Spencer Klavan’s Light of the Mind, Light of the World reframes science and faith as allies, not adversaries, citing biblical descriptions of creation aligning with modern discoveries. He dismisses materialist critiques of God, instead urging believers to overcome shame and embrace faith’s deeper truths—like justice as a flawed but divine reflection—while adapting to modern challenges like birth control or gender debates. Klavan contrasts Orthodox churches’ rise amid chaos with surging Bible sales among seekers struggling to reconcile belief with lived experience, advocating for prioritizing the "fruits of the Spirit" over doctrinal rigidity. Even faith’s critics, like abortion advocates, inadvertently uphold moral principles rooted in divine design, suggesting theology must address real-world suffering to reclaim its relevance. [Automatically generated summary]
Hey everyone, it's Andrew Clavin with this week's interview with my son, Spencer Clavin, no relation.
And the reason I want to talk to Spencer is Spencer and I spent a lot of last year writing our substack called the New Jerusalem, the newjerusalem.substock.com, where we've been discussing basically the idea of God in a transhuman world, in a world where you can sort of choose your powers, choose the sort of things that you attach to yourself, choose the way you change your body and change even your mind.
How are we going to be guided and how to do those things and remain essentially human?
And Spencer has written a tremendous book, a book called Light of the Mind, Light of the World, Illuminating Science Through Faith.
It's gotten great reviews.
In fact, it's kind of, it came out last year, along with my book at almost the same day, I think.
But it's really catching on now as some of these intellectual journals catch up with it.
And it's a really wonderful book about the fact that really science not only does not disprove faith, but without faith, there really can be no science.
Faith is actually the Christian faith, especially is the sort of birthplace of science and the matrix of science, if you will.
So anyway, I wanted to invite Spencer on at the beginning of the year to talk about some of the things that are happening.
And so first of all, I'll say, hi, Spencer.
How are you doing?
Oh, hey, Dad.
Great to see you.
It's great to see you.
You know, the reason I actually wanted to talk to you is I feel that we've kind of talked about this ourselves, is that the argument that you're making is really important.
And you lay out in Light of the Mind, Light of the World, the argument you're making, you lay out how science sort of grows out of faith and sort of seems to arc away from it into a materialistic universe.
And then actually, in a surprise move, turns back to an almost biblical description of the universe.
But in some ways, it seems to me the argument for faith has been won.
You know, after I've predicted it for what must be like 10 years, there is an intellectual movement toward belief in God, a sort of recognition that the old materialist arguments have collapsed, that the things that we thought were disproving God have really fallen apart.
The four horsemen of the apocalypse, the atheists who came along, you know, and said, and became famous by saying there was no God and we cite someone.
Now it's tempted by the buffalo of the woke revolution.
Exactly.
Exactly.
The beast in the jungle again kind of wiped off the face of the earth.
And so I guess what I'm thinking is, what do you feel we should be talking about now?
Like, what do you feel in this?
I feel that so much of the ways we've gone wrong have to do with losing our faith in God, not any specific, although I do believe it's the Christian God we've lost.
It's not any specific version of theology that I'm worried about so much right now as finding our way back to simply not being afraid to believe and not being afraid to say we believe and not feeling that we're being stupid if we believe.
I think we've won that argument kind of, or we're winning that argument.
So what next?
Yeah.
Well, first of all, if only we had known that all we had to do to usher in a Christian revival was write four books and start a substack.
We would have done it a lot sooner, I assume.
Figured out.
Nobody told us.
Nobody told us.
True.
You think there would be instructions?
Maybe it's in Revelation and we missed it.
Anyway, I think you're right.
And I was reflecting on this the other day, how hopeful I feel.
I feel more hopeful now than I felt for a long time.
And that's saying something because I generally am quite hopeful.
I believe God's going to win.
I think that we are not toast yet as a nation.
But as you pointed out, it's kind of God's victory is a surprise twist ending.
And there are periods when it really looks dark as if how could we believe that people are going to come back to faith.
And I think we've lived through one of those periods.
I really grew up in one of those periods where the likelihood of mass popular and intellectual Christian revival felt incredibly remote, unspeakably distant, and it does not anymore at all.
And as I was reflecting on my book and a few of the books it's been paired with, like David Bentley Hart's new book about consciousness and God, I was thinking, you know, nothing against either of these books, but with any luck, these are the last of these kinds of books that will ever need to be written because we've spent so much time arguing against the case for materialism, insisting that material, whatever is true, materialism ain't it.
It seems absurd.
It's self-defeating.
It doesn't accord with people's basic experience of realities.
And for a long time, it's felt like we were shouting into the wind.
At this point, it feels actually like the materialist idea that we're all just stuff, just balls, chunks, humps of atoms, heaps of atoms rolling through an empty universe.
That's just so played out and it has failed politically, personally, philosophically, and indeed, as I argue in my book, even scientifically.
So you asked the right question.
We can stop, I think, refuting and we can start asserting.
What do we assert?
To me, and tell me what you think about this, the most interesting line of inquiry now is we know we wish to recover the ancient truths of the faith, but we also know, I think, that we can't reconstruct the old ways of life.
And that's a really difficult and important distinction.
It's the key to what the Bible calls idolatry, that you want to go back to certain truths that were once alive.
And so you instantly start to mimic certain outward ways that those truths were embodied.
And that doesn't work because we live in time and history has changed and many things genuinely have shifted.
There's new technology.
So for me, the real question is, how do we move into the 21st century, not in a kind of like rad way, exactly, except in the deep sense of the term, that we're looking for the spirit that was underlying the traditions and thinking about how to embody those anew in fresh ways.
You know, I think that's really true.
And I think, you know, I remember once having a conversation with Ben Shapiro where he said something like, you know, birth control, the birth control pill ruined everything.
And I said, it may have done, but it actually changed the field.
We can't reason without the birth control pill, without the availability of that pill.
So we have to confront ideas like chastity and celibacy.
We have to confront those ideas in a world where the pill exists.
And in the same way, Carl Truman, I was talking to Carl Truman and he said, unlike in the Middle Ages, if I lost my faith, he said, I wouldn't have to wonder whether the sun was going to rise tomorrow because I know that it rises.
You know, it doesn't need like angels to lift it up over the hill, or if they are there, we don't see them.
It's actually part of this.
Really is still out on that question.
But it is part of this mechanistic world that we do understand to some degree that they didn't before.
So we're not going to go back to the monks running up to fight off the demonic lightning strokes by ringing the bell and getting hit by lightning.
And we know that a lightning rod is a much better way to do that.
So that really does create certain things and certain problems with coming back to a true faith.
Because one thing that I've noticed, and I've noticed this in writing our substitute, the New Jerusalem, I've noticed that people like their orthodoxy.
They really will get into intense fights over things that, you know, I don't want to pick one out, but like over some kind of detail of theology that I don't actually think is going to be the question, the quiz we get on the last day.
I don't think they were going to get like, did you do this?
It's going to be, did you help the least of these?
Did you bring water to the thirsty, food to the hungry?
And I think that getting lost in those conversations, even though I think they actually matter, is a way of kind of keeping people out of the, out of closing the doors, as Jesus said, it's like locking the door to the temple.
And so, on the one hand, you have people attracted to orthodoxy because it gives them certainty, it gives them ritual, it gives them the kinds of things that put us in a religious state of mind.
But on the other hand, the orthodoxies sort of, I don't know, they ring kind of hollow in a way in a world where that we understand in a much different sense than we did before.
And I think that's a real tension we're going to have to at least acknowledge before we go forward.
Well, it strikes me how similar the situation you're describing is to the time of Jesus.
In other words, our time might be very like the time when Christ was born, appropriately, since it is still Christmas, if you're thinking about this.
You know, Jesus was born into a world run by an aspirant to one world government, run by a Caesar who hoped to bring all things under the sway of one political system, which is an impulse we see abroad in the land.
But he was also born into a culture that, for understandable reasons, had developed extremely rigid, and I would even say perhaps sclerotic, skeletal orthodoxies.
The second temple period of Judaism after the Babylonian exile created a situation in which the rituals became the only thing that the Jews were able to hold on to for a very, very long time.
And people don't understand this.
I don't think about the Pharisees, because we say, oh, woe to the scribes and Pharisees.
They were so silly.
They were so wedded to their old certainties, their old rituals.
But if you study the biblical history, you realize they had reason for that.
It's not like they just decided, woke up one day and decided like Scrooge or the Grinch that they were going to ruin Christmas.
They actually were defending against the kinds of assimilation and cultural dissolution and apostasy that had destroyed generations before them.
And so those orthodoxies that they were clinging to were in some sense vessels for life-giving truth.
But the form that they had taken, the insistence on these particular rituals at the expense of the truth of God, when it stands in your face, that was what was killing them and what was stopping them from moving forward.
It's very, very scary to admit that the thing you've developed to protect against theological innovation is also in some sense the thing that is stopping you from the best possible theology.
So we're in, I think, that position in the church a little bit.
And at the same time, you notice two things happening in the culture that actually seem really relevant to this.
One is that for a long time, the only growing churches have been these traditional Orthodox churches.
And so we don't want to spend time like just sniffing at orthodoxy.
It's clear that that order, that sense of purpose and understanding that we get from really good, solid traditional theology, that's appealing to people.
And you can see why in an age of deconstruction and chaos.
But the other thing that's happening kind of on the other side of the spectrum is that Bible sales are up by like 20%, more than 20% between this, the past October and the most recent October.
So from October 2023 to 2024, Bible sales spiked.
And you and I both sell books.
So we know that like 20 to 22% is a big spike.
This was a lot of people.
And it was not actually people that were thinking, ah, I now believe every word of the Nicene Creed.
It was people who saw a world in turmoil, felt that there was nothing on offer that could assuage or salve them.
And for some reason, reached for their Bibles.
And that there were cultural reasons for that.
There are historical, familial reasons for that.
But those are people who actually have more questions than they have certainties.
And some of the certainties, I think, feel to them as if they don't actually answer or meet their questions.
I think ultimately they do, but we're not doing a good job of like expressing how that orthodoxy impulse and that like inchoate reaching for the Bible impulse can meet with one another.
And to do that, I think you have to like admit that there are some realities on the ground, like the pitle, for instance, that have changed the game and that need responding to in new ways.
Because as we've been talking about at the New Jerusalem, the advance of technology opens up these new fields of choice and possibility where your biology used to set rules for you that basically worked, but there were problems.
Realities Of Mercy And Truth00:17:26
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Yeah, and, you know, once again, we're talking to Spencer Clavin, author of Light of the Mind, Light of the World.
I should mention that Spencer is not just my son.
He's also a Yale and Oxford trained PhD in classics, who speaks, what, like 147 languages, I think, including 12 or something.
When they think of a new one, I'll learn that one.
But I think that it's interesting to me that the orthodoxies, which attract, I go to a very Orthodox church and it's an Anglican Catholic church where we stick very closely to the liturgy and the liturgy I find nutritious and puts me in the mind of to have communion in a way that's very meaningful to me and has shaped my consciousness and very important.
But at the same time, I'm willing to argue anything with goodwill and I don't have to come back to any conclusion.
So that's really important.
I feel that one of the things that the Orthodoxies do is they imprison you so that they can imprison you so that you can't say, well, all right, let's take this in another direction.
Let's see if maybe there's another answer to this and talk about what this Bible means, because the Bible is the only report we have from the ground, from ground zero, where this event takes place that we believe is the central event of the world.
We should be responsible to it.
And I think there are different ways to be responsible to it.
There are people who take every word literally, which I don't think works for me.
And there have been people who take every word as being true, which I think does work for me.
It's a very, very different.
That's a very different thing to say.
And I think that this seems to me, like one thing that seems to me to be clear is even in the gospels, this tension exists between the individual's journey to God and the church's journey to God.
And it's like the things that St. Paul says are much more rule-based and restrictive than the things that Jesus says.
Jesus frequently takes a law that's very clear, you know, that if you're an adulteress, you should be stoned to death and rewrites it in a way that's impossible to quite get down on paper, you know, where he says, he says, you know, in order to get to the kingdom of God, you can't commit adultery.
Oh, here's an adulteress.
Not only will I not stone her, but I myself will not judge her.
I, God, will not judge her, even though he's, and people immediately say, yes, and he says, sin no more.
Well, I get it.
I get it.
But it's very complex.
It's a very, very human, indescribable thing to say, where St. Paul is dealing with a church, which has to be organized.
It has to keep some kinds of people out so that they don't shame the church, so that they don't alert the Roman authorities to come and kill them.
You know, he's setting up rules for how to live in a church, but he's not everything he says, like he'll say, don't dine with sinners.
And you think like, didn't Jesus do that?
Isn't that the whole point?
And so there are these discrepancies, and people get very upset when I say that because they say, no, there's no discrepancies.
But it's human.
The whole thing is human.
It's supposed to be alive.
So I think that the system for moving forward is there.
But I think that the closed, that there's a, especially in religion, there can be a closed mind that keeps us from taking the road that's right there in the Bible.
And just, if I can just add one more thing before letting you take this away, I also think this is built into the Protestant Catholic divide.
I believe that God meant for this to happen.
I believe that God meant for the churches to shatter.
I think he is teaching us the two things that seem that they're irreconcilable, which is the independence of the Protestant church and the authoritarian top-down structure of the Catholic Church, that these actually can be reconciled.
Even if they can't be reconciled philosophically, they can be reconciled humanely.
And I think that that's what we're looking at.
No question.
And I would add, I think, that this tension and resolution between like corporate rules and personal mercy is not unique to the New Testament.
In fact, it's consistent throughout the whole Bible and goes deep back into the Old Testament.
And I've just been meditating for other reasons upon the line in the Psalms that justice and peace have met, or justice and truth rather have met.
Righteousness and peace have kissed.
And this is a description of God's nature.
And I was thinking about how incredibly profound that line is, because throughout the whole Bible, especially in the Psalms, especially in Proverbs, but everywhere, these two attributes, mercy and truth, are linked in God.
God is often said he has abounding in mercy and truth, abounding in forgiveness and truth.
And these are two deep Hebrew concepts.
Chesed is the word that we translate as mercy, and it's something like loving kindness.
It's the generosity of a superior to an inferior that allows for the defects and brings what is lower up to the higher level.
And emet is what we translate as truth.
And that is something really at the level of like reality.
It's not just like the factual truth of how many books I have on my table.
It's the core basic reality of the world.
And so God somehow unites mercy and reality.
And what's so profound to me about that is that in our world, those two things often seem a million miles apart from one another.
There are people, most of them on the left, I would say, in fact, almost predominantly on the left right now, whose whole thing is about mercy and compassion.
But the form of compassion that, say, wokeness offers is a reality denying compassion.
It's in order to make space for trans people or whatever, people confused about their gender.
We have to totally upend the basic reality of male and female.
So mercy and reality, kindness and reality are in like total disarray, totally separate from one another on the left.
And then on the other end, I think on the right, sometimes you have reality, truth, with no mercy, with no room for anything different, for any kind of variety of life, for the woman weeping at Jesus' feet, whom Jesus forgives.
And that's the phenomenon that you're observing when you say that people get so angry, even when you like emphasize these things or when you acknowledge the complexities in them.
I think that's reality without mercy.
And so when the Bible says that in God, mercy and reality are one, have met, and justice and peace have kissed, it's basically saying that the character of God almost essentially is the place where these two things meet.
And because we're broken and because we're fallen and messy and living in time with imperfect solutions, we're always, I think, only able to hold one of those in our head at a time, or at least we have to take away from one column to put it in the other column.
And the Christian church, like broadly, which I agree with you, is a trans-historical situation encompassing the Protestant Reformation and the Catholic Church as it proceeds into the future.
And all of this is, I think, part of God's design.
But it's because each area of it only contains, can only contain so much of this whole truth, which is the union between reality and forgiveness.
Yeah, you know, and even interestingly, not just on the substack, the New Jerusalem, but even in this conversation, one of the things I noticed that when we talk is we are trying to discern what God means.
And in doing that, we don't just go to the Bible.
We also go to life.
We look at life and we have some sense that our sense of morality and God's sense of morality, there is an open line between those two.
The phone lines are open.
And so the very way that we're talking, like, what does God want us to do here?
What is God telling us here?
And first of all, I find that that is one of the most transformative things about faith is that we're going to face terrible things, all of us.
Every one of us is going to see terrible things.
We're going to see terrible injustice.
We're going to see terrible cruelty.
then we're going to face sickness and death, which is no fun whatsoever.
And all, and all, you know, in every moment, I'm sorry.
Thank you.
I'm sorry.
Nobody's told you.
Nobody gave me that rotation when I was growing up.
You're waiting for the musical to come out.
But the thing is, when you face these things and ask, what does God want me to make of this?
What does God want me to make of this thing?
You don't really turn to the sort of bromides of, you know, everything happens for a reason, or, you know, God is going to take you into heaven or all that stuff.
You're facing death.
You're facing pain.
You're facing limits on your abilities.
It's painful.
And the suffering is real.
And yet you have this question to ask that does start to have remarkable answers and does start to enlighten you.
These conversations have been shut down.
So you cannot say, as Lincoln said when he looked at the Civil War, it may be that every drop of blood drawn by the lash is going to have to be answered by a drop of blood drawn by the sword.
And that's going to tell us that God's justice is true and right altogether.
Those are things that you can't say in a schoolroom, for instance.
You can't discuss.
What did God mean?
What was God looking for in this in an open way?
And unfortunately, I feel that a lot of people of faith, good people of faith, and I'm not scoring them on this.
I'm just saying that this is a function.
When they talk about theology, they are not comparing their theology to reality.
They're not comparing the incredible infinite mercy of God who sits with sinners and dines with sinners and forgives with the real outcomes, real life outcomes of their theology.
So for instance, if you're setting a witch on fire and telling her, a woman on fire, telling her, this is good for you because we're going to purge your soul.
It's like, thanks anyway.
I'll pass.
And I think that it's really easy to get to that place.
I have seen people get into vicious fights over little points of theology that you just think like, hey, we'll find out, but that's not what we're going to be answerable for in the end.
And so, yeah.
I'm just wondering, is there a way to introduce those conversations back into the world as we move into this era when you'll be able to have maybe a baby born in a toaster in your kitchen?
You know, like these are the things that are going to be very important.
Yeah.
They certainly will be.
I'm still fixated on the toaster baby.
No, you said something like that.
Lego, baby.
Yeah.
Right.
Right.
Exactly.
Egg.
Egg, baby.
I've got one of those for Christmas.
No, like the thing that you said that I, that was so important that I wanted to make sure I responded to is that God's righteousness and his total truth about morality has overlap with our moral sense and our moral intuition.
His is perfect, ours is flawed.
Ours develops in time.
His is eternal and always true.
These are all facts, but they're not completely unrelated to each other.
There's Venn diagram overlap.
Our reality is not like Swahili to God's Greek, right?
There is some sort of connection there.
The other thing I think that's true is that our sense of goodness, joy, and love is also related to the truth of God's goodness, joy, and love.
And I think that my Calvinist friends will probably get mad about this or question me here, because there is a line of especially Protestant thinking that holds, well, man's nature is so deprived and depraved, so deprived of God and so depraved that we can't actually trust any of our moral intuitions.
Because look at how people in the past thought slavery was fine, for instance.
And so it's clearly possible to be convicted on a moral point and yet in error.
And of course, that's true, but it doesn't actually follow that our general sense of what is joy and what is not, of what is goodness and what is not, of what is love and what is not, it doesn't follow that that is like completely off base or unrelated to the realities of what God wants for us.
In fact, I think that our truest intuitions of goodness and love are actually perhaps our closest route to God, or they're our detection system for God, right?
This is when the radar pings and you think, wow, this is like, look how good and how pleasant this or that is.
Then you, I think, know that you might be tacking closer to the direction that God wants you to go.
And this is important because it does mean that if you look at a guy burning a woman at the stake for her own good, then that moral revulsion that arises in you at that is not irrelevant.
You don't have to just like crowd that out and insist on your whatever theological argumentation you have.
In fact, your moral doubts, your inclinations might actually have information to tell you.
And I raise all this because I think this is what Paul is talking about when he talks about the fruits of the spirit, right?
The joy, patience, long-suffering charity.
Against such things, there is no law, that like there is a way in which when we're able to discern where those good fruits lie and how to generate more of them, then like all of our pre-existing sort of theories about what's good kind of take a backseat to like, we're discovering what's good in real time through this moral sense, this moral intuition.
And more and more, I'm coming to feel like if I have a theology, my theology is the fruits of the spirit.
And the reason for that is that like, you know, in my other life, I'm a classicist, so not a biblical scholar at all, but a student of pagan antiquity.
And one thing that the ancient Greeks and Romans are really good about is virtue, which is something we all, I think, could use more of, could talk more about, need to be thinking about.
But virtue is like very closely tied to ethics and morality.
And when people get in those conversations, it's very easy to slip into like all the stuff that you can't do, that you shouldn't do, that is bad, and you should feel bad for doing the bad stuff, which is all real.
But something that, for example, Aristotle is just wonderful on is like all of that bad stuff needs to be cleared away so that you can thrive, like so that you can literally live your best life.
And similarly, you know, when you enter into a relationship with God, we start asking these social moral questions from a theological standpoint.
Theological Thriving00:02:59
There are things you can't do.
You have to give things up.
I don't think you're allowed to make babies and toasters, like if you reason these things out inside of God.
But the reason for that is that you are actually going to be stunted and miserable and diminished by that exchange.
Whereas, like, if you tack in the other direction, you will be fruitful and joyful and full of life.
Still going to suffer, still going to lots of things, still going to suck.
But I think this is really, really key for not just for people who maybe are inclined to listen to their orthodoxies at the expense of their sense of joy and love, but also for people who are afraid that what God wants is to shut down some domain of truth or excellence or goodness that they now feel they have.
In fact, the opposite is true.
What we're aiming for is to mine life for its awesome sauce.
And we just think that that's what God wants to give you, basically.
Yeah, you know, it's funny, as you were talking, I was thinking that even the abortionists, and I truly believe there's no good argument for abortion, you know, but even the abortionists make their arguments by saying this is a woman's right to choose.
So this is a person, therefore she has a right.
And they say, oh, look, here's a woman in this terrible situation.
She can't afford this baby or whatever.
And they say, so there's a good thing that they think should be done.
They're just excluding the baby because they can't see it.
The baby can't cry out.
The baby doesn't have a voice.
So they're excluding the baby from those rights of humanity that they recognize.
They recognize and those rights only exist in God.
So they're actually talking about it without meaning to, without accepting the full ramifications of it.
I think those are the conversations I think we should be having.
We're out of time.
I could kind of continue for another couple of hours, actually, but we do continue at the newjerusalam.substack.com.
And we've been on hiatus and we'll be back probably about three or four days, maybe a week before we can get back.
But we will be back having this conversation.
The book is Light of the Mind, Light of the World, Illuminating Science Through Faith.
The author is my son, Spencer Clavin, No Relation.
It's great to see you.
Great to see you too.
Talk to you later.
We'll talk again.
All right.
Well, what an intelligent, you know, interesting and well-behaved and articulate young man.
So you clearly know that I married well because obviously he's truly no relation to me.
And it's great talking to him.
I could have carried on that conversation for hours.
As I say, we will carry it on at thenewjerusalam.substack.com, where we have many, many conversations that you can find there, parts of our conversation that you can find there already.
I think this is going to be the theme of the years before us is going to be what we should be talking about when we talk about God, because really that's the thing that matters more than anything else.
Also, it matters that you show up on Friday for the Andrew Clavin show.