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Aug. 16, 2022 - Radio Renaissance - Jared Taylor
59:43
Against the Current
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Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to this special edition of Radio Renaissance.
It is my pleasure to have in the studio with me none other than Greg Johnson.
He happens to be on the East Coast, and we took this opportunity to get together and have a chat with one of, I think, the really giant figures in the white advocacy movement today.
Greg Johnson has been professionally involved in standing up for our people Fearlessly, courageously, and in the most intellectually unimpeachable way for 15 years, at the very least.
You probably all know him as the editor of Countercurrents, one of the great websites for those who have any interest in our people, our culture, our history, and what we can do to save those things.
He's also the author of, I think, many important books, Of which I think pride of place in my mind goes to white identity politics, but also the White Nationalist Manifesto is a wonderful statement of what we face and what we must do.
And then the sometimes overlooked In Defense of Prejudice.
These are only three that I will mention.
He is the author of countless articles as well.
And so, Mr. Johnson, it is my pleasure to welcome you.
So glad that you can be with us today.
Thank you, Jared.
It's a real pleasure to be here.
Yes.
Now, one thing that I would like to talk about, and this is one of the things that you have certainly thought about as fruitfully as anyone in our movement, is why has become such a fashion to despise white people and their history and what they stand for?
And I was particularly conscious of this when I was doing my most recent video, and it was about Pakistanis and Indians.
These are first, second generation people who waltz into our country and immediately cotton to the idea that white people seem to be like these perverse dogs.
The harder you kick them, the harder they wag their tails, or at least that is the pose that they're supposed to take.
They have immediately figured out that they can waft the top of American society by assuming these crazy ideas about whites.
They come from, well I won't use Donald Trump's term for them, but what I might euphemistically refer to as dung heap countries, and then they come and literally defecate all over ours.
And I know that you have thought about this question of why not just foreigners, not just non-whites, but whites themselves have this outspoken contempt for the people of their own race.
So could you just tell me some of your observations about where this comes from?
Why it's so fashionable?
I know that one of the things that has struck me is the way Asians, Asians who for generations have been fairly sensible about trying to become ordinary Americans, who have been probably the least racially conscious, racially aggressive group in the United States, They too are now adopting this idea, so that if blacks are attacking Asians, that it's not because, it's not black people's fault, it's white people who did it to them, and that these people are agents of white supremacy.
Where does, I know this is a big question, it's a really rather open-ended question, but give me your thoughts on this phenomenon of such widespread contempt for people who I think, in many respects, have been the most generous, open-minded, and welcoming people in the history of the world.
Well, let's talk about non-white hatred of whites, and then we can talk about white hatred of whites, white self-hatred, or white hatred of bad whites.
In the case of non-whites, you can really categorize them into two categories.
One are the The people who are sort of subpar, the troubled populations, the ones that are overrepresented on welfare and in the prisons.
And then the others are the the upwardly mobile, actually very productive groups.
And that would include Asians and South Asians as well.
We we are not getting South Asian untouchables.
We're getting South Asian upper caste people.
They come here.
And they can do very, very well in our society.
So why do they feel the need to gravitate towards ungrateful, hostile, anti-white attitudes?
Why can't they be model minorities like the Asians used to be?
East Asians used to be the model minority.
South Asians looked like they would become another model minority.
In some ways they were, but they've been here a lot less long, and they seem to be
quickly adapting to the anti-white animus in our society.
And that's even true of South Asians who were on the right.
They're using they're using political correctness to move up the social hierarchy.
We can see that in the UK right now.
We can see that in Republican and conservative circles right now.
They're very, very willing to use political correctness as a tool of upward mobility.
Well, I certainly see that on the left, but I don't see it on the right.
I mean, Nikki Haley, for example.
Nikki Haley.
One of the few Asians who doesn't constantly strike this anti-white pose.
Well, but here's the thing.
She doesn't have to because she knows that within the Republican Party, white Republicans are so Race whipped, basically, that they are going to constantly spotlight people like her and push people like her forward.
So even if she doesn't constantly agitate for anti-white ideas, she still benefits from the fact that Republicans are beaten down by these ideas and are trying to show their bona fides by pushing forward people like her.
And then within the conservative media, there are various East Asian, upwardly mobile East Asian types.
And of course, they benefit from this as well.
There's the old joke, what do you call the one black man at the Republican event?
The keynote speaker.
Now, increasingly, that's becoming an Asian thing as well.
And they're not just keynote speakers.
There are people who are involved in funding and organizing.
They're moving in and and taking over and of course the the recent upheavals in the British government have been pushing forward this Sunak character and he's being promoted in part to show that the the Tories are are just as anti-racist as labor.
Oh yes, that's really the thing that we must all be, is fundamentally anti-racist.
And if we can find a few non-whites who are not full of absolute venom for us, then we can press them forward.
And if someone, one of the non-whites will say, America's not really a basically racist country.
Oh my gosh, we have to bow down and kiss their feet.
Yeah.
As to prove once again that we are not racist, no matter how conservative we might be.
Right.
But you know there is, I believe she's the interior minister in Britain now, somebody named... Patel.
Patel.
She's actually pretty good.
The way she wants to keep these illegals out, send them all to East Africa, but I You're absolutely right.
They find that if they mouth the right slogans, then the so-called conservatives will wrap their arms around them and cuddle them and just push them right to the top.
So they can go either way.
But it seems to me that, at least in the United States certainly, and likewise in Britain as well, the South Asians have really gone to the left.
Yeah.
Which to me also may bespeak a kind of Envy and jealousy of the kinds of societies we have made that at some level, deep in their bones, they know they could not have made.
I don't know.
It's hard to read people's minds.
Well, even in a country like Pakistan or Bangladesh, which is nominally Muslim, if you look at the actual social structure, what underlies it are tribes and castes that are largely impermeable Uh, these are not societies that have any form of upward mobility.
Everyone's pretty much frozen in place from birth.
Uh, they look at our societies and they see opportunities for amazing upward mobility.
And that's one of the things that attracts them as, as immigrants, uh, from their society to ours.
They can enjoy a much better standard of living, a higher status, et cetera, in our societies.
Uh, and yet.
What they bring with them is very much a caste consciousness, a tribal consciousness, and also one of the ways that these tribal and caste groups relate to one another in South Asia is through deception, manipulation, robbery.
These are low trust societies, and therefore they bring this idea that they're going to help their own clan.
With them.
They're they're very nepotistic.
They're going to bring their own people in you do see patterns of nepotism like this In in their businesses and so forth and in academic departments where they become prominent and so forth they bring these ideas with them and yet they realize that if they go hard on the Anti-white stuff.
Basically the Frankfurt School kind of stuff.
The idea that this is a system of white supremacy and that we have to constantly search our unconscious for possible racism and things like that.
We have to be on the back foot to these people at all times.
They realize that softens us up In their upward mobility and what the left has become really since the Second World War is not so much a pro workers movement as a movement that stresses upward mobility within capitalism for previously marginalized groups.
And these groups tend to have dual ethical codes, so they help their own and they're very collectivist within their groups.
And yet they find that it's advantageous for their groups in our society to demand that we be maximally individualist, maximally open to them, maybe even a little guilty and maybe even give them privileges for being outsiders.
And that eases their rise on the greasy pole of success in the West.
Well, there's no question about it.
They come here, as I say, first or second generation.
And of course, they still benefit from affirmative action preferences.
They will go to these fancy Ivy League schools on big scholarships and swan into plum jobs in law.
Or in journalism or academia and then they turn right around and tell us what a vicious white supremacist exclusionary society we are.
Now I think you're absolutely correct if they wish to get ahead in this country and as you say this is really a country that is remarkably open to talent and always has been.
They determined what are the things that you're supposed to say to really get ahead.
And it's very clear.
If you're going to be writing for the New York Times, if you're going to be appearing on television, or if you're going to get a nice plum job at Princeton, there are certain things you better say.
And they have been smart enough to figure that out right away.
And if that comes with an absolutely shameless, utterly reprehensible lack of gratitude for a country that has let them in as strangers and outsiders, and has promoted their rise to the top, well then so be it.
They seem to have absolutely no shame about that.
Absolutely.
It really is a dual ethical code.
They look upon Western individualists, anti-racists, etc.
as just suckers, as marks that they can play.
Well, you know, that's a good question.
You wonder if they ever sit around together.
I can imagine Oh, I used to imagine this for years.
Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton sitting around slapping each other on the back saying, these poor white chump suckers.
They are so easy to play the fool.
I wonder if these South Asians don't do the same thing.
Or to what extent do they believe this?
They have swaddled this idea that despite all the advantages that we have showered on them, This really is a country of just seething racism and they have gotten to the top just through pure remarkable ability and genius.
I just don't know.
I'd love to talk to one of these people.
I think it falls on a spectrum.
I think the more self-aware ones realize what the hustle is and the less self-aware ones just Believe it on some level.
They're told this around the dinner table.
They're told this 15 minutes after they get off the plane.
Yeah, yeah.
And they just accept that this is the way it is, and it's advantageous to them, so why would they ever question it?
Well, that's true.
Why would people question something that white people in the highest levels of authority tell them is true, which turns out to be wonderful for them?
Yeah.
So I suppose we can't not expect them to be non-conformist or to regard their own selves more objectively than anyone else.
And so they swallow this stuff and then they sure spit it back out to us in the most hostile, unpleasant ways.
This reminds me of what you just said of a conversation I had with a Korean guy who was a lawyer.
This was back when I actually had some employment doing business with law firms.
And we had a number of frank conversations and I said to him, well has it ever occurred to you that white people might not wish to become a minority in their own country?
What would you, you're from Korea, how would Koreans feel about that?
He says, gosh, I never thought of that.
And here's a guy who had gone to the best schools, gone to law firms.
It had never occurred to him that white people might not care for this.
But then why would it?
And so perhaps because all of these immigrants who come in here And the best authorities in the entire country, the churches, the media, government, is all telling them that they're living in this horrible, hostile society.
Why wouldn't they believe it?
Especially when they don't suffer from it one bit and they profit from it.
Yeah, so, I don't know.
So, ultimately, as in all of these questions, I can't help but blame our utter stupidity and gullibility for this.
Now, of course, there are people who have tried to manipulate this, seen through our weaknesses and manipulate it.
Ultimately, we have permitted this to happen.
Well, it ends when we say no.
Yes, yes.
So, the longer we don't say no, the longer it will persist.
We do have agency in this, and we can end it.
It just is a matter of understanding that this is a losing game.
And then screwing up the moral courage to a sticking point where we simply say no.
If we say no, it ends.
Well, the real problem here, of course, becomes the whites who go along with this.
And that, to me, is really the ultimate mystery.
There are outsider whites who really don't have the same sense of native-born, old stock whites who built the country, who would presumably have a loyalty to it.
But even some of those Gentile groups.
Do adopt this contempt for their own people, their own history.
This to me is really the key mystery of really America since the 20th century, the West since the 20th century.
What is it about this repulsive view of their own people that is possibly attractive to it?
And of course, now that that's become the dominant way of thinking, then This is conformity, and as you have so often noticed or observed, conformity is really one of the governing features of human nature.
And people, if this is what they must say to get to the top, that's what they will say.
But to be in the process of building a society in which their own children will be minorities and despised minorities, this is to me the real riddle of the history of the West.
Well, my thoughts on this really are most informed by America and American history, because I am an American.
My first ancestors came here in 1618 to Virginia.
1618?
Well, you've beat mine out by about 14, 15 years.
You're more American than I am.
Well, they weren't anything special.
My first ancestor was an indentured servant in Jamestown.
There was there was a hope in America, especially when the Republic was created, that we could leave aside the status society of the old world.
And have a different kind of society.
The much discussed claim in the Declaration of Independence, which was never a legal document, a binding document in the United States.
It was just one of many declarations that were put out at that time.
The states had their own, their colonies had their own declarations.
This idea that all men are created equal.
This was not a blanket statement of equality.
What it was is a rejection of the idea of hereditary rank.
And there's no discussion of universal equality in the Constitution, but there is a rejection of hereditary honors and rank.
America, at least by a significant number of Americans, was to be a classless society, a casteless society.
And even before the founding, though, we saw that that wasn't the intention of all the people who came here.
Many of the people who came here wanted to recreate elements of the caste society of England, primarily of England, because that's where they were coming from.
Some of them are younger sons from noble families who weren't going to inherit a big estate in in Europe.
So they came to build a big estate or a simulacrum of that in the Americas in the colonies.
There was a battle from the beginning to separate out different kinds of white people.
And this was a reflection of the caste system in England and what happened, though, is that because there was such a pressure to get rid of hereditary cast and establish an individualistic society in America.
That didn't.
Speak to certain human desires.
I mean, everybody wanted to be free.
People wanted to be able to have positions open to talents to rise or fall based on individual merit.
Yet.
All of life can't be a competition for status.
People want to rest secure in certain things.
People want to have some security in a sense of who they are.
And in the old world, where people were born into a particular place in society, that couldn't be taken away from them.
They might have more or less money, but they can't cease to be a member of this particular Aristocracy or peasantry or whatever there was a certain amount of security there.
Whereas in America, we're individuals.
We can't fall back on inherited status and that means it's going to be a great deal of insecurity in the in the populace.
And I think this is something that Tocqueville talked about a democracy in America.
And I thought that was very very interesting because It's the basis for arguing.
The logic of why a society that's functionally very individualist was even at the time Tocqueville was observing it in the first part of the 19th century was also more conformist.
Then European societies, there was less liberty of thought, even though there was greater liberty of individuals to make their own way in the world.
And the question is, well, why in an individualist society are people so conformist?
Well, if you're upwardly mobile, if you have ambitions, aspirations to do well in the world, and your status is not inborn, it has to be constantly Maintained renegotiated with every transaction with other people that makes you insecure So, how do you become more secure?
Well, you try and fit in you try and get on with other people and if you want to be in the upper stratum of the society You find a way of conforming to their mores the way they talk the way they think and so forth and so there was a noticeable conformism that went Hand in hand with that was organically connected with American individualism and really what it was.
Is an attempt to reject egalitarianism classlessness and reinstitute the the securities that people had in the in the old world.
And of course the irony is is that the people who now run things and who are the most snobbish and the most desiring to kick down at the bad whites and separate themselves from the bad whites happen to be the people who profess to be the most egalitarian.
It's very peculiar.
Yes, yes.
That's an interesting thesis about the way the United States works.
Of course, for those who were not conformist, for generations we had the safety valve of going west.
Yeah.
And that was an important part of the American psyche too, so that those who were not going to conform There was a place for them to go and to be wild and to be different.
And the closing of the frontier, that really did have something of a psychological effect on Americans.
I recall reading once, this may or may not be true because the frontier has been gone for so long, but that it's people who have moved west who statistically are more likely to commit suicide.
That that's the end of the road.
They are dissatisfied.
Here's a place to go.
And then that is once they've gotten there, there's no place else to go.
I mean, it's not by a huge amount, but that was one that is sometimes the precursor of people who just give up.
But this whole question of egalitarianism in the United States, it's true that of course, well, when Jefferson wrote those words, he had absolutely no, he could not have imagined how they have been twisted since.
And my favorite interpretation of those words is, after all, this was a document that was written by the colonists addressed to King George.
And H.L.
Mencken did what he called a burlesque translation into English.
of the Declaration.
Have you ever read it?
No, I should read it.
Oh, it's a marvelous, hilarious thing.
He goes through the whole thing.
But when he gets to the all men are created equal, his translation into English is, well, you and me are as good as the next fellow, maybe more so.
Yeah, that's good.
So he's saying this is cocking a snook at King George.
We are in a position to tell you to go to hell.
Right.
And as I understand Jefferson himself never considered the document to be other than a list of reasons.
He never considered it to be any expression of a philosophical anything.
Right.
Here's why we are clearing out.
And he lists the reason and a lot of sort of fancy preamble.
But anyway, How then this turns into a loathing of their own civilization?
That is yet another question.
Now, of course, your ancestors and mine made the terrible mistake of thinking they were going to get cheap labor.
By bringing Africans into the country.
And that established a caste.
A caste that disturbed so many of the founders to begin with.
Here we have all these ideas of liberty, and here we have these people that are enslaved.
When people talk about that as the original sin, it was an original sin, but not in the way they think of it.
It was a terrible blunder.
Just an unforgivable blunder on the part of the people who got the country going.
But I've racked my brains to try to think of any people or period in history in which the leading members or the most influential members of a society have so diligently tried to tear apart the psychological or historical or even biological ethnic underpinnings of the society that came before them.
Maybe the French Revolution, maybe the Russian Revolution.
Those things did not, of course, last.
Of course, we've been only doing this for a certain amount of time, but this is really a process that just seems so utterly and completely unnatural.
Well, One of the most interesting books I read that shaped my thinking about a lot of political issues and historical issues was a book by Brooks Adams called The Law of Civilization and Decay.
He was the brother of Henry Adams, descended from presidents of the United States, a very, very impressive figure.
And in there he talks about the Romans and I excerpted a big chunk of his discussion of the Romans and put it up at Countercurrence if anybody wants to read it.
And he was writing in the 19th century from the point of view of a Republican populist.
And he talks about how the Roman system gradually liquidated the Roman people.
The Empire went from being a community to being a kind of system or a kind of racket where you had people on the top who had taken people of their own flesh and blood and culture and turned them into this formidable military force and conquered all these other peoples.
Well, what happens when you conquer other peoples?
There's a logic of Empire.
The logic of empire is that you're willing to spend the lives of some of your own people, those people, to purchase the lands of foreigners.
And then what do you do?
Well, you garrison the foreign lands with some of your people, the ones who survived the war, and you might try and co-opt some of the elites from the conquered.
bring some of them back. You might actually start thinking that maybe because the natives
occasionally get restless when the bread ships don't show up, the grain ships don't show up,
and things like that, you might want to garrison your capital with some foreigners who are more
loyal to you and have no ethnic ties to the people that they're there to keep down.
No compunction about putting them down if need be.
Yeah, exactly.
This is the kind of pattern that empires have.
And so once you've got an empire and you've got a very self-conscious ruling caste that wants to hold on to its power and expand it, you've got a machine that is opposed to the ethnic interests of all parties.
The people who created the empire, Ethnic interests of the neighboring peoples that have to worry about being absorbed by it.
And so you create a system where race replacement becomes a policy of state.
It becomes a tool of Statecraft of imperial statecraft, you know, once you start taxing the peasants so that they're or sending their sons to die, so their population starts cratering, you just bring in foreigners to work the soil.
And the Romans undertook this process Under the late Republic before the Empire even even arose.
So there is a kind of pattern of imperial statecraft that mandates race replacement and you can't really replace these people.
And fully embrace them as your own, right?
You've got to look down on them.
You've got to have some causes for snobbery, some kind of ideological prop, some reason why you can square this with your conscience.
And I do think that that's a pattern that's taking place in America today.
There's more to it though.
Yes, there's more to it.
And to produce a couple of counterexamples, what you're talking about the Roman Empire, that was in the process of empire building.
Whereas the French or the British, they built their empires without engaging in that process.
And the replacement came after the end of empire for completely different reasons.
The backwash of empire.
Yes.
It was not the building of empire that made these things happen.
So it does not have to happen that way.
And interestingly enough, the Spanish Empire is only now beginning to get that kind of backwash.
Perhaps because Spain at the time of the big non-white migrations into Europe or the northern world was not as attractive, not as wealthy.
But now you are getting some of these Hispanics who are moving into Spain, wanting to live there.
But it doesn't have to be that way.
And it is our current dilemma.
I mean, there are many, many lessons to be learned, of course, from the Greeks and the Romans.
And just as a bit of a side note, I've just read an excellent book by Guillaume de Rocher.
I don't know if you know, but it's called The Ancient Ethnostate.
And he has, very conveniently, read through all of these Greek sources with an eye to picking out what are useful lessons for those of us today.
I think that's a wonderful service that he's done for us.
I plan to write a review of that book.
It's no coincidence that speaking Latin and Greek were considered the marks of educated people up until, what, a hundred years ago, maybe even later than that.
So there's lots to be learned there, but it is the failures, it's the failures in more recent times, empire or not empire.
And to me, Europeans are, at least Western Europeans, many of them have succumbed despite empire.
Yes, the Scandinavians, for heaven's sake, they're just as suicidal as anyone that you could claim had colonized the Belgian Congo and slaughtered them all.
They seem to be, if anything, even more susceptible.
I do think America was the laboratory, the hatchery of this anti-white Yeah, consciousness.
And I do think that it was grafted on to certain traits of American society.
And that includes, I think, this, if it's not political, empire building this sort of analog, the it's the plantation building.
The the desire to live in a big house with the colonnade to be surrounded by people of a different race who are subservient to you and to treat people of your broader community who don't have as much money as you as scum and look down on you.
I mean that that is something that this ideology I think has grafted on.
This is this is how we can get the left and the right.
Working together to keep the borders open and so forth.
There's there's definitely something like that, but there's new things that have happened.
Certainly.
I do think that part of it is this mutation of Marxism in the mid 20th century into basically an anti white ideology that.
Encourages upward mobility or clears away impediments to the upward mobility of previously marginalized groups.
Of course, those marginalized groups happen in part because of the.
Imperial desire to take in new people's right to and in America.
I remember a conversation I had with Phil Rushton years ago and I said, why couldn't the United States simply have avoided immigration entirely in the 19th century and just populated the continent?
Entirely by the stock that originally founded the country.
And he said, Basically, that couldn't be done because it would have been too slow a process.
The continent was too tempting, too rich.
And if the American system didn't occupy it, other powers would have occupied it.
And so he said, I don't know if he could have documented that.
We were in a In a van leaving an AMREN conference for the airport, actually, so it wasn't an academic discussion, but he simply made that point.
And I do think there was there was a sense that, yes, we need to fill this continent up as quickly as possible.
Let's bring these groups in.
Maybe try and assimilate them.
I don't think they were thinking that clearly, but clearly, because America was bringing in all these peoples from the old world that were outside the British Isles, the question became more and more salient about, well, What do we do with these groups?
Some of them, as Wilmot Robertson said, are not assimilable.
Some of them will assimilate more slowly.
Until they assimilate, they're going to be angry outsiders.
And therefore, you're going to have a crucible where ideologies form to soften up the core, soften up the system, to create Upward mobility opportunities for these outsider groups?
Well, you know, the preamble to the Constitution, if it were read with far less creativity than the readings that have given us so many surprising developments over the years, the preamble could be read as to barring immigration totally.
Because it opens by saying to secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and to our posterity.
Yeah.
Well, that's...
Us and our folks.
In fact, I remember reading, and this is not from any kind of racially oriented investigator, that had the United States simply counted on natural increase, without any immigration at all, by about the year 2000, this is the time when I was reading this study, the population would have been about 145 million.
Well, 145 million was the population of the United States in the 1940s.
Right.
And nobody considered the place drastically underpopulated then.
Right.
No one could waltz in and just grab it.
No, no.
I mean, we can play these psychological games, I suppose, but to imagine what the country would have been like had there been no immigration.
Had it depended on the stock that were here at the time of the founding of the country.
Of course, at the same time, as you and probably practically all of our listeners know, the very first conception of the United States was as a free white country.
Yeah.
The very first immigration law.
The very first Congress.
You know, they're sitting around and saying, okay, what kind of country are we going to have?
Now we've got a constitution.
Now we're independent.
What's the country going to be like?
Well, it's going to be full of free white people.
Of course, they'd already brought in blacks, there were Indians here to begin with, so that was going to be a problem that had to be dealt with, and those problems were not dealt with in the kind of straightforward and practical way that they could have been.
But in any case, the idea to begin with was not anything other than an extension of Europe.
And then this becomes slowly subverted to the point where The United States government is now, in my view,
I suspect you probably agree.
It is the greatest anti-white power in the world today.
Oh, absolutely.
It does us no good, certainly not here in the United States and anywhere in the world.
It is our enemy.
Absolutely.
And to the point that, well, I know you are as much of a fan of Gregor Hood as I am, but he refers to the Potomac regime.
Right.
As this group of rulers of ours, which has turned its back utterly on the founding population.
Right.
This is an extraordinary thing, and the process that you describe that took place in Rome, and the process that's going on in Europe, neither, I believe, are as extreme, as explicit.
I mean, here we have the federal government Being ordered by our own president, the very first day he comes into office, to come up with a plan to achieve equity, achieve equal outcomes to all our pet minorities.
Right.
I mean, this can be achieved only by active, outright discrimination against the people who built the country.
Yeah.
This is just a breathtaking and astonishing thing.
And of course, if it keeps going on, then the country will just fall apart and be a complete wreck.
No one will be loyal to it.
Right.
So, in my gloomy days, I see real low salvation.
Except, and unless, there is a remnant of whites who, as you say, When it comes to the point when we say, no more, no, we're not taking this and establish some kind of enclave or part of the country that is ours.
That to me is really the only way that our civilization, people are going to survive on this continent.
Yeah, I agree with that completely.
And I think the day is coming.
I am astonished at how quickly things have been moving.
I thought that when I founded Countercurrents, I would be sort of an antiquarian looking at interesting authors and obscure interwar nationalist movements and things like that, republishing bits and pieces by Spengler and being essentially an antiquarian, sort of like a scribe in one of the medieval monasteries, keeping alive
Knowledge from an earlier time for who knows when, 500 years, a new renaissance.
I didn't think within my lifetime.
Things would be changing so quickly.
I thought that within my lifetime America would become ungovernable.
I didn't think within my lifetime that America Americans would be moving so rapidly towards recognizing for instance that the Great Replacement is happening that I that I think is quite remarkable the collapse in faith in Yes.
our governing institutions is dramatic.
Yes, the polarization is shocking.
It's very, very encouraging.
There are people talking about secession.
Now, I was talking about secession.
When I was talking about secession 12, 15 years ago in our circles,
people thought I was marginal.
I was marginal in our circles by talking about secession.
Now, secession is not marginal, is almost is mainstream within the Republican Party.
That's an extraordinary change.
Yes, it is.
You know, I went through a kind of a sort of a Laffer curve in terms of the way I looked at things when I first started American Renaissance more than 30 years ago now.
I thought, well gosh, what we think and what we say is so obviously true.
All it will require is a few sane voices from people who don't wear pointy white hats and this will become mainstream.
What a naive fool I was.
But of course during the 1990s there was a kind of intellectual breakthrough and all of these books like The Bell Curve and Why Race Matters and A Question of Intelligence and And people like Richard Lynn are being published by academic presses, in which it seemed that almost every six months there was a wonderful new book for us to review in American Renaissance.
And then everything just went kabam, slammed down.
And I began to feel as though I'm just sort of making a record.
That not all of us were fools and cowards.
Right.
If the guy who's writing the great Chinese history of the world begins to wonder, well you know those white guys they had a good 500 years and then they completely collapsed.
Maybe somebody poking the archives might discover that, oh gosh, well you know there were people who sort of saw it coming.
But now On the one hand, I do see all of these forces gathered against us, but you are quite right.
There is a sense of disillusion, a sense of anger.
One of the points that I often make is, when we think back to the Eisenhower regime, 85% of Americans thought the federal government either did the right thing all the time or most of the time.
Can you imagine living in such a country?
Imagine that!
Yeah.
Golly!
And now the figure is maybe 15% would say that about the federal government.
And some of those people are falsifying their views, because they feel they have to, to be part of the team.
Probably so.
And just the other day, there was a survey of the number of Americans who think that they might have to take up arms within the near future to fight against the United States government.
And it was maybe 30-35% of Republicans and 20% of Democrats.
Right.
Good grief!
And again, some of those people who said, no, I don't think that'll happen, are falsifying their preferences, falsifying their real beliefs.
Yes, yes.
So, no, there's no question about it.
There is a kind of ferment, a potential here.
And one of the most encouraging comments, a kind of comment that I get, is from people who stumble onto American Renaissance, and I'm sure you get the same with countercurrents.
Is they say, thank goodness for having this ready for me when I was ready for it.
Language along those lines.
People who are waking up from the American nightmare and realizing what's at stake.
So, so many things could happen and I take comfort in the idea of the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Yeah.
I never saw it coming.
Very brainy people didn't see it coming.
We thought that was going to stagger on for decades.
All the smart money was on this being around for decades.
If you look at all the wise guys, all the experts in the beginning of 1989, none of them were predicting that communism would be collapsing by the end of that very year.
I like to imagine that if you and I and a few others could direct the mainstream media for just one month, because they have to be constantly saying things that are Against our experience, palpably untrue, but if they are said often enough, people will either believe them or feel that they must conform to them.
But if we could tell them the truth for just a month, maybe just for 10 minutes for heaven's sake, the country at large, all this stuff could collapse.
I don't know.
So on the one hand, sometimes you see these absolutely astonishing things that the left forces on us and then the conservatives Put up with in the most contemptible, groveling way.
But then you see all of these signs of ferment, of people coming our way.
I suppose one of the most encouraging things to me is, and you probably have experienced this too, the kind of traffic we get for our videos, podcasts, websites.
Despite the very, very diligent efforts of all the internet kings and gods to keep us invisible, people find us.
Yeah, this past month we got our numbers and In July, we had more than 780,000 unique visitors.
Wonderful.
That's a new record.
Great.
Great.
It's been in the 700,000s for months, but it jumped up another 50,000.
Wonderful.
So yeah, I think I was looking at Amren, and you're over a million.
So this is fantastic news.
Yes, yes.
And they just cannot, they cannot completely smother us, no matter how hard they try.
It is a pleasure, actually.
I've switched to using something other than Google for some time now.
And when you search a subject that we write about, my goodness, here are articles.
DuckDuckGo is my go-to platform.
Yes, not what you find with Google.
We might as well not even exist.
Google is absolutely useless.
It's mostly just advertising and propaganda.
Yes, it's quite terrible.
So, there is a great thirst out there.
I've been predicting for years now that the left is going to overplay its hands and I continue to predict that because I'm still, I suppose I'm naive, I'm still capable of being surprised and outraged by some of the things that our rulers try to foist on us.
Oh yeah, me too, but I think that's good.
I would rather be surprised and outraged than so cynical and beaten down that nothing surprises me.
Yes, I think they've hit rock bottom, but then the bottom falls out.
They reach a new low.
Yes.
I'm happy to be able to be surprised by these people.
But I'm also very happy to be surprised by how much pushback there is, how much feistiness there is, how many good takes there are.
I'm impressed by the fact that there are Politicians who are now running for office who are not your grandfather's Republicans.
They're not so wishy-washy.
They're not so craven.
I really I love Blake Masters in Arizona.
I hope he's in the US Senate next year.
Let us hope so.
J.D.
Vance.
I hope he's in the US Senate.
Joe Kent.
I hope he ends up in the house.
There are a lot of good people and it's very, very interesting.
You have Paul Gosar and Marjorie Taylor Greene.
They're kind of marginal and radical, but the next crop are like more plausibly mainstream.
And it's only one election cycle later.
Yes.
It's ratcheting.
And it's going in a good direction, I think.
Oh, I think so.
We will see whether those fellows, Vance and Powers, How they perform under the kind of hostile scrutiny that they will get, we will see.
I've probably not followed them as closely as I should.
One of the races I'm rooting for is Laura Loomer, for heaven's sake, running for the House in Florida.
She'll be speaking at the next American Renaissance conference and she might very well be Congresswoman-elect.
I mean, people have a number of complaints about her, but she is an absolutely tireless, and imagine her bearding opposition politicians.
Getting in their face.
In their face!
Good grief.
I smile when I think about that.
We'll see.
But yeah, for years, I have not been practicing what I preach, but I think that sensible, level-headed, racially conscious white people must run for office.
And local office, anything, on a city council, even on a school board, you can make a huge difference.
And I think it's definitely happening more often, but not nearly as often as it should.
So you're absolutely right.
There's a kind of ferment, of anger, of a recognition that, well, wait a minute, this is not the way it should be.
I had an interesting sense of that just a few weeks ago.
I was in eastern Tennessee.
And in Western North Carolina.
And I went to Gatlinburg.
Have you ever been to Gatlinburg?
I've heard about it.
I haven't visited.
It's a kind of... I don't know.
I understand that Branson, Missouri is sort of like this.
It's a kind of Coney Island for middle-class white people.
Overwhelmingly white.
Overwhelmingly white.
And you go into these emporiums that sell t-shirts, and there was one that we went into that was all pro-Trump, anti-liberal, in the most outspoken, ferocious way.
And one of the slogans that caught my eye was, let's see, it was, God, guns, and guts made America great.
Now, this is of course a sentiment that would terrify the people who rule us.
Yes.
God, guns, and guts.
Now, and I thought, this very much captures the sense of the people who live there But it doesn't go far enough.
That's a good start.
What about white people?
What about white people helped make America great?
Yeah.
It's that next step that they have to take.
And I think more and more people really are ready for that.
And it's your and my job, of course, to have something ready for them when they are prepared to make that step.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that we have to prepare and we have prepared.
We've created a great body of literature to help people when they get there.
But that's not enough.
And that's why I so admire the people who are actually Outdoing things.
Yeah.
Now some of the outdoing things can backfire as we know happened in Charlottesville and some of the activist groups.
It's very hard but the point is people are doing things.
Yeah.
And what I anticipate is things either falling apart or falling together in ways we can't even imagine.
And the people whose names we don't even know.
Absolutely.
That's the way it's going to happen.
It's not going to be people that we know.
It'll be people who completely surprise us.
That's right.
That's right.
And we don't know.
We would like to think that we could be part of their psychological or mental or intellectual preparation.
And if that's the case, so be it.
If not, that's fine, too.
If they discover it all on their own.
Well, at this point, I believe that if they shut counter currents down, if they shut Amran down, if they shut the
dare down, they might try something like that someday.
But it's like closing the borders.
After covid was already in the country.
We know how good they are at dealing with viral viruses.
They're just as inept at dealing with intellectual viruses, virulent ideas like ours.
Our ideas are already out there.
Sometimes I feel like I could just retire and write essays on Plato or something for the rest of my life and just watch this stuff ripple out there and hope that I've had some influence on it.
I know I've had some because people talk to me about it.
Yes, it's so gratifying when people tell you that you have helped open their eyes.
Of course, what I tell them is, well, then you'll never be happy again, you know, after you see the things that you see.
Of course, it's the rhyme of the ancient mariner, a sadder but wiser man.
But I shouldn't sound so sad and gloomy because, as you say, these things, as we look around, There are signs of action and just firing right back in places we don't expect.
The school board meetings, the PTA getting together and saying, what?
You're going to make my seven-year-old boy stand up and confess all his privilege?
No way.
Yeah.
This is to me one of the first times ordinary Americans have stood up for White people, if not necessarily because they're white and because it's anti-white, but they are standing up for their own interests in an absolutely unmistakable way.
They're taking the sides of their own children in a racial struggle.
Yes.
That's a good thing.
It's a wonderful thing.
It reminds me, I guess Robert Frost defined a liberal as someone who couldn't take his own side in an argument.
Yeah.
Well, that's certainly what white people are, but increasingly they are able to do so.
That's the title of Mike Polignano's book, Taking Your Own Side.
And the title essay in there is a little classic.
I think everybody should read that, Taking Your Own Side by Michael Polignano.
It's out at Counter Currents.
It's on the website.
You can read it for free.
Just type it into DuckDuckGo and you'll find it very easily.
Well, we're coming up to the end of our hour.
I don't usually like to go on for more than an hour.
I can't say anything intelligent for more than about 20 minutes, and with the help of someone else like you, I can go on for about an hour.
But is there anything else that you would like Radio Renaissance listeners to know about your work, your website, your titles?
Please go ahead and shamelessly tell us what our listeners should know.
Well, years ago, I wrote a piece called First Do No Harm.
And that is a piece about activism.
Because in politics, and this is true of marginal politics, dissident politics, as well as mainstream politics, everybody is supposed to do something, just do something.
Yes.
Whereas the Hippocratic Oath, the doctor, is first, do no harm.
And I do think our activists should take that to heart.
First, do no harm.
Yes, there's a desire to do something, but you have to ask yourself, will this do more harm than good?
Yes.
What are the risks?
What are the rewards?
If it goes right, it might make you look very, very cool.
on Twitter for 20 minutes. If it goes wrong, there could be five years of lawsuits that you've got to deal with.
You've got to take that into account.
So I recommend that, yes, do something, but first do no harm. Follow that principle.
You know, there's a saying people say, white nationalists couldn't get elected dog catcher in this
country.
Well, I don't know if dog catcher is actually an elective office in some jurisdictions, but it'd be very cool if somebody out there actually proved that statement wrong and then maybe maybe work their way up to the US Senate.
Yeah, there's no reason not to.
I've always cautioned against premature popular.
Politics, premature populism.
Well, it's not premature anymore.
No, it's not.
Ten years ago, I was saying populism is premature.
Now, now is the time.
I agree.
I couldn't agree more.
We are in a position where ordinary white folks with the right attitude and the right efforts can make a huge difference.
Well, thank you so much.
It's been a great pleasure having you with me, and I look forward to the next time we have a chance to speak together.
Thank you, Jared.
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