the Gentiles into worshiping their God, which they obviously did.
	Right.
	Well, okay, right.
	I mean, so you got to look at what are the possible explanations and what's the most plausible given the whole picture that we've been painted at that time in history and what's going on, what we know was going on.
	So, you know, I look at a couple of different possible theses in my book and I say, well, look, the other alternatives just aren't even plausible.
	They're not even realistic, you know.
	You know, people, the Christians want to think, well, Paul had a real vision.
	He really saw the risen Christ.
	And, you know, well, okay, nobody believes that, right?
	And then, I mean, if you're going to buy the superstition, then, you know, you're kind of, yeah, you're not even in a rational discussion at that point.
	So, I mean, there's really no viable, plausible thesis that makes sense given what we know.
	So, yeah.
	I mean, we just have to look at what the evidence tells us.
	That's just my two cents.
	I figure since I saw him in the chat there, I'd just make the point that, yeah, maybe there is some, they think this fulfills prophecy, but Jews themselves, I do not see as literary, literarily trying to do this and trick at their own, you know, they get killed over and over through history by Christians because of this text being so blatantly blaming of them.
	Yeah.
	The text blatantly blames them.
	The text that was created by Jews blatantly blames them, but they've suffered so they couldn't be behind it.
	Okay.
	How were the Jews faring before Christianity?
	Yeah, exactly.
	They were already being slaughtered for Christ's sakes.
	I mean, right?
	You've got three revolutions.
	You got in 70 and 115 and 130.
	They've been getting slaughtered like crazy.
	They're ready to revolt and to die and commit suicide to try to get rid of the Romans for crying out loud.
	So it's not a far far-fetched in the least to say that those guys are ready to kill and to die to further their cause.
	They were already dying.
	So it was no stretch at all to do that.
	Right.
	They were already being slaughtered, temple destroyed, occupied, all of these things, enslaved, crucified, whatever.
	But they went from that, pagan Rome, to Christian Rome that worships their God and believes their Torah and is imposing the Torah Messiah on the rest of the Gentile world.
	We got Romans 11, 28.
	As far as the gospel is concerned, they, the Jews, are enemies for your sake.
	But as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs.
	So yes, Christians persecuted Jews.
	They're their enemies, but it's a superficial enemy.
	It's a limited controlled opposition enemy that also worships their God and believes in their patriarchs and their covenants that they were chosen and their prophecies.
	This is obviously a better situation for them than pagan Rome.
	And rabbis all say this.
	Oh, pagan Rome was very evil and Christianity brought them to monotheism.
	Yeah, no.
	I mean, the other thing to keep in mind is, you know, the Jews have been, you know, perennially viewed as the enemies of humanity, right?
	You look at the classic statements from, you know, going back to Hecateus and Theophrastus, and you go through, you know, even through Tacitus and, you know, Apian and so forth.
	I mean, there's repeated, like Symmachus, there's repeated claims that the Jews saw all the rest of the world as their enemies.
	I mean, this is sort of baked into the Jewish mindset that, you know, we are alone.
	They're the good guys.
	Everybody else in the world is an enemy, and they have to be defeated and conquered and put under our heel.
	So that goes back hundreds of years prior to the whole Christian story prior to the Roman invasion.
	That's built into the Jewish psyche that they have dominion and then that the rest of the people of the world are their enemies.
	That's an ancient view.
	And just from like a game theory perspective, like the ancient world, the ancient pagan world had issues with Judaism for like real legitimate reasons.
	Whereas Christianity was opposition to Jews for dumb reasons.
	They killed Jesus.
	Like that's the issue.
	That does nothing but discredit us, Gentiles.
	We lose our moral high ground.
	It turns us into the evil, persecuting villains and them into the innocent victims.
	And look at how all this has played out.
	We're not allowed to criticize them now today because of this history of Christian persecution.
	And Christians have flipped and are their greatest allies.
	So they benefited them with their persecution, which this is very commonly known in Judaism, how Christian anti-Semitism played a divine and important role for Jews.
	And then now it's like Christianity has become the advocate and they're repenting and they're working with them, their greatest allies.
	And to downplay, like none of these guys ever talk about modern, modern-day religion and how it influences politics and foreign policy and our relationship with Israel and all of these things.
	Like it's just, they pretend like that, none of that exists.
	Too controversial, I guess.
	You know, also, we got to keep in mind there was a lot of non-religious reasons why the people of Europe in particular, you know, didn't like the Jews.
	I mean, they were being exploited.
	They were being, you know, land was taken.
	You know, they were being charged user rates of interest.
	You know, they were working, imposing cruelties, you know, they were swaying the king and the nobility.
	There were lots of very, they were daily doing slave trading.
	They were doing white slave trading.
	I mean, there's a lot of very practical reasons why they didn't like the Jews and, you know, why there were periodic pogroms and so forth.
	They didn't like circumcision either.
	They saw circumcision as bad.
	I mean, I wouldn't want people mutilating their kids.
	Imagine all the problems they had back in the day with infections and stuff without modern medicine, with the circumcisions they were doing.
	They got, cut this out.
	And they rebelled and went to war over not being able to chop off the foreskins of their young boys.
	It's amazing.
	Genital mutilation.
	Normally that's considered a crime, but the Jews call that a good thing.
	So yeah, we need to call it what it is.
	200 years ago.
	So the Christians venerated the Roman Empire, even as they were attacking Jews for most of its history.
	Yeah.
	It was very odd.
	You know, when you think of the text, it comes from, you know, Israel and the Middle East.
	It's Jewish by nature.
	And then the book becomes, at least the New Testament becomes about Roman ideas.
	This fits very in with the Roman culture.
	They idolize Rome and definitely anti-Jewish, very anti-Jewish.
	And increasingly anti-Jewish, but also acknowledging that they were once God's chosen people, which is their ultimate objective.
	They have two objectives: get the nations to worship the God of Israel and to basically that's it.
	That's the big objective.
	And that did that.
	And maybe the only way they could get the nations to worship the God of Israel is to create a religion that they pretended like they were against.
	That's kind of the way I see it.
	You know?
	Yeah, right.
	Because, like I said, nobody loved the Jews, right?
	I mean, they had a tough position.
	Everybody hated them.
	I mean, for, like I say, literally for hundreds of years.
	So how do you get the people to sort of, you know, be on your side in any sense when they hate you?
	Right?
	I mean, that's a tough row to hoe.
	So, you know, that's why they had to really, you know, concoct these crazy mythological superstitious stories that was their only hope of somehow, you know, it was a trick.
	I mean, I think it really was.
	It was a kind of a ploy to get people to believe in the essentials of the Jewish worldview without kind of getting them to be Jews or even realizing that they were really buying into a Jewish story.
	Maybe people thought it was an anti-Jewish story because, well, the Jews killed Jesus.
	Oh, okay, then it's okay.
	I wouldn't buy into a pro-Jewish religion, but it's an anti-Jewish religion.
	And the masses are like, yeah, okay, I'll buy into that one.
	So yeah, they can throw little tidbits of anti-Jewishness, and that probably satisfied the masses' instinctual objection to even believing this stuff.
	Would ancient Jews prefer an enemy in an opposition that worships their God or doesn't worship their God when that was their ultimate goal to get everybody to worship their God?
	All right.
	Anti-Semitic.
	The original documents are increasingly ferocious in their anti-Semitism, as far as I can tell.
	But from the outset, it was anti-Jewish nationalism.
	It was anti-Jewish separatism.
	It was anti-Torah.
	It was Torah critical.
	Paul is beginning to peel off, you know, we don't have to worry about kosher diet or circumcision.
	And that was him speaking to Gentiles, not to Jews.
	More than that, we're worshiping a God-man.
	More than that, we're drinking his blood.
	We're drinking blood.
	Now, under normal Torah sensibilities, that's anathema and extreme.
	Or a human god-man.
	Now, previous Jewish conceptions of the Messiah.
	Okay, so this is important.
	He's undermining his own argument here, from my opinion.
	He's saying Christianity is so antithetical to Judaism.
	That's because it wasn't made for Jews.
	It was made to keep Jews away from it, basically.
	That's why it was anti-Semitic, too.
	Anti-Jewish.
	You see what I mean?
	No reason to get Jews to buy into this story.
	We like to like them just the way they are.
	This is for the superstitious masses who buy into a Roman pantheon or a Greek pantheon, and we want to get them over here sort of in our side of the ballpark, you know, so that's what they're going to, that's what they're going to present.
	And it's like if you're trying to target, if you're Rome trying to target messianic, you know, rebellious militant Jews, are you going to create a religion that's like completely, what's the word I'm looking for?
	completely not kosher to Judaism?
	Right?
	And from the Jewish perspective, they see Christianity as representing Satan and he's tempting them to be idol worshipers.
	So it's like a test, essentially, to weed out the mixed multitude of souls.
	They get deep with it.
	But rabbis have an explanation for what he's confused about here.
	Might believe that he was a special guy.
	There might be miracles.
	You know, Moses, David, I mean, there were miracles associated with things they did, but he's a man.
	He's not God.
	The Messiah identified as God, as Christian literature increasingly does.
	First, they suggest he's God.
	Jesus can forgive sins.
	He's born of a virgin.
	You know, that kind of thing to tell us, oh, yeah, he is God.
	But by the time you get to the Gospel of John, it is absolutely plain Jesus is God or form of God.
	He was the word.
	He was with God and was there at the creation and a pre-existent being that you can almost identify with God.
	This is again stupid.
	Paul describes Jesus as a pre-existent being also.
	So that didn't start with John again wrong.
	And also by the time you got to John, the Jews and Judas were simply possessed by the devil.
	That's how anti-Semitic we're getting by the time of John.
	Quite striking.
	Okay, so you mentioned...
	Paul says, I got this message from my own revelation.
	And Jesus' brother and best friend disagree with me about it.
	This clearly suggests that Paul is the creator of the anti-Torah stuff in Christianity, and that the original Jesus movement was at least Torah Orthodox.
	And because why would you, even if this is the standard Christian explanation?
	Well, James and Kephas went back to Jewish ways after Jesus had Jesus of the Gospels and criticized Torah.
	Why would James and Kephas have such a fierce argument?
	They would have said, okay, yeah, you and your Gentile mission can do that.
	After all, Jesus had given us the green light.
	But no, Paul never cites Jesus.
	He could have won the argument just by quoting one of those famous Jesus in the Gospel says, nothing you put into your body is impure or defiles.
	You see, you can make a bunch of arguments with the presupposition that Jesus was a real person that completely collapse if you have the presupposition that he was a mythical character.
	In this explanation, it's important.
	You have thoughts or should I go?
	Well, yeah, just quickly, you know, I guess I'm, in a sense, I'm agnostic on whether he was an actual physical person or just a literary creation, because both will work for a Jesus hoax thesis.
	I mean, you know, it could go either way.
	And there's, you know, because there's virtually no evidence, contemporaneous evidence of Jesus, rabbi Jesus, let alone miracle Jesus, you know, then we don't have really any good reason to believe he actually existed.
	As I say, the only reason that I think it's possible or maybe even probable that there was a mortal Jesus is because a hoax works best when there's a kernel of truth, where there's a grain of truth at the center.
	And if you had a rabbi who was an agitator, political agitator, opposed Rome, you know, spoke on behalf of the poor, got a little too rebellious and got himself crucified, and then his body is taken away and disappeared.
	Well, that's a nice little core of truth to build your fabulous kind of Pauline Christianity around.
	So, you know, that's really, it's a very indirect evidence.
	I don't have any more evidence than that.
	But I suspect, you know, the hoax works best when they know that there was an actual person.
	No, I agree with that.
	I still think that my point stands, though, that when you're trying to analyze like the origins of Christianity, like, you know, some arguments make sense if there was a real Jesus, and some, but they won't make sense if it was a mythical Jesus.
	So that's like an important presupposition, you know, that we're debating these different ideas.
	It's what comes out of your body.
	So he's attacking the whole of kosher diet.
	He's attacking the whole purity regime.
	And so under Mosaic law.
	The historical Jesus could not have credibly said that.
	Jesus and his first followers were Torah Orthodox.
	And there was a movement of original Jesus followers, I think, and the Ebionites demonstrate that, I think, among other things.
	I do believe there's a historical Jesus for other reasons, largely Bard Ehrman's reasons.
	Paul, the first, quote, Christian writer, does believe in a historical Jesus.
	Josephus mentions it in the first century.
	I think we have plenty of evidence.
	More than that.
	Why would you invent a simple fact like dude crucified under Pilate?
	Unless there's a reason to believe that that would be invented.
	I'm going with a dude who was crucified under Pilate.
	But if he was, he was crucified for being a credible heir to David and therefore a political threat to the Romans.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Well, you went where I was going to go with my question.
	So what do you think about the idea of Paul kind of innovating the Jesus idea to the Gentiles and taking it from like the Nazarenes or the Jerusalem church or Ebionites, like you said?
	Share your thoughts on that.
	Yeah.
	I mean, well, we don't know really much about the Ebionites.
	I mean, they were basically sort of allegedly believing in a kind of a mortal Jesus who was born of, you know, a father and mother and then died and got crucified on a cross and then he was done, right?
	So it's a very, it's a very mundane, earthly kind of view of Jesus, which I suspect, as I said, I think there's probably good reason to think that that was true.
	So I agree.
	I mean, the way they go, oh, there's no way that they could make up that Jesus was crucified under Pilate.
	I do think that there's, I think the whole passion narrative, like, if you believe the idea of Jesus and Barabbas and Pilate, like that's, that's all the evidence that we really have in the Gospels for Pilate being involved in this, right?
	That whole gospel narrative is just quote mine from Old Testament scripture.
	The whole plot there is being inspired by picking and choosing different verses of the Old Testament, sometimes prophecy, sometimes just completely out of context.
	Well, they're all out of context, really.
	But it's put in a Roman context because, I mean, the Romans did have political agitators.
	They didn't crucify them.
	That was a Roman method of execution.
	So, yeah, that's what Paul's doing.
	He's snatching these Old Testament ideas, putting them in a Roman context so that it makes sense to the contemporary audience, and then he goes from there.
	So I think that's the best possible explanation.
	Paul never says that Pilate killed Jesus, by the way.
	He never names Pilate as doing that.
	He doesn't say a lot of things about Jesus.
	Yeah.
	And the Pilate story that we have is literally just completely a retelling of Yom Kippur.
	So anyway.
	And it was about...
	So that was kind of where that is.
	But my question was about the Shish.
	And then you look at the Dead Sea Scrolls.
	You see the Essenes, the stuff they were writing, which I do think the Essenes are related to these Gnostic Jewish sects that one of the branches evolved into Christianity.
	I do think that's what happened.
	And then you go look at the war scroll and the stuff in the Dead Sea Scrolls about Melchizedek scroll and stuff.
	And then that is a giveaway that it's a Midrash.
	It's a Pesher because that's what they were doing with the Melchizedek scroll.
	And here is Rabbi saying lots of I've seen several rabbis say that Christianity is Midrash and Pesher.
	And Carrier says the same thing.
	All right.
	Like much Christianity, all right?
	Like much of mystical Judaism is built upon a fundamental mystical Judaism.
	That's Kabbalah.
	Christianity, like Kabbalah, is built on.
	I don't call it a mistake because I don't want to sound offensive or insulting in any which way, but Christianity was built out of Judaism on Jewish Midrash.
	And that becomes very clear and evident.
	For example, if you look at the actual teachings of Yeshi as the historical individual that he was, even in his own day, they say, how come he's speaking in parables and symbolisms and the like?
	That's a very common Jewish way to teach.
	It is what we call Midrashim.
	All right?
	Very, very common.
	The angel of the Lord, the one who brings the word of God called Torah.
	And interestingly, the word of God.
	These first ones in Philo, the original Greek word, he referred to them as logos.
	Did you ever hear that word logos?
	For those of you who might be familiar with a little Christian theology, you might be familiar in the book of John of the Christian Bible.
	It says, in the beginning was the word, and the word was Greek logos.
	That was the Torah.
	I've always told people that was a rather Kabbalistic concept, put in John's words.
	It's not a common thing.
	John don't understand the original Jewish petriton.
	That's nonsense.
	Logos was God in Heraclitus.
	That's 450 BC.
	It's a lifting exactly from Greek philosophy.
	It's got nothing to do with the Jews.
	But with Philo linking Logos to the anointed Yeshua heavenly archangel character, that's what I think he's referring to there, that it was a Jewish concept.
	Okay.
	And in John, the way that they re-rewrite the beginning of Genesis with Logos there as Jesus, that's a Kabbalistic type of writing.
	That's what he was saying.
	Yeah.
	So you got that out of context.
	I mean, you listen to it without the context is what I meant to say.
	So this is what I'm getting at.
	Okay, they say the Romans created it, or oh, it's just, you know, happened naturally.
	I see it as a Kabbalistic prophecy deception and a mythical Jesus because of this reason.
	Now, here's the video from, I know we got to wrap it up soon, Tier.
	We got some super chats also.
	This is another rabbi who's not a rabbi, Jewish scholar.
	Oh, wait.
	We're going to play it from here.
	This is his book about how Paul was a Kabbalist, his video, 170,000 views on YouTube.
	Paul, the recent convert to the Messianic Jesus movement, seems to have had just such experiences throughout his lifetime.
	Sometime after his conversion, following a previous mystical experience.
	Mystical, Kabbalistic, visionary experiences is what he's explaining.
	On the road to Damascus, Paul would enter into an ecstatic state by his own account, in which his Lord, the resurrected Jesus, would give him direction that would alter the course of human history.
	To go and preach about the messianic and salvific redemption achieved by Jesus the Christ to non-Jews to spread this otherwise Jewish movement to the wider Gentile world.
	This is the reality of what happened.
	A Kabbalistic, mythical, prophecy-fulfilling deception that targeted the Gentile world.
	This is exactly what I'm saying it is.
	But when I say it, I'm censored and called an anti-Semitic conspiracy theorist for just quoting and summarizing what other people say.
	Oh, it's the Romans that did it, though.
	That's the serious theory that we're going to entertain.
	Because he did not say the hated Gentiles whom we have detested for centuries and who we are fated to rule over.
	He didn't say that.
	The weasel there, he left out the key context, which is, yeah, we're going to bring this to the Gentiles because we hate them and we're going to rule and dominate them.
	That's the whole, that's the complete picture.
	Oh, we didn't say that.
	No, that would be bad.
	We can't have the anti-Semitic.
	So, yeah, there you go.
	Nice little half-truth there, right?
	And I'd like to point out, too, also, Gershom Sholem, got two of his books here, Messianic Idea and Judaism.
	He is the most authoritarian, authoritative, respected scholar, Jewish, Israeli, worked at an Israeli university on Kabbalah, biggest expert on Kabbalah.
	He has likened Christianity to the Dead Sea Scrolls and Kabbalah.
	He says both Kabbalah and Christianity kind of evolved out of this Essene Dead Sea Scroll Jewish Gnostic communities.
	And also that Paul was basically engaging in like Kabbalah mystic, proto-Kabbalah mysticism.
	Paul may have disclosed clues to this world-altering mystical vision some 14 years later while vying for apostolic authority in the community of believers at Corinth.
	What he reveals, although elliptically, to be honest, is still shocking.
	Paul seems to have been a practitioner of an ancient esoteric form of Jewish mysticism in which adherents ascend and really descend into the palaces of the most holy, supernal temple to witness the divine glory upon which the chariot throne of God rests.
	And in turn, to be transformed, the mystic is transformed into a glorified, quasi-angelic being.
	In fact, these elements of Merkava or chariot mysticism may form the basis for the earliest layer of Christian theological speculations there in the work of Paul.
	Thus, an incredibly ancient, esoteric, and apocalyptic form of Jewish mysticism may very well lie at the foundation of both Paul's preaching to the wider Gentile world and the theological core of the earliest Christian theology.
	That's just the intro.
	This is exactly what I've been saying.
	That Paul created a Kabbalistic mystical Midrash-Pesher deception on the Gentiles.
	And look at this.
	Paul in 2 Corinthians talks about how he is taken up to the third heaven and learned mysteries that he cannot speak of, right?
	Kabbalah, early Christianity, they're all mystery religions.
	They're all about keeping secrets.
	No conspiracies, though.
	They don't have any secrets and conspiracies.
	And so, oh, so Paul's goes up Merkava, mysticism, chariots, Ezekiel's chariots, visions.
	This is what Paul supposedly had as well.
	And this is so similar to Ascension of Isaiah, which you probably read about in Carrier's book or done your own research.
	That's an early, very early Christian book where Jesus is crucified up in heaven by Satan and his angels as a trick against Satan, which ties into a whole bunch of other things on the Christian deception.
	But see where I'm coming from?
	This seems like it's a mythical, mythical Jesus Kabbalah deception that targeted the Gentiles.
	Yeah, I think that would be an interesting story.
	I've not seen that document anywhere where you could sort of make all those connections explicit, but that would be an interesting little essay to put someone to put together at some point for sure.
	Okay.
	And this is the attitude that they have toward conspiracy.
	Genealogy thing of Matthew and Luke, though they contradict, you already see these authors.
	I'll just use the word invent, but I don't mean that necessarily in like some weird conspiracy to invent a guy and put him on earth necessarily.
	I mean it in like again with this attitude like it's not a conspiracy.
	Nobody had any motive.
	There was no agenda.
	This was fulfilling.
	No goals fulfilled.
	Yeah, they invented a fake character.
	They forged documents.
	They lied and pretended that he was real and these things really happened and sold it to the Gentiles through fear and through the carrot and stick.
	But it's not a conspiracy though.
	You see what these guys are all doing here?
	Yeah.
	No, right.
	Absolutely not.
	Don't want to go there, boy.
	Dudes are probably doing this all the time.
	Oh, my great grandpa actually is so-and-so who I descended from a long time ago.
	Let's do the super chats and close it out.
	Yeah.
	Because I know you got to get going.
	All right.
	Thanks, everybody.
	John Garatis says, David, where can we find you and how can we support your work?
	Ever considered creating an Odyssey channel where it is easier for followers to support your creators.
	What about a YouTube channel or something, too?
	Have you thought about that?
	For me?
	I don't know.
	I'm kind of a conventional scholar.
	I try to minimize my technology time as much as possible.
	That probably sounds a little bit more high tech than I'd like to get into.
	Yeah, you're the anti-tech guru.
	That's right.
	Yeah, so you guys do good work.
	I'm happy to be on your podcast and your own channels rather than creating my own.
	All right.
	Well, if anybody out there, you want to see David on other people's shows, email them, message them, tweet to them, whatever if you want to see more.
	I want to see him on more.
	In fact, I emailed Modern Day Debates like I told you I would and suggested you and sent them a link to see that you're not a crank.
	And I didn't hear back from him, so I don't know.
	Thank you, John Garatis.
	But where can they find you?
	Your website and stuff?
	We can do that plug now.
	Yeah, just davidscarbina.com.
	So that's my personal website.
	Lists a lot of my research interests.
	I'm not a one-trick pony like James Valiant, for example.
	I do a lot of different work in philosophy and philosophy of mind, philosophy of technology, and religion is sort of one of my areas of interest.
	And then the book again is The Jesus Hoax.
	It's an easy read.
	It's a popular sort of book.
	I'm working on a second edition, which I hope to have out later this year, which will be expanded argumentation.
	It will address a lot of the counter-arguments against the thesis and so forth.
	But it's turned out to be quite a popular book, The Jesus Hoax.
	Awesome.
	Well, I hope I've helped with that.
	No more noose.
	Funny spelling there.
	Thank you.
	Says, with Tisha Ba'av fast approaching, we need to hear this clip of the rabbi saying, happy is the one that takes the babies of Edom and then we break bread.
	It's amazing.
	I don't have that with the ready, but I do have quite the database of supremacist rabbi clips.
	My world says, I'm negative 1K right now on a long.
	Someone please save me from liquidation.
	Okay.
	Arian Monster says, everybody needs bigger glasses to see the Jewish conspiracies.
	Tris Troth says, hi, Adam and David, longtime listener, but never really interacted.
	Well, thank you.
	I think mythicists grant way too much with respect to the authenticity of any religious text.
	I recommend reading Antiqua Matter and Rise of English Culture by Edwin Johnson, a key scholar in demonstrating major flaws in chronology.
	Mythicists grant way too much with respect to authenticity.
	You mean historicist?
	Because mythicists would think that they're not authentic.
	I'm confused, but I'll look up those links.
	Thank you very much.
	And thank you for finally participating.
	John Garratus, again, thumbs up for the God voice.
	There was a lot of demand for the God voice to come back.
	It's a nice touch.
	It's a big hit.
	Absolutely.
	Don't get to talk to God too often.
	So it's nice to hear from him personally.
	Yeah.
	Don't eat the ground.
	Aryan perspective says, don't eat the ground beef.
	That's how they get rid of the child ritual victims.
	Do you really think they raise enough?
	I'm not.
	Okay.
	Snap Out of It says, hats off to you both for the incredible work.
	Alibaba says, thank you, Snap Out of It.
	You're awesome.
	Alibaba says, hi, gentlemen.
	What would Messiah do to Africans and Asians if he destroys the West?
	What would happen next?
	They're not considered the West, but the end's not good for them either.
	They are considered Esau.
	Soul Indigis says, thanks for bringing Dr. Scurbina on.
	Adam, looking forward to reading his book.
	Just because the mainstream won't cover these issues doesn't mean people aren't waking up.
	The truth will prevail.
	Yeah, I really would like to see more people talking about this, more people bringing you on, more people wanting to debate.
	They don't want to.
	What does that tell you?
	What does it tell you that I've never had anybody make videos or write an article refuting the hundreds of hours of material that I put out?
	And I bring the receipts, I show the clips, I show the original sources.
	But no, it's just, it's standing uncontested, basically.
	All I get is, you hate all Jews.
	You're a Nazi.
	You're an anti-Semitic conspiracy.
	That's the only thing.
	The Christians dismiss what I cover by calling me a Jew, a secret Jew, which I'm not.
	And then the other side calls me a Nazi.
	Neither are true.
	Neither are arguments.
	This is just evading having an honest conversation about these things.
	That's standard, right?
	When you have no reply to a strong argument, you slander the person, you use polemics, and then you try to censor them.
	That's the standard tactic.
	So that's what they're doing.
	It's not surprising.
	It's kind of an old playbook, unfortunately.
	Very dishonorable, for sure.
	Yep.
	And Patrick, thank you for the 34 there, says, in honor of the 34 U.S. sailors killed 56 years ago today by the Israeli military, never forget the USS Liberty.
	Yes, that is right.
	It is the anniversary on the USS Liberty attack.
	And I may do a stream later on to cover that.
	Anything?
	That's all we have for today.
	Appreciate you all for the generous donations.
	Any final thoughts, Dr. Scurbina, before we wrap it up?
	Any points that you had on your mind that you wanted to get out that we didn't get to or anything, or parting words for us?
	No, I think we hit it all.
	You know, just it raises some good questions, and we have to think about what we can do next, you know, how to press ahead, maybe some special topics for future shows, things that we could go into a little bit more detail on.
	Like I said, I'd like to talk about Jewish dominion and the Old Testament.
	I think people don't understand that.
	I'd like to talk about the history, the pre-Christian history of how the Jews hated humanity, the misanthropic stance that's been recognized by so many people in the pre-Christian era.
	That's another eye-opening thing.
	And then that really sets the stage.
	You really see that the Jews are really detested by other people.
	They hate other people.
	It's kind of a two-way hate fest for like hundreds of years.
	And I think nobody really wants, no, they don't know about it and they don't want to talk about it because it has lots of bad implications.
	So, you know, we could do a whole show just sort of on that piece, the Dominion and the misanthropocentric stance of the ancient Jews.
	That would be a great show to do sometime.
	I'm down.
	Let's do it in a few weeks.
	That sounds like an awesome show to do.
	I love having you on.
	Everybody loves having you on.
	We always get good feedback.
	The videos do well.
	Really appreciate you for coming on.
	I enjoyed it.
	Everybody enjoyed it, apparently.
	Big cheers from the crowd.
	So I look forward to you finishing the new book.
	And can't wait to see what everybody has to say in the comments.
	Buy his book.
	It's on Amazon.
	His websites.
	Links will be below.
	No morenews.org.
	Best way to find all my links and join on Odyssey to subscribe, support the channel, and help me continue doing these videos.
	Love you all.
	Thank you, Dr. Scurbina.
	I will talk to you again very soon.

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