Andrew Clavin’s Another Kingdom emerged after his failed follow-ups to The Great Good Thing, sparked by a sudden, almost divine creative breakthrough blending crime and fantasy. Rejected by Hollywood for its "toxic masculinity" themes—despite 82% of Americans disliking political correctness—it explores gender roles, moral ambiguity, and spiritual struggles like sin and redemption. The show’s shift from supernatural trials to action-driven quests in Season 2 reflects its trilogy structure, with Clavin defending traditional roles as vital for relationships while teasing a third season. Subscribers unlock full visual content, including spoilers, as the project balances artistic integrity with mainstream resistance. [Automatically generated summary]
Hey everybody, we're taking a little break here from the story.
I've invited the author, Andrew Clavin, to come into my smoky house here.
And what we're doing today is reminding you, first of all, you've got to go to iTunes.
You've got to subscribe.
You've got to give it five stars.
This helps counterbalance all of the Hollywood social media forces trying to shut down stories like this.
And also, you've got to subscribe.
You've got to go to dailywire.com.
If you go to dailywire.com, you can get the show and you get to see it on Mondays.
If you don't subscribe, you got to wait until Friday.
And then you don't get to watch the whole thing.
You don't get to see all the visual elements.
You can listen to it.
That's fine.
Treat yourself.
Come on, treat yourself.
You're worth it.
You deserve it.
We're here.
We're going to be talking about the show, season one, season two, and where the story is going with the one and only Andrew Clavin.
Here I am.
I have two questions.
Let's start.
Where did the idea for the whole thing come from?
Well, that is actually a weirdly interesting story that I have only found out now.
I only see it looking back on what happened because it was all very organic when it happened.
But when I look back on it, I realize there was actually something went on.
You know, I wrote this memoir about my conversion to Christianity, which was the great good thing.
And in it, I was, you can see me praying to God, oh Lord, if I'm going to become a Christian, don't make me become a Christian novelist.
Because who, you know, what is worse than those novels where everybody finds Jesus and everything's great, you know, and the guy gets hit by a car, but it's okay because he's going to heaven.
He's going to heaven.
It's all for the best.
They become movies.
They make zillions of dollars.
This doesn't sound so bad.
But they're terrible.
And I just, I didn't want to become.
So, you know, when you're writing a novel, you're actually ahead of yourself.
You're actually expressing things from yourself that you don't know anything about.
You haven't really worked them out.
It's not like you have these philosophical thoughts and then you put them into a novelistic setting.
At least that's not the way I work.
When I sat down and wrote what I think in The Great Good Thing, it put an end to certain things, themes that had been the themes that powered my work up to that point.
I wrote these thrillers that were always about, like, what is reality?
How do you know?
How do you know something's true?
How do you know something is moral?
How do you know that there actually is a reality out there?
That's what my thrillers were about.
And at some point, I thought, you know, you just know, you know, you know.
I mean, almost the first line in True Crime is like, you actually do know the difference between dreams and reality.
And that led to, that was part of my progress to Christianity and becoming a religious person.
And so now I've got this problem where the themes and the puzzles that I was trying to work out in my youth are basically solved.
They're basically solved.
I'm happy.
I've found God.
I feel at peace.
What do I write about?
I don't want to sit there and write these Christian novels where everything's happy, but what do I do?
I wrote in the next three years after I wrote The Great Good Thing, I wrote two novels that I threw away because they were just not working.
Can I have them?
Because I haven't written any novels.
But you just write a blank novel.
It's like so much easier.
So you just threw them away.
Yeah, you know, I would have my wife read them and she would say, this isn't working.
And one of them I, when one of them, I was stuck on.
I thought, I can fix this.
I know I can fix it.
And one day I'm sitting there and I thought, no, I can't.
I cannot fix this thing.
And I'm just, I'm coming to the realization that I got to throw this thing away.
And I'm sitting there and another kingdom came to me like this.
Boom.
It was like Wiley Coyote having a safe dropped on his head.
Bang.
And I don't trust that because that's not the way I get inspiration.
The way I get inspiration is it comes, then I forget about it, and then it comes back, and it kind of drags me into it.
So this was just there.
I thought, that can't be right.
That cannot be right.
So when I'm ready to write something, I go and sit down and then I start to write the outline, you know, to see if it's there.
I sat down.
The whole thing was there.
I mean, the whole thing, the whole story.
And I thought, I've never had that experience before.
It was like a gift from God, you know.
So every step of the way, I was thinking somewhere along the line, I'm going to turn a corner and this story's not going to work because it's just too organic.
But in fact, somehow, subconsciously, I had solved the problem of what I wanted to talk about next, what I wanted the next part of my career to be.
And it's still ahead of me.
I'm still not sure what it is, but I know it has worked itself out in this story.
And it's a story that, you know, I used to be a crime writer, just basic on the street, solve the crime years of, you know, they were clever suspense stories, but I'd never written fantasy like this before.
And somehow having a dual story that is at once a crime and suspense story, very realistic, but also a fantasy story, has somehow solved the problem of how I'm going to move on.
Acting in Imaginary Circumstances00:06:31
Wow, that's really good.
That's really bizarre.
That's really bizarre.
And, you know, living in Los Angeles, I can fully attest, LA is in no way less weird than Galeana.
That is wrong.
I mean, you know, as an actor, you've been around all these places, the same places I've been around as a writer.
It's pretty strange.
It's really, I think people don't fully appreciate it.
It is really, and the Arozgon-ness of it all really does pervade the town and the whole culture.
You know, there was that poll that came out a while ago that the vast majority of Americans hate political correctness.
Yes.
82%.
82%.
This story is not a conservative story.
It's not a Christian novel.
It's certainly not politically correct.
No.
You have killers who have gender issues.
You've got two, don't know.
It does explore gender roles.
And I think that's what rings so true in Galeana and in Los Angeles.
How does that affect the reception, the popular reception and the reception among the Hollywood types?
Well, the popular reception has been great.
I mean, you know, yeah, you and I started this like in a barn.
I was just kind of saying, no, let's do this.
And now it's been built into this beautiful, you know, visual treat that they've made here.
I know, it's amazing.
But we just started thinking this would be fun to do.
And in Hollywood, so the response from the audience has been terrific.
They really seem to like the story, which is great.
In Hollywood, I am like, I've pitched it a number of times, mostly to TV.
I can't think of, I don't think I've done it to film yet.
And yeah, I think that you're mostly pitching to women in TV.
You are pitching to women who have worked very hard to get where they are and do not want to hear about issues of manhood and femininity.
You're pitching in this kind of Me Too moment where already they hate you.
Plus, plus, Hollywood has become very, very racist in the sense that they'll say, you know, now, don't send me a white man.
Don't send me a white person.
They really will say that.
I've seen the breakdowns.
I'm sure.
I'm sure.
So it has been, I have been rebuffed in Hollywood repeatedly.
And I think I myself am toxic from expressing myself.
Oh, I've been telling you that for years.
Well, yeah.
That's just my toxic masculinity.
But I think, but yeah, I mean, you know this.
You are an outspoken conservative.
I'm an outspoken conservative.
We're walking into a game where you really only get two strikes with two strikes against us.
Right, that's true.
You know, you came out, though, much later.
You know, you came out of the closet as a conservative much later.
So it's interesting, too, with this because we started it in a barn, you know, and you wrote it, and then we just did it.
And it became popular, and we got to do a season two with all these crazy lights, and it's a lot of fun.
You'd written a zillion bestsellers, big movies, all of this.
And then people start telling you what to say.
They tell you you can't say this.
They tell you you yourself can't do anything.
So now you're making your own stuff, basically.
Well, yeah, the world has become so great for this.
It's funny.
I've been preaching this to conservatives.
Go into the alternative media.
Don't depend on the liberals who are running this.
Don't kowtow to them.
And suddenly I'm the guy doing it, you know.
So it's kind of funny.
Like I was talking to myself, you know.
But I mean, one of the things that I've been interested in, because I hate to say this to you, but you are a really terrific actor.
No, no, you are.
I mean, the first thing I saw you in was like Chekhov.
You actually play good stuff.
You know what you're doing.
And one of the things about Another Kingdom is it's about a guy's journey.
And season two is different because the character is different, because he changes.
He goes through things.
He's a very different guy when that second story opens than he was when the first story opens.
What I want to know is how do you gauge?
Like, I know what I do to gauge those changes and to make those changes, but how do you make those changes happen?
As my wonderful acting teacher from New York, he's still teaching, I think he's 96 now, said, Wynne Handman, he said, actors have to be gullible fools.
Well, you're perfect for it.
Yeah, and the character has to be a nearly 30-something Hollywood schlub.
I don't know.
I just don't know how you cast these things.
But it's because the circumstances are so rich that they poke buttons.
They're very evocative.
The circumstance is in the script.
And the guy, when you read it on paper, he's a different guy than he was at the beginning.
He's a little less timid, a little less whatever.
But there's a huge difference between acting and this.
And that's something that I learned only doing it.
Acting and reading, you mean?
Acting and reading.
Acting and whatever this thing is, they are very different things.
And actually, acting can kind of get in the way of what this is.
Because, you know, when you're acting, you want to, to use all of the language that they use, you want to live truthfully in imaginary circumstances.
And you want to be filled up and let it sort of just seep out of you.
And you want subtlety.
In this, all you have is the voice.
I know we have these beautiful visual elements here, but all you have is your voice.
So if you're too subtle, you miss it.
You're driving in your car, you're listening to the story.
You miss it.
You can't do that.
Absolutely.
And the other thing that I love about it is this is so rich in the imagination.
The whole story comes from the imagination.
It's living truthfully in imaginary circumstances.
And there's this great line from Stella Adler, one of the great founders of American acting.
And she says, these actors today are so boring.
There's nothing organic about boring the audience to death.
I don't care if you got dumped on prom night, unless you're Danish royalty, that will not help you play the Prince of Denmark.
That will not help you play Hamlet.
And I love, because the images are so rich and the characters are so rich here too, that you can only bring yourself to a project, yourself and your imagination.
But these characters are so rich, the characters are drawn out for you.
Well, you know, it is funny because the first time I wrote a movie, I remember I wrote it.
I was a novelist, so I wrote it as a novelist.
I did character outlines, long character outlines.
I outlined every plot.
I knew who the people were.
And it ended up starring Michael Caine in the first day of rushes.
I saw him come in and I think, the character's Michael Kaine.
Why did I do all that work?
So in a way, in a way, it is true that I'm doing, I as a novelist, I'm doing a lot of the work that you would do as an actor.
And now you have to bring something fresh to this thing, this kind of narrator's voice, which is really different.
Essential Character Work00:15:49
Yeah, that's right.
I mean, it's why screenplays have many fewer words, many fewer words providing all of that.
And some people have pointed out similarities between speaking of imaginary circumstances and reality, similarities between images in your world, characters in this world, and what we see around us in politics, around the country, around the world.
Are those similarities intentional?
How much of our day-to-day reality is creeping into another kingdom?
Well, you know, it's funny.
I'm not a political writer per se.
I mean, I'm not writing about policies or this issue or that issue.
But I do think we're in a moment in this country where we are discussing essential things.
And that's what fiction is about.
Fiction is about essential things.
It's about things that will be true today and things that will be true tomorrow in another way.
You know, who knows what they'll be arguing about 10 years down the line.
But you want people to be able to pick up a novel 10 years down the line and recognize the issues.
We are in a moment in this country where we are discussing essential things.
Can we have a government big enough to destroy evil and unfairness?
Is there something, does that cost something?
Is it still, are we still living in a world that can be, that can service individual freedom?
I mean, this is what we've been hearing from the progressives since Wilson, that no, no, the world needs experts now.
It's too complicated.
It's too complicated for individual people.
And these things are essential questions.
They have been asked really since the Bible times.
Like when the Jews went to the prophet and said, we want a king.
And he said, you know, you can't have a king.
God's your king.
You know, you're supposed to.
Those are essential questions.
And so in a way, those questions are underneath another kingdom.
It's not a thing where I'm saying, ooh, look, there are liberals, they're bad, and there are conservatives, they're good.
Because first of all, I don't actually believe that.
All people are flawed.
All people are miserable.
But I do believe that these essential issues that come out that are being argued in terms of momentary policy things are in play in our time in a way they haven't been for, say, the 50 years beforehand.
And so they do inform what the characters are.
You know, this guy is against, is fighting a villain who has a plan, the villain, and he has had a plan for a long time.
And this plan does reflect these issues, and it does reflect essential things.
And one of the things that I really like about Austin Lively as a person is that even though he is weak in some ways and overly ambitious in some ways and he has a corrupt heart like we all do, he immediately knows, he immediately knows when essential human rights have been violated.
He immediately flips on that, you know.
And so I think those issues are in play in our world.
When you pick up the newspaper, you're reading about them.
And all I've done is strip away the incidentals.
Brett Kavanaugh doesn't come on or whatever.
Not until season three.
Yeah, Donald Trump puts stars in season three.
But those issues are not in play.
But the elements underneath those issues are definitely in play because they're essential.
And you know, speaking of those essentials, I love, I always look in a character for these inexplicable, not quite articulated moments that I just know to be true in my own life and my friends' lives.
And one of these is that Austin Lively will see wizards and ogres and dragons and monsters.
He will see them.
He will have the scars on his body.
And five seconds later, he'll say, or I have a brain tumor.
Because we all do that.
We all do it.
I do it all the time.
Yep, it's absolutely true because we deal with these spiritual things and then you get in an argument with somebody over money and suddenly you forget everything that you know in your spiritual life.
You know, you even, because questions of sin, questions of redemption, they all come up in this.
And there will be moments, you know, just in our own lives, where you'll think, I have nearly seen the face of God in this numinous moment.
I've seen it.
Ooh, look at that sin.
Ooh.
Ooh, that'll be fun.
It's so true.
And you actually discount it.
It is funny, like, you know, the people, the people who would say, I mean, we see this in politics when people go out and they defend the rights of women, and then you find out they're chasing them around by the desk.
I think people do have this divided self.
They do have a divided self where they will do things that would make them ashamed of someone else.
Right.
You know, where they say, oh, he's doing that.
You go, that's disgusting.
And then they go back and do the same thing.
And I think that that is a weird, it is weird how here the flesh is.
It is weird how real and there it all is, the world is.
Whereas spiritual stuff is kind of floating out there and maybe you can get away with kind of ignoring it.
That's right.
Yeah, it is.
I mean, that question of especially for the character, especially for Austin Lively, the will, the questions of the will, I want to do this.
Well, my will's kind of divided against myself.
I go.
Well, you know, this is something that people don't understand.
And you have to address this as an actor, because I think it's actually worse for actors than people who do the stuff that we do, who care about the stuff that we do, are desperate to do it.
They're desperate to do it in some form, you know.
I mean, it may be that, you know, all right, you're not acting in movies, but you do get to perform.
You get to do your podcast, and you get to be a present.
But they don't understand.
I mean, you went to Yale.
They're going to rescind my default.
I hope so, just to keep their integrity.
But you, you know, a person who gets into Yale, as I well know, because I sent a kid to Yale, has to be really bright.
You could do other things.
You could be, you could have said, you know, I'm going to be a lawyer and had a job like God, a Yale lawyer, you know.
But you did this, partly because you're an idiot.
Yeah, idiocy and masochism would be the two.
Those are the two driving forces.
But people don't understand the hunger.
It's so true.
It's why I love actors.
It's why when I watch movies, I love actors.
Go see plays, I love actors, and I know a zillion actors, because it's awful.
And you've talked about this on your show.
You're gambling your life.
It is your whole life that you're risking for nothing.
You'll almost certainly get obscurity, poverty, ruined relationships.
And they're all doing it.
Actors do it, writers do it.
And so I give actors a lot of credit, especially in movies because editing and directors and editors make movies and actors make plays.
Yeah, no, that's true.
That's absolutely true, sure.
Yeah, and you're gambling your life.
And it's really hard out here because I've done so many projects, plays, movies, where I so disagreed with the premise of it, with the message of it, with what the characters are doing.
But you just take the work.
Right, you want the work and you want to play that character.
Yeah.
Because the character could be great.
It's cool.
That's right.
That's right.
Yeah.
But writers don't have to deal with that unless they want to sell their work.
Well, there always is that.
There always is that.
But one of the things about acting that has always struck me is that you're a classically trained actor.
You're a genuinely trained actor.
You can play Hamlet and get 15 people to show up.
I have.
In New York.
But if you hold a gun and shout, let the girl go, you're probably in a big movie.
I always joke about that.
I joked about that with Nick Searcy, and he said, I did that.
He said, let the girl go.
And it is strange that success in acting, more so, I think, than in writing, though it can be true in writing too.
Success in acting actually leads you away from the reason you got into it.
That's so true.
Right when I came out here, I booked two things.
I was doing a play, I think it was a Shaw play, Arms and the Man, and I was doing, and I booked some commercial for a car company.
And the play paid me like peanuts.
It paid me nothing, so little.
And then I did, and it was all the time, lots of performances.
And then the commercial paid my rent for years.
For years, I'm only getting residuals from that.
When I heard what people get paid for a commercial, because my father did commercials, he told me, I thought, I went into the wrong way.
It's the wrong line of work.
Yeah, it is.
But you're absolutely right.
I mean, what would you rather do?
Do you want to be in a commercial and look up and say, buy the car?
Or do you want to do another kingdom, which doesn't, frankly, doesn't pay as well as the car commercials.
But it's so, I mean, when I found out that we were doing a second season, one, because it was popular enough, and two, because you wrote it.
I was so excited.
Not to put you on the spot here.
I know their cameras on.
Is there going to be a third season?
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Well, first of all, now, because of what we did, because of our first season, I've sold a trilogy to a publishing house, and they're going to bring out the first book in March, right?
So that so now there is a third season.
So we just hope that all the people show up for this because we want the third season to take this to even another level.
I mean, all these guys, you know, we tease them all the time, but this thing was put together by a Daily Wire team of artists and producers and directors who really have done this spectacular job.
I'll never say this to their face if they ever watch this.
They better not watch that.
I'll tell them it's dubbed.
But no, they really have.
And if we can get the audience that we hope will be sweeping in to see it, then we're going to move this up to the next level because there is a third story.
It is built.
What's interesting is no one will see it until I reveal it, but it is built into the second story, though what the third story is, and it will resolve itself and have a final season.
I have to tell you that I say this with all due modesty, but I was so happy with the way this second season turned out because second books and trilogies tend to be the kind of low point.
And I don't think Another Kingdom 2 electric boogle.
Exactly.
Well, in movies, it's always because they do the worst thing.
Like in the Matrix, they have this great idea, and in the second one, they say, let's do more slow-motion action.
And you're like, but with this, it really did reveal itself as a new story and a fresh story and a complete story.
And told in a different way.
And told.
And there's a different style to it.
That's right.
What I want to know, though, is: are you reading ahead?
Because we've left you now in a cliffhanger.
Do you know what happens?
I actually try not to.
I try to read the week of.
I try to, or the week we're going to shoot it, I try to read it.
But I don't want to get too far ahead because I don't want to start making choices that haven't happened yet.
Right, right, right.
So I actually don't really know what's, I think the only person in this entire room who knows what's going to be happening next is you.
Is me, because I've still got the last episode in my computer.
I don't think I've handed that in yet.
So that's, yeah.
So what happens?
Never mind.
What happens?
You know, last year when we took a break for this, I never got so much hate mail in my life.
And I got a lot of hate mail.
I never got so much of just, how dare you?
I was waiting for that.
You left us at this cliffhanger.
What are you doing?
Well, yeah, but we have to break sometimes.
Got to break sometimes.
It's a union job.
We got to take a break at some point.
I don't know.
I've never had, I've never told a story like this where the character changes so much.
I mean, all my stories to me have always been about the one thing that could happen to you, to this character, that is transformative.
So I always say, like, if you put the indecisive Hamlet in Othello and he was asked to make a decision on the basis of a handkerchief, he'd be like, the play would go on forever.
Whereas if you put Othello in Hamlet and you said, revenge your father began a two-minute play.
So you want to get these right.
But I've never written a story in which a character changes so much.
This is the biggest journey any character I've ever written has gone on.
He is already a very different person than he was in the opening scene of the first season.
And he is a different person now than he was when the second season opened.
And so this is a really, really transformative story.
And I've been interested to watch you do.
And I have never, I love actors.
I never know how they do what they do.
But I've been interested to watch you sort of gauge this kind of change.
You know how?
I'll tell you the secret is that the words are in the book.
When I'm sitting there, the words are right there.
I get to just read the words.
Yeah, but still, you have to deliver it though.
You actually do deliver the character.
It is an amazing, and it is weird because it is a first-person narration.
So you have to deliver that character.
And this first-person narration is harder charging this season.
It is really moving.
This is a big action.
It's a big action story.
Why?
And can you give us any preview on how that will change, what that will come to?
Well, you know, I think this has to do with the character's change.
So in the first season, he's kind of like this wimpy little nobody who's on the way out.
He's kind of on the way down.
Making excuses, he doesn't want to make decisions.
Right.
And he gets put into this situation, this. essentially supernatural situation where he is tested like a man.
He is tested in a way men don't get tested in our society anymore.
And he is really forced to throw away all the kind of neurosis, the woody Allen-ness of it all, of modern society.
He's forced to throw all that away and say, you know what?
Some of this stuff about manhood applies.
Some of this stuff you have to do.
You have to turn out and do it.
So when the second season begins, he's a tougher guy than he is.
When he like begins, so what are you going to do?
You can't throw him back into that first situation.
So this story is the story of a quest.
I mean, it is a story.
It is in certain ways a very linear story about something.
He starts out to find somebody, his missing sister, and as whether he's going to do that or not.
So when that happens, you have to put action, you have to have a lot to say, have a lot for him to do, and a lot for him to triumph over because you've got to challenge him at a new level, right?
It's not the same thing as this little guy who any danger that he finds himself in is immensely a problem.
He learns, as he says in the first episode, the very first episode, he says, I learned how to fight, right?
I learned how to fight in another kingdom.
And now, you know, I know that I can do that.
And that's, for a man, that is an important thing.
I mean, it's a thing that's very hard to describe to women that you really do have to know at some level, not that you can win a fight, but that you will stand up.
You can do it.
Yeah, I do want to kind of close on the manliness of it all.
Yeah.
Because the voice changes, the written voice and the performed voice changes from season one to season two.
Right.
Because he's become more of a man.
And he's more confident.
He's maybe more reckless.
I don't know if he's more reckless, but he's more willing to just go and do what he has to do.
And we're at a point where the government is studying the health effects of toxic masculinity.
I mean, we're at a point where they're trying to ban masculinity from society.
Is that a coincidence?
What does it tell?
What does it offer?
I think this is a major issue, not just for men, but for women too, because in order for men to be men, women have to be women.
In order for men to be men, they have to have the respect of women.
They have to have a certain amount of leadership authority in their homes.
You have to have the guts to face the fact that women also have a role to play in the manhood of men, and men have a role to play in the womanliness of women.
And I think one of the things that I find so appallingly boring about superhero stories, and I know you and I agree on this, but everybody else in the world.
The Daily Wire just told me that.
This is where they're going to all tune out.
Yeah, well, there's no real sexuality because all the women are superheroes too.
So they don't need the actual protection and affection and help that women actually do need in real life.
Women's Role in Ennobling Men00:02:13
And every time you say something like that, they'll say, well, Rhonda Rousey is tough.
And you go like, yeah, she is, but she's an exception.
She's an anomaly.
And I think that in real life, in real life, men and women, they take care of one another and they take care of one another in different ways.
And they have to live up to the needs of that role if they want to be in relationship with each other and with the world.
Because the women in the story ennoble the men.
That's in all parts of the story.
And they don't do it through passivity.
They do it by being women.
By saying, you know, in the first season, he has a relationship with this woman who's incredibly courageous, incredibly bold.
But one of the things that makes her courageous is that she's a woman.
You know, she doesn't have the ability to fight that he has.
And I've actually gotten letters from people saying, well, I could fight.
And the answer is, no, you couldn't.
Faced with a man of similar age and fitness, he'll kill you.
So it will not be closed.
Right.
And so because we live in this safe society, because we live in this civilization that has been protected from invaders for 200 years, essentially, Women have forgotten and they can tell themselves these lies.
But in fact, as we learned on September 11th, we learned it's the men who run into the burning building, which always will be.
And I think that I wanted to deal with that honestly, and that's what makes it politically incorrect.
It's not that I'm telling anybody what to be.
I know they're individuals.
But I do want to deal with this issue that we need each other to fulfill our roles.
Men and women need each other to fulfill certain kinds of roles and not to lie about it and not to need to lie about it so that they can be the best things they can be.
That is like a major call to arms.
I want to go out there and be a man.
The story has really told me to do that.
Don't try it at home.
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