Lee Strobel, a former atheist and investigative journalist, examines supernatural claims in Seeing the Supernatural, citing millions of unexplained U.S. miracles—like a woman healed of incurable blindness or an infant cured of gastroparesis—backed by medical records and peer-reviewed studies. His childhood angel encounter and missionary John G. Payton’s protected home reveal divine intervention, while terminal lucidity cases (e.g., a dying woman’s verified vision) challenge skepticism. Strobel links unexplained phenomena to gospel growth, like China’s 90% church expansion via healings, and his new film The Case for Miracles debuts December 15–18. Even Klavan admits Strobel’s evidence forces materialists to confront belief-shifting thresholds. [Automatically generated summary]
And she said, I saw that red sticker when I was at the ceiling of the room looking down on the resuscitation.
So they're thinking she's nuts.
So they got a ladder.
They went up.
They looked in the top of the ceiling.
Boom.
Here's a red sticker, just as she is described.
Hey, it's Andrew Klavan with this week's interview with Lee Strobel.
I'm sure you know Lee Strobel.
He written The Case for Christ and many other books.
His latest one is Seeing the Supernatural, Investigating Angels, Demons, Mystical Dreams, Near-Death Encounters, and Other Mysteries of the Unseen World.
And I wanted to talk to Lee because I think one of the, obviously, if you listen to my show, you know, I feel that one of the most powerful forces on earth is culture, what you might call the intellectual atmosphere.
We breathe it in without knowing it, and it determines what we think is true and false and right and wrong.
And it's a rare person who breaks through without overreacting, without becoming like a radical and sort of just believing the opposite of everything.
I mean, I always talk about George Washington, who is such a hero of liberty, who really took him most of his life to realize why slaves weren't working as hard for him as he worked for himself.
And right now we have the tragedy that many otherwise lovely and moral women approve of abortion because that's just the air they breathe.
And Lee Strobel is a guy who kind of broke through that.
He was an atheist.
And when his wife converted, he used his skills as an investigative reporter to actually examine the evidence for God and for Christ and found out that it really was a very plausible scenario, as I myself believe that it is a completely plausible scenario, even though it breaks all the rules of our intellectual culture.
His new book is Seeing the Supernatural, as I said, investigating angels, demons, mystical dreams, near-death encounters, and other mysteries of the unseen world.
He's got a book called The Case for Miracles coming out December 15th and The Case for Christmas, which I guess is that a, first of all, Lee, thank you for coming on.
It's great to meet you.
Oh, I appreciate it.
It's such a pleasure.
It's great to meet you finally.
So is The Case for Miracles?
Is that a film?
Yes, it's a film.
Actually, a book I did by that title a couple of years ago, but it's a new film that'll be in a thousand movie theaters coast to coast starting December 15th for four nights, 15th through the 18th.
Great.
That is great.
And The Case for Christmas is a book coming out.
You're a busy man, I have to say.
Yeah, a little too busy.
I got to take a vacation.
So the Seeing the Supernatural, this is a theme that's kind of coming up in the world a little bit.
Charles Murray just wrote a book where he talked about it.
I think Rod Dreyer wrote a book where he talks about it.
Now, this book is basically a series of interviews, but I would like to know, I mean, I'm a big ghost story fan.
So I've gone ghost hunting a million times, and I've never seen anything even remotely resembling a ghost.
But I'm so materialist in my heart, just the way I grew up, that it would take like a transparent person like walking in with chains to convince me.
What convinces you?
I mean, first of all, I should ask you, have you ever had an experience of the supernatural?
Actually, I did.
And I'm always embarrassed by it.
And I think this is a real trend in America.
I think America is kind of unique in this way in the sense that many Christians are embarrassed by the supernatural.
You know, we want to be respectable, you know, and oh, yeah, it's okay if my neighbor knows I'm a Christian.
I go to church, no problem.
But I'm not into any of their weird stuff like angels or demons or anything like that.
And we get embarrassed by this stuff.
Miracles, oh, you know, that was way, way long ago.
And I think it hurts us not to embrace what the Bible clearly teaches.
Jesus was a healer.
Jesus did miracles.
Jesus was an exorcist.
Jesus cast out demons.
I mean, this stuff is real.
Yeah.
And so, but you know, my background's in journalism and law.
So I tend to be a skeptic.
I want evidence.
I want corroboration.
I want proof.
And so that's what I tried to do in seeing the supernatural is not just look at stories that you hear here and about.
I want to look at what is the corroboration.
How do I know this stuff is really true?
How do I know there really is a realm beyond what we can see and touch and put in a test tube?
And that's kind of what I explore in this book.
And the movie, of course, deals with one of the chapters in the book, too, which is miracles.
Is God still in the miracle business today?
Do we have any solid reasons to believe that God still performs miracles?
Guess what?
Yeah, we really do.
Have you seen anything that you would just say this is a miracle or this is a you yourself?
I've not seen a miracle myself.
To me, I have four criteria to try to determine, is this real?
Because there's a lot of stuff that people think is a miracle, but it's not.
Let's face it.
I mean, I commissioned a scientific poll of Americans asking this question.
Have you ever had at least one instance in your life that you can only explain as a miracle of God?
38% of American adults said yes.
So let's just arbitrarily throw out 99% of those.
Let's say, oh, those were just extraordinary coincidences.
Or it was a placebo effect.
Somebody thinks they're going to feel better, so they do feel better.
Or it was a misdiagnosis.
I don't have cancer, but yeah, you didn't have it in the first place.
It was a misdiagnosis.
That stuff happens.
We have to admit that.
Could be fraud.
We've got cases of people fraudulently claiming miracles for financial gain and so forth.
So throw out 99%.
And guess what?
We would still have nearly a million miracles just in the United States alone.
Wow.
Okay.
So I think there's cases that meet those criteria that I mentioned that stand up to scrutiny.
So have you heard us?
What stories have you heard that just makes you think like, yeah, that's a real story?
Oh, yeah.
This is one from the book and from the movie.
A woman who was diagnosed 12 years earlier with an incurable blindness, juvenile macular degeneration.
It's an incurable disease.
So she's blind.
So she goes to a school for the blind, graduates from the school for the blind.
She learns how to read Braille so she could read, walked with a white cane.
And she married a Baptist pastor.
And so one night they're getting ready to go to bed.
And he comes over and he puts his hand, she's already in bed, puts his hand on her shoulder and he begins to cry and he begins to pray.
And he says, Lord, I know you can heal my wife.
I know you can do it.
And Lord, I pray you do it tonight.
And with that, she opened her eyes and saw her husband for the first time.
Come on.
She said later, she said later, after all these years of blindness, all of a sudden I can see perfectly.
It's a miracle.
And sure enough, her eyesight continued for the rest of her life, another 50 years.
Now, this is a case that's been documented by multiple medical researchers and published in a peer-reviewed medical journal.
This is not just something that you read on the internet.
This is a well-documented case.
And that's what I look for.
I look for cases where you have solid medical documentation.
There's no natural explanation that could explain it, multiple and reliable eyewitnesses, and occurs in the context of prayer.
Often these things are instantaneous, too, which leads to their credibility.
So I go, what do you do with that?
What do you do with that?
I have no answer for that.
Who did you talk to?
What kind of people did you talk to?
Did you talk to people who had had miracles or people who studied it?
Both.
Both.
You know, I interviewed Craig Keener, who's a professor, PhD at Asbury Seminary, one of the leading experts in the world on the topic of miracles.
I interviewed him for my book at length for two chapters.
I interviewed some of the people who themselves had miracles.
So I'll give you another example of a guy I got to know.
His name is Chris.
Chris, when he was an infant, is born and he kept vomiting up his food.
He couldn't keep it down.
So they did surgery because this kid was going to die.
And it turned out he had a condition called gastroparesis, which is a paralyzed stomach.
His stomach is paralyzed.
Well, it's an incurable condition.
What can you do?
So they installed ports in him, two ports that went directly into his intestines.
So for the rest of his life, 16 years anyway, first 16 years of his life, the only way he could eat was if they would feed him through these ports that went directly into his intestine.
And it was okay.
I mean, he lived.
He couldn't eat, but he lived until one day his parents brought him to a Pentecostal church.
And so they went up to the pastor.
They said, hey, look, our son's got, he pulled up his shirt and showed him the holes, the tubes in him, and said, would you pray for him?
What have we got to lose?
And so this pastor puts his hand on Chris's shoulder.
And Chris said later, he told me later, it was like I felt an electric shock go through my body.
And instantly, he is healed of this incurable condition, gastroparesis.
So much so, get this.
He's 16 years old.
He goes out that day and he has his first meal, Chinese food.
That was what they had.
He ate Chinese food for the first time.
He goes to the doctors.
They confirm he's cured.
They do surgery and remove the tubes from his abdomen.
In fact, during my interview, he pulls up his shirt and you can see the scars from where the tubes were.
Wow.
This is an incurable condition.
Again, instantly healed in a moment of prayer.
What do you do with that?
And I'll add this, Andrew.
We've got scientific tests that suggest something supernatural is going on.
I'll give you an example.
Miracles don't necessarily happen evenly distributed around the globe.
They tend to cluster in places around the world where the gospel is just breaking in.
And often those are primitive societies.
They can't read a Bible if you gave it to them, but they respond to something supernatural.
So there was talk of a bunch of miracles taking place in Mozambique in Africa.
So this woman who has a PhD from Harvard, who's a professor at a major secular university, Indiana University, says, I'm going to test it.
She sends a team of researchers to Mozambique.
They go into the remote areas and say, bring us all your deaf and blind.
So they bring all the deaf and blind, people with severe hearing and loss and vision loss, and they test them scientifically.
What is their actual level of vision?
Can they see anything?
What's their level of hearing?
They test them scientifically.
Then immediately they're prayed for in the name of Jesus by people who tend to have a track record of God using them this way.
And then immediately after that, they're tested again.
Is there any difference?
Is there any improvement?
Guess what they found?
In virtually every case, there was improvement.
In fact, get this.
The average improvement in visual acuity was tenfold.
Wow.
There was one woman they met, and when they first tested her, she could not hear the equivalent of a jackhammer next to her.
After 10 minutes of prayer in the name of Jesus, she could hear a normal conversation.
Well, these researchers are so blown away by this, they say, we got to see if we can replicate this.
So they go to another place where the gospel is breaking in, southern Brazil.
They do the same test.
They get the same results.
Now, this is a rigorous scientific study accepted for publication in a secular, scientific, peer-reviewed medical journal, one of the major medical journals in America, the Southern Medical Journal.
And I interviewed the woman from Indiana University who commissioned this study.
And I said, what do you make of this?
And she looked at me.
She said, Lee, something's going on.
She said, this isn't fraud.
This isn't some televangelist whipping people into an emotional frenzy.
She says, something is going on.
And I think she's right.
I think it's something supernatural.
You know, Edon Scalia, the Supreme Court justice, he told the story about a church just outside of Washington, D.C., where I believe it was a stat, I'm trying to remember, a statue of the Virgin Mary.
And I think she was crying, and the statue started to cry.
And the point of the story was that people were lining up and going to see this thing, but the media never went.
They never even visited.
It was like 10 minutes outside of town, and they never went and looked at it.
So you're telling me these stories that I've never heard before.
Yeah.
And I mean, I've been.
In peer-reviewed medical journals.
Yeah.
You'd think that they would, you think that a reporter would do stuff like this.
So give me this again.
When you say that they cluster, they cluster in places where the gospel is just coming to be preached.
Yeah.
For example, one scholar told me in his research, he believes that 90% of the growth in the church in China is a result of people themselves or they know someone who's been supernaturally healed.
So he believes it's this kind of thing that is fueling the growth of the church in that culture, which is where the gospel is just breaking in against all odds.
So in part of the subtitle of the book, Seeing the Supernatural, Investigating Angels, Demons, Mystical Dreams, Near Death Encounters, and Other Mysteries of the Unseen World.
Let's talk about angels for a minute because I got to admit, it's very hard for me.
I've seen things that struck me as angelic, and I've seen things that struck me as demonic.
I think sometimes the pictures that people have painted of angels get in your way, you think like that, you know, that doesn't make that much sense.
What have you heard about this that you believe in?
Well, again, I'm looking for documentation.
I'm looking for corroboration.
It's interesting in the Bible, in Hebrews, it says that some people will have encounters with angelic beings because it says that some people, unbeknownst to them, provide hospitality to strangers who turn out to be angels.
So apparently there is some precedent for people having encounters.
So I tried to look at those cases that are well documented.
I'll give you an example.
It's a guy named John G. Payton, P-A-T-O-N, from Scotland.
Encounter with an Angel00:17:50
He and his wife were missionaries.
He went to a remote island in the South Pacific in the New Hebrides to tell the tribespeople about Jesus.
And they lived in a little cottage there.
Well, it turned out the tribespeople didn't much like to hear about Jesus.
And so one night, a mob of them came to burn down their house and kill them.
So what do you do?
I mean, they're in their home.
They're seeing this mob form.
They prayed.
God, help us.
God, protect us.
God, provide for us.
They prayed all night long.
By dawn, the mob just sort of dissipated and people went home.
And they kind of scratched their heads.
They didn't know what happened.
A year later, he led the head of that mob to faith in Jesus Christ.
And he's talking to him and he says, hey, do you remember that night when y'all came to burn down our house and kill us?
The guy said, oh, yeah, I remember that night.
He said, why didn't you do it?
And he said, well, who were all those men you had there?
And John said, there were no men there.
It's just my wife and I.
He said, no, no, no.
Your house was surrounded by these muscular men in all white with drawn swords.
There's no way we could have hurt you that night.
We all went home and went to bed.
Wow.
Wow.
What do you do with that?
Yeah.
What do you do with that?
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So, I mean, have you ever seen anything like photographic evidence or, you know, something that just really struck you?
One of the things Charles Murray talked about was he came to believe in the Shroud of Turin and thought that that was real.
Have you ever seen anything that struck you as like, yeah, this is a document?
Yeah, a couple of things.
The Shroud of Turin.
I mean, when I got to know the official photographer of the Shroud Research Project, and he made a couple of life-size reproductions, high, high-quality of it.
And I got to look at it close up.
And I'm telling you, a chill went down my spine.
Am I looking at the face of Jesus?
I mean, there is good evidence.
A good friend of mine, Dr. Jeremiah Johnston, who's a historian and scholar, he's convinced that the Shroud is real.
I'm not quite there yet.
I'm about 85%.
I've still got some questions, but a lot of people believe it.
But I'll tell you what happened to me so I can speak from personal experience.
And again, I was embarrassed by this.
I never used to tell people this.
When I was 12 years old, I had an encounter with an angel.
Here I am.
I'm 12 years old.
I'm in the kitchen of my house.
I have this dream, but it's unlike any dream I've ever had.
The only dream I remember from my childhood, an angel appears to me, and I knew intuitively it was an angel.
He appears, and as he appears, he's extolling heaven, talking about heaven, how wonderful heaven is.
And kind of offhandedly, I said to him, Well, you know, I'm going to go there someday.
And he looked at me and said, How do you know?
What do you mean, how do I know?
I mean, I'm a good kid.
I get pretty good grades in school.
I obey my parents for the most part.
I'm trying to justify how good I am to get into heaven.
And he looked at me and he said, That doesn't matter.
And a chill went down my spine.
How can this not matter?
All my efforts to be a compliant kid, you're telling me they don't matter.
And he said, Someday you'll understand.
And then he disappeared.
Well, I wrote it off to a bad pizza.
You know, it must have just been a dream.
I later became an atheist.
But then my wife drags me to a church after she became a Christian.
And I hear the gospel presented for the first time in a way that I got it, where he said, you know, our entry into heaven is not based on how quote unquote good we are in this life, because none of us is perfectly good.
It is a free gift of forgiveness and eternal life that Jesus purchased on the cross when he died as our substitute to pay for all of our sin.
We just need to receive this free gift of his grace.
And my mind flashed back to that encounter with the angel because I thought that angel told me something when I was 12 years old that I could not and did not know.
Number one, salvation is not based on how good we are, it's based on receiving God's grace.
And secondly, he made a prophecy that someday you'll understand.
And 16 years later, that prophecy came true.
Now, I was so embarrassed by it.
Even if I became a Christian, I just didn't tell people.
But then at my ordination, I'm being ordained to be a pastor.
And so they've got all these theologians there and they're questioning you about your theology, make sure you're all Orthodox and everything.
And I thought, do I tell these guys?
I've got to tell them.
How can I, maybe they'll think I'm disqualified because, you know, I'm nuts or something.
So I said, guys, I just have to tell you something that happened to me when I was 12 years old.
And I told them the whole story.
And you know what the reaction was?
Yeah, we've heard that kind of thing a million times.
Yeah.
Yeah, they were funny.
Yeah, gotcha.
No problem.
So I'm not as embarrassed as I used to be about it.
See, this is the thing.
This drives me crazy.
If that's true, and they've heard it a million times.
Yeah.
Why aren't there like means what I was talking about in the introduction, that our intellectual atmosphere is so against this, is so materialist that you can't even accept it.
One of my favorite moments when I was talking to Charles Murray was he said he was having a hard time kind of accepting the supernatural.
And I said to him, do you pray?
He said, this is not an exact quote, but it's pretty close.
He said, I tried it once and it worked.
So I got scared and I stopped.
That's awesome.
It's great.
It's perfect.
So I have to ask you this.
You say that the angel disappeared.
Give me a cinematic description.
What did this look like?
I mean, when it appeared, did it just pop into being or what?
He descended, which is how I kind of intuitively knew this was an angel.
He didn't have to say he was an angel.
He was a male.
Interestingly, in the Bible, angels are spirits.
But they can take on the appearance of a human being.
And all of the time in the Bible, it's always a male.
But I researched cases in ancient Jewish literature where it was a female that the angel had taken the body, you know, presented themselves as.
And there's no reason that can't be true.
But he kind of glowed a bit.
And so it just intuitively I knew that, oh, and he's talking about heaven.
So I just kind of put one and one together.
And then at the end, he just dissipated and disappeared.
So how could you become an atheist after this?
Well, I literally wrote it off as a bad pizza.
I thought, oh, you know, it was just, I'm 12 years old.
What do I know?
I figured this can't be true.
And, you know, as a skeptic, as an, I mean, I'm trained in journalism and law.
I look for evidence and facts.
And, you know, is that real?
Well, there were two things that indicated it was, but I didn't know because at the time, because that prophecy had not come true.
And I thought he was talking gibberish.
What do you mean?
It doesn't matter how good I try to be, that that's not the ticket to heaven.
That's gibberish.
So I kind of wrote it off because I didn't know what he's talking about.
So that happens.
I've had answers to prayer that you go, looks like an answer to prayer that I can't explain away.
I was as when I was a new Christian, pretty new Christian, we had $500 in the bank.
That was our entire net worth at the time.
And I prayed and I felt God communicating to me that I needed to go and empty my bank account and write an anonymous cashier check and mail it on Friday.
It was very specific.
Mail it on Friday to this young woman in our church.
And I'm thinking, I don't think I'm going to do that.
That's all I got is 500.
So I went to my wife, said, honey, I just had this really specific impression.
I think it's from God.
Would you pray with me and let's see what happens?
So we both prayed and we both had the same impression.
Okay, so we went, we closed our bank account, took our life savings, bought a $500 cashier check anonymously, mailed it Friday afternoon to this woman.
On Monday morning, before mail delivery that day, on Monday morning, I get a phone call from that young woman.
And she's crying.
And she says, Lee, something terrible's happened.
I said, what?
What's wrong?
She said, would you pray for me?
I said, what?
What's going on?
She said, Lee, over the weekend, my car broke down.
And if I don't have my car, I'm going to lose my job.
I'm going to lose my apartment.
I'm going to lose everything.
And they say it's going to cost $500 to fix my car.
I don't have $500.
Would you please pray that God would help me?
And I said, oh, yeah, I'll be glad to pray that.
And, you know, sure enough, that afternoon, the mail comes.
It's anonymous.
To this day, she doesn't know it was us.
If she watches your podcast, now she'll know.
We never told her that it was us.
But I'm thinking, you know, God could have prevented her car from breaking down.
Sure.
But then I wouldn't have the joy and my wife wouldn't have the joy of being an answer to someone's prayer.
So is that conclusive evidence?
No, I don't think that is.
Is it indicative that maybe this is real?
Yeah, I think it maybe is.
I know.
You do wonder.
I mean, I wonder in my own life, like, what would it take?
I've seen things that I could count as miracles that, you know, that, but you could also, but everything has, I mean, I think C.S. Lewis said that, after said that after things happen, they can always be explained.
You know, the things that they tell you cannot possibly happen, then they happen, they explain them backwards.
And so I don't know what it would take.
I mean, I think if I had that angel experience, that would be pretty much real.
I mean, what do you do with that?
And, you know, the whole thing with John Payton, that angel experience is phenomenal.
And here's another thing that's interesting.
And I talk about this in my book, Seeing the Supernatural.
There's a phenomenon that's biblical.
In Acts chapter seven, Stephen's about to be killed.
He's about to be stoned to death.
And it says he's full of the Holy Spirit.
And he looks up on his deathbed and sees the heavens open up and sees the glory of God and he sees Jesus in heaven.
There is a phenomenon that is so common, it will blow your mind of people on their deathbed about to die getting a glimpse of what's to come.
One team of researchers went to a huge hospice facility in New York State and they told all the dying people there, hey, if you have a vision unlike anything you've ever had, would you please tell us?
Because people like I was with the angels, they're embarrassed.
They're going to think, you're going to think I'm nuts.
So a lot of people don't want to say anything.
No, no, no.
If you have a vision unlike anything, would you please tell us?
88% of them had a pre-death vision.
Tens of thousands of these have been documented.
One team of researchers studied 5,000 of them and said this is not wishful thinking.
It's not just coming from their imagination.
There is something supernatural in their conclusion going on here.
And here's what's interesting, because you mentioned angels.
Children who are dying will often see angels coming for them, but not in the way you would expect.
So in other words, in Jesus, when he told the story about the rich man and the beggar who both died, and the beggar goes to paradise to be with God, he says, Jesus says that angels carried him to that place of bliss.
And so many people on their deathbed will see angels coming for them.
Charles Templeton, the most famous skeptic, atheist of Canada, who did come to the faith before he died, saw angels coming for him before he died.
But here's the corroboration to me.
How does a five-year-old child envision an angel?
Well, it's a guy with big wings, right?
And maybe a halo and maybe some feathers.
I mean, that's what a five-year-old would think about.
That's not what dying children see on their deathbeds.
So we have a case from a doctoral dissertation of one of these instances where a little girl is dying and she says to her mom, mommy, mommy, do you see them?
What, honey?
The angels.
They're in this room.
They're coming for me.
Oh, listen to their voices.
It's so beautiful.
They're singing.
Look at their eyes.
Their eyes are so beautiful.
And the mother didn't want to disappoint her.
So she said, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I see the angels.
Look at their big wings.
And the little girl said, oh, mommy, you don't have to lie.
They don't have big wings.
And she went on to describe them in vivid detail.
And the truth is, the Bible says, angels don't all have wings.
But there's a child who is seeing something on her deathbed of angels coming, but not what if this was just conjured up by her imagination as a five-year-old, I think she would have seen the caricature that five-year-old sea of angels, you know, wings and halos.
And that's not what she described.
It's so it's interesting.
It's so interesting.
One of the things that got Murray that's been in the paper now, I think in the Wall Street Journal, there's been this big debate to near-death experiences and to that terminal lucidity that they show that the mind operates outside the body.
Unbelievable.
Yeah, unbelievable.
I document that in my book as well with cases that are corroborated.
Again, I'm looking for corroboration.
How do you know?
And so we've got, get this, I think it was 9,000 scholarly articles that have been written about near-death experiences in the last 50 years.
Or no, 900, 900 scholarly articles in scientific and medical journals.
A near-death experience is not when somebody's on their deathbed.
It's when they are clinically dead.
Often no brain waves, no heartbeat, no respiration, but they're going to come back.
They're not permanently dead.
They're just clinically dead.
But they're dead.
They're clinically dead.
And yet, just as the Bible describes, their spirit, their soul, separates from their body.
And we have many cases.
I think one writer just documented 197 of them where that spirit sees things or hears things that would have been impossible for them to see or hear if they hadn't had an authentic outer body experience.
So for instance, there was a woman who was bleeding to death.
They couldn't control her.
She was dying in a hospital in England, Memorial Hospital in London.
And she's dead.
She's dead.
But she said later, I was conscious the whole time.
And her spirit is separated from her body.
And she said, I'm floating near the ceiling, looking down.
I'm watching the nurses and the doctors frantically trying to revive my body.
And after a while, they succeeded and her body was revived and her spirit returned to her body.
But you know what she said?
She said, by the way, there's a ceiling fan here in this room.
She said, on the top of one of the blades, you couldn't see it from the room because on the top of one of the blades is a red sticker, which she described in very vivid and clear detail.
And she said, I saw that red sticker when I was at the ceiling of the room looking down on the resuscitation effort.
So they're thinking she's nuts.
So they got a ladder.
They went up.
They looked in the top of the ceiling.
Boom.
There's a red sticker, just as she has described.
Amazing stuff.
There are scores of cases like that.
Can I give you one quick one?
We have to be quick.
I'm almost out of time.
Yeah.
Okay, never mind.
We'll do it another time.
But there are some ones that were just absolutely, there is no explanation.
How do you explain that other than her spirit did separate from body, just as the Bible describes?
Amazing stuff.
And if you want to read more, seeing the supernatural is the book, Seen the Supernatural and the Case for Miracles comes out December 15th as a movie.
Lee, really interesting conversation.
Just to meet you.
I've admired you for so long.
Oh, it's great to deny.
I've loved your work.
So it's nice to meet you as well.
And great, really interesting stuff.
Thank you for coming on.
I appreciate it.
My pleasure.
Anytime.
Well, that was really interesting.
Really interesting stuff.
And I don't know what it would take to convince me.
I knew a woman, a young woman, who was a socialist and a materialist, and she died and came back.
I asked her at a party, you know, did she see anything?
And she said, Yes, my soul left my body and all this.
And I said, So, are you a believer now?
She said, No, just didn't change her mind at all.
So, I don't know what it would take, but fascinating stories: Lee Strobel.
And again, the book is Seen: The Supernatural, Investigating Angels, Demons, Mystical Dreams, Near-Death Encounters, and Other Mysteries of the Unseen World and The Case for Miracles.
The movie comes out December 15th, and I will be back on Friday with the Andrew Clavin Show.