Matt Fradd, a philosopher and author of Jesus, Our Refuge and The Porn Myth, shares how faith transformed his cynicism into profound joy after worldly success left him empty. Skepticism about Christianity’s "too-good-to-be-true" claims stems from human nihilism, but surrendering control revealed God’s love as liberating—even amid the Church’s imperfections. As an Anglican Catholic, he trusts communal authority over individual reinterpretation, framing doubt as healthy curiosity rather than disbelief. Ultimately, his journey underscores how faith, rooted in humility and trust, offers deeper meaning than self-reliance or online dogmatism. [Automatically generated summary]
It's almost like Christianity isn't too hard to believe, but that it's too good because everything in my life has let me down.
So you come across this Christian message and you go, don't tell me that this could possibly satisfy me in some real degree because it's just, it's a gimmick.
You know, you become cynical.
Everything's a gimmick.
Nothing works.
Hey, everyone, it's Andrew Klavan with this week's interview with Matt Fradd.
And some of you may know Matt from his podcast, Pints with Aquinas.
He's the author of several books, actually, Jesus, Our Refuge, and the porn myth.
And he earned his undergraduate and graduate degrees in philosophy.
I did not know this, from Holy Apostles College and Seminary, which awarded him an honorary doctorate.
But now he's sold out to the Jews.
What can I tell you?
He came to the Daily Wire.
We didn't even have to pay him.
It's just Ben gave him a ride on his space laser, and that was it.
He just gave himself up to be controlled by international jewelry in the personal.
How you doing, Matt?
It's great to see you.
Thank you for coming.
Oh, it's an honor to be on your excellent show, Andrew.
I always love watching it.
It's nice to be with you.
I have to tell you, I was laughing because people were saying, people talk about the Daily Wire like this all the time.
And I keep saying, you know, it's really not like that at all.
It's like so different.
And I bumped into you at the Christmas party and you were like dazed with how different it was.
I mean, it's a great place to work, right?
It's a great place to work.
No, I'm honored.
It's been interesting to get differing responses to my joining the Daily Wire.
Every single human being that I've met in real life understands what's going on and is, you know, maybe like hesitant to rejoice, but it's certainly not crashing out.
It was interesting to see a lot of people just writing unhinged, untrue things.
Yeah.
So it's funny.
So it's both funny, but then kind of sad, you know, because I'd had people say, like, why would you work with a Jew?
I'm like, because Buggeroff, I like him.
It's none of your business.
And he's actually a really good guy.
Yeah.
And what the hell is that with you?
But I'm thrilled to be here.
I love when they accuse us of taking Ben's shekels because, you know, it is a little tough to get them in exchange now that Jesus threw the money changers out of the temple.
It's good money, you know?
Yeah, you know, but I'm thrilled.
Like, you know, you come and you work with a business.
I think you and I had that text exchange when you said it's everything that comes along with working with a bigger company, you know?
But overall, I've just been so impressed with everyone I've met.
And I'm just like, how do I like all these people so much?
Now, that might change.
Now that you're on my show, yeah.
If I can't be this optimistic at the beginning of my tenure, when can I be?
So I'm just going to embrace this until it all dissolves.
No, it is amazing.
I've been doing this for 10.
I was here from day one, and we've had screaming arguments, and there's never been a moment of hostility involved.
It's always just been trying to work out why we disagree and what's going on.
And it's been a blast.
I know.
And it's really interesting.
I was teasing you when you first came on about everybody being Catholic.
Now, I don't know what that's about.
Maybe Ben is just trying to do it.
I really think it's a bad choice by the Daily Wire.
Like it took me, it took me months to go, this seems like a really bad business move, but hey, I'm fine doing it.
But I still don't really understand.
But your show is different because you're not like Walsh and Knowles who talk about, they have no idea what they're saying.
Well, I mean, Knowles would be fine as long as you ended around 1,200, right?
He's got Catholicism down that 1,200.
But you actually have pretty vast knowledge of what you're talking about.
No, everyone keeps saying that.
I'm just, I have no knowledge at all.
I just, I love Jesus Christ.
I love the church.
I've seen how much my relationship with God has benefited my own life and made it so much more beautiful.
I've met people whose lives have changed as they've come into a relationship with Christ.
Sorry to get so deep so quick.
But that's why I'm passionate about doing this.
I want to have discussions with good and intelligent people who can help clear away the rubble that might be preventing a man or woman coming into a relationship with Christ and the church.
And I pray that when I become a stumbling block, that the Lord would even use that to help them on their journey.
But what is that, do you think?
I mean, I've had this exact same experience.
I mean, accepting Jesus Christ in my life is like just the kind of, it's like a red line.
Like before, everything was, you know, worry and kind of frantic and just I was in control and I was the ship was out of what's going on.
And suddenly, like my wife sent to me three weeks after my baptism, she turned to me and she said, you're like an entirely different person.
I've never seen you be serene.
I've never seen Drew the serene person before, you know.
And what is it that makes this such a hard sell?
Well, a hard sell or why is the benefit so beautiful?
No, well, I'll get to that in a minute, but the benefit is so beautiful.
But it seems like a hard sell for a lot of people.
I mean, it's hard for, you know.
Yeah, well, our blessed Lord says, take up your cross and follow me.
And I don't like that at all.
I don't want to do that.
I don't like suffering.
I don't like embracing suffering.
I don't like encountering my own poverty.
I don't like the fact that nothing in this life will make me happy, including marriage, as good as it is, including kids, as good as they are, including money, or none of it works.
I hate that.
I would much rather think it worked and then try to go find it.
But, you know, so, yeah, there is the call to self-denial, to self-sacrifice.
You don't get to do all of those things that maybe you were engaged in before you converted.
You have to give it all up.
You have to come to the conclusion that you're not at the center of the universe, that this story is not principally about me.
I don't like that either.
And you don't just have to come to understand that once, eh?
Like, it's a daily recognition.
So, I don't know.
And then, you know, there's all, and then there's just the bad witness of Christians who are, you know, who maybe have taken people for granted financially or who have been hateful or who have been abusive or have used their platforms to profit themselves with no concern for those that they're ministering to.
We all have stories like this and then terrible stories in the newspaper with awful abuses by Catholic priests or Protestant pastors or what have you.
So I suppose if Christianity is true, and I think it is, we have the world, the flesh, and the devil to contend with.
And I would think that the demonic would really like to have that intimacy with Jesus Christ for which we were all created.
That's where the war is, you know, and that's partly, I think, why it's so difficult initially.
You know, you were mentioning all these things that like Christ calls us to that sound bad.
And I was talking on my show this week about almost the first thing that happened after my baptism was my sense of my own virtue disappeared.
It was like a lightning flash.
And I thought, oh, I get it.
I kind of suck.
And I'm a nice guy.
I haven't broken most of the Ten Commandments.
But still, I suddenly realized all of the things that make me feel good about myself vanished.
They just disappear.
Why is it then that both of us are sitting here talking about how happy or joyful it makes us?
Yeah, what you just said then reminded me of Lewis, who I'm paraphrasing, and so we'll do a much worse job than whatever he said.
But something to the effect of whoever thinks it's easy to be a good person hasn't tried more than five minutes to be a good person, you know?
Look, a God exists and he loves us, and he doesn't just love us collectively the way a beekeeper may love his bees as a sort of blob of beeness.
According to Christianity, he knows me intimately.
He's attentive to me.
I can find refuge in him, that he has a good plan for my life, that all will be made well, that my sins can be forgiven.
Yeah, that even the things that are in my life right now that don't make sense, that are causing me pain, that I hate.
But if God exists and he loves me and he's using all things for my good, I can say, Jesus, help me to love what you're giving me, even though I don't understand it.
There's meaning in the universe, you know?
So I don't know.
I mean, it's like it's the kind of opposites.
You can choose nihilism and there's just nothing or there's everything.
And I think Christianity is true.
And that's why I'm happy.
Like, what a beautiful thing to be known and loved by the God of the universe.
It's not that it's almost like Christianity isn't too hard to believe, but that it's too good because everything in my life has let me down.
Yeah.
Like, I don't mean to be dramatic.
No, no, no.
Like in one way or another, it's usually disappointing.
Yeah.
So you come across this Christian message and you go, don't tell me that this could possibly satisfy me in some real degree because it's just, it's a gimmick.
You know, you become cynical.
Everything's a gimmick.
Nothing works.
Yeah.
It's funny.
You know, all my life I wanted to be a writer, the novelist.
It was the only thing I ever cared about, the only thing I wanted to accomplish in life.
And I remember writing this novel and it was made into a movie.
And I walked, I was wandering through Times Square in New York, and there was this ad with my name on it, you know, in Times Square.
And I remember this disappointment, which I could never, I couldn't even tell my wife about it.
I just thought, like, I don't care about this.
This is not what I care about.
What I care about is that when I'm writing, something beautiful is happening.
Something's pouring through me that is beautiful.
And, you know, it has been a revolution for me because I had this one talent that was really good, which is I listened to my inner voice.
And it was easy for me to say, oh, wait, I'm listening to the wrong voice, you know.
And then when I started listening to this other voice, everything just started going better.
And like I cared about the right things.
And I just like, I have such a hard time explaining to agents and lawyers, because I need agents and lawyers.
I'll say to them, you know, I work for joy.
You know, I have money.
I'm never going to be a billionaire.
And I never, I didn't set out to be a billionaire.
But at my age, I'm going to make it.
I think, you know, no worldwide cataclysm.
I'll make it to the, you know, I do it for that, for that joy.
And it made an entire huge difference in my life.
I mean, just tremendous freedom.
So you do the show, Pines with Aquinas, and you're talking about, you talk, I've noticed about to people who are in the church.
How do you feel about the church right now?
This is one of the things that I, a problem that I have with Catholics is this attraction to the church, which sometimes seems to me to go awry, the church itself.
How do you feel about what the church is doing right this minute?
Well, I think sometimes people have this mistaken view of the church.
They think of it as this pristine ark sailing across the waters of time with the perfect specimens of Christian valor aboard.
I see it differently.
This isn't original to me, this idea, but it's more like a cannonball has gone through the side and the mast is broken and half the sailors I meet are drunk and they smell and like everything's awful, but it's but this ship will make its port.
You know, and so my choice is this or out there.
So it's, I don't know what that sounds like, but I mean, I'm perfect.
If someone made the case to me that the Catholic Church is the most corrupt institution in the world, I'd be open to accepting that.
I'm not saying that it is, but if the case could be made up, like, okay, you know, in a way that doesn't, that part, I don't know, maybe it should bother me more than it does, but there's been corruption in the church for 2,000 years.
Maybe this is cliché, but of course, it was only John the beloved who first ran away from Christ, right, in the garden, but then came back to the cross.
But the rest abandoned him, you know.
And so I don't know.
I think we're at a time where there's a lot of people who are very interested in Christianity and in apostolic Christianity in particular, right?
Whether that be Orthodoxy or Catholicism, I think.
My concern is that since humility rarely goes viral and since the internet rewards people who are bombastic and triumphalist, that the temptation will be for this new crop of converts to use the Christian faith to bludgeon their ideological opponents, to shame them, to point to their depravity and it alone.
But I think principally as a Christian, we have to be in repentance of our own sin.
Criteria for Salvation00:14:58
If I'm ever more concerned with the sins of Trump or Biden or Planned Parenthood or what have you, than my own sin, then I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing.
Now, that isn't to say that we can't legitimately point out to evil things that have taken place and wish that they would do better.
But yeah, like Christianity is about this daily journey of repenting of my own sin.
And that's not fun.
I have had one of the truly wild lives imaginable.
I have come so far in life and seen so much.
But through all of it, the most important thing is, of course, my family.
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It's everything's in place if something were to happen to me, which eventually it will.
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Almost all my closest friends through my life have been Catholic.
And I've never quite understood that, right?
I've never quite understood why that is.
But we have these, we always have, first of all, only the Catholics care about beauty.
This is the one thing which is kind of my jam is beauty.
And I just think that this is how God speaks to me.
And, you know, when I when I see things, you know, I wrote about this in my last nonfiction book that I was flying in a plane above the clouds.
And I thought, until like 100 years ago, no one ever saw this.
And it's so beautiful.
You know, and we shut and yet we still shut our little blind.
Yes.
Yes.
So we can look at our phone is amazing.
But I was just sitting there thinking, like, who would make beauty, you know, in other words, it only must be because that's God's nature to make, you know, that he's expressing his nature through beauty.
And I just, I, I, only the Catholics care about this.
They are the only ones who actually think like, you know, I don't know.
Yeah.
I hope so.
I mean, you know, it's funny is like you're surrounded by people on both sides who must be irritating equally, but for different reasons, right?
So you've, I know that you grew up Jewish, but it's like you've got the Jews on one side who are saying to you, we don't even want you.
Yeah.
We encourage you to go away.
And then you've got annoying Catholics like me and Knowles.
Like, I want to ask you, like, what is there a single reason you wouldn't be Catholic?
What's the main reason?
And I won't argue with you.
I'm just going to say that.
No, no.
And but it was the next thing I was going to bring up anyway.
So you're ahead of me.
It's because I'm American, I think all power should flow upward and not downward.
And in human affairs, obviously, in godly affairs, it all flows downward.
But in human affairs, it should flow upward.
And I never want to be in a position where I have to use causestry to believe something I don't believe.
I mean, my life, one of the reasons I became a Christian was because I would refuse to believe what I didn't believe.
You know, like people, everyone around me was an atheist.
Everyone around me was a nihilist because I was living in Hollywood and in New York and all these places.
And I thought, yeah, but it doesn't make sense.
Okay.
So when there's a doctrine that comes down from on high from the church and it doesn't make sense, I just want to be able to say like, I'm not buying it, you know, like, and I don't want to pretend and I don't want to be pious about it.
And that's the main thing.
And then, yeah, it comes up in certain, I could list certain things that, but it's not really the specific things.
It's that.
And I wonder, I was going to ask you, does that ever happen to you?
Do you ever feel like I don't buy that, but I'm going to believe it because the church says it?
Yeah, it's a good question.
I think that was Lewis's primary reasons not wanting to become Catholic, wasn't it?
That he the idea of there being this living authority that could bind him to something that he didn't accept.
Yeah.
So I guess two things.
One, I think to make I need to make the distinction between doubt and questions.
You know, I think it was Cardinal John Henry Newman who said a thousand questions don't make a doubt.
And so to have that freedom to be like, that doesn't make sense to me.
You know, like there are certain practices and things within the church's teaching that still don't fully make sense to me, you know, that I'm trying to understand.
But I don't know.
I find it quite liberating to sort of submit myself to the teachings of what I believe to be the church Christ established and who he gave authority to.
Yeah, this might sound like a straw man.
I hope it isn't.
But the idea, and I, and I know it's not the case that every Protestant is his own pope and is just deciding, picking and choosing what he wants.
I understand that, but I don't know, there's something, if I submit myself to this one holy Catholic and apostolic church, then I don't have to go back through 2,000 years of Christian history, study things just correctly so that I have all of my doctrines in order.
I can just sort of now, that isn't to say leave my brain at the door, because whatever the Catholic Church teaches is reasonable, even if reason alone can't attain to it.
Do you know, like, so the Catholic Church would say that we don't need faith to know God exists?
Thomas Aquinas taught this, the First Vatican Council taught this de fide that we can know God exists wholly apart from revelation.
But then there are other things that we have to believe on faith, namely things that have been revealed to us, such as probably the existence of angels or the Trinity or the Eucharist, etc.
Yeah.
But there's something about that that I find quite liberating that I don't have to go through, as I say, 2,000 years of Christian history and figure this all out on my own.
Yeah.
I mean, and now, and then there are, and then if there are things I run up against that I'm like, I don't get this, then I, like you probably do, talk to people who are much smarter than me and go, this doesn't make sense.
Help me understand it.
Yeah.
And I would say definitely more often than not, probably 90% of the time, I feel really gratified that I pursued that line of questioning and feel quite confident that, okay, like here yet again, the church was smarter than I was.
And that makes sense to me.
You know, for clarity in this conversation, for people who don't know, I'm an Anglican Catholic, which is a form of Catholicism, but not the form of Catholicism.
And one of our slogans is no Protestant deletions, no Catholic accretions.
So in other words, we stop having doctrine after about 400.
That's where our doctrine ends.
And I've asked a bunch of people, like, you know, if there's a new doctrine, who decides?
And nobody knows.
Like, no, how you get new doctrines, which actually suits me.
So when Roman Catholics say this Catholic light, I say, yes, that suits me.
It suits me to just take the Apostles' Creed, which I believe in.
See, I would have a problem if every week I had to go in and say the Apostles' Creed and I thought like, Trinity, you know, like that.
Yeah, no, I certainly think, you know, it's a mark of integrity if the church is proposing something to an outsider such as yourself and by the church, you know what I mean?
And you just can't make heads or tails of it.
I think there's something, it's clearly a right just to be honest and say, I'm not going to pretend to accept what I can't accept.
So I think there's some integrity to that.
There is something, though, that I should say that I believe almost all most of the really important doctrines of the church.
And one of the things that, in fact, Jeremy Boring, the God King of the Daily Wire, the founder of the Daily Wire, he was kidding me about the fact that I make normal everyday doctrine sound controversial.
He says, somehow when it comes out of my mouth and people get angry at me and I'm saying something, I think that's in the catechism.
So one of these things is that mostly what we're talking about is the shaping of souls.
And when I see people online telling each other who's going to make it to heaven because of this rule or that rule, I think they're missing the point.
And it seems to me that Catholics actually believe this, that they agree, the Catholics, Roman Catholics actually agree with me on this, that they talk a lot about, you know, this rule and that rule, but really it's about the shaping of souls.
Is that an accurate description?
I would say that there is a sort of objective criteria through which we're saved, but then you have to talk about how that applies subjectively to any given individual.
So is it true that one must believe in Jesus Christ and be baptized in order to be saved?
Yes.
Is it can one be saved apart from the Catholic Church?
No.
Ought every Christian be a Catholic so as to attain to the fullness of what God wants for Christians?
Yes, you know, according to Catholicism.
But then it's like, how is that applied subjectively?
And so the church has always taught in one way or another that if someone through no fault of their own comes to reject the Catholic Church because they cannot accept it as truly being established by Christ and having the gift of infallibility and this sort of thing, if they're invincibly ignorant, that is to say, not responsible for their ignorance, then they can still be saved.
So as I say, you've got kind of the objective criteria, but then the subjective criteria.
And of course, we have no access to the subject criteria.
In a sense, not even to our own subjectivity, but certainly not to the subjectivity of anybody else.
So if I was to start saying who is in right, who will be saved and who won't be saved, well, I don't have access to that information.
Right, right.
I mean, I was just reading a book.
I wish I could remember his name, but he's a very famous Catholic theologian.
And he was saying, we know that Moses and Elijah were not baptized, but there they are talking to Christ.
And so we know that they're going to be saved.
Right.
Well, and then so the Catechism of the Catholic Church would state that we are bound to the sacraments, but God is not bound.
That's the key to me.
To the sacraments.
So it's like, I mean, just to put it really simply, it's like, if God reveals something to you and tells you to believe it, and you reject that, you cannot be saved.
It's as simple as that.
But if you are unaware that this is what God is teaching and you're invincibly ignorant about that, then there's, of course, still the possibility of salvation.
How does that sound to you?
Does that sound overly, I feel like I'm losing your, I sound like too legalistic or something like that.
Well, it gets, I have such faith in the corruption of humankind that I do not believe that anything human touches, that humans touch, is pure.
So I seriously believe that an angel with feathery wings could land beside the best human being on earth and whisper in his ear.
And when the man spoke the words that the angel whispered in his ear, they would be wrong.
So in other words, in other words, there's no human institution that I think is the word of God.
But then, I mean, how do you give assent then to what God has revealed if everything God has revealed has been perverted and corrupted and perverted and corrupted in a way that you can't decide how?
Well, you can, though.
I mean, this is the thing.
I think we know what Jesus was saying.
I think his words, you know, I don't think that like if there's a contradiction in the Bible, I feel no compulsion to fix it.
You know, I feel like, okay, so somebody made a printer's error.
Who knows what happens?
But I know what Jesus was saying, basically.
I mean, I know, you know, I have the idea of what he's saying.
And I know when people hurl hatred at each other, that's not what he was saying.
I know.
I know.
It goes against the basic Jesus.
I think we're missing the point.
So, if you set fire to someone because as a heretic, I think like, and yes, you know, I don't think it's a matter of niceness.
I think it is a very specific, very difficult to grasp point of view.
I mean, the things that Jesus says make no sense until they do.
I mean, they're like Zen Cohen.
You know, when he says, love your enemy, my first thought is, I don't even like my enemy.
What are you talking about?
I guess my concern would be if somebody says that the scriptures aren't inerrant and then I say, well, then how do you know what is true?
You say, or someone says, well, you just know, then it seems like you become the litmus test for what has to be the word of God.
And if I'm only accepting in the scriptures what makes sense to me personally, then it seems like it's me that I'm accepting.
Well, that would be true if there were no, you know, Benedict XVI, if there were no C.S. Lewis, if there were no, you know, great thinkers, Aquinas, you know, if there were no people that I could turn to to check myself, which I do constantly.
Yeah, but you don't check them as an authority as a Protestant.
That's the problem, it seems to me, right?
Like if you ask Aquinas about a particular translation and it rubs you the wrong way, it seems like you're still, and by the way, Aquinas isn't infallible.
And so a Catholic is free to disagree with him.
And I do disagree with Aquinas on things, but it just seems to me that you're still left with your own opinion, which is, again, I'll just, this is why I just love belonging to a church which can state things infallibly.
And by the way, it doesn't state many things infallibly.
Yes, I keep hearing that, but it seems like it does.
Always Talking, Never Trusting00:03:53
I keep hearing that.
I do not believe them when they tell me this.
So I'm going to run out of time.
I want to get to this important point.
Protestants always have this Christian ease, which I can't, which I detest.
But one thing they're always talking about is they're always talking about their Christian journey.
And in fact, I have found that to be descriptive of the experience of knowing Christ, that because he's infinite, there's always another step that you could take.
How would you describe that in your own life?
What is it that doors have opened up that have been transformative to you even after you believe, like, you know, long after you came to faith?
You know, in the second chapter of Song of Solomon, where the beloved appears, he's looking in through the lattice and he speaks to the beloved and she hides her head in the cleft of the rock and he says all sorts of beautiful things to her.
Like he calls her lovely and says, you know, come away with me.
The rains are over and gone and the flowers are appearing on the earth and she's buried in the cleft of the rock.
The same story is told when Peter says to Christ, get away from me.
I'm a sinful man.
So my relationship with our blessed Lord after having first encountered him at the age of 17 is something like that.
Don't say those things to me.
You can't be right.
Like I've experienced me.
I know me.
Yeah.
So piss off, please.
Like don't say those things.
You know, they hurt.
They hurt because I think you're lying or you're manipulating me.
But what I've found is the more I can begin to trust him and trust who he is.
So to trust what he says about himself and then to begin to trust what he says about me and that he's trustworthy and that I can sort of surrender my life over to him, the better my life becomes.
The nicer dad is with the kids.
Yeah.
The more patient I am with my good wife, the less likely I am to blame her for all of the problems in our life or my children or everybody else.
So it's just beautiful.
It's just Jesus, my refuge, my beloved.
It's like I keep looking for false refuges.
I don't know they're false.
It's like the angel who says, why do you seek the living among the dead?
I'm like, what are you talking about about smoking and drinking?
But when I turn to him and I know what that's like, then everything goes right in my life.
And again, it's this continual returning conversion to him.
Yeah.
And may he continue to, yeah, even if I'm full of crap and I don't mean what I'm saying right now, I hope that it's true and that I'll keep turning back to him every day.
You know, because what else is there?
Yeah.
No, just the other day, I suddenly realized for the first time that I haven't scratched like even like the surface of God's love.
I mean, even like even a little bit, you know, I haven't even begun to understand, which is amazing.
Matt Frad is the host of Pints with Aquinas.
You still call it Pints with Aquinas, right?
And I've been on your show a couple of times, and I just love it.
I was enjoying both songs.
It was an absolute joy, and it's good to see you.
And by the way, I met your wife, and believe me, you're way out of your league.
If you're blaming her, your complete sense of reality is distorted.
Thank you.
I appreciate it.
It's true.
All right.
I'll see you again, Matt.
Thanks for coming on.
It's good to talk to you.
Thanks.
Matt Frad, Pints with Aquinas, a great guy, truly great guy.
And his conversations are deep and rich, and as you can see, just pleasant.
He's just a fun person to talk to and knows what he's talking about.
And it's just a joy.
That will not be true on my show where we have no idea what we're talking about.
And we're just fumbling in the dark, but at least it's hilarious.