Know More News - Adam Green - Noahide Laws Debate | Dr. Michael Brown vs. Adam Green

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Oct. 18, 2019 - Know More News - Adam Green

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Noahide Laws Debate | Dr. Michael Brown vs. Adam Green

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	Welcome, ladies and gentlemen.
	Adam Green here with Nomore News.org.
	It's October 23rd, 2019.
	And joining me today to discuss Adam Green here.
	Joining me today to discuss Noahide Laws, Zionism, and much more.
	My guest, one of the world's most famous Messianic Jews, uh Dr. Michael L. Brown.
	He is a Jewish believer in Jesus, author of 37 books.
	He's a syndicated nationally radio host.
	His show, The Line of Fire.
	He's on YouTube at Ask Dr. Brown.
	He's an activist, professor at many seminary schools, preacher, husband.
	And he's joining me today to discuss Noahide Laws and much more.
	Thank you so much for coming, Dr. Michael Brown.
	And Adam, I really appreciate you having me on.
	Thanks so much.
	Thank you for being here.
	So a little background information for everybody on uh how we got here.
	And uh on my channel and some of the other channels I follow on YouTube, we're talking about Noahide Laws.
	We all see it as a concern to Christians and to the whole world.
	And um a while back I first saw a video where you said it was there's more truth to Santa Claus than to Noahide laws.
	You remember that?
	Oh, yeah, yeah, that that Jews will be beheading Christians over Noahide laws.
	If someone had called in and asked me the question, which was uh quite a surprise to me, I wasn't aware of what you were putting out, or Stephen Ben Noon or others, uh, so I answered the question candidly, and then I got quite a lot of pushback.
	That's when I discovered uh you and some of the other folks that have a good internet following.
	Uh yeah, so uh I was quite surprised to hear some of this.
	Obviously, it's very serious to you and you and your viewers and followers, so we'll do our best to be as candid as possible on this.
	Absolutely.
	And um since then, you know, I I heard that because I was doing so much research and I just saw Noahide laws are you know everywhere.
	It's it's documented extensively, and then I heard I kind of jumped on you a bit because I heard you know, it's like Santa Claus, and I was like, oh, well that's that's incredible.
	But since then you've done a few more videos, and I've heard you're more uh um expanded on explanation.
	So we'll get into some of our our differences with Noahide laws and and your show is Ask Dr. Brown, so I've got a bunch of questions and notes here to uh that we could get into some stuff.
	Uh first I wanted to ask how familiar familiar are you with uh my work.
	Have you seen any of my videos on Noahide Laws?
	Uh I've I've seen some of your videos, uh, but I'm not uh intimately familiar.
	I've I've been reading more knowing that we're gonna be on and looking at some different links that you've you've put up.
	Um I've I've followed some of your tweets and the links from there, but uh I'm not intimately familiar.
	I want to be totally fair in saying that.
	So I know you put a lot of time and effort and energy and take this very seriously, but just to press the schedule, I haven't been able to listen to as much as I want.
	So I'm I'm somewhat familiar, but feel free to if there's something I'm saying and I'm I'm it shows lack of familiarity with your permission, just interrupt me and fill me in, okay?
	Okay, sure.
	And uh, you know, I gotta say I admired this.
	Uh on your website, uh askdrbrown.org, there's a link, and I thought this was awesome.
	I admire this.
	Uh reveals the real messiah.
	You have down here a forum to schedule debate.
	So I like the spirit of debate so we could talk about this stuff.
	It's definitely going to be valuable for everybody.
	And um I'm happy to finally get you on.
	Yeah, and let me just say this.
	I'm a follower of Jesus, which means since I came to faith in late 1971, I've been in opposition to the Jewish community.
	I've met with scores of rabbis.
	I have a five-volume series on answering Jewish objections to Jesus, a whole volume explaining why I'm not a Talmudic Jew.
	I've been called by religious Jews public enemy number one because of the effect of our of our missions work to reach Jewish people.
	I believe Jewish people without Jesus are as lost as anyone else.
	So I just want that to be to be clear that if we have differences on things, there may be a lot of areas where we have in common, but if we have some differences, I I'm I'm not coming as a as my goal is to defend Judaism or defend the Jewish community.
	I'm in constant conflict with especially the religious Jewish community and Chabad in particular, uh, because of my views and because of contrasting their views of the Rebbe as Messiah with us preaching Jesus as Messiah.
	So in terms of my loyalties, my loyalties are with Jesus and with the entire scripture, the entire Bible.
	And if I think something is wrong or erroneous, then I'll address that honestly.
	But that's where my loyalties lie.
	And I think your viewers should know that.
	Yeah, I wanted to start with mentioning that as well.
	I have some uh some empathy for you for how you're kind of stuck in the middle.
	You know, you're considered in an idolatry to a lot of your Jewish friends, and then a lot of the Christians, you know, see you as uh an outsider, a Jew, you know, stuff like that.
	So do you think that gives you any um bias at all to be more pro-Zionist, pro-Israel, the fact that you are Jewish and believe in Jesus?
	It's possible.
	Uh there was a time when I really rejected any Zionist position, you know, as as a follower of Jesus.
	Um that as I was looking at a lot of church writings and things, I really questioned a lot of stuff.
	For me, I believe God brought the Jewish people back to the land of fulfillment of prophecy, but I believe that Jews are accountable like anybody else.
	If they do right, good, if they do wrong, we address it.
	But it's possible.
	I I would also say that I've been sensitive to so-called Christian anti-Semitism.
	I say so-called in that uh, you know, there are Nazis that call themselves Christians and things like that.
	There were uh Polish Catholics that slaughtered Jews and call themselves Christians.
	Because of that, many many Jews have a wrong understanding of who Jesus is.
	So I've been sensitive to that, but it's it's possible.
	There are biases.
	On the other hand, as a as someone that's grown up in the Jewish world, uh I'm very familiar with our issues.
	And when I've had conflict with the religious Jewish world, I've I've had some real conflict, and I've been really hated.
	And, you know, there have been people that I know that have been religious Jews that have come to faith that suffered a lot of abuse.
	So I've seen the good and the bad.
	But maybe there is some bias, it's possible.
	I I watched, I was watching some of your debates.
	I one of them with a rabbi about if Jesus is the Messiah.
	He uh he uh yeah, I can definitely see how you guys are at odds.
	But you know, I wanted to say also that even on Noahide laws, which we're going to start debating right now, um, we actually do have a good bit of common ground and agree on a lot of the facts.
	We just kind of have a different conclusion.
	So why don't we start for people, if there's anybody out there, I I've covered it a lot, you've been doing videos on it, but could you just briefly explain what are the Noahide laws and that we can get into them?
	Yeah.
	So according to rabbinic Judaism, God gave six laws to Adam and then supplemented them to Noah, so they're called the seven Noahide laws, based on texts in Genesis 2 and Genesis 9.
	To derive these laws from those texts, you have to read some things in, which the rabbis do.
	But the viewpoint is this that God gave Israel the Torah with special responsibility.
	So they have 613 commandments, but that the righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come.
	And if people will simply abide by these seven so-called laws of Noah, then they'll be considered righteous.
	So they're there the prohibition of idolatry, blasphemy, adultery, theft, murder, uh, eating the flesh of a living animal, and then the call to establish courts of justice.
	So this is this is in theory that that if if a Gentile lives by these laws, then that Gentile will be considered righteous in God's sight.
	But for a Jew, they're required to keep the 613 commandments of the Torah.
	That would be in a nutshell what the seven Noahide laws are.
	And so some of the places where we agree, you I've heard you say that they're not the Noahide laws aren't biblical, but they're Talmudic and the interpretations derived by the rabbis, correct?
	Yes.
	In other words, even if we agreed in theory that the laws were good, obviously there's going to be discussion of what idolatry means.
	But even if we agree that these seven things are good, to derive them all from Genesis 2 and Genesis 9, that's done by rabbinic interpretation.
	It's not a straightforward reading of the text.
	And in fact, the rabbis want you to know that they're deriving it by rabbinic interpretation.
	Yeah.
	And um, and we also agree That uh there is there is a camp that believes that Christianity and Jesus and Trinitarians are uh idol worship.
	Yes, but to this day, there are sectors of Judaism that believe that Christianity, because of its Trinity worship, is idolatrous.
	The majority view in the Jewish world is that it's not idolatrous, but there remain uh sectors of Judaism and historically uh key Jewish leaders that said that it is idolatrous, they would all agree it's idolatrous for me.
	They would say, for me as a Jew, I'm an idol worshiper following Jesus.
	Uh there's a different disagreement in Judaism.
	The predominant view for some centuries has been that Christianity is not idolatry, but to this day, there are religious Jews that believe according to the Noahide laws, Christianity is idolatry.
	Absolutely.
	To this day, and also in the Talmud and uh one of the most respected and famous uh rabbis, Maimonides.
	So, correct.
	Within the Talmud, of course, the the question was the category of idolatry called Avadasera was mainly just outright idol worship that the nations would do.
	Like if you go to India and Hinduism and there's there's worship of statutes and things like that, then over a period of time there was a discussion where Christianity fit.
	Uh but Maimonides are exactly right uh in the 12th century in his Miss Nathory's code of Jewish law, which carries great authority to this day, did cut classify Christianity as idolatry.
	As I said, the the dominant view over the recent centuries has been it's not, but absolutely.
	Uh you could cite Talmudic texts and you could cite Maimonides that Christian worship of the Trinity is idolatrous for Gentiles.
	Yep.
	And then, and then the last point we agree on is that it is written, and uh at least the Orthodox used to believe that in the Messianic era the punishment for those who don't uphold the seven Noahide laws is decapitation.
	Yes, that uh the theory would be that in the Messianic era, when peace is established on the earth and the whole world is worshiping God, that the Torah laws will be carried out with death penalty and the Noahide laws would be.
	So in other words, if if a Jew did not observe the Sabbath, the Jew would be put to death.
	If if a Gentile committed adultery, the or a Jew committed adultery, they would be put to death.
	So there would be the enforcement of the law for Jew and Gentile uh with the death penalty and uh the the most the most it doesn't always mention decapitation, but yes, uh in that that's a large understanding.
	And there's certainly religious Jews to this day that expect in the Messianic era that's going to be the case.
	No question about that.
	Right.
	Okay, so um but before I start uh give you the floor and let you explain why um why Christians I I asked you on Twitter, are you concerned at all by the Noahide laws, or should Christian is a is it a threat to Christians?
	And you said no.
	So why don't you uh explain?
	Because if they're they're Talmudic and the Talmud is is anti-Gentile, anti-Jesus, isn't it inherently a threat?
	This this doesn't Noahide laws don't go in line with the Christian uh theology.
	So it's I don't see you don't support Noahide laws.
	That's another point I like to make.
	You you're No, I support preaching Jesus to the nations.
	I don't support encouraging Gentiles to observe the Noahide laws.
	I encourage preaching Jesus, repentance and faith in him to all people.
	That's what I support and advocate.
	So you reject the Talmud and you reject the Noahide laws.
	And you that's what you advise other Christians to do.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Well, of course we reject Talmudic authority.
	There may be some nice teachings and insights and things, but of course we reject Talmudic authority, we reject the Talmudic rejection of Jesus wholeheartedly, categorically, we reject the authority of the rabbis to dictate how scripture should be interpreted categorically, wholeheartedly.
	As for rejected the Noahide laws, I I agree with all of them.
	In other words, that we shouldn't worship idols, that we shouldn't blaspheme.
	In other words, all those I find to be right, but the idea that God gave these laws, or the idea that this is what God requires for the nations, I completely reject that.
	Absolutely.
	Okay, but you support you so you support the idea of No idol worshipper, but what if, say, there's some Hindu Americans, you know, in their hearing Noahide laws are in Congress signed by by George Bush, and I got a video of a Chabad rabbi the other day in Congress trying to say, you know, the Noah Hide laws.
	Do you see how they could be offended or Christians could be worried that they might be considered idol worshippers?
	I mean, you agree that the punishment is decapitation, so it's not like we're making up conspiracies here or anything.
	Oh, yeah.
	So let me just throw out, like right up front why I have differences with you, and then we can flesh this out.
	Sure.
	Because I I really appreciate you opening the floor to me, but I I don't want to dominate the the conversation.
	I'll never let you dominate it.
	Oh, okay.
	All right.
	So for the sake of your viewers then who are not familiar with with why I'm not concerned.
	All right, the first thing is we have the very real threat of Islam, which is decapitating people.
	We we have the oppression, say, going on in communist China.
	You know, we have we have grads from our ministry school serving in a lot of these dangerous parts of the world.
	One of our grads was was killed by al-Qaeda terrorists years ago in a dangerous Muslim country.
	So, you know, we have this present threat right now of these very real things that are happening that I think we should focus on.
	That's number one.
	Uh number two, the the Jews that are advocating that America recognize the Noahide laws and things like that, they are doing it, embracing Christianity as a Noahide faith.
	For example, Rabbi Shimon Cohen uh Cohen, who is, or Cowan in Australia, who's a leading Chabad rabbi and maybe the best known advocate of this worldwide, in his view, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are all Noahide monotheistic faiths.
	So the ones that are pushing this are saying that Christianity is not idolatrous, and the ones that are getting Congress to sign uh, you know, I was just looking at a legal uh statement by Baba Cherevi, the leader of Chabad that died in 1994, that that uh Christianity for Gentiles is acceptable, it's not considered idol worship.
	So from their perspective, the ones who are pushing it, they're not viewing us as idolaters.
	That's the second thing.
	The third thing is well, before we just go third, can I can I address that one?
	Please.
	Okay.
	Well, just because they're saying now it's okay, who's to say that in the Messianic era when Moshiach is here and he's the judge, do you think that they're really gonna allow Christians to still continue worshiping Jesus?
	I think that's a bit uh naive to think that.
	And of course, of course, they're gonna say now, oh, yeah, the temple's just for peace and Noahide laws, you're already Noahides, don't worry, but things can change and extremists tend to take over sometimes.
	So don't you think it's important to nip it in the bud before Noahide laws could become out of hand?
	Got it.
	Okay, so I I think here's the the big rub, which was going to get me to the number three.
	So this is perfect timing to jump in.
	And and I'd love to hear your thinking on this.
	I don't see a scenario where in this age, Jews are gonna have world dominion, world control, it's the Muslim world, that communist China, that Russia, that they will all submit to Jewish rule, and then based on that, behead Christians.
	Christians may be uh could well be beheaded by an antichrist.
	Uh is an antichrist going to be a false Jewish Messiah?
	That's that's a whole other question.
	But if we were, yeah, if Judaism was true, and if there was going to be a literal Messiah that was not Jesus, you better believe Christians are going to be in trouble.
	Okay.
	I just don't think that uh because Jesus is the Messiah, when he returns, that's the end of it.
	I just don't see this scenario ever playing out.
	So please help me understand something.
	All right.
	And again, uh I I referenced something in a private email to you about conspiracy theories, and and so I understand why you're raising that.
	And and I know you you you're looking at this carefully, you're trying to dig, you're trying to understand.
	So I don't I don't, I'm not gonna use the word conspiracy theory because I I really want to understand.
	What is the I wouldn't let you use conspiracy because you said you haven't seen my videos yet, so you don't even know what's in there to call it a conspiracy.
	Yeah, not extensively enough.
	Fair enough.
	Yeah, that's why that's why I wanted that said plainly at the at the beginning.
	But either way, I wouldn't you have been generous enough to have me on the air with you in a very fair way.
	The last thing I'm gonna do is insult you or your viewers, okay, God forbid.
	And that's not my heart to do at all.
	But explain to me a scenario other than Judaism being true and and and us being wrong about Jesus.
	And other than that, and then there's a Jewish Messiah that's different than the one we're expecting, and he's going to enforce things.
	And people like me, I'm in big trouble.
	I'm in very big trouble because I'm a missionary telling Jews to believe in Jesus.
	I'm definitely in big trouble.
	If that's the case.
	Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
	I'm I'm a chief sinner.
	Especially because we've been effective in winning Jewish people to faith.
	But explain to me the scenario in which without a Jewish Messiah ruling over the world, that this could ever be enforced.
	That's why I haven't taken it seriously, because I don't see that scenario.
	So I'm I'm all ears.
	I'll just sit back and listen if you could explain this to me.
	Cool.
	Yeah, I'll definitely get into that info.
	And it's what I've been showing uh in documenting in my videos that I've done.
	They're up on my website.
	Uh another thing where we have common ground where I heard you you uh conceded or admitted or just acknowledge that there very likely could be a false one world religion.
	That seems to be part of the the agenda.
	So it seems to me like that's what Noahides is.
	So that that's why it's so concerning.
	I I understand that a false one world religion concerns me with say the Vatican, working together with Islam, working together with Judaism.
	I uh the the world ecumenical movement, if an antichrist figure uh was able to set up something like that, that would genuinely concern me, but not because of Noahide laws, because of a false one world religion and an antichrist ultimately wanting to kill Christians, but I think that antichrist would also end up killing a lot of Jews as well, as as I understand scriptures, if that's accurate.
	Uh but yeah, I I share that concern with you as some, and that's why I so resist any type of ecumenical movement.
	Okay, so let me uh let me show you this.
	Um you say how could this happen?
	You don't see any any way that this could happen.
	I see it, I see it unfolding every day.
	Uh for one, they're pushing this thing where it's any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism, be saying anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism.
	They're trying to push anti-Semitism laws all throughout the country.
	The the definition, I don't know if you've seen it, it's at state.gov, and it's just ridiculous language that you can't control uh accuse them of controlling anything, any any societal institution.
	It says that you can't uh talk about them being racists, you can't say that they have loyalty to to Israel.
	All of these things, I see this as a form of the no blasphemy, seven Noahide laws.
	They're trying to make it, you know, you talk about this stuff online, everybody's getting purged from YouTube.
	They're working closely with the ADL, uh Jonathan Greenblatt, the the CEO or director there.
	He wears the Kabbalah bracelet, and and I've read about the supremacy and the Kabbalah and uh the tree of life, how they're they think Gentiles are on the animalistic lower level, and um and the ADL's working with all of Silicon Valley to to do censorship, and they're like a branch of Israel.
	They have an office in Israel, they work closely with the government.
	So I see that that happening.
	And then also with the push with Noahide laws, like I mean, Chabad is incredibly influential in Russia, in the United States.
	Uh Trump donated to Chabad.
	He got a tree of life award in 1983.
	Kushner is Chabad, he's arguably one of the most powerful man, uh men uh in in the country right now, as top advisor to Trump.
	So I see them with a lot of influence, media, banking, government, and and I saw you kind of mocking that in one of your videos, saying that like Trump is controlled by the Jews.
	Like, you know, that's would you acknowledge that that Trump is has an APEC, Adelson, Netanyahu, Kushner, like I I I think, or at first I don't think Trump is controlled by anyone personally.
	I think he he does his own thing.
	There's definitely a lot of Jewish influence.
	I I see him more under the influence of evangelical Christians, uh, some of whom I you know I I know that are in regular contact with him.
	Um but they're Zionists, they they're they're almost they're like a step away from being Noahides with how much they worship uh Israel.
	Well, I wouldn't call it worshiping Israel.
	I'd call it recognizing that that God keeps his promises, you know, even though Israel fails, that God keeps his promises.
	Not all of them are stone Zionists.
	I think some of them certainly are one that I'm thinking of is not a stone Zionist.
	But either way, just but just to explain to me, though, at what point then that Trump, who professes to reverence Christianity, I don't think he's a real Christian, but professes to reverence that, who has, you know, a Mike Pence and Mike Pompeo, all these guys around him, and Ben Carson who are Christians, all these evangelicals, that now he's going to pivot and say, okay, actually, all of you are going to get beheaded now.
	I mean, that's such a jump to me of any anything that can be fathomable.
	It's one thing to say Jews have disproportionate influence here and there.
	And by the way, I am against laws that make it illegal to criticize Jews.
	I'm against absolutely oppose those.
	I oppose lies about Jewish people and demonizing about Jewish people, but I absolutely stand for freedom of speech.
	And even if I differ, I hate the fact that people are being purged from YouTube, people that I don't like are getting purged from YouTube.
	I differ with that.
	I get look, I'm in the same trouble with these people.
	You know, my videos get you know attacked and things, so I'm dealing with some of these same forces that you are.
	But again, I I don't I don't mean to insult what you're saying, but how do you get to that jump now where suddenly there's a shift?
	It's like, okay, now actually we want you to know that the under the Noahide laws Christians should be beheaded, and now they're going to start beheading Trump's evangelical council and Mike Pompeo and Mike Pence.
	I just don't see that.
	Well, I've never said that they're gonna come out next week and start beheading Christians.
	You know, this I've this is not imminent, it's not inevitable, but it has been their goal for since uh 70 AD, since their temple was destroyed.
	This is a question I wanted to ask you.
	So Zionism, the way I look at it, it's not just uh the ancestral homeland for the Jews to live in.
	I see it as 100% all about their prophecy.
	The reason that they had to have the state of Israel in Jerusalem and the Temple Mount are so important is because it fulfills their Zionist prophecy.
	They want to rebuild the temple, they want their Moshech to come, and they want to rule the world according to their prophecies.
	Right.
	So are you are you aware of what's called the three vows in the Talmud?
	No, enlighten us.
	Okay, so the vast majority of traditional Jews opposed the rebuilding of the modern state of Israel.
	Now there are many more that are sympathetic, but to this day, there are hundreds of thousands of Jews who live in Israel who are anti-Zionists, you know, among the religious Jewish community.
	So uh one of the three vows was that you you never rebel against the country where where you live.
	And this is obviously a lesson after rebelling against Rome and suffering uh two terrible wars, that you don't rebel against the country where you live.
	And uh another was that you don't try to come back to the land without the Messiah.
	So, in the view of traditional Jews uh that that hotly opposed uh the biggest uh Hasidic sect in the world, then uh or the most influential Satmar strongly opposed it.
	And the reason was they said that it's for the Messiah to do, and that if if Jews will make it happen on their own, they'll get in the way of the coming of the Messiah, it will incite more anti-Semitism worldwide, and that will end up being a secular state, which is the very worst thing because it won't be Torah observant.
	So the evangelical Christians have been much bigger on the prophecy end, actually.
	So traditional Jews pray every year next year in Jerusalem, but the view would be that the Messiah would do it by by leading Jewish people into obedience to the Torah, then regathering them back to the land, rebuilding the temple, fighting the enemies of the Lord, and then establishing universal peace where all the world would come to worship God, and the Jewish people would be like the priestly nation worshiping God, and then the Gentiles would learn of the ways of God from the Jews.
	And yes, the Jews would have a leadership role, no question about it.
	But it's evangelical Christians who push the prophecy thing a lot more.
	For traditional Jews, uh there's been a lot of resistance to the modern state of Israel for these reasons.
	So I don't see it as this Jewish ambition.
	And look, like 70% of the nation of Israel is secular, and your average Israeli Jew doesn't even think about rebuilding of the temple.
	And the majority traditional viewers don't do it.
	That's how we'll know the Messiah comes.
	So unless the scenario is that the Messiah, the Jewish Messiah is actually going to be the Antichrist.
	And then he's going to rebuild the temple and bring in a false religion, and then Christians will be persecuted.
	I got no problem with that scenario.
	In other words, that could happen.
	There could be a Jewish antichrist.
	I don't know who he'll be or what he'll be.
	How could the Moshech not be the Christian antichrist?
	That's who sits in the temple.
	That's who tries to establish the world government.
	It's like the perfect description is Moshiach is uh is uh the antichrist.
	It could be.
	You know, there's some that have made a case for an Islamic antichrist, prophecy teachers for years arguing he was European, but others think it'll be a Jewish false Messiah.
	So if that's the concern, in other words, that the Antichrist will actually be a Jew, and that and that the world will be deceived by him, and that Christians will be slaughtered then, fine.
	That's a concern I would I would say could be if if the antichrist is a Jew, that would be a totally valid concern.
	That that's the concern that uh I and my friends and my audience has, and and you'd have to acknowledge, you know, from the comments and the thumbs down and the views, like public opinion basically agree agrees that Noahide is a danger, is a concern, and we just want to expose it early on and not let you know a bunch of Christians be duped into being Noahides, which does seem to be their agenda.
	Well, I okay, I'm 100% stand with you that Christians should not be identified as Noahides.
	That uh I actually know of people who are former Christians who are uh apostates now that call themselves Bedne Noach.
	They just identify with the Noahide laws, they reject Jesus and they follow the teachings of the rabbis.
	To me, they have completely disgraced the Lord and it and have uh tread on the blood of the Son of God who died for them and accepted something completely secondary.
	And I have no idea why anyone would do that.
	So I'm I'm with you on that.
	I just here's my concern, Adam, to be as candid as I can.
	When people hear this, they now look at Jewish people and think the Jews in general want to want to be head Christians, or that there's this agenda that these guys think so.
	I I don't think anybody's saying Jews in general.
	We're talking about Chabad Lubavitch and the people that are actually pushing Noahide laws.
	Right, but in their mind, this is all theory.
	In other words, all these laws are theory.
	When Maimonides was writing his his his Mishnah Torah in the 12th century, there's they couldn't, they had no community to live.
	You know what I'm saying?
	They they were persecuted scattered people.
	They couldn't even enforce, you know, even in Israel, the death penalty is not enforced by religious Jews.
	It's it's waiting for this error when they believe Messiah comes, in which case there'll be peace in the entire earth and the whole world worshiping one God.
	That's when they see these laws being enforced.
	So, you know, I've I've been interacting with Chabad for years, and and we we clash, I mean, constantly, constantly, constantly, we're in battle with each other.
	Not when you debate smoothly on uh if the New Testament is anti-Semitic.
	Well, no, we we agreed.
	Well, he believes it is.
	He believes it needs to be changed and edited, and and and that a lot of passages need to be removed.
	You suggested that as well.
	You wrote that in your times of Israel article.
	You support improved translations.
	Translation, yeah, yeah.
	Don't you support improved translations of the Bible?
	Uh I'm not, I don't think Christians want the Bible to be uh rewritten.
	Not rewritten.
	No, no, no.
	The Hebrew and Greek texts, it it the New Testament written in Greek, as it is, word for word, letter for letter, that's the text.
	I bow down to it, that's the word of God.
	God forbid we alter it.
	But we need to translate, rather, in other words, if you look at the best Greek dictionaries, they'll tell you that the word that we translate Jew sometimes means Judean and sometimes means Jewish leaders.
	So all I'm saying is just translate accurately and confident, like in John 7, Jesus is afraid to go to Judea because he's afraid of the Judeans.
	Just translate accurately in conflict.
	But I'm glad you raised that.
	God forbid that you rewrite a syllable of God's word, that we tamper with a dot or or uh uh a line of God's word.
	And the New Testament makes clear that there is Jewish responsibility in the death of Jesus.
	Not only Jewish responsibility, but that Jewish leadership rejected Jesus and gave him over to the Romans to be killed.
	And that is a large reason why Jerusalem was destroyed in the year 70.
	Judgment on the Jewish leaders for rejecting Jesus the Messiah.
	So thanks for raising that, just to be clear.
	Something else I forgot to mention is that it's not just the seven laws of Noah, there's also sub-laws, and they're kind of always open to like more rabbinical interpretation.
	I've I've done there's articles about Noahide communities in Brazil and the Philippines, and they're being oversaw by Chabad rabbis, and they say that their goal is seven billion converts.
	They're open about that.
	And did you know that Netanyahu and the temple has endorsed the Noahide movement and that he it's affiliated with the Temple Institute as well?
	Bear in mind that his endorsing of it.
	So you would you would say he's going to change his position at some point.
	In other words, he would endorse it now, saying that Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are all Noahide faiths and that they are all monotheistic faiths worshiping the same God.
	Of course, I differ with the idea that we all worship the same God.
	But you would have to say that they're saying it now, but at some point in the future, they're going to change that.
	That would be your view.
	Well, I'm I'm just putting myself in somebody's head.
	If they want to uh get the world to adopt these laws, they're not going to tell Christians, hey, adopt these laws, even though it's going to be off with your head if you continue to worship Jesus.
	They're going to say, oh, you're fine until they it's like it's the conditions, I believe it's in the Talmud where they say, like, do this if you can get away with it, but if it'll cause a problem or if you're not mighty enough to pull it off, then you don't do it.
	Correct?
	Well, that um I'd like to know the exact source you're talking about.
	But there is not Jewish teaching that would be the equivalent of Islam in terms of you know takiyyah and specific denial for uh you know for for religious purposes.
	But I I I look all I can say is because I've been in constant conflict with rabbis in the Jewish community for for decades, when the Noahide laws thing has come up, it's come up in a very benign way.
	And that's always the way it's been, even with Chabad rabbis.
	So we're clashing, we're in conflict, you know, they they believe I'm I'm I'm doing destructive work.
	And and uh I had a Chabad rabbi tell me at Stonebrick University years ago when I was talking to him that if it had been in the days of the second temple, that that molten uh burning uh lead would have been poured down my throat to kill me.
	You know, that's that's that's what he thought of my work.
	And yet when Noahide laws come up, it's always very benign.
	It's like that's fine for the goem, it's fine for the Gentiles, but you're a Jew, you should be observed the Torah, you know, etc.
	So that's that's that's why I've reacted the way I have with such astonishment.
	But help help me understand this.
	Go ahead.
	I'm sorry.
	Well, well, that's that's kind of your anecdotal personal experience.
	But you know, I've got numerous clips of rabbis online talking about the Noahide laws, saying incredibly extreme stuff.
	And and I saw in one of your videos you're saying like it's a debate.
	It's a debate if idol worship, uh, if Christianity is idol worship or not.
	Just the fact that it's a debate is enough cause for concern.
	Like, imagine if there was uh, you know, there was a bunch of Muslims that had uh influence in our government, like where Kushner's at, and they were debating if they should implement Noahide laws.
	Don't you would it be concern to you even though it was just a debate?
	I'm sorry, I should have said Sharia law, I said Noahide.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Even though it's a debate, it's still a concern.
	Yes, okay.
	I I fully understand that perspective.
	That's a great analogy.
	That's very helpful analogy.
	Of course, look, where I hear of communities in America where they want to be governed by Sharia law, or where they have agreed to that in the UK, I know where that's going.
	So that's a very helpful analogy in terms of from your viewpoint, they're parallel.
	From my viewpoint, they're not parallel because This is legal theory and debate that the Talmud is full of, and that Jewish people have been engaged in for centuries, and that there's no thought of enforcing it because there's no power to enforce it or will to enforce it.
	That would only happen when uh when Messiah is presently here.
	So the only possible scenario which this could happen is if there is a Jewish antichrist at some point in the future, which to me, then again, that's the big issue.
	Not the Noahide laws, but with a Jewish antichrist that's gonna have worship of him alone, that's gonna be our battle.
	And as I understand scripture, that's that's gonna be the issue.
	That the Antichrist is going to demand complete allegiance and obedience to him alone, and those who won't bow to him will be put to death.
	Well, who who is cheerleading for Moshiach more than Chabad, and they're also the ones pushing pushing Noahide laws.
	You know, I wanted to ask you uh, do you support the rebuilding of the temple?
	Do I support it?
	Uh in what way?
	Do am I behind it?
	Am I encouraging it?
	Like there's a ton of Christians that are just saying, yeah, we gotta rebuild the temple, you know.
	No, I'm not one, I'm not one of them.
	I believe it will be rebuilt, as I understand prophetic scripture.
	Uh, as far as I can tell, it will be rebuilt.
	I believe it'll be part of uh of a final deception of Israel, where they'll think that that they're vindicated and and and God has fully backed them and and backed the Sinai covenant, and that will be kind of the I expect there to be heavy persecution of Jewish believers in Jesus in Israel.
	Some of my fellow Messianic Jews have been persecuted and and there have been threats.
	I expect that to get very heavy.
	I think I could easily see, very easily see that just what we saw in the New Testament with people like Stephen being killed for their faith in Israel, as as Jewish believers in Jesus or someone like me there, I see that as a very real possibility.
	Uh so I believe it's gonna happen prophetically, that the temple would be rebuilt, but I don't I don't support it.
	I don't see it as a positive.
	I see it just as a final thing that's gonna happen in terms of an end time deception uh before Jesus returns.
	And if there is a physical temple, then that's the one I'm looking forward to, the one that he builds.
	If there will be one, that's the one I'm looking forward to.
	That's good to hear that you're not for the temple, because that that's a lot of uh the stuff that I cover that I'm worried about.
	The people like uh I saw you were on Jim Baker uh about a year ago, and you were saying that uh Trump is uh moving the embassy to Jerusalem, and this is kind of a prophetic event, and like that guy, Jim Baker is always talking about and having guests on about rebuilding the temple.
	They're they're trying to force all these uh prophecies to happen.
	And yeah, it it could be.
	I I don't, you know, I was on Jim's show, and that's the extent of my following things.
	But look, I'm on lots of shows.
	You've had me on your show, so that's gonna make you look bad to some, you know.
	Oh, I'm sure.
	And you said uh you you are concerned about Christians in Israel, and and they could their enforcement could expand beyond Israel.
	It could it could happen in the United States as well.
	But you know, I was thinking that how the Christian radio station was burned down in Israel pretty recently.
	And I think you had a run-in where people were in the street giving you a hard time as well.
	They're they're spitting on Christians, burning down the churches.
	I mean, they're just it's like I don't understand why all the Christians support Chabad, support this animal sacrifice that's happening, supporting the real build rebuilding of the temple.
	If they're for Jesus, where did Jesus ever talk about rebuilding the temple?
	Yeah, I think...
	One more thing.
	Modern Judaism is basically just like the Pharisees, Right?
	Pharisees kind of morphed into modern Judaism.
	Yeah, uh, of course, the uh traditional Jews think that the New Testament picture of the Pharisees is very unfair.
	But yes, they would say that they are the heirs of the Pharisees, that the Pharisees then became the rabbis and the founders of rabbinic Judaism.
	And uh Adam, uh just real quick, what's what's your own religious affiliation?
	I was raised uh Church of Christ, but uh as a journalist I like to keep a neutral, uh ambiguous stance.
	Okay.
	All right, so I I just didn't know if what I was gonna say was gonna offend you.
	So uh but It's been it's been rightly said that Judaism is no more the religion of the Old Testament than Catholicism is the religion of the New Testament.
	In other words, both of them have the Bible, so the Old Testament for Judaism, the whole Bible for Catholicism, but it's the Bible plus tradition.
	And if you go to a Roman Catholic service and you think, where is why are they doing this and look at the calendar and views of the Pope and all that?
	The vast majority of it comes by way of Catholic tradition.
	Traditional Jew believes that on Mount Sinai, God gave Moses the written law and the oral law, and the oral law has been passed on through each generation, and that with the oral law, there is the interpretation of the written law.
	So for example, when the Bible says don't observe the Sabbath, and if you if you work on the Sabbath, you're put to death, then the rabbi said, well, where in the Bible does it say what it means to work on the Sabbath?
	You need the oral explanation that was given to Moses that's allegedly preserved in the Talmud.
	So as I mentioned, my five-volume series answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, I have a whole f uh a whole volume, volume five, why I reject that Talmudic authority.
	But I just want to double back to one thing.
	When you mention that public opinion uh is against against me on the Noahide laws, right?
	So for example, when I've gone after Rick Wiles and True News and accused them of anti-Semitism, say my average video, we've got like 2,000 videos and almost 100,000 followers on YouTube.
	I think you've got a lot more YouTube followers than me.
	But my average video gets like 90, 95% thumbs up.
	When I went after Rick Wiles and True News, that has more thumbs down than thumbs up.
	And Noahide law is either more thumbs down than thumbs up or very close.
	But that to me just tells me that there's a lot of animosity against Jewish people and a lot of things being believed against them falsely.
	No, no, it's not Jewish people.
	People disagreeing with you in the comments and in the thumbs isn't people hating on Jewish people.
	It's people, Christians disagreeing with your stance that Noahide laws should be no concern.
	And in the fact that you're going after like Christians who are anti-Zionists, like like True News or Ted Pike or E. Michael Jones, you you're focusing all the attention on them, but I don't see you talking about these uh Jim Baker and these Third Temple people who are essentially working with the Pharisees to rebuild the temple to usher in the Moshiach.
	It just seems uh amazing that Christians support the Pharisees to rebuild the temple.
	Yeah, so uh on that point, and and by the way, look, all of us focus on different issues.
	You know, I could ask you why you don't focus on certain other things, but you have your interests, you have things that you feel are important, and the same with me.
	Uh, because I've seen uh the effect of of anti-Semitism among professing Christians and and vile ugly things, and by the way, you have I'm sure you get a lot of hate mail too, but the flood of Jew-hating stuff that comes my way, you know, and Hitler didn't do a good enough job, and you hook nose Zionist scum, calling me a secret Mossad agent or working with Chabad, and then the filthiest stuff, and then saying, and they're saying it is Christians.
	So there is a lot of junk out there, and that's why I go after it.
	But without question, Adam, there is a lot of superficial excitement about Israel, about prophecy that to me does not carry the heart and soul of God.
	We do Israel tours every year or two, and it's very impacting to go through places in the Bible where Jesus was where Elijah called on fire from heaven, and to think of Jesus coming back here one day and what's going to happen in the future.
	It's it's very intense.
	So it's a totally non-political tour.
	It's deeply spiritual.
	But I tell people, I want you to go back with a burden to pray for Jewish people to know Jesus.
	I want you to come back burdened for Israel.
	So, yes, there are a lot of beautiful things and great things and excellent things, but my last desire is to exonerate Israel.
	Look, far and away the most gay-friendly city in America, uh in the world, uh, according to polls is Tel Aviv.
	You almost said America, like Israel is a state of uh Freudian slip there.
	Yeah, I I but you you confuse Sharia with Noahide, so that was your Freudian slip.
	So we're even easy mistake, easy mistake to make.
	Okay, right, right.
	Anyway, good comeback.
	So here but there's a lot of uh look uh is Israeli women serving in the IDF can get free abortions.
	Uh you have gay pride marches in the streets of Jerusalem.
	Uh you have the ultra ultra-orthodox.
	Uh some of them can be incredibly venomous towards Christians.
	And and some of them have defaced churches and things like that.
	Now, the vast majority of the religious Jewish community is appalled by some of these acts.
	But yeah, you have extremists, no question about it.
	And when I was in Israel uh last year, uh I got arrested because I was harassed by this this uh counter-missionary from a group called the Ad Lachim, and he started trouble.
	And the more he started trouble, I could have just walked away, but I decided he's not gonna chase me out of here, so I'm gonna preach.
	And then that got ultra-orthodox Jews around me, and the Jesus they know is is the version they know from the Talmud, so he's an idol worshiper that led Israel astray, and he and he's burning an excrement in hell, in in their view, and they're in their mind, there's a straight line from the New Testament to the Holocaust.
	Uh so you know that they're coming with their hostility.
	Of course, when I got arrested, and the guy sat down with me, he said, fine, you didn't do anything, and just had me walk away with a big smile, you know.
	Um but yeah, there are fanatics, there's no question.
	Uh there are friends of ours, friends of friends in Israel where their son was blown up by a bomb from an ultra-orthodox Jew a few years ago, Ami Ortiz miraculously survived.
	We have friends with another Messiatic congregation that was firebombed years ago by uh religious Jewish fanatics.
	So I don't I don't deny that or downplay that.
	So there is a superficial sensationalistic excitement about the prophecy, all the prophecies are all being fulfilled.
	Oh, have they found the red heifer yet?
	Oh, I'm not into any of that.
	I'm not into any of that.
	I believe a lot of these things are gonna happen, that they're prophesied, but let God bring them to pass.
	To me, moving the embassy to Jerusalem was important just to because any nation in the world where they set up their embassy, we recognize it.
	And to me, there was no valid reason not to move, but I took that as positive.
	But again, you're absolutely right.
	I'm I'm in between.
	I I am I'm in two different worlds, so I get hit from both sides on these issues.
	Right.
	Okay, um do you think it's supremacist to say that uh Jews are God's chosen?
	Do you see how that's uh chosenness?
	I I see that as a supremacist.
	It can be taken that way.
	In the Jewish notion, it's taken as privilege.
	Uh some Jewish texts say that it it shows God's grace because the Jews were the weakest of all people and the most inferior.
	So for God to choose them shows his grace.
	Uh most religious Jews take it as a sacred responsibility.
	There is no question that there is some Jewish pride, uh, that we are somehow, when I say we, a Jewish person would think they are somehow superior, uh, or that by being chosen by God to give light to the nations that that puts them on a higher level.
	The rabbis I've interacted with for years, and again, in the midst of conflict, and and I've read extensively, got a massive rabbinic library, is that it's taken more of a sense of privilege and calling.
	And just like Christians believe that we are now the light of the world, which tests a sense of privilege and calling, despite our shortcomings because of God's grace through Jesus.
	So a traditional Jew looks at it as the great privilege that that he, his family that they were entrusted with all the commandments of the Torah, and they feel it's their sacred responsibility to make God known to the nations.
	But that is that is a biblical concept.
	In other words, when you when you read through the Torah, God did say I'm choosing you for a purpose, but it's not because you're better than anyone.
	In fact, you're a stiff-necked people, but I'm doing it because I loved Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and made a covenantal promise.
	But for some, yeah, there's definitely a streak of Jewish superiority and secular Jews and religious Jews, but it's certainly not always inherent in the concept of chosenness, and plenty of other Jews just see it as sacred responsibility.
	Okay.
	Um I wanted to talk about uh I saw you you you had a you wrote a column for World Net Daily.
	Do you still do that?
	Yeah, my columns are syndicated, so they're they're posted.
	I I write like one column a week just for the stream, but otherwise all of my columns go up on a bunch of different sites.
	Okay ChristianPost.com, World Net Daily, uh Charisma, uh Chris Media, Town Hall.com, some political sites and and uh Christian sites.
	Okay.
	All right, but before we get there, actually, you can see the screen, right?
	Um we were talking about how I'm saying like they may not be 100% honest about what the Noahide laws are.
	This is from Chabad, telling the truth and when it is permissible to be less than honest.
	So this is the type of thing that I've read.
	I don't I can't quote you the exact verse right now, but I I've read this several times, and it's all about them when they are mighty, when they are mighty, they can uh they can really pull off everything, but until then they're you know, you cannot be permissible or tell not telling the truth, don't have to give the full truth.
	I've also seen stuff about how Jews can kind of like trick Christians, that kind of thing.
	I just I just typed this in and and and looking at it.
	Um yeah, uh let me let me just say this.
	It's been very helpful to hear your perspective, so I understand why you see things the way that you do.
	It's been very helpful, even if I still disagree, honestly, it's it's been helpful to hear where you're coming from and how this could just be like Muslims, you know.
	I mean, look, uh uh the the common view with Islam, uh someone once told me a Protestant friend with Catholicism that it when when it's in the minority, it's it's a lamb.
	When it's in equality, it's a fox, when it's in the majority, it's a tiger.
	Perhaps you could say that with various groups, you know.
	Right, yeah.
	You have to posture yourself as God forbid that that a loyal follower of the Lord would think like that.
	But yeah, so you posture yourself a certain way, and then oh, like Sharia.
	No, it's Sharia law is fine, it's just for Muslims, it's no big deal, and and and then when you get to a place where you have a bit of a majority, okay, you do it or off with your head.
	So I understand what you're saying here.
	Uh, I can only say that having read sources firsthand about Noah Hyde laws, even some of the ones that that others have been saying, you gotta read this, you've got to look at this as divine code.
	Some other books have I bought those, I've looked at those, and I keep doing it.
	I keep buying more and you know, reading more, study more to try to see where people are coming from, etc.
	But all the people that I know, uh, and it's not it's not a lot, but the Jews that I know that like are really devoted to pushing the Noahide laws, like a guy like Arthur Goldberg, for example, really devoted to doing it.
	I I know him pretty decently.
	And his whole thing is that Christians, Muslims, Jews need to unite together to do this.
	Uh, you're saying the whole thing could be a deception based on these principles.
	So again, my experience, the understanding of the sources is very different than yours, but I I do understand what you're saying.
	And then you look at you know, the Mark Zuckerbergs of the world and the George Sarases of the world and Jewish power here and control here, and the the dots can be connected in your mind.
	I understand where you're going with despite my differences.
	I do understand what you're thinking.
	Yeah, you should I'll I'll send you the link to one of my Noahide law videos, and you could see because one of the things you said in your video is that you're you're open to debate.
	You want to hear where's the evidence for all this stuff, and I've gone over I've gone over a bunch of it in my videos.
	Um I want to ask you about uh Edom.
	I've seen articles and I've read that Edom is basically the new it's Rome, it's the West, it's Christianity.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Many times in the Talmud, the Edom can be code for Rome.
	Sometimes it's code for Christianity, sometimes it's code for both.
	So it's it's a way of one not mentioning it by name, but two mentioning it in a disparaging way as as something secondary and something rejected.
	Yeah.
	So I've also seen, I've also seen, I guess, in the Jewish encyclopedia or somewhere it says that Jews are Edom.
	But the the reason I brought it up is because I've seen there's a clip, I've got clips of rabbis saying that Christianity, the United States, Rome is Edom, and that they have to fall in the end times.
	And they that's why they're saying um this refugee crisis is a good thing.
	It means Moshiach is coming.
	This is the Messianic era when Edom gets destroyed.
	It sounds like they have an open plan to destroy Christianity.
	Well, certainly, very, very traditional Jews look forward to the day when all Christians and all Muslims and all Hindus and atheists all worship the God of Israel and abandon what they believe is wrong.
	For example, there's a verse in Jeremiah 16 where the nations of the world at the end of the age will turn to God and say we've inherited lies from our fathers.
	So in the view of Maimonides, that will be what Christians will say at the end.
	Muslims as well.
	According to Maimotonies, Christianity has served a purpose of bringing the concept of Messiah to the world, and Islam has served the purpose of bringing the concept of keeping commandments and monotheism to the world, but that in the end, Christians and Muslims will repudiate their faith and say we've been in error and we now recognize the one true God of the Messiah.
	There's another Talmudic view in the tractate Sanhedrin that the whole world will become Christian before the end.
	That the whole world will descend in the view of the Talmud into spiritual darkness and apostasy, and then the end will come.
	But there's when it comes when it comes to the end times, there are a thousand and one different views in Judaism because it's not law.
	You know, law is like what you have to do.
	The end times is something where there's speculation.
	But yeah, I would not doubt that there are many, many traditional rabbis that look forward to the day, just like I as a Christian look forward to the day that Islam will fall to the gospel, not by the sword, but by the truth.
	And I look forward to the day when Jesus will return and destroy his enemies, whoever they are.
	I look forward to that day.
	You know, if you had, for example, ISIS about to kill Christians and Jesus returns, well, ISIS going to get burned up.
	So I look forward to that day.
	The question is, is there in your thinking a way that that's going to happen first?
	If it's the Lord coming in the clouds of heaven with fire, we all get on our faces.
	No one's going to argue with that.
	But you're thinking that some system can be set up, that there are enough Jews in high places in the world, that they could then have some kind of world influence.
	Because I think they're using the Christian leaders.
	It's it's a great segue.
	I don't know if you've read this by Yitzhak Ginsburg, Kabbalah and Meditation for the Nations.
	He says all that about how you've you've been given, you Gentiles have been given a false heritage, and the leaders, you know, it's Christianity has a silver lining.
	It's idolatry, but it's good because at least they've they're looking for salvation in a Jew.
	It's just one Jew, Jesus, and not all the Jews, the nation of priests, which he wants us to be devoted servants and basically just worship the Jewish people and worship Israel, is how he describes being a Noahide.
	God, and listen, one other perspective, because I'm in constant conflict with the Jewish community, I do treat about the Jewish roots of the faith.
	I mean, as just the truth about what the New Testament says.
	And I do combat what I believe are lies about the Jewish people historically, or that all Jews somehow are directly responsible for killing Jesus and you know, share some corporate worldwide responsibility, things like that I'll oppose.
	But because I'm in constant conflict with the Jewish community, especially traditional rabbis, it's it's so hard for me to think of Christians like falling in love with Judaism.
	You know what I'm saying?
	It's like it's such a different way.
	No, how is that hard to think?
	That's all I see.
	Look at here, I got a clip for you.
	Watch this.
	First clip.
	I've got I've been preparing for days, Dr. Brown, for this.
	I've got a good clip for you here.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Have you seen this?
	This is when Netanyahu is felt is uh secretly filmed at a West Bank uh settlement.
	No, uh-huh.
	I haven't seen it.
	He says the Arabs are currently focused focusing on a war of terrorism.
	They think it will break us.
	main thing first of all is to hit them So he's saying the U.S. will say, how come you're conquering again?
	You've never seen this?
	And he says, No, not this particular clip.
	No, sir.
	He says the world won't say a thing.
	The world will say we're defending.
	Aren't you afraid of the world, BB?
	He says.
	Aren't you afraid of the world, BB?
	Especially today with America.
	He says, I know what America is.
	America is something that can be easily moved, moved in the right direction.
	Shoot, I just realized I haven't had this on the screen.
	You've been seeing it, but the audience doesn't.
	America is something that can be moved, moved in the right direction.
	And then he says, Sorry, they say they're for us, but it's like they won't get in our way.
	They won't get in our way.
	On the other hand, if we do something, then they okay, let's say 80% of America support us.
	It's absurd.
	And you know, um, I know you've got some um uh I want to talk about oh, where are we here?
	Let me bring you back.
	Uh I want to talk to you about the charismatic movement a bunch, which I just learned about in the last uh yesterday.
	And um I saw Morning Star Church had a video where it was like since 1948, America has been blessed because we support Israel, and you know, if you're cursed if you don't, like with religion, you know, America's lots of Christians, and they're all turning to be Zionists.
	That's how they're gonna be able to pull this off.
	And with Netanyahu saying it's absurd with how much support they get.
	Right, but the Christian Zionists are not gonna say, okay, actually turn around and behead us now.
	The the tens of millions of Christian Zionists are you know, and and the Christian leaders in America are not gonna say that.
	I mean, they'll be Noahides first, they'll be converted to be Noahides.
	They're gonna be there there's a agenda right now to push that uh the Jews actually didn't kill Jesus, and they're pushing that you can't say you can't use the word Pharisees anywhere.
	Like this is an incremental thing.
	They're they're relentless, they're not gonna give up with the temple and their end times because they need to have the temple, they need to declare the Moshech in their minds to prove that Jesus wasn't the Messiah.
	So I I don't think you should underestimate their uh their um passion for this.
	Let me ask you this though.
	Do you think it means nothing that for almost 50 years I've had constant candid interaction with rabbis and Jewish leaders, and that their views on how the messianic era is going to come to pass are completely different than anything you're saying.
	Are you just gonna discount all of that as anecdotal and of and of no value?
	Almost 50 years in in many, many, many, many, many, many hours and a totally candid conversation because the view is that it'll be a world leader that brings about world peace through teaching and through through influence, and that with that established, then is proven to be the Messiah as opposed to, and look, you're your average religious Jew.
	Jesus is not in their thoughts.
	The idea they have to prove he wasn't the Messiah, that's not their they can really reject him, and they just believe that those that follow him are in deep and serious error and and deception.
	They're longing for Messiah to come because they want to see the day in their mind when the rule of God is on the earth, when the whole world worship is worships the God of Israel, when there's you know, Isaiah 11, no war, no, no, no attack, no hatred, that all the nations come streaming to Jerusalem and beat their swords into plowshares, there's no more war.
	That's what they're longing for and looking forward to, uh, as opposed to, you know, we've got to do this to set up our kingdom and to bring dominion.
	You may be reading that here and there, but you know, I've I've got tons of sources and things I've read over the years.
	The praying for the coming of the Messiah and the weeping for the coming of the Messiah is for God's rule to be established on the earth where the whole world worships him, and you have some of the prophecies of scripture fulfilled.
	But just coming back to this, so do I hotly strongly, passionately, adamantly, categorically, unequivocally oppose Christi Christians converting to Noahide followers.
	Of course, of course, of course, of course.
	So that again is part of your scenario.
	That hundreds of millions of Christians will convert to, or or tens of millions of influential Christian leaders will renounce Jesus and become Noahide followers, and they will be the ones who will then be enforcing this.
	That's part of your scenario, I guess.
	Well, it's you know, it's there's gonna be some incremental steps before that actually happens.
	I'm not saying that all the Christian leaders are gonna turn and saying, okay, everybody, no more Jesus, or you're decapitated.
	It's it's like I said, it's in the Messianic era.
	It's it's in the future, but this is what their objectives are, which is why I see it a c as a concern now.
	And and they sell the the Jewish utopia, which I covered in uh I don't know if you you've read this one, Jewish Utop.
	Oh, wow, how about that?
	Synchronicity.
	We didn't plan that.
	No, we didn't plan it.
	So um they sell it that it's oh, it's a temple for everyone and it's peace and there's no more war, but really it's you may have like Maimonides says, you may have a place in the world to come if you keep the Noahide laws, which the way they interpret it is no Jesus and you have to worship Israel.
	You have to be the devoted servants, helping helping them with the temple and then and then uh acknowledging the Moshiach is the other part of it.
	Right, right, but not worshiping Israel.
	If if people use that language, it's it's negative language.
	Look, I sent some clips to Orthodox rabbis, very learned guys that that I'm in constant battle with.
	Some of the clips with some extreme statements, Noahide statements or beheading statements, and I sent them to some very learned rabbis that are well established in the religious community, and they said you got nutcases everywhere that make us all look bad.
	And you know, I I know these guys, and and I I knew that they would react like that.
	But the the idea is the the by the way, the messianic era is not the world to come.
	Okay, that's that's something after the Messianic era.
	That's like eternity, it's heaven.
	So who enters the Messianic era?
	It's everyone that's living when the Messiah is revealed according to Judaism, that those people that enter the Messianic era, and that's the time then where they believe that all these prophecies of universal peace will be fulfilled, that there won't be any more animosity, that the Jewish people as a nation will worship the God of Israel, and those who don't uh they would be the first ones judged.
	In other words, in traditional Judaism in the Messianic era, if a Jew decided not to observe the Torah, they'd be put to death for that.
	If Jew decide not to observe the Sabbath, they'd be put to death because the Messiah's gonna rule with a rod of iron.
	So that's objectionable to the vast majority of Jews worldwide that are not religious.
	You know, 80, 90% of Jews worldwide are not Orthodox Jews.
	And in point of fact, evangelical Christians in Israel are stronger supporters of Israel than American Jews.
	Many American Jews are are upset with the treatment of the Palestinians and and are not that not that strong supporters of it, you know, they support Israel, but not the same way many evangelical Christians do.
	Many of them are are very critical of of modern Israel.
	But my critiques of the Christian Zionists are just about as strong as uh, you know, similar to how the Orthodox Jews are more upset with you than with Gentiles.
	I'm more upset with Christian Zionists sometimes than with you know some of these uh Chabad people or people who I see are uh uh up to no good.
	Here's a question.
	Do you think that Christian Zionists that want to rebuild the temple so that the antichrist comes and Jesus comes and defeats them?
	Do you think those Christian Zionists are so-called anti-Semitic?
	Um why why would they be anti-Semitic?
	Well, because they're only helping the Jews build the temple so that Jesus will come and either convert them or or kill them, correct?
	Yeah, there is okay, in terms of larger concerns about anti-Semitism, demonizing the Jewish people as a whole, dehumanizing the Jewish people as a whole, uh spreading lies about the nation as a whole.
	No, absolutely not.
	I would not see them as anti-Semitic.
	However, there are Christians, Christian Zionists, uh, some, who are praying for their Jewish people to return to the land, but then they believe that the rapture will take place, that Christians will be taken off the earth, and that the Jews will then be slaughtered, that two thirds will be slaughtered by the Antichrist in the land of Israel.
	And many have said that that is hardly a Jewish loving position to say we want we're praying for you all to go back to the land so that the prophecies can be fulfilled and two thirds of you will get slaughtered.
	Uh At the very least, that's a very superficial uh love for Israel.
	If if that's what you believe, you should be mourning and praying and wailing and warning as opposed to all excited about the prophecies being fulfilled.
	Right.
	And um, okay, so here's before we get into uh the charismatic movement, because this is uh this was new to me going over this yesterday.
	I wanted to ask you about circumcision, which I know is a little kind of an awkward question, but you know, you are the theologian, so I wanted to ask, what is your take as a Messianic Jew on uh circumcision?
	It does nothing for someone's salvation.
	What Paul says in in 1 Corinthians 7 and Galatians 6 is circumcision is nothing.
	What matters is keeping the commandments of God.
	So as far as salvation, forgiveness of sins, right relationship with God through Jesus, circumcision is of no value.
	Paul also writes in 1 Corinthians 7, if you were called, meaning called to salvation, circumcised, don't become uncircumcised.
	If you were called uncircumcised, don't become circumcised.
	So we know that Paul has Timothy circumcised, his mother was a Jew, his father was a gentile, and he wasn't circumcised at birth, and and for the Jewish mission Paul was doing, he had Timothy circumcised, but he wouldn't let Titus be circumcised because he was a Gentile.
	So aside from the medical procedure, which we're not talking about, we're talking about doing this in a in a spiritual way, uh many Messianic Jews that I know as uh continuing the Abrahamic covenant, because God gave this to Abraham in Genesis 17 before the Sinai Covenant, they will circumcise their sons and have a and a ceremony for doing it uh in connection with being Jews, and as Paul wrote, if you're called circumcised, don't become uncircumcised.
	So it's a way of saying that we're still part of our people, even though we've been rejected for our faith in Jesus, we're still showing solidarity with our forefather Abraham.
	So that's that's great, that's fine, but it doesn't make anyone more or less spiritual and it doesn't forgive any sins.
	So I just was reminded of another question I have.
	I've noticed that you don't you don't call yourself a Christian.
	You you prefer to say uh Jewish believer in Jesus.
	Yeah, I mean I referred to him, I referred to myself as a Christian once during the show, and as I minister around the world, many people know me as a Christian, I'm known as a Christian commentator.
	But the word has changed from its original New Testament meaning.
	Its original New Testament meaning, it only occurs three times in the New Testament, Acts 11, Acts 26, and 1 Peter 4.
	And it didn't mean a follower of another religion.
	What it meant was someone, it was apparently a mocking term that the communities gave when they saw these Jews and Gentiles following this guy called Christos Christos, they didn't even know what it meant.
	So it would be like calling one of your followers a Greenite or one of my followers a brownite.
	It was it was an insulting term, but over the years, the idea was that if you were a Christian, that you were no longer a Jew, that if you were a Christian, that you renounced any any heritage or any connection to to the uh the forefathers or anything like that.
	So, in order to explain, no, I'm still a Jew, but I'm a Jew who follows Jesus, my identity is in him.
	We often refer to ourselves as messianic Jews because Jewish Christian can be an oxymoron.
	But if being identified with Jesus, if I say I'm a Christian, meaning I am a believer that Jesus is the only Savior, that he died for our sins, rose from the dead, and is coming again, and there's no salvation outside of him, and that the New Testament along with the Old Testament is God's word.
	Count me in.
	I am 1,000% a Christian and stand with the Christian faith.
	Just want it to be rightly understood.
	And for outreach purposes, terminology matters, words matter.
	Okay.
	So uh as a Jewish Christian, um hypothetically, I'm I'm not sure.
	I don't want to talk about your family, but if you did have a boy, would you decide to continue the tradition of uh circumcision?
	Yeah, we have we had two daughters, and then we have uh two grandsons, they were just circumcised uh medically.
	Uh yeah, but I I would do it as part of the solidarity, going back to the covenant with Abraham and in keeping with what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7, that if that's when you started then continue in that way.
	But fully understanding it guarantees nothing, fully understanding that it doesn't bring salvation or right relationship with God.
	That in and of itself, it doesn't do anything, but it is simply a token and a sign of our of our connection to our people.
	Okay.
	And um I'm sure you condemn the moyles that still do the sucking and stuff.
	I'm right.
	That's that probably goes without saying, I'm sure.
	Yeah, I mean, I don't understand why there's such devotion to it.
	There seems to be dangerous health issues with it.
	I haven't focused on the debate intensely, but why it's held to.
	There's absolutely nothing in the Bible calling for it, commanding it.
	So I really don't understand why it's such a sacred thing and why people fight over it, especially with the inherent health risks.
	Right.
	Well, I believe there's health risks just to normal circumcision as well, but we don't have to open up that rabbit hole.
	No, we won't we won't go there.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So uh I want to talk about the charismatic movement, also uh but Pentecostal, which is this is the first denomination that you got in uh back when you were uh a rocker?
	Uh yeah, so when I came to faith in 1971, I was a heroine shooting LSD using long-haired hippie rock drummer, and uh was born again at the age of 16, and it was in the context of a little Italian Pentecostal church.
	So Pentecostal movement is earlier than the charismatic movement, but broadly speaking, charismatic movement includes Pentecostalism.
	So I came to faith in what we would call a charismatic church.
	Okay, and for people that don't know, what are uh the way I saw it, charismatic church seemed like there was two big differences, and that is uh speaking in tongues and faith healing.
	Is that uh accurate uh summary?
	More specifically, in the New Testament, there are various gifts called the charismatic gifts, like speaking in tongues or prophecy or gifts of healing or things like that.
	And the viewpoint is that these things continue until today, that the New Testament indicates that these will be here until Jesus returns, and that through parts of church history, the church got away from these things, but that this should be normative in the life of a Christian, the gifts and power of the Spirit for today.
	And like anything else, you have abuses, you know, you have the abusive televangelists, you know, and fraudulent fundraising and and fraudulent healers.
	But again, with anything, you're gonna have counterfeit and the real.
	So uh yes, uh there was a season when I was working on my PhD in Semitic languages in the late 70s, early 80s, where I really questioned a lot of this biblically and I challenged a lot of my foundations, but studying the word, I I was even more convinced that these things remain for for this day.
	And uh by God's grace, I've seen a lot of amazing things happen over the years in America and around the world.
	So back like in the 70s when you first came to the church, it was Pentecostal.
	Did how long before you were speaking in in tongues?
	And is this the speaking in tongues where you're just um like it could be interpreted, somebody could hear the language and and uh be able to translate it, or is this just kind of like freestyle uh gibberish that only God can comprehend?
	Well, there are there are instances, plenty of instances where people speak a foreign language and don't know it.
	And you know, I've I've known those to happen, and it happened with friends of mine.
	Uh, but it's not just because someone doesn't understand it doesn't mean it's it's gibberish.
	In other words, if if I just started speaking a language here that no one knew, it might sound strange to them, but it doesn't mean it's not a real language.
	If it was freestyle gibberish, you could just make it up right now, just go blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, or whatever, you're scat singing in jazz, you know, blah blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and think you're speaking in tongues.
	But uh, I uh December 17th of 71, it was when I really deeply encountered the Lord and said, I'll never put a needle in my arm again and was free from that night on five weeks later, January 24th of 72 at a prayer meeting was the first time I began to speak in tongues.
	And as I was praying and worshiping, I just began to feel something building up in me, you know, and new expression, new language, and and as I began to speak it, it began to flow and you know I could speak in tongues for for hours I could be reading a book I could be writing a book I could be using my mind in different ways while I'm speaking there's there's there's something cognitively different happening.
	You only do this privately right?
	Yeah the the public use would be if there's interpretation.
	In other words that that you speak and someone that has the gift of interpretation according to the Bible that they interpret.
	Otherwise it's for private use or it's for use only among believers.
	It's not for a public meeting where nonbelievers can come in and and you know I'm getting up behind the microphone and speaking in tongues for 10 minutes that the New Testament would say that's out of order.
	That that doesn't help the people because they don't understand what you're saying.
	Interesting so how how often do you still speak in tongues?
	Is it a everyday thing?
	Sure sure daily as a as I pray then I'll then I'll pray in English with my understanding.
	Yeah this is a bit of a it's a bit of a switch from the Noahide discussion but uh yeah I'm happy to answer the questions.
	I I pray in tongues normally on a daily basis sure.
	Yeah do you if if I were to ask you would you I would say I would imagine you wouldn't want to do it publicly there's 2700 people watching.
	That's a that's is that a good turnout for you or is that it is no that's a good it's a good turnout.
	They're all here for you.
	Well that's that's that's tremendous here so let me just say no so I wouldn't speak in tongues as a show or do it here.
	But uh I might be able to translate there are enough instances of people speaking in tongues and YouTube videos that people can watch.
	But let me let me just say two two things uh and again I I really appreciate you having me on and I appreciate the candor with which we we can speak so the first thing I I want to say is this people may differ with me but I'm not hiding anything.
	There was I'm telling you things as I understand them.
	If I saw things the same way you did I I'd shout along with you.
	Okay so I'm I'm not I'm nobody's agent I get in trouble for my stands day and night.
	I had no clue when I first addressed the the Noahide thing on the air that that I was that that was directly offending you and Stephen Ben Noon and others that were listening to you.
	I had no clue other I wasn't going out of my way to mock you but bottom line even if people differ with me they differ based on the fact that I sincerely believe what I'm telling you can think I'm crazy or stupid but I I'm telling it like it is I have no agenda I'm not supported by anybody except Christians that that believe in our ministry and help us and pray for us.
	The second thing is I know that you say that when you come against the Noah High laws and expose them, that it's not anti-Semitic or it doesn't stir anti-Semitism.
	But if you look at comments to your YouTube videos, and I haven't watched this one, looked at it today, but I imagine there's going to be a lot of Jew hatred expressed in those comments.
	I just wonder how, if you don't mind me asking you this question, because it's your show, how do you feel about that, that it seems to stir up a lot of anti-Semitic just jokingly?
	general Jew hating sentiments.
	Well I think I think just starting the the conversation at their Jew hating isn't the right place to start.
	I think these people are upset with all of the anti-Gentile anti-America anti-Christian stuff that they've been seeing and that's their reaction to that.
	And of course online comments there's gonna be a lot of garbage a lot of crazy people you know there might be more videos online saying that I'm a secret massad agent than you so you know I get a lot of crap too and I'm not even Jewish.
	I'm sure you do.
	Okay.
	I appreciate your perspective.
	Thanks for letting me ask you.
	Yeah.
	And obviously there are some people that are just – I mean it's very rare that people's comments are based on just some hate that just comes from the inside.
	It's stuff that they've learned that they're upset about and just to dismiss it as hate, hate speech.
	I'm sure you don't go along with the communist hate speech type of shutdown.
	Oh, God forbid.
	That's why I stand with Jordan Peterson against the trans activism and you have to call Bruce.
	Jenner she you know or if you dead name someone you're gonna get banned from Twitter.
	I get in trouble for that all all the time.
	But to be clear I was not making a blanket statement that everyone making a comment is a Jew hater or is simply blindly hating Jews.
	And let's say fair enough that you're not responsible for all your YouTube comments.
	I I block I block and and take down as many comments as I see that are that are like out over the line.
	I I definitely do that too.
	I don't get them all, but I do I do try to keep it clean and uh respectful and not uh over incendiary or inflammatory or anything like that.
	Um if you don't mind a personal question, not about you, but about me.
	In your heart, I want you to be totally honest with me.
	Do you think that I'm some con artist secretly trying to support this Noah Hyde thing and pull the wool over people's eyes?
	Or do you believe at face value what I'm telling you is this is sincerely what I understand to be true.
	I I had some suspicions that maybe you weren't being sincere and you were like uh a fake Christian that was here to kind of you know minimize the the Noahide laws and to be pro-Zionist, but doing more uh research into your debates, I think that you are sincere and you speak uh what you what's on your mind.
	Okay, great.
	So again, you can think I'm wrong or misinformed or naive.
	I have no problem with that.
	But that's I appreciate that because what you see is what you get with me.
	And and again, even in the midst of our differences, because I haven't gone through all your stuff, I very much understand where you're coming from much more, which is very helpful to me and help and helps me to respond to people with better understanding of where they might be coming from.
	So this has been very helpful for me as well.
	Just want to be on the record for saying that.
	I think it's helpful for a lot of the audience too, because they see that you you kind of do uh have some common ground and concede and see some of the risks that that my audience is uh worried about.
	Yeah, again, I I don't share the worry, but I I do understand what's coming from.
	And and if your concerns, and look, and again, we share we do share a lot of concerns, and and we we do have a lot of common ground as well.
	So that's always good to build on.
	And of course, I'll I'll get the haters that I was on your show, you'll get the haters that I was on, but we have to have these conversations, man.
	If if we don't, we just demonize each other and believe falsehoods about each other.
	So let's let's put the evidence on the table.
	Let's listen to each other, influence each other as best as we can, and then we we inform our audiences accordingly.
	That's the best any of us can do.
	Okay, well, one more thing about the charismatic uh movement, and and this is something that I found uh a little disturbing, and that is these uh these faith healers.
	And I saw in one of your videos that you were like that you wanted to distance yourself from the speaking in tongues a little bit and distance yourself from the faith healers because that you know you're more scholarly, and that's kind of you know, people think it is like quacky.
	But this guy Todd Bentley, it seems like such a charlatan con man.
	And I want to know how did you get appointed to oversee his uh scandal?
	Yeah, that's okay.
	Number one, Todd Bentley is absolutely not representative of the charismatic movement.
	You will find very, very, very few major charismatic leaders who support his ministry today.
	That's that's the first thing.
	I have been publicly on record against his ministry for over a decade.
	But isn't that just because of his affair?
	It seems like your problem is more with his affair and not his, you know, the the Morning Star Church and Rick Joyner and all of this.
	They're raising money preying on the desperate and the sick and exploiting them and giving them false hope.
	And I think it's just disgusting, these faith healers that go, well, you know, they oh blah, and they go into convulsions and they say you're healed, and then they raise money.
	I think instead of going after true news and people as anti-Semites, you should be condemning those type of people and not you know friends in the same circles, and you know, I I hope, I hope that the investigation finds that in fact I think the investigation should be over.
	Who cares what he did with his wife?
	He should be disqualified from being uh anywhere near a church with this.
	I mean, it's black magic sorcery at best, and at worst, he's a charlatan con man, and he's literally a convict.
	Right.
	So let me say let me say a few things.
	Because of the role I have, everyone knows that I opposed his ministry for years.
	And I've I've had major differences with alleged third heaven visits and revelation he's received, etc.
	But I haven't followed his ministry.
	I rejected it years ago.
	I haven't I haven't followed it.
	I haven't been a supporter of it in any way when I've asked public when I'm asked publicly about it, I said I don't stand with his ministry.
	So I haven't haven't followed it to see what else someone else might say is wrong.
	What happened is because I I've written whole books.
	When you say, you know, I shouldn't go after uh, you know, your network.
	I don't I don't think I have a single video where I play clips from you and differ with you, right?
	Not me.
	No, not me.
	Right.
	I I have and again when I answered the Noah Hyde Law question the way I did, I didn't even know.
	I know you have a big following, okay?
	Your your viewing audience right now is is a lot bigger than I get for my daily radio show.
	All right, a lot, lot bigger.
	So there's a great audience.
	But I didn't know I didn't know you existed.
	I don't I don't mean that in any insulting way.
	I I I'm sure that you again you have a good following.
	I wasn't aware of you at that point either.
	Okay, God, so it's a big world.
	I didn't know who Stephen Ben Noon was.
	I didn't know any of it.
	So I had no clue that I had just stirred up a horror's nest with my answer, you know, and that that it was taken as a direct slap in your face and slap in Steve's face and giant.
	I don't think we took it like that.
	We just thought, like, whoa, why is this guy trying to out here saying that there's nothing to worry about?
	Everybody thought that was suspicious.
	Got it, got it.
	And again, from my viewpoint, like, what is everyone talking about?
	Because I've I've known about these, I didn't know about them growing up because it wasn't religious enough.
	But for decades I've heard about it.
	It was the most benign thing.
	You know, so anyway, but we we've been we've been through that ground.
	But I've written whole books on issues in the charismatic movement, playing with holy fire, what happened to whatever happened to the power of God.
	So whole books addressing errors and abuses.
	And I pray for sick people to be healed, and I have friends with gifts of healing that see miracles happen, and none of them, none of them, none of them exploit people.
	None of them do this in a manipulative way for money.
	And all of them have a broken heart for those who aren't healed and carry a burden for those who aren't healed, and and will never ever say to a sick person, you're sick because you don't have enough faith.
	It would never ever say that.
	So you have these caricatures, these abuses, these people who have been corrupt, and some of them haven't ended up in jail for their corruption.
	Yeah.
	Uh and and I'm glad that that's happened.
	I I grieve because it makes the the church look bad or charismatic movement look bad, but I've addressed these.
	I and and to me it's not a matter of being more scholarly.
	I I tell you I speak in tongues every day.
	I gladly pray for the sick.
	But any anything that is manipulative to use a gift of God to generate money, especially to generate money for personal interest, is profoundly evil in God's sight.
	But what happened with the Todd Bentley thing, uh, someone published a list of scores of allegations against Todd Bentley, uh immoral behavior, drunkenness, sexting, things like that.
	It exploded online, became this who said it's this gossip thing, and and the the fellow who posted it meant well.
	In other words, he felt this has to get out.
	There's all this corruption.
	He felt no leaders were listening to him.
	That's how he had to do it.
	So people began to come to me and said, Dr. Brown, you're respected in the charismatic movement.
	You know, you got tough skin.
	Why don't you oversee this?
	I said, I can't, because I've already come against his ministry.
	I said, I so what we did is we appointed five people to serve as like judges to review the evidence, whether Todd Bentley participates with us or not, he said he's out of the process.
	That's his business.
	We hired an investigator who is just about, in fact, later this week I'm issuing another statement, just about finished investigating the charges, will present the evidence to the panel, and then the panel will simply say, We do not believe he should be in ministry for XYZ reasons, or he's being falsely accused.
	And my role is just to oversee that it happens fairly.
	So I can't be one of the judges because I I made judgment years ago.
	But just for your own understanding, Todd Bentley is not representative of the charismatic movement.
	His teaching, his style of ministry, uh the the bad reports associated with him over the years, he is not representative of the larger charismatic movement, which is maybe about 600 million people worldwide, and as some of the finest, most devoted Christians that I know on the planet.
	People working with the poor, people fighting human trafficking, people building hospitals, people starting schools in unreached areas doing a lot of people.
	Dr. Brown, how how common in the charismatic movement is this uh the faith healer preacher where it's like you know, people are shaking and healing uh the the cripples and stuff.
	Is this a common thing?
	Because it's not Todd Bentley that that I'm worried about or his his scandal, it's it's any of the preachers who claim that they have the power of God to heal people and are raising money on that on that promise, essentially.
	That's where I see a problem.
	That's a uh that would be a massive problem.
	No, I mean it is, right?
	That this occurs a lot.
	I I've seen in one of your interviews you talked about a lot of these charlatans who are doing this.
	Yeah, but that again, that's fringe.
	That that the people that pray for the sick do that as part of their ministry.
	In other words, it's if if only God heals.
	No one can make it happen.
	No one has the ability to snap your finger and make it happen.
	Only God heals.
	And even when we pray for the sick, some are healed and and others are not, and we understand that.
	But sickness is a terrible thing.
	And if if you could pray for someone that was dying of cancer and they were healed, that's a beautiful thing.
	But I don't know anyone with major ministries that do this that does it to raise money.
	What they do is they they raise money to reach people, they raise money to go overseas and preach and serve, because it takes money to do that.
	But the idea of pay me, and if you pay me, I'll prophesy to you or I'll heal you, that's completely corrupt.
	That's of the devil.
	That is one of the foulest things on the planet, but it's absolutely marginal.
	Those and look, whether someone shakes or not, I mean no problem.
	God's very powerful, you know.
	Uh if the wind can shake you, God's presence can shake you.
	I watched this documentary on I think Lakeview or Todd Bentley's church.
	Is I mean, it's a lot of it is so ridiculous.
	These people are just acting, they're going, they they want it so hard, they're so desperate for some kind type of miracle that they go along with these things.
	Yeah, I mean, if you if you want to do some read some stuff from people that are right on the front lines praying for the sick and documenting it, you know, one of my friends wrote his doctoral dissertation on prayer for people with metal implants and what the results were.
	There are uh tests uh in published in peer-reviewed journals where people who were blind or deaf were prayed for, and then their hearing and seeing was measured before and after.
	So I'll I'll send you a couple of links from some things that you'll find interesting as a journalist.
	In fact, one one book in particular by a journalist that I think you'll find really interesting because he presents both both viewpoints.
	He starts with interviewing an atheist and so on.
	But just for your information, if you're new to this, the Todd Bentley phenomenon is a complete outlier.
	Uh absolutely fringe in terms of the norm of what's out there.
	You still might be uncomfortable in a charismatic service, or where we're praying for people and and and they're shaking or things like that.
	But what we care about is people's lives being changed.
	In other words, the shaking, the falling is completely secondary.
	If you're sick, we want to see you healed.
	If you're bound by pornography or drug addiction, we want to see you set free.
	That's the goal.
	Shaking, falling, is that's all secondary.
	But raising money off of it is a completely corrupt, totally ugly practice.
	And it's I I there's not I work with a lot of the top leaders in the world.
	Not a one of them would go anywhere near that with a 10-foot pole.
	Good.
	I'm I'm glad to hear you uh condemn those uh uh snake oil salesmen and and con men that are out there praying on uh the desperate and making victims of the sick and wick weak people.
	Um something else that I saw that came up, you'll this will probably be an easy answer, but this guy Rick Joyner, who's associated with him, I don't know if he's one of your mutual friends.
	He he says he's a knight of Malta in his church is I've already been suspicious of John Hagee being a Freemason because he's got the cornerstone church, and you know about the cornerstone ceremony is a free mate Freemasonic thing, just like I got Well, you know, it's in the Bible that Jesus is the cornerstone.
	That too, and that's that's the other question is it's morning star Church, and I looked up Morning Star in the Bible, and that's Jesus or Lucifer.
	So my question is are you a Freemason?
	And do you know any Freemasons?
	No, no, that's not my back.
	No, not a Freemasons.
	You don't know any Freemasons?
	Um, if they're none of my colleagues are Freemasons.
	I mean, it's so outside of my world, outside of any interaction I've ever had.
	Uh I know the thing about Rick, I've heard these what uh knights of the Island of Malta or something like that.
	Malta, yeah.
	So Rick Rick and I have very serious differences about Todd Bentley.
	And and uh right now we're in the midst of those serious differences.
	Uh he and I at present we've been friends of mutual areas of of uh that where we have harmony and and and share certain views over Todd, we've had a very serious clash indifference, whether it goes back uh uh ten years or more.
	But I I never asked him about the this night thing, whatever it is.
	I guess I should at some point.
	Uh but Freemason, no, I don't I don't know any Freemasons.
	I imagine um they're I don't know.
	I don't know any serious Christian that's a Freemason, because as far as I understand, that's it's totally contradictory.
	Yes, Freemason, you you know, so as far as so all the leaders I work with, none of their Freemasons, but I don't know many that came out of Masonry.
	I know a few over the years that used to be Masons and told me about the secret rights and practices, but this is something I'm no experience in as for as for Morningstar, it's a deception where where Satan wants to claim that he's the bright morning star, Hillel benchar, the shining one Son of the Dawn in Isaiah 14.
	But Jesus is the only one associated as as Morningstar.
	That's that's the purpose of a name like that, or cornerstone that Jesus is the chief cornerstone.
	Um I would honestly say uh that track, like associated that with Masonry or Morningstar with Lucifer, that that's that's uh a rabbit trail to avoid.
	But the the the Knights of Alam the Malta thing, whatever with Rick, I gotta ask you about it because it is a peculiar thing.
	People have asked me, and I just never bothered to ask him.
	But that's not Masons, right?
	That's a separate thing.
	Yeah, I believe that's a separate thing.
	So so I agree with you that uh Freemasonry and Christianity uh can't go together, don't jive.
	Uh look at this from 1912.
	Solomon's Temple, scheme of Freemasons and Opinions of Jews on Rebuilding the Temple.
	And uh, you know, the Freemasons are Freemasonry is based on Kabbalah.
	Actually, the 21st degree is called a Noahide, and they're all about rebuilding the temple as as well.
	So it seems like there's some type of uh Freemasonic Jewish conspiracy kind of working towards the same goal of uh having this one this Zionist new world order, the way I look at it.
	Yeah, I have to I I know very, very little about about mace Freemasons and Masonry.
	People have told me over the years I need to learn more about it, and it's really important and look at the history of America and look at the architecture in Washington, DC, and look at our currency, you know, our bills and things like that.
	But honestly, I know very, very little.
	It's it's not useful for me to comment because I know very, very little about it, except that I have zero connection.
	There's there's I don't even if I wanted to ask about masonry, I'd have to go to websites because I don't know anyone that's a close friend of mine that was a mason.
	It's just is it parts of America more that people are like into it more and certain cultures?
	I don't know.
	I don't personally know any either, but okay.
	But um Can I can I ask you a question though?
	Are you uh are you a Mason?
	No.
	I'm accused that I'm accused of being a Mason.
	I've been accused before, but no, I'm not.
	Okay.
	I I mean I was just joking and asking that.
	I'll give you the secret handshake later.
	Okay, I do know it's the Hamas Charter that that Masons are controlled by by the Jews in Israel, that that's in the Hamas Charter.
	But I don't know.
	You know, there's the the um the symbolism that Rothschild built the Supreme Court in Israel, and they have that the uh the pyramid there with the all-seeing eye that's on that's similar to Honor Money.
	Yeah, there's there's also uh Venai Breth is kind of uh loosely associated with it, a secret society as well.
	And um there's yeah, look up uh Freemasonry in uh in Israel.
	Tex Mars did a good documentary on that years ago.
	And and you know, I think you'd be interested in some of my videos.
	You should watch, I'll I'll have to send you a few.
	Yeah, send the links, yeah.
	And and uh I I definitely take serious issue with with Tex Mars and you just mentioned, but but that's another surprised.
	Yeah, that's that's another subject.
	But again, Adam, just look at the clock here.
	Yep.
	I appreciate you giving me this much time.
	But again, if you have my email now directly, if you ever have, if you hear me say something, if you have a question, feel free to ask me.
	Because again, what you see is what you get.
	Where we differ, we differ.
	And, you know, where we agree, where we agree.
	But I believe that you sincerely see things the way you do and that based on your research, these are your sincerely held conclusions.
	because of which you have great concern about Jewish world domination that's my takeaway from this that that's just like I asked you about your how you viewed my position that's that's how I understand you the more we talk and hear things okay I see where you're coming from despite our differences so that's just so you know uh that's where I'm coming from so if someone asks me about you on the air it's in that spirit that I'll respond.
	And the very fact that we had the dialogue means that that I'm beholden to you because you open the door for this in a fair setting.
	Now you may I'd be totally shocked if after this you put up a series of videos mocking me and and mocking my character and all that but if you put up a series of videos here's where I believe Dr. Brown's wrong that that wouldn't phase me at all that would be okay I understand that but if you then turned away from the way you're presenting yourself now and you were just being nice because I'm on the air and then I see your true colors that would be a disappointment.
	But that's honestly not what I expect.
	Well, if you followed my channel, you'd know that that's not what I'm about.
	And I appreciate you taking the time and being open for debate.
	Maybe do another one again.
	I know Stephen Bendinoon wants to have a talk with you.
	And, you know, you're so open to debate.
	I wanted to – oh, something else I wanted to say, and then I'll let you go because I know you're a few hours ahead of me.
	That you were never avoiding debate at any time.
	As soon as you heard that we had some differences, you were like, you invited me on.
	I was the one that hesitated.
	else would be better to do it first and uh so just to I was never saying oh Brown's afraid to debate me I never was saying anything like that.
	And um but I did want to have my friend Christopher John Birkness join and uh and you said you didn't want to debate because you think he's not credible but you know he thinks you're not credible in some ways so that's what the debate was supposed to be about so maybe we could do that at some time as sometime as well.
	Yeah and and I appreciate you you having me on with without him and it it's I think it's better though for us to just have this interchange.
	And I tonight we we both present our abuse it's not a debate in that I'm aggressively trying to tear down what you're saying or you're aggressively trying to tear down what I'm saying but it it's a it's an honest dialogue which is very fruitful.
	And I I don't want to say anything uh about Christopher with it not being here in terms of of differences but perhaps there'll be a future time where you facilitate it and the two of us actually have a debate on your air uh I'm I'm open to that possibility not sure about it but I'm open to that possibility but at least we've had our dialogue and I I always try to do it when I find out someone differs I invite them on my show or if they have a platform that's substantial volunteer to go on theirs for this very purpose at least let's put things out and people decide what they decide.
	I agree fantastic.
	All right Dr. Brown um so we're we're best place for people to to find you let's get your uh your plugs up here before we can uh wrap it up sure I love this photo I love I was gonna ask you for a rocker photo I was I was imagining I would uh see the mustache still but no no that was as I was growing my hair long I I never got a shot like right before I cut it and you know but yeah that that was me and my my my drug abusing days growing my hair out and
	influenced by the Jimmy Hendrixes and Led Zeppelins of the day.
	But if folks go to askdr brown dot org ask dr brown dot org they'll get links to thousands of articles I've written and if you have a conservative audience they'll agree with a ton of what I've written they'll find a lot of resources for reaching Jewish people with the gospel of Jesus and then they can connect with me on Facebook on Twitter on YouTube all there at the S Dr Brown channel Ask DR Brown.org so connect with us on social media and whether you agree or disagree give me a listen anyway.
	And call into the show if you you uh if you want to comment on the debate, your your lines are always open for calls, right?
	Yeah, and in fact, tomorrow is uh the the Thursday show is a Jewish focus, thoroughly Jewish Thursday, 866-348-7884.
	So if they go to YouTube, SKDR Brown from three to four in the afternoon, uh I'll be talking to my friend John Burness, but also taking calls if you want to call in, and then Friday it's open for anything whatsoever.
	And then most days we try to open the phones, but by all means, call in, give your thoughts.
	And if Adam raised things to you and you feel Dr. Brown, you didn't answer that sufficiently, and I want to challenge you further.
	Please, please.
	I wish, Adam, that one one thousandth of the people who attack me online would call so we could actually talk.
	So again, thank you for having me on in the totally fair, gracious format.
	I really appreciate it.
	It means a lot to me, Adam.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	I enjoyed it, and I think it was productive.
	All right.
	So we will you can stay on the line.
	I'll I'll close it out here.
	Um thank you, everybody, for watching.
	Let us know what you think in the comments.
	Who uh who you think won the debate.
	No, just kidding.
	If I uh if it's questions I should have asked, your comments, thoughts, like, share, subscribe, and I'll see you guys in the next one.

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