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Sept. 8, 2022 - Radio Renaissance - Jared Taylor
01:00:37
The Antifascist State
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Hey everyone, this is Gregory Hood.
Welcome back to Left, White, and Right.
I am here with Dr. Paul Gottfried, who's been one of my biggest intellectual influences and certainly needs no introduction to anyone listening to this podcast.
Author of several important books, but the one that I want to talk about today is Antifascism, the Course of a Crusade, which I recently reviewed at American Renaissance and which Dr. Gottfried responded to And sir, I think it's particularly relevant given the extraordinary address of the President of the United States last night, complete with the red and black color background, which I found especially concerning.
What did you think of Biden's speech last night?
I thought it was a fascinating speech.
I thought it was fascinating because it sort of fits in to what has become sort of the dominant leftist totalitarian ideology of our times.
Of course, anti-fascism, I think, is an important expression of this, but there's also a kind of structural development which interests me, and that is the creation of a totalitarian regime in which you can have more than one party, and you do not
have to control the media or put people in jail or muzzle them
because they're lapdogs. They do exactly what you want, whether it's the United States, Germany, Canada, France,
England.
They're all on the left.
They're all on the woke left.
They're all globalists.
They all hate the working class or despise them as their social inferiors.
They're all anti-white.
They're all in favor, generally, of open borders.
And as long as the regime does what they want, which it always does, you know, they're not going to complain.
Now, you do not have a single party dictatorship.
That's archaic.
What you do is you have a block of indistinguishable parties.
So, in Belgium, all the parties are the same.
In Germany, they entered the coalitions, there's no significant difference.
France, the same is true with the party La France En Marche, or whatever The party of Macron is now called.
But what you do is you always have a party that you isolate as being on the far right.
Germany, Alternative für Deutschland, Flamsblock in Belgium, Rassemblement National in France,
and go on and on like this. They all have the bad guys who are neo-Nazis, fascists.
They generally are parties that attract the working class and want to restrict immigration
and support some kind of national identity. A government like that, of course, rules Hungary.
Therefore, Hungary, you know, has become the new Nazi Germany.
And what Biden, I think, was doing was trying to bring the United States into line with the models in all of our satellite countries.
So, what he was saying is that not all people who vote Republican are evil, just the MAGA Republicans.
Now, there are good Republicans, like Charlie Baker in Massachusetts, Spencer Cox in Utah, all of these people who vote the same way as the Democrats in every significant issue.
Someone like Murakowski in Alaska.
These are all people who are going to be part of the system.
But anybody who is to the right of them will be treated like a Nazi, which means the IRS will go after them.
They will not be able to get jobs.
The Secret Service, which has now become the secret police, will go after them.
But this is already the dominant model in other Western democracies, in quotation.
So, I think we're simply taking this over.
And I think Biden's speech was simply an attempt to show that, you know, this new model is going to be put into... I was very impressed, or at least struck by the fact that he distinguishes the MAGA Republicans from the woke Republicans, where the Republicans will cooperate with the Democrats.
Right.
Right.
And that's very important because it's not going to be a one party dictatorship.
There is going to be some kind of minimal opposition that will be allowed.
Yeah, the question will be how many Republicans are willing to fit into that role.
What I what I'm looking at is how many Republicans are basically going to come along in the next few days and essentially say, well, President Biden and I disagree on various things like whether we should tax at 2.1 percent or 2 percent.
But he's fundamentally right about the danger to the republic, because I've always thought that Republicans hate their own.
No, I think you're right.
You know that Jonah Goldberg tweeted this morning that he agreed with Biden.
Yeah.
In his speech.
particularly that they fight a lot harder to put down a primary challenge than they do in a general election,
because I think to them there's more at stake somehow.
Mm-hmm.
No, I think I think you're right. You know that Jonah Goldberg tweeted this morning that he agreed with Biden. Yeah.
So, you know, I mean and this is where the neoconservatives probably stand.
Many of the neoconservatives have even, you know, stopped pretending they're Republicans.
Yeah, Jennifer Rubin in places like that.
Yeah, Jennifer Rubin.
I mean the question is, Will the Republican Party as a whole be willing to go along with this designated role as official losers?
Because, I mean, the response that we've seen so far from Lindsey Graham, from Kevin McCarthy, is basically, well, Mr. President, we all respect you, but we disagree with you, and this is divisive, and what we really should be talking about is inflation, or something like that.
I think Biden has the wind at his back, and I think over the last few years, especially as they've gotten away with more and more deplatforming, More and more censorship, more and more restriction of the financial system.
They've sort of finally understood that they're pushing on an open door, that they really can go a lot farther with this.
And so from President Biden's point of view, and certainly from the media's point of view, why not do this?
I mean, the media is already handling this as one of the most important speeches and greatest speeches of all time.
And I think your progressive base doesn't There's no longer anything in their head that will prevent them from saying things like, well, manga Republicans should be locked up.
I mean, that idea of classical liberalism has been gone for at least five years now, I would say.
You sound very much like me.
Same read.
But, you know, I think that The Republicans have also been dealt a very bad hand.
You have all of these white young women who are to the left, probably, of the squad.
I mean, I was looking at some of the psychology today.
It's like 60% of the women interviewed between the ages of Of 18 and 49 are against free speech.
They think it's much more important to have an inclusive society, which means transgendered and, you know, critical race theory, all the rest of this stuff.
Now, you have to deal with that electoral base.
You also have a black vote, which is not going to be swayed.
You say, well, you know, there's all this crime going on.
Blacks are the victims.
It's all true.
But then they're also going to vote for district attorneys like Alvin Bragg in New York.
They're not going to change their vote because, you know, they see the whites as being the enemy, not the black criminal.
So, I mean, you're not going to change that vote.
So, you have the white women, especially the college-educated, the black vote, and then you have also various minorities that are just going to go on voting for the Democrats.
And, you know, also a certain proportion of college-educated white men are going to do the same thing.
Right.
So, you know, it's... And then, of course, the media are just the lapdogs of the left.
So, you know, they're going to lie no matter what.
They can distort reality.
So, the Republicans have a very bad hand.
And I would also point out that right-of-center parties in Western Europe and in Canada, there is no right-of-center party anymore, except in a purely technical sense.
But in Western Europe, they're dealing with the same problems.
And that's why, if you noticed in my book on anti-fascism, I suggested the populists have a long road to hope.
They want to get somewhere in Europe.
I mean, you know, they can win 90 to 100 seats for the Rassemblement National, but then Macron's party is going to get a lot more, and then all those parties on the left are going to pick up votes.
Immigration, of course, does not help the situation because the immigrants vote overwhelmingly for the left.
Particularly the Muslims, but you still have to account for the other 90% of France.
And these people have been socialized by the woke left.
Yeah, one of the things that was especially interesting when we were talking about young white women is how many are now identifying as trans or some other different sexuality.
My theory, expressed to Jared Taylor, and now there seems to be some backing for it, is that a lot of them, and including some white males, are just seizing on these sorts of things because they're so beaten down with the idea of being white that They're willing to be anything else that will allow them to kind of opt out of being part of the oppressor class.
Now, whether that will last is a separate question.
I mean, even white homosexuals are now being told that they're actually part of the oppressor class still, and it doesn't do them any good.
Same thing with white women who claim they're feminists while they're actually still part of the oppressor class.
But certainly, it shows that with a lot of these categories, particularly these sexual categories, It really does seem to be that the media has created an identity and a lot of people have fit into this identity and they think they're free, they think they've made this decision, but you can actually see when the coverage changes and how something so fundamental as sexual identity, so core to what a person is, just flips on a dime.
And that raises certain questions about, well, Not only what's the point of democracy if apparently everything is just downhill from media coverage, but I mean, do we even have people who are capable of choice at this point?
Or are they just sort of outputs of media signals?
Yeah, that's a very good question.
My answer is generally no.
The whole idea of self-government is based on the premise that you have citizens.
Citizens traditionally were heads of family, right?
They were property owners.
Right.
The right to vote in a country like Switzerland, which was a true democratic republic, was very limited.
It was almost impossible to gain citizenship if you weren't a citizen.
And, you know, the heads of families, women did not vote, of course, until the 1970s, in 1973, although they were allowed to vote in some cantons and cantonal elections.
Men were supposed to also have arms, bear arms.
Now, this is a traditional republic, in my view, okay?
What you have in the United States is what I describe in my book, After Liberalism as Mass Democracy, organized by the administrative state.
This has nothing to do with self-government.
And the United States has been on this course for many, many decades.
What I find the most perplexing aspect of the situation is that you think human nature As it has been defined over the centuries would kick in that women would want to protect their families, their children.
No, they don't.
They're delighted to be able to have abortion, you know, up until the child comes to the birth canal.
They also don't mind having their kids chemically castrated in schools.
You know, that's fine.
They're usually more woke than any other group.
Men do not behave like men.
They're not only ground down, they're totally passive.
And I mean, there may be some hormonal change or something that accounts for this, but I'm certainly not seeing what I understood as human nature asserting itself in any of these social relations now.
Outside, by the way, of the black underclass, in which there are very definite gender roles.
These kinds of contradictions, liberal mass democracy seems willing to integrate and overlook very effectively.
I mean, just as with Islamic immigrants in Europe, those kinds of retrograde social views are not just tolerated, but encouraged, and you're not allowed to mess with that.
But if a white person, I don't know, asks a woman if they want to go on a date or something, he may find himself facing jail time for sexual harassment or whatever it is.
But the whites accept that.
Yes, they do.
They have no problem with that.
You know, I have a friend whom I exchange German notes every day.
He lives in Ravensburg, and he was telling me that he was looking around at, you know, men and a lot of younger Germans marry Ukrainians or Russians because they, you know, they're more like women.
The German women have been totally defeminized, and they look like men, many of them.
And he says you see this, you know, this nice-looking man with a woman who's like 300 pounds and tattooed, and he's watching the kids, who unfortunately look like the wife.
And he says that this is not an unusual occurrence, but he says you sort of wonder why men let themselves be ground down like this.
To me, this is the greatest mystery in what's now going on.
Well, I think there are two things at work.
One is, as you hinted at before, and this gets into a little weird territory, but I do think there is actually something biological going on, and it's not just Excuse me, it's not just media convincing people to hate themselves, because you do see certain processes taking place in a country like Japan, where young Japanese men simply won't have sex, won't reproduce, won't have any kind of social life, testosterone levels have plummeted.
All of these problems, by the way, much worse than anything that you're facing in any European country or North America.
And you can't blame this on On the media.
I mean, you can't honestly say that the media in Japan is anti-Japanese.
Maybe you can point to this story or that story, but it's not the same thing.
So clearly, there's something else going on that just has something to do with modern life, with, I don't know, the food we eat, the way we live, that's doing something to people, and it's not just media indoctrination.
You know, there is evidence of change.
And this to me is sort of a partial explanation of what's going on.
diminishing testosterone in white men.
I mean, I've seen all kinds of studies about this.
And this to me is sort of a partial explanation of what's going on.
Well, it does correlate with political views somewhat.
Yeah.
No, I would think it would.
There is a television program that I occasionally watch called Marriage at First Sight.
It's a ridiculous program and one of my kids said they don't want to be seen in the same room with me when I'm watching it.
It's, you know, it's sort of silly.
They arrange marriages and they're sort of are arranged on the basis of computer calculations.
But I've noticed in all these cases, the men are extremely timid and accommodating.
The women are absolute shrews.
You know, they abuse them, they mistreat them, and they throw them away, and you get divorced after 60 days.
And it's usually the woman who says, I don't want to be married to this This man, you know, he disagreed with me last week or something like that.
And this is something you cannot help but notice.
And this is even true of the blacks they have on.
I mean, the women are also dominant and the men seem very mousy.
In most cases.
But it seems to be sort of a general trend, but it's sort of brought home to you when you see, you know, how these marriages are arranged and how the men and the women behave very differently.
The women are much more aggressive than the men.
You know, it's interesting, too, how in response to this, at least when you had a little bit more free speech online, you did have this sort of I don't know, neo-masculine type movement where you had guys like Jordan Peterson at some level and then of course Andrew Tate where occasionally over the top indicate let's be blunt.
Sometimes it did devolve into just being anti-woman as such.
But, you know, these people, not Peterson, but Tate, was depersoned after some media complaints.
And you see sort of the same thing with a lot of these other types of movements.
Anything that's even telling guys something as simple as lift weights, eat right, get sleep, don't, you know, have some basic kind of self-respect.
These are things that, as you say, this would have just been taken as basic human nature and common sense even 20 years ago.
Now it's taken as a threat to the regime.
And this isn't really political at all.
I mean, this is basically just living a normal life, having a dignified private existence.
And even this can no longer be tolerated, it seems.
It's almost like mass democracy is turning us into a different kind of person, homo civilis, or something like that.
Yeah, and you can see it happening decade by decade, year by year.
And there's very little pushback against it.
Well, there is.
It's just to get banned.
Right.
I'm always watching Fox News.
They try to accommodate the left while claiming to be on the right.
And with some reluctance, they accepted gay marriage.
And I noticed that half the people on that program are gay, and some are married gays.
So, this became the concession.
Now they have Caitlyn Jenner, who is a Republican transgender.
And my question is, how long is this going to go on?
But what new concessions are you willing to make as the woke left becomes crazier and crazier?
And at some point you think you'd have to say no, we can't have any more, but they don't!
No, they don't.
Well, I think the only way to really look at it at this point, particularly with Black Lives Matter, we saw this where the site where George Floyd died became something of a religious pilgrimage where you actually had, you know, these left-wing mainline Protestants who have essentially deified non-whites, but you even had claims of like miracles and You know, shrines being built.
I mean, it is a religion, and I want to be careful there.
I'm not saying it's like a religion.
I'm saying it is a religion, full stop.
And the clerics who believe in it believe in this more than they believe in Jesus Christ, for example.
One of the things that I've been really struck by in the Soviet Union, of course, they used to, and then this was referenced in 1984, they would reference the kids who had denounced their parents to the regime as politically unreliable.
Now we're seeing this in the United States from both ways.
Parents denouncing their kids and kids denouncing their parents for being at the January 6th Ben's riot, whatever you want to call it, for in some cases, parents announcing the kids for having been at Charlottesville in 2017 for being a member of this group or that group.
I remember what there was a group that was arrested for doing a protest left, of course, would not have been arrested.
And, you know, the parents ran out and denounced their own kids.
And we also see this strange trend where even when their kid is murdered, The parent will come out and they're very anxious to assure everyone that while this is a sad event, it would be much worse if people got the wrong idea about what happened and started getting mad at illegal immigrants or something like that.
Right.
And the only way to look at this, I mean, you can either say like, well, people have just gone insane.
But instead, I see it as is somehow true to human nature in an older sense, in that it's Acceptance of martyrdom for an absurd creed.
I mean, it's like human sacrifice in some barbarous society of the past, or Christians letting their family members be torn to shreds by lions in the Colosseum because they think they're going to get paradise on the other end.
The thing which I don't understand, of course, is that most of these people don't believe in an afterlife.
They don't believe in an eternal reward.
It's a church with no salvation.
You know, I think you're right about this.
But as far as I can tell, there are two different groups of whites who buy into this woke nonsense or pretend to do it.
One of them I discuss in my book on multiculturalism and the politics of guilt.
And these are the people you're describing.
You know, the ones who seek martyrdom, who really believe in this junk.
And when I was working at what was a Protestant denominational college, I met a lot of people who were like this, you know, that they were atoning for the Holocaust, they were atoning for colonialism or something, something they were never involved in, but they felt necessary to atone.
And then when Black, you know, demonstrations against white privilege.
They would run and join this.
And I'm sure they would have sacrificed themselves for this cause.
They really believe this with, you know, definitely a sense of religious zeal.
On the other hand, there is a very large elite in the United States.
Um, that really doesn't believe this, but take advantage of it and use wokeness to punish other white people.
And this is what's striking.
The, uh, uh, driving last year through Westport, Connecticut, I noticed everybody had a Black Lives Matter sign.
They never see blacks, unless they come in to clean their houses.
But they hate the working class, you know, whom they think are bigots and hateful and racist and so forth.
And it's a way of sort of showing your social acceptability that, you know, you fit into the club by putting the Black Lives Matter sign up.
And then I had to go out to the Chronicles headquarter, which is in Bloomington, Minnesota, And so we were driving through St.
Paul, which has some beautiful neighborhoods, and all the nice houses were covered with Black Lives Matter signs.
Again, I don't think these people had much dealings with underclass blacks, but they were engaged, they were, A, virtue signaling, and that doesn't cost much, and B, I think they were expressing their contempt for white racists.
I always say this, I mean, you know, if you talk to these people, listen to the people on CNN.
I mean, they're always attacking the MAGA people and so forth.
This, I think, is an expression not of the desire for martyrdom, but it's just social snobbery, right?
And then, of course, you also get corporate capitalists who make money out of this.
Right.
So, I mean, you get all of these groups that are taking advantage of this.
I mean, it's like in the early church, you had people who suffered martyrdom.
And then, of course, once Christianity becomes the religion of the Roman Empire, then all the magistrates and the praetorian guard, everyone becomes a Christian.
And, you know, they take advantage of the new religion.
And I think we're seeing sort of the same thing in this post-Christian religion.
Right.
Right, right.
that there's some people that sacrifice or have to sacrifice themselves.
And then there's others who take advantage of the victory of woke ideas.
Right, right.
The question is, I mean, a multiculturalism, the politics of guilt,
which was arguably the first book that set me on the path and kind of woke me up to what was happening.
What we have now, and I want to bring in your discussion of anti-fascism,
it's interesting how the returning to this language of fascism, which, of course, hasn't meant anything in what, 70 years,
80 years in terms of being like a meaningful thread or even a
meaningful ideology in a coherent sense.
And the methods that are being used, and I hate to fall into the Dems are the real fascists type argument because I despise that.
It is nonetheless very hard not to notice that you have the state openly lobbying big tech, working with the media to censor dissenting opinion, dissidents being cut out of basic financial services.
Law enforcement will help certain classes of people.
They will not help other classes of people.
In fact, they will arrest other classes of people if they defend themselves.
So, in terms of what, if fascism means anything, in terms of the way it actually functions, it's closer to what the left is doing now, but everyone seems very comfortable with this as a means of quote-unquote anti-fascist defense.
Why has anti-fascism specifically become the ideology that is now animating everyone?
Do you think it's just because it's the only script they have, that going back to the World War II playbook is just still what we're relying on?
You know, I think one has to understand that the woke left, while it is different from the Marxist or the socialist or earlier left, sees itself as part of an historic left, in which the communists are in some sense their predecessors.
And the great struggles of the 1930s in what has been called the European Civil War between fascism, then finally Nazism, and communism is one that is alive and well now, according to this woke mentality.
Now, of course, a lot of it is total nonsense, as we know, because, you know, as I point out in my book, the communists were delighted to kill homosexuals.
Kei Guevara was a racist.
They were all sexist.
I mean, I could hardly see Stalin, you know, as a predecessor for Joe Biden.
Yeah, the Bolsheviks were much to the right.
But they see themselves in this kind of, and of course, fascism means Nazism.
They're not really thinking anymore of Francisco Franco, unless you're in Spain.
Mussolini, no one even knows who he is, unless you're some Italian leftist.
So, all fascism is reducible to Hitler.
And Hitler is reducible to Auschwitz.
So, if you disagree with the left, you want to kill all your enemies in an extermination camp or do something similar to that.
So, you know, Hitler and Nazism are the ultimate evils, right, against which the left must organize, as it did in the 1930s.
And this is a replay of the 1930s.
I think that the war against fascism, as I argue in the book, has always gone on, but for a long time it was eclipsed by the Cold War and the struggle against the Soviet Union, right?
But the left always wanted to fight fascism, even when there was no fascists around, there were very few of them.
But, you know, anyone who opposed the left became a fascist.
There's always this story that I tell that when I was young I had an older, it was an older man who was a friend of my parents and he was a member, sort of a communist front type.
He went to all these communist type organizations and he liked opera.
And he said he didn't listen to a particular singer anymore because he was a fascist.
And I kind of thought, well, how does that happen?
Well, he converted to Catholicism or something like that.
Oh, there you go.
He's a fascist.
But, you know, it shows how the definition keeps changing.
And it finally means, you know, by now it means that somebody who insists that only women can be birthing persons, right, that person is a fascist.
Right.
I mean, is this just infinitely changeable, though?
I mean, can they just keep saying that anything and everything is fascist, and then they draw on this?
I mean, it seems to me that World War II propaganda seems to be more intense now than it was in the years immediately after World War II.
I remember, I mean, just kind of a random thing, but there was some, it was like a show like Hogan's Heroes or something like that, where the Germans are portrayed as, you know, buffoonish villains as opposed to Absolute evil.
And it occurred to me that even something like that probably couldn't be on the air.
I mean, the people who actually fought the Nazis seem to be less paranoid about Nazism than some 19 year old in college today who's never actually met one or even really knows what the word means.
Well, I think there has been a kind of far leftist reorientation of the historical imagination.
As I tell people, back in the 1950s when I was in school in Connecticut, I mean, Robert E. Lee was a hero.
General President Eisenhower had a bust of him, you know, in the Oval Office.
He said he was his favorite American.
Today, his statues are being torn down.
But then so are Lincoln's statues for that matter.
Yeah, I mean, it is absolute madness.
The only statues we'll be seeing soon are, I don't know, Maxine Waters, Marion Barry, you know, these.
Oh, and of course, George Floyd statues all over.
But I mean, this is a way in which, you know, the left gets to play around with people.
You intimidate them, you ostracize them, you cancel them, then you force them into taking the most ridiculous positions in the name of political correctness.
And this is what we're seeing all around, around us.
And there is not that much fighting back.
One of the reasons is people really are being canceled by, you know, by woke corporate capitalism.
The media goes after them.
You cannot really get an academic job nowadays if you're, you know, right center in your politics.
It's impossible, unless you teach at some very conservative religious school.
That's an open question how long they'll keep the accreditation for those places.
That's true, because very often the accreditation institutions are on the far left.
Like the Mid-Atlantic Accreditation, which operates here.
They're on the very far left.
Right.
Even these schools are going to lose their accreditation.
Well, I think your book on antifascism and then, of course, multiculturalism's politics of guilt are invaluable to understanding the mindset of the woke left right now.
And after liberalism and then Sam Francis's book Leviathan and the writings of James Burnham explain a lot of how it actually functions.
But I don't want it to be just...
Maybe that's what the situation demands, but I revolt against it, that it's all just sort of bad news and that there hasn't been much resistance.
One could make the case that the reason they're reacting in this way is because they fear some kind of resistance, that they still have not gotten over 2016 in some sense.
Now, they will never let that happen again, which is why they censor the media so enthusiastically and why they're so paranoid about making sure that the wrong person can't even have a YouTube channel or something like that.
But the fact that they're talking in this way, the fact that the mask has come off in some way, that the steel underneath the velvet glove is now visible, that does suggest that they're afraid of something.
Are they right to be afraid or are they just being paranoid because their paranoia actually enhances their own power and allows them to justify more programs?
Yeah, I think that's true.
I also think some people are genuinely terrified.
They think that America is going to become a Nazi country.
I meet these people all the time.
Yeah.
They typically, this is true of Jews, Blacks, and others, whose leadership tells them these things, and the people are afraid.
Here's one point on which I disagree with Kevin McDonald about, you know, Jews trying to take power because it's a group interest or this.
What he overlooks is that many Jews actually think that Donald Trump is Hitler.
I mean, you know, their leadership tells them that and has been telling that for years and is, you know, is on the woke left.
Even more than it supports Israel.
Just look at black leadership in the United States.
So, I think there are people who believe this.
Kids who go to college, I mean, come home, you know, telling you that Donald Trump is the devil.
So, I think there are people who actually believe the lie and they're terrified.
You have to also take into account that the people who lie to you have a lot of power, and they control the national media, they control the educational system, they determine what goes into libraries, they determine, you know, what are best sellers, and so on.
I mean, there is an enormous power complex in this country, here and in every other Western country, which makes sure that the anti-fascist, woke, leftist party line is the only one that you hear.
What kind of resistance do you see forming against this, and is any meaningful resistance even possible?
I mean, as you point out, there are these nationalist parties in Europe, but of course, every time they get anywhere, every other party forms a cordon sanitaire to make sure they can't do anything.
Yeah, I think the country that has the best chance of succeeding is the United States.
I think in the United States, we have a much larger proportion and a much larger population, a much larger portion of the population and a larger population quantitatively that is committed to resisting.
No, other countries have, you know, a conservative movement that would probably please us more.
You know, they're generally sort of farther to the right.
They're very intellectual.
I know this is true in Germany.
I write for German newspapers, and there are some that have managed to survive, although they're under government surveillance.
They're not that far to the right.
Actually.
Right.
But, you know, the government goes after them because they have some connections to the AfD, politically, or in France, the Rassemblement National.
I mean, they're impressive people.
They're much more impressive than their American counterparts, you know, on Fox News, or people who are members of Conservatism Incorporated, or National Review, who don't impress me very much at all.
But they don't have much power.
There's also in the United States a very strong populist right, and I think it is doing better than it is doing in most countries, western countries.
And, you know, look at a country like Canada.
There is no opposition to the woke left that's even, you know, that exists in that country.
And there are northern neighbors, and they share much of the same historic culture.
In the United States, I think we're fortunate that there are some people battling.
I write for American Greatness at least once a week, and I do not agree with these people's Jaffaite, Straussians interpretations.
I have no differences with them on current events, politics.
I agree with everything they write.
They agree with me.
So, we do have opposition.
Then there are all these people who are considered to be on the far right.
And so, you know, together they do amount to some kind of resistance, whether you write for American Renaissance, whatever it is.
You know, and I think all these people are part of the resistance in a way that National Review is clearly not.
Right.
I mean, part of, you know, they're the party of leftist accommodation.
But, you know, I definitely think that there are websites like American Greatness, websites which are standing up.
And you see somebody, someone like Steve Bannon, You know, he comes across to me as a bit of a lout, he's sort of crude, but he does resist the left, you know, and a lot of people listen to his program and you have Newsmax, which, you know, is usually very good on these issues.
Somebody like Michelle Malkin, you know, you can count on her really, you know, going after the left, you know, and almost in blind fury.
Then we have people, you know, in our Congress like Marjorie Taylor Greene or some of these other people who are just spitfires, you know, and they'll get up and say what's on their mind.
So, we do have a resistance, in my view, just not strong enough right now, and it's not well organized enough.
One of the problems is the people who lead these resistances are the rhinos, the centrists, you know, people who really don't have much fight in them and are basically accommodationists.
We have a fellow who writes for Chronicles, Pedro Gonzalez, who always says, you have to imitate the left.
You have to be even more ruthless than they are.
Now, you're not going to get away with it because of the media, but I like his attitude.
I think you have to begin with a very belligerent view, not talk about this nonsense of bipartisanship.
You must find better leadership than somebody like Mitch McConnell.
Or some of these Republican senators.
But, you know, I think these are people, some of these people we call rhinos, are the ones that Biden has in mind as possible allies in his new world order.
They'll just cave in and they'll work with the administration, you know, if you give them some representation.
Or what is this fellow, Adam Kinzinger, the one from... Right, right.
Who now votes with the Democrats on all sorts of issues.
Yeah, it's interesting how many Republicans seem very willing to... they understand that the minority partner in this, they understand that they're essentially just collaborators, but they seem very comfortable with it.
Yes, they are.
And they've accepted that this is their role, and this is what they're going to do, and this is how they're going to spend their life, and I guess to some extent it's an easy life.
I mean, you get Right, exactly.
support. You never really have to put up with a lot of the things that ordinary Americans have
to put up with. And you're guaranteed a certain income and a certain audience, no matter what
you do. Because even if you lose your seat, you just go on NMSNBC and become a pundit or whatever
you do. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Or they can just change, like, what's his name?
the game.
Chris Wallace and there are other people, they sort of go over to CNN or Bill Kristol, right?
Although I don't think it was much before.
I mean, I don't think it was much of a transformation that he underwent to becoming a liberal Democrat.
The same with Max Boot.
And for neoconservatives, the important thing is having a global democratic foreign policy, right?
And the Democrats give it to them, you know, they just assume work with the Democrats, the way Robert Kagan and Crystal and others are doing.
Now, the question, I think, is what role does anti-white sentiment play in this new kind of anti-fascist state, which I think is anti-fascist mass democracy.
I mean, if we were trying to describe the regime, I think that would be probably the term we could use.
It's an anti-fascist mass democracy.
That's how it justifies itself.
That's how it operates.
And what holds it together in a lot of ways is being anti-white.
Now, one of the things that we've seen is it's no longer out of the Overton window to talk about anti-white discrimination.
You'll see mainstream conservatives pointing out like, hey, the government is doing things that are anti-white.
They are explicitly discriminating against whites.
They'll hurry to assure us that they're also discriminating against Asians because that's like the only way you can legitimize it.
But at least they notice what's happening.
The question is, Are they willing to support anyone who will fight against it?
Now, I would say the answer right now is no, but five years ago, they wouldn't have even noticed what is happening.
Do you see any signs of hope on that front that they're at least noticing who's being pushed around here?
Right.
I'd suggest you read a piece that I wrote on the Chronicles blog about the dispute between Douglas Murray, whom I do not particularly like.
You know, he's usually an inveterate neo-con most of his career.
He's a big gay activist and so forth.
But he went after Patrick Deneen, who was the He claims to be a Catholic integralist.
Right.
And Dineen will always duck issues that can cost him his position or, you know, his social prestige.
And he attacked Douglas Murray for saying that anti-white racism is a dominant characteristic of the woke left.
He said, we shouldn't even talk about this.
My question is, why are we not supposed to talk about it if it's a dominant characteristic of our enemies, you know?
And do we really think it's okay for people to go online saying, you know, I can hardly wait for the white race to disappear.
I wish I could exterminate every white male, which is what Sarah Jung said.
She was an editor at New York Times.
Did not lose her job.
No, of course not.
I quote her in my book on anti-fascism.
Why is this okay?
You know, I mean, the left will allow itself to say anti-white racist things that go beyond anything that I can see in Stormfront.
I mean, they're absolutely fanatically anti-white.
Why are we never allowed to mention this?
You also are not allowed to mention that these Black Lives Matter are anti-Semitic.
Because all the Jewish liberals want to, you know, support them.
And I think what happens is a game in which these utterly vicious racist bigots, you know, are given a free pass because they're beating up on white people.
And the white upper class, you know, the white woke upper class doesn't care because they think they're beating up on other white people, not on them.
You know, it's the other whites they're going after.
Well, I mean, you know, they sound exactly like, you know, like, like, like racist Nazis, but they can get away with it.
And the conservative movement will, by the way, when the conservative movement attacks them, I noticed they say, and Martin Luther King would not.
Right, right, right.
This is utter nonsense.
I mean, Martin Luther King was always denouncing white people and thought that, you know, quotas were fine and all Barry Goldwater was a Nazi.
You could say he may have had some kind of just cause, but he was almost as hysterical as these people are.
You could simply say it's wrong.
It's wrong, it's terrifying, and it also is used to incite riots against white people, which the
media think are fine, they have no problem, until CNN gets invaded. But you know, I think this
is a national disgrace, and I think the conservative movement should be ashamed of
not going after this more frontally.
Well, this is the question, especially I, writing for American Renaissance, obviously have a vested
interest in this, which is white advocates should meet this on this chosen battleground,
as Sam Francis said, we're being attacked as whites, we should respond as whites.
Now some people may disagree with that for moral reasons, maybe they've accepted too much of the left's worldview, but there are some whom I'll Choose to believe or behaving in good faith who will say, well, we should oppose what's happening, but we shouldn't do it purely in racial terms.
We should talk about the state.
We should talk about, I don't know, the managerial elite.
We should talk about Biden dividing the country, but we shouldn't talk as whites because that's what they want us to do somehow.
Do you think that whites should be defending themselves as whites or should they be shying away from that kind of characterization?
You know, the same question, by the way, was asked about Nazi persecution of Jews, whether you're allowed to say that Hitler doesn't like Jews, or whether you have to say that he doesn't like, I don't know, Christians or people living in Western countries or something like that, or he doesn't practice parliamentary democracy.
If you are being targeted, you have every right to respond.
Now, what makes this situation a bit more complex, in my view, is that many whites, white elites, are supporting this.
So, it is not quite the same as when Hitler went after Jews, because, you know, here the race haters and the race baiters against the whites are being supported and subsidized by white people, which makes the situation much more complex.
and I think one has to bring out this problem and discuss the complexity of this problem.
And you can't just say these are a few race traitors because there are lots and lots of them,
you know, who are part of this world culture.
But to say that we will not mention the fact that whites are being targeted,
in some cases for extermination, is ridiculous.
I mean, that's exactly what is happening.
And I think this should be mentioned.
Another thing that bothers me is the unwillingness to say that, you know, people living in these black neighborhoods who are being attacked usually vote for the political party that has caused the problem.
They vote for these horrible district attorneys who don't keep people in jail.
They do not seem at all, you know, offended by black criminals who are preying on them.
They hate white Republicans, or even black Republicans.
And, you know, they are to blame for their own situation.
It is not something called the state.
It is not even George Soros who is to blame.
Because Soros is in no way to blame.
Because if Soros gave money to some black Republican, the other blacks wouldn't vote for that person anyhow.
Right.
So, I mean, it's absolutely ridiculous to blame Soros.
It's the people living there who vote for Lori Lightfoot, you know, and de Blasio and all that.
They are to blame for their own misery.
They've caused their own misery.
And the difficulty that, you know, law enforcement now faces in dealing with high crime.
Well, it's certainly true.
If you look at something like what's happening in Jackson, Mississippi, where they no longer have drinkable water and people are there, oh, this is an issue of systemic racism.
The city is 80 percent black.
Well, the current mayor's father, I believe, was an avowed black nationalist, not black nationalist in the sense that, oh, he was extreme, but in the sense that he wanted a separate black nation.
I think it was even called the Republic of New Africa with a K, something rather hilarious like that.
The last seven or eight mayors have been black, whites have no political power whatsoever in this town, but somehow whites are still to blame in this case, I guess, for moving away.
But of course, had they stayed there, they also would be to blame because it would be gentrification and white supremacy, although I dare say the water would still work.
But when you have something like this, even something as No.
basic as being unable to keep the water system going, it's not going to change black voting
behavior.
There's no threat that Democrats are going to lose the next election or even that the
current mayor is going to lose the next election.
No, I mean, if anything, he'll probably benefit.
You know, I agree.
I think some of these voting blocs are absolutely embedded, you know, in this.
And I think in the case of the blacks, it's loathing for white Christian Republicans or something like that.
And also for blacks who are Republicans, because they're seen as, the way Larry Elder was, as a tool of white supremacists.
You're not going to change that perception.
I mean, it's ridiculous to try.
If you want more votes, go somewhere else.
But the reason they don't go somewhere else is the so-called conservatives don't want to be accused of racism.
No one has ever explained to me why black racism is somewhat better than white racism.
As a matter of fact, there's no control on black racism at this point, and it's encouraged by the government and by the media.
And it's rather hilarious, too.
It's a lot more crude and fantastic than what they term as white racism.
They'll see white quote-unquote racists and they'll say, well, look at these IQ charts and everything else, whereas the blacks will have these religious cults and all sorts of insane theories about where white people come from and everything else.
But this is perfectly fine.
It doesn't stop them from getting university jobs.
It doesn't stop them from being praised on cable news.
It doesn't stop them from being social justice activists and getting millions of dollars in various foundations.
But I think at the end of the day, the reason this is the case is that white elites are supporting it.
Yeah.
And the question is, why do white elites support this?
And I don't think that they don't believe they're going to suffer from it.
Other whites are going to suffer.
Whites who they despise.
Right.
Right.
I think that's true.
I think that is what explains a lot of it.
And to some extent, we have to ask ourselves whether it's whether the right or not.
I mean, if you're a rich White South African, say.
And you decided to hand over power to the ANC in the early 90s.
Is your life better now than it would have been otherwise?
I mean, yes, the cities are disasters.
Yes, the government doesn't work.
Yes, you have no political power.
But if you have enough money, you can protect yourself physically from a lot of what's going on.
And when you travel abroad, you don't have people yelling at you anymore.
You don't have to deal with boycotts.
I mean, in some ways you could argue that your life is better.
Because you're more open to global economic opportunities.
And yes, the country suffered, but what's that to you if you've already disconnected from it psychically?
Yeah, South Africa is a good case of that because the crime rates are so high in places like Johannesburg.
I don't know where these rich people are going to hide in the end, you know.
And the same thing is happening in the United States.
I mean, the crime rates have exploded in places like New York and L.A.
and Philadelphia.
And at some point, I think that this is going to affect the white, rich, liberal population in New York on the Upper East Side.
I mean, how they can isolate themselves, even with their guards, from what's going on all around them and what they support and give money to.
The question that I want to end with is that given that there are people who are meeting this challenge in racial terms, given that there is something of resistance, what should be the strategy going forward?
What should be the end that we're pursuing?
I mean, what should we say is our defining goal, our Sorellian myth, if you will, in terms of inspiring people to action?
And what, if any, signs of hope are there?
Well, one thing I would not do, and this is sort of an oblique or circuitous way of answering your question, one thing I would not do is sound like a rhino or sound like Mitch McConnell or Jonah Goldberg or National Review.
I think it is very important to state one's position strongly, emphatically, You know, the left is going to attack you anyhow.
I mean, they need an enemy.
The left needs an enemy to fight against.
And the enemy was actually Mitt Romney at one time, right?
Right.
I mean, you know, you don't need Trump.
I mean, you can pick a rhino as an enemy.
What you need is a strong, determined right.
But it also has to be very careful about what it does, because you're fighting with an obvious disadvantage.
The other side has all the assets.
They have the Secret Service, they have the government, they control the media, and they control education.
And they have a network of support in other Western globalist countries.
So, you have to sort of look at what they have, and then you have to strategize about what would be the most effective resistance.
But by resistance, I mean a willingness to state your position.
I mean, you can't hide.
On the other hand, you can't go crazy and you can't sound like, you know, Greg Johnson talking about Jews or something or Hitler.
But, I mean, you have to be careful in what you say.
But you certainly have to emphasize the dangers of black nationalism, anti-white racism, the danger of the population, what the cities are becoming.
The border has to be... This is one thing, by the way, that Fox is done right.
You show the border, the poorest border, drugs coming across people, and so they're being shipped in basically to vote for the Democratic Party.
That's why they're being brought here.
There's no other reason.
And you have to make this clear that this is why, and you have to keep emphasizing the dictatorship that the Democrats are setting up.
Do you want to live under a woke dictatorship?
They're going to get 80 something thousand more people working at the IRS, you know, to go after their opposition.
You know, this does look very much like the beginnings of a totalitarian state.
And you have to, you say we are fighting totalitarianism.
And the totalitarianism is entirely on the left.
I think you have to point to what Dineen doesn't want to discuss, which is the anti-white racism.
You have to point to the totalitarianism.
Inflation, I don't know whether inflation is going to get you many votes.
You think it would, but I don't think it works anymore.
No, no.
Well, I mean, religious beliefs trump economics, and so if you have people willing to denounce their own children, I think they're willing to put up with a 5% increase in the cost of living if it makes them feel superior.
No, I think that's true.
I think ideology, in this case, trumps Trump's physical safety, economics, everything else, you know, having transitioning in his elementary school class.
Right.
Ideology is the most important factor here.
And the country is ideologically divided.
We know where the left stands.
I'm not quite sure where the right stands, but I think there is a populist right whose instincts are good.
And I think it's a matter of mobilizing, galvanizing these people.
Against the woke state and its assets.
It's going to be a long, hard fight.
I'm an old man.
I won't live to see the end of it.
But I think the United States does have a chance of, you know, of overcoming this.
I don't I don't see any hope in a country like Germany or Canada.
Well, the good news is that a lot of these countries are nothing more than colonies of D.C.
anyway.
So if we did win here, a lot of those other things would fall apart.
Yeah.
No, I agree.
There's a German word, a satellite country, that's what they are.
Germany is an American satellite, it doesn't exist as a sub-nation.
No, no, Europe is...
And that's one of the interesting things about all this is that I recall that, you know, early on with the European New Right and a lot of American right wingers looking to Europe.
I mean, one of the first things you learn is how America is basically responsible for a lot of the problems that Europe is dealing with.
It's just now we're inflicting it on ourselves, too.
But as you said, there are some reasons for hope.
And I think we do have a Another reason for hope is I think that the alliance of the left is precarious.
They have groups that hate each other that are all united against white Christian males or something like, you know, whatever they perceive as the enemy.
But I cannot see Muslims coming into Europe, you know, really aligned with lesbians.
Right.
I mean, some of it's so ridiculous.
There's a black nationalist, you know, being allied to feminists.
These are ridiculous alliances that are only held together by hatred.
They really have no other common interest.
Yeah.
And unfortunately, that is also why they're going to have to keep ramping up the hatred.
But of course, the more they ramp it up, the more people notice and the greater chance we have for people to respond.
All right.
Well, I think that about wraps it up.
Thank you very much, sir.
And I think your book on anti-fascism now, if I had to pick one book that people should read now as indicative of the current moment and something they really need to understand, I would say it's yours.
And I want to thank you again for responding to my review.
And I want to thank you for your fine book review, which is circulating.
Thank you, sir.
I appreciate that.
And it was a real pleasure to read and it was a real pleasure to talk to you today.
So thank you very much, sir.
I really appreciate it.
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