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March 16, 2022 - Know More News - Adam Green
01:06:13
The Truth About Jesus | Know More News LIVE w/ Dr. Michael Brown
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Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to No More News Live.
Thank you all so much for joining me once again today, Tuesday, March 15th, 2022.
I have a much anticipated guest finally here today.
I had a debate with him almost two years ago, October 24th, 2019.
And he is back.
He is a world-renowned Messianic Jew and biblical scholar, cultural commentator.
He's on his YouTube channel at Ask Dr. Brown and his daily radio show, The Line of Fire.
And he is here today to discuss his one of his top books about Christian anti-Semitism.
Our hands are stained with blood.
We're going to talk about Christian anti-Semitism, prophecy, and much more.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for your time.
Dr. Michael Brown.
Glad to talk with you, Adam.
Glad I can be here.
Happy to have you.
I've been wanting to talk to you for the longest time because a lot of my research is actually stuff that you've been covering for years.
And, you know, people may not believe it.
You're Jewish, but you're not a Christian, but a Messianic Jew and a Jewish believer in Jesus, right?
Want to be technical there?
Yeah, so many people would call me a Christian, and I have no issue with that if they understand it means I didn't stop being Jewish any more than I didn't stop being male.
So for your average Jew, when they hear being a Christian, or if you're talking to an Israeli, talking about being a Christian, that means you're no longer a Jew.
So I don't practice Judaism.
I don't follow the religion of the rabbis.
I respect many of their beliefs, but don't follow their traditions or submit to their authority.
So the term Christian only occurs three times in the New Testament, and it was an outside title that people gave to the followers of Jesus to make fun of them.
You're one of these Christies.
It would be like someone that followed you calling them a greenie or a greenite.
So that's all it meant.
People were being identified with him.
Over the centuries, it often came to mean a totally separate religion that cut itself off from its Jewish roots.
So to say I'm a Jewish follower of Jesus or a Messianic Jew, for some, that's synonymous with being Christian.
For others, it's different.
So we make that distinction so that people understand better.
I see.
And, you know, I find it interesting.
The chats in the audience may not believe it, but I think actually many rabbis view Dr. Brown as a much greater threat than anything any Gentile anti-Semite does because your goal essentially is to turn Jews into recognizing that Jesus is their Messiah, correct?
Yep, absolutely.
So Adam, what you said is true.
Obviously, a Gentile anti-Semite, a Jew hater, is going to be looked at with concern in the Jewish community because of our history.
But I've had religious Jews get very upset with me and say, Hitler wanted our bodies, you want our souls.
So many will look at me as an arch deceiver as doing the worst work of all.
Now, some would say, hey, look, you weren't raised in a religious Jewish home.
You were a drug user.
You got caught up in all this when you were a teenager.
You don't know any better, you know, but that's the charitable view.
And even though I'm dear friends with rabbis and we've interacted for years, yeah, I was another rabbi branded me public enemy number one some years ago because we've been effective in debating and reaching out to you.
No, it was another guy, Ariel Barth Sadok, who was more of a mystical rabbi.
Toby Singer, he and I debated in the early 90s, but then he's cut me off since then and refused to debate.
Others I've had great dialogue with for years, but not Tovia.
I watched your guys' debate.
And, you know, I've watched, I've binge-watched almost all your debates that I could find on YouTube.
They've been going back decades.
You've been doing this.
And I admire anybody that's willing to get in the ring.
You get in the ring, you know, come on here with me, even though I'm not your typical person you do streams with.
But one thing I noticed is that you are critical of their Talmud and the Zohar because they come at you for the New Testament.
So you criticize their texts as well.
But you also use their texts to help them, Jews, or any type of Jew, Orthodox, conservative, to use their books to help them see that Jesus actually is their Messiah.
And I think you're right.
I think you're, for the most part, winning these debates, winning these arguments.
And I see what you see.
I don't believe that it's all real, but I do see Jesus as their Messiah, almost a secret, hidden Messiah.
Yeah, you know, it's really interesting, Adam.
Obviously, there'd be a ton of differences that you and I have, and people might criticize you for having me on your channel or criticize me for being on your channel.
But as I've told you when we dialogued off the air, that I see where you're coming from.
I may totally differ with your conclusion, but I see how you got there.
I see that you're trying to put pieces of a puzzle together.
And again, we'll come to profoundly different conclusions and have different worldviews, but I understand how you're getting where you're getting.
And that's probably why you can watch the debates and appreciate some of the dialogue.
So someone might say, well, how could you be critical of the Talmud and use the Talmud?
Well, the Talmud is 20 volumes, the core text about four and a half million words, but expanded in massive commentary.
It's got lots of different opinions and views within it.
So I do not submit to the authority of the Talmud.
If I was a traditional Jew, then those books would be absolutely sacred to me.
And the rabbis quoted there, they would be my spiritual leaders, and I would be under their spiritual authority.
Just like if someone was Catholic, they would look to the popes through history and Christian leaders through history that are Catholic.
But at the same time, there are many things the Talmud states that I would agree with or affirm and find to be beautiful.
And then there may be interpretations that I hold to, and the same interpretations are found there in the Talmud.
So I can tell a traditional Jew, look, I'm not trying to say the rabbis believed in Jesus, but I am saying we've got some parallel thoughts here, some parallel concepts here.
What I'm saying to you, so consider it.
That's an angle.
And that means you have to use the texts honestly, right?
Like I could pull something from one of your videos, take it out of context, and make you say something you're not saying.
But to take the thing fairly and to use it honestly, we ought to do that.
So your audience is largely consists of, well, many Christians, but also you're trying to teach Jews about Jesus.
And my audience, I'm trying to, you're talking to a lot of quote-unquote Christian anti-Semites will end up watching this video and be in the comments.
And I've been critical of them.
And I've actually gotten anti-Semitism, a lot of anti-Semitism towards me, despite not having one drop of zero blood and basically dedicating the last seven years of my life to exposing Zionism online.
These Christians that are anti-Semites, can you explain to them where in the Talmud, where are the places in the Talmud that you use to show that Jesus is the Messiah?
Right.
So one thing would be the Talmudic concept of the atoning power of the death of the righteous.
So that Judaism would look at, let's say, you've got a wicked criminal who gets struck by lightning, right?
A murderer gets struck by lightning.
People might say, hey, you know, he took life, he lost life.
That's fair.
You know, most people wouldn't have a hard time with that, right?
But what if it's this sweet little child, this three-year-old child, and they get hit by lightning?
It's like, how is it fair?
Or let's say a 30-year-old guy who is the kindest, godliest, most charitable human being you know, and he gets struck by lightning.
It's like, that makes no sense.
So, trying to figure out these concepts of suffering, the rabbis said that sometimes a righteous person will die or an innocent child will die to pay for the sins Of a generation, meaning that there's guilt that's accumulated in the generation.
Look at it like this.
I've got a credit card.
I'm so rich that it'll cover a million dollars.
And all my family has gotten a million dollars in debt now.
I'll say, I'll pay for it all.
I can afford it.
So someone that's so righteous could theoretically pay for the sins of a generation.
That's a concept taught in traditional Judaism that they may die, and the reason they died was to pay for the sins of others.
Well, that sounds like the gospel, that Jesus, who was perfectly righteous, died to pay for all of our sins.
So that would be the kind of thing I'd say, hey, look, this concept that sounds so foreign to you, you look at Christianity and think that it's human sacrifice.
No, it's not that at all.
It's the righteous one laying down his life to pay for the sins of everyone else.
It's the high priest of Melchizedek, the Moshiach ben-Joseph, the suffering Messiah that was prophesied to be killed and then exalted.
And, you know, you don't even need to look at the Talmud to find, you know, atonement, vicarious scapegoat atonement sacrifices because Jesus is basically a retelling of Yom Kippur in a way.
He is the Yom Kippur and the Passover sacrifices.
Would you agree with that?
Right.
So ultimately, the whole sacrificial system of life for life, of the innocent taking the place of the guilty, and then joined with repentance that brings forgiveness, right?
So the whole sacrificial system is pointing to the Messiah.
Or you mentioned a high priest, Numbers 35.
It tells us that if you shed someone's blood, then that pollutes the land.
And the only thing that can pay for that is the blood of the one who shed it.
So you take a life, you lose your life.
What if it was accidental?
What if you're chopping with an axe and the axe goes flying off and kills someone?
Well, you're still liable for their life, but it was accidental.
So in Israelite law, you could go to a place called the city of refuge and the family members, the relatives could not take vengeance against you because it was accidental.
And you stayed there the rest of your life or until the high priest died.
And when the high priest died, you were free.
So the high priest represented the people and his death then could pay for that innocent bloodshed.
So these are concepts in the Bible.
And yes, the Talmud is building on a biblical concept as well, the idea of scapegoating or the righteous laying down his life for the unrighteous.
So it's in the Bible, but it's also in Jewish tradition as well.
So I'm using this as a bridge.
I'm not saying that the rabbis in the Talmud believed in Jesus.
Clearly they didn't.
But I'm saying, hey, this is a conceptual bridge that helps you realize this is not a foreign religion with a foreign concept.
It's something found within our own scriptures.
And I'm kind of having the battle with Christians who are anti-Jewish, which they're kind of a fringe minority.
It used to be much more prevalent.
Many Christians are phylo-Semitic now, but they're so hell-bent on saying that Jesus isn't Jewish and that the Jews hate him and he rebuked them and all of that.
You have a joke.
I just heard it earlier today.
What's the joke about Jesus being Jewish?
Oh, yeah.
So this is a Jewish joke that I repeated.
Four ways that we know he was Jewish.
First, he was 30 and unmarried.
Second, he went into his father's business.
Third, he thought his mother was a virgin.
Fourth, his mother thought he was God.
So again, you grow up in a Jewish home, you can relate to some of the humor there.
But look, the Nazis had actually published a New Testament that tried to take out Jewishness from it, take out the Jewishness of Jesus.
So verses like John 4, 22, where Jesus himself says, salvation is of the Jews, that had to be pulled out.
And they had a whole theological institute to try to prove he was of Aryan descent and wasn't actually Jewish.
Of course, it's complete and utter nonsense on every score.
And any historian worth his or her salt recognizes the Jewishness of Jesus.
You know, I mean, it's as absurd as arguing that Elijah Muhammad wasn't a black man, you know, or Donald Trump isn't a white man.
You know, it's so utterly, completely absurd.
But look, it's one thing to say that the Jewish leadership rejected him.
It's one thing to say that Jews as a majority as a whole have not believed in him through the centuries.
That's true.
It's another thing to say he's not Jewish or to demonize all Jews as Christ haters and Christ killers.
But that's what's happened, sadly, through church history, that Jews as a whole, in any generation, were called Christ killers.
And if they're Christ killers and Christ is God, then they're guilty of deicide.
They're guilty of killing God.
So, I mean, that's how absurd it got.
And Jews, I had an anti-Semite on my show one day, and in his view, clearly, Jews in all generations are guilty of the crucifixion of Jesus.
You're talking about E. Michael Jones, right?
Yes, sir.
I'm debating him next week.
Seriously.
Yeah.
On Christianity.
Yeah.
If you don't mind, if I can just ask you a question about you, right?
We talked off the air for a while on the phone one day, and I got to understand you a little bit better.
But in your mind, are you simply looking for truth wherever it leads?
Or is there any religious bent or a desire to disprove religion that's in you?
Well, because I was raised Christian and indoctrinated as a child and came out of that, I would be lying.
There wasn't a little bit of that there that inspires the interest in religion.
But no, I am just looking for the truth.
And, you know, my research has led me that I think that actually Christianity is basically a Torah hoax.
It's a Torah prophecy deception that was targeted the Gentiles with it.
And I'll segue this into a question.
You are very often say, you know, all of Christianity was prophesied in the Bible, the rejection of the Messiah, that he would rise from the dead, that he would go to the nations and not be accepted by his people, and that that would be the light into the world.
So was the rejection of the Messiah, if that was part of the script, part of the prophecy, what needed to happen, wasn't the persecution of the Jews by the Christians also part of that while they're in exile?
A bad part of it.
In other words, Paul warned against it.
And Paul said, no, just remember, if the Jewish people had repented as a leadership and then as a nation, once Jesus rose from the dead, then things could have unfolded very differently, right?
But God foresaw what would happen and laid out.
It's not that he made people do certain things.
He foresaw what would happen and laid things out based on that.
But Paul warned Gentile believers in Rome not to be arrogant and not to think, hey, we are the new Israel and we are the new Jews and therefore God is true with you.
They also write about times of the Gentiles.
I'm sorry.
You cut out a bit there.
Sorry, go ahead.
Yeah, yeah, sure.
Yeah, so basically it's as if I said, hey, I got a couple extra rooms in my house because some people have moved out.
And next thing you take over the whole house and kick me out.
So Paul warned against that arrogance based on ignorance.
And that's part of why the church got off in certain ways and fell into anti-Semitism and things like that.
But as for the times of the Gentiles, yes, in Romans 11, it does mention that specifically the fullness of the Gentiles there, talking about Gentiles from around the world coming to worship the Lord.
And when that happens, then the finality of Israel's salvation.
And then times of the Gentiles in Luke 21, that's Gentile dominance over Israel, the land of Israel, Gentile dominance over Jerusalem.
So what you hotly oppose, Christian Zionism, I wholeheartedly Support not everything Israel does, but believe that it's God who brought the Jewish people back to the land against all odds and who reestablished Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
So this is a sign that we're getting towards the end of the times of the Gentiles, as I understand the Bible.
So do you think that this, as we see in the Talmud Sanhedrin 97b, the 6,000 years of the world, the final 2,000 years are meant to be the period of the coming of the Messiah?
Is this the time of the Gentiles, the last 2,000 years since.
Yes, so if this is one opinion that's given in the Talmud, and it's Tana Debay Eliyahu.
So it's the teaching of the school of Eliyahu, of Elijah.
But it is an oft-repeated tradition.
In other words, the Talmud has many, many different opinions.
This is one of them, but it's a highly respected opinion.
So it says that the earth will exist for 6,000 years.
So the first 2,000 years are a period of chaos.
And that's from Adam until Abraham.
And then the next 2,000 years are the period of Torah.
Now, Abraham is about 500, 600 years before Moses, but traditional Jews believe that God revealed the Torah to him.
So 2,000 years there.
And then the last 2,000 years, roughly from around the time that Jesus came until today, that would be the time of the Messiah.
So the Talmudic question is, well, what happened?
We should have been well into the Messianic era now.
And the answer is, well, because of our sins, the time passed and he didn't come yet.
My answer would be, because of our sins, he did come and we missed him.
This is a Talmudic text that I would use to point in that direction.
And to say, look, everything's on schedule.
He did come, but things did not start the way we expected them to start.
But if you look at scripture, you see this is the way it's unfolding.
So this is very important.
You know, many people have a misunderstanding that the Jews were only expecting a militarily victorious king Messiah, but that's not true at all.
They believed in two messiahs, and the first one would be a suffering high priest that would die and atone and go to the Gentiles.
Let me just jump in and say, as I understand things.
Number one, there were diversities of views about, quote, the Messiah in the first century.
Certainly the greatest expectation would be a king from the line of David who would rule and reign and therefore would break the power of Rome and free the Jewish people from the tyranny of other nations and would regather the exiles.
That was certainly a primary belief.
But we know from Jewish literature of the day, including the Dead Sea Scrolls, that there was talk of two Messiahs, and the two Messiahs that were first spoken of were one from the line of David and one from the line of Aaron.
So the high priest would play a key role, some kind of messianic role.
There's not clear text saying that he would die and rise or anything like that.
Some have alleged that, but I don't see that.
On the other hand, in the centuries that followed, a clear belief was developed in Messiah's son of Joseph.
And then he would fight in the last great war and be killed and then would be raised from the dead.
And there are some that look for these parallels in terms of Jesus paralleling the Messiah ben Yosef and Shiach ben Yosef.
And then they'll talk to religious Jews and say, hey, look, you're looking for two different Messiahs.
Just look for one who had two different functions.
First, priestly, dealing with our sin, and then royal, rising from the, then royal ruling over the whole world.
It's like two manifestations of the same Messiah, almost like a twin-headed snake in a way.
And I think that they came up with this idea because they were dualists.
They believed in light and darkness, good and evil.
So is it Moshiach ben David is the, according to the Jews, is he the good Messiah that's going to really redeem them and bring them redemption?
And Jesus was almost like the anti-Messiah And played the adversary role to the Jews throughout history?
Yeah, and there are Jewish beliefs that would see it in that way.
In other words, the Jesus they know from their traditions is not the Jesus of the New Testament who brought people to God, that they would see him as a false miracle worker.
This is not all Jews, but there are rabbis through history that would look to him as like this as a false Messiah, the ultimate false Messiah.
They would look at him as a counterfeit miracle worker who led Israel astray.
And then they would look at church history and say, look, for 1,500 years, there's been a clear threat of Jew hatred that has led to persecution of Jewish people, expulsion of Jewish people, and then ultimately led straight to the Holocaust.
So that's why if you talk to a traditional Jew, if they're raised in certain circles, the name Jesus is a curse word to them, and he would be the ultimate bad news for the Jewish people.
And they would look at church history through those eyes.
Adam, when I came to faith in 1971, as a heroin shooting, I was still using hippie rock drummers, 16 years old, and no interest in God, no belief in Jesus.
And the Lord radically came in my life and transformed me.
My dad said, okay, Michael, it's great you're off drugs, but we're Jews.
We don't believe this.
So he brought me to meet the local rabbi who immediately befriended me.
And one of the first things he did was gave me a book on anti-Semitism in church history to basically say, this is the one person that couldn't be the Messiah.
Look at what the name of Jesus has done.
And once we were having a debate, and he said, I could get in a ship and sail off in an ocean of Jewish blood that's been shed in Jesus' name through history.
So yes, many would look at Jesus in very, very ugly ways based on their understanding of history.
In our last debate, I was doing a lot of research into Noahide laws.
And if you see what Chabad believes, and it was a Chabad rabbi that you met with back then as a child, too, they want the Gentiles to follow the Noahide laws, and that's what the end times is going to look like.
And you find that so preposterous because in your end times belief, you think the Jews are all going to realize that Jesus was their Messiah all along and that they just didn't recognize it, right?
Yeah, ultimately, yes, I believe there's going to be recognition that what Paul writes of all Israel being saved or Jeremiah writes of that all the families will be the families of all the families of Israel will be his children.
So I do believe that whatever happens at the end of the world, however much shaking there is, however much conflict there is, however much pressure there is, that God will use the prayers of Christians for many, many centuries and the accumulation of that and the witness of Christians at the end of the earth and then people like me, Jewish believers in Jesus, that God will use all this to open the hearts and minds of Jewish people.
So I definitely see it.
By the way, I didn't think we had a debate last time.
I thought we had a friendly discussion, but in any case, it was marketed more as a debate.
Okay, it was a good discussion, much like today.
I'm trying to get, so you believe, and Messianic Jews believe that Jesus has always been the Messiah of the Jews.
He's hidden.
He wasn't recognized, but that they're going to come to him in the end.
I'm trying to get anti-Semitic Christians to realize this, that actually Jesus, they think Jesus hated them and they hate him.
And that's why they love Jesus in a way, is because he's anti-Jewish.
This is the type of stuff that I see.
So I'm trying to help them realize that he all along is actually ultimately benefiting and fulfilling Jewish prophecy.
You agree with that?
Yeah, ultimately here, think of this.
He's coming back to Jerusalem.
So the one that many anti-Semites claim to follow and worship, you know, anti-Semitic Christians claim to follow and worship him.
He was born as king of the Jews in the Gospels, clearly.
He was crucified as king of the Jews, and he's coming back as king of the Jews to be welcomed by his own people.
He makes clear in scripture that he will not come back to Jerusalem until the leaders of Jerusalem, the Jewish leaders, will welcome him back.
So this one that many anti-Semites claim is their Lord is coming back to Jerusalem to set up a kingdom with Israel in the center of it.
So they're going to be in for quite an awakening and shock on that day.
Your friend Joel Richardson, I believe he's your friend, or at least somewhat of a colleague.
I read his book, When a Jew Rules the World.
I did a deep, in-depth review of that one.
As well as the book, The Return of the Kosher Pig by Isaac Shapira, which I know you endorsed in the book at one time, but you guys are almost playing like a reverse Paul role to help fulfill prophecy at the end when they will look upon the one that is pierced and then they will believe.
Do you kind of see yourself like that?
Explain the reverse prophecy.
Do you mean that we're helping it unfold or something else?
I may not have followed you there.
Well, I mean, if the prophecy says that the Jews will recognize Jesus in the end, that's what your goal is, is to help them realize that he actually is the Messiah.
Yeah, absolutely.
And even if I didn't have that promise, just like I've been overseas over 150 times, countries like India 27 times, I want everyone to know about Jesus.
We had a mission school or a ministry school for over 20 years, and we sent graduates out on the mission field around the world.
98% of them, 99% of them, did not go to Israel.
So we want to share the good news with everyone.
So I would do it, sharing the good news with my Jewish people anyway, because this is our Messiah.
This is our Bible.
The whole Bible is written almost exclusively by Jews with only one exception, maybe.
So this is our message about our Messiah that I want them to know.
But I also have a great hope, whenever the end is, whether it's in our lifetimes or 500 years down the line, I have a great hope that there will be a national turning of my people.
It doesn't affect anyone today in a guaranteed level, but hope for the future.
By the way, the kosher pig book is very controversial.
And even in my endorsement, I told people, check it out, examine it, look at the sources, come to conclusions that you do.
Sahih Shapira Yitzhak Shapira has a lot of teaching today I differ with.
So hopefully we're supposed to have a friendly discussion about some of our differences one of these days as well.
But since you mentioned that, I just wanted to fill that in.
Oh, I'd like to see you set that up as soon as possible.
I'd love to see that.
Also, are you familiar with Rabbi Ariel in Israel?
He claims that he was a student under Yitzhak Ginsburg.
I believe I've seen some of his stuff, but tell me a little bit more to make sure I'm thinking of the right person.
I can show you what he looks like, too.
Okay.
There.
Oh, here.
Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay.
So we met just randomly on the streets of Jerusalem some years back.
I was walking to a meeting.
He was walking in the other direction.
But I've seen some of his stuff.
So he is really advocating that Jesus Yeshua is Mashiach ben Yosef, the Messiah son of Joseph.
And he is trying to get the religious Jewish community to embrace him in that way.
It's a very, very interesting approach as a religious Jew, as you can see there.
To me, it's a bridge.
It's another bridge.
It's not the destination, but it's the bridge that can help get you to the destination.
I want to ask you about...
Yes, I don't believe he'll return until every people group on the earth has had an opportunity to hear who he is.
So there are New Testament verses that talk about this gospel of the kingdom must be preached as a witness to the whole world to all nations, and then he'll come.
But when Jesus rebukes the Pharisees, the leaders of the Pharisees in Matthew 23, or the hypocritical leaders among them with seven woes, it's well known anti-Semites would often quote this as an indictment of all Jews.
But then he ends by saying that judgment's coming to Jerusalem, and you will not see me again until you say, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
That was like a code for saying, we welcome you, King Messiah.
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
So he's telling the leaders, you won't see me again until you welcome me.
So I believe at least those two things have to happen.
The gospel has to go to the whole world, and the Jewish people or the leadership must welcome him back as Messiah before he comes and sets his kingdom.
And there are other verses that support that as well.
Like Acts 3, Peter tells the Jewish leadership, repent and turn to God, that your sins may be blotted out.
The ties of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord and that he may send the Messiah.
So Jewish repentance will bring back the Messiah.
What do traditional Jews believe has to happen before Moshiach ben-David comes?
Is it like the destruction of Amalek, the rebuilding of the temple, and the return of the land?
The rebuilding of the temple and the regathering of the exiles would be one of the proofs that someone who claims to be the Messiah or is viewed as the Messiah is really the Messiah.
In other words, if someone is looked to as the Messiah and they do ABC, whoa, that could really be the Messiah.
If they do DEF, it definitely is the Messiah.
So these are some of the things that would be proof.
But in the Talmud, in Jewish tradition, it's taught that the Messiah will come when the world is totally righteous or the world is totally wicked.
So Jewish people are constantly trying to live out their faith, believing that as they honor God and keep his commandments, that that will spread obedience.
So then they want to raise Jewish families to do the same.
Groups like Chabad are reaching out to other Jews, secular Jews.
That's why they would have taken an interest in me as a new believer, and trying to get them to be religious, thinking that if the Jewish people as a whole will live righteously, that can hasten the return of Messiah.
There's even a Jewish tradition that if all Israel would just keep two consecutive Sabbaths, then the Messiah would return.
And then if they could spread a message that others would follow, wonderful.
But the main emphasis is to get Israel living righteously and thereby to welcome Messiah.
The other view is that everything is going to go down, that the world is going to turn away from God, that it will just be chaos, anarchy, darkness.
And out of that, at that time, Messiah will come to rescue the Jewish people and to bring righteousness to the whole world.
There'll be birth pangs of the Moshiach with plagues and wars and all types of chaos.
And the destruction of Amalek.
If the Jewish people do not sufficiently repent and the nation is not living righteously, then the really bad stuff will happen.
For example, in the 10th century, Rabbi Saadra Gaon said that if we repent, then we won't see Mashiach ben Yosef.
We won't see the other Messiah.
We won't have as great a time of suffering.
We'll just see Mashiach ben David.
But if we don't sufficiently repent as a nation and live godly lives, then we'll go through all this terrible suffering first.
Totally off topic now, but I wanted to ask this earlier.
Is it 1 Thessalonians 2 or 2 Thessalonians, the one where Paul supposedly says that the Jews killed Jesus, right?
Do you think that's an interpolation or mistranslated?
I do not believe it's an interpolation.
So 1 Thessalonians 2 and really verses 14 through 16 are the key verses.
Some scholars have argued that it's so contrary to what Paul wrote elsewhere that it couldn't be his words, but there's no textual evidence of that.
I don't believe it's an interpolation, but there's a mistranslation in it or misunderstanding in it.
Best understood as Paul saying, look, to the Thessalonians, you're suffering at the hands of your countrymen.
They're persecuting you.
We're having the same problem in Judea.
And there are these people in Judea, they're banapples.
The ones that crucified the Messiah, the ones that are rejecting the prophetic word.
He says, They're persecuting us also.
So he's not talking about all Jews through history.
It even depends on where you put a comma.
Remember, the Greek word for Jew is also the Greek word for Judean.
And he says, you know, the congregations in Judea, they're suffering the same thing that you are.
And the Judeans there, the same ones that were responsible for killing Jesus, they're killing prophets today.
They're persecuting us.
So he's talking about these bad apples that have been in Jerusalem and Judea.
And they hated Jesus when he came.
They're hating his followers.
They're hating on us also.
And you're suffering the same thing, as opposed to saying the Jews killed Jesus, and the Jews persecute the prophets.
And the Jews are persecuting us.
That's the misreading of it.
So it's not an interpolation.
There's no evidence that Paul did not write it.
I believe those are the words of Paul, but they are misinterpreted, taken out of context by people like E. Michael Jones.
And they've been used to bring harm to the Jewish people through the centuries.
Who, in your opinion, is Edom, or what is Edom?
So first in scripture, Esau and Edom, the same.
So this is one of the twin sons born to Isaac and Rebekah.
So you have Jacob and Esau.
And then historically, this just becomes the Edomite people.
So these would be one of the peoples today, you know, just descended from them living in the Middle East and living on the east side of the Jordan.
But then in rabbinic literature, Edom becomes a code word for the bad guys.
So Edom can be Rome.
When the Jews are under Roman domination, Edom is Rome.
Or Edom can represent Christendom when Christianity is persecuting the Jewish people.
So I have no opinion.
I don't read it like that.
In other words, to me, Edom is Edom.
Edom is an ancient people that exists as some people group today in the Middle East.
Or they've been absorbed among others.
So I don't see that there is a power called Edom.
But to a Talmudic Jew, Edom would represent the bad, hostile power of the day, the dominant destructive power.
And as I said, in centuries past, it could be Rome.
It could be associated with Christendom.
But it's not my view.
So I don't see Edom as anything other than the descendants of Esau.
But like you said, many, many Jews do believe that Edom is Christianity or Chabad's website says that it's just the West in general.
And they believe that in the end times, it is to be destroyed by the Moshiach.
Yitzhak Ginsburg shares that view actually, too.
He calls Edom the Vatican, and he says the Vatican will be destroyed by Jesus when he returns.
Yeah, so there are religious Jews for sure.
And Yischa Ginsburg has some very radical views that have been rejected by many, many other religious Jews, as you know, as you study about them.
But in any case, the New Testament says this, all right?
So let's not talk Judaism for a minute, traditional Judaism.
The New Testament says that when Jesus returns, 2 Thessalonians 1, he'll come in blazing fire, taking vengeance on those who don't know God and who don't obey the gospel of Jesus.
So it's understood that there will be wicked people all around the world, and God will destroy them when he returns, and that there will be righteous among the people of Israel and righteous in the nations.
There will be hundreds of millions of God-fearing Jesus followers in the nations who are waiting for his return.
They won't be destroyed.
The wicked will be destroyed.
There'll be a final separation.
So Judaism believes that as well.
Judaism believes that there'll be righteous in all the nations.
And Judaism teaches that the righteous of all nations will come, but the world system, a sinful, immoral West, yeah, there'll be much destruction.
You know, whatever forces destructive communism and things like that, that many will be destroyed.
So there is a concept in Judaism and Christianity that the coming of the Messiah will bring blessing to the godly, both Jewish and Gentile, around the world, but will bring destruction on the wicked.
It just gets fleshed out differently with the different beliefs.
I see.
Moshiach ben Joseph, it's called Moshiach ben Joseph, and they say that it's likened to the Joseph of the Genesis story.
So do you agree with that?
That it's a lot of use for something in the Old Testament.
It's like not foreshadowing, but what's the word you use?
A type, typology, foreshadowing.
There's another word.
You know, the same redemptive analogy is for something outside of scripture.
So I'm not sure.
When there's stories in the Torah, like we both agree that the New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament, the Tanakh, right?
And you say when there's a story in the Old Testament and then it materializes in the New Testament, you say that it was a foreshadowing, some kind of, it's a word like foreshadowing.
I should remember it.
But it's not a matter of time.
I mean, I would say a foreshadowing or a type.
As soon as we're done with the show, we'll probably both remember it at that point.
Right.
So just bear in mind that the concept of Moshiach ben Yosef only occurs once in the Talmud in the Tractate Sukkot.
You don't find it spoken of before that explicitly.
You have the concept of two Messiahs, but that's from the line of Aaron.
So that's not Joseph and the line of David.
So the two Messiahs in earlier Jewish teaching, like in the Dead Sea Scrolls before the time of Jesus, that's different from the two Messiahs, Messiah, son of David, and Messiah, son of Joseph.
There may be parallels, but ultimately differences.
So for me, as a Messianic Jew, yeah, I see.
So with Joseph, he's rejected by his brothers.
He becomes the savior of the land of Egypt.
His brothers come see him, but they don't recognize him because he's disguised.
He looks like an Egyptian leader.
And it's only the second time around when they see him that they recognize who he is.
So that's like a foreshadowing to me of what happens with Yeshua, that he's rejected by his own brothers, becomes the savior of the Gentile world.
His own family doesn't recognize him because he looks like a Gentile.
But then the second time around, he reveals himself as to who he really is.
Is Joseph the Savior of Egypt, though?
Or does he just rise to be the power behind the throne?
And then basically, they all, he dominates them all because he has all the grain and then takes the livestock.
And then his Jewish brothers come and his family comes and he benefits them greatly, right?
Did he really save you?
Right.
Yes and no.
On the one hand, obviously, this is not an exact parallel.
He doesn't die for the sins of the world.
He doesn't rise from the dead.
Well, he does go into a pit, though, they say.
He does suffer and he's falsely accused and all of that for sure.
But on the one hand, yes, he does save Egypt because without his wise counsel, many, many would have died of famine and the nation would have been broken.
But when I say savior of the Egyptian world, I'm saying it broadly to emphasize the parallel.
So yeah, you can correct that specific.
But without him, large numbers of people would have died of famine.
So there's that story.
There's all these verses about that the Messiah, they would not recognize him.
They'd be blinded, that he would be rejected.
You see, this is where we differ.
I agree that the New Testament has a story that fulfills prophecies of the Old Testament, but I think that it's a fictional construct, whereas you believed it all happened.
I just want to ask you pretty simple.
What do you think is more likely that they studied the Old Testament?
They were kind of like Kabbalahs.
They were writing fan fictions.
They were looking for mysteries and decoding the hidden secrets of the Torah and came up with a new Midrash or Pesher, or that all of these things really happened.
The latter, without question.
Let me tell you why.
Three quick reasons.
But I love the way you ask the question there.
Obviously, you're in the former camp, and I'm emphatically in the latter.
And for all of those that are screaming at us for me being on his channel or for Adam having me, look, we have to sit and talk.
Why wouldn't we talk with these profound differences?
And, you know, it can only help and people are going to get exposed to different things.
Okay, so number one, these were fishermen, tax collectors.
There's no evidence anywhere in church history or even in the writings of those that were opposing that these were people who were steeped in all types of mystical study and looking for some secret revelation.
That's the first thing.
Paul was.
Well, not necessarily.
He came before the Gospels.
Do you agree with that, that Paul came before the Gospels?
Well, Paul comes to faith before the Gospels are written, and his letters are written before the Gospels are written, but the oral traditions were being passed on from day one.
So the story of the Gospels predates Paul.
The writing of the Gospels postdates Paul.
But as far as the first disciples, the apostles, so outside of Paul, these were just regular people, and they were doing anything but looking for these mysteries.
The second thing is that this was so contrary to all expectation that the idea that the Messiah would die a criminal's death.
And remember, right up until the last minute, his disciples don't get it.
Even when he dies, they think it's over.
They can't fathom he's going to rise from the dead.
And even to write the literature about them, to make them look so spiritually blind.
That's not what you do about your leaders and heroes.
But the biggest thing to me is you can't just make this happen.
You can't take a Jew who never left his homeland, basically, who dies a criminal's death and make him the most famous name on the planet, worshipped and revered by over 2 billion people, and so many of the prophecies working themselves out.
So to me, it's a trillion billion to one against it just happening because they came up with this, as opposed to it really happened.
And then lastly, I've experienced him in my own life in life-transforming ways.
It's not to prove that to an atheist or to say to you, Adam, you have to believe because I'm telling you it happened to me.
But in my own life, and then knowing people all around the world who were dramatically, radically transformed by encountering him, I am over that it's all real.
Well, I would disagree, but I don't want to, I have only another 20 minutes with you, but I would just very quickly say that the gospel were written decades after the supposed crucifixion.
Paul was first and he never met Jesus.
And he kind of, I would like to see a debate with you and Dr. Richard Carrier on this.
That's what I would suggest, just for time's sake.
I want to say.
So could you agree that there are many beliefs in Judaism that are supremacist and genocidal with their belief that like Edom and Esau will be destroyed?
Nothing genocidal.
Absolutely nothing genocidal.
No, absolutely not.
There is the belief in the destruction of the wicked, but as I said, the New Testament teaches that as well, that the wicked will be destroyed.
Wicked Jews will be destroyed as well.
Well, that's what the Christians believe also.
Well, the wicked, whoever they are, Jew, Gentile, whatever race, ethnicity, the wicked that will not repent will be destroyed.
That's a common belief, but nothing genocidal.
A supremacist, possibly.
In other words, the belief that God uniquely chose Israel to be a light to the world.
The scriptures explicitly say in the prayer book makes clear that it's not because of anything good in us.
It's exclusively because of the mercy of God.
But if you do have a belief that you are uniquely chosen by God and given revelation that others aren't given, it is possible that there can be supremacist mentality and spiritual arrogance.
Certainly, there are Jews who have that.
But if you'll talk to your average rabbi, and I think you've dialogued with some, I believe they would tell you it's not because of our goodness or superiority.
It's simply because of the mercy of God.
Well, they say that, but I don't believe it.
I want to ask you about some things that Paul said.
He said that Jesus is the root of Jesse, and that he would reign in the midst of thine enemies, and he will reign over the Gentiles.
I'm paraphrasing, but that's what it says, right?
Reign over the Gentiles.
Go ahead.
Go ahead.
I'm sorry.
I see that as what the whole plan is.
There's a prophecy, there's A blueprint.
The goal is all the nations are going to, all the flesh of the world is going to worship the God of Israel.
And Christianity fulfilled that.
So they could never, the Jews were always occupied.
They were losing battles.
They never had a chance to win militarily.
So they came up with a weaponized propaganda campaign to target the minds of the Greco-Woman world with Christianity to get them to believe in their Messiah, their, well, their rejected Messiah and their God as almost like a deception.
And this is what I'm trying to reach Gentiles about and other Jews also.
If Jesus was always the hidden Messiah and he's always ultimately working on behalf to benefit the Jews, even through persecution and punishment, I want them to realize that he's not the answer.
It's almost like these Christians are believing in QAnon, that Christianity is the ancient QAnon.
They're trusting the plan that Jesus is going to float down from the clouds and save them from the Jews, is what they believe.
Yeah, I mean, it's so interesting as you unfold that, I'm thinking, wow, this is the modern QAnon.
This is Adam's QAnon and conspiracy theory that's completely out of the blue.
I mean, the problems with what you're saying are legion, but we have all the historical records of the Jewish leadership rejecting Jesus.
We have it reinforced in the Talmud.
You read through every stitch of Jewish literature, Talmud, commentaries, and law codes and things like that.
And it's clear this is a religion and a faith outside of Jesus, apart from Jesus, not believing in him, parts of it actually based on rejecting him, and the vast majority of it just based on ignoring him and going on with laws and commandments and traditions.
And then you said it's been to the benefit of Jews.
Obviously, Jews around the world would differ with that, talking about how they've suffered at the hands of professing Christians.
So the only thing I would say is that God in his goodness used the Jewish Messiah to bless the whole world.
And because people had to understand who the Messiah was and what the scriptures taught, he came to the Jewish people.
When the nation rejected him, the Jews who believed then went with this good news to the nations.
But, you know, it's so interesting, Adam, that you ever seen one of those things where you look at a picture and you say, what do you see?
I see an old man.
Keep looking.
What do you see?
I see an old man.
Keep looking.
I see a beautiful woman.
Same picture.
So it's so striking to me that we could look at the same evidence.
And I know you said it.
I know you've done your homework.
If I just thought you were some raving anti-Semite foaming at the mouth, I wouldn't sit and talk with you.
So it's so interesting to me that we look at the same text and come to these complete polar opposite positions, whereas what I'm saying sounds utterly foolish to you, and what you're saying sounds utterly foolish to me.
And I imagine to a lot of your followers, I sound utterly foolish to them.
It's just, it's really interesting.
That's that's why, hey, everyone that's watching that believes like me, pray for Adam.
I believe he's sincere.
Pray for Adam that God would open his heart to truth.
Hey, you can't argue with that.
We're praying that God would open your heart to ultimate truth.
That's what I want as well.
I'm praying the same for you as well.
And actually, we're looking at a lot of the same facts and we're agreeing on a lot of the same facts and evidence and just coming to different conclusions about what it means.
Yeah, in many ways, in many ways, we are.
But look, you're not, when you sent me texts to look at, you are looking at things that exist.
In other words, I may think you're coming to exaggerated conclusions or taking a fringe and making it the majority, but you're not making up things that don't exist in terms of actual text.
You're looking at these texts and I believe coming to many totally wrong conclusions.
But like I said to you the first time, I understand why you see things the way you do.
That's what I think.
Yes, absolutely.
I just don't think it's real.
I think it's a myth.
That's the only difference.
Well, your idea, though, that it was a Jewish plan or some way for Jewish domination, that's a fundamental difference as well.
Not necessarily an overarching monolithic conspiracy, but the way Paul read the Old Testament, and I did a video, the Christian hoax exposed where I go into this.
Paul read the Old Testament.
He knew the oral law.
And so he knew what the Messiah was meant to do.
He basically believed in a suffering Messiah.
And, you know, you said something earlier, like I said that Christianity ultimately benefits Jews.
I completely agree with you.
There's no debating that many Jews throughout history have suffered because of Christianity.
But there's beliefs in Judaism of punishment and atonement and a common theme of killing the prophets and them being punished by God for it.
So I see Christianity and even the persecution as part of fulfilling the prophecy.
And Jews believe it as well.
It kept them from assimilating.
It kept them fearful and believing that they're chosen.
It kept them, it gave them a chip on their shoulder to have vengeance on the Gentiles at some point.
And it fulfilled their suffering and their redemption, culminating in the Holocaust, so that they could have their grand prophecy fulfillment return to the Holy Land.
You would agree that you think the Holocaust is fulfillment of prophecy?
It's beyond that in terms of human wickedness, that there's nothing in me that thinks that 3 million of the 3.3 million Polish Jews were killed because they were especially wicked where God was bringing judgment.
There's much of the Holocaust I can't claim to understand, but I don't believe it happened with God just sitting by twiddling his fingers.
Let me just say that.
And the rabbis agree with you, just to clarify.
The rabbis thinks that it fulfilled prophecy as well.
Yeah, but again, in terms of is it the prophecy of Jewish people being hated, persecuted around the world and the attempt of mad Gentiles, you know, with Hitler wanting to wipe him out.
And then again, you say, where were the true Christians?
Well, the true Christians were the ones that were willing to risk their lives to protect Jews and others from the hatred and the persecution.
And the false Christians were the ones that were joining in with it.
To this day, any Christian who claims to be, anyone who claims to be a Christian and is an anti-Semite and wishes evil things on the Jews, they disqualify themselves from being any possible kind of a Christian.
But, you know, the thing that, if you don't mind, Adam, I know you want to ask me questions, but just one last question from me to you is within our timeframe here.
Why is it, because I know you pretty much, based on our dialogue on the air and some private emails and private talking by phone, that's pretty much as much as I know you, maybe a bit here and there.
If you're not watching my videos, I'm offended.
You need to watch.
I'll send you a playlist.
All right.
All right.
You can send me the highlight.
But why is it that you are a target now, as you told me before the show started of ADL and others?
Why are you viewed as an anti-Semite?
Because I'm critical of Zionism.
That's all it takes to be an anti-Semite these days.
And I'm not an anti-Semite.
Semite means that you hate all racial Jewish people, and I don't do that at all.
Many Jews, the ADL tried to say that I conflate Zionists and Jews, which I always explicitly do the exact opposite because some Jews are anti-Zionist and many Zionists are Christians.
They're not even Jewish at all.
So that's all it takes.
And I was on the list with everybody else.
It was Brother Nathaniel.
Are you familiar with Brother Nathaniel?
We talked by phone once.
Otherwise, my only relationship to him was to criticize one of his videos.
You know, I watched his video the other day, and what I notice he does, and I'm almost suspicious of it.
He's always trying to provoke and agitate Christians and get them mad that the Jews killed Jesus.
And I see this as such a, number one, false, but a red herring to discredit us and undermine legitimate opposition to Zionism.
This idea that Gentiles are supposed to be angry and get our panties in a bunch that the Jews killed their Messiah that was meant to subjugate and conquer the Gentiles.
I just find it ridiculous.
And the fact that so many people are angry about this, and this is their main thing, I just find it all ridiculous.
Got it.
Well, I'm with you and finding it ridiculous.
We have another point in common there.
Okay.
Well, I guess we're about out of time now.
You know what, Dr. Brown?
I'd like to do this again sometime.
Hopefully, we won't have to wait another two years to do it.
But I appreciate you coming on.
Let me say this.
And again, maybe if you send me your playlist and I watch more, I'll be more surprised or shocked at the content.
I think you'll just be persuaded.
I'll come off if you watch.
Well, keep watching my stuff.
At least you got a light.
I'm using you for material.
Your same material using to convince the Jews that Jesus is their Messiah, I'm using to convince anti-Semitic Christians that he is their Messiah and that he's not for you.
He's working for them.
But yeah.
Got it.
Well, let me just say this.
In all the decades of working on the research and putting the books and materials together and doing the debates, it never once crossed my mind that one day Adam Green would be using the material for this purpose.
But, hey, I'm glad to have the dialogue with you.
And the anti-Jews.
I might say that I'm doing the work of the Jews and I'm working for the Jews because I'm telling them that Jesus is really working for them.
He's a double agent.
Like that's what I've seen many Messianic Jews say.
He's the hidden Messiah.
He's a double agent.
He's really working for them is what Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira says.
Yeah, so his views would be somewhat unique even among Messianic Jews.
But yeah, listen, not that I'm some famous big shot, but you are, though.
I want the chat to know you are quite the big shot.
Well, the deal is that we do get tons of requests to come on the air, and most of them we have to decline.
So it's not that I'm so important, but the fact that I agreed to come on with you means that I'm happy to have these dialogues.
And keep watching my stuff, man.
Everybody, pray for Adam Green.
Yes, everybody.
And pray for Dr. Brown as well.
He could be quite the evangelist to get people to stop believing all these myths.
I see your character arc going that way.
That's the way I describe it.
Jesus is going to, there's going to be a plot twist in the Jesus story, and the Jews are going to realize that he was really benefiting them all along.
He really was their guy all along.
That's the way I see it.
Well, keep seeking, man.
At least you're reading the right stuff in terms of our materials here.
Agree to be with you.
And I will cross-post this so others can hear our conversation.
Yeah, the last time you cross-posted our debate, you got a strike, probably one of the only strikes you've ever gotten.
And my YouTube channel was deleted shortly after.
Well, trust me, I had nothing to do with that.
In fact, you know, as much as I differ with E. Michael Jones, in my view, it wasn't a formal debate.
It was, you know, just strong differences on our show.
But I formed others that I've gone after as anti-Semites.
I don't want it to be de-platformed.
I want it to have let their voice be heard.
Let others differ with it.
But anyway, I'm going to run, man.
Great being with you.
And thanks for letting me talk to your audience.
All right.
Thank you, Dr. Brown, for the time.
All right.
All right.
Take care.
Okay.
There he goes.
He only had an hour for me.
And he wasn't joking, guys.
He is in high demand, a busy guy writing lots of books.
His daily radio show probably gets all types of requests.
And I'm probably one of the last people that he really wants to talk to.
So I do appreciate him coming on and being able to just discuss some of these things.
Let's see.
We'll read the super chats and we'll close it out here.
I'm actually not feeling well.
I woke up with a cold today.
Just pray in prayer, guys.
A magical beam will go from your head and make something happen, says instinct.
Odd CV says, is Brown a Shabbos goy?
No, he is Jewish, but he believes in Jesus.
Daly Green says, I haven't found a Christian yet that can disagree with any of the tenets of Stoicism, aside from not believing in Jesus.
How do you disagree with this philosophy that predates Jesus by 300 years?
Have you heard what Epikitis said about Jews playing both sides?
No, I haven't.
Daly Green says, Zio Free says, Adam, what Michael Brown thinks of Rabbi David Wise?
That group that supports Palestinians and Israel shouldn't exist.
That would have been a good question.
Does Michael Brown see any particular group of Jews, sects, that are dangerous because of their large Jewish elites following and those elites having money, political power, chaos creators, political deceivers working only for Israel?
That would have been a good question too.
But I bet he would have disagreed with the normal type of kind of Jewish power apologetics.
Dan Bigfoot says, what does Dr. Brown think of the John Hagee supporters who would rather self-fund, self-fulfilled Bible prophecy than helping their relatives?
Well, he would probably believe, Dan Bigfoot, that if you bless the Jews, you are blessed.
So they are helping themselves by giving to the Jews.
That would be my guess.
I don't want to speak for them, but that would be my guess.
Sorry, I didn't have time for the questions.
Only having an hour to myself.
I had a, you know, notice I didn't play one clip, barely showed any articles.
I wanted to, but this was just had to be a podcast-like discussion.
And Zio Free says, Adam, ask him what he thinks of Ms Rachi Reuben Anava agrees with them on what will happen to the goys.
I kind of did ask that question, and he says that he doesn't agree with them.
And he'll argue that they're condemned by other rabbis and that there's different points of view, but that doesn't change the fact that they are out there and that they are basically interpreting what the books, the scriptures say, you know, in a realistic way.
And that is all we have for today.
Let me know what you guys think in the comments.
Please be respectful and remember, I wanted to prepare a little bit more today, but I was sleeping, woke up with a cold, and we only had an hour.
But let me know what you guys think, your thoughts.
Look forward to hearing all of your response.
No morenews.org to find all the links.
Thanks, everybody, for the support.
And I will see you guys.
E. Michael Brown, Michael Brown, E. Michael Jones debate next week.
And I set up for the end of the month.
I have a Christian who believes that Trump is going to play the role of the Antichrist.
He's been putting together these really fascinating threads on Twitter.
He's going to be on to share his thoughts about all of that.
So you guys can look forward to that as well.
And I'll be back with some more news streams, of course.
So thank you all, and I will see you guys all again very soon.
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