Konstantin Kisin, comedian-turned-social-commentator and Trigonometry co-host (1M YouTube subs), warns of rising UK censorship—arrests for silent prayer near abortion clinics or gender critiques—blaming economic stagnation and record immigration since 1997. He contrasts Britain’s NHS struggles with America’s entrepreneurial energy but fears political divisions and gun culture, joking about a "second civil war." Though liberal on drugs, Kisin now calls left-wing immigration policies extreme, even compared to past figures like Schumer or Clinton. His shift reflects broader unease over cultural takeovers amid global demographic upheaval, yet he praises Trigonometry’s diverse, open-minded audience as a counterbalance. [Automatically generated summary]
Hey everyone, it's Andrew Claven with this week's interview with Constantin Kissen.
Constantin is a Sunday Times best-selling author, satirist, social commentator, and he's creator and co-host of Trigonometry, which if you've never seen it, is really a wonderful series of interviews.
It's now, I think, just about to come up to a million subscribers, which is insane.
Constantin is a highly intelligent commentator.
I've seen him give speeches and write articles that are really, really incisive, very articulate defender of the West as a guy who came over here from someplace not anywhere near as pleasant.
So he knows a lot about how things can go wrong.
Constant, it's great to see you.
How are you doing?
It's great to be with you, Andrew.
Thank you for having me.
And I'm pleased to say yesterday we did hit a million subscribers on YouTube with Trigonometry.
So it's something to celebrate.
That is amazing.
I should mention, by the way, that you also are, you are co-hosts with Francis Foster.
And both of you kind of have roots in comedy, right?
I mean, it's kind of strange that you're now moved over.
What brought you from comedy over to this?
Well, yeah.
So Francis still does stand up.
I don't.
But you say it's interesting.
I mean, actually, if you look at some of the people who are doing interview shows nowadays, you know, Joe Rogan, Dave Rubin, the two examples of comedians, or in Dave's case, former comedians who do that.
And I think, you know, it's a combination of perhaps not thinking you're an expert, but also being interested in ideas, being willing to ask questions, and the ability occasionally to inject a bit of humor to lighten the mood, to take a kind of different direction, which I think is helpful as well.
Did you come up against the kind of humorless wokeness working as a comedian that, you know, that we've seen here a little bit of anyway?
Well, you guys are very fortunate in America.
And I think that the American attitude to comedy and freedom of speech more generally kind of chewed wokeness up and spat it out.
And now you have, you know, great scenes like the one in Austin in New York, where you're not really going to get in trouble for telling offensive jokes because no one really cares.
In the UK, however, we've got a gigantic issue with that.
I don't think that I wouldn't claim that, you know, I was ever canceled for doing offensive material.
But then the thing is, I was never that offensive as a comedian.
I just thought I was looking around and I thought that this industry, which in the UK is one industry, there's five people who control the entire thing.
It just seemed to me like it was going in the wrong direction.
By the way, not to blow my own trumpet, but I would certainly say I've been proven right on that over the last six years because pretty much every single major comedy TV show that we have in this country has since stopped being in existence.
It ceased to exist.
Really?
And that's because they basically stopped making the main thing the main thing.
They stopped caring about what's funny and they started caring a lot more about, you know, what the writers have between their legs and how much pigmentation they have in their skin and all of these other things.
And very good shows that we had, Mock the Week, MASH Report, which I actually used to write for, they've all disappeared because they can't compete, particularly with the online world where no one really cares about who you are.
They care about whether you make them laugh or not.
That's really interesting.
I mean, that reminds me of Robin Williams on German TV.
He was asked why Germans had no comedy and he said, you killed all the funny people.
And in England, it's amazing because when I lived in England in the 90s, some of the stuff I would watch there that never made it over here was as funny as anything I had ever seen.
And I remember lying on my floor in my apartment, laughing so hard because of the wit of English people to hear that that wit has been snuffed out is really depressing.
Well, that's great.
We've DEI'd all the funny people.
We haven't killed them.
We've just DEI'd them out of the mainstream.
And now they're doing stuff elsewhere.
But look, I'm a big believer in the market.
I think the American example shows that if you push people out, they will find a way, particularly with the internet.
And so, you know, I'm not someone who's whining and complaining.
Francis and I started Trigonometry.
We have a million subscribers now.
I'm a Sunday Times best-selling author.
Life is great.
I'm not complaining.
But they did kill the golden goose.
And it's sad to see because a lot of the people actually who watch mainstream television in this country, they're the older generation who are less likely to go and find stuff online.
And they are now effectively deprived of good comedy, which, as you say, is actually a British staple and a quintessential aspect of the British character.
I mean, I'm serious.
When I would go to dinner parties in England, I mean, you just felt this incredible responsibility to try and be a little bit witty because everybody else was just so funny all the time.
And they did it, you know, with incredible panache and quiet, you know, kind of quiet wit that was really killing.
Attitudes Shaped by Dissatisfaction00:09:07
It's kind of, I'm depressed to hear this.
But this is kind of what I want to talk to you about.
I mean, you, you came over here from basically from Russia, and you wrote, you wrote a book that was a love letter to the West.
Talk a little bit about that.
I mean, just your attitudes.
Before we start to talk about England and what it means for America, talk a little bit about that, how your attitudes were shaped and why your attitudes are different than people who maybe took a lot of this for granted.
Well, I grew up in the Soviet Union.
So first and foremost, I had that experience.
And, you know, one of the things I talk about in an immigrant's love letter to the West is my parents sending me off to school at the age of seven with two sets of instructions.
Number one, do not repeat outside the home anything we discuss here because we'll all be in trouble.
And number two, you're going to get taught a bunch of BS at school about, you know, the ideology, the dominant way of thinking in society, you know, what's a good communist, why you should be one, all of that.
And that's all BS, as I say.
Don't buy into it.
If you have any questions, ask us.
But when you start getting indoctrinated about this, this and that, don't believe it.
So I had the kind of inoculation.
They had to have the chat with me.
And I'm starting to think without exaggerating too much that both of those things are increasingly starting to apply to our society today, where, you know, parents are having to inoculate their children against some bad ideas that they're being increasingly exposed to in schools, in colleges, and frankly, in the culture, broader culture out there.
So that was the first bit.
The second bit is I watched the Soviet Union collapse.
So unlike most people who assume that the way things are today is the way they will always be for perpetuity, with nothing ever changing, no matter what else we mess around with, I'm fully aware that societies are not permanent.
Systems of thought are not permanent.
Economic systems are not permanent.
And so the idea that what we enjoy in the West today will last for a thousand years seems to me to be a little bit naive.
And more importantly than that, I believe that whether the West remains powerful and dominant and strong and prosperous and confident is highly dependent on the things that we do as individuals and on the people we elect and on what we do as a culture and what we do as a society.
So I learned those two lessons early on.
And then I came to 1990s Britain.
You know, I don't know if it's just the fact that I was young, but 1990s seems like a pretty good period in the history of our nations to me.
And I then watched this society to which my parents sent me at great personal cost.
happened with my family was my father was uh my parents rather were very very poor when i was born to the point where and again something i talk about in the book my mother would go and pick apples in the university courtyard to make food to make rice and apples that was the dish that we would have quite regularly because we couldn't afford to buy food um we went from that to being very very rich very quickly in the 1990s russia and then back to being very very poor in the space of about 10 years In that interim,
my parents had the opportunity to send me to school in England and they used all the money that they'd made basically to do that before becoming poor again.
And so they sent me over to England.
I'm thinking this is a great place, you know, freedom of expression, do whatever you want, be whoever you want to be, all of this great stuff.
And then as I start to get into my mid, you know, late 20s, early 30s, I'm doing stand-up and I see the world around me start to change.
I see a lot of the things that we used to take for granted and frankly celebrate, you know, the idea that we are all free to have our own opinions.
We're all free to express our opinions in public.
All of these things start to deteriorate very quickly.
And most importantly, you know, the idea that we should all be treated as individuals on the content of our character, that became just completely controversial all of a sudden.
And instead, we were supposed to look at each other through the prism of our identity.
And I thought that was incredibly strange.
And then when Brexit happened, people just started saying all this ridiculous stuff.
You know, I was a Remain voter, which for your American listeners is the equivalent of voting for Hillary in 2016.
And then, you know, Brexit happens.
And I'm like, well, what the hell happened?
And then all the people around me started saying, well, yeah, you know, the reason this happened is, you know, half of Britain is racist.
Half of Britain hates immigrants.
And I was like, well, I came here as a young dark-skinned boy in the mid-90s when people were less tolerant of difference than they are today.
And almost universally, my experience in the West, in the UK particularly, but in the West more broadly, has been a kind of welcoming curiosity.
If you tell people, well, you know, I'm from abroad, they'll say, oh, really?
Where are you from?
And start talking to you about that.
So then to go from my experience, lived experience, which we're now told is very important to, you know, half the country is racist.
That made no sense to me.
And that is around the time when we decided, Francis and I, to start having conversations with people who could open our eyes to things that we didn't understand because we just knew that the mainstream narrative about what we were being told could not possibly be true.
Yeah, it was amazing.
I mean, I was there.
That was when I lived there.
It was in the 90s.
And it was great.
I mean, it was really wonderful.
Even some of the things that opened up the country to fresh influences from the outside, the food got better for one important thing.
And it needed to.
Yes.
And, you know, there was more open racism in Britain than in America because America is the least racist country on earth, as nobody ever says, but it's absolutely true.
But other than that, it wasn't really virulent.
Now I'm looking at things.
And one of the things I learned from living in another country is you don't really get the atmosphere of that country from the news all the time.
So I'm looking at the news from Britain now, and I'm reeling.
I mean, people being arrested for praying silently outside an abortion clinic, people being visited by the police for making comments about the fact that you can't become, a man can't become a woman online and get a visit from the police.
How pervasive is this?
Are you really living in that kind of police state now?
Or is that just overdone online?
Well, look, those things are happening.
And to me, even one of those cases is one case too many.
I'm a huge fan of the United States, as you know.
We visit regularly and talk to people like you and many others.
And I think the First Amendment and much more importantly, the First Amendment culture that exists in America, the idea that anyone should be able to speak their mind, that is incredibly valuable.
We don't have that in the UK.
We don't have a First Amendment.
And the government is keen to crack down on what people say.
Now, when I go outside to do the shopping to pick up some groceries, are people being dragged away by the police in front of me for saying the wrong thing?
No, that isn't being literally taking place right in front of me on a daily basis, but it is happening and quite likely to happen more and more as things go on, because I think one of the reasons that we are seeing more of this is that there is more dissatisfaction with the direction of travel.
Our economy is not in a good way.
We have, like many other European and frankly, America itself countries, we have very high levels of immigration, which our politicians use to pretend that the economy is growing, while GDP per capita is actually falling pretty precipitously.
And so the attempt to suppress people's expression, you know, often clumsy, often expressed in not the right way necessarily, but an ordinary person isn't someone who's been media trained out of their brain to give the right statement on every issue.
I think the attempt to suppress speech is really a reflection of the fact that the people in charge are losing control of the narrative.
And many, many people are increasingly dissatisfied with what is happening in the country.
So the restriction of speech, I think, horrifies many Americans.
It's not like every single person is being dragged off to prison for saying the wrong thing.
But we've had the absolutely insane spectacle this week of the government releasing prisoners, including people who committed violent crimes, from prison early so that they could put into prison some of the people that were arrested during the recent riots, some of whom were arrested, frankly, for shouting or swearing or being rude to the police or whatever.
And that obviously is a contrast.
You see these people being released from prison, committed armed burglary, for example.
And then we are putting people in who said something offensive to a police officer in the middle of a riot.
So it's not a good situation for sure.
And my sense is that it's going to get worse over time.
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Great Reset Divide00:15:13
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So the riots recently were basically about immigration.
Not only were the riots, Brexit was about immigration.
So many of the elections have been about immigration.
Even the fact that this far-left government has come in has been dissatisfaction with the right for not stopping immigration.
Why the hell won't they stop the immigration?
Well, one of the reasons is the reason I told you.
So we had the former Home Secretary, Suella Braverman, on trigonometry a little while ago.
The Home Secretary is the person who handles all domestic affairs like immigration, policing, crime, the criminal justice system, etc.
So one of the most senior politicians in the country whose job it is to deal with immigration.
And she said basically without equivocation on our show, that the reason politicians don't stop immigration is so that they can pretend the economy is growing.
That's why they're doing it.
And just to put it into a little bit of perspective for your audience, Andrew, we had the Blair government in charge of the country, so left of center government from 1997 through to 2010.
Well, technically 2008, then Gordon Brown takes over.
So that government was in charge between 1997 and 2010.
That's 13 years.
In that time, we had more people come into the country than we'd had since the Battle of Hastings in 1066 and 1950.
So more people come into the country in 13 years than it come in nine centuries.
And then when that government was replaced with a conservative government in 2010, they were in charge until 2014.
They doubled that number again.
It's amazing.
That's amazing.
So we have had, and look, this is not a point against immigrants or against immigration.
I personally believe that the right level of immigration is not zero.
Immigrants can be hugely beneficial to a country when they're carefully chosen and culturally suited and blah, All the things that we sensible people understand.
But you cannot have these levels that are completely unprecedented with people unable to integrate, frankly, rapid change in communities over such a short period of time.
And the reason is not that politicians think that it is beneficial to the country, it's because they think it's beneficial to their chances of clinging on to power.
So, well, two things.
I mean, Americans have to understand that England, Britain, Great Britain is the size of Oregon.
So that's the first thing they have to understand.
Secondly, you're not a country of immigrants as we are.
When I lived there, I think it must have been 95% white British people.
I mean, white English people where I was.
And this was a country with plenty of, you know, I was in London.
It was a multicultural city, but it was still a British country, which I'm not sure it really feels that way now.
And, you know, it's not a question of disliking Islamic people, by the way, because it's not Islamic people's fault that they're taking over the country.
It's the British people's fault for letting that happen.
At some point, however, if you've got a religion or a culture that's antithetical to the home culture, it does become a kind of takeover, becomes an invasion.
At some point, aren't the invaded people going to rebel?
Aren't the invaded people going to fight back?
Is that not inevitable?
I don't know.
I think one of the things that it's important to remember, Andrew, is that it's not just about numbers.
It's also about how people feel.
And my sense is that, for example, the Muslim community is incredibly united, monocultural, with a very strong sense of their identity and what they believe.
Whereas The white British population is incredibly divided.
And half of them, frankly, welcome the demographic change because they've been told and they believe that diversity is our greatest strength and so on and so forth.
So I don't know.
I think the riots we just saw were the spilling out of frustrations about things like illegal immigration and immigration.
But my sense is that we are probably going to see these flare-ups time and again, but without necessarily having some kind of comprehensive revolution or rebellion, or we could.
It's simply something that's unknowable.
I see, as I look around at many other European countries who are very much in the same position, including many of the ones that we keep being told are the model for progressive liberal democracy, countries like Sweden and Denmark and so on, taking very drastic action on immigration, taking drastic action on the failure of multiculturalism.
They're literally in Sweden now offering people money to go back to countries from which they've come and taking all sorts of other measures in many countries.
Germany is talking very tough on immigration now.
So we simply don't know.
We simply don't know.
And we should say, I think it's really important to say that nobody wants bloodshed on the streets.
Nobody wants these kind of violent outbreaks.
Nobody wants rebellion.
What I think people, as you alluded to earlier, have been voting for for decades now is a sensible immigration policy that allows us to have a cohesive society.
That's what I'd like us to have.
But you're saying they bring these people in to make it sound like the seem like the economy is growing when it's not.
Some of that has got to have to do with the essentially socialist programs that have been installed in Britain since World War II, including the national health, which, by the way, I don't know how to break this to you, sucks.
It's not that the people aren't nice and it's not like the care, the standard care isn't good, but it's nothing like we had here before Obamacare.
I mean, it was better here.
I remember going to a British doctor and having him, I had a problem with my throat.
And he looked down my throat and he said, I suppose if you were in America, they'd be doing a lot of tests.
And I said, yes, they call that medicine.
It was really, it was really backward.
But are people unwilling to give that up?
I mean, I know that you guys worship the national health, like it's a national religion.
Isn't there a problem there?
I mean, if you're not willing to.
Well, you worship it until you come into direct contact with it.
And then there are two things that will happen.
If you are there for emergency care, if you break your arm, as I did a few years ago, or if you, you know, you need to go to accident emergency, you're going to get great care.
Yeah.
Yes.
You really are.
And the people who work there are in front of us.
Lovely people.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
But if you need to manage your cholesterol levels, or if you need some kind of routine procedure, or if you need some, you'll be waiting for years and you'll probably be denied care because it's too expensive and blah, blah, blah.
So everyone I know who can afford it has private health insurance in the UK.
Everyone, including people for whom it's really a stretch to be able to afford it.
Because without it, you're frankly not going to get the care and the treatment that you need.
Now, I don't think people are going to be able to be willing to give that up.
And one of the reasons is that most people can't afford private health care.
So to them, well, it's either we have the NHS or we don't.
That's how people think.
And look, I agree with you.
I think that one of the most important things for a country is to encourage dynamism and encourage small businesses in particular to invest and to spend money and to hire people.
And I see that now when we run a small business, you know, trigonometry now has staff.
And I know that when you raise my taxes, it's not that I don't buy another yacht.
I never wanted a yacht in the first place.
What I want is to invest in the thing that I'm doing and make it bigger and, you know, pay more people to do more things so that we can create a better product for our customers, right?
For our audience.
But we do have a more communitarian society here in Europe.
People think more about, let's say, looking after the people at the bottom of society, then making sure that the people at the top are able to do and create and build and whatever.
Those are trade-offs.
I don't really see people in the UK give that up.
And frankly, in the democratic system, I think it's difficult to see that happen because you have, you know, the majority of people who benefit from the taxes of the minority.
Why wouldn't they keep voting to get more and more of those taxes for themselves?
So you come over here a lot.
I see you a lot.
I'm always happy to see you.
You come to America.
What do you see when you compare that to where you are?
Look, I think America, you guys do everything to 11, right?
So you've got, you just do everything, right?
Like your religious people are incredibly zealous and your non-religious people are incredibly non-religious and your businesses are incredibly good and your problems are incredibly bad.
And, you know, people who are at the bottom of your society live incredibly terrible lives and the people at the top live incredibly wonderful lives.
And that is just America in a nutshell.
For me, coming over, I just see the tremendous opportunity.
What I see is people who are really driven to be the very best of themselves, who are passionate about doing things, building things, creating things.
There's that energy of a young nation, which is still, you know, you have the mindset of a people who conquered a continent and you're still conquering it.
There's still land that hasn't been built on.
There's still cities that are developing.
There's things to expand.
And it's a wonderful attitude to see.
It's a wonderful attitude to see.
Then again, when I look at your politics, it's incredibly bitter and divided and people are incredibly angry.
And that worries me, particularly in a country that, you know, has the number of firearms that you guys do.
I always say that, you know, I'm keen to one day move to America, but I'm going to wait for you to have your second civil war first.
Then I'll move after that.
I don't know.
I hope that never happens, but it sort of feels like that to me.
People are very, very, very angry and very polarized.
And that troubles me because I love America and I love American people and I think it's a wonderful culture.
So yeah, it's the best of everything and the worst of everything all in one place.
Yeah, yeah.
Talking to Constantin Kissen, who's host with Francis Foster trigonometry.
You know, first of all, now that you have a million people subscribing to trigonometry, which is just an amazing feat, where do they come from?
Well, I think it's about 40% US, 40% UK, and the other 20% is the rest of the Anglosphere.
We've obviously had the great privilege of speaking to plenty of people in the United States with you and lots of other Daily Wire people, you know, Ben Shapiro, Matt Walsh, we've had on the show as well.
And I'm sure we'll have plenty more, but also many, many others from, you know, the Sam Harris's of the world to the Jordan Petersons to everybody's.
But also we have a very strong UK contingent.
And frankly, we're just interested in the direction of the West.
I had the privilege to spend some time in Australia earlier this year and see what's happening there.
And we've had Australian guests on the show.
So it's all over the place, really, but the Anglosphere in particular.
And do you get into any trouble with the comments that people make?
I mean, if you have somebody on who says the kinds of horrible things that I say, would that cause you any kind of legal difficulty?
No.
I mean, look, we called it trigonometry for a reason, right?
And the point was not, you know, we're not some kind of, you know, crazy online idiots who are just trying to trigger and annoy people.
What we were trying to say with that show name was, look, this might offend you.
That's part of the process of intellectual inquiry.
We're going to speak to different people and we're going to let you and ourselves, frankly, find out whether we agree with what they say or not.
And I believe, and Francis believes, and we believe as a team, that the way society advances is when we do not sweep things under the rug, when we talk about the things that matter openly.
And that, I believe, is one of the reasons that not only are we seeing a lot of success, but actually, Andrew, something I'm really pleased about is we are not just speaking to an echo chamber of the people that already agree with us.
We are really bringing people in from the left and the center and the right together into one place where they can hear from different sides and they can make up their own mind.
And they can say, well, look, this crazy American right-wing Andrew Clavin guy, he actually made some good points.
And I thought what he said about, you know, movies and why they've gone the way they've gone is actually a really valid point.
And likewise, you know, we've had people from the left come in and some of them make good points too.
And that I think is the way that we want to position our show.
There are lots of people who do things in a different way and that's great too.
But that's our mission to try and bring people together in a space where they can hear different ideas and accept that sometimes hearing unpleasant things that you don't currently agree with is part of life and that's okay.
You know, first of all, the show is terrific.
I mean, really, and you really do great interviews.
When I first met you, you were very concerned.
And Francis too, were very concerned about the idea that you might catch the conservative bug.
You were actually kind of liberal people, as people in show business tend to be.
And you were sort of worried.
And I kind of was teasing you about it, about that and about God.
I always tease you about God because you always approach God from a practical point of view as opposed to asking the question of whether he's actually there or not, if some sort of God is there.
Now that you realize that I'm right about everything, have you changed it all?
Teasing About God00:03:02
Have you moved it all?
Do you feel that you're moving in one direction or the other?
You know, I feel that I'm in the process of intellectual inquiry.
And so I pick up ideas and I think, you know, for example, my views on drug policy are as liberal as they've always been.
I think, you know, drug use is a some drugs people should be able to take freely.
That's my opinion.
And also, to the extent that there are very addictive drugs that are really damaging to people, I think that's a health issue and they should be treated like that.
And I don't think that's my opinion on that is likely to change because it's kind of based on the fact as I see them.
There are plenty of other things on which, you know, one of the things that's happened, Andrew, as I think you'll allude to, and you know that in my book, I have a whole chapter, for example, about immigration.
And I quote everyone from Chuck Schumer to Hillary Clinton to all the left-wing politicians in America and in the UK, Barack Obama and all of them.
And they all sound to the right of Donald Trump now.
So my view is that, you know, the society has changed.
My view on immigration is a left-wing view.
It's just all the people on the left have gone crazy.
That's how I see it, right?
So I don't think I'm particularly moving.
I'm having a lot of personal experiences that change how I think about things.
As I mentioned earlier, running a small business has shown me the importance of making sure that we don't step on the throats of people who are creating jobs.
And that's something that's been very, very helpful.
But look, I hope that one of the things that has come out of the many great conversations we've had with you is that while I'm not sure that I've made the leap to on the God question to God is real and I believe in him.
I've never been, you know, in my public life since in the last six or seven years, someone who's denigrated religion or denigrated faith, because that's not my view at all.
And I think whether you personally believe in God or not is kind of irrelevant to the question that as you look around at society that is losing its faith, that's got some negative trade-offs, to put it diplomatically, in a typical British understatement.
So yeah, you know, I'm continuing to explore and so is Francis and we'll continue to do that.
It's great talking to you.
I'm out of time.
Constant and Kizen, go on Trigonometry and join their million viewers.
And Francis, we're constantly co-hosts with Francis Foster.
It is great talking to you.
I hope you're back in town soon.
And I hope you have continued success.
Thank you, my friend.
It's great to see you always.
It's great to see you.
All right.
This is Constant and Kizen, who with Francis Foster is the host of Trigonometry.
Two excellent guys, by the way, just absolutely terrific guys and a really good show.
Another great show that you'll want to catch is the Andrew Clavin Show, which is on on Friday.