Jeffrey Anderson, president of the American Main Street Initiative, revives the 1976 American Freedom Train—a patriotic tour featuring artifacts like Washington’s Constitution copy and Lincoln’s top hat—to propose a 2026 revival for the 250th anniversary. He criticizes the Library of Congress and Smithsonian (led by Lonnie Bunch) for "woke" exhibits like Girlhood (It’s Complicated) and the 1619 Project, arguing they distort history by focusing on slavery over achievements like limited government. Anderson blames conservative foundations for neglecting cultural battles, citing $500M Mellon-backed revisions at Mount Vernon and Monticello, and urges a return to celebrating the Founders’ legacy to counter institutional anti-Americanism. [Automatically generated summary]
Hey everyone, it's Andrew Clavin with this week's interview with Jeffrey Anderson, the president of the American Main Street Initiative, which is doing some really important work on the culture.
We talk about the culture all the time in terms of the arts, who's making movies, what the novels are about, all that sort of thing.
But there's also this national culture in which we celebrate our history, our institutions, and in which our institutions are supposed to celebrate our history.
And we've got the 250th anniversary of America coming up.
The 200th anniversary came in when I was in my 20s.
I remember that as a huge celebration.
I remember the relighting of the torch of the Statue of Liberty because by then I was a newsman and I remember covering that.
And it was just the entire country stopped to watch this stuff and to celebrate the country, celebrate the fact that we survived, celebrate the fact that we were the oldest republic on earth.
And it was all a big deal.
And right now we're not hearing a lot about this and it's coming up really fast.
And I'm not sure how many people are paying attention to it and how many people are paying attention to all of our institutions and what's happening in them.
Jeff and the American Main Street Initiative, along with our mutual friend John Fonte over at the Hudson Institute, they've been working not only on 250th anniversary, but on exposing some of the termites who've worked their way into our national monuments and museums.
So I want to talk about that.
Jeff, it's good to see you.
How are you doing?
Good, Andrew.
It's great to see you.
Thanks for coming on.
So you had an article that went viral the other week.
It was called John Wayne and the American Freedom Train.
Now, anything with John Wayne is good for me.
I'm always in favor of John Wayne.
But can you just tell the story?
Because everybody was reprinting this article and it was a remarkable story about our 200th birthday.
Yeah, kind of probably the most important event, really, of all the bicentennial events.
And you're right.
It was a year-long patriotic celebration of the country.
So spirited.
I remember it as a child.
And probably the most important part of it was the American Freedom Train, which kind of tied the national effort with all these local celebrations.
It was a steam train that went to all 48 contiguous states.
It drew over 50,000 people per stop, stopping in every state at 138 stops, I think.
Well, the idea for it, and it carried, I should mention, it carried a bunch of artifacts from American history, top shelf stuff, like Washington's own copy of the Constitution, Paul Revere's saddlebags, Abraham Lincoln's top hat, bats from Ted Williams, Babe Ruth, whatever.
I mean, it was an extraordinary moon rocks, had all kinds of stuff.
It was a moving museum.
It was brought to the people.
It was terrific.
And it turns out that the idea for the American Freedom Train as part of the Bicentennial was none other than John Wayne's, as he was on a train with Ross Rowland, the gentleman who kind of carried out the bicentennial American Freedom Train.
The two of them were traveling into Utah on a steam train to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the Golden Spike connecting the two lines of the railroad.
And they're on an open-air car and Wayne's looking around at these tremendous crowds and the spirit.
And he said, Ross, you know, we've got this 200th anniversary of America coming up in a few years.
We should do something like this for that.
And so they agreed to do so.
And sure enough, they did.
And it was a remarkable celebration.
And we've been pushing it through the American Main Street Initiative because I think it should be a centerpiece of the quarter millennial celebration next year, the 250th anniversary.
It would be terrific.
And there's a blueprint for doing it.
There's no reason we can't do it again.
That only proves my thesis that all great events in human history begin with John Wayne.
This is, I think, all great events can be traced back to John Wayne.
Maybe we could bring John Wayne back for the 250th anniversary.
So you wrote this article.
I think I saw this article like seven times in seven different places.
Like every time I turned the page, I would think, oh, there's that article again.
Are you getting any interest from the administration?
Or do you think there's a chance of getting this through to the administration?
Well, yeah, I think the article, I mean, I've heard it's gotten to the White House from various channels, and they're aware of the American Freedom Train idea.
I think they're considering it.
If the president simply agrees to let the train have these artifacts, these federal artifacts from the Smithsonian, from the Library of Congress, National Park Service, et cetera, the archives, everything else should fall into place pretty well.
There's a blueprint for doing it again.
The key is to get the president's approval on the artifacts, which President Nixon granted 50 years ago.
And then Ford was in office when the train actually left the station.
And I hope they'll do that.
I think it would be a tremendous addition to a celebration that, like you say, is very, there's not much has been planned so far.
We're way behind where we were for the bicentennial because we're coming out of this very unfortunate peak woke era.
And like there was a congressionally created commission that was supposed to plan for our 250th anniversary.
It was started 10 years ago under, or nine years ago under President Obama.
It's done nothing.
It's utterly useless.
It does things like asking Americans to tell stories about themselves, as if that's a celebration of 250 years of our country's history.
And so the Trump administration is trying to make up for lost ground or lost time with its Task Force 250.
And I think they're doing great work to try to make this happen.
And hopefully the American Freedom Trade will be a part of that celebration because I think it could be something that not only it's a reminder of so many great things, not only John Wayne, but the steam train evokes our settlement of the West.
The founding documents on board remind us of the greatness of our founders and our founding and the sustained aspect of it.
It would make sure that the celebration is not just something that happens over the July 4th period of a few days, but is a much longer celebration with this rolling museum, this tribute to America's finest coming to where Americans live and bringing it to the people.
It's a great idea.
We should get Glenn Beck involved.
He's got like a collection.
I think, you know, I think he has the mummified body of George Washington.
He has like every single, you know, piece of memorabilia from American history.
I know he laid out a fortune for some of that stuff.
And I'm sure it'd be great to have that on the train.
Yeah, last time around, they used artifacts from all over the place.
Some of the most important ones were the federal artifacts, but the hardest to get.
But they had 512 artifacts, and I think about 80% at least were from private sources or small museums.
But it's the federal artifacts that could really get the thing rolling.
Yeah, yeah.
So this is part of stuff you've been doing, work you've been doing.
I mean, this article caught on, but you've been doing a lot of work, kind of pointing out some of the things that are going on in our institutions, which are driving me a little bit insane.
There was an article in the Wall Street Journal that said Trump, you know, and they hate Trump.
I don't know why.
I don't know what it is with the Wall Street Journal that they've just kind of lost their minds over this.
But it said, Trump clash with Library of Congress sets up a constitutional fight.
It says White House moves to exert its influence firing top librarian and seeking to insult members of administration.
The Library of Congress, listen to this, the Library of Congress, long a sleepy, non-controversial staple of the nation's capital, has become the latest battleground in President Trump's power struggle between the branches of government.
Now, that makes it sound like they're just sitting around there just putting, filing books away in the Library of Congress and Donald Trump, like Godzilla, comes stomping in there.
But I don't think that's true, right?
I mean, it's a woman, I think, who's running in the Library of Congress, and she's a wokester.
Yeah, by all accounts, she's been putting on events for years that are woke events, all kinds of race, class, gender stuff, portraying all of America as victims and oppressors.
And unfortunately, this stuff is way too par for the course.
And I think the Trump administration is right to target these kind of people.
I mean, it needs to happen.
They're doing a great job of targeting these folks across the board.
I mean, there's a little bit of an issue here in the sense that she's a congressional, she's a member of the legislative branch, and the president doesn't have the constitutional authority in the same way.
He doesn't have the same constitutional latitude that he has in removing executive branch personnel.
And so that raises a bit of a tricky issue in this case.
But the journal and the mainstream press writ large, they like to pretend that the culture wars are all started by the right, that the left has done nothing.
They've just been sitting back and admiring American history.
I mean, it's just total nonsense.
The left has waged an assault on our history and heroes on the traditional American way of life.
And by and large, the establishment right has just sat there and let every bit of it proceed piece by piece.
And now Trump is actually fighting back and for main street Americans, for the traditional American way of life, for recognizing the greatness of our country.
And it's portrayed as him starting the fight.
I think it's ludicrous.
It is infuriating.
I mean, they come in to elementary schools and pass out gay in cartoon form.
And you say, don't do that.
And they say, well, you know, why are you starting a culture war?
I mean, really, they do it again and again and again.
So I mean, if I can understand if it's part of the legislative branch, maybe Trump doesn't have the power.
No problem with that.
I mean, it just, what bothered me was the reporting on it, that it was somehow like that he was making this up or he was starting the fight.
What about the Smithsonian?
Where does that belong in the power structure?
Well, Smithsonian's been terrible.
It's headed by a man named Lonnie Bunch, who is, and he's woke before woke became popular.
He was long before the summer of George Floyd.
He was pushing, he was actively associating the Smithsonian with the 1619 project, trying to push climate change through the Smithsonian, saying that museums' purpose is to raise a new generation of activists.
I mean, he's a leftist activist as the head of the Smithsonian institution.
Now, the Smithsonian's not, it's kind of a quasi-governmental private entity.
It gets most of its funding.
I think it gets something like 70% of its funding from the federal government, hence from taxpayers.
So it needs to answer to the federal government, but it's not actually part of the executive branch.
Trump can't just fire bunch in the way he could, say, an executive branch employee.
Although the board of directors for the Smithsonian includes very prominent people, such as Vice President Vance.
And so Trump rightly recently, the president put out an executive order ordering the Smithsonian to start celebrating American history and stop condemning it, said the same thing to the National Park Service.
And I think that's entirely not only a good thing and justifiable, but it's necessary.
You can't have, I mean, these public places, these museums, memorials, it's absolutely awful when people come there, whether it's Americans or visitors from abroad, and they're told that America's heroes were actually bad guys.
They were hypocrites.
They're not worth celebrating.
That's a part of our civic education.
And the fact that we've allowed it to get where it has is really terrible.
Challenging Founders' Legacies00:15:24
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I go to the National Gallery, the National Art Gallery.
I must go into that place 10 times a year.
I mean, I go a lot.
And it's a place where I go to kind of restore my brain.
And the minute I walk in, I'll go up to the Renaissance wing and I'll just kind of look at the paintings and just kind of remind myself of what an incredible heritage of art that the West has that is almost always interwoven with Christianity and has this Christian spirit behind it.
Even as the spirit wanes, it still informs what's there.
And it's just, it restoreth my soul.
You know, it's a big deal.
And when I hear them saying, well, we've got to get more indigenous people in there.
And the thing is, art like that comes from top civilizations.
It comes from civilizations at the top of their game.
That is when you get the Aeneid.
That's when you get the great works of the Greeks and Romans and the Europeans.
And it's like, sorry, they were the color they were.
I don't love them for the color of their skin.
I love them for the immense talent and the philosophies that inform that art.
And I just think if we don't protect that, it's gone forever.
It's gone for good because once you lose it, you can't get it back.
You can't scrape up.
It's like the Taliban blowing up their monuments because they're not Islamic.
You can't bring that stuff back.
So the other thing that gets me to is the homes of the founders.
Now, I go to Mount Vernon now and then, and I've been to Monticello.
And I think I was at Madison's house.
And here's the interesting thing, because I want to ask you about who's running these places.
Because you walk in, there's a lot of talk about the slaves, or as they now call them, enslaved people.
Why that is different than a slave, I don't know, but that's what they call it.
And so like, I'm interested in that.
I am, you know, obviously these were plantations.
They were run with slave labor.
I think that's interesting.
I think their lives were interesting.
I think it's interesting to hear how people were treated by the people who are our heroes.
You know, I have no time for making it sound better than it was.
Enslaved people is, I think, a general bad, you know.
But I'm not going there because they were slaves.
I'm going there because George Washington was there.
I'm going there because Thomas Jefferson was there.
The first thing I want to talk about is George Washington, what he was doing, what his life was like, what truly one of the greatest men in human history was doing.
Who's running those places?
Well, it's a bunch of woke foundations that have poured a lot of money into them.
The Mellon Foundation gave a half a billion dollars with the project of basically portraying our founders as deeply flawed men.
And you can see the left's agenda on this.
If the founders were flawed, then probably the Constitution and the country are flawed, and we need to remake everything just as the left would like with a giant government.
And, you know, it's all part of it, they can't really go after the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.
They go after the men who wrote them and they've had more success than we should have allowed them to have.
The truth is that our founding generation, I mean, the Constitutional Convention was a providential gathering of greats.
It was one of the most remarkable moments in the history of the world.
Our founding generation is about the best, if not the very best, there's ever been.
The things they accomplished, the republic that they founded, it's extraordinary.
And to not celebrate men like Washington and Jefferson and Madison and the rest is criminal, really.
But you've got these woke foundations that have taken over, pretending that they're just friends of Jefferson or whoever, and then buying up the property and then saying, well, why really talk about Jefferson when we can talk about how, you know, we could talk about the slaves.
And I totally agree.
I mean, enslaved people is just a kind of annoying, politically correct version of slaves.
It's the same thing.
When the founders avoided writing the term slave or slavery in the Constitution, they didn't substitute enslaved people.
They called them persons.
And the really toxic example of this is now the effort everywhere to refer to the founders as quote-unquote enslavers.
And that's really bad.
And the right and the press have gone along with this by and large in terms of not challenging that rhetoric.
I mean, enslaver sounds very different than plantation owner or slaveholder.
And it's a deliberate switch to make it sound as if the founders were out rounding people up and free people and putting them into slavery.
I mean, Lincoln talked about how even Southerners hated the slave trader, that they wouldn't let the slave traders' children play with their children.
Such a loathsome creature.
Well, enslaver is almost even worse than slave trader.
The slave traders buying and selling human beings, the enslaver is actually going out and rounding them up.
And so it's they're trying to portray them in a different light, as opposed to saying these are men who inherited slavery.
It was here under Britain.
They were born into a slave-based society.
Every gentleman family or wealthy family in the South was involved with slavery and just by birth.
It was a very difficult situation to deal with and get rid of.
But I would argue that the founding generation actually did more to get rid of slavery, to put it on the path to extinction, than any other generation, except for the one that fought the Civil War and paid the price with their own blood.
In the northern states, he had a huge abolitionist movement during that time.
And all the language, Jefferson's language in the Declaration of Independence, saying all the language about all men are created equal, that they're endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights.
I mean, you can't square that with slavery.
And it left all the future slavery defenders in the rather uncomfortable and politically impotent position of trying to argue that the Declaration of Independence was talking about self-evident falsehoods or something to that effect.
And so anyway, the founders were great men and they deserve to be celebrated.
But right now, the left has a very active project of trying to convince Americans that they're not worth celebrating.
It's kind of a sickness because, you know, sometimes if you're in Georgetown, walking on Washington Street in view of the Washington Monument in Washington, D.C., you start to think like, you know, this guy actually must have been a fairly impressive person to have like every block, every city block, and cities across the country named after him and states named after him and all this.
And when you look at the man's life, I mean, there's nothing else like it in human history.
I really cannot think of another person who threw away the kingdom of the kingship of a continent.
I mean, handed the sword away when he would have been elected king of the continent forever.
You know, who does that?
Who else in history?
And if you can't point to another person, then what the hell are you talking about when you tell me that he's a flawed guy, as opposed to whom?
As opposed to whom?
And as opposed to what time in history when we're not all, you know, we all live in this time of massive abortions and, you know, we live with iPhones in our pockets that are made by Chinese slaves.
It's all like, you know, this is what life is like.
It's a fallen world.
And to have a man of that kind of virtue not spoken about and heralded just makes it a worse world because you're not holding up an example that we all should follow.
His life was truly extraordinary.
And not only did he lead the country in its battle against the armed battle against the British to make good the Declaration of Independence at Yorktown, but then becoming the first and certainly one of our greatest presidents and dealing with all these constitutional questions with tremendous judgment and setting the precedent in the right direction in so many ways.
But like you say, to resist the power, his commitment to republicanism, I mean, the left doesn't even really understand what republicanism is.
So they don't see the good side of the founders.
For him to not desire to be king, to slap it down and say, I want nothing to do with this.
I believe in republicanism.
I believe in rule by the people.
I believe in limited government, all the things the left doesn't really believe in.
And it's extraordinary.
How many presidents in recent years have eschewed power, have sought to devolve power back to the states or back to Congress or places where it belongs?
Supposedly, Napoleon in his dying days was lamenting that he wasn't viewed more favorably at that time.
And he said, they wanted me to be Washington.
I couldn't be Washington.
Yeah, who could?
Who could?
Who can actually swear before the throne of God that if you had the chance to be king of a continent, you would say, ah, thanks anyway.
I'm too much in favor of freedom.
Yeah, it's an amazing thing.
Trump went and he cleared out the Kennedy Center and he took out all the people there and replaced the board.
And he put himself in charge of it, which kind of made me a little bit nervous because I'm afraid it will be like the apprentice will be put on.
Now, I've been to the Kennedy Center a couple of times, and they have the capacity to do great work, but it's not really been used well.
And certainly the drag shows for children.
And so, you know, I mean, come on.
This is our national theater.
You know, you go to the national theater in Britain where I live for many years.
You saw the greatest actors in the country who are the greatest actors in the world doing the greatest plays being written now and that have ever been written.
What do you get at the Kennedy Center?
What do you foresee there?
I mean, I'm a little concerned about it because I'm a little concerned it'll all turn out to be Oklahoma and Carousel and nice, you know, and the American musical is a wonderful thing, but there's also great drama that can be put on.
What direction do you think that's going to go?
I don't really know.
I mean, your guess is sort of as good as mine on that.
It almost can't help but go in a better direction than where it was heading or where it was, I think.
But you're right, certainly about the arts, the importance of the arts.
You've obviously been involved in that pretty much your whole life.
But these things are happening everywhere.
I mean, you mentioned John Fonte.
He and I were just down at the Jefferson Memorial the other day checking out that not that many people used to go to the basement of the Jefferson Memorial.
We've got the top level with the statue, the great statue of Jefferson and a few quotes inscribed on the wall.
Those quotes were chosen by FDR and they were carefully chosen to not demonstrate the profound difference in political philosophy between Thomas Jefferson and FDR in terms of the size and scope of government and the importance of individual control over one's own life.
But the basement of the Jefferson used to be my very favorite place in Washington, D.C. for highlighting the real thoughts of the founders and how they viewed the world.
There was a quote in there.
I think it was Jefferson saying, the true foundation of Republican government is the equal right of every person in his person and property and in their management, which is very different than FDR's view of the world.
And so this basement museum, which was put in place in the 90s and was apparently the project of a couple of UVA professors in the National Park Service, just terrific.
Well, a couple of years ago, I was horrified to see a sign saying we're going to be reconsidering Jefferson.
And so they haven't opened this new exhibit yet, thankfully.
But the signs are just everywhere on the limited signage that's up there of just how bad they plan to make it.
They ask questions like, well, why have a Jefferson Memorial?
And do our heroes change over time?
And it's all focused on slavery.
And about the only place that they quote Jefferson is on the wall of separation of church and state, between church and state, which of course is kind of an overstatement of the constitutional protections of the free exercise religion and there being no established church.
It's just leftist city.
And this is really tragic because it's, again, it was the best representation that I knew of of the founders thought in Washington, D.C. on the mall.
Hopefully the Trump administration can step in and say, we're not going to have any of this nonsense and maybe restore what was there before, maybe just tweak it slightly and update it a little bit.
But this is the kind of thing we're trying to draw attention to.
So you were the president of the American Main Street Initiative.
You turn out a lot of, I mean, I see your stuff in a lot of places.
You get good places.
But is there a program for cleaning these people out?
I mean, is there a way to sort of start to say, this is the mission, this is what we have to do, steps one, two, and three?
Or is that being too hopeful?
Well, I think that there are steps that need to be taken.
Now, whether, how much that's been developed, I'm not really sure.
Clearly, the Trump administration is targeting a lot of this stuff, the way Trump went after the Smithsonian, the National Park Service through his executive order.
And by the way, I think a great way to implement that executive order and tell the Smithsonian and the Park Service, we're going to celebrate American history is to tell them, let these artifacts be used on the American Freedom Train.
That would be a good start.
But so they are taking steps.
A lot of it is the conservative foundations, the groups that fund conservative efforts, they don't seem to be interested in this stuff by and large.
Now, there are some that are, but the larger, better known ones tend to eschew this sort of thing.
And they just want to fund item after item that's like against tariffs or something.
But this is where the sense of who we are as Americans, the sense of our own country is decided to a large degree.
And so I think these projects are absolutely crucial and have been just so for so long.
The right has been so blind in trying to deal with this threat.
Why Read a Novel?00:04:42
It's incredibly true.
You know, as you say, I mean, I've been selling novels my whole life and I go on conservative shows to sell novels.
And almost not all the time, but often somebody will say, well, why read a novel?
And I think, well, why take a walk?
Why fall in love?
You know, this is what life is for.
It's for appreciating beauty and telling stories and living life.
It's not for politics.
Politics is supposed to make all those things possible.
And the right seems to somehow forget that.
I mean, politics is a noble field, but it's not the only field.
It is there for a reason.
It has a telos, you know.
Why read a novel is quite a question.
Oh, my gosh.
I can't tell you how many times I've been.
It's like, why look at a painting?
Those paintings.
Those aren't real people.
Yeah, it's insane.
I once read somebody wrote, I don't know, this is like a quarter century ago, I read somebody saying that if conservatives want to have an influence on the culture, they're going to have to create some.
And I thought that was unfortunate.
I mean, there was a time when the right was actually the dominant culture and actually did make stuff.
But, you know, culture is, I mean, art is culture critical and all that.
It's going to have some radical stuff in it, you know, and radical thoughts, which is a good thing.
You should open your mind to all kinds of thoughts.
Well, like you talk about the time when they did so, I mean, like John Wayne, I mean, making these movies that are absolutely designed to be pro-American and consciously so.
You know, when he died, I was a small town reporter and I wrote a column about how much I liked him.
And I walked into the courthouse the next day to cover a trial I was covering and people came out of like their offices to shake my hand and like I had done a heroic act.
And I said, what?
He was like one of the greatest movie stars who ever lived.
But you weren't allowed to say it.
I just hadn't been paying enough attention to know that I wasn't allowed to say it.
And I think the same thing is true of Clint Eastwood.
He's kind of the modern John Wayne and there's no one to replace those guys.
So I don't know how to put this question exactly.
I mean, do you think that there is, are you hopeful?
I guess that's what I want to know.
Are you hopeful that these institutions can be reclaimed?
Yes, because nobody's been trying.
Nobody's been paying any attention.
I mean, so if you walk into one of these museums on the National Mall, say, for example, now, you can tell within a matter of seconds whether the exhibit was put up in prior decades when we were sane, which is, I mean, things put up in even like 2002 were really good.
It's only very recently that things have started to change so dramatically.
But you walk into, say, the American History Museum on the mall, the Smithsonian, and the exhibit on the Star Spangled Banner is terrific.
I went in with my kids and I was waiting to see some wokeness appear.
And the whole exhibit, which I think went up in 1964 when the museum opened, it all kind of played like what you'd expect to have seen then or maybe during the bicentennial.
Very straightforward, very patriotic, just terrific.
And then you walk down the hall and there's an exhibit called Girlhood parentheses, it's complicated, talking about trans matters and whatever else.
And it's just, and you're looking at it, and this is, of course, like from 2020 something.
And it's appalling.
It's night and day different.
And it's sort of the, but anyway, given that there's been almost no effort to oppose it, there's all kinds of room to start to shift these things back.
Now, it's not going to happen overnight because the trajectory these things are on, things will probably, well, maybe not, but I mean, there's a chance they get worse before they get better just on the current momentum.
But I think that the attention just in the last year or two on this stuff and the efforts by at least a few of us to try to turn the tide, I think you're already seeing a lot of movement in the right direction.
Jeffrey Anderson, the president of the American Main Street Initiative, these are things that especially conservatives with money should start to look at.
And one thing they could do is give to the American Main Street Initiative and support the work that Jeff is doing.
It really is important and amazing, amazing that the right has let it go this far.
Jeff, it's great to see you.
Thanks a lot.
I hope you come back.
Thank you, Andrew.
I really appreciate it.
Anytime.
I have to say, I mean, I love talking to Jeff Anderson and the American Main Street Initiative is doing great work on this subject, but it is frustrating.
It is frustrating to watch the right twiddle its thumbs while these guys take over Mount Vernon, while they take over the Smithsonian, while they take over the Library of Congress and turn it into basically a tool of anti-Americanism.
If you want to hear more pro-Americanism, come to the Andrew Clavin Show on Friday.