Laila Mickelwait’s five-year campaign exposed Pornhub—then fifth globally with 170M daily visits—as a "crime scene" monetizing illegal content, including child abuse videos as young as three and non-consensual trafficking of teens like a 15-year-old found in 58 rape-for-profit uploads. Whistleblowers revealed Cyprus moderators processing 2,000+ videos per shift with flawed age-verification, while MindGeek’s CEO emails confirmed trafficking profits and lax policies (e.g., 15 flags needed to review underage rape). Civil lawsuits against Visa and investors like Cornell University succeeded, but a $1.8M U.S. settlement for 100 victims fell short of justice. Mickelwait demands multinational accountability, arguing civil settlements won’t stop predators exploiting platforms like Pornhub’s downloadable archives or sextortion tactics, where 1 in 7 kids aged 9–12 risked blackmail. Legal pressure must escalate to criminalize executives and sever financial ties with trafficking. [Automatically generated summary]
Hey everyone, it's Andrew Claven with this week's interview with Lila Micklewaite.
She's the author of Takedown, Inside the Fight to Shut Down Pornhub for Child Abuse, Rape, and Sex Trafficking.
I was talking on last Friday show about the fact that so often the people who do not respect human freedom are willing to give you one freedom, that is the freedom of sexuality that will ultimately enslave you.
They want to say that you can do anything you want with your body, answer any desire with any question from your desire with the answer.
Yes.
They want to tell you that everybody is open to being sexually used.
Even sometimes they try to legitimize the abuse of children.
And all of the time, it ends up with you losing the important freedoms, the freedom of religion, the freedom of speech, the freedom to think what you want to think and say what you want to say, which are the spiritual freedoms.
And one of the places where this becomes very confusing is pornography, because I'm almost a First Amendment absolutist, and yet I see absolutely no good that comes from pornography.
It seems to destroy the people who use it, and I'm sure it destroys the people who are in it often.
And Lila Micklewaite has been in a fight, an epic fight against some of the things that were going on at Pornhub.
And I'd like to talk to her about her book, Takedown, Inside the Fight to Shut Down Pornhub for Child Abuse, Rape, and Sex Trafficking.
Lila, thank you for coming on.
I appreciate it.
Yeah, thank you for having this conversation.
So explain how you got into this battle.
At Pornhub, maybe you should start by telling us what Pornhub is, because I don't think I've ever been on Pornhub, but I assume it was a huge pornography site.
Yeah, it definitely was.
When this began, so this is in the context of over 15 years in the fight against sex trafficking, when this fight against Pornhub specifically began in its parent company in 2020.
This was early 2020, February 2020.
And in 2020, just to give some context for who we're talking about, what website we're talking about, Pornhub, the world's most popular porn site at the time, was actually the fifth most visited website across the entire internet by the end of 2020.
They had capitalized on coronavirus and had done some crazy PR stunts and traffic soared, and they became the fifth most visited website on the net, not just porn site, but website.
And they had 170 million visits per day, 62 billion visits that year, and enough content uploaded annually, so every 12 months, that if you put those videos back to back, it would take 169 years to watch those videos.
And that wasn't even counting the millions of images that were being uploaded to the site.
So, you know, this was a massive website.
Not only that, I mean, Pornhub had spent millions of dollars making themselves a household name, really kind of a cultural icon globally where people were, you know, wearing their apparel proudly in public.
They were walking in New York Fashion Week.
There was commercials, faux commercials on Saturday Night Live.
You know, everybody thought of Pornhub as this kind of wink-wink cheeky porn brand, very mainstream.
They had really mainstreamed themselves.
And I made a discovery about this site in February of 2020 that would change my life.
It would, you know, start this battle against them to hold them accountable.
And that was that I had seen some very concerning news headlines at late 2019.
I was paying attention because I'm an anti-trafficking advocate against child sexual abuse.
And there was a story of a 14-year-old girl from Palo Alto, California, who was being abused by a relative.
And her classmate, the 14-year-old classmate, recognized the girl on the site because they had filmed the abuse and uploaded it to Pornhub.
And the perpetrator was apprehended, was convicted.
At the same time, that year, there was a 15-year-old girl from Florida who was missing for an entire year.
She was from Broward County.
And she was finally found when her distraught mother was tipped off by a Pornhub user that he recognized her daughter on the site.
And she was found in 58 videos being raped for profit on Pornhub.
The London Sunday Times, you know, this is a very reputable outlet in London.
They had done an investigation of Pornhub in late 2019.
And they found dozens of illegal videos on the site within minutes, even children as young as three years old.
And so it wasn't just children who were being abused on the site.
There were stories of adult trafficking victims.
And so I was just up late one night thinking about all of this, thinking about these headlines, and I had a question come to mind.
How is this content being vetted?
How is this YouTube of porn screening the content that is being uploaded to the site?
And then I had an idea.
I said, I'm going to test the upload system for myself.
And I did.
I, you know, I took a video of the rug in the dark room.
It was in the middle of the night and the keyboard and I uploaded and I found out what millions of people already knew.
And that was that all it took to upload was an email address.
In under 10 minutes, anybody in the entire world could upload.
And this is user-generated porn.
So this is free porn being uploaded to the site by anybody with an iPhone anywhere in the world.
And they were not verifying ID to make sure that these are not children.
They were not verifying consent to make sure that these are not rape or trafficking victims.
And I quickly understood that Pornhub was not a porn site.
It was a crime scene.
And I was compelled to sound the alarm on what was going on.
And that's how this all began.
That's a remarkable story.
I mean, I just, I didn't really understand that you could just upload anything you wanted onto the site.
So what happened?
How did you go about attacking them?
I mean, it seemed like it would be easy to attack them.
It seemed like they would just be arrested instantaneously, but no.
No, this has been a long and hard fight over the last five years.
But at the time, you know, I did what I, the only thing that I could do, I took to social media.
I actually took to Twitter because it was Twitter at the time and started to say, look, this site is infested with videos of real sexual crime.
I began to investigate the site and I just discovered just the most horrendous, obviously illegal videos of unconscious women, of pre-pubescent children all over the site.
I started the hashtag Trafficking Hub, which started to catch on.
I wrote an op-ed that got published in the Washington Examiner and then started a petition that went viral.
And today we have 2.3 million signatures from every country in the world.
And what happened was as this was all going viral, the media was starting to pay attention.
Hundreds of articles actually were written throughout 2020 and victims were seeing all of this and they started to come forward sometimes on a daily basis.
I was getting victims of pornhub saying, you know, I was abused on this site.
I was raped.
I was a child.
I was unconscious.
I begged for those videos to come down.
I could not get them down.
I even had whistleblowers from the company coming forward and exposing all of the inner workings of how they were just recklessly disregarding human life for profit in the way that they were actually running the company.
I mean, things like understanding and getting the schedule sent to me that proved that they only had 30 moderators in Cyprus working 10 per shift, eight hour shifts.
were reprimanded if they viewed less than 700 videos per shift.
They were just clicking through these videos with the sound off.
Some of them were doing up to 2,000 videos per eight hour shift.
And they were just guessing who was 16 and who was 18.
What was rough sex and what was rape?
So many details like this came forward.
And that is, it just started to build and build and culminated with this really powerful New York Times piece called The Children of Pornhub by two-time Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Nick Christophe at the end of 2020.
And we had been pressuring the credit card companies this whole time because we understood that, you know, the money is where it's at.
Like these companies care about money above everything else and that the Achilles heel of Pornhub would be to go after the credit card companies and get them to cut ties.
But they were resisting, you know, all this whole time, they were resistant.
But then when the article was released, the pressure was on.
Thousands of follow-up articles came out at that time.
Justin Trudeau was, you know, responding from Canada because the parent company of Pornhub is based in Canada.
Parliament was up in arms demanding an investigation.
And finally, the credit card companies cut ties with Pornhub.
And then what happened next was in a bid to try to woo the credit card companies back, they actually took down 80% of the entire website overnight.
So over 10 million videos and over 30 million images were gone off that site in what Financial Times called probably the biggest takedown of content in internet history.
And it wasn't, that didn't end there.
You know, we have kept at it.
They've lost all major business partners, advertisers.
The CEO and the COO were forced to resign.
The secret majority shareholder was exposed and he was found, located, and he's being sued today by dozens of victims in individual lawsuits.
They were criminally charged by the U.S. government for intentionally profiting from sex trafficking.
And today they have been sued by nearly 300 victims in 25 lawsuits, including class actions that have been certified on behalf of tens of thousands of child victims.
And the site was sold as a distressed asset.
And today they've actually had to take down 91% of the entire website is gone.
But we're not done yet because the call to action was shut down Pornhub and hold its executives accountable.
And that's what we intend to do.
Yeah.
I mean, I was going to say they're in Canada where they do have laws.
I mean, they must have broken criminal laws, right?
Yeah.
But they're still.
Of course.
Yeah.
I mean, it's not only that, you know, it's not speculation.
Like the government has actually engaged in multi-year investigations and they have released public reports detailing the fact that they have broken Canadian law.
And so, yeah, but, you know, the issue is in Canada, we have yet to see them being held criminally accountable.
There's lawsuits.
There's multiple class action lawsuits in Canada, but we need to see criminal accountability because this is very important in order to be a deterrent to future abusers, right?
Because it's always a risk-benefit analysis.
And unless we end impunity for corporations like this, you're just going to see this continue.
So that's why we need to see that happen.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, first of all, I got to say good for Nick Christophe for writing that piece.
He's been very intense about sex slavery.
He's been really good about it.
And I'm always picking on the New York Times.
So I just want to say that he's doing a great job on that.
What do you think of the phrase that has become popular now that sex work is work?
Is there something about porn in and of itself that makes that sets off your protective antenna?
Or is it simply the abuse of these sites that bothers you?
Yeah, I mean, my work and the trafficking hub movement, you know, it's become known as the trafficking hub movement and the work of the Justice Defense Fund.
We are solely and specifically focused on the way that sexual crime, so illegal content, is being globally distributed and heavily monetized on these sites.
And in fact, constitutes sex trafficking because, you know, the definition of sex trafficking in the United States and internationally is the commercialization of sex acts that are involving an underage individual or an underage child or somebody that was induced to perform that sex act by force, fraud, or coercion.
And so every sex act that is non-consensual, every sex act that's involving a child on these sites is an act of trafficking.
And that is because it's free porn, right?
These are free porn sites, but they're heavily monetized.
So they, you know, Pornhub is selling 4.6 billion ad impressions on this content every day.
And that's how they were making hundreds of millions of dollars off free porn.
So to your question, like we're focused just taking on the issue of illegal content, of victims being abused.
Home Title Lock00:02:27
And, you know, for our part, at this moment, you know, it is legal.
You know, it is constitutionally protected in the United States.
And if it is a fully consenting adult, that is, you know, it's not our business.
That's not what I'm focused on.
That's not what our organization is focused on.
But it's a gargantuan task to just hold these companies accountable for this content.
And in fact, the way that they've built the business model of free user generated porn, which is the primary way that porn is distributed on the internet today, it is inherently set up to allow illegal content to be monetized on these sites because they don't want friction when uploading.
So they need massive amounts of content in order to drive massive amounts of Google search results and all that traffic to the site to sell advertising.
So by holding them accountable, we're really saying, look, this business model, we have to do away with this business model.
You have to reinvent yourself in a safer way because this just doesn't work the way that it's set up right now.
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Global Sex Trafficking Networks00:05:33
So internationally, how does the sex trafficking business work?
Does it have centers?
Does it have places, certain places that you are looking at specifically?
I remember watching the movie Sound of Freedom, where they said that America was one of the great customers for sex trafficking.
Is that true?
What are you looking at internationally?
Yeah, I mean, there's a big demand here in the United States for victims, but all over, I mean, this is a global issue.
And what we've seen even in our specific fight against Pornhub and its parent company is that the victims that have come forward are from everywhere.
I mean, across the United States, from Bakersfield, you know, California to New York, coast to coast, from, you know, South America.
We've had victims in, you know, Guatemala and Honduras, in Europe, in the UK, you know, across Canada.
We've just seen victims from everywhere.
And these corporations that are monetizing this trafficking and benefiting from it are international corporations.
So for example, Pornhub's parent company, they're based out of Montreal, Canada, but they have offices in Texas and LA, in Cyprus, in Romania.
They're registered in Luxembourg for tax purposes, offices in the UK.
These are multinational corporations.
And so they need to be held accountable at an international scale.
And that is why one of the important things that I like to talk about is the solution.
And that is, we have to have an international solution.
And what's that solution?
It's getting the financial institutions to implement preventative policy.
Because these are international corporations and the abuse is happening all over the world.
It's not enough for America.
It's not enough for the U.S. to say, we're going to implement policy that demands age and consent verification for every person and every user generated video that goes up on one of these sites because they're everywhere.
So, but if Visa says we don't do business with user-generated porn sites that don't verify the age and consent of every single person in every single video, well, then that takes place internationally and that takes place instantly.
And we know that these corporations are highly motivated to comply because above everything else, they care about money.
And money is the bottom line in all of this.
Of course.
We're talking to Lila Micklewaite, author of Takedown Inside the Fight to Shut Down Pornhub for Child Abuse, Rape and Sex Trafficking.
When you say these companies are multinational corporations, is this their only business or do they have other businesses and this is one of their businesses?
No, this is their porn is their business.
Yes.
But the funny thing is, is that nobody even knew the name of, so everybody in the world knew Pornhub for the most part.
You know, they had become a household name in the world, but nobody knew the parent company of Pornhub that actually has obtained a monopoly on the global porn industry because with a $362 million loan from Colbeck Capital, the hedge fund, and 125 secret investors that included JP Morgan Chase and Cornell University, the company behind Pornhub called MindGeek.
So that was the company behind Pornhub called MindGeek.
They essentially rolled up the porn industry.
So they purchased the world's most popular porn sites that are subscription sites and brands and tube sites.
So, you know, Pornhub is just one of many different sites that this company owns.
And so it's Pornhub and its sister sites.
And so it's Pornhub and UPorn and Tube A and GayTube and XTube and, you know, XtremeTube.
And I could go on and on.
And that is the company that actually owns Pornhub.
And it was estimated at one point they had ownership of about 80% of the world's most popular porn sites and brands was under this company.
So when we talk about holding Pornhub accountable, it's not just Pornhub.
It's actually the parent company of Pornhub who is being held accountable in the lawsuits and the criminal prosecution and all that's happened.
And go back to who the investors were in this company.
Yeah.
Who are they?
So Colbeck Capital with a $362 million high interest loan.
They were charging 20% on their loan because they understood that this was a high-risk investment.
They had done their due diligence.
And today, dozens of victims are actually suing not only Pornhub and its parent company.
Yeah.
They're suing Colbeck Capital and they're suing Redwood Capital because they were another hedge fund that had invested in Pornhub with a lot of due diligence, understanding the business model, understanding how this all worked and seeing it as an opportunity to make a lot of money on a high interest loan.
And then behind them, you know, they had other investors, like I said, 125 secret investors who were involved with the Colbeck investment.
And then we found out that that included JP Morgan Chase and Cornell University, which was really surprising.
And Cornell and JP Morgan, they knew what they were investing in?
I don't know.
I don't know that detail.
Yeah.
I don't know if they had just invested and then kind of trusted that it was going in whatever direction.
But they ended up putting their money into toward that.
And that was been reported in the Financial Times in, let's see, late 2020 and December 2020, that was reported.
But so not only are the hedge funds being sued by victims, the credit card companies are being sued.
Evidence Uncovered Online00:10:33
So Visa was actually sued by dozens of victims for knowingly benefiting from the trafficking venture, which is unlawful in the United States.
And they're actually winning.
So Serena is a victim from Bakersfield, California.
And she was the feature of Nick Christoph's New York Times piece called Children of Pornhub.
And as a 13-year-old young teen, she was, you know, her abuse was uploaded to Pornhub again and again, getting millions of views.
And she would beg for that to come down.
And it would just, they would ignore her.
And if they did respond, you know, they would say, hassle her, prove that you're a victim, prove that you're underage, right?
And she didn't have to, they didn't have to prove anything to upload the abuse to Pornhub.
But, you know, even if she got it down, it'd just go back up again and again and again.
And this sent her on a spiral of trauma.
And she dropped out of school.
She got addicted to drugs.
She tried to kill herself multiple times and then wound up homeless living out of a car.
But Serena today is suing Pornhub, its owners, its individual owners.
She's suing Visa and the hedge funds.
And in 2022, Visa lost its motion to dismiss the case.
So a federal judge in California said, nope, we are not letting you out of this case.
And in his own words, he said that if the facts in this case are true, that Visa actually gave Pornhub the very tool through which to complete the crime of benefiting from child trafficking.
So that's happening.
Yeah.
Is there a profile of a typical sex trafficker?
I mean, what does that look like?
Is he a gangster?
Is he an ordinary person who just like got into the business?
What does that look like?
Yeah.
Well, when we think about sex trafficking, a lot of times you think about the movies and you think about Taken and you think about, you know, kind of these dramatized renditions of what it would look like.
And that does happen sometimes.
But, you know, a lot of time it is a family member.
It's a parent.
It's somebody that's known to the victim, somebody that they should be able to trust.
And that is the way that it happens a lot.
When we're talking about trafficking in the sense of, you know, this content, this illegal sexual content of children and victims being uploaded online, I mean, a lot of times, you know, it's just, it could be an ex-boyfriend that's doing that.
A lot of times it is somebody that enters into what is kind of like a romantic relationships and becomes coercive.
Sometimes what we're seeing online is a lot of sextortion and a lot of blackmail situations where there's predators who are lurking online and they develop relationships with children because today, look, almost all children have access to devices.
And this is really kind of an alarming fact that we know.
You know, I know Ofcom and the Children's Commissioner in the UK was saying that over 90% of 12-year-olds were having had devices, smartphones.
And so these predators develop relationships with the children and then convince them to send a nude image or video of themselves.
And that is not uncommon.
In fact, Thorne in 2022 released a report.
So Thorne's a major child protection organization in the U.S.
And they found that one in seven, nine to 12 year olds had already sent nude images of themselves to another person.
And so that is, yes, nine to 12, one in seven had already had said that they had done that.
And that was a survey of over a thousand children.
So this is not uncommon.
So then they will send a nude image or video.
They think that it's someone their age that they're going to impress.
And then what happens is the blackmail comes, the sex dortion comes and they say, okay, actually, I know the email.
I can, I'm going to send this to your parents.
I'm going to send this to your teachers.
I'm going to send this to your classmates unless you do X, Y, and Z.
And sometimes X, Y, and Z is to give them money.
But often it's to do more videos and to do more images.
And they just get in this really dark cycle and they're terrified and they're shamed and they don't think they can go to anyone for help.
And a lot of times this ends in suicide for children.
And that's some of the ways that they're being extorted and trafficked online because when that sexual image is monetized, then it constitutes trafficking.
So there's, but there's no organization, like it's not like the mafia where you can go after a certain kind of group and bring them down.
This is just sickos doing this.
Well, in this case, we are, you know, it is in fact, you know, the people that are benefiting, the people that are profiting from this abuse that I'm talking about, the filmed rape, the filmed child abuse that is being distributed online, they are identifiable.
They are executives that are running, you know, the world's largest porn conglomerate with the flagship site being Pornhub.
And we are after them to actually take them down because victims say it's one thing to be raped and trafficked, but when that abuse is filmed, then it's globally distributed online.
They will never, ever escape it.
They call it the immortalization of their trauma, where they just understand that this is going to be online in perpetuity long after I'm gone.
And even if they try to heal, it's like, you know, they might make some progress, but then there's that video up again online because porn have actually had a download button on every single video where people, millions of users a day could possess that rape and then upload it again and again and again and again.
And so, yeah, we are going after, you know, what this exploitative, you know, I call them mega pimps, mega traffickers, corporate traffickers to bring them down and hopefully be an example to others and to deter future abusers.
You know, I think it's spectacular that you're putting financial pressure on them and having the lawsuits and all this stuff.
I'm having a hard time understanding why police officers aren't like kicking their doors down and dragging them out in chains.
Is there something wrong with the laws?
Is there something, you know, just the laws are good, but something else is getting in the way?
Why is that not happening?
You know, we have strong laws on the books that have been broken.
And, you know, like I said, in the U.S., they have been criminally charged by the Eastern District of New York.
Unfortunately, they were offered a deferred prosecution agreement, which is a deal that the government made with Pornhub's parent company where they had to pay a settlement of $1.8 million.
This was about a particular set of 100 victims in California that this was to do with.
And then to have a government monitor over their site for three years.
But that is not, that's not what justice looks like.
I mean, that's just a, that is a slap on the wrist.
And so I'm hopeful that, you know, the wheels of justice turn slowly, but they do turn.
And sometimes it takes years to see justice fully served.
And we've seen this again and again and again.
And I'm hopeful that the new administration, I hope that Pam Bondi, somebody that I know has a track record of caring about child sexual abuse, that cares about trafficking.
I'm hopeful that she can actually help take meaningful action against the site.
It should have been seized by the DOJ a long time ago.
There was a site called Backpage.com.
I don't know if you remember this, but it was a classified website in America, and they were selling cars and they were also selling children on the site, child sexual abuse.
Children were being trafficked.
They knew the site was seized by the DOJ.
If you go to backpage.com, there's a seal of the DOJ there that says seized by the DOJ.
The owners were criminally prosecuted.
Again, there was lawsuits, all this kind of similar stuff that's happening.
There's no reason why that shouldn't happen with Pornhub and its parent company after all that we know, after all that's been uncovered, all the evidence.
And let me tell you, in the civil lawsuits, there is evidence and there is information that is being uncovered in legal discovery.
That is so damning to the point of like CEO emails, the owners of the company emails and messages from the owners of the company recognizing and acknowledging what was taking place, refusing to take down certain keywords that indicated children that they were tracking to the dollar how much money they were making on very, very young and teen and all of these different categories and titles.
And, you know, even just them admitting that it was, quote, good and reasonable that they had hired out of 1800 employees, they had hired one person five days a week to review videos flagged by users as terms of service violations, including rape, child abuse, and trafficking.
And they had a policy set up intentionally where somebody would have to flag a video 15 times before it was even put in line for review.
So, Serena, so a victim, you know, a 12-year-old boy from Alabama, drugged, overpowered, and raped in 23 videos that were uploaded to Pornhub.
Rocky Shea Franklin, the abuser, spending 40 years in prison for what he did.
But if that victim wanted to get those videos down and he wanted to flag them, he would have to flag them over 15 times to even be put in line for review.
And they had a backlog of 706,000 videos.
And we have evidence now uncovered in legal discovery of prepubescent children who had their rape videos on there that had 13 flags, 14 flags, and they were on there for years, raking in profit for Pornhub.
I'm sure you can't answer this.
But I have to say, I'm baffled when you tell me that you have emailed, not you, but the courts have uncovered emails from the CEOs that they knew what they were doing.
I'm baffled why they're not in prison.
I don't understand that at all.
I mean, it just seems to me that.
Well, hopefully we'll see it.
You know, I mean, again, like the wheel, like it's been five years and five years may, you know, it seems like an eternity, but actually it's not that much time.
And we've come so far in five years that I am, I am fully hopeful that with this attention, with these conversations, that we will see justice fully served to the full extent of the law.
And I think at that point, we'll just say, okay, mission accomplished.
We can be done now.
Five Years On00:00:40
Yeah, well, from your mouth to God's ears.
Lila Micklewaite.
The book is Takedown Inside the Fight to Shut Down Pornhub for Child Abuse, Rape, and Sex Trafficking.
This has been more educational than I would have liked.
You'll give me nightmares, but go get them.
I hope you take them down.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate it.
Thanks for coming on.
That was tough to hear, I got to say.
I'm not sorry I heard it.
I think I needed to know it.
But these are things, obviously, that should be dealt with with fire and sword.
Good for Lila Micklewaite for doing it.
The book, again, is called Takedown.
I hope you will come to the show on Friday for the Andrew Clavin Show.