Spencer Klavan critiques Hollywood’s Jesus Christ Superstar at the Bowl, starring Cynthia Erivo, calling it "anti-Jesus" and dismissing her portrayal as divisive. He blames leftist cultural dominance for stifling irreverent humor, contrasting it with online comedy like Andy Wong’s or Homestarrunner, where playful jokes thrive without backlash. Traditional media’s decline has shifted creativity to platforms like TikTok, while men allegedly retreat from novel writing amid pressures like Tennessee’s "smallest wife" bookstore trend. Klavan frames this as a grassroots rebellion against elite gatekeepers, with AI and niche spaces fueling unfiltered artistic expression. [Automatically generated summary]
Hey everyone, it's Andrew Clavin with this week's interview with my son Spencer Clavin, No Relation.
I always like to talk to Spencer about the culture.
And this summer, for some reason, I've had a lot of more time on my hand because I'm between drafts of a book and I've seen a lot of movies and Spencer has seen all the same movies and we've been talking endlessly about this and I started thinking these are interesting conversations so I thought I'd bring them to you.
It is good to see you, young man, and I should advertise the fact that we have an ongoing and ongoing conversation going on on Substack at the newjerusalem.substack.com.
It's great.
I feel like ridiculous.
It is, isn't it?
It's terrific.
I know.
It's like a very, very good thing.
Yeah, it's every day, very short, you know, one-minute read, maybe two-minute reads, where you write a letter, then I write a letter, and we go back and forth on various things.
It's Monday through Thursday, and then on Friday, we talk about some work of art.
One of us talks about some work of art.
I was reading it this week, and it was all about.
It rocked this week.
It rocked.
Yes.
And, you know, it's actually pretty high up on their faith list on Substack.
They have the faith bestsellers.
We've been making that list every week for the last four or five weeks.
There you go.
And we've gotten toward the top.
It's 100, and we've gotten up to 11 or something like that.
So it is getting people, but people are not paying for it.
So eventually we either will have to take it down because it's too much work to do for free, or we'll have to hunt down the people who are subscribing and just rob their houses.
I mean, seems perfectly reasonable.
I will say there is a conversation.
I mean, one thing that's nice is that it has gotten to a place where it's evolving like a natural conversation, which is really, really hard to do in print.
People may not know.
But the other thing is that because of that, it has a degree, I think, of like openness and weirdness of ideas that you don't find in a lot of places.
Like we do have things we believe.
We're not just sort of playing with every possible random sacrilege, but we are also exploring new ideas in a really fresh way that I really like.
So yeah, people should subscribe to this.
And it's really refreshing after going on X and watching this cesspit of hatred that people come on and say, well, I disagree with that, but I actually, I see where you're going.
You know, all of a sudden it's kind of X?
What do you mean?
I've got no idea what you're talking about.
Also, not only have we been seeing all the same movies, which makes for a good conversation, we also called each other up and we're now wearing the same jacket.
Despite the fact that we're not related at all.
I know.
It's amazing.
It's kind of frightening at this point.
It is.
So talking about X, you put up a thread on X about Jesus Christ superstar, which was a classic clash of a not, I mean, I should mention to the audience, in case they don't know you, you are a PhD in classics from Oxford.
You went to Yale and then Oxford.
You actually have, you're not like your father.
You actually have intelligence and accomplishments.
I think you've got me confused with somebody else, but go on.
Yeah, okay.
But you, but you know the culture really well, which is not something that's very common on the right.
And you went to see, you were in LA and you went to, I guess, the Hollywood Bowl and you saw Jesus Christ superstar starring the lady from Wicked.
What's her name, Arrivo or something?
Oh, yeah, Cynthia Arrivo or Arrivo.
Right.
And so she's a black woman playing Jesus Christ and she's got her head shaved.
And obviously, people on the right quite understandable, standably, are very sensitive about gender confusion, about people dissing Jesus Christ and all this.
But you went and you looked at it and knowing all those things, you thought it was actually pretty good.
Is that fair?
Yeah.
Well, I will say you're absolutely right that conservatives have every reason to bristle at this kind of thing because it's been going on so aggressively for so long.
And every time it happens, it signals a certain degree of hostility to just mainstream people's concerns.
And it's infuriating, I think, that the vast majority of the country believes certain things, certain normal, perfectly straightforward things about like men are men and women are women.
There is a God.
Like for all our differences, we actually have a pretty normy center in this country that believes most of the things that most people throughout most of history have believed, completely unremarkable, even virtuous.
And we have this tiny sliver of the elite who have decided about five minutes ago that those ideas are damnable, contemptible lies.
And anyone who doesn't believe this must be shamed publicly, including people who are discovered to have believed this five minutes ago, which is basically everybody, right?
So it's this regime of fear and shame and intimidation, and it just sucks.
And everybody's sick of it.
And we're all rebelling against it.
So in that climate, it actually is like a kind of dicey thing to cast this woman, Cynthia Rivo, in this role.
And I understand that.
And I know that when I came out in favor of this thing, I was kind of asking for like pushback.
So I don't begrudge anybody that pushback, but I do think I'm right and they're wrong.
And the reason for this is that the show itself, right, Jesus Christ superstar, is not some pure like treasure of hide.
It's not like, oh, we must protect this like great Western, this artifact of Western civilization.
You know, it is, in fact, as you say, garbage.
It's also inherently, the script itself is kind of aggressively anti-Jesus.
Yes, it does humanize Jesus beyond the Christian doctrine that he was man and God.
It just basically says he was a kind of egotistical rock star.
It makes him a rock star.
That's right.
Yeah.
That's right.
And Andrew Lloyd Weber is like a kind of John Lennon style idiot whose music is also quite bad.
And I think Tim Rice does the lyrics and his lyrics are dumb.
All of these things are true.
But it's in the context of that that you have to like approach this musical one way or another.
You know, whether it's a bad version of that or a good version of that or an interesting version of that, like the first thing you have to know is what this thing is.
It's like a 1960s, 70s holdover.
It has not aged well.
And anything you do with it is going to begin from that point of view.
And so my point was not that like you have to like Cynthia Rivo in this show.
My point was that if you want to speak meaningfully into why this show is bad, you have to understand what it is and have a reaction beyond just like black woman, Jesus, bad, right?
Like that is actually not enough.
And you see people posting these pictures and Arivo is a very weird looking person.
She's kind of a kooky theater gal, whatever.
Just to be clear, just to be clear for a minute, she doesn't play Jesus as a black woman.
She plays him as a man.
Well, this is the other thing.
Right.
Yeah.
Good point.
Like important to note, all the pronouns are the same.
And so what's going on here is there's like a statement being made about the piece from within the piece of like who this character is.
And so what that does, weirdly, is it turns Jesus not into this like chest thumping rock star, but into this kind of visionary, diminutive, soft-spoken person in the middle of this enormous, like kind of gaudy, badly written rock opera.
And the point of this casting is actually that Jesus was something else.
Like Jesus was, he has this lyric at one point where he says, like, none of you understand what power is.
None of you understand what love is.
And Arrivo gives this like incredible, she's also, if you should say, like, the most talented singer currently on Broadway.
And so, like, is she herself a goofy doo for this?
100%.
Absolutely.
Is this musical kind of a piece of garbage?
Yes, indeed.
But is there something also going on within the context of that that is like actually remarkably interesting and it kind of works against the impiety of the original material?
Yes, also.
And I think it's important that we kind of know how to, even if we want to say, and that's all crap, we know what we're talking about when we talk about the culture.
That was my own point.
Many people say to me, gee, you don't look over 152.
And it's true.
I look much younger than I am.
And that's because I take care of myself.
Jokes Reveal Cultural Shift00:15:20
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And you say to yourself, hmm, how do I spell that?
It's K-L-A-V-A-N.
Well, you know, the important thing about it, when I was, because I thought it was a brilliant thread, and I haven't seen it, and I haven't seen, I hated that musical when I saw it in the movie, but I haven't seen this version of it.
And I don't like Arrivo as a personality.
She's like, to me, a very costly person.
Extremely off-putting individual, yeah.
But somebody in the people who were attacking you attacked you very angrily.
And one of them said, you know, Jesus was not a black woman.
And I thought, well, no, he wasn't.
And he also wasn't a rose and he air blooming and he also wasn't an apple tree.
But like, the thing is, if he's being embodied in a fresh way and women playing men, Sarah Bernhardt played Hamlet.
I mean, it's not unheard of.
We've seen this before.
It's called acting.
But the thing that was getting me about it is that to do that, and I really do understand that the left has taken the arts and bludgeoned us with their stupid, evil philosophy.
And so we're all pissed off and we should be pissed off.
But the arts are a place where you get to play.
You get to play with reality.
You get to like Hannibal Elector.
You get to think Hannibal Elector is fun.
Hannibal Elector eats people and kills people and tortures women.
But when you watch it in the movies, it's a laugh.
You're having a good time.
And it is, the arts are a kind of playground.
And if as in our anger at politics, some of it completely righteous anger, we lose that sense of fun, we've lost the culture.
We lose everything because ultimately we want to have, we all want to be enjoying life.
Life is short and part of it, one of the things that makes life worth living is the arts, you know?
And I was thinking of this because we both saw the movie, The Naked Gun.
And we both had the exact same reaction to it, about 20 minutes of laughs, kind of referencing the old movies with funny lines like, you know, take a chair, no thanks, I have one at home, you know.
And those, you know, those lines make me laugh and they're funny.
And then it sort of peters out.
And what got me about it was the old movies made jokes about Muslims and made jokes about black people and all this stuff.
And this had no cultural bite at all.
And so the idea was, you know, the idea was kind of like, we can't play anymore.
We're not allowed to play.
Because one side of the political spectrum, us, is so evil that we can't let, you know, no George Floyd jokes, you know, no jokes about like wokeness, nothing like that not happening.
In fact, when Dave Chappelle and who's the other guy from the office, from the British office, Gervais, Jerry Gervais, made jokes about transgender people and defied the wokeness.
They then actually both made specials about how legendary they were for having done that.
And I thought, like, you know, give me a break.
You should be doing it every, every word out of your mouth should be offending everybody.
I don't know if you're a comedian.
And so when we were talking about this, you made this point about Greek comedy, which made me laugh because it's no longer fun because you know the Greek comics.
Right.
Everyone, when you start talking about Greek comedy, everyone immediately groans because you're about to like embark.
And look, like, I think the first thing you have to say about a lot of old comedy, ancient comedy, is that it doesn't hold up.
Some of it does, but most, a lot of it just doesn't make you laugh anymore.
And this thing that you're saying about like cultural fear is so important.
And it's what makes this moment, I think, so delicate because you really have been living under this oppressive regime.
And as you say about Naked Gun, it's like it makes this posture of irreverence.
It's the same thing with the late night hosts.
They have this posture of irreverence.
Like we're going to speak truth to power and we're going to say the F-word and we're going to yell at Trump.
And isn't that funny?
And like even South Park has kind of done this, where they pretend to be taking shots at the most dangerous target, but they're actually taking shots at the softest, most obvious targets and doing everything in their power to avoid the real, obvious, hilarious naked emperor in the room, which is George Floyd, which is trans, which is BL.
I mean, these are hilarious cons that have been run at a national level, extremely low-hanging fruit.
And the reason that people can't talk about them is because they are actual sacred cows.
Like they're actually being protected.
And so one thing about ancient comedy that is actually, that's really interesting is like ancient comedy is not funny for a different reason, which is that it's making jokes about things that we don't have anymore.
It's got all of these cultural touchstones, cultural references in it, like the clever slave or the overbearing father-in-law that make you say, well, we don't have those.
Like there are no slaves and father-in-laws don't run the household anymore.
So it reveals something important about comedy, which is that it depends on everyone kind of agreeing on the culture.
We call this a monoculture, right?
You need some shared background to like poke fun of.
And it's become frequent and common recently to say that there is no monoculture, right?
We don't have a monoculture because the internet has split us all up and we're so partisan and divided.
And so there's nothing, there is no shared cultural background that we can poke fun of.
That's actually not true.
We have a monoculture.
It's just unacceptable to the people that make big budget movies.
This is the thing.
Yeah, their mission has been to make their 10% seem to us like 90%.
And, you know, most people, and I think this certain positive aspect of this, most people trust the opinion makers.
You know, they may like this one better than that one, but they go to the movies and they trust that the people making the movies share their values to some degree.
And if they have something that they're worried about, that they should be worried about it too.
And they've gone out of their way to make us think that we are not united.
And I have been saying, I've been saying for 20 years, 70% of Americans agree on 70% of the issues.
And I think the thing is, it's this little sliver of people who have, because before the internet, were able to take over every single aspect.
It's why they wanted to kill Elon Musk, because Elon Musk didn't say, I support right-wingers.
He just said, I'm going to let everybody speak.
And like, they thought, no, no, once you do that, you know, it's like tearing away the curtain in the Wizard of Oz.
And so I think like that, what hobbled this movie, The Naked Gun, was that it couldn't make fun of things that everybody makes fun of transgender people.
Everybody makes fun of sex.
Everybody makes fun of women and men and all this stuff.
And it's just like, you know, it's supposed to be like, that's supposed to be what you do in the arts is play, you know, as you play.
Yeah, yeah.
And just acknowledge like the realities that we maybe feel uncomfortable about or whatever.
It's like, you know, it is the place where you're supposed to be able to do that.
And we are living through a normal people's revolution.
You've been saying this for a while.
I am calling, I think I called it that in like 2023 or something, like shortly before the Trump victory.
And I actually think that President Trump, who of course listens to everything you and I say very closely, has said this, that he's on the side of the normal people, right?
And it really is, it's not political in the sense of being like right or left.
And it's hard to wrap your head around this if you talk about politics and think a lot about politics.
Like the Republicans and the right wing kind of do are the only available vehicle for normal people to make their voices heard.
But that doesn't mean that normalcy is the same thing as conservatism or the right or many of the things that like you and I care about and stand for.
It really is just normalcy.
And we've been living through this kind of uprising, especially online, right?
Online is where you can make the unmakable jokes.
And it's like people are on TikTok just sort of saying these things outright.
And the other really important thing is like everybody knows that there's no malice in it.
Like it is what part of this campaign of fear is convincing you that if you say something that can be misinterpreted, like you're a bad person, right?
If you say something that I find racist, like you must have racism in your heart.
And the reality is that one thing normal people kind of understand is that unless there is a like, unless they come out and they like really write it on the door, like we hate you because you are this or that.
Like most people make jokes about things actually as a show of love, like as a kind of gesture of inclusion, especially among men, like if you want to joke and poke fun and things.
And so that's been going on online and it's been kind of making its way into mainstream culture.
I think this was the Sidney Sweeney ad set people off so much when she had that jeans commercial a couple weeks back.
All of these culture makers were so furious because everyone could see that there was absolutely nothing in any way harmful about it.
It was the most obvious normal thing in the world, a hot girl wearing jeans making a joke about her jeans.
is completely straightforward and i do think yeah that like the the hopeful side of this is is that the the uh stranglehold that the culture makers have had on the discourse is is so broken now that you're starting to see real comedy make its way back into the world and it's getting closer and closer to kind of the mainstream of the culture as well as the mainstream of of reality which is like pretty hopeful People are funny.
You know, this is the other thing.
I've always said, like, you know, when you go online and people make jokes, not just the right, but everybody.
When individuals make jokes, they're funnier than the guys, the 20 people who've been writing the late night show, which is obviously a sclerotic institution that needs to go.
And it's just we're, you know, we're looking at something that I looked at when I was a kid, which is like, you know, of course we have to crank the TV and put coal in it to make it work.
But that little leprechaun inside was talking about the idea.
But still, but still, you know, it's done, it's finished.
But this thing, individuals making jokes, it is funny.
And now I'm seeing stuff, and you send me stuff all the time from Instagram and things like that, where people just make this stuff and you look at it and think, that's creative.
It's more creative than what you see in the movies.
Everyone has like one buddy at least that makes you laugh more than whoever is running late night.
Like even back in the Letterman days, I think this was true.
I, of course, was not yet born because I am a youthful flower.
But even back when Late Night was kind of a cultural institution, it was commonplace to say, you know, my uncle makes funnier jokes than this guy.
And they kind of played at this advantage, which was there was only one delivery system, right?
And you had to kind of make that delivery system as universally available and appealing as possible.
And that meant market testing and it meant these like really close barriers on what you could say and all of this stuff.
And there was a time when that stuff actually made sense.
And then I think what happened is like those barriers fell away.
In the days of like early YouTube, you know, suddenly your hilarious uncle could make his funny joke to a crowd of millions.
And the old media like kept doing the thing that they were doing before, which is like trying to police the boundaries of what was acceptable speech and like what would what would play and what wouldn't offend anybody.
Except that now they were just one among a million possible options.
And it turned out that like their view was getting narrower and narrower until they just thought that everyone besides them was like the evil anti-democratic rabble.
And there was this weird phenomenon.
When you were little, you used to watch this thing.
You weren't that little, but you were pretty small, I guess.
You used to watch this thing called Strong Bad.
And I used to look over your shoulder and weep with laughter.
I thought it was one of the funniest things I ever saw.
And I remember talking- Homestarrunner.com, shout out to our guys.
Yeah.
And I remember talking to a friend of mine, a guy you know, won't name him on the ever.
He's a Hollywood guy, Dan.
And he had a kid, I guess, a little younger than you, but about the same age.
And he was watching Strong Bad.
And these two old dads got into this conversation.
Are you watching what these kids are watching?
Yeah.
And they're hilarious, but it's random.
We kept using the word random, you know, because these kids like the random stuff, because it didn't look like anything we had ever seen before.
Was not funny in ways that we had been funny.
And what was strange about that show, and I know they made certain choices where they decided not to market it in a bigger way.
But what was strange about that is it kind of didn't make it into the mainstream.
And I kind of feel like it was shut down because it was too much of a wild hare.
You know, it was like, South Park kind of survived.
And South Park, I mean, they got canceled.
They got censored when they went after Muslims, which was really shameful.
And I remember Jon Stewart didn't want to stand up for them because he said, I don't want to bite the hand that feeds me, meaning Comedy Central.
And I just thought that whole thing was shameful.
But at least South Park has had that kind of raucous voice.
But why should it be so out there?
When I think of mainstream, Jack Benny was always this interesting guy.
He's before even my time, although I think maybe he was alive when I was alive.
But Jack Benny did Jewish comedy, but he never mentioned that he was Jewish.
Jon Stewart's Warning00:02:45
And so he played, he was Ben Shapiro.
He played the violin.
He was interested in money.
Except he was funny.
Sorry.
No.
You know, he was kind of a smaller guy and all this stuff.
And he had his funniest line was, a guy sticks him up.
And this is on radio comedy.
And a guy holds him on and says, your money or your life.
And there's just this long pause.
And the guy says, well, he says, I'm thinking.
And now that was a greedy Jewish joke, but because he never mentioned it was Jewish, it was just a greedy joke, you know, and that was kind of such an American thing to do.
All of that.
Well, one of these guys that I sent you from Instagram, and Instagram, I'm already out of touch as a now cringe millennial because I'm basically just getting secondhand TikTok, but I still have like a slight concern for my psychic hygiene stuff.
And you're not speaking Chinese, which I think is good.
Right, no.
And so I can't understand half the stuff that's going on on TikTok.
But I get kind of like the best stuff from TikTok via Instagram Reels.
And one of the guys I sent you is this guy, Andy Wong, who does that comedy about Chinese people.
He's the kind of like, you know, if the guy you're describing was the Jewish joke guy, this guy is the Chinese joke guy.
And he does these really over-the-top like Mandarin accents.
He has the his one joke that I just love is like, if Adam and Eve were Asian, and he does it all in this very, very, if Adam and Eve wait Asian.
And then it's the joke is that they wouldn't have eaten the apple because they would have just eaten the snake instead and then the bats and then like God and the angels are getting discussed.
Right.
And so that like, and this is what I mean about everyone can tell that that's completely good natured.
And it was the same thing with, you mentioned the brothers chaps, I think they were called, who did Homestar Runner, who you're right, were very zany out there early internet, much less like kind of understandable than Andy Wong.
But like all of these kinds of like amateur comedy, upstart comedy, like what they, I feel like what they have in common is they're, they're not trying to satisfy, they're not, they don't care about quote unquote biting the hand that feeds them, right?
I mean, that is such a telling quote from Jon Stewart because it like it's death to comedy.
Like the minute you're saying that, you know that it might take a year, it might take 10 years, but you are the air is going to go out of your sales if you're thinking about that.
And if you're not thinking about that, if you're literally just thinking about, well, like, what's the most hilarious thing?
You're going to come up with some hilarious stuff that will be a little bit edgy, that will be like out there or whatever.
Tool Time London00:05:51
But everyone can tell, and we all know that there isn't like aggression in it.
There's not hate in it.
This is something that Americans have been doing since time immemorial.
It has roots in like Mark Twain is kind of one of our greatest writers, maybe our greatest novelist in American history, I think.
And he does this all the time, speaks actual truth to actual power.
Yeah, you're seeing this huge groundswell of this stuff now.
And people are starting to wonder, like younger people, I think, Gen Z and below are starting to wonder, like, why would I go to the movies?
Like, why would I watch late night?
Why should I care that it's going away?
You know, art is the way people talk to one another.
And like, there's different times when different arts are the vehicle.
So in the 20th century in America, for most of the 20th century, it was the movies.
That's how the culture talked to itself.
You know, if you go to London, even today, even today, the theater in London is a thing.
People will say, oh, there's this new play, especially in London, where's where all the intellectual life of the country takes place.
People will talk about the theater.
So it still has a living presence that it doesn't have here, really.
Here, the vitality that matters.
And this is what the movies have lost, by the way.
Even in my lifetime, like when I was a kid, it used to be that there were movies you kind of had to see in order to be in on this.
Yeah, nothing like that.
And that's like not the case.
I don't think I've seen anything, despite the fact that there have been good movies this summer.
Like, I don't think.
And our friend, yeah, it doesn't mean there won't be good movies.
It just means there's not going to be, they're not going to be the first place people go to discuss things.
You know, I saw something, our friend Mary Harrington, who's very, very brilliant.
You know, she wrote, said something about, oh, novels are a woman's art form and the men are going to leave and do something else.
And I thought, yeah, when women take something over, it means it's over, you know?
But it's true that the novel started as a female form.
And then when it became the big thing, the men came and did it.
And now they are deserting.
It's true.
And everyone is now writing these big think pieces about like, where has the great male novelist gone?
Right.
And the right laments it and the left is sort of celebrating it.
Well, they're bans of them.
They won't even publish this.
That's right.
It's such a great mystery, right?
It's like the pieces in the New York Times about why are men not like taking an active role in relationships anymore.
Gee, I can't possibly think.
Maybe let me let me to figure this out, to investigate, let me, let me read the last 10 years of op-eds in the New York Times about how evil men are when they do this.
So that's like one dimension of it.
But I will say, like, I went to a local bookstore here in Tennessee recently.
And I'm, as, as perhaps has become clear, like, we both have fairly small C Catholic tastes.
Like, I'm not against reading, like, I like novels by women about women.
Yeah, totally.
But having said that, I walked into this store and it was like the estrogen hit me in the face like a heat wave.
Like it was like, you know, every book on the front table was sort of like the small things we know to be small.
The wife, the smallest wife.
And that is like definitely a sign that something has some air has gone out of the form.
Whereas, yeah, this sort of weird, fractious online stuff.
I mean, another thing that fascinates me right now about the culture is AI horror shorts.
Yeah.
I played some of the ones you sent me on the show.
These little kind of evocative, they have a lot of what I loved about old video games, that they were kind of just like hinting at the outline of a story.
It's funny how all of this is taking place under an enormous hype battle, this just like sound and fury over whether AI is going to become human or replace artists or whatever.
All of that just seems like totally beside the point because we can all see kind of the reasons, I think, why AI is structurally incapable of real creativity.
But we can also see the ways in which it can facilitate creativity in this amazing way.
It's a tool.
It's a great tool.
Yeah, it's an incredible tool.
And people that use it are using it to do all sorts of stuff.
Like, I think in 20 years, nobody's going to be talking about the movies that came out this summer.
They're going to be talking about the artists that were getting started on TikTok.
As far as I'm concerned, we have to stop, unfortunately, but as far as I'm concerned, it's like termites.
The artists who are working on TikTok and, you know, and Instagram and the internet in general are like termites that have actually eaten away the structure.
And the people sitting on the top just don't know that it's about to go and a whole new culture is about to be born.
I got to stop there.
You know, we've been having these conversations all summer.
I thought we should share them.
If you enjoy that, go to thenewjerusalem.substack.com.
We continue our conversations there.
We even sometimes meet up and talk to each other in person, but you can't be there for that.
So go to the New Jerusalem.
We would be very alarmed if you turned out that our husband.
It's great to see you.
And I will see you soon.
Spencer Clavin, you will find him all the way.
Where can people find you?
I should add, besides the New Jerusalem.substack.
Yeah, I'm on X at Spencer Clavin.
There you go.
And I have another subset called rejoice evermore.substack.
And you can join the people screaming at him because that terrific.
It's the national pastime.
All right.
I'll see you later.
See ya.
Once again, that was my son, Spencer Clavin, no relation, talking about the culture.
And you should come on to thenewjerusalem.substack.com to get more of our conversations.