Andrew Klavan and Mike Slater dissect pornography's cultural infiltration, contrasting secular critiques of traditional family with the destructive nature of addiction rooted in selfishness. Slater shares his recovery through Christian community, rejecting toxic masculinity for selfless character modeled by Proverbs 31 and Hugh Hefner's tragedy. They debate why religious arguments often fail compared to scientific warnings, concluding that aligning people with beauty reveals the transcendent. Ultimately, referencing John Adams, they assert that biblical sexual morality is essential for preserving a republic and society. [Automatically generated summary]
Maybe in someone's evolution of Christianity, it can start off with Christianity works, which is like, oh, this is a good operating system for a culture.
The next level is like, Christianity is good.
And that's like, oh, there's moral precepts that are nice.
And then it's the next level is Christianity is true.
Hey everyone, it's Andrew Klavan with this week's interview with Mike Slater.
If you don't know Mike Slater, he is the host of the Politics by Faith podcast, which is a really interesting podcast, which is just what it says.
It's talking about politics, the nexus of politics and faith.
He's also got a YouTube channel, youtube.com slash at politics by faith.
And I wanted to speak to him for a very specific reason, and I think I'm going to bring him on so I can tell him what it is.
Mike, it's good to see you.
How are you doing?
What are we talking about today?
What am I doing here?
I just, I'm sorry we had to use such rough tactics to drag you over to the show, but I appreciate it.
Let me interject here, Mr. Clavin, if I may.
You have been kind enough to come on my show a couple of times, and it's always a great honor.
So to be asked, it's an honor to talk to interview you.
So to be interviewed by you, to come on your show, it's a wonderful honor.
I truly mean that.
Thank you for everything you've done and your son as well.
I always enjoy listening to and talking to your son, too.
That is really kind of you.
Thank you very much.
I appreciate it.
And I wouldn't come on if I didn't think the show was terrific, which it is.
But here is what I wanted to talk to you about.
I'm reading a book called Pornocracy.
And it's a British book.
And it is about the pornography business and how it has taken over England and basically infiltrated schools, infiltrated the government so that people won't attack pornography and all this.
And it's just destroying, you know, you know what it is.
It's destroying people's lives.
It's like having an open sewage tube just running out into the culture.
And here's what struck me about this book.
This book is written by people, I think, who would disagree with you and me about every single thing except for this.
They are absolutely on board.
They're indistinguishable from us about what pornography does to people, the effects it has.
But in their philosophy, they are radical feminists.
The people they quote make, you know, the skin on the back of my neck just kind of break out in a rash just listening to them.
So here's what I want to talk about.
Is there something that makes them more accessible than people who have faith and talk about faith?
And this is, so let's just start with pornography itself.
This seems to me like a sort of apocalyptic level destruction, pornography.
Am I hysterical about that?
Am I just disagree with that word at all?
It's wonderful whenever science catches up to the Bible.
Yeah.
It keeps running as fast as it can, yeah.
Whenever secularists come around to things that we've been talking about forever.
The word porneia is in the Bible.
It's in the New Testament 25 times.
That's how we get the word pornography, of course.
It is insidious.
It's wicked.
It's as bad as it could possibly.
I use the word apocalyptic, right?
I think that's fair.
I'm not only concerned with the disgustingness of the depravity of the most egregious examples of it, but I think maybe what this book, which I haven't read, is getting at is the pervasiveness of it as well.
And how embraced it has been.
I used, when I was growing up, and I can tell my pornography testimony too, if we have some time, but I used to laugh at the church ladies who criticized Elvis, right?
Oh, they said we can't have Elvis shaking his hips because it's terrible and it's awful.
I was like, oh, you church, you Christians.
Before I was a Christian, oh, you prudish Christian, whatever.
Man, those church ladies were right.
They were onto something.
That slippery slope was real.
And now it's everywhere.
I heard the story and I've looked it up and everything I've come across that this is true is that the bikini, the French gentleman who came up with the bikini in 1946, he couldn't find a model who would model it, who would be photographed in it.
He had to go to a strip club.
He had to find a stripper in order to do it.
And even then, that bikini in 1946, it didn't take off in America for another about 20 years until it was in the 60s.
But even that bikini, by today's standards, wasn't even that bikini-y.
We're way worse now.
I used to live in San Diego until just a couple of years ago, now a fellow Nashville Ian.
But when you walk away on the beach of San Diego, there are children, 13, 14-year-old girls, younger, and just horrific.
Church ladies who were upset with Elvis would be appalled at where we have since become.
And I'm reminded of, it was a C.S. Lewis.
I forget where he wrote about this, but he talked about, and correct me if I'm wrong with this, Mr. Claven, but he talked about how if you went to like a new land that you've never been to before, and there was someone up on stage who brought out in this seductive way, you know what I'm saying?
They brought out like this platter and it was covered up and they slowly, seductively opened up the platter and the crowd was drooling and they were all, you'd be like, and then they opened it up and it was bacon.
You'd be like, wow, these people are starving to death.
They're absolutely starving that they would drool over this bacon.
They said they have a dysfunctional problem.
Totally.
Look, what's wrong with these people?
And that's us with sex, but it's not because we're sex starved.
It's because we're sex gorged.
Yeah.
You know, you know, it's interesting you mentioned Elvis because there's this very famous musical called Bye-bye Birdie, which is usually presented as this kind of romp.
But if you watch the original, it is an absolute attack on this kind of sexualized rock and roll.
And it's done with a complete smile and complete wonderful songs and all this stuff.
But basically what it's saying is people have sold out to television and they've sold their values to be on TV.
Imagine them going to a Sabrina Carpenter.
Yes.
I mean, Sabrina Carpenter, you see these Disney girls and my heart breaks for them.
Many of them, I don't know what the ratio is of how much they're a part of it or taken by it.
I don't quite know.
But when I first heard Sabrina Carpenter's song, Tears, I think she performed it at something, like the MTV, whatever.
And you're like, oh, tears, it's about a break.
I don't know.
It's about her being sad.
It's like a real emotional song.
I don't know if you've ever read the lyrics or heard the lyrics.
I don't even know how graphic I can get it.
Maybe I'll just encourage everyone to maybe give it a Google.
It's as raunchy and disgusting.
And I would say more insidious.
Like we don't engage any of this pop culture stuff in our house.
Our kids are three, six, eight, and nine.
So we don't engage any of this stuff.
But I could see how in a different world, maybe I would not let Cardi be into the Slater home.
But maybe I would let this Disney girl.
You know, dancing around.
Her songs are just as horrific.
So you said, I don't want to intrude, but you said you had a porn testimony.
Yeah.
So you know what you're talking about.
Oh, sure.
So I was addicted to pornography for, geez, I don't even know when I started, just like most men.
And it was up until, and oh, geez, you make every excuse in the book.
I remember, I've never told this, Andrew.
It was so depraved that your mind tells you whatever it takes to justify it.
Whereas in the Bible, where it says, like, the people's hearts are so full of wickedness and evil and greed and depravity and murder, evil strife, deceit.
It was like, it was like, like, pornography is all those things.
And there's so much deceit that is, I was a swimmer growing up in college.
And, and it's like, well, you have to do it before you before your race because it gets you relaxed or what, whatever deceit Satan tells you.
There's tons of them, tons of excuses for one's sin.
Um, so I was addicted to pornography up until I got engaged.
And it was, I wasn't a Christian yet.
I was becoming one.
And we were in a Bible study with some guys and we talked about it.
And I was living with my fiancé at the time and talked about it with the guys.
And they convicted me.
And they said, you got to, you got to knock it off.
First, you got to move out with your fiancé.
You got to move out until you get married.
And you have to knock it off with pornography straight on.
So I talked to my wife about with the help of our church and the men and the women in the church.
I told my wife about it.
And I'll never forget the look that she gave me.
She got up.
Gosh, I haven't thought about this forever.
She got up from where we were and she moved away to the other side of the room.
And I said, she moved away.
And she looked at me with such hurt and pain.
And it was horrible.
And my friend, this is before that moment when I was still not quite in or whatever into the into deciding not to do it.
He said, Slater, it's off the table.
And I said, Yeah, yeah.
He goes, No, it's off the table watching pornography.
It's off the table.
I remember exactly where I was.
He had to tell it to me probably 20 times.
It's off the table before I was finally like, oh, yeah, it's off the table.
It's not even an option.
Get it out of here.
So I'm a little not chronological here, but I had the conviction.
My Christian brothers convicted me with it.
The word of God did, but they, through them, then it took me like he had to tell me 20 times.
It's off the table.
Then with the help of the church, worked, talked to my wife.
I wasn't sure if we were going to get married for a minute, but because of the men and women, it was so perfectly done.
She forgave.
We moved on.
And for a while, felt the effects of that betrayal to my wife still.
And I would advise every young man who listens to this show that you are betraying your future wife and it's affecting her and it's affecting you.
It's affecting your heart.
Physically, it's affecting your sex life, your future sex life.
But emotionally and spiritually, it's affecting your relationship and your marriage.
Every time you engage, it's causing problems.
And that's hard as in our culture today where, you know, it's me now, especially with something like this, where it's all selfish.
That's all it is.
It's, I want to be pleasure now in this moment.
And I want this person on the screen to tell me that I'm amazing and I'm the most perfect, amazing man.
So the whole thing is rooted in selfishness.
So it's hard to speak to that culture that's so embedded in that, that, hey, what you're doing now is going to have major ramifications in the future to you and someone else that you don't may not know yet.
It's a hard argument, but I'm here to say it's the truth.
So I get this letter all the time.
How do I stop?
And I always say the thing, the way to stop is to stop.
You know, you just stop.
It's off the table.
Because people keep saying, I'm struggling with porn addiction.
I say, stop struggling with porn addiction and stop watching porn and see if that helps.
But did you, did you have a system?
Did you have a mental system?
Is there?
Yeah, I can share a couple of things.
First of all, I love what you said.
I'm struggling with porn addiction.
That's even, I've heard more silly euphemisms that people use, right?
It's like, oh, I'm struggling with lust or something like that.
It's like, just say the word.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
You're watching pornography and you're masturbating and you shouldn't be doing like, let's, let's be real about what we're doing.
So all that euphemism is a way to hide.
And Satan loves that.
Yeah, this is, let me give you like the secular, the secular answers.
Maybe like people in your book maybe would have liked this.
I think you have to make it disgusting or you have to recognize how disgusting it is.
You have to have a disgust, a revulsion of it.
And you can find that in many different ways.
You can highlight like the gayness of it or the like what it's doing to that, the victim, like the girl, and how it's destroying her soul, her life.
So you just like, you should feel like make it recognize how dirty it is.
And once you get that disgust in it, you're like, oh, because everyone does it in the dark.
Yeah.
And your mind shuts off.
Like, I mean, I've, I've looked at the point in your mind, starts to think, I'm not really here.
It's like in another place, basically.
It's not really me doing it.
It's like some other person somehow, you know?
So really weird dissociation.
The Disgust Required For Change00:02:36
Totally.
Yeah, of course.
So you, because you would need to do that.
Right.
To do it, to be a part of this.
You would need to disassociate.
So, I mean, that's my secular advice.
If I was talking to a young man, it's like, oh, this is disgusting.
You need to know how disgusting this is.
And you're a part of this disgusting thing.
And you would never do it in like the living room with your family.
It's like, who are you as a man?
And those are probably other secular things about like, what beast are you feeding inside of you or something like that, right?
Sisterly?
But spiritually, it's, it's, you just have to read the Bible.
I remember because I was addicted and I stopped and haven't done it since we got married 13 years ago, something like that.
But it definitely had affected our sex life.
And I remember talking to my mentor in the church, Rick.
And I called Rick and I was driving.
I said, Rick, you know, we're having, we're having problems.
And I told him the problems and he said, you need to read your Bible more.
And I was like, no, Rick, you don't understand.
We're having problems.
And he goes, you need to read your Bible.
And I said, Rick, I was driving down the street, 163 and San.
I said, Rick, you don't, you're not listening to me.
I'm we're having, and he goes, you need to read your Bible more.
And I was like, all right, whatever, man.
But that's the answer.
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You gave your reaction to the church ladies and their Elvis condemnation.
And I feel this all the time.
I mean, I read when I was on the verge of a conversion, I read C.S. Lewis for the first time and was loving mere Christianity, just thinking, what a great book.
What a brilliant mind.
And then he got to the part where he said, no sex except in marriage.
And I thought, what a prissy little British British pantsy.
And why is it that that relationship, that expression, that seeing it through a godly perspective, a spiritual perspective, is that inherently less convincing than some scientific study that says, you know, this makes men impotent.
It makes, you know, it makes young men impotent, which is like, you know, a horrible, a horrible idea.
It leads you, according to this book, which I'm sure I totally believe, it leads you to look at child pornography, even if you've never desired a child.
Not everybody, but certain people.
It leads you down into violence, which is what I've experienced.
You start to look at really harsh stuff.
You know, why is it, is it more convincing to talk about scientific evidence than it is to say this is ripping your soul to shreds?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, great question.
Bestiality, throw bestiality in there as well.
Darkest appraisation, right?
That's in the Bible.
It's in the Bible because people did it.
Yeah, so it's tricky.
So we live in a culture that doesn't believe in the soul.
Yeah.
I agree with that.
Of course, it's going to be a tough argument that this is ripping apart your or a stranger's soul.
Who cares about that person?
I was talking to, this is many years ago, eight years ago.
I was talking to the world-renowned psychologist.
And I asked him about the soul.
I said, what does this do to the soul?
And he said, well, we psychologists, we don't believe in the soul.
I said, I'm pretty sure the word psychology means study of the soul.
Is it psychology that study the soul?
Or what are the words?
The soul of the self.
Literally means study of the soul.
And this foremost expert is like, we don't believe in the soul.
It's like, oh, we've, you've strayed from the original science here that we were supposed to be studying.
So it's a tough argument to make, but I guess my long-term plan, and your son would agree with this, is to align people's souls more with beauty.
And I think if you get people more aligned with beauty, then I think you can't end up anywhere else other than recognizing that there is something transcendent that leads one to the soul.
I heard this formula once before, and I don't know who said it.
I wish I could compare it to one, but it was something like maybe in someone's evolution of Christianity, it can start off with Christianity works, which is like, oh, this is a good operating system for a culture.
Maybe like even like John Cleese is coming around to that, the British comedian.
Is he really?
I didn't know it.
I didn't know that.
Yeah, he had some tweets recently criticizing Islam.
And he's like, hey, we're a Christian nation, actually, and we operate in this way.
So it's like, oh, like you recognize that Christianity works.
And then it's the next level is like Christianity is good.
And that's like, oh, there's moral precepts that are nice.
And it's going to, and then it's, the next level is Christianity is true.
And it's like, oh, there's a risen Christ who's died for our sins.
And there's like an evolution along that way.
So maybe there's something parallel to that, which is like, oh, if we can get people to recognize that this thing over here is disgusting and ugly, here are things that are beautiful, whether it's beautiful buildings, beautiful art, a beautiful woman, a beautiful dress, beautiful dance, beautiful music.
Oh, wow.
Okay.
All right.
Well, wow, why is that beautiful?
Okay.
Well, now there's, maybe there's something else going on.
And then we can get into soul and then we can get into honoring beautiful things as opposed to being a part of rupturing and ugly things.
I know something one of my friends who's a, he's a pagan, I was talking to him about Taylor Swift.
I must have made some comment about how she's attractive or something.
I don't know.
And he goes, I don't think she's attracted.
He's 50 years old or he goes, I'm not attracted to girls.
I'm attracted to women.
I thought that was such an interesting thing.
And ever since then, really, it's been like a click of like, oh, like, yeah, like I'd arrested development.
I had like a stunted view of what was hot.
Yeah.
You know, like, oh, you need, you need Sabrina Carpenter's hot.
They're like, what?
Like, no, like, what are you talking about?
Like a woman is hot.
Yeah.
And attractive.
So I don't know.
I don't know if that answers your question, but I think generally, if we have a culture that's more aligned towards beauty, that's probably the best because this is the opposite of beauty.
It is.
And our culture is aligned to the opposite of beauty, intentionally.
I mean, the artists have actually renounced beauty and renounced the idea of beauty.
I wonder, you know, you talk a lot on your show about masculinity, about manhood and what that means.
And we've got men who are being fed by incredible sources like the New York Times, you know, the worst possible advice.
I love reading the New York Times advice column because it's kind of like take a nail and drive it into your head.
That makes things much better.
But, you know, they recommend having a thruple and having an open marriage.
I have never seen, I've known several open marriages.
I've never seen one that wasn't destroyed.
I mean, they just destroyed their marriage.
And yet, and yet, when you go and look at the church people, even I find it unappealing sometimes to have somebody say to me, you know, you're sinning and you've got to get away from this.
I guess talking about manhood, when they've got so many influencers like Andrew Tate, like people who really despise women and think that some kind of domineering domination of women is what manhood is all about.
What is the answer to that?
What is the Christian answer to that?
Okay.
All right.
I got a bunch of thoughts here.
Let me see what we can parse out here.
Okay.
Well, first of all, what is a woman that like an actual woman, like a desirable woman?
It's Proverbs 31.
Okay.
So everyone go through Proverbs 31 and we can chat about that.
You know, more precious than rubies.
All right.
So that's like the real, what a woman is.
What is what is a man?
And so what's so that we have men today in our culture today wants the, wants the quick and easy and wants the cheap version, is willing to take the cheap.
And that's pornography.
That's the cheap.
That's the immediate.
It's the instant, instant gratification.
So I would encourage every man to be a man who wants the real thing.
Your son and I often have talked about real life is better than fake life.
And because there's a lot, you know, we talked a lot about AI and the metaverse and all this stuff and this appeal towards fake life.
And pornography is fake life.
Real life is way, way harder.
Way harder.
A woman?
Yeah.
Like a real life woman?
Oh my goodness.
Way harder and infinitely better.
So do you want to be a cheap man who settles for slop?
Or do you want the real thing, man?
Because the real thing is glorious.
Real thing's amazing, but the real thing is going to require stuff out of you.
And it's going to require selflessness, first of all.
But that's Jesus, right?
Selfless.
If you do that, you'll be in a better place.
And it's also healthy.
So if you're watching point out for you unhealthy, so one of my, gosh, I haven't thought of this in a while.
I hope I get this right.
I think I got it right.
Who's the Playboy guy?
Heffer.
Heffer, of course.
Hugh Afn.
So, yeah, whatever.
You grow up, Playboy, Hugh Hafter.
He's, you know, the robes and the mansions and the parties and the Hugh Hefner died in squalor, filth and squalor.
Embarrassing details about his life, of course.
But his backstory, he was married, or excuse me, engaged, and then he went off to war, went off to World War II.
His wife cheated on him when he was away, came back, found out, and then we also learned that his mother never said, I love you.
They never hugged and he never said, I love you.
That'll do it too.
This guy, of course.
Of course he went on to live and view women the way he did the rest of his life.
So do you want to be like Hugh Hefner?
Really?
Like deep down at night?
Like that, like you really want to be that guy?
Ah, man, I don't think so.
Like, who do you want to be?
Properly aligned masculinity.
So we've heard a lot about toxic masculine now, right?
We know all about that.
And my argument is that there's no such thing as toxic masculinity because masculinity is a virtue.
And you can't have a toxic fruit.
Yeah, it's a good point, actually.
So you have the fruits of the spirit, right?
Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, judgment, and self-control.
You can't have toxic joy.
You can't have toxic peace.
There's no such thing.
And properly aligned masculinity is a virtue.
And if you're watching pornography, you're not masculine.
You're a wimp.
And I'm going to talk to myself, right?
You're a loser, man.
And you know it.
Everyone who does it knows it.
You've never done.
And you're like, oh, I'm a hero.
You know you're a total loser.
And I'm just, again, talking to myself back then, if I could come back and be like, oh, man, like, this ain't it.
This ain't it.
You're missing it.
You're missing what you're called for.
You're called for more.
And if you just stop doing this, and you can, you can just stop.
You stop doing it.
You'll be so much healthier, man.
One of the things that is so interesting about this book, pornography, and I've invited the authors to come on.
I don't know if they will.
I'd like to do a friendly, I would never do a hostile interview with them.
But one of the things that does, that really does get to me is they quote these radical feminists.
And the thing that makes the radical feminists radical is that they critique the very nature of the relationship between men and women.
So in other words, they think that it comes from some other place.
Like they have theories that women are just pretending to be feminine so men won't kill them.
I'm not making that up.
I just, you know, I may be phrasing it a little more humorously than they do, but that's basically what they're saying.
And you think like, well, if you're, if you're unpacking, if you're deconstructing the thing that gives most people the most happiness in their life, which is a relationship with somebody, a loving relationship, lifelong relationship with somebody, if you're deconstructing that, what are you leaving people besides pornography?
You know, then they complain when people follow pornography and treat women like garbage, which they do.
But it seems to me those are two sides of the same coin.
And that the feminist ethos, which belittles motherhood, which belittles homemaking, which belittles all the things that women traditionally have actually found their peace and joy in, what do you leave people?
And I just, I love art.
I love the arts and I watch everything.
I watch all kinds of things, no matter how bad they turn out to be.
I just love to consume stuff because it tells me so much about what's going on.
And what I see is this kind of sales of an emptiness, a kind of selling a sort of emptiness to people as the good life.
And I guess when I think about church, I don't see, I mean, I love going, I go to church every Sunday and it's very important to me and all this, but I don't think about church as the good life.
I think it's something that trains you toward the good life.
But I guess I'm just trying to solve this riddle.
I can't seem to solve this riddle of what it is when people start talking about God that makes the brain turn off, that makes people turn off from what's best for them.
Satan.
To put it simply, right?
Yeah, yeah.
And let me see if I can circle around because I want to solve that one.
Who are we?
You just mentioned feminists.
I'll just say a thing real quick.
My understanding is almost all these early feminists were anti-Christian.
Yes.
Explicitly.
Anti-Christian.
going back to like 20s um through the 60s and had major father wounds to use a psychological term right but but like abandoned by their father you know drunk fathers abusive fathers and again sort of like hugh hefner like yeah of course you're going to then you know advocate for these things that are that are toxic and and wrong so the feminist the feminist model is horrible and the the writer of sex in the city like the original writer who went the career route She's now, whatever, 68 and she has no kids or grandkids.
And she's like, oh, this is awful.
I've no one in my life.
Everyone's gone.
It's like, okay, feminists, like here, that's the path you're going in.
But I want to go back to your answer.
So are you asking why the Christian or biblical or church answer doesn't land on young people?
Young people or just anyone even.
I put young people in your mouth, I think.
No, yeah.
But it is, I think it's anyone, but young people especially.
What's the line?
To those who are being saved, it's folly.
Yeah.
Or to those who are being saved, it's the word of God, but to those who are not.
Here it is.
Here it is.
The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who is being saved, it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1.18.
Yeah.
So it's built into the system.
Yeah.
Gosh, I wish I could give an answer better than that.
Other than I think it's our job to create a culture where at least people can be swimming in something good and beautiful and true and at least help people to be pointed in a certain direction.
I don't know how much time we have, Andrew, do we have two minutes?
About a minute.
Yeah, two minutes.
Okay, I don't even have time.
Let me do it real quick.
I just, I came across this today.
I'm not even kidding.
There's a line that John Adams wrote.
He said, the Bible contains the most profound philosophy that has ever been conceived upon this earth.
And I've heard that line before, but I was researching that line, but I didn't know what he was talking about after that.
And if I can just encourage everyone to go Google the rest of that, he goes on and he talks about sexual morality.
He says, therefore, my dear fellow citizens of America, you must ask leave of your wives and daughters to preserve your republic.
Preserving The Republic Through Chastity00:01:10
He talks about purity and chastity in men and women.
He says, without national morality, a Republican government cannot be maintained.
And I can prove this by ransacking Greece, Rome, Judea, France, England, and Holland.
Amazingly, John Adams was writing about sexual morality and the ability for America to survive.
Here we are, 250 later.
And a guy who had a wonderful marriage and loved women and was very aware of his sexuality.
It is very interesting.
Mike Slater, he's the host of Politics by Faith podcast.
You should tune him in.
Has a YouTube channel, youtube.com slash at politics by faith.
Mike, it's really nice of you to come on.
It was really good talking to you.
I hope we'll get to do it again and come by your place.
I hope your audience was able to gather something from it.
And I really enjoyed this time.
Thank you.
Yeah, it's great talking to you.
Very interesting conversation.
I didn't actually know that he had been through that particular hell, but he had.
And it's very interesting to hear about it.
And as I keep telling people, the way to stop is to stop.
But it is nice to know that there is something to hold on to that is actually higher and better than that.
And I think Mike was talking about that really well.
We will continue talking on the Andrew Clavin Show on Fridays.