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Nov. 5, 2020 - Radio Renaissance - Jared Taylor
01:07:55
France in the Toils of Islam
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Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to this special edition of Radio Renaissance.
I'm Jared Taylor with American Renaissance, and I have two special guests on this occasion.
I have with me Guillaume Derocher, He is a journalist and historian of Europe with a certain experience in administration, in government type administration, and on one occasion he and I had the pleasure of sharing a podium at an identitarian conference in the Netherlands.
My other guest is Daniel Conversano.
He is an editor and a creator of videos, and he is a nationalist, a European nationalist, who believes that Europeans must unite to constitute a political force, not just an economic force, to limit immigration, non-European immigration, into Europe.
He has also been an editor of Guillaume Fay's last book, Ethnic Apocalypse, which I had the honor of writing the introduction.
So, if I may begin with you, Mr. de Rocher.
We'd like to talk about the situation in France now, and could you set the scene a little bit, some of the events that have led up to the current furor about Islam?
Hello, Jared, it's great to be here.
There's obviously a lot of backstory to everything that's happening in France now.
The most important fact is the presence of a very, very large Muslim population, which is coming into conflict with France's secular tradition.
The listeners will probably remember that five years ago, the cartoonists of the Charlie Hebdo newspaper were attacked by Islamist terrorists, with twelve of them being assassinated, because the cartoonists had produced and published these rather vulgar cartoons depicting their prophet, Muhammad.
And they did not like this, and so they murdered a bunch of them.
More recently, a trial has opened of several of the accomplices, about a dozen of them, of the Charlie Hebdo massacre.
And the newspaper republished the newspaper, the cartoons, to celebrate the occasion.
That was in September.
And then in October, a school teacher, Samuel Patti, showed some of these cartoons, including one of Muhammad naked and with his genitals and anus showing, to his students.
And this caused an absolute furor among the Muslim students and among their parents and on social media, where there was kind of an online mob against him.
And shortly after that, he was gruesomely beheaded by a Chechen refugee, 18 years old.
So someone that France had welcomed into the country out of benevolence.
And he repaid it by beheading this 47-year-old schoolteacher, which absolutely shocked the country.
And has led to a kind of national commemoration of Samuel Petty and a backlash from the government, from people outside the government, on how we can stop Islamic terrorism in the country.
And it was followed very shortly thereafter by What seems to be a copycat terrorist attack in Nice, which is actually near where I'm from, where a Muslim murdered three people inside a church, including a woman who was more or less beheaded, an old lady.
Extraordinarily gruesome things.
And we've seen more terrorism now recently in Vienna with I believe four people killed there.
So this is an ongoing situation.
It's a kind of national trauma and people are still coming to grips with it.
Yes, these are extraordinary times.
It seems like a continuation of something that's been going on for some time, certainly in Europe.
And Mr. Conversano, can you give us some more details about what the reaction in France has been to these gruesome attacks?
Yes.
First thing, thanks for the invitation.
So to answer you, the government made a promise about its will to fight radical Islam.
But when you know the Muslim, like we do in France, you know that fighting radical Islam doesn't mean anything.
In fact, how to make a difference between a nice Muslim and a radical one?
In reality, it is impossible.
Let me give you an example.
In 2004, the film director Theo van Gogh was assassinated by an Islamist.
It was in Netherlands because he criticized the Prophet Mohammed.
Why I took this example?
It's because the killer wasn't known as a radical Muslim.
He seems to be a good student and he seems to be smart.
What I am trying to say is that in each Muslim, lies a part of hatred of resentment against Westerners, against white people that can explode anytime.
So when you live surrounded by Muslims, just like in France, you understand this very quickly.
But in fact, Macron and Darmanin took this decision, one decision, as they closed, they closed down a mosque, a mosque in Pantin.
It's a city near from Paris.
And this mosque relayed a message from Muslim parents who encouraged the terrorists to kill this teacher.
So they took this decision.
But it's not enough, I think.
Yes, as I recall, Emmanuel Macron in one of his speeches in early October, he said that it was very important to fight against separatism, and he said that he was fighting radical Islam.
There are violent extremists who distort the religion and commit violence within Islam.
And my reaction is the same as yours.
Are they really distorting Islam or are they in fact practicing Islam?
Yeah, sorry, we live in this illusion in France that there is two Islam, a good one and a bad one.
And this is the storytelling that we hear when you turn on the TV.
And it's horrible to know that it will not work like this, that it will be war and conflict and other attacks.
And you just have to hear this.
This kind of analysis is just false.
So I'm not confident for the future.
I know we have little confidence.
I do.
I did notice that when there was the national commemoration of this slain high school teacher, Samuel Paty, in Paris, there was a gathering of 10,000 people.
That seems impressive.
But they were waving signs that said, I am a professor, and education is the key, and it is a question of nuance.
No one, no one seems to be waving a sign that says, Islam and Europe are incompatible, which seems to me to be the obvious conclusion.
What do you think, Mr. Dhrusha?
I think, unfortunately, we're seeing a similar reaction among, let's say, metropolitans.
So this is the liberal and more educated fringe of French people.
The same reaction that we saw after the Charlie Hebdo massacre, with the famous Jussie Charlie protests, and after the even more gruesome Bataclan massacre of the people attending a rock concert, where basically people have no reaction.
They just say, this shouldn't happen.
This shouldn't happen.
And they have no policies.
They have no concept of how this can be prevented.
They just say, this is bad.
And in general, certainly the great majority of those people who are Charlie, So they're standing up for free speech.
But they also, generally speaking, are opposed to nationalism.
They are opposed to what they see as bigotry.
And so these people would be absolutely against most of them.
For example, a ban on Muslim immigration.
They would think, oh no, that's hateful bigotry.
And they would stand up for Charlie Hebdo's right to freedom of speech.
And then they would be shocked and surprised when every now and then a Muslim butchers someone for exercising free speech.
Yes, it has surprised me a little bit that not even Maureen Le Pen has come out very strongly about this, but has she not used the expression, politique de la chandelle, the politics of a candle, burning a candle?
Perhaps, Mr. Conversano, can you tell me how she has reacted, or what other politicians have taken a really strong stance against this in France?
Well, about Marine Le Pen, she stayed quite silent, as always after a terror attack.
Unlike what the French media could say, she never used terror attacks to bring back the topic of insecurity.
It's like the right-wing voters were granted to her.
And it looked like she's trying to conquer another audience with the softness of her speech.
Leftist, woman, centrist, public servant.
This strategy doesn't really seem to work for now.
About the other politician, we can say that there is a little difference, I think, with this crime.
This teacher was beheaded because Traditionally in France, I think it's the same maybe in the United States, but in France, teachers are leftists.
So some leftists start to ask Christians to think about the possibility of multiculturalism.
And I saw in manifestations that leftists were a little bit more angry than usual.
We'll see what... Well, that's an interesting observation, because it seems that the fact that Samuel Paty was a school teacher has been something that has really been quite shocking to the French, rather more than, I remember several years ago, a priest was beheaded while he was saying Mass in a church.
That doesn't seem to so much matter.
Or these people who were attacked in the Cathedral at Nice, the Catholics.
That seems to matter less than a school teacher who was beheaded.
I suppose the fact that it was in broad daylight, on the street, but still, I've been very struck by, he seems to be the number one victim.
It's almost as if he is more significant than the 130 people who were killed at the Bataclan.
Exactly.
And also the difference now is that the left has encouraged the young people, the young French people, to fight ideologically against Islamic terrorism by sticking posters in the streets showing a caricature of the Prophet Mohammed.
This is quite new, I have to say, but this mental shift towards Islam is not, and it will be not, I think, reflected in election results.
Because I keep thinking, as Guillaume, that French people are more afraid of fascism than of Muslim victory.
Which sounds believable, but it's true.
However, this time, unlike the time following the Charlie Hebdo attack, the left reaffirmed its right to perform blasphemy.
This is quite new.
Well, has not that always been the case?
Because my recollection is that Charlie Hebdo, when it was doing caricatures, it made far more vulgar and insulting caricatures of Jesus Christ and Mary and Joseph.
Its anti-Christianity has been far more violent and vulgar, it seems to me, than its attacks on Islam.
Yeah, but the difference is that they try to encourage people, students.
To do the same, and that the first time I saw that in France, now that when you go in the Paris or Lyon or Marseille streets, you can saw a caricature of the prophet of Islam.
And I think that it will be terrible for the future, for what Muslims think about us.
So I'm a little bit afraid of what will be going on after that.
In other words, because these caricatures of the Prophet have now been put on in public display in these cities?
That's very interesting.
I was not aware of that.
Of course, the reaction to all of this and Emmanuel Macron's statement have provoked a reaction all around the Islamic world.
Perhaps, Mr. Derocher, you could tell us what you've observed about that?
I also wanted to react a bit to what was mentioned earlier.
So for instance on the fact that it's a school teacher is so important because He is a representative of the French state, and of the French Republic, and of secularism.
And school teachers, maybe more so than, for example, in the United States, professeurs, are a very important part of the French official ideology.
Because, in theory, you are taking these kids and you are shaping them to be citizens, and this was during a civics class, and for It wasn't in his job description to show those cartoons, but for all intents and purposes, for doing his job, he has been beheaded by a religion.
And France has a strong anti-clerical strain, which has mostly targeted Catholicism, but there's also conflict with Islam.
Yes?
It's my recollection, or at least I remember reading, that he told his Muslim students that they were free to leave the room.
Before he showed these, so it seems to me he's already taking their religion into account in his class.
Oh, there's already... People are very conscious that this is an extremely sensitive issue, and something which is not necessarily noticeable.
It really depends where you grow up, who is around you, but many French kids in France are bullied by Muslims.
It's very common, and this turns many people into nationalists, or at least people who are skeptical of mainstream narratives, because this is their lived experience.
And teachers, although they are leftists, also have to be very careful, in fact.
Well, I'd be happy to hear from either of my guests on this question, but I understand that in some classes where the French are supposed to be teaching about the Holocaust, for example, it becomes almost impossible to do so because the Muslim students refuse to sit still for lectures like that, and There was an enormous amount of concern that when there was to be, I believe, what, a minute of silence in French school classes in memory of Samuel Paty, there was concern that Muslim students would make noise and ignore it, that already there is a real tension between Muslims and Frenchmen in schools across the board.
The cultural clash is enormous, and it's something which is new and is not really taken into account by the French mainstream.
I don't have much personal experience with young Muslims, but we do have polls, and I do have friends who were in classes with them.
But if you look at the polls, 66% of young Muslims believe blasphemy against Islam should be illegal.
Three-quarters, and this is kind of surprising perhaps, three-quarters say that they are against sex before marriage, which is in fact higher than the figure for their elders.
Fifty and older Muslims, only about half of them say sex before marriage is immoral.
Whereas if you ask French people about this, even practicing Catholics, they don't think that's very important.
So there was this theory that Muslims will integrate, they will assimilate, but at least in terms of their stated values, this is not happening.
And here's another figure.
25% of young Muslims, in fact, condoned the killing of the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists.
They said, I'm not against it.
They didn't say they would do it or they were for it, but they were saying, it doesn't bother me, I'm not against it.
25%.
That means there's something like 750,000 young Muslims, that's my estimate, 750,000 who have this attitude.
That's a lot of people who, you know, would see you dead.
Yes, it does seem very surprising to me that France is willing to accept and continue to accept Muslim immigration despite numbers of this kind.
But I suppose, as Mr. Conversano points out, ordinary French people are more terrified of being accused of racism than they are, perhaps, of being beheaded.
Yeah, because the situation is the same since 20 years, I think.
I remember in 2001, I was 14, and when terrorists attacked the Twin Towers in New York, we were in school, and the teacher asked us to stay quiet for one minute, a minute of silence.
And there were a lot of Muslims in the class, let's say 10 students, laughing.
Is that so?
It was 20 years ago, you know.
So nothing has changed in that respect?
No.
Well, at the same time... Also on the reaction, could I intervene?
Yes, please, please.
Sorry to interrupt.
But before we move on...
I wanted to say something about Macron's reaction, which is that he's dissolved a couple entities like Baraka City, which is an NGO, basically, of Muslim support, which has links to some radical groups.
They've been talk of dissolving an NGO called the Collective Against Islamophobia in France, which basically sues people for Criticizing Islam or making anti-Muslim comments and several parents of the students had contacted this association to sue the teacher in this case.
So there's talk of dissolving that, but basically nothing really significant has been done on Macron's part, nothing really relevant.
And then for Marine Le Pen, I think we need to understand her as a politician who She basically wants to be a mainstream politician.
So, she has said things like, we need war legislation against Islamist terrorism.
We need to have reconquest, not containment.
But it's really, she's just talking really about strengthening the police state.
She has mentioned self-defense, improving legislation that people can engage in self-defense.
And she has talked about, but maybe this is just a sop to the right wing, putting a moratorium on immigration and naturalizations.
So she has some of these right-wing nationalist points, but she wants to be a mainstream politician.
And the way you can see this is, for example, people will ask, do you think there's a problem between Islam and the Republic?
And she will say, no, there's no more problem between Islam and the Republic than between the Republic and any other religion.
And in fact, one member of the Front National, Jean Messiaen, who is a very Semitic-looking fellow who seems to be a Coptic Christian from Egypt, is very anti-Islam and he has left the party because he doesn't think Islam is compatible with the Republic.
Well, I have noticed that some of the things Macron has been saying, he talks about to free Islam in France from foreign influences.
Well, Islam is a foreign influence.
How can you possibly free Islam from foreign influences?
And he plans to end letting Imams be trained overseas.
What's this?
I mean, Islam comes from outside of France.
It is a foreign influence.
It seems to me He is talking about somehow changing Islam within the borders of France.
Now, if I were a Muslim, even if I were not intent on killing Christians or killing Europeans, I would find that deeply insulting.
Not only is it deeply insulting, it seems to me it is utterly impossible.
He talks about an Islam de lumière, an Islam of an enlightened Islam.
What role could it possibly be of his to tell Islam that it needs to be enlightened?
It seems to me that this sort of thing could only enrage Muslims.
I think the most striking example of this has been with Turkey, because the Turks of France are a very endogamous group, even more so than the other Muslim groups.
And they have state-paid imams from Turkey.
So the Turkish state employs imams, and these are then sent to France.
And, of course, the culture of these imams and the values that they will spread will be the ones that are mainstream in Turkey, but which are very much out of sync in France.
And this is a recurring problem.
You have this also with imams from North Africa.
And you have a lot of money coming from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States because they're just awash with money and they famously have been promoting Wahhabism for many many years and are paying for all these mosques and all these Imams in France.
So there's a huge culture clash between what the French establishment considers normal and what is normal in the Islamic world.
And in terms of the French establishment, I really put it down to there are a lot of aging boomers, aging secularist boomers who make a fetish about secularism, laïcité.
And therefore they kind of goad Muslims even more than they would need to, because you don't see it, they don't treat Muslims the same way, say, the Brits do, who are more comfortable with multiculturalism, but they really don't understand that there's a fundamental clash of values between themselves and the Islamic world.
Excuse me, you say there are older French people who are goading Muslims in a particular way in France?
Could you elaborate on that?
I mean in the sense that they push secularism in a way which Muslims find offensive.
So it would be one thing to have a cartoon newspaper called Charlie Hebdo, and they publish vulgar cartoons about Christians, about Muslims, etc.
But they give it state support.
It is celebrated by the French state.
It is subsidized by the French state.
There are other people who are put in jail by the French state because they, you know, make light of the Holocaust, or they make a cartoon making fun of Jews.
Hervé Risen was put in jail recently, and he's going to be in jail for 9 to 17 months.
Not because of anything he said, but essentially because the judge didn't like the cover of his book.
Which, you know, you could say had a Jewish cliché on it.
So you celebrate one thing, and you put the full support of the state, and you really make it a national moment, and the other thing, you put them in jail.
But I think it's because one certain generation of French people are very, yeah, they think the Holocaust is very important, and on the other hand, they think secularism is very important.
I see, I see.
Well, Mr. Conversano, what is your view on that?
I certainly don't have any sense of a generation split in terms of what is acceptable among the French and what is not, but in any case, France has this long history of laïcité, This adamant insistence that religion have no space at all in the public sphere.
And it's my impression that it is, I mean, as I understand it, teachers are not supposed to wear little crosses around their necks, no crucifixes in classrooms.
And so this is fairly even-handedly enforced, is my impression, but Mr. DeRocher seems to disagree, at least at some level, that Islam is mistreated, certainly by comparison to Judaism.
No, I wouldn't say they're being targeted specifically.
That's not what I meant.
I think they are putting the same standard for all the religions, but Muslims are more sensitive to it, let's say.
That's without doubt.
It's not that Judaism is targeted, but more as an ethnicity, or the Holocaust.
Just to clarify that.
Yeah, let's say that in France you can do a caricature of a Jewish, a bad caricature, or talking about Shoah in a In a bad way, but you can go to jail, but if you speak about Muslim, you can die.
So that's the difference.
But if we compare to other countries like Germany or Great Britain, I think that in France we have a tradition of free speech and free heart.
This is, I think, a difference because I think that France pays for its exceptional artistic freedom, which has no equivalence.
I also think there is a misunderstanding from the Eastern world, the Oriental world, towards France.
In their speech, French politicians and French people encourage immigration and convey a positive image of Islam.
It is, we can say, an invitation for the Muslim.
But in reality, when they arrive here, when Muslim come in France, they realize that French culture and French people reject everything about their religion and mock them.
That's that's the difference with Germany and with also with maybe United States.
It's because Maybe we are not Protestants, so we do image, we do joke with sexual thing, we put the Prophet in a sexual situation, and that's why I think Muslims hate us, particularly.
Well, I was struck by something that Mr. DeRocher said earlier about younger Muslims being stricter in terms of Islamic values than older Muslims.
That surprises me.
That certainly goes counter to what we see in virtually every other country and every other religion.
Would that perhaps have something to do with the way young Muslims misbehave, burning cars, certainly on New Year's Eve, or are those utterly unrelated matters?
I think it's just a question of number, number of Muslims in the country.
When I was little, when I was a kid, there were Muslims, but not in this number, in this percentage of population.
So, now we see the majority of Muslim women who are dressed in the traditional costume.
And when I had, I don't know, 10 years old, Muslim men and Arabic women were dressed like French.
So it changed, I think, just because there are too many.
There are too many, so they feel like they are in an oriental country at home.
But still, that doesn't explain why younger Muslims compared to older Muslims, or perhaps you're arguing that older Muslims were more or less forced to assimilate and they did so psychologically.
That's what I want to say.
I tend to agree with Daniel.
Because they have grown so big as a community that they are basically able to be an autonomous world.
And you're seeing a similar pattern to All the other communities in France, where, for example, rich people are detaching from the country psychologically, where the poor people are detaching psychologically, and they consume their own media, their own social media, they do their own movements, like the Gilets Jaunes, you see this soft disintegration of the country into many subcultures, and Muslims are also doing that.
It is very hard to gauge for me, Because the polls are one thing, but then the social reality is another.
And one thing I think that needs to be said, because many people, you know, think there's going to be a short-term sort of race war scenario, and I'm pretty skeptical on that.
Muslims to me are, or not Muslims, let's be more ethnic, Arabs and Turks are kind of like Latinos, where they are significantly more functional than African Americans.
They are able to do, you know, unskilled or semi-skilled jobs pretty well.
A minority of them will become engineers or doctors, this does happen.
But in addition to that, they also have this religion, and they have this clannishness, which gives them a very separate sense of identity.
And as the population grows, it could be that they just become this whole counter-society in our country.
I know that in France the government does not take an official census by religion or race.
What is the percentage of Muslims in France?
I know it is the largest number in all of Europe, but what are the best guesses as the percentage of Muslims in France?
It's really difficult to say because we don't have the right to do ethnic statistics in France.
Laurent Oberton, in his book La France Interdite, I don't know the English title.
He said that there is probably 20 million of non-white people in France and the percent to 20 million.
And we can say the half of them are Muslim.
So I'm sure that there is at least 10 Muslims in France.
There are estimates for the births.
Unfortunately, we have to use proxies instead of official statistics, but they take tests for sickle cell disease and they only do this for populations that are vulnerable, which is mostly non-white populations.
So one out of three births in France are tested for sickle cell.
So probably non-white.
And then some mainstream pollsters and identitarian websites, even before them, have been estimating the Muslim population based on first names.
Because we do have databases which take the first name of every newborn.
And the tally is something between 20% and 25% of newborns have Muslim first names.
And so, what would be the best estimates as to the percentage of the French population that is Muslim, and then if it's even possible, what is the percentage that is non-white?
That would include Asians, Africans.
I know that these are all very rough figures, but what are the best numbers that are available for those who take an interest in these subjects?
I think it's 50%.
50%?
Non-white?
No, Muslim.
Wait, 50%?
No, Muslim.
Oh, 15%?
Wait, 50%?
Oh, 15.
Yeah, wait, 15, 15, sorry.
15% of course.
15% of the population is Muslim.
Yeah.
And then what, another 10% or 5% would be non-Muslim, non-European, non-white?
Yeah, black, to say that, black people.
Yes, yes.
Well, again, it's after, you know, you mentioned the Charlie Hebdo killings with 12 dead, the Bataclan, 130 dead, the Nice truck attack, 86 dead people, and now it's just this continuing drumbeat Of people who are killed, and then there are all these plots that are foiled by the police.
And if the police were not as active and as effective as they were, there would be even more bodies just piling up.
But as I am astonished by the reaction of whites virtually around the world, We have to ask ourselves, how many dead Frenchmen must
there be before there is a true reaction and a true recognition
that this is something that is incompatible with the European way of being?
The European Union is a global organization, and we are committed to a global, global response.
In other words, it takes Eric Zemmour, who is himself of Middle Eastern origin,
to be as explicit as to say Islam is incompatible with Europe.
Yeah, that's right.
Well, no, the patience and the tolerance of Europeans wherever we find them is something that continues to astonish me.
But let us hope that what you're sensing is correct, that there is a kind of evolution, a kind of recognition that we have tried this over and over for many years and it is failing.
Can I add something?
Can I say something?
Sure.
About the fact that Muslims seem to be more aggressive and violent in France.
I want to insist about this.
I know Muslims because when I was a child and when I was a teenager, I lived in Grenoble.
Grenoble is a city in the Alps, near from Lyon.
Lyon is the second city in terms of number of people.
In France and I know a little bit the psychology of Muslim.
They don't like they don't like our Contradiction because we say oh we live we love Foreigners we like African culture.
We like Muslim culture come to our country.
It's the paradise come here we have a place for you and when they are here and We say to him, oh, your prophet is a stupid guy, you know, we don't like him.
So how can I say that?
If we would refuse them completely, there wouldn't be so much hatred toward us.
We give them the impression of vicious people, you know, pretending to love them, but actually hating their culture, the culture of the Muslims.
To the best of my knowledge, there have been no terror attacks in Slovakia.
Over there, mosques are forbidden.
Well, Muslims understand the message.
Simply as it is.
And don't go there.
We have to follow this example, I think.
Well, of course, it's too late in France.
It's too late in Britain.
But we have to think in terms of reversing the tides, certainly limiting any more that come, encouraging those to go who are already here.
And in the past, there have been a number of policies in France to subsidize the repatriation of Muslims.
As I recall, some were sent to Algeria, some to Morocco, some came back, But what are the prospects for a policy of that kind?
Is anyone proposing this now, or would that be just impossible?
I think that's beyond the pale at this point in terms of presidential goals.
I think part of the problem is France's electoral system, which is winner-take-all and bipolar.
If Marine Le Pen didn't have to aim for 51% of the vote, she could speak more to nationalists
and be more like Salvini, for example, who gets maybe 35% of the vote and becomes the
senior coalition partner of the right-wing coalition.
In her case, she has to get 51%.
So the only people advocating this would be, for example, the identitaires who talk about
re-migration, but Marine Le Pen, certainly, she'll be very civic nationalist.
She'll be, oh, we need to send illegals back, we need to... Any foreigners who have a criminal record or who are suspected of being terrorists should be sent back.
But otherwise, she's quite soft.
But isn't Mr. Conversano telling us that she is missing an opportunity, in that if Mr. Conversano is correct, in that there is this resentment, a deep resentment of Islam that is widespread in France, she might in fact win the 51% if she were stronger in terms of talking about the incompatibilities rather than sending illegals back.
Yeah, the father of Marine Le Pen, Jean-Marie Le Pen, did the same mistake, I think, in 2007.
He tried to be less... How could I say that?
Less provocative.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And especially with the Arabic people in France.
And Nicolas Sarkozy was elected because he He took the speech of Jean-Marie Le Pen to himself, and he win.
And he win in 2007, saying, oh, we will be very violent against criminals, against Islam, against terrorism.
I will change everything.
And of course, he did not anything.
I think that French people want to hear this kind of discours.
I don't know what to say in English.
It's time.
It's time for this.
Well, let's hope so, and let's hope that there are politicians who will take that attitude.
In the United States, also, those of us who are identitarian often think that if we did
have a politician who would make straightforward statements about immigration, about how diversity
is a terrible thing, about how immigration is destroying all of the essential aspects
of the United States, that there would be support for this, but no one dares come forward
in a mainstream way.
It seems that we have the same problem everywhere.
And about remigration, how do you say in English remigration?
Remigration, we would say.
Remigration, we would say.
Repatriation is probably the best word in English.
OK, repatriation.
So I have to say that last year, the French writer Renaud Camus, that you know, who creates the expression grand remplacement, great replacement, tried to present a list for the European election.
And the score that he did was ridiculous.
It was 0.3%.
So less than 1%.
We are far from the victory.
I think it's difficult in France to break through if you don't have the support of the
media political system.
It's a very centralized media political system and the Front National, well it's not even
called the Front National anymore, Marine Le Pen's national rally plays the game in that
So, you know, sometimes a party breaks through, like the Front National did in the 80s, where it was kind of off the radar and then it broke through.
But, in general, you will have a glass ceiling if the media state apparatus wants to exclude you.
Well, that's certainly increasingly the case in the United States where any dissident voices find increasing obstacles just in terms of putting their message on the internet.
We are vividly conscious of the measures that Facebook, YouTube, Twitter are all taking to silence people who disagree with the orthodoxy about immigration or race.
Now, it is my impression that perhaps those platforms, because they are American, are a little less vigilant in France.
What is the state of affairs there with respect to these big American companies shutting down French dissidents?
I think that Facebook France make his own decision so I was I was How to say that?
I had a Facebook account and I was deleted.
Like, I think, like you may be in the United States.
I think it's the same.
But now I see that they start to do the same with some Islamic preachers who say that Muslims have to fight with French people, etc.
So I think that now We are the surveillance and the are the same.
Oh, I'm sorry.
I'm a little bit lost.
The censorship and the surveillance.
Yes.
Yeah.
Hard for against nationalists, of course, but also against the Muslim.
And that's that's a little bit new.
And one thing we can add is that one of the reactions to the Samuel Paty murder has been a suggestion to reinsert censorship legislation for social media in this law against separatisms because they passed a law which would, in the original form, require social media to preemptively ban potentially illegal content within 24 hours.
And this shocked quite a lot of people because it meant that the chilling effect would be huge because, of course, It essentially said, if you want to be safe, just ban it regardless of, you know, maybe it's okay, but you should ban it just in case.
And this was more or less annulled by the France's Constitutional Council, which is the equivalent of the Supreme Court.
And so one reaction to the Samuel Paty massacre has been to say, well, let's reinsert this in the law against separatism.
So we see how, for many Western governments, they sort of put Islamism and nationalism on the same plane.
And these are both foes to be suppressed.
And in this case, You know, in a completely shocking and dishonest way, to use an Islamist attack to shut down the people who are against the cause, which is the entry of Muslims.
Just a thing, despite the censorship on Twitter, on Facebook, I think it's still interesting for a nationalist to look at Muslim reaction after every terrorist attack.
Let me just read you a tweet that I found after the attack in Vienna.
And it was a quite successful one, the tweet written by a Muslim woman.
It's a typical kind of reaction after a terror attack.
So the girls say there has been a terror attack in front of synagogue in Vienna.
Oh, my God.
Muslims are once again going to be very criticized this week.
Good luck to every Muslim in the world.
So the first thought Muslim have when an Islamist take action is oriented towards their home community.
Is this going to bring us good or bad thing?
And I think that Muslim community is the only one that victimize itself at the exact same moment they prove themselves guilty of an atrocious murder.
And another example, when French politicians expressed their condolence to the victim family after the Confluence attack, Nice attack, one could see on Facebook the identity of those who would react with laughing smiles to such declaration, only Arabic names.
So moderate Muslim clap when radical Muslim act, you know.
Well, I see.
The moderates clap when the fanatics hack.
Well, that's very good.
Well, at the same time, though, I have seen, and the press has dutifully reported this, that some of the French Muslim organizations have been saying, oh this is terrible, we stand with our Christian brothers and sisters, and Muslims must never do things like this.
I suppose it's very, very difficult to judge the sincerity of declarations of that kind, but they are not completely absent either.
Two things.
I think that from America, you see compassionate messages from Muslims toward French people.
And it's because they are the ones that the media wants you to see.
The first thing.
And the second is that, yes, you're right.
Some Muslims say that the terrorists are dumb and this is not Islam, etc.
I think that just they are smart Muslims.
They know that they just have to wait.
To be in majority in France in 10 years or in 20 years.
So they know that the best strategy is to do nothing, to don't be violent.
They say to our students, Muslim students, don't be violent now.
Just wait 20 years.
And after that, when France will be a Muslim country, we will start to fight.
Well, it would be eye-opening if it were possible to find messages of that kind, but that sort of message would be very carefully concealed and not necessarily spoken openly.
Well, it is.
I mean, heads of state.
I mean, they don't say it so much anymore, but I mean, you have quotes from Gaddafi or from the president of Algeria, Boumediene, from the 70s and 80s saying this kind of thing, that we will conquer the West through the womb.
Through the womb.
Yes, and well, of course, this is something I wanted to talk about a little bit, this conflict with Erdogan and Macron, and it seems that the Turks always hold over the heads of Europeans, certainly Erdogan does, this threat of unleashing more Muslims into Europe, and he knows that this is something that Europeans are terrified of, and they are unwilling really to take the necessary
measures to stop them themselves.
But this conflict between Erdogan and Macron, as I understand, it could actually lead to
European Union sanctions against Turkey.
How likely is this?
Well, we have to remember that Erdogan has already threatened Europe after the Christchurch
attack.
And particularly, he considers France to be responsible for what happens to itself,
because France encourages artists to produce caricature works.
We already said that.
Yes, it's true.
For example, in Romania, because I live in Romania, I'm French, but I live now in Bucharest, in Romania.
All the politicians say that we have to do to make sanction and not to just because the American people, American people have to know that sometime we think about putting the Turkey in the European Union, which is crazy because Turkey is not an European country and it's it's a Muslim country.
But sometimes the question is is analyzed in Brussels.
And I can say that in the east of Europe, we have a bad vision of Turkey.
And now that Erdogan has criticized and insulted Macron, we know that our culture are completely different.
Well, yes, it is almost hilarious to recall that, what is it, probably as recently as seven or eight years ago, Europeans were talking seriously about admitting Turkey, and Turkey had taken several official steps.
They'd made their application, and they were going through the various complicated procedures, but surely no one is now talking about admitting Turkey to the European Union.
Yeah, that's the only good news, I think, about all of these attacks.
I don't know why, but the Turkish candidacy to the EU is still there.
It has not been officially annulled.
I think two things.
One is, the European countries in general, the EU, that is to say, have a completely incoherent and Cowardly immigration policy, which is to say that some countries, especially around 2015, basically didn't think the borders needed to be policed.
They were saying, it's wrong to keep these people out.
You can't just leave them there.
You just have to let them in, even though it's illegal, which is what Angela Merkel did, in total violation of European and German law.
But the result of this is that you have this constant pressure at the border because they know that if they get through, they will have some kind of status.
You have many Europeans, left-wing Europeans, who basically don't believe in their nation.
They don't believe in borders.
They think a human over there is the same as a human here, and he's worse off than me, therefore, you know, we should let them in.
However, that comes up against the practical reality, which is that there's so many of them in southern, you know, on the border with Spain, landing in the south of Italy, on the border with Greece, that the local people just can't manage it.
These are just these people, and they just need things, and they bring huge social problems with them, and some of them will stab you or kill you, and it's humanly not manageable.
And Erdogan has used this as a kind of negotiating weapon where because we're not able, out of cowardice as far as I'm concerned, we're not able to just say, you cannot come.
We will put a, you know, 30 meter high wall to say you cannot come.
He's able to threaten us in that way.
And I think the European country, the governments think that It was always this idea of a carrot, you know?
We're not going to let you become an EU country right now, but in the future, maybe, so be on your best behavior.
But I think Erdogan has shown that the carrot... I mean, anyway, the Turkish membership was getting less and less realistic for various reasons, and now Erdogan is really ignoring it and is basically You know, a rogue state.
That's how he behaves with regard to the Europeans.
That's how he behaves in insulting the French head of state and his erratic foreign policy in Syria and other countries.
And so there's no business being an EU candidate country.
It is a rival nation.
I mean, we have to remember, you know, I think it was recently the anniversary of the Battle of Lepanto.
You know, this is not a friendly state.
This should not be a NATO member.
It is a rival adversary.
Yes, yes, very well said.
One other thing I wanted to touch on was this Vienna attack that just last Monday that left four people dead.
It was one of these interesting cases in which the terrorist had been in the judicial system but had gone through a de-radicalization program.
He was a Muslim who apparently was cured of radical Islam.
And this reminds me of Usman Khan.
He was another radical Muslim.
He had been sentenced to 16 years in prison in Great Britain.
He was released after having served half of his sentence Because he too had been going through some sort of program that rehabilitates Muslims, in this case, through storytelling and workshops, whatever the heck that is.
This is the kind of completely cuckoo idea that Europeans seem to have, that you're going to cure a Muslim through storytelling, and he will no longer want to kill Christians and Europeans.
But, of course, in London in 2019, he killed two people and wouldn't have wanted to kill more.
And now we have this fellow in Vienna killed four people who had, of course, deceived the authorities into making them think that he had been cured of Islam.
This to me is just typical of the delusions that Europeans, Christians, white people seem to have about their ability to somehow transform people.
And it reminds me of the people walking around the demonstrations in Paris for Samuel Paty saying, education is the answer.
No, no.
This is something we have to recognize, that there are some things that education cannot cure.
And you've seen this in the reaction to Samuel Paty, where the French government is going to set up an online counter-radicalization unit, where they're going to put memes, basically, You know, they're going to try to convince them with Republican memes?
I mean, these people just, they don't understand how human beings work.
And I would emphasize that.
I really think that the top 10% of people in our society, the educated classes, they're so comfy.
They've all been only in education and in offices.
They have their own, you know, cognitive framework.
They don't understand how other people Function.
They don't understand their own proletariat.
They don't understand French workers.
They don't understand flyover country, which they generally treat with contempt.
And they certainly don't understand non-Europeans.
They just don't understand it.
And they just project their own generally quite shallow view of life on the others.
And they think this is a solution.
That's how they come to this.
Well, I'm delighted, of course, that there are some Europeans still, Eastern Europeans, those behind what we used to call the Iron Curtain, who seem to have a more realistic understanding.
We're getting close to the end of our time here.
But perhaps, Mr. Conversano, you live in Bucharest.
Could you perhaps summarize how the people of Romania or other Eastern European countries view the sorts of things that the Western Europeans are going through in terms of Islam?
As you noted, in Slovakia, there simply are no mosques.
And no one wants to set one up there.
And it's my impression that that's largely the case throughout Eastern Europe.
Yeah, I can talk about this.
I live here since three years and I have to say that I am happy to be here because I think that people here are... It's not that they are smarter, but we can say that we have a French expression.
The French expression is bon sens.
They know what is possible and what is not possible.
So they know that white people cannot live with Muslims.
They remember about Ottomans.
They know everything about that.
So they don't understand why we are full like this.
They don't want a political immigration like France or Germany.
They want to be in the European Union because it's good for the economy of Romania, of Hungary, of Poland.
But they don't want to follow the same program.
So every time I speak to a Romanian guy and I say to him, oh, I'm French, the first thing that he says to me is always this.
For example, when I take the cab, the conductor says to me, why are you taking so many Muslims in France?
Why?
What is the sense of that?
You love them?
They kill you.
So why?
You can take some Romanian people, some Moldavian people, some Ukrainian people.
We are normal people.
I remember a cab who told me this.
If you need immigration, take normal people.
Don't take Muslim, don't take black.
I can't say that now Romania, for example, is a racist country because young Romanian people, students, look at American cinema, Netflix, Hollywood, etc.
So now we can't say that there is racism, but there's just They are smart and they know that Romania is a little country and you have to be careful because Africa is there is a demographic boom in Africa and they know this.
Even if when you talk with someone who are very young, he knows that.
So I really I don't understand why French and English people and German people Don't come to this conclusion.
Well, don't forget Americans.
We are equally deluded.
Yes.
Well, I didn't want to go too much longer than one hour here, and I'm very grateful for both of you for having joined me for this.
Are there any final observations that you would like to make?
Our listening audience is worldwide, but it is largely American.
And if you have any particular observations that you would like to make for the benefit of American listeners, I'd be delighted to hear them.
Well, I would like to add one thing on a more optimistic note, which is that while most French people are I wouldn't say they're deluded, but they're not willing to make the necessary step.
There is a very steady trend of political polarization, where basically, as soon as you have Muslims in an area, and if it also has unemployment, these are the two predictors of support for a national rally.
It's a mechanical thing.
Assuming it's not like the city center with all the, you know, gentrified areas and liberal areas.
If it's a normal town or village, as soon as Muslims go there, people radicalize and become nationalists.
And this is something that pollsters have found.
And so we can look forward to a France which will be more realistic in the future.
And then, as a message to Americans, I would say that their country is, on the one hand, it's been the source of many of the problems that we faced objectively.
And we're now, and it's amazing, we have not mentioned it at all, but we're now waiting still in anticipation for the presidential election results.
They have a lot of knowledge on race, a lot of empirical knowledge, a lot of empirical science.
Thank you, Mr. Conversano.
Thanks for the invitation, Mr. Tello, and sorry for my English.
Oh, no, no, no.
And their struggle is very important for us, too.
Thank you. Mr. Conversano?
Thanks for the invitation, Mr. Tello, and sorry for my English.
Oh, no, no.
I have to perform my English.
No, your English has been very good.
And all of us, racially conscious white people, are constantly praying that Eastern Europe,
I see it as a kind of race against time, that there is a kind of seductive quality to the wealth of the West.
And you see these American movies in which all the bad people are white people, racist white people,
and the good people are Mexicans, and the good people are Nigerians.
American blacks and it's a race for the Eastern Europeans to develop their own wealth and their own pride in themselves so that this kind of Western false falsehood and seduction does not divert you from the kind of common sense that you were describing, the common sense that seems to be lost here in the United States.
But in any case, thank you very much.
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