Spencer Klavan’s Light of the Mind, Light of the World argues that culture thrives on absolute truth, not dogma—criticizing conservatives for ignoring high art while fixating on classical texts. He contrasts America’s pop-culture-driven works (like Stephen King) with Europe’s novel tradition, stressing the trivium’s role in shaping excellence. The multiverse, he claims, erodes artistic meaning by rejecting moral coherence, yet Christian art should embrace complexity like Job’s suffering rather than enforce rigid narratives. Klavan’s vision frames greatness as joyful, urging deeper engagement over modern education’s hollow relativism. [Automatically generated summary]
Hey, it's Andrew Clavin with this week's interview with my son, Spencer Clavin, no relation.
He is associate editor of the Claremont Review of Books and the author of Light of the Mind, Light of the World, which if you haven't read it, read it.
It's a wonderful, wonderful book about science and religion, probably the best book about science and religion out there.
I want to talk to Spencer about something that conservatives don't talk about half enough, which is high culture, the classics, our literary and philosophical heritage going back to the Bible and the Greeks and the Romans and all the rest.
And when I think about this, there's this old joke that comes into my mind about a woman who gets married and she plans to become a homemaker.
And she and her new husband get in the car with the cans tied to the back and the just married sign, and they start driving away.
And as they're driving away, the woman leans out the window and she shouts to her mother, hey, mom, how do you cook?
And I sometimes feel when I'm talking to conservatives that they're the same way about this.
They learn, they go to college, they learn about business, they learn political science, maybe they learn about STEM or whatever.
Then they go around and watch Star Wars movies.
And then suddenly when they find the culture is collapsing around them, they're like, hey, mom, what book should I read?
You know, they're like, suddenly I want to know how to quickly inject culture into their arms when really culture is something that you have to be a cultured person.
It has to be a part of your life.
So as I talk about on my show all the time, we're in a moment of vibe shift where I think hopefully we're about to reclaim the culture in a lot of ways.
And I think in order to do that, we should know who we are, where we came from, and why we think the things we do.
And I'm thinking about how we get to that point when we're clearly not at that point right now.
And I don't think the left is anymore at that point.
I think they've been schooled into ignorance as well.
And so I want to talk about how we can serve this great tradition that's been passed down to us.
And Spencer Clavin, once again, is the author of Light of the Mind, Light of the World, which is, I mean, basically, the guy's a polymath.
What do you speak, like 15 languages at this point?
It's like it's depressing.
Sure.
I just feed it into the chat bot at this point.
I don't really, you know, I claim to speak them, but I've been using ChatGPT for a long time now.
I'm very disappointed because when you said we were going to talk about high culture, I assumed you meant legalized marijuana.
I was like, yeah, man, Jacob Paul Marley.
I know, I know.
I was getting my Rastafarian threads out.
I was very excited.
Well, we can get to that.
We'll maybe get stoned as we talk, so it'll be...
Maybe we'll just get stoned by the subject matter.
So...
So I'm going to put forward a radical idea that I let you deal with it as you may.
Great.
I'm used to that.
That's my whole upbringing.
You're like living proof of the genetics is a complete fabrication.
I was like, how you came out of it.
I don't understand.
I'm an update.
I'm a sophomore.
It's the Clavin 2.0.
It's true.
So when I was your age, I read this new author, Stephen King, and I thought, wow, this guy is unbelievable.
This is unbelievable.
And I like ghost stories.
This guy's terrifying.
He's great.
He's really good.
And I remember somebody called him a post-literary writer.
But what I thought King understood and what I understood by reading him was that he wrote as if our heritage was not the Greeks and Romans and not Shakespeare, but it was comic books and commercials because this is who Americans are.
And that was a very brilliant insight.
And he would, you know, I remember he had a line about somebody's face getting mashed up so badly it looked like hamburger helper.
And like instead of worrying about whether people would understand what hamburger helper was 50 years from now, he just decided, I'm just going to write into the culture as it is.
So when I look at American.
Sheer poetry.
What's that?
Yeah.
She's shear poetry.
Yes.
Well, I don't think he cared, but he was like, when I look at American culture, I think things we're really good at are musical comedy and detective stories and Westerns and sci-fi.
Why do we need Homer and Shakespeare?
What do we need Homer and Shakespeare for?
Well, because you can't even do sci-fi well without Homer and Shakespeare.
I think that's maybe the first answer.
We're most like the Romans in this way.
And we're like the Romans in a lot of ways.
I mean, the American Republic is modeled after the Roman Republic.
The founders were very interested in Roman civilization.
And that came with lots of good things, like that republican virtue that we all admire and love as conservatives, but it also comes with a bunch of anxieties and drawbacks.
And one of them is this cultural anxiety.
The Romans had a sort of inferiority complex when it came to the Greeks, who in Athens during the 5th century BC especially had produced worldwide triumphs of culture.
I mean, things that really stand among maybe the top five civilizations ever to produce, you know, the tragedies and philosophy, Socrates, Euripides, Eumenides, right?
When you go to your tailor, he still talks about these guys.
But the Romans, you know, they were always a little bit uneasy about those hoity-toity Greeks.
On the one hand, they felt that they were superior morally, that they had kind of, you know, surpassed these Greek aesthetes with their wine and all of their sort of debauchery.
On the other hand, they felt very cowed by the sort of sophistication and the philosophical erudition of some of the philosophers that would come and visit the capital city.
And this is basically our relationship with England and with Europe more generally, right?
I mean, we are, you know, good, hardy Americans rightly feel that, you know, America is kind of where it's at.
We're more vital.
We're taking the traditions of the West forward into the future.
But we can't deny that there's, for instance, the great tradition of the European novel that we've always sort of struggled to say, like, what's the great American novel, right?
And you're right, like a lot of our original productions are also pop culture productions.
They're things, you mentioned the musical, I would say jazz movies, right?
All of these things that at their best really do transcend, and I think some of them will endure, if anything endures past the digital apocalypse or the EMP pulse that takes us all out.
But like, you know, there's good stuff in the American canon, but it is more lowbrow or it feels more lowbrow.
And I think here of like Virgil, the great Roman poet who basically takes Homer and turns him into something new for the Augustan age.
And I guess the first thing I would say is like, unless you understand that we are in that position, that we are this mighty civilization at the end of a long history, that we're the latest thing in a long tradition, and hopefully we carry that tradition forward, you won't even know where your ideas come from or how to evaluate things or how to tell the difference between high art and low art or how to make good stuff in the context of the moment.
So I guess the first thing is that we're not just kind of a pop culture civilization.
We're a civilization that doesn't know there's anything other than pop culture.
Women's Literary Potential00:04:49
So that makes it really hard for us to like operate intelligently or even to value the things that we do have.
Yeah, you know, the other day somebody misquoted me saying on X misquoted me saying that I didn't think women could write novels as well as men, which is not at all what I said.
Women have written some of the greatest novels ever written.
But what I said was when you compile a list of maybe the 10 greatest novelists, meaning people who just turned out great, like Dickens, who just turned out every book he wrote was somehow great, the only one who really fits into that was Jane Austen.
And of course, yeah, but could she wield a great sword?
That's the real question.
She was a little slow with the sword.
He kept falling.
Exactly.
That's what I'm saying.
But people immediately feel like I'm insulting them.
And it wasn't at all.
I have nothing but respect for the great women novels, but that.
very, very high top tier, you know, is really Jane Austen.
And people started saying, you know, what about this one and this one?
They started out with George Elliott, where, you know, I mean, listen, Middle March is one of my favorite novels.
I don't think anything else she did lives up to it.
But at least there's something.
But by the time they were finished, what about Twilight?
You know, it's like, what about Gone with the Wind?
And I was like, and Tony Morrison, who's just like a good novelist, you know, but she's not a great novelist.
I mean, it's like, I thought they really don't know the difference, which is only because they haven't read all this stuff.
And I, I mean, I'm constantly getting this when I try to promote my books on conservative media.
They say, why should I read the novel?
You know, and I always think like, why should you take a walk?
Why should you fall in love?
Why should you breathe air?
Why should you look at a sunset?
Yeah.
So, well, I mean, this is something I'm always telling people.
You know, I teach college courses and there's this whole thing now that kids come to college without ever really having read a book cover to cover.
Never mind if it's Twilight or Middle March.
They've just, you know, they're so TikTok addled and they're so addicted to AI now that this, I mean, this doesn't really describe my students who are very virtuous and diligent, but it is certain that you can see it happening, that people are coming just totally hollowed out, totally deprived of their inheritance.
And what I always say is, look, you just need to read way more than you think you do.
When you go to the gym for the first time, you think, man, like I really crushed that one-plate bench press.
I bet I'm going to look like way bigger next time I look in the mirror.
And you look at it, and you suddenly realize, like, oh, no, you've got to do that like a million times, right?
And I think we're in a similar position when it comes to reading.
It's like, oh, yeah, I read The Brothers Karamazov or whatever.
And then people come to me and they say, great, so like, what's next on the list?
And I always say, like, no, you just keep, now you just keep doing that forever, all the time.
It becomes like breathing.
And it is, because it's a great pleasure and because high culture genuinely does feed the soul, gradually you start to realize this, it becomes an entire part of your universe.
But one thing it does, and you're making me think about this as you talk about, you know, our kind of American moment, is when you have a sense of the tradition, when you realize that, well, okay, first there was epic poetry and then there was tragedy and then gradually, eventually down the line, you get the novel, right?
And the movies come along and all of that.
Then you understand that not everyone has to do everything all the time.
In democracies, we think that I always have to be as good as everybody else.
And if you say, for instance, that men tend to be more, more of the greater novelists tend to be men, people take this as an insult to women because they think that for women to be of value, women have to be able to do everything, right?
They have to have all rules.
And I think we treat our culture the same way.
We say like, we have to, in order to care about American culture, we have to be just the same as the Europeans.
But if you have ownership over the whole tradition and if you genuinely love the stuff that went before, you can say, well, we don't need to be the Europeans because the Europeans were the Europeans, right?
And now we're going to take that.
We're going to make something fresh with it that aspires to kind of an American style of greatness.
And that's what I don't think we've kind of cracked.
You know, when I was a young hobo and I was hoboing around the country, I was constantly.
As opposed to the old hobo that you are now.
Yeah, as opposed to the old ragged hobo.
But I was constantly meeting people, and it was a very formative time because I was an East Coast kid who grew up in this East Coast culture.
And I suddenly realized all the things that people said about the Midwest and the South and all were all untrue.
You know, there were wonderful people all over the country and many nicer people when he got away from the coast, I thought.
But I kept hearing this again and again, and I still hear it.
People saying, well, I'm not smart, but I sometimes think this.
And then the next thing they would say would be very smart.
Shaping Qualia: The Art of Feeling Younger00:05:54
And what they meant was, I don't have the credentials.
I don't have these credentials.
So what would it look like?
You teach college, and I think the fact that you don't teach all the great colleges is insane.
But you teach college, what would it look like to give an ordinary person, what would it take and what would it look like to give an ordinary person a sense that, okay, I'm not a scholar, but I know what my culture is.
What would that take?
What would that look like?
Yeah, part of the problem, and we're facing this now, I think, is that the answer to this question used to begin in elementary school.
And I think that the people that really are changing the world in this respect are like moms, you know, homeschool moms and parents that send their kids to classical schools who realize that, as the ancients were very fond of observing, the soul gets shaped very young, right?
I mean, now we talk about neuroplasticity, which is basically just the scientific version of what Aristotle talked about when he talked about habituation, that the pathways of the soul, the things we love, do get shaped early.
And so ideally, what we'd be talking about is a return, I think, to what they used to call the trivium, which is this sense that before you can really like leap into, before you're a fully formed, like reasoning person, you need schooling in how to think, how to speak, and how to persuade.
And this is the logic, grammar, and rhetoric.
These are the sort of three arts of the trivium.
And that's supposed to be like the operating system that you install in your soul so that you can then do what the ancients actually thought of as mathematics, but it was much bigger than like our math.
It also included astronomy and science and all of the things that involve studying the natural world.
There was history eventually at this point and literature.
And all of it fell under this idea of philosophy, right?
So the first thing is that you have this map of what you're trying to do.
The way the ancients described it is that you were training yourself to love excellent things and to hate not excellent things or to reject bad things, basically.
And you actually can school your soul in doing this from a very early age.
At that point, you need to know, I think, where your tradition comes from.
So you need to read the Bible cover to cover, not as a matter of evangelism, although of course there's that too, but just because our very language is still shaped by the King James Bible.
It's still the apple of my eye.
Any number of phrases that we use all the time come from there.
And you should read a couple plays by Shakespeare.
You should read the four classic dialogues of Plato.
You don't need a huge reading list, a huge syllabus to feel oriented in kind of the culture that created yours.
But the key is, and this is the fun trick that teachers like me use all the time, is that once you get people through that basic curriculum, the point is not that they've read some list of books.
The point is that by regular contact with great minds and with these kind of soul-expanding works, you've developed a taste for them, just the same way that by the time you go to the gym, like, you know, for a year, you actually feel worse if you don't do it.
And so I think the first thing is to just like reconfigure, you know, rewrite the narrative and stop thinking about like, you know, what are the five books that I need to read so that I can like do the culture, like that woman who wanted to become a housewife.
And instead, start thinking about like, how do I shape my soul, right?
We're all born with certain equipment.
We are wherever we are.
How do I shape my soul to love what is noble and to reject everything else?
That's what education is supposed to be about.
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How do you spell Clavin?
I forgot.
I probably should take some of this stuff.
I'm talking to Spencer Clavin, no relation, who is the author of Light of the Mind, Light of the World, a wonderful, wonderful book about science and religion, the history of science and how it guided us away from religion when it shouldn't have been.
Moral Universe Framework00:10:58
We should talk a little bit about religion, in fact.
I mean, you and I collaborate on a substack called the New Jerusalem.
And we started out the New Jerusalem with a statement.
I mean, we each add something to it every weekday, or one of us, one or the other of us adds something every weekday.
And we started out saying, this is going to be a conversation about God in a transhuman world.
And after about a year, we started to find, you know what, this is, in some ways, this is a little bit too easy because the people who believe in God will listen to us and the people who don't believe in God will not.
And so in some ways, we're, in some ways, it kind of is insular.
Not that we shouldn't be talking about God, but the fact that what we are talking about is God.
And we've been discussing this kind of behind the scenes and talking about the fact that we want to talk more about the culture.
And one of the things that I find really frustrating, I suppose, is the word I'm looking for, at least complex.
I mean, I wrote The Kingdom of Cain because I wanted people to understand that what most people have been writing about for the last 2,000 years is God.
I mean, most artists are writing about living in a world with God in it because we live in a world with God in it.
And so that assumption has been sucked out of the world, and yet the truth of it remains true.
And so what I'm wondering about is can people become cultured without some sense of what it means to believe in God.
I think the answer, you'll not be surprised, is no, right?
I mean, there has to be, in order to produce art, right?
You need a sense of truth.
Just like in order to produce math, you need a sense of facts, right?
If I can't say that one plus one equals two, how am I going to evaluate like whether the Lorentz transformation works or not?
Like the whole thing depends on this kind of supposition, and it is an assumption or supposition in the background of everything else that you do.
And it is tricky because when you talk about this, we are both Christians.
That is to say, we have a very particular theology.
But you actually don't have to get that far in order to have this conversation, right?
We're not yet talking about the perpetual virginity of Mary or the resurrection from the dead or any of that.
We're talking about what the ancient philosophers would have described as natural theology and natural reason, right?
What are the things that using your brain, like a good actual, you know, critical thinker looking out on the world without allowing yourself to be kind of bamboozled by popular narratives or people who sound smart but say ridiculous things.
Just like, what does common sense tell you about the world?
Some things are true and false.
The universe is constructed according to an order.
That order seems to be intelligible by our minds, which would suggest that it has to come from a mind and indeed occupy or live in a particular mind.
These are things that the ancients knew.
And for most of human history, as you indicate and show in your book, most of human history, people have been thinking this way and have sort of grasped these basic concepts.
And it's within those premises that you make art, because it's within those premises that there is such a thing as an absolute moral universe, which is what art is about.
And just like you can't do math unless there's a kind of scaffolding of like one plus one equals two, you probably can't do culture without a scaffolding of like absolute moral truth and falsehood and purpose to human life, because that's how we evaluate stories.
Now, does that mean that we should be evangelizing all the time?
Not in so many words, right?
Like, I think it's more about the context within this stuff takes place.
And this is why, as you say, although the right doesn't tend to be super good on culture, the left, which has more naturally kind of cultural gifts, is producing slop.
I mean, like, you turn on Netflix and it's all like kind of drab reinterpretations of movies that used to be good and IP that people used to like.
And one reason for that is there is no like source of truth in their philosophy.
So they can only siphon off parasitically other stuff that was made by people who did believe in something and who did have a set of values.
I guess what we've discovered in the New Jerusalem recently is that, you know, C.S. Lewis said, we don't need more Christian novelists.
We need more Christians writing good novels, right?
And this is kind of where I think we're headed is toward a culture that sort of accepts these basic truths as granted, right?
The basic facts of the moral universe and of God, and then kind of operates within that.
Because the woesters are so toast, they're so done that it's sort of like, it's our field to play.
And I think probably the way we should play it is just saying, all right, we're going to take for granted that like the wokeness, the atheism, the nihilism, you know, that's played out.
It doesn't really do anything for us.
It's not real.
Let's assume that's wrong.
Now what?
What kind of art do we make now?
And I think that's kind of the exciting question.
You know, I think this is when you go back, and I mean, obviously I'm steeped in Shakespeare.
I love Shakespeare all the time.
But you can't even understand why does Macbeth see the ghost of someone he's killed?
What does that mean?
And is Shakespeare saying the ghost is there or is it not there?
What is he talking about?
And why does Macbeth say that life is a tale told by an idiot signifying nothing?
Is that what Shakespeare believed?
You can't even understand these things if you don't understand that Macbeth is living in a moral universe and that Shakespeare is writing.
He's not writing to tell you that there's a moral universe.
He assumes you know there's a moral universe.
He's writing to show you what it's like because that is the dramatic thing.
I mean, one of the things, I mean, now that I've reached the age of like 372 or whatever the hell I am, you know, it's like, one of the things I've noticed is I don't even know how I would grow as a human being anymore if I weren't in a relationship with God, if I weren't in some,
if there weren't something at which I was just thought like, wow, you know, I still have infinite to go before I still have infinity to go before I get to where I want to be, which is what the drama and excitement and even pleasure and struggle of life is kind of all about.
There is no drama.
There is no drama without something, some spiritual, some sense of a spiritual wholeness that can be attained.
And yeah, you know, the Buddhists have their sense of it and the Christians have theirs and the Jews have theirs and all this.
But what I feel is that the reason the left is producing such garbage is the only attainment they can get is to get closer and closer to public opinion, to closer and closer to their own opinion of themselves.
In other words, there's no opinion that can intrude on their opinion.
And the thing about my opinion is something intrudes on my opinion every single day.
I mean, because my opinion is generated by my own ambitions and desires and all this stuff.
There's no drama to life in the best sense of that word, excitement and interest and growth, and therefore no art without that kind of struggle going on.
One of my pet peeves over the last several years in sci-fi, which is a genre I really like, is the multiverse.
And like I've beaten this horse almost to death now, and I do think it's passing a little bit out of fashion.
But, you know, the multiverse is this thing, at its best, it's an interpretation of quantum physics that I feel really doesn't hold up.
But in its more kooky formulations, it's not even that.
It's this sort of bizarre just-so story that people think gets you out of confronting the beginning of the universe because our universe is so precise and is constructed to house beings just like us.
But you can get out of that if you say, well, maybe there are a million or infinite universes, and this is the one that just happens to be like that.
Unfortunately, what then happens is that everything else you would ever say becomes meaningless, because if A equals A in this universe, but A equals B in just as many other universes, then truth is nothing, right?
And everything kind of falls apart.
And this became a very fashionable way of rescuing storylines from dead ends in like the Marvel cinematic universe, right?
They would kill some character, but then in another universe he would be alive, or they would find the universe where he hadn't died.
Just the other day, I was watching Black Mirror, a new episode, where it turned out that the multiverse was the answer.
And every time it's like, oh man, I was really enjoying that story.
And now, like, it's totally ruined because it means nothing.
It's basically just waving a magic wand and saying, everything is always, you know?
But one thing I realized as we were having this conversation is like, that is kind of a perfect depiction.
It is the natural end state of a godless art form, right?
Art without God can only move in the direction of like everything is both true and false.
And so nothing really matters.
And ultimately, to have a story, right, you have to have something that happens and something that doesn't happen.
And you have to have an opinion about whether it's good or bad or indifferent or strange or what.
And so, yeah, that has like completely exhausted itself.
And as the Greeks knew, once you end up in that position, the only possible thing to refer to is the will of the stronger, right?
Whoever screams loudest, whoever's public opinion is more popular, all of that stuff that you alluded to.
I think where we struggle, right?
Where conservatives then struggle is we say, okay, so we do need these truths, right?
We need kind of this scaffolding or this framework of things that we affirm, like that good is good and evil is evil.
And we operate within that context.
And so our art should only ever thunderously drive those points home, right?
And anything that doesn't, that even for a second entertains the possibility that there might be some doubt or ambiguity in these truths that even like questions or invites man into like dialogue with the almighty is like suspect and we should ban it or we should boycott it, you know?
And I think that is like a huge mistake and also a dead end because you go, you read the Bible, of course, like Abraham is like asking God.
Suspending Doubt in Art00:03:46
I'm reading Job right now.
It's full of just appalling statements on Job's part, right?
About like people come and they say all the things that Christians always say, like everything happens for a reason.
You must have done something wrong.
Like just offer it up to God.
And Job, the righteous man, basically says like, no, we're living in this like totally mysterious universe at the mercy of this like transcendent hyper intelligence, you know, and we suffer.
Like, you know, these are things that we, these are the way, this is the way that we ought to be making Christian art, I think, and not getting so like afraid of relativism that we just veer over to the opposite extreme.
Yeah, no, it's amazing.
And we're talking to Spencer Clavin, the author of Light of the Mind, Light of the World, about science and faith.
So we're running out of time, but I want to go back to one thing you said to end with.
He talks about it like going to the gym, that you go to the gym, you don't go to the gym because you're going to work out and then you're going to be great.
You go to the gym because after a while, you're going to look much better, feel much better, and you're going to continue to do that so that you look much better and much better for the rest of your life.
So you've come out of the American public education system, and now you know that like America is bad and you might be the opposite sex that you thought you were, but you don't know anything.
You have no information.
What do you think an ordinary person who works for a living, you know, wants to sleep at some point and wants to go out and have a good time?
What does that life look like where he starts to become a cultured person?
Well, I would say there's one thing that you missed out from the gym analogy, because yes, of course, those of us that go to the gym regularly become really, really ridiculously good looking, as you can see if you're watching this podcast on video.
But the other thing that happens, and this is something that you don't always expect, is that you actually like the gym for the gym, right?
It's like you get all these benefits, but instead of like preferring those, it turns out you actually feel better and you enjoy the process itself.
Education, art, high culture is even more like that because one way of defining it is what are the things that will bring you most joy when you spend your free time on them?
When you don't have to do anything else, what is going to make you happiest to do?
That's why they're called the liberal arts, the things that you do when you are free from any other constraints.
And a lot of this starts to look a lot like seek ye first the kingdom of heaven, and everything else will be given to you.
Yes, you'll know things.
Yes, you'll sound smart at cocktail parties.
But really what you'll learn is that truth, beauty, and goodness have an inherent joy in and of their own sake, in and of themselves, right?
A thing of beauty is a joy forever, as I think Quies said.
Yeah, and that's what you'll get out of a good education, right?
You come out of it with a part of your life that actually brings you delight and makes you better in the process.
That's about the opposite of our current education system.
If we can get there, we're cooking with gas.
Again, Spencer Clavin, the author of Light of the Mind, Light of the World, editor, associate editor of the Claremont Review of Books, one of the very, very few journals I actually subscribe to, and absolutely great stuff.
And it's great to see you.
Call your mother once in a while, and I'll talk to you.
Sounds good.
Once again, Spencer Clavin, no relation.
We just happen to have the same name and genes, but we have to share the genes.
We pass them back and forth.
But again, and the author of Light of the Mind, Light of the World, which you should buy, and you should also come to the Andrew Clavin Show on Friday.