Dinesh D'Souza’s The Dragon’s Prophecy exposes Hamas’ October 7th brutality through raw, unreleased footage—like a terrorist boasting over killings while parents urged more violence—and ties it to biblical conflicts via archaeology (e.g., Caiaphas-era artifacts). Interviews with Netanyahu, Huckabee, and victims like the Miran brothers underscore the emotional toll, contrasting Israeli resilience with Western hostility. D'Souza argues anti-Semitism demands both human and supernatural explanations, while Hollywood’s ideological bias stifles conservative narratives, forcing creators to bypass studios via streaming (topping Amazon DVD charts). The film’s bold thesis—linking modern strife to biblical prophecy—challenges conventional views of Middle East conflicts. [Automatically generated summary]
When you're eating dinner, you get sirens and everybody has to run out of the restaurant.
So we're standing with one of the waiters in one of the restaurants and this young woman, maybe in her 20s, and we say, you know, man, like, how do you, how do you live like this?
You know, and she just looks up at us with kind of very clear expression.
She goes, well, we have to.
Hey everyone, it's Andrew Klavan with this week's interview with the one and only Dinesh D'Souza.
You know him.
He's an author, a filmmaker, a commentator, and just a courageous voice, a consistently courageous voice.
You know, he does these wonderful films that draw people in.
And I watched his new one, The Dragon's Prophecy, last night.
And I think it's his best film.
I thought it was just fascinating.
I have lots of questions about it, but it really takes a look at what's happening in Israel.
Obviously, this fight that began, that Hamas began two years ago on October 7th and the atrocities there.
But it looks at it from a totally different angle.
And I just, I could not stop watching her.
It was just, I didn't want to stop watching it, but I couldn't.
Always love talking to Dinesh.
It's great to see you, Dinesh.
Thank you for coming on.
Hey, thanks for having me.
I really appreciate it.
So I guess I want you to explain what this is about, because it's about October 7th, it's about the war in Gaza, but it's about a lot more than that.
Can you give us an idea of what it's about?
Well, the film begins with some riveting footage of October 7th, footage that, somewhat to my surprise, was not released in the two years after October 7th.
Most people just hadn't seen it.
Partly for a good reason, the government of Israel had decided to hold back on like a public release of it, but we've been collecting it.
And so even though we didn't use some of the most gruesome footage, we showed enough that puts you on the scene.
But our goal is not just to cinematically put you there, it's also to put you face to face with a kind of evil that we're not used to thinking about or grasping.
At one point, a terrorist who has just killed 10 people calls his mom and dad to celebrate.
And you might expect them to be horrified.
He's like, I killed 10 Jews with my own hands and they're cheering him on, kill, kill, kill.
And we want people to think about that.
What does this actually mean that the perpetrators of these horrific crimes filmed it, were proud of it, put it on public display.
They were Instagramming it.
They were live streaming it.
So then the film, however, goes into a very wide-angled view of all this.
And the wide angle is supplied by nothing other than the Bible.
And Jonathan Khan, who's the author of the book, The Dragon's Prophecy, makes a startling analogy.
He basically says, we've seen all of this before.
This war with Hamas, all of this is a replay of ancient battles recorded in the Bible between the Israelites and their longtime enemies called the Philistines.
He goes on to point out that the Philistines, the Palestinians, same name, same word.
But not only that, there's a parallelism of tactics.
Here is where Khan really excels because he drills into it.
He gives you, when he gives you one analogy or two, you're like, I don't know.
But he piles it on.
And after a while, you go, whoa, you know, there really does seem to be a very strange biblical echo to all this.
And then because Khan is a guy who speaks in biblical language, and I have an audience that is partly Christian, partly secular, I said to myself, I need a section on biblical archaeology.
I need to sort of validate the Bible.
I need to show that these figures of the Bible, the Bible is talking about real people and true events.
And this can now be verified by coins and clay seals and artifacts coming out of the ground.
But the biblical archaeology has a double purpose because not only does it authenticate the historicity of the Christian and the Hebrew scriptures, by the way, but it also, almost en passant, in passing, it establishes indubitably the presence of the Jews in their ancient homeland going back almost 4,000 years.
So that's a political point.
And then the film goes into the political side, interviews, one-on-one with Netanyahu, one-on-one with the U.S. Ambassador Huckabee, a discussion with a terrorism expert.
So this is a film more ambitious than my other films because its amplitude is huge.
It's covering history from the beginning of time almost to the end of time.
And it is attempting to synthesis an integration between the political and the biblical.
You know, whenever I bring filmmakers on, I like to talk to them about the process.
But before we get to that, I really want to talk more about this biblical prophecy thing.
I'm a guy who's kind of, I find the Bible a magical book.
I mean, it's just, you know, I believe it to be the word of God, probably in different, like C.S. Lewis said, it's not always the word of God in the same way in each chapter.
That's kind of where I stand as well.
I always get a little nervous when I start to hear prophecy, especially, you know, there's a hint in the dragon's prophecy that these events mark the end of days.
I mean, there's a hint of that.
You don't necessarily take that tack, but the author of the book hints at it.
And I'm sitting there and I was thinking, well, you know, Jesus said no one knows when this is happening.
But it is very compelling.
Let's put it that way.
It did make me just think, I want to hear more about this.
Where did you, how did you come out of it?
When you came out of it, forgetting the audience for a minute, but just you, Dinesh, what did you feel after talking to him?
You know, my mind, as yours is, I think, is fundamentally secular.
This is actually what makes me a good debater in the realm of Christian apologetics.
I think in terms of history, brain science, the latest findings in cosmology and so on.
And so the topic of forecasting anything already makes me, gives me a little bit of the heebie-jeebies.
Not only that, but I also know, having looked at the book of Revelation, that it is a book that appears to be quite obviously veiled or obscure.
It's written as if it doesn't want you to know blow by blow what's going to happen in the end times.
And the Bible as a whole, I think she's better understood as supplying not a script, but rather, you could say signposts, certain things that the Bible says, you know, look out for this.
If this happens, you might kind of want to be on your guard.
We're not going to tell you the when, but we're going to give you some indications of what is the last age, which by itself is of uncertain duration.
So one of those signs is the Jews coming back to their ancient homeland.
This is repeatedly predicted in the Bible that the Jews will be scattered to the ends of the earth and they will come back.
And think of it, through the centuries, you know, this was such an implausible prediction.
I mean, it seems so ridiculous, so unlikely that it would happen.
And yet it did happen.
It hadn't happened within our lifetime.
The Bible also says that in the last age, there will be a kind of almost unexpected surge of hatred and hostility toward two groups of people.
One, the Jews, the chosen people.
And it's going to be precisely for that reason.
The Jews are seen as the symbol of God, the chosen of God.
This is the way that the devil, if you will, the dragon is the devil and the dragon's prophet, the dragon will go after God by going after the Jews.
The dragon cannot overthrow God, so he targets the things that God appears to care about.
And number two, there will be an equal rising temperature of hostility, hatred, attacks against the Christians, because the Christians are, in the words of Jonathan Kahn, spiritual Israelites.
They're grafted onto the tree, so they're going to get it too.
And so the way I look at it is: all right, let's look around the world right now.
You know, is it the case or is it not that we see both these tides rising together?
And not only that, the attacks are coming from the same people.
And by that, I still, I don't even just mean the global jihadis.
Yes, they are the ones chopping the heads off.
They are the ones who planned the Hamas attack.
I'm also talking about the hostility to Jews and Christians in Western civilization.
A lot of that hatred in places like Canada, Australia, Europe, the United States, is equally directed toward Judaism and toward Christianity, toward the principles of America and the West, Athens and Jerusalem, and also toward the nation of Israel.
So for these reasons, I think that we are living in, you could say, I mean, I'd be willing to say an ominous time.
I don't know if I would, you know, commit myself to the fact that we are in the last days, but I thought it's a provocative idea to include in the film.
Yeah, no, it's a very provocative idea.
And I think we all have this feeling that something, you know, we're turning some kind of corner in the history of humankind, if only technologically.
But a lot of this stuff is coming out.
You have been, you know, as I have come to expect from you, you have been blunt and courageous in dealing with the anti-Semitism on the right that's come about.
And recently I heard Tucker Carlson, while giving a platform to Nick Fuentes, say, the people who annoy me most are these Christians, Zionists, because that's a heresy.
That's a Christian heresy.
And I, Tucker, am a Christian and I hate it.
Watching your film, you can't help but feel that that's complete nonsense.
You know, I'm not even familiar with this term Christian Zionism.
And I've written three books on Christian apologetics.
I've never used that term.
But the continuity between the Old Testament or the Hebrew scriptures and the new, this is not some modern innovation.
Sometimes the people who propose what they call replacement theology like to say that they're fighting against dispensational theology, as though this is some sort of esoteric fight within Protestantism.
No, it was one of the popes, I think it might have been Benedict or Pope John Paul II, who said many years ago, he said, it is the promised land.
It is the holy land for everyone, but it is the promised land to the Jews.
And he couldn't have been more clear.
And this guy's obviously not, he's not just not a dispensationalist.
He's not a Protestant at all.
This is the mainstream Christian position that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Hebrew scriptures.
And Jesus himself was in the middle of those debates.
I mean, here is a guy who's like, you know, bathing in the pool of Siloam and walking the pilgrimage road to the temple.
And he's, you know, he's arguing within the orbit of Judaism.
And there were many different schools within Judaism at the time.
And so the Jewishness of Jesus, I think, is something I've just taken for granted.
And I'm rather startled to see it somehow being challenged by people who say, in effect, Jesus was not a Jew.
He was really the first Christian.
And I'm like, well, what's your biblical authority for that?
Like, did Jesus ever say that?
Like, no.
So there's a kind of bizarre thing going on here.
Now, look, I think that the anti-Semitism issue, the reason the film, I think, makes a real contribution to this is I talk to secular Jews who cannot understand anti-Semitism.
And I think I know why.
It's because they are searching for a rational or secular explanation.
I agree.
And I can give one to a degree.
In fact, earlier in one of my earlier books, The End of Racism, I contrasted racism and anti-Semitism.
One is a kind of looking down.
That's racism.
Anti-Semitism, I said, is a kind of looking up with envy.
And you basically make the argument, these people are doing better than me, not because they're smarter, not because they work harder, not because they save more money, but because they're morally corrupt and I'm not.
My poverty is explained by my virtue.
So there's this element.
But even after you've made the argument, you kind of feel like, well, that doesn't fully get a hold of it.
It's part of it, but there's something missing.
And I think what's missing is, you could almost say the supernatural element.
And this is why the movie really goes there, because I think that a full explanation of anti-Semitism as a phenomenon requires the natural and the supernatural explanation.
I completely agree with you.
We're talking to Dinesh D'Souza's film is The Dragon's Prophecy, a very washable, like compelling film about all this.
And you go to the places where the attack, the October 7th attack took place, and you interview the people there.
And I have to say, you know, I have a certain heart.
I've read some of the memoirs of the, some of the writings of the hostages, and I was really taken with the depth of ignorance in Gaza.
These poor children taught to hate from the minute they can think and really learn nothing about the reality of the world, learn nothing about how people live in Israel, what the Jews really think.
And I know that that's a terrible, terrible curse.
But at the same time, I'm watching your film and I'm seeing these people weeping with joy over the rapes and murders and slaughter of children that took place on October 7th.
And then you go and you talk to the people who were there and the humanity, their humanity, their advanced humanity is very, very clear.
What was your experience of talking to the victims of this attack?
Well, it was very transformational in a number of ways.
I mean, the first one was we had been collecting this October 7 footage for two years.
My wife was on a Telegram channel and essentially they were uploading videos almost by the day.
And so I had this archive of footage.
Now, my wife saw most of it.
I have not seen most of it.
I saw some of it and I'm like, wow.
But when we were driving toward the kibbutzes near the Gaza border, you know, you get a deja vu because you've seen those streets before.
So the fact that we had seen the videos kind of brought it back to life.
Then, when I was talking to this woman, Lishai Miran, a young mom, and her husband, Omri Miran, by the way, happily reunited, I'm glad to say, now with his two children, but after a heartbreaking two-year captivity, as I'm talking to Lishai Miran, she's talking about the Hamas monsters came in through the window.
They were in my little house.
We ran into the safe room.
Live Footage Bringing It Back To Life00:02:42
Suddenly, my wife is like gesticulating at me.
And what she tells me as soon as I completed that conversation is, we have the actual footage of her house, and we have the actual footage of the Hamas terrorists in her house.
So, you know, normally as a documentary filmmaker, if somebody tells you a story like this, you have to hire actors to recreate the scene to give the audience a certain feeling of what it might have been like.
And I've done that in my earlier movies, particularly with historical episodes.
But it is very unusual where someone will describe a home invasion and you just happen to have the actual footage.
I mean, 19 kibbutz were rated.
We don't have the footage of 19 kibbutzes.
We have the footage of maybe two, and it happened to be her house.
So when she's being interviewed, you actually see the live footage of what the events that she's describing.
I mean, for me as a filmmaker, that is like you cannot get better than that.
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That's amazing.
It is amazing.
And you talked to one woman, a lovely young woman who I guess lost her lover in the attacks.
And she talks about lying under the bodies of the people in the sort of bus stop-like protective place they were in.
Just a nightmare.
And that kept her alive.
And yet, and yet, both of these women were so humane in their reactions.
Humane Reactions Amid Tragedy00:03:53
It was kind of startling.
I mean, it was not this kind of anger or this hatred that here in America we have this kind of anger and hatred over like taxes and things like this.
And they had suffered so deeply, and yet they seemed to remain, I don't know, just humane and present in ways that shocked me.
This has caused me to admire the people of Israel as a people.
I mean, I've now been three times, I'm probably going to go twice next year.
The last time I went, we went to the opening of the Pilgrimage Road.
Debbie and I have been donors to that for a couple of years, three years now.
And so we're there at this lovely event.
Well, when you're eating dinner, you get sirens and everybody has to run out of the restaurant and basically go to a safe place.
And so we're standing with one of the waiters in one of the restaurants and this young woman, maybe in her 20s, and we say, you know, man, like, how do you, how do you live like this?
You know, and she just looks up at us and very kind of with kind of very clear expression, she goes, well, we have to.
And that just sort of sense that life goes on, we're not going to let it destroy our lives.
We're not going to be emotionally or spiritually defeated by it.
Very admirable attitude.
And so Israel was to me admirable both in the sense of I feel like I'm in the land of the Bible.
You know, many other cities these days, you go to Stockholm, you go to Copenhagen, you go to Zurich.
They're homogenized.
They look all the same.
They're almost interchangeable, except for a few street signs and things.
But Jerusalem is not like that.
And the people of Israel, I think, strike me as a very resilient people.
And I'm impressed by that fact.
Yeah, no, they're very impressed, very tough people, and yet not tough to the point of being inhumane.
You go into the city of David, which I was in Israel only once, and I don't think it was open yet, the city of David archaeological site.
And there's a scene in it.
There was on the temple, there is a lintel at the bottom of one door where I suddenly realized that Jesus must have stepped on this lintel.
And I found that an enormously powerful experience you have seen, where I guess you're down by the Siloam pool where you say to the guy, would Jesus have walked here?
And he said, 100%.
The look on your face reminded me of the way I felt.
It is a powerful thing to be in those biblical places.
Well, you know, in Israel, there are some archaeological sites that are disputed.
That's not uncommon.
Scholars will argue, you know, Sodom is over here and Gomorrah is over there.
And somebody else goes, no, it's at the bottom end of the Dead Sea.
And so there are some controversies over where something may have happened.
And so that's why I asked Bornstein, I go, well, what are the actual chances that Jesus walked this exact road on these exact stones?
And he goes, well, it's a certainty.
It's 100%.
Why?
Because he's an out-of-town Jew.
The Jews that lived in Jerusalem had their own small mikvahs.
They could step into their own little ritual baths and cleanse themselves.
But if you came from out of town, you had to go to the public bath.
That's the pool of Saloon.
You had to walk that road.
And there are also so many scenes in the Bible that on the face of it, the Bible talks, for example, about going, ascending to the temple.
Now, for many years, I thought of that in spiritual terms as some sort of an ascent.
It's a spiritual journey.
Oh, no.
It's like a half-mile climb.
It's a hike.
And these pilgrims in the dust, in the heat, are walking.
They're ascending in a very literal sense.
At one point, the Bible talks about Mary and Joseph losing their kid at the age of 12 and then finding him disputing with some rabbis in the temple.
Ascending Pilgrims00:10:21
Well, how do you lose your kid?
Answer when you have a massive procession of tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people going up this densely packed road, people exchanging coins, selling doves, selling food.
It's really easy to lose your kid.
And so the Bible, in a sense, becomes real for you when you are in Israel.
And I wanted to convey the urgency of that and the power of that.
When I encountered the biblical archaeology, I'm like, I don't know why this is not being shouted from the rooftop of every synagogue and every church, you know, in the country, in the world.
And yet it's not.
I mean, you'll hear a teaching on Jeremiah from a pastor, and he won't tell you that there's been amazing archaeological findings so that this prophet, who you would think has left absolutely no footprint on the sands of time, can now be 100% corroborated by modern archaeology.
Yeah, amazing.
In the film, you show Caiaphas' bones.
I mean, it makes your head explode.
It's just amazing stuff.
So before I run out of time, talk to me a little bit about how you get a film made.
I mean, this is something you've done very well and you've been successful at it.
So obviously you have a smoother road than the guy just starting out.
But I'm looking for people to start doing this more if they have talent.
And instead of writing to me or writing to other people saying, help me, help me.
Where do you start?
Well, I think The difficulty on the conservative side, on our side, is that making a film requires you to be able to do four or five things that don't normally go well together.
There's fundraising.
That's one element.
Then there is a sort of a little bit of legal work to set up your film company.
The third thing is to sort of do the blueprint, not necessarily a script, but to have the powering idea that will drive this film.
Very similar to a book.
You need to have a single cogent idea that is original and interesting, and that's going to be the theme of this film.
The fourth is to actually go out and shoot it.
So in other words, to have production and cinematic skills to put the film together.
And the final part, which is in some ways the hardest, but also one of the hardest, certainly, is the marketing of the film.
So what happens, I think, on the conservative side, I've seen over the last decade or so, you have people who have a lot of money and they want to make a film, but they're not strong in the ideas and they don't know how to make the film.
Or you have people who are very creative and they have really good ideas, but they don't have any money.
Or even if they have the money and they're creative, they have no capacity to market the film.
The film is in a way without an audience.
And so putting these different elements together, I think is really important.
We don't want to have the burden on the filmmaker to do all these things because they're hard to do.
I've figured it out over a dozen years.
But contrast, my fate would say Michael Moore.
He goes to a studio, they go, here's $10 million.
Michael Moore returns with the film and they go, all right, well, on Monday, you're going to be on The View.
Tuesday, you're going to be on Colbert.
Wednesday, it's going to be this and Thursday.
So it's like it's ready-made for Michael Moore.
And that's his easy downhill skiing path.
Whereas on our side, it's more like Sisyphus rolling the stone up the hill.
Yeah, no, it really is tough.
And as you say, it's all that little stuff that you have to do before actually making the film.
Now, where is this film being shown now?
Distribution, it's not the most interesting topic, but it's one of the hardest things to do.
It's actually very hard.
It's very hard because there are certain outlets, notably Netflix, absolutely closed to conservative content.
They won't even look at it.
One of my earlier films, by the way, Netflix paid a million dollars on a 15-year right to use the film.
They took the film, put it on the shelf, never released it.
In other words, they were happy to give us a million bucks to kill our movie and take it out of circulation.
And this is Netflix.
They're extremely ruthless and ideological.
Now, what we do is a combination of things.
We did a limited theatrical release for this film, which did very well.
It's now in streaming.
And the website, if I can mention it, is thedragonsprophecyfilm.com.
You can stream it there.
You can buy DVDs.
By the way, you can buy DVDs on Amazon.
It's the number one DVD in the country.
The film will eventually be on iTunes.
It'll be on Amazon Prime.
So it'll probably have its widest audience when it's the most easy to access, like one click and buy it.
And there'll be some other platforms that are also going to distribute it on a subscriber basis.
So the film is getting out there.
But you are right.
The distribution aspect of the film is difficult these days, particularly because when I started films, I thought it's going to be a difficult job to sell the theaters on taking the film.
It's not so much that anymore.
Today, it's more that people are less willing to go to the theater and they want to watch at home and they're also very habituated to getting content for free.
And so getting people even to pay like five bucks or 10 bucks to watch a film is not easy.
But you've made these films and they've been, some of them have been really successful.
But nobody in Hollywood ever comes to you and says, work for us.
Nobody ever says, be our right-wing Michael Moore.
Well, not only that, but I had good relationships, for example, with Lionsgate.
They distributed my first two films, which made tens of millions of dollars apiece.
And the whole Lionsgate top brass came to the opening of my second film called America.
And they looked at it.
And after the film, they sat me down and they said, you need to make feature films.
They go, this film is so good.
They go, this shows that you fully have the capacity to enter the wider ensemble of genres in filmmaking.
However, fast forward to 2016, really just two years later, the entry of Trump onto the public square sent such a shockwave through Hollywood that Lionsgate wouldn't touch any future project of mine simply because of the presence of Trump.
At that point, I wasn't even closely associated with Trump.
I didn't even have like a pardon from Trump.
I'd never met Trump.
Didn't matter.
The fact that I was seen as on the Trump right essentially disqualified me from being within that Hollywood community.
So people are always asking me, can we reform Hollywood?
And I actually don't even think that's a goal we should have.
I think we should be thinking about how we can make Hollywood and compete with them.
What do you see as the way forward for conservatives from whether financiers or just ordinary people or creators?
What do you think is the best way forward?
Well, films remain a very powerful and popular genre.
People love to watch films and documentaries are more popular than ever.
It used to be 10 years ago when I did my first film on Obama.
I was standing in a food court in one of these malls and I looked over and I go, there's 100 people in this food court.
I go, how many of them will pay 12 bucks to go to a theater to see a documentary?
I bet you not more than three or four.
They'll go see a romantic comedy.
They'll go see a thriller, maybe a superhero film, but a documentary, it's going to be a tough sell.
But I think that documentaries are now very popular and they can do something that books can't do, which is, well, number one, they are show, not tell.
I mean, imagine if I told you about October 7th, a whole different thing than you seeing it.
So films can put you on the scene in very powerful ways.
And the underlying drive of a film, I think, is emotional.
And a film is a story.
So the film, by the nature of it, by the nature of a good film, appeals to the head and the heart.
If you succeed in the entertainment part of the film and you succeed on the emotional side, you can pack the film with intellectual information and a lot of knowledge.
But if you want to put the knowledge in there and you miss the entertainment and you miss the emotional part of it, your film is absolutely lifeless, dead in the water.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So basically, you think people should just actually make stuff.
I mean, that you think is the only way forward.
I think it is, first of all, it is the language of young people to communicate through this visual medium.
And the visual medium has a number of different components.
And of course, there are people who like to watch.
You know, I was once talking to one of my potential investors and he was kind of lecturing me about popular culture.
Oh, Dinesh, you know, he goes, I don't know why you make these 90-minute films.
Most people like to watch like 90 seconds.
That's it.
Our culture is like that.
And I go, well, sir, I actually do make 90-second films.
They're called trailers.
They direct you to want to watch the full film.
And so I do think we need to embrace this multiplicity of visual genres.
But the movie and the documentary, I think, are not going anywhere anytime soon.
Yeah.
Again, Dinesh D'Souza, the film is The Dragon's Prophecy.
I think it's your best film.
I think it was just an absolutely riveting.
Tell us again where people can see it.
The website is thedragonspluralprophecyfilm.com for streaming and DVDs.
Or just go to Amazon and put the name of the film in and it'll pop it up and watch it that way.
Always great to see you, Dinesh.
And congratulations.
It's really good stuff.
And I hope it does really well.
Thank you very much.
I'll see you again.
Dinesh D'Souza.
Always like talking to the guy.
He has been steadfast.
He has been absolutely, you know, he just, he never cracks under the pressure.
They have brought incredible pressure against him.
One of the reasons I respect him so much, but also because he's doing this work that needs to be done.
Watch the Dragon's Prophecy.
You know, you can disagree with it.
You can have all kinds of reactions to it, but you certainly won't be bored by it.
And it'll put some ideas in your head that aren't there now.
It's really worthwhile.
Another thing that's tremendously worthwhile is the Andrew Clavin Show, which is on every Friday.