Megan Basham’s Shepherds for Sale exposes how leftist billionaires like George Soros and Pierre Omidyar fund fake evangelical grassroots groups—such as the Evangelical Immigration Table—to push progressive policies, including open borders and climate agendas, while pastors unknowingly endorse them via vague statements. Christianity Today, once Billy Graham’s conservative voice, now prioritizes gun control and climate coverage over child protection policies. The Arcus Foundation’s $100M+ in LGBTQ grants fractured denominations like the United Methodist Church. Basham warns evangelical leadership’s cultural appeasement risks alienating rank-and-file conservatives, with 50% of mainline Protestants voting for Trump despite liberal clergy, while deconstruction movements grow among younger believers. The book’s revelations may spark backlash but underscore systemic erosion of conservative Christian influence. [Automatically generated summary]
Hey everyone, it's Andrew Claven with this week's interview with the wonderful Megan Basham.
I always like talking to Megan, especially because I feel that there are two essential weaknesses on the right.
One of them is the culture and one of them is reporting.
And Megan, as you probably know, is the Daily Wire's culture reporter and she does a great job of seeing the culture, not the way I see it from the cultural point of view, but from the stuff that goes on behind the culture and how the culture comes to you.
And she has a book now that I am in the middle of reading called Shepherds for Sale, How Evangelical Leaders Traded the Truth for a Leftist Agenda.
And it is not maybe the most cheerful book you'll ever read, but it is a really well-researched and well-written and insightful look at what has happened to a certain segment of the Christian community.
Megan, it's always good to see you.
How are you doing?
I'm doing great.
And it's great to be here again.
Had a little hiatus because I was working on this book.
Yeah, I know.
And you obviously were working hard on it.
It's an incredible act of research.
I mean, it's always been one of the things that I like best about your work.
And also, I just want to say it was lovely to meet your other two dimensions at the RNC.
It was nice to actually meet you in person.
That was the first time we ever met in person, right?
Yes.
And that seems unbelievable, but it's true.
I was able to determine there is a real Andrew Claven.
He is not an AI creation.
And that was great.
That was a big disappointment to me to find that out.
I thought I had been much better.
So let's talk about this.
I mean, before we get into the meat of the book, Shepherds for Sale, explain to people, because not everybody is an evangelical and not everybody even cares what the evangelicals are.
Why do we care about this so much?
Well, if you are any sort of a conservative or even just a patriot, you need to care about evangelicals because they are roughly 30% of the electorate and they have rightly been called by legacy media outlets like The Atlantic, America's most powerful voting bloc.
So they don't always win at the ballot box, but they are what you might think of as the firewall to some very bad policies.
So things like fossil fuel regulation, open borders policies, some fights that they lost on marriage and abortion, obviously, but all of these things you can consistently count on evangelicals to be the most conservative voting bloc.
Yeah.
And I mean, you talk about the way during the Cold War, the communists went out of their way to infiltrate this world, to get them to say, sign on, for instance, to something that does sound kind of Christian, which is like, you know, limiting missiles, limiting nuclear, you know, cutting back on our nuclear arsenal and all this.
And I remember this.
I remember this became a sort of Christian issue.
But it was a lot of it was actually the communists working behind the scenes, right?
Yeah.
And, you know, I'm very indebted to the research of Professor Paul Kenger at Grove City College for that.
He did tremendous work on it.
And essentially, starting in the 1930s, the Communist Party USA worked really hard to infiltrate these churches to get them to use churchy language to advance Marxist policies.
So you would hear them frequently talking about things like wealth inequality and their concerns over that.
And it sounds very similar to what we hear today.
And in fact, sometimes it's the exact same terms.
And so at that time, they managed to convince about 20 to 30 percent of Episcopalian rectors, which I was a mainline church, but it was the most dominant influential denomination at the time.
And so they convince them to take part in these communist activities.
And the idea is to create a trickle-down effect.
So you get the church leaders to preach a social gospel to a captive audience in those pews in the hopes that the people in those pews will then go out and back progressive policies.
And it was incredibly effective.
And we see very similar things happening today with not mainline as much, but evangelicals, because the mainlines are largely captured.
You will see the BLM and rainbow flags.
So they have now turned their attention to evangelical institutions.
And it's worth noting that the Episcopal Church, which is how I entered the church, used to be called the Republican Party at Prayer.
That was the joke about the Episcopal Church.
And now it was a very powerful church.
It now virtually doesn't exist.
I mean, they're almost, there are now more Jews in the country than Episcopalians, I believe.
And it has, they've actually gutted the Episcopal Church in many ways by having them, by convincing them to take this on.
All right.
So let's.
I think that's true.
Yeah.
I mean, so let's move on.
So we're talking about to the present.
We're talking about the evangelicals with this 30% of the voting block and usually a bulwark against the most conservative.
Who and how, who has moved in on them and how have they done it?
So starting around 2013, you saw a lot of left-wing foundations funded by billionaires, some whose names you know, like George Soros, some whose names you may not be as familiar with, like Pierre Omidiar, who was the Buddhist founder of eBay, really started to talk within their foundations openly about how do we get around this problem of the Christians because we are not able to advance our policy preferences because they continually stand in our way.
And they realized that they needed to take a less oppositional position against them and instead figure out how do we co-opt religious life, as they put it.
And within some of these memos that I lay out in the book, they talk openly about, well, what we need to do is create fellowship programs.
We need to fund grants for influencers.
And the idea was to create an AstroTurf campaign that would give the impression that your evangelical leaders are taking a position on things like pathways to citizenship, which we might in some cases also call amnesty or to cap and trade policy and things like that.
And they were very effective.
And they also created what you might call front groups.
So when we look at something like a group called the Evangelical Immigration Table, it was created with the name Evangelical in it.
And I always kind of equate it a little bit to that Steve Bushimi meme of how do you do fellow kids?
It's a little like that because they will always be sure to put evangelical in the title.
And so you see a lot of organizations that have evangelical first.
And so what they do is they create the front group.
It is a part of the National Immigration Forum.
So there's a left-wing umbrella group that creates the front group.
Legally, there's no separation between these entities.
And it's taking left-wing funding from people who are not Christians, who are not interested in advancing the kingdom or the doctrine of the church.
And yet its purpose is to go out and advance policy.
And I really want to stress that because sometimes people will hear something like evangelical immigration table, and they rightly think, well, as Christians, we want to spread the gospel to immigrants, regardless of how they came to be here, or we want to see to their material needs.
Jesus told us to do that.
But that's not what these organizations are.
They are explicitly designed to affect policy.
And they are, that is this explicit work that they're doing.
They're lobbying lawmakers, conservative lawmakers in particular, to tell them you need to back these progressive policies because your evangelical constituents, who are your most important constituents, want this.
Wow.
So if I'm a pastor, I'm running a church.
I'm taking care of people living, dying, getting married.
I'm trying to preach the gospel.
I'm reading about that you shouldn't kill people, that God doesn't really like it when you sacrifice your children and stuff like that.
And what do I experience?
How do I experience this?
George Soros thinks we got to get this guy off this marriage and non-abortion tack.
What do I experience as a pastor then?
Well, one thing you might experience is new terminology coming into your church.
And maybe if you're not particularly savvy or paying attention, because as you said, you're a busy guy.
Someone comes in and says, I want to bring curriculum on creation care into your church.
That sounds good.
But in fact, what it is, is a cover for those kind of climate change initiatives.
So the other thing they will do is there's a friendship network.
Your friends are all signing on to a general statement of principles.
And it could be something that you very well agree with.
If we're continuing with our climate change example, it might say something like, we want to be good stewards of the earth.
And you think, I do want to be a good steward of the earth.
So you sign on and that letter is then used to make claims for specific policy like limiting fossil fuels or restricting fracking.
And at that point, it's published in the Washington Post and your name is affixed to it.
And it's claiming that, hey, look, all of these evangelical leaders, all of these well-respected pastors are taking this position.
And you may very well have not meant to take that position.
All you meant to do was say, I agree with taking care of the earth.
Wow.
Okay.
So then there are all these outlets that used to be fairly conservative for Christians, you know, Christianity Today and various magazines that Christians read that suddenly went totally woke.
Is that part of this?
Yes, absolutely.
And totally woke is, I think, maybe even downplaying it.
But when you look at, so if you look at an organization like Christianity Today, influentially, it's incredibly valuable because it was established in 1953 by Billy Graham.
It has this incredible institutional respect among Christians, and it shapes how pastors, maybe not the rank and file as much, but it shapes how pastors and ministry leaders will talk about certain issues.
It sets the boundaries for the polite discourse about how we should talk about it.
So it is important to these left-wing actors to capture those institutions.
You will sometimes hear like the edgy young Theobros that you and I have talked about before, they describe it as the left will hollow out your trusted institutions and wear them like a skin suit.
And that's a little bit what has happened at Christianity today.
If you look at their reporting, they now report frequently on political issues like gun control, like climate change, like immigration from a progressive standpoint.
But you don't see them covering, for example, all of the red state bills that are banning doctors and hospitals from providing transgender procedures to children.
They're not writing about that.
They're not writing about the efforts to keep gender indoctrination out of schools, even though that's incredibly important to Christians.
Yeah, this is the thing that's getting me.
We're talking about Megan Bashram's new book, Shepherds for Sale, how evangelical leaders traded the truth for a leftist agenda.
And I will just say that you had a little bit of trouble getting this book actually published because of some of the things that are in it.
You're now coming under attack from some people we would have once considered friends of your work.
So I'm just fascinated by this idea.
I mean, like, let's take the sexual idea.
You know, evangelicals have been reliably in favor of heterosexuality.
The marriage, marriage is a lifelong commitment between a man and a woman.
And yet suddenly you go into a church and there's a rainbow flag and you think like, I'm sorry, you know, like you have to show me in the gospels where you got to, listen, you know, as you know, I have nothing to say about people's personal lives, live the way you're going to live.
But if you're a church, you're basically supposed to represent the gospels and the gospels say certain things.
How do you get to that place?
How does that happen?
Well, one, I do trace a lot of money because it is in many cases orchestrated on purpose.
Another foundation, the Arcus Foundation, is the largest LGBTQ grant maker in the country.
It poured millions of dollars into transforming the doctrine of conservative denominations on marriage, gender, and sexuality.
And for example, it poured a lot of money into the United Methodist Church, and we just saw a schism in that church over gay ordination and marriage.
So you can say that his money has been pretty well spent at the Arcus Foundation.
But of course, there's also an organic element of this too.
And I think there's part of it is cultural appeasement in the sense that if you moderate your language on those issues, you are much more likely to be an elevated evangelical leader.
You're much more likely to be welcome in the New York Times, to receive fellowships by elite think tanks like Trinity Forum or the Aspen Institute or groups like that.
Whereas if you maintain a very clear line on gender and sexuality, you're less likely to be welcomed.
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And so, as I said, you start to hear some of these new terms.
It may not even be that a pastor or ministry leader is saying, well, I've shifted my position.
They won't say that, but they'll start to say things like, well, we need to show pronoun hospitality.
So now we need to use trans, that is a literal term.
So like creation care, you also get pronoun hospitality.
One of the most influential megachurch pastors in the country, J.D. Greer, who was for several years the president of the largest Protestant denomination, the Southern Baptist Convention, was pushing that idea that this is how Christians show that they are loving by adopting that ideology, at least in rhetoric, if not in conviction.
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Well, this is one of the things you talk about in the book is the use of the idea of love your neighbor as kind of a coverall for accepting everything.
How does that work?
It was exhausting documenting all the different ways that love your neighbor was used.
So really any piece of debatable policy and things that biblically are not debatable.
Love Your Neighbor, Debated00:15:30
You brought up marriage, you brought up the sanctity of life.
Those things are not debatable.
And yet all of these issues have been thrown into this basket of love your neighbor.
And the way to love your neighbor is to take the progressive position.
So you would see ministries say during COVID, love your neighbor, get the shot.
And that was a literal slogan.
That was a statement that was put out by, incidentally, the National Institutes of Health Director, Anthony Fauci's boss, Frances Collins, that a lot of evangelical ministers and ministry leaders signed on to.
And the idea was that there's only one way to love your neighbor when it was a debatable issue.
If you were a young woman of childbearing age and you were not sure how this vaccine was going to affect you, it might have been very loving to say, hey, maybe we should have some vaccine exemptions for people who aren't sure how they feel about this.
And so really, it's a spiritual manipulation that insists there's only one way to love your neighbor in any of these scenarios.
And I can tell you, it became so abused that you saw Governor Gavin Newsom of California picking up this terminology and he put it on billboards to promote abortion.
When Texas passed its abortion law, Gavin Newsom put up billboards that said, love your neighbor.
And it was an indication that come to California to get abortions.
We love our neighbors by letting them kill their babies and murder the smallest neighbors, but we don't think about them.
You saw Alyssa Farah of The View use that terminology to say that Christians should not protest Target and it's queer merchandise for children.
She said, you got to love your neighbor.
So it's really just a way to spiritually manipulate Christians into thinking anything that the left finds mean or unpleasant is not loving.
You know, I have to say, who's the fellow who wrote the purpose-driven life?
Rick Warren.
Rick Warren.
Now, he was a huge conservative pastor with a mega church.
He even got Barack Obama to say that marriage was between a man and a woman.
Obama was lying that that's what he thought, but he did say it to Rick Warren.
What happened to him?
You know, for one thing, Rick Warren, when you reached that level of success, he became very sought after by groups like the World Economic Forum and the Council for Foreign Relations.
So they brought him out to speak to them and to discuss how they might partner the World Economic Forum with evangelical churches to enact certain policies that the World Economic Forum prefers.
And so Rick Warren was saying, hey, we have all of these churches all over the world.
We could be beneficial to you.
And so it becomes a partnership.
And all I can think is that heads are turned.
And, you know, there, but for the grace of God, when I look at someone who has been sought after by that level of elite and powerful circles, I don't know.
I could see how I too might suddenly find myself moderating my positions.
But my job as the reporter is to say, yeah, here is what happened with Rick Warren, not only promoting things from the World Economic Forum, but as we saw with COVID, insisting that the Christian thing to do is to shut down your churches, which is diametrically opposed to versus like those that tell us that we are not to give up gathering.
And that's a command in scripture.
So it certainly should have been a debate.
But again and again, you see Rick Warren taking the position of the federal government and the other most powerful actors in our culture.
Once again, we're talking to Megan Basham about her new book, Shepherds for Sale, how evangelical leaders traded the truth for a leftist agenda, incredibly well researched, well written, as everything Megan does is.
This is the question that's been bothering me as I've been reading the book.
What is it the communists did it to Christianity?
Now the woke left is doing it.
The Soros crowd is doing it to Christianity.
What is it about Christianity that makes it so easy to gull these people?
I mean, you know, when I was living in LA, I couldn't find a church to go to.
And I remember saying to my wife, why can't I find anybody to preach the gospel?
It's written down.
I mean, it's the book.
It's written down.
You can preach the gospel just by reading it word for word.
What is it about these guys that makes it so easy to gull them into thinking that they're still doing that when they're not?
Well, you know, one, I have to go to the spiritual plane and say we don't battle against flesh and blood, and you're not going to be attacked if spiritually, if you are not possessors of the truth.
So as a Christian, I believe it is the only way.
So it is only going, it is always going to be attacked by satanic forces, and that's inevitable.
And then another part of what I think happens is that we misunderstand kindness for capitulation.
And we see that again and again in these pastors, that kindness means we must not confront error when we see it.
We must not confront evil in the culture when we see it.
And, you know, in my book, I talk about it a little bit.
As a Southern Baptist, there's a joke about the 11th commandment.
And the 11th commandment is, you know, thou shalt not criticize other church leaders publicly, which is diametrically opposed to what we see Paul doing in the Gospels when he directly opposes Peter to his face.
But that sort of thing can really become dominant in a culture that prizes and correctly prizes being loving, but misunderstands what loving means.
Is there, I mean, some Catholics, I mean, this is happening in the Catholic Church too.
So it's not really.
Yes.
So it's not really fair to say this, but some Catholics will say, well, you don't have a Pope.
You don't have a central authority dispersing what the gospel is.
Now, by the way, I should say here that I don't believe that, you know, right-wingers or left-wingers have a monopoly on gospel behavior.
I mean, I think that there are many things that can be debated politically.
And I don't know why God loves Democrats, but he seems to love them as well as Republicans.
You know, I think that it's not that I believe that there are political points of view that are necessarily God-blessed and others that aren't.
But there's certainly, as you say, abortion, it just seems to me to be very hard to get from the gospel of life to killing a defenseless child.
I don't know.
Maybe it's just me, but I just don't see how you get there.
So again, I guess I want to ask, like, is there no vaccine, as it were, against these people?
I mean, how is it that a Francis Collins who was promoted?
I mean, I fell for that for a while.
He was, gee, there's a guy who actually believes in Jesus looking at, you know, genetics.
That's a good thing.
But he really was a kind of empty shell.
And how do we prevent that?
Well, I mean, I think part of it is Ephesians 5, 11.
We expose deeds of darkness, and I see that as my particular mission.
So when we see these things going on, we can't ignore them.
That's a big part of it.
And it's a big part of what this book is about is showing how it happens.
So you recognize the red flags and the signs when this stuff is coming into your church.
And then I think the other part of that is not just recognizing it, but we have actually scripts laid out in scripture for how you address this stuff.
We just don't follow them.
So when you see error and heresy popping up, and I like that you said that, look, we don't all have to agree on gun control or climate change.
And I take pains in my book to say we don't have to agree with whatever particular policy it is.
And as Christians, we can debate those issues.
The problem is pretending that there is only one position scripture could take on debatable issues.
So, you know, it's really hard to say, what does God think I should do in terms of firearm ownership?
That should absolutely be something that we as Christians can debate.
And that debate is being circumvented by saying from the pulpit, no, no, no, this is what God expects of you on this debatable issue, which we might also call legalism.
And so I think the other part of that is that we have this script in scripture to confront it, to say, we are not legalistic.
And that's exactly what you saw Paul doing with Peter, saying whether to eat this or not eat this and who you sit with and who you don't sit with.
These are debatable issues.
And you are treating these other Christians like they are not true believers because they have a different background.
They are Gentiles instead of Jews.
And we're all one in Christ Jesus.
And that's the kind of thing I think we are seeing is this very legalistic burden heaping by creating rules that are man-made rules saying you have to agree with this to follow the gospel faithfully.
And I do want to be clear that you have seen some of these leaders who are coming into conservative seminaries saying that in order to be faithful to the gospel, you have to back certain climate change policies.
That's insane.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, this thing about infiltration kind of gets me.
It just has a sort of espionage aspect to it.
And I've heard stories, for instance, of gay people coming into churches and saying, we just want to be accepted, which I think a lot of people have sympathy with, and then taking over the church and basically reversing its preachments about some kinds of relationships.
I guess what I want to know is how powerful has this been on the rank and file?
You're talking about the corruption of people, pastors, magazines, media, the open conversation.
How much is this working on the rank and file?
Yeah, well, you mentioned the Catholics a minute ago, and they're about a 50-50 split on issues like life and sexuality and gender and marriage now.
So I think you can say it's been the same, the same play that has been run in the Catholic Church has been very effective, but it's been going on longer there.
And then you look at the evangelical church and it too is slipping.
Now, I think for a number of reasons, it's held stronger for longer.
But I do see signs of teetering.
Yes.
And when you look at it, it is very similar to the main lines in that you have a rank and file that is much more conservative than the leadership.
I mean, it blows people's minds when you point out, did you know that 50% of mainline Protestants in the pews voted for Donald Trump?
50%.
I mean, that's shocking because you think of how liberal they are.
Everyone sees the rainbow flags, the BLM flags.
And then you go, well, actually, 50% of them voted for Donald Trump.
It's their leadership that is extremely liberal.
And so you are seeing that.
And when I look at the deconstruction movement that's happening among a lot of young evangelicals, if you're not familiar with that term, it kind of means dismantling your faith and taking away everything you thought was true about it to either leave the faith and become an ex-evangelical or to create some sort of new hybrid wokeness with Christianity that says Jesus was a social justice warrior.
I think that that is where we're seeing it most and kind of that Gen Z that is very much taken up with this trend of deconstruction.
Yeah, I mean, well, the deconstruction has been working its way into the system as a kind of a literary theory, an artistic theory since I was a kid, basically.
And it now has become almost a political idea as well.
And it's very strange.
It's a very strange idea because it's the idea that there's no such thing as truth.
And so you can take anything apart and reassemble it any way you want, which would seem to be a problem if you believe in the gospel.
I mean, it's just, you know, just kind of a difficult.
Now, one of the things I've noticed is, you know, you and I have spoken on my show many times and you're an absolutely lovely, charming person.
People are really ticked off at you and they're ticked off at you from within the church.
I mean, I would think, seriously, I would think that the first thing people would say is, is this true?
And is it valid?
But I've watched David French.
I mean, when I met David French, I said to him, I said to him once, it bothers me that people ban gay people from their churches, but they have workshops on divorce, whereas Jesus never mentions homosexual sexuality himself, but he does talk about divorce quite strongly.
And David said, oh, no, we ban people who get divorced from my church as well.
And I thought, well, at least that's, you know, that's being having integrity.
Now he seems like really a left-wing guy.
I mean, he does not seem to have any of that left.
Is there anyone who is actually listening to you from within the church, from within the churches, and hearing this as a wake-up call?
Yeah.
Well, one, I can tell you that absolutely, because I get a lot of behind the scenes Atta Girls, but as you might expect, not a lot of people are doing it publicly right now.
Some are, Pastor John MacArthur.
I'm so grateful for him to step up and say, this is an important book.
Rosaria Butterfield, who, you know, such a blessing to me because she, if you're not familiar with her, she's a best-selling author who was a queer theory feminist professor at Syracuse, tenured and became a Christian, left that life, married a pastor, just a really strong Christian, and had built up incredible credibility and institutional respect.
And she burned it all to back me and endorse my book.
So I am getting some, but on the pushback, that's to be expected.
If you have been changing money in the temple for a really long time, you don't really like it when someone comes along and exposes that.
So I'm not really surprised to get that.
You brought up David French.
I have obviously been pretty critical of his evolution because I believe it is away from doctrinal soundness.
You know, for example, he has shifted positions on marriage as a civic question.
He would say like religiously, I still believe marriage is between one man and one woman, but I no longer believe it should be that way as a matter of law.
So he has certainly shifted to some degree.
And when I look at his trajectory, it's hard to not notice how much mainstream secular respect has come, the strange new respect phenomenon has come along with his evolution.
And so you see that sort of thing a lot with organizations that were once known for being doctrinally sound, like the Trinity Forum, which Oz Guinness, beloved theologian, founded back in the 90s.
You know, now it hosts seminars with Kristen Dumae, who is a progressive feminist Christian who calls Billy Graham a white patriarchalist.
I mean, Billy Graham.
It hosts seminars with the editor-in-chief of Sojourners, which is a religious left magazine that promotes transgenderism among children.
So things that you look at that evolution and you can't be surprised that when someone is pointing out you have departed from your first love, that that makes some people angry.
Cultural Reporter Discusses Departure00:01:01
Yeah.
Yeah.
And by the way, I should say about David French that I know that during one of the elections, the Trump supporters, not Trump, but Trump supporters, were harassing him and his children, some of whom were black.
I've heard that.
And yes, and I think that would put a bug up my nose too.
You know, that certainly could affect you.
Megan, really good job.
The book is Shepherds for Sale, How Evangelical Leaders Traded the Truth for a Leftist Agenda.
Megan Basham, the cultural reporter for the Daily Wire.
Always great to see you and talk to you.
I wish you the best of luck with this book.
It's really well done.
Thank you so much, Andrew.
I appreciate it.
All right, Megan Basham, Shepherds for Sale, How Evangelical Leaders Traded the Truth for a Leftist Agenda.
Like I said, really, as always with Megan, really well researched, well written, and bringing her under fire for telling the simple truth, go on Amazon.
And I think you can order it.
You might have to pre-order it.
I'm not quite sure, but get it.
That's the important thing.
And I will be back on Friday with the Andrew Clavin Show.