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Jan. 24, 2025 - Radio Renaissance - Jared Taylor
01:12:42
Remigration: If Not Now, When?

Jared Taylor interviews Englishman Gavin Boby (also known as Mosquebuster) about how to reestablish white homelands. A broad discussion of contrasting and complimentary points of view.

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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this special edition of Radio Renaissance.
I'm your host, Jared Taylor, with American Renaissance.
And I have a guest from Great Britain.
His name is Gavin Bowlby.
He will introduce himself in some detail, but he is known, among other things, as the Mosque Buster.
But the primary purpose of this conversation is to talk about re-migration.
Welcome, Mr. Bobi, Mr. Mosquebuster.
Could you please explain to me why you are known as the Mosquebuster, first of all?
Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Taylor, for that very nice introduction.
It is great to talk to you, partly because of the respect that I have for you, but the respect that so many other people.
Thank you for having me on your podcast.
Oh, you're most welcome.
Thank you for your kind words.
Mosque busting, that is...
I stop mosques from getting planning, or in America it would be called zoning, permission.
So if there's...
Muslims come forward with a zoning application to site a mosque in your neighbourhood, and you don't want that.
And there are a lot of good reasons why you wouldn't.
I'm the guy you might call.
And I do that pro bono, don't make any money out of it, don't want to, wouldn't be able to anyway, because we're still quite passive, I think, over here in the UK, as you've noticed.
But it's something that I enjoy.
When you stop a mosque going ahead, you feel like James Bond for about 12 hours.
Well, that's very good.
What are the sort of objections that you can successfully raise to sticking a mosque in somebody's neighborhood?
Well, you have to stick to what I call the hypocritical, polite English planning code.
So what you say is, you don't say...
There will be rape gangs near here.
There will be the parking jihad.
Life will be a nightmare for housewives and anyone walking the streets, especially with a dog at past nine o'clock in the evening, is going to get seriously harassed.
Horrible comments.
You can't come forward and say that.
You can't say Islam is a totalitarian religion.
What you have to do is you have to say, it breaks my heart.
The parking situation around here.
Parking is terrible.
It's such a nightmare.
Or look at this lovely building.
The damage it will do to the character.
Or what about the harm to the local business area?
That is something that we need to take care of.
And so you refer to material planning considerations.
And that's the way you win.
Once you get up and you say...
What I used to say very early on was you can't grant planning permission for a mosque because the religion of Islam is...
practicing the religion of Islam is contrary to English law.
Because it is permanently inciting violence.
So you can't grant permission for a mosque any more than you can grant planning permission for a chop shop selling off stolen cars or an underage brothel.
And I would occasionally use language as tough as that.
But I found they quickly cottoned on to that.
And you have to take a step back.
And the question is whether you want to win or whether you want to...
I see.
Well, good for you.
Good for you.
And I suppose you have many backers in the neighbourhood and they feel exactly the same way you do about mosques and Islam, but they approve of your approach because they realise that it's more likely to stop the place rather than comparing it to an underage brothel.
Yes, that's right.
Yeah, you're right.
Well, very good.
Very good.
Can you give me any idea of what your success record is?
How many notches do you have on your gun?
How many mosques have you prevented?
Yeah, it's up on my website, which is gavinbobie.com.
I fought 106. I think I've won 66 of them.
I lose track of normal.
I think it's 66 out of 106. That's not as high as I'd like it to be.
Most people are still not awake about it.
Well, does it help to have community involvement?
Are there public hearings, as there would be in the United States?
Yeah, there can be.
The way to defeat these things...
Is to encourage local people, people in the area, to express their opinion.
And if you can get up a momentum, a critical mass of ordinary white English people saying, we don't want this here, we think it will be bad for the neighbourhood, bad for our local amenity, which means quality of life, then...
What will happen is councillors will take note of that.
In fact, I would say that the councillors are much more racially prejudiced than you or I, in that their initial reaction all the time is to say, these are Muslims, they're always complaining, give them what they want, get them to go away.
Oh, I see.
But they don't fear Muslims so much, they fear the white man.
They fear English people.
The reason they fear English people is because they know when the English guy gets on his hind legs, he means it, and he's more likely to do something about it.
And you see it at these council meetings.
Occasionally, it doesn't always go to a council meeting, so they're seldom the opposite.
It's actually quite boring.
It's quite dull spade work.
It's a grind.
Stamina is how you get through.
But occasionally, you do have a council meeting.
And what you observe is abysmal quality of debate.
You couldn't call it debate or discussion.
What it is, is councillors saying it's wonderful, it's community, it's diversity, isn't this wonderful?
And as the discussion goes around the table again and again, you see them starting to persuade themselves that, in fact, it would be in their interest.
They're going to lose votes and get voted off the gravy train if they allow planning permission for this mosque.
and they hate me for it, but they find often they have to refuse.
And that is meat and drink to me, to watch these worthless, treacherous, nobody councillors doing it as a business, knowing that they don't want to refuse it, they want to grant it, but they have to refuse it, because otherwise they'll be defenestrated from their comfy retirement job at the council.
Wow, wonderful.
Wonderful.
Do you find that any councillors have any backbone on issues like this?
Any of them have any gumption or ideas of their own and realize that this is just a slap in the face and an insult to everything that is British about Britain?
No.
No.
I don't think I've ever had one.
Talk to me that way.
No.
Occasionally I've had the odd extreme case, perhaps an independent.
Occasionally it used to be a UK Independence Party councillor many years ago would say something along the lines of, well, no, we don't really want this mosque here.
We don't really like it.
But overwhelmingly, I would say at least 99% want to express how wonderful it is.
Even if they're going to refuse it, they'll fall over themselves to say, Oh, my goodness.
And so the idea is it's with great regret that we have to explain to you that it'll cause problems with parking.
And so we're going to have to turn our back on this wonderful injection of diversity, without which we would just choke to death on our own homogeneity.
That's generally their attitude.
You sound just like an English district councillor.
I thought I was in a planning meeting there, the way you talked.
That's exactly how they speak.
You should be a councillor over here.
Oh, heavens, heavens.
I don't think I'd last five minutes.
You know, I've been following politics in Britain long enough to remember a time when the BNP used to elect people to see council.
This is the kind of level to which they would elect councillors.
Is that correct?
Yes, that's right.
I imagine they would have been relatively stalwart, but no party has come to take the place of the BNP men and women who would serve on councils?
No, no.
No, they haven't.
I think my understanding is the BNP became popular in some northern towns because they, to their credit, when people like me were paying no attention to the British National Party, they were focusing on the Muslim rape gangs because...
Twenty, twenty-five years ago, a child went to a copper or to their local council, or the parent, and said, my child is getting gang raped.
They would just be told to go away.
I mean, just no attention.
The only people who would listen to them were the British National Party, who were vilified, was basically seen across, by all right thinking people, as the scum of the earth.
And they were the only people that those relatives of those...
And so, understandably, they then carved out a little bit of a constituency.
And I think, although people still, for some reason, people are still today hard, nationalist people are still hard on the British National Party, because the British National Party ultimately didn't succeed.
But I think it is the British National Party who got...
Those rape gangs investigated and prosecuted in the first place.
I don't think it was the English Defence League or Tommy Robinson.
I don't think it was a journalist.
I think it was the British National Party who did it.
So whatever people say about them, they should remember that and pay them some credit.
Yes, I agree.
I agree 100%.
Whatever failings we might attribute to the BNP or to its leadership, I think that was a very, very important thing they did, caught attention to these horrible things.
And perhaps later on in this program, we can talk about that and just a limp-wristed, disgusting reaction to it.
But before we move on to the whole question of remigration, can you tell me a little bit about your own background, how you came to a dissident view of what I think we are entirely...
Well, I think it started actually when I was 18. I did a bit of traveling and I went through some Muslim countries and hated it.
They say travel broadens the mind.
It didn't broaden my mind.
Pakistan, Kashmir, Turkey, Iran, just disgusting.
And what I found so disgusting about this country was the people.
I'd say that was a growing up experience.
To find out the depths that human nature can sink to, almost pervasively, uniformly.
It was really, really quite shocking.
And so then my background, my job is law.
And I specialize in zoning permissions, planning permissions.
I see, I see.
It's a way to make a living without a boss on my back.
Which has served me very well now that I'm persona non grata in respectable circles.
But my granddad and my mum, they were local counsellors who dealt with planning.
They specialised in planning.
So I heard about it over the breakfast tables.
So I knew about it.
That's the area I went into.
Many, decades and decades ago, when councillors actually were quite good, before they started getting paid.
But anyway, and then I started, after September 11th, I started to, I looked again at Islamic doctrine and understood why I had disliked Islamic countries so much and understood.
And people suggested to me, why didn't you do planning permissions?
Why didn't you stop?
Moss going ahead.
And I thought, no, I don't want to do that.
That's a busman's holiday.
I'd rather not.
And it'll just be hassle.
Which it is.
And then I eventually did it.
And I found I won.
And the feeling of being James Bond for...
Half a day is irresistible, and I just kept doing it.
Well, you know, even if you didn't feel like James Bond, I like that parallel.
You're doing your duty, and you're doing your duty to your ancestors, and you're fulfilling obligations to the people who come behind us.
I suppose that's another way of saying you feel like James Bond.
But no, congratulations to you.
It's wonderful.
May I ask you some of the specifics, though, about your travel in these Muslim countries?
What was it in particular that struck you?
I've been in a number of Muslim countries myself.
And did you spend a lot of time?
And at age 18, you did that kind of traveling?
Were you kind of a backpacker, hitchhiker?
Tell me a little bit more about those travels.
Backpacking with friends and other people who wanted to travel.
What struck me about the unpleasantness of Muslim countries was they have a different relationship to sewage than we do.
I think their relationship to the smell of sewage is like our relationship to the smell of cooking, the smell of baking bread, which we quite like the smell of baking bread.
And other countries might not like the smell of cooking, might think it's unhygienic.
And there was the filth, but I think primarily the sexual violence.
So I remember in Lahore, In Lahore, if one of the women in our group wanted to go into town, what we would do is two men accompanying her, one man standing right in front of her, one right behind, because she was just constantly getting grabbed or bumped into by accident by Pakistani males.
And also I noticed their sadistic treatment of their own vulnerable people, their attitudes towards their own poor.
And I think a different attitude toward violence and towards human life, I think.
It was almost routine nastiness and dishonesty as well.
But I think it was the sexual violence that I found so repellent.
And another thing, I can recall being in Srinagar, which is in Kashmir, Muslim Kashmir.
And the first day we arrived, I went for a little walk into town.
And this mother was with her boy, I suppose he was about three, maybe four.
And she was walking along the road with him.
And then I watched this and she stopped and she pulled his trousers down and he squatted down and defecated in the middle of the road.
Really, the amount that came out of this small child was quite an achievement.
He should have had a medal.
But this bright orange...
Raw sewage in the middle of the street.
And then he stood up again, she buttoned him up and walked off, and no one batted an eyelid.
And for the whole week I was in Srinagar, that raw sewage stayed in the street.
I see.
An indelible memory, unfortunately.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, you know, that's interesting.
I was struck by many similar things.
I have never been in those Middle Eastern Muslim countries, but I've been in all of the countries in North Africa.
And in addition to some of the things you talked to me, I was struck by how cruel they were to little donkeys.
Yes.
That do so much of the backbreaking labor.
They'd whip them mercilessly, beat them.
No sign of affection.
And they just worked them to death.
There's no such thing as a home for retired donkeys in any Muslim country, I'm quite sure.
Just the brutality of it.
That was another thing that struck me.
It's utterly, totally alien.
And to you, you from the British Isles, who are famous for your love of animals, that must have been repulsive.
Oh, horrible.
Shocking, shocking.
Yes.
I've since realized, at the time I thought this is something to do with the Muslim religion, I actually think it's a genetic thing because a lot of the things I objected to about Pakistan are also present in different ways in India, which is generally not Muslim.
Yes.
Including the cruelties of animals.
And the prevalence of rape as well.
Well, you know, I've never, well, I was in India once when I was nine years old.
I was taken by my parents.
I was not there for very long.
But what was seared into my nine-year-old experience at the time was seeing beggars on the street with little babies lying, I suppose they were to pluck at your heartstrings, but with flies buzzing around their eyelids and on their faces.
That seemed to be something that you were supposed to be attracted to and say, oh, these poor people, I'll give them money.
But just the kind of miserable poverty of these places, that was something that struck me as a child.
But I would have thought that with this idea of reincarnation and sacred cows, would there not be something, you know, I guess, is it the Jains who sweep the paths before their feet in case they might inadvertently crush an insect who could be the reincarnation of Aunt Jane or whoever it is?
There's some sect in India that does this.
I would have thought that perhaps this might translate into better treatment of animals.
But are they just as bad as other third worlders when it comes to beasts of burden?
Pretty bad, yeah, I thought in India.
I certainly did see cruelties of animals there.
I don't think it doesn't have the same sense of achievement that it does in the Muslim countries I went to, the sort of gleefulness about it.
Yes.
I think it's probably I think that culture comes out of...
I agree.
I agree.
The idea that somehow, well, so many American liberals will talk about, oh, the problem with the blacks.
It's this dysfunctional culture they have.
I hate the word dysfunctional to begin with, this sort of high-sounding nonsense.
I far prefer the good old expression degeneracy.
But in any case, as if cultures just fall from the sky and lucky people get the good ones and unlucky people get the bad ones.
No, no, they spring out of a genetic substrate.
Completely convinced of this.
Yes.
But, well, I guess this is a bit of an introduction, a lengthy introduction, the whole question of remigration.
Could you speak to me about your concept of remigration?
Why it's necessary?
I don't think that'll be too long an explanation.
But just your general sense of the necessity, how we approach it.
Do tell me what your views on it are.
I think that remigration, remigration, it is necessary.
The reason I think it's necessary is because we are entitled to our homeland.
I actually think everyone is entitled.
Everyone wants a homeland and everyone is entitled to one, including us.
And we only have this one.
So looking at it from England, it's where is the English?
Well, it is England.
This is our country.
It is our home.
So everyone is entitled to that sense of home.
It is very much tied in with a sense of home, also a sense of flourishing, which I think a certain amount of homogeneity, a very high degree of homogeneity is beneficial for that.
Diversity is not a strength.
If we are entitled to that, well, if I go on a bit further as to why we're entitled to that, I think that if people form that sense of home and the sense of homeland by people, the key thing is ethnicity.
And I think ethnicity, I'd say, is half culture.
And half race.
People who look, think, act and speak like you.
And the culture element, I think, comes out of the racial element.
So I think underneath, it's actually very much almost entirely about race ultimately.
And so I think that we are entitled to have that sense of home.
And I think that sense of home at bottom relies upon race.
Now, the question then is how far...
How much homogeneity should we have?
How much remigration should we have?
And how is it accomplished?
Well, you know, everything you've said so far makes so much sense to me.
It is always a mystery, especially...
When Europeans do not instinctively react positively to what you're saying.
I mean, we in the United States, we have this history of having come to a continent that was nevertheless occupied by others.
Then we forcibly brought a different racial group, made them live with us.
And we have a different history from you.
And it seems to me that what you're saying about a homeland.
The sense of homogeneity required to live comfortably and happily in a homeland should be so obvious to Europeans that I'm dismayed as to how difficult it is for Europeans to accept that.
So before we get into talking about how we would go about engaging in remigration, can you speculate a little as to why Europeans are so unwilling and unable to accept what to you and me seems so...
Yes, I'm afraid, and this is where I make myself unpopular and deliver bad news.
I'm afraid it comes down to welfare and the welfare state, the big providing state.
I think this is, it has very bad and very soporific, anesthetic effects upon us.
I think the first thing is...
It means that people just become preoccupied with the state and state welfare in order to survive.
And we look to the state to ensure our survival.
And if we're doing that...
We're not going to turn on the state.
And our general view will tend to be, I don't need to worry about anything else.
I don't need to worry about civilization.
I don't need to worry about a homeland because I'm going to survive.
All I need to worry about is whether the government is going to be sending me money, whether it's going to be paying for free things that I like, like health care, care of the elderly.
Care for my children, education for my children.
As long as the state will take care of all of that and keep me safe, I don't really have to worry about anything else.
So why should I worry about society?
So I think there is that sort of opiate effect, opium of the people, if you like, to quote someone famous.
But I think it has that effect.
But I think it also has subtler effects.
I would say philosophical.
And really that means that slang for general attitudes that people have.
And that is ideas of universalism, which I think the democratic state necessarily incorporates.
Everywhere you have a democratic state authority, you will tend to have notions of human rights, universalist ideas.
I am of the same...
I have the same value as you.
Which is actually just plainly it's not true.
I might not be the same value as a human being as you.
You might not be the same value as Bach, J.S. Bach.
But it gives us that idea.
And that universalism, I think, incorporates ideas about wider universalism.
The rights of migrants and immigrants, minority groups.
I think that becomes turbocharged and really cemented when you add welfare to that democratic state.
And then the politics of guilt that accompany that...
That sort of welfare universalism, or sorry, the politics of guilt that accompany multiculturalism and multiracialism and anti-racism, I think they act almost like a spearhead for the universalist welfare ideas that we like.
And we in Europe, and I can talk especially from my own country, we really, really like our welfare states.
And the reason we like it is because it is...
On its own terms, it is a rational financial consideration because the majority of people, the large majority of people, put in less than they take out.
So there's always a ratchet for more spending.
We're always open to suggestions of more spending and we're always very hostile to the suggestion of any cut in spending.
I don't think it's any surprise that that pro-welfare view will go hand in hand with anti-racism, inclusiveness, DEI, and especially what equity is the welfare state writ large.
It basically says whoever you are, whatever your abilities, whatever your ethics, whatever you do, it doesn't matter.
you must have an equal outcome.
Well, just to interrupt you, that actually has never quite occurred to me in those specific terms.
In fact, I think what you say is persuasive automatically On the other hand, in the United States, we talk about what's called the Florida effect.
And what is meant by that is we have a certain amount of local autonomy because of our federal system.
And you will find that state welfare policies Vary from state to state.
And Florida is one of the states in which there is what is considered one of the most niggardly welfare systems.
And whereas in more homogeneous states, all white states, well, there's no all white state left.
But those that are more homogeneous have more generous welfare policies.
The reasoning is that if you have all these old white people who have retired to Florida and you have all these young Hispanics, a certain number of blacks, and the old white people don't wish to be taxed to give benefits to poor or drugged out or unintentionally pregnant young Hispanics.
So the Florida effect suggests that when you have diversity, there is much less willingness.
To grant welfare.
In other words, people are more inclined to give welfare to people like themselves.
And I think there's a definite truth to that.
But perhaps in the case of Britain, it's a national thing.
And these foreigners came in at a time when, now you would certainly know the history of British welfare far better than I, but By the time these non-whites came in in large numbers, were the British people already used to sucking off the public teat?
As I say, what you say has a certain plausibility to me.
Yes, the British welfare state began just before.
World War I, around about 1911, first public pensions came in.
It really got going after 1945, about 1948, and in a big way.
It was well established there by that Labour government after World War II. Mass immigration to Britain tends to date from Tony Blair's election in 1997. And the massive waves of the last five years, those are the really, like, 1.3 million coming in last year.
I mean, that's the gross figure.
So, yes, you're right.
Mass immigration happened to us when welfare, the idea of welfare, the idea of the state...
What was called the cradle-to-grave welfare state, taking care of your survival needs, that had been established for about three generations by the time mass immigration really got going.
And it was very well established, almost a religion, I think, with the health service being the holy altar of that religion.
Well, it's certainly true that Sweden, a country that we associate with the welfare state, was one of the most active in welcoming these utter unassimilable aliens.
So perhaps you're on to something that I've never really thought seriously about, that this idea of cradle-grave welfare is a mentality that easily spreads itself out to the entire world to some degree.
Yes.
I would say there's another side to it.
If you ask me why is it happening, I would say it's because our leaders are doing it to us.
Welfare explains why we allow them to do it to us.
The question remains, why are our leaders doing it to us?
Across the board, you see across Western Europe and other countries and wider afield, Western leaders are doing it in lockstep.
So that's not a mistake.
That's deliberate.
My view is that it's about power, and it makes powerful people more powerful if they can make the people over whom they have power less powerful.
And I think introducing foreign populations does what it's done in our country.
It takes away a sense of identity.
It takes away a sense of home, a sense of people being together.
It creates division.
The studies that have been done on this, the Putnam study, it just sows mistrust between everyone.
And that makes people easier to rule, more manageable.
And I think that is why our leaders are doing it.
It's about people with power wanting more power.
The way I put it is the way any wife beater.
He understands that.
If you can grind her down, she will become more dependent on you, not less.
I think a neighbourhood, a tin pot, a neighbourhood thug, he will understand some sort of, like a Tony Soprano figure.
He'll kind of understand if he, the more fear he can create in his neighbourhood, the more people will tend to defer to him.
And I think there is the same thing happening here.
I think that's the reason, because it gives them more power.
I think it is as psychopathic as that.
But at the same time, you see this repeatedly in the United States.
You will have, I remember in particular, we had a white congressman out in California named Robert Dornan.
And he was asked, I can't remember what the question was, but he said something like, well...
You know, there's nothing wrong with immigration of people who are unlike me and folks like me, blonde hair, blue eyes.
And we're on the way out.
And that's just fine.
Well, that was while he was still a congressman.
But he then lost his congressional seat to someone with the name of Sanchez, who was more reflective of these newcomers.
This sort of thing is not completely lost on other politicians.
At least when you have an allegedly democratic society, then as the majority population is replaced, then the rulers who are part of that majority population will likewise be replaced.
So this ends up meaning that if they have any nepotistic feelings at all and they want their children to take their place in the ruling structure, they're going to be edged out simply on the base of numbers alone.
Again, I don't think that what you describe is utterly without value, but it would seem to me...
Entirely obvious, even to the people who rule us, even if they live in their protected enclaves, they never have to send their children to school where there have to be three interpreters at every PTA meeting.
They don't have neighbors who play Ranchera music at three in the morning.
They know in some sense that they are being displaced and this will displace their children, but perhaps they're just oblivious to this.
These are mysterious things to me.
Would Dornan expect his child to step into his shoes as governor?
He was a congressman.
He was a congressman.
I think, well, and these days you will even have non-white.
Congresswomen saying, well, the United States, the ruling class is too white and too male, and we've got to change that.
Now, for those, and then again, for those who are in power, Let's take Kamala Harris and Joe Biden, the outgoing duo here.
I can hardly call them the dynamic duo, but this dilapidated duo that are heading off into the sunset for good.
Has it really increased their power or would it have increased their power if they would remain in office that they let in an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants?
I tend to think, and I'm often accused of naivete, but I hesitate to think that people are so motivated strictly on the basis of accumulating power.
I think very often they dress up their policies in terms of some kind of moral superiority or some kind of virtuousness.
Do you not detect any of that in the British ruling class, for example?
They will dress up what they say in moral garb.
Vichy France dressed up its collaboration with the German occupiers in the language of patriotism.
So you can dress up anything as something else.
They'll use moral language.
They're opposing hate.
I wouldn't pay any attention to the garb.
But even in realistic terms, how would Rishi Sunak, for example, or if you go back further, Tony Blair, how would their power be increased?
By the fact that there are now millions of these unassimilable non-whites living in the United Kingdom.
Yeah, I don't think it's done in the way that I might have appeared to imply there, which is it's a conscious, a calculated conspiracy by unpowerful men in a concrete bunker, like the James Bond movie.
I think it's more the general, sort of, I would call the...
I'm trying to think of the accretation, the general accumulation of things that work, almost like grains of sand forming near a bend in the river.
Gradually enough grains of sand settle there and you get an island growing up.
I think it's what serves their power tends to survive.
The way I'd put it is if our political system is pretty much a duopoly, which a duopoly...
Is almost a monopoly.
And I think they, between them, understand that let's not fight over, let's cooperate over, which they certainly have done, actually, is to cooperate over immigration, multiculturalism and anti-racism and welcoming people.
Let's not fight over that issue because it...
It reduces the amount of business or the amount of power to go round.
And I think that explains the understanding between politicians.
Because you never get one of them, despite the polls, all the polls saying the majority just want a complete halt on immigration.
You never get one of them doing it.
So I think it's almost you could...
If I was bitter and twisted, I would say it's a class thing.
It's about class power.
Sort of solidarity to...
I don't want to talk like a Marxist, which I'm not, but almost like a ruling class, a ruling cadre.
I think you're probably certainly right about that.
We talk about luxury beliefs in the United States.
People who have enough wealth, or as the great Joe Sobron used to say, the purpose of a college education in the United States is to give you the right attitudes towards non-whites and the means to live as far away from them as possible.
And so those of us who rule us, these college-educated people, they can...
Look down on ordinary Americans or ordinary Britons who don't want this and they say, well, look at these crude people.
We are sophisticated.
We are open to the world.
There's a kind of superiority complex and a consequential and a consequent contempt for those who don't want the kind of world that they're building for us.
I think that's certainly part of it.
But what you're describing, of course, means that there is a bipartisan or tripartisan or quadripartisan in a multi-party situation coalition against what you're aiming for, namely remigration.
Yes, very much.
It chimes in with my experience of stopping mosques, getting permission.
You see that, as I touched on earlier, The councillors kind of, they fear white people because they fear that white people mean business and they resent the fact that white English people are actually quite difficult to rule, quite independent, sturdy and don't like being lied to and shoved around.
And you can see they actually quite like the Muslim.
They sort of quite like the fact that they're disrupting that.
They find the Muslim population just much easier, in some ways easier to rule.
I mean, they're much nastier, but they're more predictable.
You can buy them off, and it disrupts the general, I think, what I would call a white European wish.
Certainly an English wish not to be ruled too hard by those of you.
And they like it.
And I can see why.
I can see why.
Yes, yes.
Well, you could draw a parallel between what you describe as the tractability of the Muslims to our own blacks and Hispanics.
Now, blacks will certainly go rioting and running around, but you do certain things and they can predictably be calmed down.
Certainly, Hispanics are much, much more tractable in that respect, too.
But yes, white people, when they do get their backs up, they're a stroppy bunch.
That's certainly true.
I'm still amusing about this, but how do you propose in the face of this almost monolithic opposition to the notion of Britain being for the British, how do you plan but how do you propose in the face of this almost monolithic opposition to the notion of Britain being for the British, how do you plan to sell I don't think ultimately it will require any selling at all.
I think there will be, I would say, almost a ferocious enthusiasm for it in time.
What I think, I think it will happen.
I think the problem is not that we won't do it.
The problem is we might do it too violently and enthusiastically once we wake up.
The reason we're allowing our politicians to do it, the politicians are doing it to us, we're allowing them to.
The reason we're allowing them to do it, the reason why, as you've pointed out, we are so anaesthetised in the face of the Muslim rape gangs is because I think it Unfortunately, it comes down to the democratic welfare state.
And as long as that is functioning reasonably well, as long as the check is landing on the map every couple of weeks, as long as you think, well, they'll take care of that, meaning the people in authority will take care of that, then I think we will remain anesthetized by that welfare opiate.
I think that that will continue.
So then the question is, is that welfare state?
How long is it going to continue to survive?
Will it continue to survive indefinitely?
And I think in Britain and Europe, the economies are in such bad shape that our welfare states are going to break down.
And when that happens, that will be like the death of God.
It will be like the sky falling on our heads because we are so accustomed to the idea that welfare, government provision, just distills out of the air like rain.
And we think that the way to make sure that continues is to get stroppy at politicians or to have notions like solidarity.
Solidarity doesn't make two and two equal five.
It doesn't make the numbers add up.
And I would say, I think we're seeing in Britain, if you look at the economic side, which is something I focus on for these reasons.
If you look at the economic side of the UK, what you see is it is starting to go wrong.
The tax takers hit maximum.
It's gone over maximum.
What's happened is the recent tax increase that came with the new Labour government, they just increased employers' tax by roughly about 2%.
That appears to have put the economy into reverse.
It appears to have the economy is sort of going into contraction, which they can't handle.
You can't handle that because if your economy is shrinking, no one's going to lend to you because it's like lending to a loss-making business.
And I think that is going to result in the collapse of the welfare state.
Well, tell me this.
Are you then saying that the welfare state will have to collapse before white Britons wake up?
I'm sorry.
I think yes.
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
I think that.
And the reason I think...
Yes?
No, please go ahead.
Yes.
The reason I think that is I've been doing what I'm doing for nearly 15 years, since 2010. All the while.
And in 2013, I helped to edit the definitive book about the Muslim rape gang, a very good book called Easy Meat by a fellow called Peter McLaughlin.
That's now, it got banned on Amazon, inevitably.
But I wrote the forward to it, and I was very honoured to do that.
And what I've observed is...
This incredible, frustrating passivity, which you observed in your recent podcast about, you know, is this the worst or the lowest that the white man has ever sung or something like that?
And that is continuing, and that has continued for, well, since September the 11th, I mean, or since our 2005 tube bombing.
Well, let me propose perhaps a more, I'll strike a point.
Perhaps a more optimistic note.
After all, there was that black fellow.
The fact that he was born in Britain, apparently, was some sort of great thing that we should sing hosannas over, who tried to slit the throats of these young girls who were at some kind of dance party.
And this seemed to be just a straw that broke a number of backs.
This was just too much, this fellow trying to kill.
And I think he tried to kill some of the teachers involved in this.
And, lo and behold, the Saxons began to hate.
There was a real uproar about this.
Now, that was not prompted by the Czechs failing to land on the map.
That was prompted by a particular outrage that just motivated people in a way that other things have not.
Could we not expect that kind of reaction?
Rather than waiting for the collapse of the welfare state.
And of course, at the same time, the more people like you and me are active in describing this desire for home, that is the most natural, normal and healthy thing in the world.
I think the more minds we can change beforehand, before a collapse or before an event like this slaughter.
It makes the likelihood of remigration or some kind of awakening of white people more likely.
But did you not take any hope in the reaction to that act of slaughter?
Yes, I don't like riots, but I like those riots.
I don't like seeing coppers getting bricks thrown at me.
No, I don't like it either.
Yeah, but I was heartened by the reaction.
That evidence, you're right, it does go against what I'm saying, because the welfare state was still continuing, so it hadn't collapsed then, and there was a reaction.
I would say it's too early to say that's going to be repeated and grow and grow, that kind of reaction.
So far, I think that event, that whole event, is being fast forgotten.
I would say most people have forgotten the name of that fellow who, he murdered three I think he injured six others and a schoolteacher at a dance class.
And they were tiny girls, small girls.
Yes, yes.
And so it was an appalling, appalling.
I mean, I would have thought it should have been the reaction in a healthy society.
I think the reaction would be much, much stronger.
You actually wouldn't need riots because the authorities would be...
That's right.
That's right.
You wouldn't need riots, yes.
The authorities would be going in with a mallet.
A healthy society would be in danger of aggressively overreacting, which the authorities laid flowers and mumbled the usual cliches.
Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Our thoughts and prayers, our thoughts and prayers.
Great God, our thoughts and prayers aren't going to do those families one bit of good.
Can I give you the opposite argument?
All right, please.
Just, I think, a month or two months before that happened, we had a general election.
And the upshot of that was 14% of the people who voted, so not the entire electorate, but those who voted, voted for reform.
And that's considered far right.
And reform, they are implacably hostile to any idea of remigration.
Nigel Farage has gone so far as to say we need to make nice with Muslims because they're going to be in the majority soon.
Incredible, yes.
And that is as far right as we're going.
That's only 14% of those who voted getting up the gumption to go that far.
And the one I look at is, another one I look at is in 2019, there was a by-election, and I think five vaguely patriotic or nationalist parties, including reform, stood.
And between them, they got less than 2% of the vote for all five parties.
The numbers who voted for all those five parties, I think the same day or very shortly after, there was a spontaneous demonstration in Glasgow to stifle the attempt to deport two illegal immigrants to Britain who'd been handed deportation orders.
So the police were coming up to...
Take them out, take them to the airport.
And Glaswegians had spontaneously gathered to prevent it and did prevent it.
And more people turned up for that and voted for vaguely patriotic parties in a by-election to the UK Parliament in 2019. So remigration requires power.
Sorry.
Most people see it as...
We get elected with a thumping majority, a majority big enough for us to be able to force through policies that remigrate people at the end of a truncheon, at the end of a gun if necessary.
I think you need a thumping parliamentary majority for that.
And at the moment, there are no local councillors from any party that's promoting remigration.
I think that is far off.
Sorry.
Well, you could very well be right.
I tend to be an optimist.
Perhaps I'm clutching at straws.
And it's certainly true that the government came down like a ton of bricks on people who simply encouraged a vigorous reaction on account of this slaughter.
And the kind of hate speech laws you now have in Britain, people going to the big house simply for expressing their views, all of that is very repressive.
But at the same time, it seems to me that it can result in a kind of more muscular reaction to this utter displacement of everything that most British people deep down inside must truly love.
I'm sure that most white Britons have...
Some instinctive sense of attachment to the land of Shakespeare.
Horatio Nelson, you name it.
There's so much about Britain that is exclusively British.
It can't be shared with these Muslims and Africans.
That identification must be lying there, smoldering somewhere, somehow.
I would like to think that it can be reawakened without a kind of an economic collapse.
What you are describing is what sometimes goes under the name of accelerationism in the United States.
States.
There were people who were suggesting, well, let's let Kamala Harris win the election.
And she'll make things so bad that white folks will wake up.
Well, I don't want them to wake up because there is some gang of non-whites at their door banging it down and planning to rape their daughters.
I would like to think that if there are enough sane people saying sane things in a way that reaches people that people can wake up without their life collapsing around them.
And And at the same time, I'm worried that if life collapses around white people, will that necessarily spark some kind of latent tribalism and a sense of racial solidarity?
I'm not absolutely convinced that it would.
When you say that there must be feeling for the land of Shakespeare and Elgar and Constable, the kind of political degeneracy that I'm referring to, I think you would understand.
I think that also covers cultural degeneracy as well.
Yes, that's true.
If you have this widespread welfare state, I think one of the effects it has is just to dissolve.
The idea that you contribute to a cultural tradition, even if only by appreciating it.
And you see this in music and art.
Well, give me your opinion on modern art and a lot of modern music, the decline of the rubbish nature of a lot of modern music and modern culture in general.
And so I'm not sure that I think that cultural...
I think the collapse of the welfare state is unavoidable.
And this is where I might sound like a little...
What I'm saying might sound really too extreme, but I think if the welfare state collapses...
I think the state authority will collapse because the purpose of democracy in my country is, and I think in Western Europe, is to provide the things we want, to provide welfare.
That's why we give these people that we detest, the politicians, and really don't trust, why we give them authority, because they are administering the welfare state.
I think if that breaks down, I think the whole social contract breaks down.
I think we are living in an age of probably the beginning of the end of the age of the state.
That's what I would put it.
Well, perhaps so.
Perhaps so.
I get the sense that at least here in the United States, the machine can roll on for quite some time longer.
I know that the French are in the midst of...
A pretty serious debate about trying to plug the holes in the budget deficit.
They really are talking seriously about firing a certain number of bureaucrats.
Who knows whether this will actually happen.
And it's certainly true that in the kind of mass democracy we have, if people are benefiting materially from the handouts.
In fact, I've always thought that going into debt, a country goes into debt.
And this debt, if it's ever paid off, is going to be paid off by future generations.
But politicians put the country in debt so they can bribe the voters today.
This is an utterly awful and immoral thing to be doing.
But my sense is that even the United States, with a current deficit of well over 100% of GNP, this process could stumble on for quite some time.
And perhaps you are closer to the breaking point in Britain than I'm aware, but I don't want to be in the position of having to wait for that to happen, for white people to wake up.
No, well, I agree with you.
It is depressing and it's very disheartening to watch your own people, your own population, just not...
Not waking up, not getting up, not taking necessary action and confronting the problems that confront us.
So that is depressing.
I think it is shameful, but I've lived with it for the last 15 years, and I don't see very big signs of it changing.
What I'd like to do to explain why I think it will happen, I think 99% Remigration will happen.
If I can explain, to explain why, if we've got a couple of minutes more, if I can give you a thought experiment, I suspect probably what we're going to get is if the state authority breaks down, a bit like, say, in Argentina, you imagine, and the problem with that is always crime, mushrooms, and people need law.
And so if the state can no longer impose law and security and safety, then I think people will, we, will do what white people do, which is to club together to provide it for ourselves.
In those circumstances, that will tend to be on an opt-in, opt-out basis, because you no longer have the overarching state that has a monopoly on violence.
So people will, I think, just...
Join legal systems voluntarily because it's a necessary part of survival.
You need to submit to law in order to be able to protect yourself from criminals and outside threats.
Sorry.
No, no.
Well, you could very well be right, but we are approaching the end of the hour and perhaps we should talk about what may be brighter prospects across the English Channel.
I know you are aware of what is being billed as the Remigration Summit to be held in mid-May, I believe, in Europe.
And some of the people who are putting that on, men like Martin Selner, Andries von Lagenhofer and others, they are very staunch, admirable young people.
Would you think that the prospects are better in Europe?
I think, well, certainly we would have to agree that Hungary, for example, the Visigard states, some of them have already taken the position, no, we just don't want any Muslims at all.
We see the problems you all are having out in the West, and we're not having it now.
There is a certain amount of leakage.
Even in a place like Poland, you see this kind of wishy-washy unwillingness to really take a firm stand.
This Donald Tusk guy, who's a prime minister now, I think he's a deeply suspicious character.
But I think the prospects are definitely better there.
Would you not agree?
Certainly in the Visegrad countries, Hungary and Poland, yes.
They haven't made the mistakes we've made in general.
Yes.
In Europe, in Western Europe, I think it will probably follow a very similar pattern to the pattern that I think we're going to follow.
Germany has alternative for Deutschland.
France has the National Front.
I'm not impressed by French politics.
But I don't think the National Front is going to...
They're not talking about remigration, not in any way.
No, no.
AFDR, they are using the word occasionally.
Yes.
I think that goes...
There is room for some hope there via the state.
So that goes against what I'm saying.
And there's room for optimism that the state can do it.
I have my doubts because, let's say, in Britain...
I don't know the numbers of foreigners in Germany.
It's got to be maybe 20, maybe 30 million.
In my country, it's about 15 to 20. No one's really sure because they don't keep numbers very well.
But if you say, if our government, if we get a hardline remigrating government tomorrow, right, we're going to repatriate, remigrate a lot of you.
And they say, no, we like it here, we're not going.
How do you accomplish that?
How do you...
I've tried to game this out in videos I've done on YouTube.
Let's suppose you have just the city of Leicester and you've got a bunch of, say, 10 tower blocks.
How do you comb through all of those tower blocks to find every non-English person or every person you think should be remigrated and to get them out of that tower block?
And suppose they're going to booby-truck their own front doors, they're going to attack you, they're going to attack you with knives.
How do you...
And then you've got to...
You've got to sift through the population of that tower block, maybe ask some questions about their origins.
I can't see the British Army doing that.
And then you've got to take them to a holding area.
And that's going to be very expensive, which puts people off.
But also very...
I think it could be.
It probably would.
Could be extremely violent.
If you've got a population of millions who say no, you're going to have to use guns, I think.
And white people don't...
I don't think we're going to like that volume of bloodshed.
No, we're certainly not.
As I often say, to get white people to agree to something in a massive way, they have to think that it's proper and good and ultimately moral.
We're unlike other people that way.
And simply to say, look, this is what we need to survive.
That will suffice for some, but that will not suffice for enough, I believe.
So, yes, but we will be facing a similar challenge, and perhaps this will be a harbinger for the future.
As you know, Donald Trump, coming into office in just a few days, he has promised a massive deportation program of illegal aliens.
Now, if they're here illegally, Unlike people in Britain, there are millions of unassimilables in Britain who are there legally now.
But there is a huge, absolutely unimpeachable legal basis for throwing out people who are there breaking the law simply by being there.
But we will see.
Will Donald Trump have the backbone?
In the face of, I'm sure, there will be news broadcasts of weeping Guatemalans with the babies in their arms saying, oh, no, no, no, I'm being herded off.
And there will be parallels to cattle cars taking the Jews to Auschwitz.
Will he have the backbone really to force people to leave?
That'll be an interesting test because that is...
Ultimately, the kind of test that all white nations, if they are to reclaim their homelands, are going to have to face.
I'd say that there are two questions I would have.
The first one would be, if he promised to build a wall last time and didn't, will he do this?
Which I think requires more guts and more force.
I agree.
Will he do this now?
And no, that actually is, will he do that?
Yes.
I'm not sure that he will.
No, I'm not sure he will either.
I think that, unfortunately, Donald Trump is a man who strikes me as having no real principles.
He has a certain number of good instincts, but he loves to be loved.
And if the country To even the slightest degree, even if some of his supporters also will be moved by these tearful scenes.
You could probably find some immigration and customs enforcement people who will come on television and say, oh, it breaks my heart to do this, and I stay up late at night, and I just can't get to sleep.
These crying women and their tears haunt me.
You'll get that.
And?
Will Donald Trump be able to prevail?
I am not at all convinced that he will.
So, and here is an easy test.
We're not talking about stripping people of citizenship.
We're not talking about taking legal residence and heaving them out.
We're talking about people who are here illegally.
Will he have the courage to go through?
I'm not at all convinced, and we'll soon start finding out.
But again, you know, in a way, The English-speaking countries, and when you look around the world, it's the same for the Canadians and New Zealanders, the Australians, the Americans.
Compared to the Europeans, the political representation of any kind of even faintly nationalistic or faintly racially conscious parties is essentially zero.
We're a disgrace to our race in that respect.
I agree.
The national rally, they don't have the backbone we'd like, but they are a political representation of some suggestion that France should be French.
We have absolutely nothing like that, nothing remotely resembling that.
And as you say, some of my American friends took great heart at Nigel Farage and Reform, but he's just backtracking on all the most important points.
Yeah.
No, it's a dismal business.
But, yes, please.
I appreciate you.
Let me see if I can give you some hope.
Yes.
I think you need two things for immigration.
I think the first thing is you need the end of multicultural protections.
You basically need complete freedom of association and non-association.
So you, me, and a thousand other buddies, we can club together if we want to.
And we can also say, you, you, and you, you can't.
Freedom of non-association, if we want to.
So complete freedom there.
The other thing, I think, is that we have to take care of our own survival needs.
So we can't just subcontract that out to the government or the big state.
We have to make decisions about...
I think you will get people making really very rational and hard-headed decisions.
And the thought experiment I wanted to propose to you is let's suppose the state system has broken down and then One legal system is set up in one area and it says only white Americans can join this.
No offense, but we don't want anyone else joining.
We want to be together.
Like Iranian.
No one else can join it.
And another one says, no, all the 57 varieties can join.
Which one are you going to join?
Well, given the choice, most whites are going to follow their blood.
I think in the United States, that kind of thing is conceivable if more local autonomy is wrested from the federal government.
I think that is ultimately going to be the solution in the United States.
Different groups, different states can start with actual private, private associations, almost Orania-like undertakings in the United States.
And I see the...
burgeoning beginnings of this, even now, we call them voluntary communities, some underground, some above ground, but a realization that we must have a place where we can be us.
And that is a place that is consciously ours.
And ideally, that can eventually lead to at least substantial local autonomy, perhaps even to secession and sovereignty.
I don't know.
But as I always say, I do think that it is a problem to a large degree of selling the idea Now, you suggested that it won't have to be sold.
When everything falls apart, then things will just go our way naturally.
I'm not convinced of that.
People have to be given a direction.
A way to think ahead of time.
And as I say, I would like to think that it's not going to require collapse.
But this is a problem we're not going to solve in this conversation.
But in any case, to close, do you have any plans to attend the Remigration Summit that our Continental Brothers are planning for us?
I would like to.
I was going to wait and see where it is.
I would like to go.
I wouldn't want to put a damper on it because my views are that the state can't accomplish remigration.
And I think everyone there wants the state to do it.
Well, perhaps they might succeed in changing your mind.
Yes.
Let's open ourselves to that possibility.
Well, they need evidence.
Yes, yes, they need evidence.
People don't produce it.
Well, this is the lawyer in your speaking, not the idealist.
Yeah, well, what's going to happen?
What's going to work?
Yes, yes, yes.
Well, at least they will get together and talk about it.
And that is one thing.
And it's encouraging to me that so many Europeans are getting over these particularist disagreements that have so disfigured our European homeland.
I remember in Hungary being astonished to meet Hungarians who are trying to decide whom they hate more, the Slovaks or the Romanians.
I'm trying to tell, fellas, we have more important fish to fry.
And I do see this as a kind of sense of Europeans taking responsibility for their entire continent, their entire race, not just their local scrap of it.
But, well, perhaps, Mr. Bobi, you and I might meet wherever that re-migration summit takes place.
That's what I was going to ask.
Are you planning to go?
Well, I too will have to find out where it is, but I'm certainly moving in that direction.
I think it would be a very interesting opportunity.
I haven't bought my plane tickets yet because we don't know where it's going to be.
But no, I think it would be a very exciting opportunity to see some of the really foremost figures in the European racial nationalist front.
But in any case, I must thank you.
This has been a thought-provoking and stimulating conversation, and I'm very much obliged to you for taking the time to spend it with me, Mr. Bovee.
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