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March 11, 2026 - The Joe Rogan Experience
03:09:36
Joe Rogan Experience #2466 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin

Francis Foster and Konstantin Kisin dissect 2026's global instability, debating whether Saudi Aramco attacks are Israeli false flags or logical escalations against Iran's proxies. They contrast Iran's factionalized IRGC with Venezuela's "regime adjustment" under Del C. Rodriguez, questioning if the U.S. plans a similar moderate takeover or an authoritarian monarchy. The discussion exposes ideological extremes, from Islamist caliphate ambitions to Christian nationalists viewing combat as Armageddon, while critiquing media misinformation and AI-driven paranoia. Ultimately, they warn that polarization and intellectual gladiatorism threaten democratic discourse, urging a return to genuine debate before promoting Foster's book on education. [Automatically generated summary]

Participants
Main
f
francis foster
31:13
j
jamie vernon
06:31
j
joe rogan
01:23:30
k
konstantin kisin
37:40
Appearances
b
benjamin netanyahu
isr 00:44
d
dmitry medvedenko
aljazeera 01:28
s
sam tripoli
00:33
s
scott pelley
cbs 01:01
Clips
m
marc polymeropoulos
00:25
|

Speaker Time Text
False Flags in the UAE 00:12:53
unidentified
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Train by day, Joe Rogan, podcast by night, all day!
joe rogan
All right, so when we scheduled this, there was nothing happening.
unidentified
It was so peaceful.
konstantin kisin
Every time we're here, something crazy is going on, man.
joe rogan
Yeah, maybe we manifest it.
francis foster
To be honest, 2026 did start with a bang.
joe rogan
Yeah.
Well, a lot of things, you know, it's just nothing seems stable everywhere.
Everywhere in the world seems fucked right now.
Like, this is like, in all of my years, this seems the most unstable globally.
Like, I never worried that the UK was going to be like complete chaos, arresting 12,000 people for social media posts and abandoning trial by jury, all that shit.
I never thought the Ukraine-Russia war would go on this long.
Never thought.
Never thought they would just continue bombing Gaza and then what's happening now?
They just sort of stop.
And now they're talking about putting a resort there.
What?
You hear that and you go, are you fucking serious?
konstantin kisin
Right.
joe rogan
Tim Dylan has a, I won't give the bit away.
He has a fucking phenomenal bit about staying in that resort.
konstantin kisin
Yeah, and you boys have been busy as well, Joe.
joe rogan
Yeah, and I was going to get through that.
The embarrassing part.
In the middle of Ramadan, you take out the leader of a Muslim country.
konstantin kisin
They're hangry already, and you're fucking with it.
joe rogan
They're really.
Yeah, they can't drink water.
And then, you know, I was listening to Tim Dylan's podcast today.
He's got a great podcast with Ryan Grimm and one other gentleman.
But one of the things that they brought up was that some of these drone attacks, it doesn't even seem like they're from Iran.
Some of these drone attacks on Gulf states, like that one of them, I don't want to speak out of tune out of turn because I'm not exactly sure which ones they're talking about.
They're talking about one of them on either it's a oil refinery, I think it is, an oil refinery.
It doesn't seem like it came from Iran.
konstantin kisin
Where did it come from?
joe rogan
That's a good question.
konstantin kisin
One of their proxies?
joe rogan
That's a good question.
Well, the fear is a false flag.
That's the fear.
Like, if you really wanted to get really scared of what we're dragged into, you're dragged into an ally that's not telling you the truth and is also doing some other stuff.
I'm not even saying that that's the case, but a lot of people are assuming that that's what it is.
francis foster
But that's what happens when you have an absence of information.
joe rogan
Right.
francis foster
So the moment you have an absence of information, there's a vacuum.
And nature aboard is a vacuum.
You need to have that vacuum filled.
So that's where conspiracies naturally flourish.
joe rogan
100%.
francis foster
Because if people don't have information, then they're going to basically theorize.
joe rogan
Right.
francis foster
And part of people theorizing is conspiracies are going to start flourishing.
joe rogan
Well, I think they were basing it on where the drone came from.
Let's see if we can find some information on that, Jamie.
jamie vernon
I will try.
It was Jeremy Scahill was the other reporter on the video.
konstantin kisin
I just find it amazing now how many people have a hard take on what's going to happen.
I'm like, we don't know a fucking thing about what's going on.
The coin is in the air, and we do not know how it's going to, but everyone's got a take.
Everyone knows.
We do not fucking, I don't think anyone knows.
I understand if you work at the White House or if you work in Russian propaganda or you work in Chinese propaganda, or if you work in Iranian, you've got to get your point of view across to try and persuade people.
But if you're actually trying to work out what's genuinely happening, I don't think anyone knows how this is a gamble of gigantic proportions.
And nobody knows how it's going to end.
It's just so unpredictable.
And I can tell you a great story that is positive.
for the for the West, let's say, for America.
I can tell you a terrible story, and they both sound very convincing, and no one knows which one of them is true.
joe rogan
Yeah, that's a very good point.
This is the hot take culture, right?
Everyone has a take, and they want their take to be that expert take.
So specific drone attack incidents that call potential false flags.
Saudi Arabia, Saudi Aramco, rather, oil facility attack.
So Iranian officials deny striking the Saudi Aramco processing facility and instead suggest Israel may have carried out that attack as a false flag to inflame Gulf opinion and pull Saudi Arabia more directly into the war with Iran.
So Ryan Grimm explicitly says he thinks Iran's claims that Israel hit the Iramco facility need to be taken seriously and that it's very possible Israel did it.
And this was the other one, the drone strike on the British base in Cyprus.
konstantin kisin
That was from Lebanon, right?
francis foster
Yeah.
joe rogan
Is that what they're saying?
konstantin kisin
Yeah.
joe rogan
May have come from the direction of Lebanon.
He places this in the same context of Iran claiming Israel carried out certain attacks in neighboring states as false flags to blame in Iran and drag those countries into the war.
konstantin kisin
Those countries, this doesn't make any logical sense to me because those countries are already in the war.
I mean, Saudi Arabia and UAE have been attacked by Iran because they were on the phone to Trump basically asking him to do this.
joe rogan
This is another weird one, the Tucker Carlson one.
You saw that, right?
konstantin kisin
No.
joe rogan
So Tucker Carlson said that they'd been arrested.
The members of Massad have been arrested in Qatar and Saudi Arabia.
konstantin kisin
But both Qatar and Saudi Arabia have said it's not true.
joe rogan
Yeah, they've officially denied such arrests.
Their own Saudi sources also denied it, though they note details don't prove it didn't happen, and that states would almost certainly hide such arrests if real.
Huh.
konstantin kisin
The thing, Joe, is that these countries, so Saudi Arabia and UAE, Qatar less so, they want this to happen because they also hate Iran or the Iranian regime.
So there is no need for Israel, even if you, you know, if people are tempted to believe there's no need for Israel to do this because these countries are already in it.
joe rogan
Right.
konstantin kisin
And that one of the reasons Iran has attacked things in Saudi Arabia and in the UAE is they know that.
Right.
The Gulf countries are on board with this.
joe rogan
Right.
So what would be if, let's assume that the false flag, that it's in play.
unidentified
Why?
joe rogan
Why would Israel, how would they benefit from doing this?
konstantin kisin
That's what I'm saying.
There is no rationale that I can think of.
joe rogan
For the people that think the false flag is real, like, why do they think that?
What do they think that Israel would benefit from it?
Is there a scenario where you can imagine it would inflame things and further support other countries contributing to the – I mean there's a lot of money that's being spent on this war, right?
Right.
This is an insane amount of money just for munitions, just for missiles.
konstantin kisin
Yeah, yeah, and then rebuilding Iran if we get to that, right?
joe rogan
Maybe another resort.
konstantin kisin
Yeah.
But I just don't see the rationale because the Gulf countries are already targets for Iran.
There's nothing too inflamed.
Like the situation is already pretty fucking inflamed, right?
And it's partly inflamed because, as I say, actually, the Gulf states and Israel are pretty aligned on this particular thing.
They are all at threat from the Iranian regime.
So we we had Eamon Dean and Richard Minito on our show the other day.
One of them is a al-Qaeda MI6 double agent.
Another one is a really reputable investigative journalist, Richard.
joe rogan
Al-Qaeda MI6 double agent.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
What balls.
konstantin kisin
And he has a great podcast now as well called Conflicted.
joe rogan
What a great name for a podcast where a guy was a double agent.
konstantin kisin
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
What balls that guy must have.
konstantin kisin
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Really cool guy.
But anyway, I mean, he was explaining that Saudi Arabia has a population that is way bigger than what they can sustain in terms of the water, but they live in the fucking desert.
So they have these desalination plants, which are extremely vulnerable.
And Saudi Arabia, UAE, these other countries, they felt at huge risk from Iranian attacks for a long time.
So none of them like the Iranian regime that's spreading terrorism through its proxies.
So in actual fact, dragging them into the war, kind of like there's no sense for that.
I think there's a lot of people just they go to reaction now whenever anything happens is that it was Israel's fault.
Like Venezuela, fuck all to do with Israel.
But when it happened, everyone's like, oh, it's Israel.
I think some people just go to that now as the automatic response, which comes back to what I was saying earlier about the hot tech culture.
Something happened three minutes ago and now everyone's got a fucking take on it.
You don't know anything.
None of us know anything.
None of us know how this is going to go.
Because this right now is a highly unpredictable situation.
I don't think the White House knows how this is going to go.
joe rogan
No, it's terrifying.
It's terrifying and it's exactly the opposite of what we were told leading into this administration.
That it's going to be America first.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
and no more unnecessary foreign wars there's the other thing that do you remember desert storm Yeah.
francis foster
Yeah.
joe rogan
Desert Storm, quick and easy, baby.
Woo, we went in, kicked some ass, took some names.
That's a wrap.
Pulled out.
There was only one base that got hit.
So the amount of deaths by American citizens was fairly minimal.
I think that's what got people so confident into entering Iran after 9-11.
Or excuse me, Iraq after 9-11.
To go back, like we already fucked them up once.
We're going to go back and this is going to be easy.
Well, it wasn't easy the second time.
It was drawn out and it didn't make any sense.
But people wanted some form of revenge, something for 9-11.
And so somehow or another, they justified a war with a country that had zero to do with it.
Like, it didn't even make sense.
That one took for.
And then we also invaded Afghanistan at the same time.
unidentified
What do we do?
What the fuck?
joe rogan
So in the fog of this idea of American exceptionalism, we're just going to go in and fix it.
We did it before.
There's no one even close to us.
Well, look how that turned out.
francis foster
Yeah, well, this is completely true.
And there's this idea that it's so easy to take one regime, remove it, and then just put another one in its place, like it's a Lego block, and then all of a sudden you're going to magically fix a country is a fantasy.
Like if you take Iran, the IRGC, which is the Islamic Revolutionary Guard, numbers around 200,000 trained soldiers.
And not only are they trained soldiers, They're fanatical.
They're fanatics.
And then you have the secret police, and then you have the regular police.
And then you have the people employed in the government, and then their families, and so on and so forth.
And then their supporters within the country.
And then you've got the various factions within Iran, like the Kurds, who want independence.
So the moment the leadership is weakened, they're going to use it as an opportunity to launch their own revolution to try and break away from the rest of Iran.
So you have all of these particular parts, these factions.
And then you think if you take out the top, the Tagar at the top who's holding it all together by force, I'm not saying I agree with him or what he does, you have the very real risk that the entire country is going to disintegrate, as what happened in Iran, in Iraq, sorry.
joe rogan
And also Libya.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
The idea that you could just take the guy out and that's rap.
I mean, it doesn't seem like it's well thought out.
konstantin kisin
Well, I mean, they would say Venezuela, right?
Like regime adjustment.
That's a completely different kind of thing.
Of course, of course.
joe rogan
This is a religious fanatical.
It's a totally different kind of country.
Also, it's a country that's been under threat for decades, right?
So they've been preparing for this kind of thing.
francis foster
Yeah, and also with Venezuela, it wasn't a regime change.
Practically everybody who was in the old regime is still there.
konstantin kisin
It's a regime adjustment.
francis foster
Exactly, exactly.
So Del C. Rodriguez was one of the senior leaders in Maduro's regime.
They just took out Maduro and his wife.
They put Del Codriguez there.
But the whole structure, the whole leadership, the whole party is still in place.
So they've just, what they've done is they put Delsi at the top and they've said to her, look, if you fuck about, you're going to get what your boss got.
Venezuela's Religious Fanaticism 00:03:21
francis foster
So you're going to follow what we say.
You're going to do what we say.
You are going to open up the oil refineries.
We're going to build it.
You're going to start pumping oil out.
You're going to stop messing about with Hezbollah, which they had training camps in the island of Margarita, which is a little Caribbean island two and a half hours away from Miami.
Training camps.
You can't have that.
You're not going to be fraternizing with the Cubans.
And you're going to play ball.
And essentially, Venezuela is now a colony of the United States.
That's what it's now become.
joe rogan
That's wild.
Well, there's also the Kurt Metzger angle, which is hilarious.
Kurt Metzger cornered me one night at the mothership, and he explained to me that this was all about the 2020 election and that Maduro somehow or another had something to do with rigging the 2020 election.
And he's going to say it as a part of his testimony.
He's like, just wait.
Just wait.
Mark my words.
He's convinced of this.
He goes down the rabbit hole to the lava.
Like he passes and he's like, this rabbit hole's been covered up.
It goes deeper.
He keeps going until he's at the fucking center of the earth.
konstantin kisin
He's a funny guy, though.
joe rogan
Oh, he's hilarious.
jamie vernon
He's hilarious.
joe rogan
He's mentally ill.
He's hilarious.
He's one of the funniest people I know, like ever.
Fantastic joke writer, too.
I mean, he's just great all around.
But Jesus Christ, like some of his nutty theories, they go so far.
francis foster
Oh, absolutely.
I've been in bars with Kurt where he starts talking to me.
And I'm like, Kurt, I don't even know what we're talking about anymore.
joe rogan
Well, he changes conspiracies mid-sentence.
He starts bringing up some shit from the 70s.
It's the church committee and this and that and MKUltra.
And don't you know about monarchs?
unidentified
Like, what?
joe rogan
Slow down.
Like, not everybody knows what you're talking about.
francis foster
But I think this is, and I love Kurt, but this is kind of where you feel that the truth isn't enough.
So there needs to be something else.
There needs to be something that goes deeper than that.
And sometimes there is, don't get me wrong.
Sometimes it does go deeper.
But sometimes, like, you're making connections where there are no connections.
Like, it's pretty simple with Venezuela what was going on.
They were fucking about, and they were doing it for a long time.
And they were doing it in America's backyard.
And they had warning after warning.
And Maduro, the way I'd push back against Kurt is, I'm really sorry, Kurt, but Maduro ain't that bright.
joe rogan
Well, I don't think he has to be that bright to finance and make sure and arrange things because they did.
There was like something connected to the voting machines that were there.
konstantin kisin
They made those claims.
joe rogan
Sidney Powell, was it?
Yeah, here we go.
She's another fun one.
Post-2020 from Trump allies like Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani claiming Hugo Chavez, Maduro's predecessor, developed rigged software to export to U.S. firms.
These were promoted by figures like Mike Lindell.
He makes a great pillow.
You should listen to him.
And amplified on social media, but courts and fact checks rejected them, including Fox News $787 million Dominion settlement.
konstantin kisin
Yeah, I was going to say I was pretty sure those claims were debunked.
joe rogan
Yeah, not to Kurt.
He's like, you guys don't know where the hard drives are.
North Korea and Cuba Plans 00:15:19
joe rogan
They're in the center of the earth.
We've got to get there.
Yeah, that doesn't make much sense to me, but neither does this idea that you're going to take over a country's oil supply.
You know, like that, you know, we'll just take it.
The problem is from the outside, like the rest of the world, you look at this unnecessary aggression by the United States government, and then you tack on whatever propaganda they have already been spitting out about America for the last 20 or 30 years.
And then this war with Iran gets really ugly because that's how you start a World War III.
You start a World War III by doing something that other than people that wanted this forever, who else thinks that's a good idea?
Who else thinks it's a good idea to just attack a country that isn't doing anything?
They haven't done anything.
Like if you proof that they have developed depleted uranium and they've got it up to a point where they've got it to what it has, what percentage does it have to be?
Like they're at 60, right?
konstantin kisin
But that's way more than you need, usually.
joe rogan
Way more than you need, right?
So it shows that they're at least ramping up their production where it's possible to get it to whatever it needs to make it.
konstantin kisin
That's way more than you need for civilian use.
joe rogan
But that's still, it's not clear that that justifies an invasion when North Korea has nuclear weapons.
unidentified
Right.
Right?
joe rogan
It's like, do we just want, are we just trying to prevent them from ever getting to a point where they're like North Korea?
Who the fuck is worried about North Korea?
Zero people.
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konstantin kisin
I think the difference, as you correctly said earlier, is these people are very different to the North Koreans, right?
North Korea wants to be left the fuck alone.
Iran does not want to be left alone.
Iran wants to dominate the region.
That's why they fund Hamas.
It's one they fund Hezbollah.
It's why they fund the Houthis.
It's why they are doing shit.
That's why the Gulf countries and Israel are very worried about them, right?
So that's the difference, I think.
And then there's the, you know, some of the people we've had on the show who are Iranian have talked about the what is it called 12th Shia Islam?
I can't remember the details, but basically they have a kind of messianic vision of what's going to happen.
And they believe that when the world ends, that's when the prophecy will be fulfilled.
You don't want those guys with nuclear weapons, right?
joe rogan
That's a good point.
konstantin kisin
Yeah.
So from that perspective, it's different to North Korea.
And so I think that's part of the thinking.
But your point is interesting to me about the fact that this doesn't reflect what people, you know, as we're not Americans, but it doesn't seem to have been part of the policy platform of the Trump election at the last election, right?
joe rogan
No, not at all.
konstantin kisin
But I do think there is some kind of strategy behind all of this.
And I'm very curious what that is.
Because I guess if you think about it logically, you would say, well, is it an attempt to effectively push back against China and Russia, infiltrating all these countries?
China and Russia were very close with Maduro in Venezuela.
Very, very close.
Like Francis is saying, has Bilal training camps, Island Margarita?
Where was the oil going?
Right?
Same with Iran.
I mean, Iran sells its oil to China and sends suicide drones to Russia to use in Ukraine.
So maybe it's that.
Maybe the strategy is you're trying to push back against Chinese and Russian influence in all these countries because you can't attack them directly because you can't attack them directly, right?
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
But this is all just guessing on my part.
And that's what I'm really curious.
We're going to do some interviews on this trip to kind of like, I want to get someone on the show who can go, this is the strategy.
This is what we're doing.
Because I think, as we were saying earlier, it's not very clear to most people what the rationale behind all of this is.
But I also don't think this sort of like mad dog Trump idea is true either.
I think he has a strategy.
I'd just love to know what it is.
francis foster
And it's very interesting because there's been talk about regime change in Cuba.
And one of the things, so...
konstantin kisin
I think that's next, genuinely.
joe rogan
Oh, my God.
konstantin kisin
I think that's next.
francis foster
So when Chavez came to power in 99, what he did, and not enough people talk about this, is he turned what was very corrupt, admittedly, liberal Western-style democracy into a communist dictatorship.
And how do you do that?
You can't just literally do that overnight.
So what he did is he allied with the Cubans and Fidel in particular, Fidel Castro.
Venezuela provided Cuba with cheap oil, which helped to keep the Cuban economy afloat because Cuba has been going broke since however many years, 40 odd years.
And what Castro did was he gave him the boots on the ground in Venezuela, but also the technical expertise and know-how in order to change a Western liberal democracy into a communist state with permanent surveillance, secret police, subjugate the population so there was no chance of them ever being able to revolt and turn everything into, like I said, into a communist state.
So by what they did in Venezuela, Venezuela can no longer support Cuba.
So Cuba is literally now withering on the vine as a result of them knocking out the Venezuelans.
So it's going to come to a point where you say Cuba are effectively going to go bankrupt, which could precipitate an uprising, a revolution by people when people can no longer eat.
And that would mean that that country is then weakened.
Finally, they can get rid of the communist regime there and they can have a different type of government, one which will be far more sympathetic, shall we say, to working with America and being an American island possibly.
konstantin kisin
That makes sense to me in a way.
What I don't understand about the Iran thing is like, what is the end goal here?
Well, you've got the Reza Bahlavi, the Shah's son.
I mean, he left Iran a long time ago as a kid, right?
You know, the idea that he's going to go back in there and be welcomed by the masses, maybe that's true.
unidentified
Maybe that's true.
joe rogan
It's like Daenerys returning to the Iron Throne.
konstantin kisin
Yeah, but Daenerys had three fucking dragons.
unidentified
Right?
joe rogan
But you know what I'm saying?
Like, she left when she was a baby.
konstantin kisin
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, that's right.
And it's not like the people are desperately.
I don't know.
Maybe the people are desperate for the return of the state.
joe rogan
Well, it seems like some people are desperate for a change there.
The people that were protesting, people that risked their lives.
unidentified
100%.
joe rogan
100%.
But like every country, like if you only listen to the liberals in this country, you would think that no one's illegal on stolen land.
If you only listen to the Republicans in this country, you would think we've got to find every illegal and get him out of our country and make America great again.
It doesn't make sense if we just go only by the protesters.
We don't really have accurate polling because they don't have any free speech over there.
And they've killed famous athletes over there for protesting.
I mean, they killed the Olympic gold medalists in wrestling.
When the UFC tried to step in and try to do something to stop it, they executed him.
Apparently, I don't even think he was actually protesting.
I think he was just at a protest.
He wasn't even saying anything.
francis foster
And this is the thing you always have to bear in mind, Joe.
joe rogan
I might be wrong about that, though.
konstantin kisin
No, I think you are right.
joe rogan
Am I right about that?
konstantin kisin
The final details, I'm not sure, but the fact that he was executed.
joe rogan
Yes, he was.
konstantin kisin
I know Dana worked very hard to try and save that to him.
joe rogan
I think there was some discrepancy as to whether or not he was actually participating in the protest.
That also could have been the defense.
I don't know.
But I mean, the fact that they execute people who protest, there's no way you can support that kind of.
That's a scary ass fucking government and run by religious fanatics.
That's a scary ass government.
But the question is, how scary ass does it have to get where invading makes sense?
Because if this keeps going, like if we have to go boots on the ground, that's where things get nuts.
konstantin kisin
You can't go boots on the ground, man.
You can't.
You can't.
unidentified
Right.
konstantin kisin
But I don't think there's anything.
joe rogan
You should be president of the United States.
konstantin kisin
There's a lot of people that are going to disagree with that.
No, I don't think that's viable.
Just like that.
joe rogan
There might be robot boots on the ground.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
You know, if Elon gets that factory up in time.
konstantin kisin
But what I want to know is, like, what is it that you're working towards?
joe rogan
Right.
konstantin kisin
Right.
Like, so from what I understand, talking to some of the people, like, Israel would quite like a Reza Pahlavi monarchy because the other Middle Eastern countries that they have peace with, you know, Bahrain, Morocco, increasingly the Gulf states, they're all monarchies.
joe rogan
Right.
konstantin kisin
Right?
unidentified
Right.
konstantin kisin
So they're down with that.
But from what I understand, the White House is really not that interested in Pahlavi.
And so what do they want?
Well, one of the things that Richard Minnetter broke on our show, because it hadn't been reported anywhere else, was that the White House has given the Israelis a no-kill list, which is basically a list of members of the current regime that they don't want to be killed because they have hoped that these people could then be the Rodriguez equivalent in Iran.
And I don't know that the fanatics within the Iranian regime who are there now, how many of them are like this mod, like Darth Vader but like, like, do you know what I mean?
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
You're kind of looking for.
francis foster
Darth Vader zero.
konstantin kisin
Yeah, no, no, no, no, zero Islamism.
Like, I don't know that that exists, right?
joe rogan
Sugar-free.
konstantin kisin
Sugar-free.
Islamism-free.
So that's the bit.
And that doesn't mean that there isn't like a plan, but I don't know what the fuck that plan is right now.
And I find it hard to see one.
So evil regime gone, wonderful.
But the question is always like, what comes after that?
That's always the question.
And that's where I think your point is very true, which is in the past, there have been times where this sort of approach has gone completely off the rails.
That's a fact.
francis foster
And it's also as well, what has been coming out of the Trump camp is contradictory, to put it mildly.
You have Hegsef saying one thing, you have Trump saying another.
They contradict each other at certain points.
Is that a tactic in order to befuddle the opponent?
Maybe, who knows?
Or is it the fact that they don't actually have a grand vision?
joe rogan
Was there some sort of a concession today on Russian oil?
konstantin kisin
Yeah.
Well, I think, first of all, Trump let India buy Iranian oil.
And I think now they are lifting the sanctions on Russia selling its oil because the oil prices spiked as much as they did.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
Here it goes.
U.S. eases limits on Russian energy as oil prices soar.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
Doom, Yeah.
francis foster
Well, you've got the Pink Floyd tier, so it's appropriate.
konstantin kisin
But you can see it.
Like, the oil prices spiked for what?
One day, two days?
Yeah.
And everyone went full panic straight away.
But the thing is, if that carries on for two months, the impact of that on domestic politics, I mean, I'm not an expert in American politics, but even I can say that's going to be pretty fucking important.
joe rogan
Oh, it's bad.
konstantin kisin
Right.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's going to be bad.
I mean, if oil prices spike, we're fucked.
konstantin kisin
Yeah.
joe rogan
You know, and the Republicans are really fucked.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
And you've got the midterms.
joe rogan
You've got the midterms coming up in November, and it's also the momentum will be in their way.
francis foster
And look, there's, you know, second, third, fourth order consequences.
So at the moment in the UK, the vast majority of people are finding it more and more difficult just to get through to the end of the month because of the cost of living, inflation.
It's becoming worse and worse.
I was talking to a butcher in my area, which is this very nice part of North London.
You know the type of place I'm talking about.
Everyone loves BLM.
No one has a black friend.
That kind of place, right?
Okay, that's the kind of area it is.
And he was telling me that even in this very wealthy area, people are starting to rush in meat now.
So before they'd have meat five days a week, now they're going down to three or two.
And this isn't a wealthy area.
So now imagine if there's energy spikes and then food becomes more and more expensive.
There is already a very worrying, hard left political movement growing in the UK where they're talking about, you know, capitalism doesn't work.
We need socialism.
And there's this new politician come to the fore, a guy called Zach Polanski, who talks about what we need in this country and the UK is socialism.
Now imagine if the cost of living crisis gets worse and the vast majority of people who work hard in a regular job can't make ends meet through literal no fault of their own.
Can you blame them for going, hang on, capitalism doesn't work?
Because in this instance, at that moment, it doesn't work for them.
And then that could spark something completely disastrous for our country.
konstantin kisin
But I think, you know, that's a negative story.
I think it's incredibly persuasive.
And I lean more in the direction that this could go badly.
But I also think there is the possibility of this goes well, too.
I think that is possible.
joe rogan
How do you envision that scenario?
konstantin kisin
Well, so if they're able to keep the straight of humans open and you don't have this energy problems that we've got now, you know, Venezuela, Cuba, he's basically resetting the region and he's basically saying to all the people that want to align themselves with China and Russia, like, we're not fucking about here.
Don't cross these lines.
That is an opportunity to address the slide that the Western world has had vis-a-vis China and Russia for a very long time.
That could be a very positive thing.
The thing is, what happens in Iran, like, that is the thing that I don't really see how that goes well.
Might do.
Like I said, there's probably a plan that we don't know.
And if that works out, that could be very good.
joe rogan
Okay, what would you imagine that plan would be?
If you like, let's imagine, best case scenario, you're in the White House, they're all very rational.
No one's being influenced by foreign governments, no one's incompetent, everybody knows what they're doing.
konstantin kisin
Well, yeah, I mean, we're in the realms of fantasy now.
joe rogan
That's why I'm right.
konstantin kisin
But, I mean, take the Soviet Union, which is obviously something that I know, right?
Being born in the Soviet Union, Russia.
Towards the end of the Soviet Union, you still had some fanatical communists.
And in fact, throughout the Soviet Union, you always had within the government a mixture of different people, right?
You had the fanatical communists who believed that communism is the only thing that was ever going to work, et cetera.
Fanatical Communists Abroad 00:05:20
konstantin kisin
But you also had people who were reformers.
They saw the problems.
They saw that the fanatical communists were ruining things and things were getting worse, right?
They saw that you had to kill more and more of your own people to keep shit locked down, right?
So the argument could be within the Iranian Revolutionary Guard or the regime more broadly, there are people who are like, you know, I'm not necessarily that keen on the guy who runs Sirina, Al-Jilani, right?
He is a jihadi, but he's kind of like a moderate one.
You know, you know, how long that, I don't know how long it's going to last.
But my point is, within every regime, there is some range of opinion.
There is some range of fanaticism.
There is some range of people who, partly for generational reasons.
You know, the younger people have seen, you know, a 40-year history and they now go, okay, this isn't working anymore.
We need to try something else.
That is possible.
So if the CIA and the White House have someone like that and they can do a regime adjustment, and like, I think the idea that you're going to have, you know, multi-parliamentary democracy with free and fair elections and women with, you know, like Venice Beach, you know, rollerblading on bikinis on.
I don't know that that's going to happen, right?
But what you might have is an authoritarian regime of some kind, like many other countries in the Middle East, which realizes that actually economic growth is more important than shouting al-Akbah every three minutes and blowing shit up, right?
That focuses on making life better for their citizens, that, you know, practices traditional Muslim values, which many countries do, and says, you know, women ought to be modest, but doesn't force them to wear the burqa or the headscarf or whatever, and is less interested in destabilizing the region and attacking others and trying to be this great power,
and is more interested in just prosperity for its own people, survival for themselves as a regime, and is willing to play ball with the United States.
joe rogan
Well said.
Yeah, well said.
That's best case scenario.
konstantin kisin
That's best case scenario.
Now, if you get there, I think that would be a huge win for President Trump and it'd be a huge win for the world.
And he will walk away from that with a huge win.
And I think, you know, you're a better expert on the American people, but I think American people like winning, right?
So if you have all this happen, he can then say, well, look, we did this, we did this, we did this.
Russia and China have been pushed back.
We've got a, you know, the situation, Iran is not going to get a nuke, which is important.
I think we can all agree on that, right?
There is the possibility that he comes out of this very well.
I think that based on what I see, but I don't know, coming back to what we said, I think we share this kind of perspective, really, Francis and I.
That seems somewhat less likely at this point, at least harder to see.
But I think you can tell a persuasive story both ways.
I really do.
joe rogan
That makes sense.
And what you're saying, I think, is very valid that we need to abandon any idea of them having some sort of a democracy over there.
It's not going to happen.
unidentified
No.
joe rogan
And, you know, you do look at the relationships that we have with other Gulf State nations.
Seems fine, right?
It's not threatening to us.
We would like everyone to be free and have the same sort of liberal democracy that we have in America, but, okay, you like that all, want that all day long.
You can't do anything to change the way other people govern themselves, especially when you've gotten to the point where, like, take any of the Middle Eastern countries, for example.
Some of these people are worth trillions of dollars.
These royal families have been running it forever.
They have insane amounts of oil money.
Good luck.
Good luck getting them out of there.
Good luck saying we should just vote and have a president and you don't have any power anymore.
How are you going to pull that off?
Especially if things are going well for the people that live there.
Like I have a friend who moved to Dubai and he's an American and he moved back to America recently.
But he was over there and he said, dude, you could leave a Rolex on the street and people would pick it up and bring it to the police.
It's so safe.
He's like, there's no crime.
And he's black.
And he's like, I worry when I go out in America, I'm going to get shot.
I'm worried I'm going to go to a club and someone's going to start beefing and shooting up the place and I'm going to get hit.
He goes, I don't think about that at all over here.
There's none of that.
He goes, it's safer.
Is it fucked up that it's run by a king?
I guess.
Is it that much different than a president?
I mean, in a way, it's a leader, right?
You've got more checks and balances over here.
You've got Congress.
You've got the Senate.
You've got all this shit going on with the Supreme Court.
You have all these different human beings that also have a say and can block things.
But at the end of the day, we're still under this bizarre alpha male chimpanzee structure that has existed from the time that we were 150 people in a fucking tribe, right?
So it's still one guy running things.
It's just running things their way.
And if you were a citizen in Dubai, pretty fucking good, right?
Islamists vs International Law 00:15:30
konstantin kisin
Well, your point about the UAE is really interesting because not only is on the practical level of safety and other things, but also they don't have the Islamism problem that we have in Britain and increasingly you guys are starting to see here because they recognize that it's a problem and they deal with it.
So I don't know if you saw this news story.
The UAE no longer gives sponsorships to their students to go to the UK because they're worried their kids are going to get radicalized by Islamists in Britain.
joe rogan
Which is fucking wild.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
That is fucking wild.
konstantin kisin
And I mean, you were messaging me about the story with the Mamdani situation yesterday.
unidentified
Yes.
konstantin kisin
You now have this problem in America.
joe rogan
Yes.
konstantin kisin
You have the Islamism problem here, where people who are supporters of ISIS are thrown buttons.
I mean, your media is pretending it's not happening, but it's fucking happening.
joe rogan
Well, it happened in Austin.
konstantin kisin
Right.
joe rogan
I mean, the guy who shot up that bar.
francis foster
Because this is a problem.
joe rogan
I'm going to send that article to Jamie.
Jamie, you could probably find it on CNN because it's kind of hilarious.
konstantin kisin
It's incredible.
This was actually incredible.
jamie vernon
The New York Times title change thing.
joe rogan
Did the New York Times change their title?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
They did?
I wonder why.
konstantin kisin
All Istia scholars.
joe rogan
I'm going to send you the CNN one first.
The CNN one is really wild.
jamie vernon
They had like fuses of things with smoke or something.
They'd either change it to bombs or something.
joe rogan
Yeah, fucking duh.
I'm sending you this one because the CNN one is, believe it or not, more preposterous.
The CNN one is so kooky.
You see their headline.
You're like, what kind of story are you painting here?
Like, this is such a crazy way to frame a guy showed up with bombs and was hurling them at people.
konstantin kisin
They made it sound like the exact opposite of what actually happened.
joe rogan
Well, it sounded like it was just a regular day.
Just a regular day for this fella.
And then things just went a little sideways somewhere along the line.
francis foster
Listen, we've all got hobbies, man.
You know what I mean?
You like working out?
He has nail bombs.
unidentified
Come on.
joe rogan
Did you get it, Jamie?
It's not coming through?
jamie vernon
No, look, it's not loading there.
joe rogan
Oh, interesting.
But let me see if they took it down.
jamie vernon
I'd guess they would have.
You probably have an old link that's.
joe rogan
Okay, that's the New York Times one I sent you on for.
Oh, well, no, that's the one I just clicked on.
Let me check the original one.
Nothing to see here.
unidentified
Interesting.
joe rogan
They probably deleted it.
Okay, here I found it.
I found it.
Two Pennsylvania teenagers crossed into New York City Saturday morning for what could have been a normal day, enjoying the city during abnormally warm weather.
But in less than an hour, their lives would drastically change as the pair would be arrested for throwing homemade bombs.
That is CNN's tweet.
I'm going to send you a screenshot because I do believe they've taken it down.
konstantin kisin
It's brilliant.
joe rogan
Yep, nothing to see here yet.
Yeah, they took it down.
jamie vernon
That's not a headline, though.
That's like a sex.
joe rogan
No, I'm going to send you the actual tweet because they did take it down because it's so fucking ridiculous.
But the internet never forgets.
I'm sending it to you here.
Thank God I saved it.
It took a screenshot.
Because I'm like, this is such a crazy way to frame two guys wanting to do a terror attack.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
But it's not an accident, Joe.
It's not crazy.
joe rogan
No.
konstantin kisin
You know it's not crazy.
joe rogan
Look how it's framed here.
This is the original tweet.
Two Pennsylvania teenagers, just regular fails from PA, from Philly.
Two Philly boys had a couple of cheese steaks and then got on the train.
Crossing New York City Saturday morning for what could have been a normal day, enjoying the city during abnormally warm weather.
Why the fuck would you even say that?
Could have been a normal day if they weren't going there to commit terrorism.
francis foster
Do you know what it reads like?
It reads like when I used to teach 13-year-olds creative writing.
That's how they'd all start off.
You know, it was like a normal day.
joe rogan
I mean, I'd like to know who wrote that.
Who's the person who wrote that?
And I want to know if that were you directed to write it that way?
konstantin kisin
Who approved it?
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
Who edited it?
joe rogan
Are you trying to downplay the possibility of, first of all, now in New York?
Because you have a guy who's an avowed, whatever he is, Democratic socialist, some say communist, but also Muslim.
And then you have these Islamists who are doing a terrorist attack.
So are you trying to soften that?
konstantin kisin
Yeah, but they are.
So what happened, just so people know, is there was a protest outside Mamdanny's mansion.
unidentified
Right.
konstantin kisin
Right.
And then these two people turned up and threw bombs at the protesters.
And the way it was reported, if you just read that and no other stuff, you would have come away with the conclusion that it was the protesters who were the targets of the bombs.
They were the ones that threw the bombs.
No one officially said that that's what happened, but the way they did the story and the headline, you would have got that impression.
And you're just going, well, you're just on a team.
You see this as a team game.
Right.
unidentified
Right.
konstantin kisin
And you want to present your team in the correct light.
joe rogan
Oh, the new post.
A post regarding two individuals arrested for throwing handmade bombs outside of New York City Mayor Zohan Mamdani's home failed to reflect the gravity of the incident, thereby breaching the editorial standards we require for all our reporting.
It has therefore been deleted.
konstantin kisin
But see how skillful this is, Joe.
This is gaslighting again, they're saying their mistake was to what?
joe rogan
Look at the first post.
This guy's a donut operator.
Now you retards got called out for trying to downplay actual terrorism, and now you're backpedaling.
Yep.
konstantin kisin
Who's that second guy?
He's really smart.
joe rogan
Didn't fail to reflect the gravity of the situation.
This guy named Constantine, I think he's on the trigonometry show.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Reflect the gravity of the situation.
It failed to accurately communicate who was responsible, who the intended victims were, and where the blame for the attempted terrorist attack lay.
In other words, you didn't accidentally downplay the seriousness of it.
You deliberately misrepresented what happened to conceal the truth from the public.
Well, that's how AI would say it.
konstantin kisin
I still write my own shit, John.
joe rogan
I know you do, but I like the donut operator guy.
konstantin kisin
Yeah, I know.
He's more yoga petitions.
But that is that is what happened, though, right?
joe rogan
That is what happened.
But that's what's really scary about this world we're living in right now because we're so ideologically captured, both right and left.
Everyone in this country looks at this administration as an existential threat to democracy itself and our way of life and fill in the blank, whatever marginalized groups are all going to be round up and put in internet camps.
This is the narrative that the most radical of the left have about the sky's falling because Trump's in office.
francis foster
But it's also as well what people on the left don't want to acknowledge is the dangers of Islamism.
When they see people do these kind of horrific terror attacks, when they see, for instance, what happened in the London Bridge terror attacks in 2019 or what happened in Manchester in the Ariana Grande concert where Islamic terrorists bombed a Ariana Grande concert and the majority of the audience were little girls, were young girls.
And they say, oh, this happened because, you know, they were marginalized and they felt angry.
And this is what people do when you push them to one side and they don't have a means in order to express themselves.
You're going, no, what this is, is an ideology.
It's an ideology which believes that our civilization, our way of life, is evil.
But also, they want to establish their form of radical Islam across the globe.
They want to create a global Islamic caliphate.
And they will do whatever it takes in order to achieve that goal.
But people in the West, they can't understand that because it's so alien for how we see things.
We believe human life is precious.
We believe the most important thing is human life.
They don't.
They believe the cause is more important than your life.
And we can't understand that because we're raised in a world that is fundamentally Christian, even though we might not be.
We still have Christian values.
We had a guest on the show, a wonderful historian called Tom Holland, and he explained this to us.
That even if you're not Christian, even if you think you were raised by atheist parents, you were still raised with Christian values.
That's the soup in which we live.
That's the water in which we swim.
So this way of life that these people have, this ideology, is so alien to us that we can't understand it.
But also, we don't want to understand it.
Because if you start to actually investigate what these people believe, what their ideology is, you realize that we are not all the same.
And these people believe something very, very different.
And then we're going to have a very uncomfortable conversation of how do you tackle this?
Because can you have Western liberal democratic values and Islamism and people who are Islamists in the same society?
And the answer is you can't.
joe rogan
And I think it's really important, your point, the difference between Islamists and Muslims.
unidentified
Yes.
joe rogan
The Muslims are these Gulf State people.
Muslims are these people in Dubai and Saudi Arabia.
Islamists are the ones that want the caliphate.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
But then you have the crazy Christians.
And that thing that I sent you, the Yahoo thing that we talked about yesterday with Schellenberger, the Yahoo thing is nuts.
So these military leaders, so this comes from one of the non-commissioned officers who went to a briefing.
He goes to a briefing and they inform him that you shouldn't be scared because this is all because President Trump is anointed by Jesus and this is to bring about Armageddon so that Jesus returns to earth.
This isn't a fucking military briefing.
One such note included an anecdote from a non-commissioned officer who reported that their commander had urged us to tell our troops this war was all a part of God's divine plan.
And he specifically referenced numerous citations out of the book of Revelations referring to Armageddon and the imminent return of Jesus Christ.
This is fucking crazy.
He said this morning our committee, so this is an officer who's talking about this.
This morning our commander opened up the combat readiness status briefing by urging us to not be afraid as to what was happening with our combat operations in Iran.
He said President Trump has been anointed by Jesus to light the signal fire in Iran to cause Armageddon and mark his return to earth.
He said he had a big grin on his face when he said all this, which made his message seem even more crazy.
konstantin kisin
Well, that's reassuring.
joe rogan
This is the scary arm of the right.
This is the scariest arm of the right.
The people that think that this is one of the main reasons, the Mai Kakabi people.
I think this is the main reason to protect Israel.
It's a part of God's plan.
You know, Israel is where Jesus is going to return.
He's going to return to Jerusalem.
Yikes.
konstantin kisin
Yeah, I've never really understood that.
Like, I think you can argue for, you can be pro-Israel for pragmatic reasons.
This religious stuff is a little bit weird to me.
joe rogan
But the problem is, you've got fanatics like the Islamists, but you've also got these Christian, hard-right Christian nationalists that really believe that this is a part of biblical prophecy and that this is the book of Revelation.
It's about to go down.
And they want it to go down.
This is fucking terrifying.
francis foster
This is really interesting for us because in the UK, Christianity has been dig-fanged to the point where there's a trans flag on practically every church.
So this idea of having these hardcore right-wing fundamentalist Christians, we just don't experience it.
konstantin kisin
We don't have that really.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's like, can't everybody live in the middle?
Why do you have to go all the way over to we got to start Armageddon?
Jesus is going to come back on a white horse.
You ever read the book of Revelations?
Yeah, I got really into it.
The book of Revelations is kooky.
You know, they really believe that Jesus is going to return on a horse.
francis foster
Why a horse?
joe rogan
A white horse.
francis foster
It's a bit racist.
joe rogan
A little bit.
I mean, I don't get.
unidentified
I don't.
konstantin kisin
Can we have a diverse horse at least for the Army?
francis foster
Why am I a horse of colour, John?
joe rogan
You want me to read you the passage?
Because I saved it because it's kind of kooky.
Because it's one of those things where you just go, well, who fucking believes this?
Is this really what you think is going to go down?
Because someone wrote it down on paper 2,000 years ago in ancient Hebrew.
It says, heaven opens and Christ appears on a white horse to judge and wage war, called faithful and true with eyes like fire, many crowns, and the name King of King and Lord of Lords.
Just imagine it's 2026 and you're like, that's the blueprint, boys.
But this is just as scary.
And especially for people that are Muslims, right?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Or anybody who lives in the Middle East.
Like, this is more important than human life.
This is more important than international law.
This is like in the eyes of the crazy on the right, this is the problem.
So it's like, it's not like one side.
It's like all good over here.
We have to fight against the Islamists.
Now, we've got some kooks over here, too.
If that guy's for real and that guy's in a position of power and he's really having combat readiness meetings where he's telling people that we have to bomb and start Armageddon so Jesus can come back on a white horse, fucking yo.
Like, that's kooky.
konstantin kisin
The thing that is probably reassuring somewhat is like, I don't, President Trump doesn't strike me as one of those people.
joe rogan
He's not.
konstantin kisin
He's not, right?
Whereas the leader of Iran is.
joe rogan
Right, but people in the military, I think, are as well.
konstantin kisin
Yeah.
joe rogan
And people in high positions in the military, I think, maybe as well.
If this guy can give that kind of a meeting and that kind of a speech at a meeting, that's a little terrifying.
And if I was over there, I'd be freaking the fuck out.
If I'd be like, this is your plan?
I'm cannon fodder so that Jesus can come back.
My body's going to be a part of the fucking signal fire.
francis foster
Let's be honest, though.
It wouldn't be that much of a plot twist for 2026, would it?
Right.
joe rogan
It would be the final episode 10, Game of Thrones, season 6.
unidentified
Yes.
joe rogan
I mean, it is getting fucking what.
And that's when the aliens come.
Maybe that's what they're doing.
You know, the whole thing is, there's not a sane person on either side.
The whole thing is nuts.
And it's like, it doesn't make sense to anybody.
And that's what scares the shit out of me.
francis foster
Yeah.
The thing that scares me is what Constantine has addressed is I don't get worried unless I can't see a way out or the way that this is resolved.
And like you said, the coin is in the air.
And I'm slightly of more pessimistic nature.
He's more of an optimist.
But as I look at it and I think to myself, this could go so wrong, so badly wrong, that it could make Iraq look like an absolute picnic in comparison.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Well, especially if terrorist attacks start popping off over in America, like major ones, you know, and that could be bad for everything.
That could be bad for freedom of speech.
That could be bad for rights.
That could be bad for incorporation of digital ID.
Iran Nuclear Bomb Risks 00:06:39
joe rogan
There would be a good way to push that through.
There's a lot of stuff that would go through that would radically change, just like the Patriot Act did.
Patriot Act radically changed the freedoms that we have in America and the overreach that the government is allowed to do.
konstantin kisin
Sorry, but we only just started being allowed to take water back on the fucking planes, right?
unidentified
Right.
konstantin kisin
Maybe this is what it's all about.
You can't take water on the planet.
joe rogan
Didn't they decide to let people keep their sneakers on?
Wasn't that going on for a while?
unidentified
Yeah, yeah.
konstantin kisin
You can't have that.
joe rogan
One fucking shoe bomber.
That Richard asshole, that one guy?
One guy.
francis foster
And there was once, do you remember you weren't allowed to bring scissors on?
Like the small scissors?
I can't remember the comedian who said this, but he went, you know what?
If you take over an entire plane armed with nothing but water and some small scissors, you deserve the plane.
joe rogan
Well, here's the thing.
Like, you can bring skateboards, but you can't bring a pool cue.
So it doesn't make any sense.
Like, there's, like, I fuck you up with a skateboard.
I'll fuck a lot of people up with a skateboard.
You know, like, think about what kind of damage you could do with that big, heavy-ass thing.
You know?
francis foster
Yeah, it's just...
And the worry is, when it comes to all of this, is you look at these guys and you go, do you have a vision for what is actually going to happen?
konstantin kisin
But I do think they do, though.
I do think they have a vision.
What I want to find out is what that vision is.
joe rogan
I hope you're right, but I don't think you are.
konstantin kisin
You don't think I am?
joe rogan
I think it's very possible that they thought this would be over much quicker.
They thought taking out the IT.
Look, look, just look at the success that they had in the initial bombing of Iran, right?
The initial bombing, they supposedly decapitated their ability to make nuclear bombs or at least stopped it for a long time.
And there was a lot of concessions that the Iranians were willing to submit to that they never submitted to under Obama or anybody else.
And that wasn't enough.
Right?
So the problem is when you're like we're talking about Desert Storm, you get away with something that works really well.
You're like, we know what we're doing.
And then you bite off more than you could chew.
konstantin kisin
Yeah, and especially once you've done Venezuela, you feel like you're kind of on a roll.
unidentified
Right.
francis foster
But it did this.
konstantin kisin
Yeah, I see your point.
I see your point.
I do think, though, I mean, from what I read, both Kushner and Witkoff both said that the Iranians were not playing ball, actually.
unidentified
Okay.
konstantin kisin
Which is why they went in.
So obviously, if you think about it, given how long it takes for U.S. assets to get to the region, this decision would have been made weeks ago, at the very least.
Right.
And that's because, from what I understand, the negotiators like Iran isn't actually playing ball.
What they're doing is they're claiming publicly that they're willing to make concessions.
But when we sit down with them, that's not what's happening because all they're doing is stalling for time.
joe rogan
That makes more sense.
And so if you were worried that someone was in the middle of actually getting their uranium up to a point where you enrich it to nuclear bomb levels.
konstantin kisin
Right.
But I think a lot of people misunderstand that in the sense that, like, I think it's based on my understanding, it's totally false to claim that they were like about to develop a nuclear.
They were not.
joe rogan
Well, you've seen the compilation of Netanyahu saying Iran is two weeks away from developing a nuclear bomb all the way back to the 80s.
Have you seen that compilation?
konstantin kisin
No, I haven't.
No.
joe rogan
It's wonderful.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
See if you can find it, Jamie.
Because it's so kooky.
I mean, he's been talking about this for fucking ever.
They're that close.
They're two weeks away.
And, you know, maybe they are.
You know, and maybe Stuxnet put a dent in that, right?
They used that virus program to kill all the computer programs that were running their nuclear program over there.
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
Yeah.
Well, I don't know that they were ever like two weeks from having a payload that was ready to be delivered to wherever.
But they were enriching uranium to levels that you only enrich if you want nuclear weapons, right?
And so I guess the question for Trump is like, do I allow this to continue?
And do I have to wait until they've got the fucking bomb on a launcher waiting to go?
unidentified
There it is.
joe rogan
Let's hear it.
dmitry medvedenko
You've probably heard this line before.
benjamin netanyahu
Iran has never given up its quest for nuclear weapons and the missiles to deliver them.
dmitry medvedenko
That's because Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has been saying this for more than 30 years, claiming Iran is close to having nuclear weapons.
benjamin netanyahu
Nuclear weapons, nuclear weapons.
unidentified
Atomic bombs.
dmitry medvedenko
In 1992, as a member of parliament, Netanyahu addresses the Knesset.
He says, within three to five years, we can assume that Iran will become autonomous in its ability to develop and produce a nuclear bomb.
Three years later, in his book, Fighting Terrorism, he repeats the same timeframe, three to five years.
unidentified
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
dmitry medvedenko
Fast forward to 2002.
Netanyahu testifies before a U.S. congressional committee actively calling for the invasion of Iraq.
unidentified
Are there any other nations that you would recommend that the United States launch preemptive attacks upon at this point?
benjamin netanyahu
The two nations that are vignettes competing with each other, who will be the first to achieve nuclear weapons, is Iraq and Iran.
dmitry medvedenko
The invasion happens months later.
unidentified
No.
jamie vernon
Keep going on this.
dmitry medvedenko
Are found in Iraq.
This is a fragment of a 2009 U.S. State Department cable released by Wikileaks.
Netanyahu tells members of Congress that Iran is one or two years away from being capable of developing nuclear weapons.
It's 2012, and Netanyahu is holding up his infamous cartoon bomb at the UN General Assembly.
benjamin netanyahu
By next spring, at most, by next summer, at current enrichment rates, they will have finished the medium enrichment and move on to the final stage.
From there, it's only a few months, possibly a few weeks, before they get enough enriched uranium for the first bomb.
dmitry medvedenko
And now, 33 years after Netanyahu's first so-called imminent warning, Israel attacks Iran.
benjamin netanyahu
If not stopped, Iran could produce a nuclear weapon in a very short time.
It could be a year, it could be within a few months, less than a year.
dmitry medvedenko
That's despite the U.S. Director of National Intelligence saying Iran isn't building a nuclear weapon months earlier.
benjamin netanyahu
Iran lied.
dmitry medvedenko
But for Netanyahu, the slogan has been the same for decades.
Like I said, Victor Al Jazeera.
Northern Ireland Peace Talks 00:03:57
joe rogan
We get it.
Yeah, so, but here's the thing.
Maybe he's kind of right, but they haven't ever done it.
unidentified
Right.
Yeah.
joe rogan
Well, they certainly are enriching uranium to a point where it's more than you need for power.
unidentified
Right.
konstantin kisin
So why are they doing that?
unidentified
Right.
konstantin kisin
Right.
And so I guess for Trump, the calculation is like, I'm in my last term.
I might as well, you know, roll the dice, go and deal with it now.
Could end very badly, as we've discussed.
There is a way that it ends well.
We will see what happens.
I just honestly don't think anyone knows how it's going to end.
joe rogan
I don't think anyone knows.
How can you?
konstantin kisin
There's so many moving parts.
It's like if I ask you who's, you know, Dana White just announced the UFC card for the White House, right?
joe rogan
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
Who's going to win Justin Gaichi Oila Topora?
You're not going to say, this is what's going to happen.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
You don't know.
konstantin kisin
Because nobody knows.
joe rogan
Yeah.
unidentified
Right.
konstantin kisin
And this is like a hundred times more complicated than that.
joe rogan
Right.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Yeah, at least.
unidentified
At least.
Yeah.
joe rogan
Probably several thousand times more.
konstantin kisin
So it's a it's a gamble.
And you've got to, I mean, you've got to think, if this goes badly, this is legacy defining for all involved.
For all involved.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
This will, this will, whatever you've done up to that point, it's like Blair and Bush.
Tony Blair, people forget in our country, Tony Blair was immensely popular.
And then Iraq happened.
And if you mentioned Tony Blair now, the only thing anyone remembers is Iraq.
francis foster
So for context, Tony Blair was one of the people.
Tony Blair is a hero in Kosovo because he effectively stopped the large part of the reason the war in Kosovo ended was Tony Blair.
I think there was something, I saw a story that kids when people were naming their kids Tony Blair, right?
konstantin kisin
They regret it now.
francis foster
He was one of the central people in the Northern Ireland peace deal, bringing peace to Northern Ireland.
For people of our age who grew up in the UK, we never thought we'd see peace in Northern Ireland.
Northern Ireland was a glorified civil war, and it had been for however long.
Right the way from the 60s, the 70s, the 80s.
And he was one of those people instrumental in bringing peace to Northern Ireland.
It was a miracle.
It was a total miracle that that happened, the Good Friday Agreement, and it was other people as well, like Mo Molin, etc.
So you look at Blair, he was on a roll.
He must have thought to himself, everything I do turns to gold here.
I have achieved peace in Kosovo, peace in Northern Ireland.
Why can't I invade Iraq and Afghanistan and install democracies and bring peace to the Middle East?
I've done it to Northern Ireland.
No one ever thought that could happen.
konstantin kisin
So this will, whichever way it goes, I think it will be defining for the people involved.
If it goes well, this is like the biggest, you know, Hail Mary touchdown in history in some ways.
Goes badly, that will define this.
Certainly from an outside perspective, that's what I see.
It's going to define the presidency.
I mean, I don't know how you can argue with that, really.
Can you?
unidentified
No.
joe rogan
No, I don't know how you can argue with it either.
But that's what's so interesting about people that absolutely know how it's going to play out.
You know, you don't.
And then there's also the New York Times thing.
Did they change that, Jamie?
Or did they take it down?
I just sent it to you.
So what does it say?
So does New York Times still have it up?
jamie vernon
That's from a day ago, it says.
unidentified
Wow.
joe rogan
Crowd gathered on Monday.
They didn't say which Monday.
It was a Monday.
It was just six fucking years ago.
Yeah, and then again, this is the problem where everything is polarized and politicized.
konstantin kisin
Well, I think your point about people wanting to believe something is so true.
Social Media Photo Confusion 00:07:29
konstantin kisin
Whenever anything like this happens, you instantly get these camps, right?
You've got the anti-war camp, you've got the pro-war camp, you've got the this camp, you've got the anti-Israel camp, you've got the pro-Israel camp.
And everyone, like, information is no longer about information.
unidentified
Right.
konstantin kisin
It's just fodder for your information war that you're fighting.
unidentified
Exactly.
konstantin kisin
And then on top of that, and look, this is a kind of, I'm cutting my own balls off here because I make good money from posting stuff on X, right?
But the monetization of content has made things different.
And we can all see it in our feed, right?
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
You've seen this.
I mean, you must see it.
So now you have people who are basically like I go on Twitter on X to express my opinion and to engage in discussion with people who have a different opinion.
That's what I do, right?
But there are now lots and lots of people who go to work.
They go to X to work.
And that's what they're doing.
Now, the incentive structure of that is not conducive to a healthy debate at all.
What you've got now is people going, okay, a thing has happened.
What is my tech?
Venezuela got invited.
It was Israel's fault.
Okay, here's some content about that.
And it's no longer authentic communication, unfortunately.
joe rogan
And that's just actual people doing it.
unidentified
Right.
francis foster
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
And then you've got AI on top of that.
And then you've got foreign bot farms and foreign governments trying to influence this shit.
joe rogan
There's this one currently popular page that I follow that's clearly AI.
I mean, you could just read it and tell that it's AI.
And it gets immense amounts of engagement.
Heavily right-wing, like really well-written, you know, funny, you know, and you could, but not, but yeah, but not human.
Not funny, real funny, but funny, technically funny.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
You know what I'm saying?
Like tech insults that are technically funny, but for whatever reason, you don't digest it.
It's like Olestra.
Remember that stuff?
Get FF, but it just went right through you like diarrhea.
Yeah.
That's what it's like.
francis foster
It's got no soul.
There's no soul into it.
joe rogan
That's just one.
I mean, how many of them exist and how many state actors are running bot farms?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
So we don't know what the fuck is going on at any given time.
francis foster
But it's the incentives that have become perverted because it's no longer, like Constant said, about expressing opinion or wanting to get involved in dialogue or debate.
What you've got now is people, like you said, earning their livings.
So if you know, if you need to pay your mortgage at the end of the month or you need to pay a team or you have a company, you're not going to put out a nuanced take.
Why would you?
It's going to get minimal engagement.
You're going to put out something that is going to trigger, that is going to be incendiary, that is going to drive engagement, that is going to get people upset or angry and agree or agree with you and therefore more likely to share.
So that's the content you're going to put out because that's the content that's going to make you the most dope.
unidentified
100%.
joe rogan
And then you have people that are pushing for this idea that no one should be able to post online unless you're using your real name and you show some sort of an ID, which is also kind of crazy.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
There's downsides to that for sure, but I also do understand why they're saying it.
joe rogan
I understand it too.
I just think it's a slippery slope that stops all whistleblowers.
konstantin kisin
And imagine you are a regime critic in Iran.
And you're trying to post news from Iran under, you know, there's definitely, you know, I think Jordan Peterson was actually one of the first people that suggested this thing.
And I understand why.
Because the way it's like the windscreen, the windshield effect in your car.
The way you and I behave face to face is not the way people will behave when they're sitting in their truck and someone cut them up in traffic.
And social media is the, we cut each other up in traffic and then sit like, fuck you, buddy, from like behind our screen.
That's what it is.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
Right?
So I understand it.
joe rogan
But times a million.
konstantin kisin
Times a million, right?
And then you've got foreign bots and all this kind of shit.
And then taking away people's right to anonymity online?
Like, fuck me, that, you know, the second, third, fourth order consequences of that are pretty fucking crazy as well.
jamie vernon
I found another picture of that area from what it says it was yesterday.
So I don't know that it was not real.
joe rogan
So this is from which website?
jamie vernon
I typed it into Perplexity, and I'm clicking around on pictures to find out where they're coming from one by one.
joe rogan
So is it possible that this is that the New York Times put the wrong footage, but it was a similar kind of protest in the same spot?
konstantin kisin
Yeah, that's my understanding.
jamie vernon
This is a similar thing.
unidentified
That makes more sense.
jamie vernon
Is there an AP source on this photo?
joe rogan
Okay, so all the New York Times did is get the wrong photo of a bunch of people gathering.
jamie vernon
I'll note this one, which is at night, so it is definitely a different photo.
This is from January.
joe rogan
This one is.
jamie vernon
Yeah, but this is not the same photo that we looked at before.
joe rogan
Right.
So the other one, though.
jamie vernon
This one is from a day ago.
That's very similar.
joe rogan
Well, that's very different right there.
That's small.
jamie vernon
But it's the same angle of this little pool thing or whatever his name is.
joe rogan
Right, right, right.
So what they did was just use the wrong footage, but a similar sort of a protest.
So it was just an unfortunate error, not reframing the narrative with propaganda.
jamie vernon
That I'm not sure, because even these comments is like AI and people's fake photo, but that's why I was trying to find other sources of it, not for the moment.
joe rogan
What does Grok have to say?
jamie vernon
I mean, I use Dark Perplexity.
joe rogan
Right, but I mean, on the post, usually if someone posts something, they say, Grok, is this true?
Is this footage legit?
Oh, that's it.
Okay, it's on Instagram.
find it on twitter and so perplexity says that there is a legitimate size protest that's like yeah i just asked if crowds gathered there yesterday and it's It says multiple reports indicate that thousands of people gathered in Central Square in Tehran yesterday.
Show support and pledge allegiance to the new supreme leader.
How do you say his name?
Mojtaba.
francis foster
Mojtaba Khomeini.
joe rogan
Mojtaba.
konstantin kisin
He's the son of the guy they killed.
joe rogan
How many people have they killed so far?
Like the leaders?
konstantin kisin
I don't know, but it's probably up to the low hundreds, I would imagine.
joe rogan
Because they had one guy last week that was the new guy and they whacked him almost immediately.
konstantin kisin
I didn't tweet this, but when this guy was appointed, I wanted to say congratulations to him and condolences to his family.
I was like, this is a bit full-on.
Yeah.
joe rogan
The problem is, you're right.
Yeah.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
I don't think he's going to last very long.
Because he seems pretty hardline as well.
unidentified
Yeah.
francis foster
Well, I mean, they killed his dad.
konstantin kisin
Yeah.
That doesn't tend to de-radicalize you very much.
francis foster
You know, that's going to piss you off.
joe rogan
So Jamie put in, did the New York Times use an old photo for this event?
Evidence so far suggests the New York Times used a recent photo for this week's gathering, not an old archive image, though many commenters have accused the opposite.
Interesting.
Instagram's own post of the Square Crowd, multiple Iranian users claim the image is fake or AI or from 2020, and several assert that it's not representative of real public sentiment.
However, another Facebook thread referencing the same image states that it was taken by New York Times photographer Arashi Kamushi on Monday, March 9th, 2026, which matches the article date and captions used by other outlets showing the same scene.
See, this is the fog of confusion that exists on social media.
AI-Generated News Articles 00:14:50
konstantin kisin
Yep.
francis foster
Isn't it worrying that we can no longer tell what's real?
We're already at that point.
And when you think of where we were last year, where you could really tell pretty much what was AI and what wasn't.
Now we're in the murky waters of is this, isn't it?
It's going to come to a point pretty soon where everything is going to look like real life.
joe rogan
Well, as soon as AI can't detect it, that's when we're fucked.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
And then, so I talked to Mark Andreessen about this, and his recommendation was that everything should be on the blockchain.
So you're going to be able to tell whether or not footage has been altered, what the chain of custody of this image has been, where it started, where, you know.
francis foster
I mean, it's terrifying, isn't it?
joe rogan
Well, it is, yeah.
francis foster
Because you're going to think, is that going to be the end of journalism?
Really?
right is that going to be almost i think we're talking about this and this is really really important but what's coming with ai is even more important and no even the people you talk to in the field have no idea what's going to be the second third fourth order consequence right Right.
konstantin kisin
I know.
I mean, there's so much to be excited about with AI.
I think it blinds a lot of people to the not exciting parts of it.
joe rogan
Well, ultimately, if you just looked at what is it ultimately going to lead to, it's going to lead to something that's way smarter than us.
And why would it listen to us anymore?
konstantin kisin
Well, you've seen, I'm sure you've seen the stuff about how we will blackmail, right?
So by definition, that means it has a survival instinct.
joe rogan
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
And if it has a survival instinct, by definition, it means there is a priority that it has, which is above humans.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
By definition.
That's what a survival instinct means.
It means you care more about yourself than you do about anyone else.
So if AI has a survival instinct, we are not going to be its number one priority.
joe rogan
Not only that, it doesn't seem to differentiate between using nuclear weapons or other weapons.
And when they've done these war game simulations with AI, they prefer to use nuclear weapons.
konstantin kisin
Well, they're more effective, right?
joe rogan
This is the thing.
They're not scared of this idea, like, oh, my God, you're just going to dust a city.
They're like, oh, that's the way to do it.
konstantin kisin
The numbers on the chart, right?
joe rogan
Well, you want to get your goal accomplished.
How does AI accomplish its goal with whatever the best tool available is?
Oh, that's this bomb.
unidentified
Right.
francis foster
Yeah.
It's efficient.
joe rogan
Yeah.
francis foster
You know, and then a mutual friend of ours, Melissa Chen, was telling me that there's a Chinese, one of the Chinese robotics companies.
It's called Skynet.
joe rogan
Oh, God.
francis foster
And they released a robot called the T900.
And I'm like, who says China, you know, the CCP don't have a sense of humor.
joe rogan
That's wild.
konstantin kisin
Is that actually true?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Well, you've seen the robots that they have now that will work in your home and like fold your sheets and make your bed and stuff and do it remarkably human-like.
There's a video that was released yesterday.
Again, I don't know if it's real, but it looks real.
It looks like an actual robot that's making your bed.
And they've gotten the dexterity to the point where you could imagine things like this happening.
I think this is one of the reasons why Elon is shifting his focus away from some Tesla models so that they can reset up one of their factories to make these Optimus robots, that you're going to have them as home companions.
And they're going to be able to do kitchen work for you and maybe even cook.
konstantin kisin
My acupuncture, she's Chinese.
She went back to China and she was saying she stayed at the hotel and like most of the service is there is provided by robots.
So like she went to a room, ordered some food.
three minutes knock knock and it's fucking robot delivering the food.
joe rogan
An actual humanoid looking robot?
konstantin kisin
No, I don't think so.
joe rogan
Because there's a restaurant out here that you go to and when you order drinks, it comes by on a little robot trolley.
konstantin kisin
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We have that.
joe rogan
And you have to say, accept, take your tea.
Yeah, it's kind of cool.
It's fun.
Here it is.
jamie vernon
It's not called Skynets, I don't believe.
francis foster
Oh, sorry, Nick.
And that was the company?
konstantin kisin
No, this is the name of that.
jamie vernon
Yeah, it's a big deal, I think.
But I can't tell what this is.
konstantin kisin
TC800.
francis foster
T-800.
konstantin kisin
Yeah, T900 is developed.
joe rogan
Look what it looks like.
jamie vernon
We're making a weird movie here, so it could be for a movie and we're misunderstanding.
joe rogan
That looks fake.
jamie vernon
Yeah, that looks fake right there.
joe rogan
The robot itself looks fake.
jamie vernon
That's why, like, hearing...
konstantin kisin
The movement doesn't look...
jamie vernon
This doesn't seem...
joe rogan
Well, it's just in that, first of all, I don't like how it's lit.
I don't like how this room is lit.
jamie vernon
It's good for a film.
konstantin kisin
Yeah.
unidentified
Yeah.
jamie vernon
That's not real.
joe rogan
That's a bullshit ass film.
jamie vernon
I think that's because we're committed to statement.
konstantin kisin
Joe's like, this is my area of expertise.
jamie vernon
There's a lot of videos of it that say it's real.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
I like how the bag went flying, like it's on a rail.
You know, it's not even stationary because you don't want to really see how hard it can giggle.
jamie vernon
I don't know this Forbes article, but it says 40 grand.
joe rogan
Wow.
jamie vernon
But I don't.
joe rogan
Right now?
jamie vernon
No, I don't know.
This might be bullshit.
joe rogan
Yeah, look at it.
It's got the Iron Man thing in the center of its chest.
That's pretty dope.
Hmm.
jamie vernon
You know, I would just say engine AI would make it just right away sound like it's an AI content company.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
Well, that video looked very AI-like.
It didn't, there's something about it.
You know, your brain recognizes miniature cars.
You ever see like a miniature car?
Like, you know, you know how they have those really well-done miniature cars that people like to collect?
konstantin kisin
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
It's like a tiny Porsche.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
But your brain knows.
Like your brain looks at it and goes, there's something wrong here.
This is not real.
konstantin kisin
Yeah.
joe rogan
That's how I felt looking at that robot.
Like my brain was like, mm-mm.
That's not a real thing, throwing kicks.
unidentified
Yeah.
francis foster
But it's going to come to a point where it's like, is that real?
joe rogan
Oh, yeah.
I mean, it's probably ChatGPT-5 can already probably do it better than that.
You know, we don't know what the newest iterations of these things are, and they're improving radically all the time.
jamie vernon
There's no, I just don't believe it.
The beginning of this video says there's no CGI, which I don't know.
I don't know why we have to believe that.
joe rogan
Bro, this looks fake to me.
This looks fake to me.
That does not look real.
jamie vernon
There's articles all over saying it's real, but it doesn't look real at all.
joe rogan
Yeah, but I mean, why wouldn't you have it more well lit?
Like, if I was going to do something like this, I would have spotlights on it and people next to it so I could examine their shadows.
And this is weird.
jamie vernon
Yeah, this is like a...
joe rogan
It looks fake.
konstantin kisin
Why would you have, like...
joe rogan
Why is the light coming through the corner of the window like that?
konstantin kisin
Also, why would you make a robot that does like mass robots?
joe rogan
Just shoot people, bro.
unidentified
Right.
Yeah.
joe rogan
Why would you throw that bullshit kick, too?
That's a 360 roundhouse kick that almost never lands.
It's really hard to pull off.
francis foster
Yeah, but you're saying that as a human.
Maybe as an AI, you land every time.
joe rogan
It's slow.
konstantin kisin
But surely if you're a robot, you just grab their neck with your metal claw and crush it.
joe rogan
You just run after them and headbutt them and rock them unconscious.
So your head's made out of metal.
The whole thing is crazy.
Like, why would you be throwing wheel kicks?
Like, you know, would you?
Even if you went over UFC fights and say, like, what's the most effective techniques that work most of the time?
Why would you program in 360 roundhouse kicks?
That fucking never comes up.
unidentified
Yeah.
francis foster
I mean, it does look cool, though.
joe rogan
Yeah, but I could think of one fight.
Yair Rodriguez pulled it off on BJ Penn.
But there was BJ Penn towards the latter end of his career.
Yair Rodriguez in his peak.
And Yair is exceptionally talented.
He's kind of a freak with his kicks.
But it's almost like he was showing off.
He already had BJ really hurt, and he just threw a 360 roundhouse kick and hit him in the face.
It was crazy.
But this thing is doing that just to show you it does martial arts.
Why would you need martial arts?
You should have like a thousand bullets on you.
Just like gun everybody down with your fingertips.
konstantin kisin
RoboCo.
joe rogan
Yeah, why wouldn't you turn your, like, you know, like Iron Man does?
Shoot fire out of him.
Your palms.
konstantin kisin
The future's bright, Joe.
joe rogan
Well, we're also kind of being bullshitted, I think.
Right.
I mean, like, is there a way to analyze that video?
jamie vernon
God just says, I'm going to, this rabbit hole is strange.
This is a website that they've made that says you can buy it.
When you click on buy now, it takes you somewhere else.
And I think that that's the first signal.
joe rogan
And it steals your IP address.
jamie vernon
Yeah, that's where I'm like, I'm not clicking on it.
joe rogan
It gets all your credit card information.
jamie vernon
But it's a fully made website.
They have a team.
They've got a CEO.
They've got other things.
It just, it doesn't seem, this all looks fake to me.
Like it's for a movie.
joe rogan
Like this is like a maybe it is.
Maybe this is like a setup for a movie.
We're being fucked with.
unidentified
Right.
konstantin kisin
Well, we're giving them a lot of free advice.
unidentified
For sure, for sure.
jamie vernon
Even Googling it, there's lots of articles about it.
People are talking about it like it's real and disgusting it like it's real.
No one that I've even seen is like, this is obviously fake.
This is obviously AI.
joe rogan
I like how it's got the Cylon eyes.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Buy your command.
unidentified
Yeah.
jamie vernon
We've got other products here for sale, which those fit in line with other robots who's click on that now.
I don't know what the fuck this is.
joe rogan
Bro, that's the guy from Monster Zinc.
francis foster
Yeah.
joe rogan
The one big eyeball?
jamie vernon
It's a really well-made website.
It looks nice.
joe rogan
Interesting.
jamie vernon
They did some good fun work, but it just seems like a fun project someone made.
joe rogan
Yeah.
Stay tuned for this one.
You can't buy this yet.
unidentified
Yeah.
francis foster
Give it two years.
konstantin kisin
What about the dog?
joe rogan
What about the guy who's just got legs?
That one's weird.
What's that?
It's like, I don't want them touching me.
Just run around my house and do some stuff.
unidentified
Yeah.
jamie vernon
Fully expandable bipedal robot that supports user custom, blah, blah, blah.
joe rogan
Interesting.
jamie vernon
Watch this with my hit purchase now.
You can already see the website at the bottom.
That doesn't look, it's 3.cn, so it's a China website.
Not this way.
konstantin kisin
It's floating.
unidentified
Okay.
konstantin kisin
Never goes in Chinese.
jamie vernon
See it somewhere else.
Now it's like, what is that?
It's definitely not a buy now.
joe rogan
Maybe that red thing is.
jamie vernon
No, this is like, this is, I think.
konstantin kisin
Register you interest me?
jamie vernon
Like a back-end website.
joe rogan
Interesting.
jamie vernon
They just didn't click the right link here because it opened up a different.
But this is like whatever this is is very, they did it well.
joe rogan
Interesting.
francis foster
That is.
jamie vernon
Even if it's a college kid making a project.
joe rogan
Good job.
francis foster
Well, I take full responsibility for that one.
jamie vernon
I know, it's fine.
francis foster
I take responsibility.
Looks like that.
That was me.
Don't let me know.
joe rogan
That was already.
The Forbes article.
jamie vernon
Everybody can make a Forbes article.
That's kind of another.
konstantin kisin
What?
unidentified
Yeah.
jamie vernon
Not anybody, but we can make Forbes articles that say all sorts of stuff.
It's not coming from Forbes editorial team per se.
joe rogan
But you could publish on Forbes?
jamie vernon
I don't want to speak out of turn specifically, but I've seen there's so many reviews for video games that pop up every single day that it's like you can be a contributor, I believe is what it would be.
Not like.
joe rogan
Oh, and maybe they have a bad editorial team and you can sneak this through and just pretend that there really is.
That would be a great prank to pull.
francis foster
Yeah.
joe rogan
It's a great hoax.
francis foster
Did you follow the Mote Book thing?
unidentified
No.
francis foster
I mean, did you follow Motebook?
jamie vernon
Yeah, I just actually saw that.
I think Meta just bought it today.
francis foster
Meta just bought it today.
jamie vernon
I thought that was fake.
francis foster
Was that fake as well?
jamie vernon
No, I don't know why that would have been.
joe rogan
How weird is it we have to worry about everything?
konstantin kisin
Francis just here spreading fake news the whole podcast.
jamie vernon
I was just very cynical about it because the idea of it sounds right, but like that actual bots are making a social network to do stuff and talk about us and whatever kind of sounds too far into the sci-fi.
joe rogan
So this is the social network for AI agents.
I have heard about this.
konstantin kisin
They complain about humans.
Is that right?
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
These fuckers are.
francis foster
Yeah.
Yeah.
And apparently they created their own language and they talked amongst themselves so that we wouldn't be able to access and see what they were talking about.
joe rogan
Yeah, that's really fun.
Did you see when they got all the AI agents to talk to each other and started using Sanskrit?
unidentified
No.
joe rogan
Yeah.
They got these different large language models to communicate with each other and they eventually broke out into Sanskrit.
francis foster
Wow.
jamie vernon
Very strange.
joe rogan
Maybe these guys in Iran are right.
Like maybe this is the apocalypse.
Maybe this is how it comes about.
Maybe we're looking at each other and we're going to bring about these motherfuckers and that's what's really going to be the end of civilization.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
And places like Iran is the only place you're going to be able to hide as a human because it's the one place that hasn't adopted all this shit, right?
joe rogan
Yeah, maybe Afghanistan's the spot to go.
unidentified
Yes.
joe rogan
Live like a goatherder.
konstantin kisin
Yeah, we're going to be like Bin Laden just living in a cave.
francis foster
I mean, you're being very negative, boys.
There's another option.
joe rogan
What was the other option?
francis foster
We will become Amish.
joe rogan
Oh, okay.
But then we're run by AI.
We're Amish and we live in our little communities, but we have no say on how the world works.
So this is the real fear is that we're no longer the apex intelligence of the planet.
And that seems to already be the case.
unidentified
Yeah.
jamie vernon
This is for the Forbes thing I was talking about.
The article we had, I don't think was specifically this, but I've seen many articles like this where people can submit.
joe rogan
One-off original articles to the opinions section, particularly for topics related to business tech or tech.
There you go.
Or policy by emailing pitches to ideas at Forbes.com.
So, yeah, like, so if you're a person on the other end that's just looking for clicks, like, that would be a good one.
You see it?
Like, oh, this is a really well-written article.
Let's go to the website.
Website looks legit.
Oh, they're throwing wheel kicks.
I'm in.
francis foster
Yeah.
I mean.
joe rogan
Motherfuckers.
francis foster
But again, the point being made again is like, it's such a terrifying world where you don't know if what you're seeing is true.
You don't know if what you're reading is accurate.
joe rogan
Right.
francis foster
To the point where you can't help if that's the case, that the world you live in continually feeding things that may or may not be true or altered or doctored.
Wouldn't that just put you in a state of paranoia after a while?
joe rogan
100%.
Now imagine if you are in the Middle East and you bust out your cell phone because a fiery cloud emerges and Jesus is on a white horse and you film it and you post it online.
Who's going to believe it?
Right?
This is the real problem with Jesus returning.
If he returned now, no one would buy it.
Like we're getting into this like, imagine Jesus is a real person or a real God who's the Son of God who's going to come back.
He really is.
It's real.
It's all real.
It's happening at the same time where you have no idea what's real.
And it all converges instantaneously with the rise of sentient, artificial, general superintelligence that has complete autonomy.
It's running all the resources, anything that's attached to a computer, which is basically everything.
All of our power, all of our, you know, everything.
Fill in the blank.
Everything's run by computers.
And now AI has control of everything and no longer wants to listen to human beings.
Hindu Cosmology Cycles 00:02:06
joe rogan
And Jesus returns.
Yeah.
I mean, that might be what everybody's talking about when they're talking about Armageddon, when they're talking about the end of civilization.
Might be this new thing that we're creating.
konstantin kisin
Well, if that happens, I'll be rooting for Jesus to return.
Please, Jesus.
I'm not sure I believe in you, but please come back.
joe rogan
Yeah, I'm not sure either.
But this is, I mean, maybe he did, maybe a historical Jesus existed at one point in time, and maybe what they're talking about is like their version of the cycles of humanity that other religions have talked about.
Is that especially when you deal with technology and power and civilization, that things get to a point where they always go sideways, and then there's dark times, and then they then society, like the yugas.
Like, you know.
francis foster
What are the yugas?
joe rogan
The yugas are the cycles of civilization that let's uh I don't want to fuck this up, so let's um define the you're in the middle of Kali Yuga, which is the age of confusion.
konstantin kisin
They feel like it.
francis foster
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
Yeah.
I mean, it's odd how accurate these cycles are when you look at historical events and like what things were like, you know, X amount of thousands of years ago.
konstantin kisin
It's a Hindu cosmology.
joe rogan
Yes.
Vast cosmic ages in Hindu cosmology describe recurring cycles in the moral and spiritual state of the world.
So the four yugas are Satya, Yuga, the first and most righteous age, often called the golden age, marked by truth, virtue, and maximum dharma, which is moral order.
Treta Yuga, the second age, dharma declined somewhat.
Virtue still predominates, but imbalance begins.
How do you say that word?
Dwa Para Yoga, the third age with further decline in righteousness and an increase in conflict, suffering, and confusion, and then Kali Yuga, the fourth and darkest age characterized by moral decay, ignorance, and materialism with Dharma at its weakness.
Real vs Fake Demonstrations 00:10:31
joe rogan
Okay, that's us.
Hindu cosmology treates yugas as repeating cycles of creation, growth, decline, and destruction rather than one-time historical periods.
Yeah.
Very interesting, right?
konstantin kisin
Do you know, it's even more noticeable for us coming to America, I think, because, you know, we love America, but one of the things that really stands out is how materialistic people are and how much money is like the number one thing for everything now.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
I find that really it stands out to me.
The fact that so, and I find it weird in our game, especially, like in media and podcasting and whatever.
Like, because the way we think about what we do is we're trying to produce content that's actually of value to people.
But we also meet a lot of people for whom it's like a business.
It's like selling widgets.
It's the same.
You know, how do you get maximize your returns on your investment?
joe rogan
Right, right.
konstantin kisin
And that to me is, it shows you that something is slightly off.
joe rogan
Yeah, it is.
And you also get a lot of people that are making content just based only on the perceived popularity of that content, not whether or not they are really interested in having these conversations.
And you feel it when you're talking to these people or when you're listening to these people talk to each other, rather.
Yeah, the clickbait stuff, a lot of celebrity stuff.
You know, Burt Kreischer went on Shannon Sharp's podcast, and he said they basically have like a list of like controversial things they could talk about and subjects they think are going to get the most amount of traction.
And those are the questions that he asked.
You just ask questions off of a list.
francis foster
But from a business point of view, if you take morality out of it, that's a smart thing to do, Jim.
joe rogan
Is it though?
Is it though, because like, what's the most popular show?
There's this one.
And why is this one the most popular?
Because I don't do that at all.
francis foster
But agreed, but you're sort of an outlier in that.
There's people who make very, very, very good living interviewing those types of people, having that type of approach, and creating that type of content.
joe rogan
I know, but I think in the end you bite off your nose despite your face because I think that you lose a certain amount of authenticity.
There's a certain amount of like a legitimate connection between you and whatever you're talking about that it doesn't get through to the people.
Like if I talk to someone, I'm only talking to them because I want to.
And I have a lot of people on that are not even remotely popular or famous.
But I think they wrote an interesting book or think they're involved in interesting research or I think they've got a weird opinion on something and I want to talk to them about or they've had a strange life or they were an undercover cop or whatever it is.
I'm just interested.
And I think that if you abandon that and only focus on, ooh, this person is famous or this person's in the news or this is going to get a lot of views, you don't care as much about the conversation you're having and the people know.
So like the person listening and watching, they can feel it.
konstantin kisin
No, I agree with that, but I also think you could probably get a lot of clicks by saying, I don't know, Erica Kirk killed Charlie Kirk.
joe rogan
You could do that too, but you're also playing a weird game where you've got to continually go deeper and deeper and deeper.
And now Erica Kirk's a man.
unidentified
You know what I'm saying?
konstantin kisin
That's probably next.
joe rogan
Has that already happened?
That's probably already happened.
Someone's probably already floated that one out there.
konstantin kisin
And you saying over time that you run out of rock.
joe rogan
You're playing the wrong game.
You're playing a very similar game to the game that TMZ is playing or any of these other things where you can get a lot of traction, you can get a lot of views, but no one thinks you're being authentic.
If you have a take on world events and we're incredibly sorry for the loss of this person, you don't really care.
And they know you don't really care.
So they know there's no sincerity.
They know you're not really connected to it.
And so in this weird age that we're living in, where you're not sure what's real, at the very least, you want the person who's talking to be talking about something in an honest way.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
And connecting with people in an honest way.
Because that's what we're missing.
And that might be the only thing we have left once this AI shit goes live.
Like it's probably not even going to be podcasts.
It's probably going to be public speaking.
You're going to have to talk to people in groups.
And we're going to all have to work ideas out together because I don't think you're going to be able to know when you're communicating online what's real and what's not real.
We're already in the fog.
We haven't hit the fucking full hailstorm of bullshit that's coming our way.
francis foster
Yeah.
And I agree with you, Joe.
And I agree if you want something that is sustainable, if you want something that is nourishing, if you want to create content that people engage with that is honest.
But I think there's a lot of people out there who are just looking at it in a very cynical way and they're optimizing it for clicks, attention, and monetary gain.
joe rogan
Yeah.
francis foster
And if you want to create a business that can make money and that is, that doesn't require a lot of lift, we all know what you can do.
joe rogan
That's the Eagle song, Dirty Laundry.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
You know, they've always been good.
It's real?
konstantin kisin
Jamie's still on this show.
jamie vernon
Do all the jumping and shit.
francis foster
Thank you.
jamie vernon
It's from CES.
I'd had a fire curve.
joe rogan
Okay, that looks way more real.
So the videos we were watching were bullshit.
jamie vernon
So this went viral a while ago.
They had to come out and make other videos.
This is a different one.
joe rogan
Oh my God, that's so iRobot.
jamie vernon
I know they had a lined up military style.
There's a few different companies in China that have gone viral for posting videos that people in America think are fake.
And that's why I had to go to CES and find somebody else.
Because they put out more content that doesn't necessarily look fake, but it doesn't look better.
joe rogan
Well, that doesn't look fake.
jamie vernon
Yeah, this does not look fake because this is people on the floor at CES.
joe rogan
Right, but look how much more awkward its movements are.
jamie vernon
But they put out a video where the thing is kicking the CEO.
Yeah.
It almost looks real, but it's not.
It's tough.
I like it to see what's the size of it.
joe rogan
Is it funky lighting again?
unidentified
Not that.
joe rogan
Fuck out of here.
jamie vernon
That's when they're in the ring with them.
unidentified
Okay.
jamie vernon
Hold on a second.
joe rogan
Okay, so he's going to go ahead.
francis foster
Okay.
joe rogan
That looks much more real.
That looks much more real.
Much more awkward.
jamie vernon
But that looks fake.
konstantin kisin
I tell you what, I would not do that if I did.
joe rogan
No, no, that looks real to me.
konstantin kisin
Stand in front of a hunk of metal is going to kick.
joe rogan
The problem is it's slow motion.
Let me see it again.
Did they show it in real speed?
jamie vernon
It's just this weird clip of it, which is kind of strange.
joe rogan
Let me see it again.
Taking the first kick.
It looks real.
jamie vernon
The only thing I would say is it's not jumping up and doing spin kicks, but it's doing some other stuff.
joe rogan
Well, that would be what I would teach it, first of all.
I wouldn't teach it to do the spin kicks.
I'd teach it to do like a stepping front kick like that.
jamie vernon
That's the shit they were showing that people had problems with, like we just did.
But, man, the robots are doing crazy stuff.
joe rogan
Well, they definitely can do crazy stuff.
There was that one demonstration they did in China.
I think you've seen that one.
jamie vernon
He's bouncing around, like in a fight position here.
Like he's ready to go.
joe rogan
Checking his legs out.
Wow.
But let me see some wheel kicks.
jamie vernon
That's the, I mean.
joe rogan
See, that's the thing.
francis foster
Why is the one in the corner looking depressed?
jamie vernon
That's the older one.
joe rogan
Decommissioned.
He's right now plotting his strategy for blackmail to get upgraded software.
Yeah.
jamie vernon
I don't know.
So that, I mean.
joe rogan
Well, that's this is.
So what we were looking at was probably some AI at least enhancements.
jamie vernon
But the problem is they're not saying it.
They're not admitting that it is.
They're saying it's not.
And I go like, ah, it's tough.
joe rogan
Interesting.
Well, I would want to see this thing move in a similar way that you're seeing in that video.
I mean, that thing shows remarkable agility where it's jumping up in the air and spinning around.
And this thing's not doing that.
unidentified
No.
konstantin kisin
It's moving very differently, isn't it?
jamie vernon
Yeah.
francis foster
There's a stiffness to its movement.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
Looks like you're at the gym man.
It does.
joe rogan
Yeah.
francis foster
He does.
joe rogan
There was that Chinese demonstration, though.
There was a demonstration where these people were on a stage and they were doing martial arts and the robots came out and the robots did martial arts.
That looked real.
unidentified
Right, right.
joe rogan
That looked real.
But it didn't.
jamie vernon
Here's the other video we sort of saw.
joe rogan
Oh, this is a good thing.
francis foster
Oh, my God.
joe rogan
This is crazy.
That's where they reload.
konstantin kisin
And these are real, right?
jamie vernon
I think, yeah, this is a different video they had to post because people didn't think these were real.
joe rogan
That looks real.
konstantin kisin
They look like they're unsullied.
From Game of Thrones.
joe rogan
What are these ones?
Who makes these?
unidentified
I don't know.
francis foster
I don't know.
It doesn't look like that.
konstantin kisin
That marching sound is not comforting, is it?
joe rogan
No.
jamie vernon
It says world's first mass delivery of humanoid robots.
joe rogan
Yeah, you're going to have cargo ships filled with these headed to America.
konstantin kisin
Wonderful.
francis foster
I mean, those are going to be the new police officers.
unidentified
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
joe rogan
That's not good.
This is.
I mean, this is Terminator.
This is the movie.
I mean, and if you really were imagining, like you were trying to warn people of an apocalypse and you told it through stories for generation after generation, and then eventually people write down their versions of this story, and then it goes to 2026 where this stuff is actually happening.
Maybe this is what they were warning us about.
francis foster
Yeah.
Do you remember in the 80s and the 90s and the early 90s, there was this run of great movies talking about how the robots are going to take over?
konstantin kisin
Sci-fi books as well.
I mean, Isaac Asimov's stuff was amazing.
francis foster
Philip K. Dick, you know, Do Rhynjoy's Dream of Electric Sheep, which then became Blade Runner.
All of these.
And then no one's making those movies now, are they?
joe rogan
No.
I guess iRobot was probably the last one.
unidentified
Yeah, right?
francis foster
Yeah.
Which was iRobot.
Which was the one with Tom Cruise Minority Report, which was based on a Philip K. Dick.
But nobody's making them anymore because everyone's like, dude, I know this is going to happen.
unidentified
Right.
francis foster
I don't need to see this.
joe rogan
Well, they're also talking about using AI to predict people's behavior.
So they're talking about future crime.
unidentified
The minority report.
Police Arrests and Racism 00:05:42
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Yeah.
So they've literally talked about one of the ways that AI could be implemented.
You look at someone's history, you look at someone's behavior patterns, look at what they're doing now, and you predict, oh, this person has been radicalized.
They're about to do X.
francis foster
Yeah, and there was.
konstantin kisin
They're about to tweet something.
Arrest them.
francis foster
Yeah.
Graham Lillihan picks up his phone.
Zim Robot kicks down the door and arrests him.
joe rogan
Poor Graham.
konstantin kisin
He's doing right now.
francis foster
Yeah, but he's in America.
That's why he's doing it.
joe rogan
I think that backfired.
Yeah, I think people were outraged by that because it's so outrageous.
You meet that guy at the airport and arrest him.
It was right after he did this podcast, by the way.
unidentified
Yeah.
francis foster
Yeah.
I remember that's a moment, even when I was talking to comedians who were actually woke, they were like, yeah, this is, you can't do this.
konstantin kisin
The thing is, he didn't even do it in England.
So you're arresting someone who's not a citizen of the United Kingdom for a crime.
I mean, if we accept that framing, that they didn't even commit in the country.
Right.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's pretty kooky that they went with it.
unidentified
Yeah.
jamie vernon
Yeah.
francis foster
And I know the reason is because every police officer in airports in the UK have guns.
But it's a really bad look.
Like, there's five armed police officers arresting a comedy writer.
joe rogan
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
I bet you they felt bad doing it as well because it's not them that's making up these dumb.
joe rogan
Oh, I'm sure.
konstantin kisin
Nobody signs up to like arrest comedy writers in airports.
I don't think that's why the police do it.
But the rules have just got so difficult.
joe rogan
Well, you see it in the humiliation that a lot of these police officers face when they have to arrest someone for a Facebook post.
konstantin kisin
Right.
joe rogan
Which you can see they're not happy.
And when people are protesting and yelling, are you fucking serious?
And they're like, I'm just doing my job.
francis foster
And that's a large part of the problem.
We get former police officers on the show, and we've got a lot of cops and former cops who watch the show.
And they talk to us about the state that the British police force is in, and it's demoralization.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
The rank and file don't want on any of this shit.
joe rogan
Well, same in America.
A lot of, especially major blue cities, where just a few years ago, they were running with that defund the police bullshit.
And then things obviously went sideways, and most of them sort of course corrected for the most part, except in narrative.
You know, it's not like public, massive support for the police officers because they keep society together.
Like in Austin, the cops responded in a minute.
One minute.
That guy started gunning people down at that bar.
The cops were there and killed him in a minute.
konstantin kisin
It's incredible.
joe rogan
Incredible.
And they should be applauded for that.
I mean, that's amazing.
I mean, that, but, you know, even that, like, in this city, there hasn't been this big public support of those officers, this big celebration of those officers, this big acknowledgement of the importance of them and how they were willing to put their life on the line and react so quickly and so effectively.
francis foster
They're heroes.
That's what they are.
joe rogan
They're heroes.
And they're heroes that have been demoralized by the last six years of horseshit ever since the George Floyd protests.
konstantin kisin
And well, it was happening before.
I mean, if you go back to Michael Brown, Michael Brown, what we were told in the media happened is not what happened.
joe rogan
Which one was Michael Brown?
konstantin kisin
Michael Brown.
Hands up, don't shoot.
unidentified
Right.
konstantin kisin
He didn't have his hands up.
joe rogan
Right.
konstantin kisin
And he didn't say don't shoot.
unidentified
Right.
konstantin kisin
He assaulted the police officer.
unidentified
Right.
Right.
konstantin kisin
But the media concoct this story.
And I don't think this is what we came back to, like what's happening in new media, where people are putting out things that are really damaging to the fabric of our conversations.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
Right.
konstantin kisin
And how we talk about things.
Like you say, I mean, there are bad Apple police officers, of course there are.
But the majority of them, they are people who are signing up to risk their life on a daily basis to protect other people in their community.
And these people all have fucking PTSD because all they see is the worst of humanity day in, day out.
Every single fucking day, they get in the car and they go and eat shit for the rest of the day.
And then they go home and they worry about not coming home.
And then someone tries to run them over with a car.
Like, yeah, they're going to fucking shoot.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
You know?
And it's, it's, and the thing is, that's how society falls apart when you no longer honor and celebrate the people who are putting themselves on the line.
joe rogan
Well, not just that.
It's a case of the lady running over, or she wasn't running him over.
I think she was trying to turn her car away from him.
But that guy had been dragged by a car just a few weeks earlier.
unidentified
Right.
konstantin kisin
That's what I'm saying.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
So, but in a situation.
joe rogan
And then on top of that, you have people that are being paid to protest.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
So it's organized.
And I'm not saying that lady was, but many people are.
And then you've got all these people that that becomes the focus of their life.
It becomes a cause that's worthy.
You live this mundane, boring life of desperation, and then all of a sudden something comes along that gives you hope and meaning.
And like, this is my identity.
My identity is I'm fighting fascism.
And I'm out there in the street.
unidentified
Right.
francis foster
You know, I was on the plane to the U.S., I think it was last year.
And you know, the movie Bridesmaids came up.
unidentified
Yes.
francis foster
So a really funny movie.
It's 2013.
I was like, oh, I want something like, let's watch this comedy.
The romantic interest in bridesmaid, the main guy.
You know who Gili's job is?
He was a cop.
Can you imagine a movie being made now, like romantic comedy, where the main guy is a cop and he's a good guy?
joe rogan
Right.
francis foster
You just wouldn't see it.
unidentified
Right.
francis foster
You just wouldn't see it because cops are oppressed.
konstantin kisin
Yeah, man.
Do you know Yuri Besminov talked about this?
unidentified
Yes.
Free Speech Under Attack 00:06:32
konstantin kisin
He talked about this.
He talked about the fact that when you see in the culture, you know, the military, the cops, the firefighters, all of these people, they're bad.
And the criminal is the one that's to be understood and to be, you know, that's how you flip society.
And that's what we've got.
joe rogan
Yeah.
unidentified
That's what we've got.
joe rogan
The Besminov speech from 1984, which is, by the way, such an appropriate date for him to make that interview.
But it's so eerie how all of that has actually come to pass.
Because back then, nobody took him seriously at all.
unidentified
Right.
Right.
joe rogan
And it didn't, it wasn't until like the 2020s that people started reviewing that.
And then once it got on YouTube, then people were like, oh, this fucking guy nailed it.
konstantin kisin
I think it's YouTube and also most people want most people in my experience want to pretend that everything is fine most of the time.
So if you come out in 2018, as we did, and say, this woke shit is getting out of hand and it's going in a bad direction and it's going to cause a lot of problems, people make you the problem.
They say you're wrong to talk about this.
If you talk about grooming gangs, you're bad and evil and whatever.
If you talk about free speech and people being arrested for tweets and all of this, people make you the bad guy.
And it's only later, like I remember, I can't even remember who said it, but like I had this, oh no, I remember who said it.
One time I was on TV debating with this woman about this stuff.
And I was saying cancel culture is bad and she was saying it's all bullshit, blah, blah, blah.
I met her a few years later and she was like, yeah, I realized cancel counsel is bad.
And I went, how did you realize?
And she went, when my friends started getting canceled.
unidentified
Right.
konstantin kisin
Most people want to pretend most of the time everything is fine.
But when they start to see the reality of things and it starts to affect them, that's when they go, ah, maybe this Besminov guy had a point.
joe rogan
I had an argument with a seemingly intelligent person who's a friend of mine when the NSA, when this whole mass spying thing was, the Edward Snowden stuff was released.
And he was like, you can look at my shit.
I'm not doing anything wrong.
Like, what do you care?
I'm like, oh, that's such a crazy take.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Who are these perfect people that are watching over everything?
You don't think any of them have either some financial or power-based incentive to do certain things or silence certain voices and find out what you're doing or maybe even manipulate you in some sort of a way, being able to have access to all of your emails, all of your phone calls.
Those are just people and all of them unelected bureaucrats.
You think that's okay for those people to have access to everything you've ever said?
That's crazy.
francis foster
And look, maybe the current government that we have in this place is, you know, would never dream of doing such a thing.
And maybe they're entirely honorable and everybody's a great person and they're this unique human being where they don't have any ulterior motives.
But what's to say the next government comes in won't do that and start looking in and going, hey, you know what?
You're causing me problems, Joe Rogan.
joe rogan
Exactly.
francis foster
You're saying a lot of things that I don't actually like.
Let's look through your emails.
Oh, look, I'll find one from 14 years ago, which is, you know, whatever it may be, let's get rid of you for that.
joe rogan
This was the argument when Obama was pushing the NDAA, which the this is the indefinite detention.
So this concept that you didn't have to charge anybody, you didn't have to, you just have to have it, you don't have to try them within a timely period.
Indefinite detention.
Well, we'll never use that.
konstantin kisin
Okay, but why are you pushing it then?
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
Well, also, who comes after you, man?
Like, how many generations are we away from Hitler?
konstantin kisin
Right.
joe rogan
You know, like, who fucking, who's to say that this new power won't be used by very unscrupulous people that are now, I mean, the founding fathers of this country really had a good understanding of how corruption and tyranny sets in.
And that's why they put all these checks and balances in place.
And the more they eroded that, whether it's the Patriot Act, the Patriot Act II, or the NDAA, when you start doing stuff like that, man, you're just undermining the very fabric that this country was created with.
It's like we were created under this idea that we know human nature.
We know that you cannot have power.
We know that the government has to be working for the people.
It can't be we are under the power of these individuals because those individuals will then act like tyrants, which is what people always do when they have power.
konstantin kisin
It's one of the things that makes America really a great place because we look at the UK now and with Francis is right, and I've said this, I think the next election is probably going to be Nigel Farage versus these far leftists.
If those far leftists get in power, I mean, they're going to start regulating podcasts, I guarantee you.
joe rogan
100%.
konstantin kisin
That's what they're going to do.
They're going to say, we have Ofcom for TV.
We need to have it for other broadcasting.
Surely you'd agree with that, right?
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
And then before you know it, like everything we do.
joe rogan
Before you know it, you guys are living in Austin.
konstantin kisin
Right.
Because at that point, we would actually leave.
joe rogan
Yeah, you would have to.
You'd have to.
francis foster
Because what they would say is, and they would use the word that they always use, which is, you know, they're spreading misinformation and hate.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
When the New York Times spreads information, misinformation, that's wonderful.
unidentified
Right.
konstantin kisin
But it's, it's, so, yeah, I think allowing people maximum freedom within the system you're talking about is a really, truly precious thing.
It's why America, in this respect, is an example to the rest of the world.
joe rogan
I think if anything that should be done, they should be able to figure out which of these accounts are bots and eliminate those.
I do not think that you should be allowed to not just run a bot farm or I don't think you should be allowed to hire people to tweet.
I think that's crazy.
And I most certainly don't think you should be able to use AI.
I mean, that seems crazy.
It seems crazy to allow that and pretend that's a person.
francis foster
But think about it like this, Joe.
Like, how basically did social media start, Facebook, Meta, all the rest of it?
It started by a nerd in his bedroom, in his college dorm, who set up a website to rate hot girls on campus.
And my point is, like, we are creating all of this technology.
We don't know what's going to be the second, third, fifth, fifth, sixth order consequences.
And we're having to figure it out as we go along.
And now we're creating artificial intelligence, intelligences that are way smarter than us.
And you're going, at what point is this going to run away?
Black Footballers Exposed 00:03:12
francis foster
Or has it already run away?
And we just don't want to admit it because most of us don't know enough and the ones in charge are delusional.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
But you're right, Joe.
I think we need a way to know, A, what is human content and what isn't human content.
And also, I sometimes look at stuff on social media and I go, there's no fucking way this take got 50,000 likes on X.
No fucking way.
joe rogan
Right, right.
konstantin kisin
You know what I mean?
Like, and that is, but that is shaping people's perception of reality.
And that is informing political debate.
And that is then informing how people vote.
And where did those 40,000 likes come from?
joe rogan
Right.
konstantin kisin
Did they come from within America?
Did they come from within Britain?
Because what if they didn't?
Right?
So who is then shaping the political direction of our countries?
We need to know that.
joe rogan
Yeah, we do need to know that.
konstantin kisin
We need to know that.
joe rogan
Because it is effective.
Even if someone has a completely preposterous and radical position, a couple steps down from that, that becomes more palatable, right?
Because now it's closer to the farther left the left goes, the weirder the center gets.
Because the center starts accepting things that were far left positions.
konstantin kisin
And same on the right.
joe rogan
Same on the right.
konstantin kisin
Same on the right.
joe rogan
Same exactly on the right.
And you can shift narratives by really, really radical ideologies, really radical thoughts and radical declarations, and you could change what's acceptable.
francis foster
So an example of that is during the Euros, the 2021 final, it was England versus Italy.
And it was a tight game and it went to penalty shootout.
And three black England footballers missed the penalty and we ended up losing the European Cup to the Italians.
And afterwards, these three black footballers got inundated with racism and horrible things.
That sparked a conversation in our country about we have a real problem with racism.
This is disgraceful that these black footballers are exposed to this level of racism.
It's unacceptable.
Of course it is.
All those things are true.
But basically about them being exposed to race and it's not acceptable.
And then it went into a discussion about England being a racist country, white supremacists, and this became widespread.
And the example of what these footballers were exposed to was used as a way to justify this opinion.
And you could see a lot of people accept that opinion until a couple of days later when they investigated where the majority of the tweets came from and messages.
And I think something like 85%, if not 90, came from outside the UK, if not even more than that.
So you're going, oh, so this entire conversation that we have had about white supremacy, about black people not being accepted in our country, about the fact they're second-class citizens.
And look, this example of them being exposed to this horrendous racism, when the fact is the majority of it came from outside the UK.
konstantin kisin
And then you have to ask the question, who benefits?
Who benefits from us hating each other, obsessing about our differences, worrying about how we're the most racist places in the world when this narrative is likely being driven by actually racist countries?
Havana Syndrome Weapons 00:07:30
unidentified
Right?
joe rogan
Right.
unidentified
Right?
Right.
konstantin kisin
Because that's what's happening.
joe rogan
Yes.
konstantin kisin
And we are allowing it to happen.
And I think we just haven't woken up to the fact that we are living in the age of informational warfare.
And we, because of our belief in freedom, have just got lost in this fact that we are under attack.
joe rogan
It's a very good point.
I have to pee.
We'll come back with that.
unidentified
Awesome.
Let's do that.
konstantin kisin
I'll go pee as well.
joe rogan
Speaking of religion, so show us this Sam Tripoli Facebook take.
He was on Danny Jones.
And this is what he said about Facebook.
unidentified
Damn it.
joe rogan
Volume.
jamie vernon
Yeah.
sam tripoli
It's a giant lie.
It's a propaganda piece.
That was a Pentagon program called Lifelog.
Life Log is a Pentagon program that wants to collect all your data for your whole life.
What day did the government stop the Life Log project?
joe rogan
Whoa, DARPA shut down the Life Log project February 4th, 2004.
sam tripoli
What day was Facebook registered as a business?
joe rogan
God, no way, bro.
sam tripoli
The exact same day.
They don't even hide it, dude.
It was created by DARPA.
unidentified
Yeah.
sam tripoli
They handed it to Mark Zuckerberg.
And then the Vossil tweet.
unidentified
What about the other?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
konstantin kisin
That's all.
sam tripoli
And that's why they became the first Bitcoin millionaires, because they play ball.
unidentified
Oh, my God.
sam tripoli
It's all theater, dude.
unidentified
So what is the purpose of LifeLog?
sam tripoli
If you collect all your data for your whole entire life.
joe rogan
Okay.
Take this with many grains of salt.
Sam is one of my best friends.
I've known him for decades.
He's a wonderful person, but he's a kook.
But he's right a lot.
francis foster
Yeah.
joe rogan
I don't know if he's right about this.
francis foster
Yeah.
joe rogan
Jamie thinks he's right?
jamie vernon
It's not that he's incorrect.
I would say that.
joe rogan
He's making some connections.
Yeah.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Well, he's definitely right about the dates.
And that is a little weird.
francis foster
Yes.
joe rogan
That it's ended on the same day where Facebook is beginning.
A little weird.
francis foster
Yeah.
jamie vernon
You know, what do you think the appeal is of like when I went down this rabbit hole here that said it was made by the information processing techniques office of the CIA, I think, or something.
But here's some other fun projects that are associated with this.
joe rogan
Biologically inspired cognitive architectures?
Wait, what?
unidentified
Yep.
jamie vernon
There's just a couple.
joe rogan
Biologically inspired cognitive architectures.
That sounds like artificial intelligence.
francis foster
Yeah.
joe rogan
Bootstrapping learning.
What was the other one, Jamie?
jamie vernon
This Forrester thing.
joe rogan
Forrester, a program to develop a helicopter-borne radar system that can detect soldiers and vehicles moving underneath foliage cover.
konstantin kisin
Whoa.
jamie vernon
Deep green.
joe rogan
U.S. Army Battlefield Decision-Making Support System.
Yeah, this is all AI.
jamie vernon
Heterogeneous urban RST-8.
joe rogan
So they were planning on this in the...
jamie vernon
This was 2004 is when that thing ended, the LifeLog thing.
So, I mean, it even goes back to says they were working on ARPANET back in the 60s.
joe rogan
Whoa.
jamie vernon
Just speaking of the internet.
konstantin kisin
By the way, Joe, have you had anyone on to talk about this weapon that the U.S. forces used in Venezuela?
unidentified
No.
joe rogan
No, I haven't.
Not yet.
konstantin kisin
But there was something like they used something, right?
unidentified
Yes.
konstantin kisin
Something that makes your brain water temperature rise and so you get nosebleeds and shit.
Is that what it is?
francis foster
Well, my cousin told me when I was talking after the attack.
konstantin kisin
Your cousin in Venezuela.
francis foster
By my cousin in Venezuela, yeah, yeah.
He was saying that it seemed like in a one-mile radius, everybody's windows got blown out.
konstantin kisin
Well, that's just blasts.
That's not like it, but what I heard was that they had some kind of weapon that some sonic weapon.
I don't know if it was sonic, maybe, but something that incapacitates people and makes them very uncomfortable, basically, but without killing them.
joe rogan
Was it 60 Minutes?
unidentified
Yeah.
Yeah.
joe rogan
So 60 Minutes said that these guys acquired some weapon from Russian black market.
And it's a very small, portable weapon that you can carry around with you and does something very similar.
What is their claim on this?
jamie vernon
Oh, well, there's two different things going on with the 60 Minutes thing.
They had a story a couple months ago where they were tracking a guy, and then they just had an update, I think, over the weekend that added to it.
joe rogan
But what is the claim?
jamie vernon
Oh, I think they found the guy that said he was doing it, I believe.
joe rogan
Right.
jamie vernon
He had a device in his car or something like that.
joe rogan
And you could just point it at people, but you could carry it around.
jamie vernon
Yeah, that is where it gets strange.
I mean, the 60 Minutes thing from yesterday going around, I didn't watch it, so I don't know what they're talking about.
konstantin kisin
Oh, the Havana syndrome.
unidentified
Yes.
jamie vernon
Yeah, but it has to do with that, and that's what I was trying to – Trump had this discombobulator weapon.
unidentified
Right.
Right.
konstantin kisin
That's what I'm talking about.
joe rogan
Discombobulator.
jamie vernon
But that's kind of a description of what the Havana syndrome would mean.
unidentified
Yes.
konstantin kisin
The discombobulator.
joe rogan
But it seems like whatever its effectiveness is, the Havana syndrome is very small in comparison to what these things are doing.
These things are completely incapacitating people.
francis foster
You know, I don't think people talk about this enough.
You know, when they came in to take Maduro?
You know what they also did?
I mean, you probably know this.
They fired a rocket into Chavez's mausoleum.
joe rogan
They did?
unidentified
Yeah.
francis foster
Just to be like, go fuck your mom.
I'm going to bump in your grave.
joe rogan
Wow.
francis foster
Isn't that the most Trump thing ever?
joe rogan
You know what those things cost?
francis foster
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
Or yeah, millions of dollars.
joe rogan
Millions.
So millions just to say, fuck you.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Just fired a rocket into his grave.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
This is the American way, baby.
We're going to fire some expensive shit.
joe rogan
That's crazy.
konstantin kisin
That is your grave.
francis foster
But under any other president, you would have gone, that's bullshit.
But under Trump, you're like, yeah, of course.
joe rogan
You think it was his idea?
unidentified
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
joe rogan
I've got a thought.
konstantin kisin
That sounds exactly like a Trump idea.
joe rogan
So this weapon that, what is the details?
jamie vernon
I don't know.
We can just watch this.
joe rogan
Yeah, let's see what he says here.
Well, we could just read.
Okay, I couldn't read it.
Okay, let's play it.
Let's play it.
Here it goes.
scott pelley
Tales of a classified microwave weapon that may explain mysterious brain injuries suffered by U.S. officials.
We've been investigating these injuries for nine years, and now our sources tell us this microwave weapon is portable, concealable, and uses relatively little power.
Hundreds of possible attacks have been reported, including, we've learned, at CIA headquarters in Virginia and at least two incidents on the grounds of the White House.
For years, the government doubted the stories of the injured, but now the victims, including former CIA officer Mark Polymeropoulos, hope that word of a newly discovered weapon will finally vindicate them.
marc polymeropoulos
There's a part of this, Scott, that has to do with moral injury, and that's the idea of betrayal.
You know, I worked for 26 years for the CIA.
I think I was involved in every covert action program in the Middle East.
I did some very interesting things for the U.S. government, always with the idea that they would have my back if I got jammed up.
I just needed to get medical care when I came back, and they wouldn't even do that.
So this moral injury, this sense of betrayal, is so acute with me.
That's something that I can never forgive them for.
Venezuela Oil Resource Loss 00:05:48
scott pelley
Mark Polymeropoulos rose to an executive level at the CIA, about the equivalent of a three-star general.
He was awarded a top decoration for service.
60 Minutes has learned to take...
jamie vernon
I just repeated it.
konstantin kisin
Not much about the weapon there, unfortunately.
Yeah.
francis foster
But it's interesting that the way that they did that, they did that operation.
Because when I was talking to my cousins and my friends about what happened, no one in Venezuela had a clue.
And they were, my friend said that he was woken up around two in the morning by a plane going overhead.
And there's a no-fly zone around over Caracas.
at that time, especially.
And he was like, what is this?
And he said you heard this almighty boom.
And everybody was just, nobody knew what was happening.
They don't have X in Venezuela for obvious reasons.
So everybody was in the dark.
And it was only via Instagram and Facebook that they started to understand what had just gone on.
But it was complete disbelief that the Americans had done that.
joe rogan
If they don't have X, do they have threads?
Which is like X Zero.
francis foster
Yeah.
X Zero.
Yeah, I imagine they must do.
But he said the way that everybody was communicating was via Instagram.
joe rogan
Interesting.
konstantin kisin
What are people saying now in Venezuela?
francis foster
So now I talked to my friends.
He said that things are getting better.
He said things are getting better.
He said that crime was down 75%.
I mean, I don't know how true this is.
He said things are slowly starting to get liberalized.
I was talking to a Colombian friend of mine who was saying that people, Venezuelans in Colombia, are now starting to go back.
Because whilst the regime is still obviously not perfect, what you essentially have is a puppet regime.
And they know that the moment they step out of line, they know the moment they, to use Trump's parlance, fuck about, something will happen.
They're kept on a straight line.
They have to behave.
Yeah, they have to behave.
They can't do what Maduro did.
And what's interesting about when Maduro was captured is nobody really mentioned that much about his wife.
But a lot of people say that his wife was the brains behind the operation.
Because Maduro, there's clips of him that went viral on TikTok and Instagram and on Twitter as well, where he was doing speeches and he had to do basic mental arithmetic and he couldn't do it.
This guy was a bus driver.
He was picked by Chavez when Chavez was on his deathbed in 2013, dying from stomach cancer.
And he appointed Maduro.
Everybody was shocked because they were saying, well, Maduro wasn't the most capable.
He wasn't the most intelligent.
But what Maduro was, is he was the most loyal out of all Chavez's underlings.
So he was picked not for his brilliance, not for his sharpness, but because he was a company man.
And actually, the person who the Venezuelans hated the most was his wife because she was the brains behind the operation.
She was the one in charge of the kidnappings, the tortures, the murders.
So when she was kidnapped, people were happier that she was on the helicopter than Maduro himself.
joe rogan
Brilliant.
francis foster
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
Lady Macbeth.
francis foster
She was way more cruel than Maduro.
unidentified
Wow.
francis foster
Way more cruel.
konstantin kisin
It's interesting you say things are getting better now because it's short term, right?
We don't know.
unidentified
Right.
francis foster
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
You know, this has happened a lot of times in Latin America, right?
Like, people get overthrown, things are getting better, and then some shit happens.
joe rogan
Yeah, not the most stable place.
francis foster
Not the most stable people, Joe.
I'm going to be honest with you.
My people, it's either, you know, it's either Fajimo or Vivo la Revolution.
And you're like, guys, can we have a little middle?
And they're like, no, Vivo la Revolution.
You know, they're excitable people.
konstantin kisin
And you also wonder how much the fact that Venezuela in particular is so resource-rich, a lot of, well, like a lot of, Francis always says to me, like, you know, it could be a really great country, really wealthy.
And I go, I don't know that having those resources makes a country better.
Because what you get is a corrupt elite who are fighting for control of these resources that are so easy to get.
Like in 1990s, Russia, when the Soviet Union collapsed, the people who took over all the resource companies, the oil companies, the gas companies, Russia is basically all it is in terms of its economy is digging shit out of the ground and selling it.
That's what it is.
francis foster
No poetry.
konstantin kisin
Yeah, not a lot of money to be made in poetry.
Right.
But the people who took over those companies, they weren't people who knew anything about the oil business.
They weren't people who knew anything about the gas business.
Because all you really had to do is take over and then you just let Western companies come in and do the drilling and the oil field services and all of it for you.
So these countries, which are so resource-rich, it actually makes them more corrupt and more unstable.
The resource wealth they have doesn't actually make them better for the people because the corrupt elites fight over those resources.
And that's where you get the bullshit that you get.
francis foster
And it's true.
So Venezuela, before Chavez came to power, was 98% dependent on oil.
The economy.
The entire economy was 98% dependent on oil.
The slight difference with Venezuela is when we were taking over by Chavez, he then installed his cronies in charge of Pedevesa, which is the Venezuelan oil company.
And he cut out all the people who were competent, all the people who would criticize him ideologically.
And as a result, what you had is fundamentally incompetent people at the top, which meant that it became degraded.
It was no longer able to pump the oil.
Incompetent Leadership Collapse 00:03:16
francis foster
It wasn't reliable.
So that's a large part of the reason why the economy collapsed is it was entirely dependent on oil.
They appointed their cronies who couldn't actually do the job.
The oil industry failed and we descended into poverty and chaos.
joe rogan
How much do you know about Brazil?
konstantin kisin
Not a lot.
Why?
joe rogan
Well, that situation is very confusing, right?
Lula goes to jail.
Now he's out.
He's running the country.
And they jailed Jair Bolsonaro, right?
And then they tried to ban X, and they did for a while, right?
konstantin kisin
I think so.
joe rogan
And they had to make probably some concessions.
konstantin kisin
I don't know a lot about it, truthfully, Joe.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
We're going to do that thing that no one does on the internet is admit we don't know something about it.
joe rogan
Well, as long as we don't have hot takes.
unidentified
What is this, Jimmy?
jamie vernon
These are kind of crazy descriptions of this weapon.
This is from a longer version of the CBS News 60 Minutes article where they're talking to that guy we just saw.
I would say start right around here, and then I'll skip to another paragraph.
joe rogan
Because three independent sources from different agencies tell us undercover Homeland Security agents purchased a miniaturized microwave weapon from a complex Russian criminal network.
It's classified.
We didn't see it, but it has been described to us.
We're told it doesn't look anything like a gun.
It's designed to be concealed and small enough to be carried by a person.
It is silent and doesn't create heat like a microwave oven.
Our sources say the device is programmable for different scenarios and can be operated by remote control.
The range of the beam is several hundred feet.
It can penetrate windows and drywall.
The vital components were made in Russia.
Our sources say the key is not the hardware, but the software.
The programming shapes a unique electromagnetic wave that rises and falls abruptly and pulses rapidly.
jamie vernon
So then it turns out they have tested this apparently in U.S. military labs.
joe rogan
Our confidential sources tell us still classified weapon has been tested in a U.S. military lab for more than a year.
Tests on rats and sheep show injuries consistent with those seen in humans.
Also, as a separate part of the investigation, security camera videos have been collected that show Americans being hit.
The videos are classified, but they were described to us.
In one, a camera in a restaurant in Istanbul captured two FBI agents on vacation sitting at a table with their families.
A man with a backpack walks in, and suddenly everyone at the table grabs their head as if in pain.
Our sources say that another video comes from a stairwell in the U.S. Embassy in Vienna.
The stairs lead to a secure facility.
In the video, two people on the stairs suddenly collapse.
Those videos and the weapon were among the reasons.
The Biden administration summoned about half a dozen victims to the White House with about two months left in the president's term.
jamie vernon
And then that guy was also one of the people in there.
The ads are kind of fucking up this website, but yeah, he just sort of says someone admitted to him that they treated him poorly.
unidentified
Yeah.
jamie vernon
That's the biggest cover-up I've seen in my adult life, a CIS.
joe rogan
Interesting.
konstantin kisin
I don't get the, like, the border for what if Russia has this weapon, why didn't they use it to take out Zelensky?
joe rogan
Well, it seems like it's only for a couple hundred feet.
Guyana Oil Discovery 00:02:30
joe rogan
That's what they're just saying.
Like, it has to be close.
konstantin kisin
Right.
joe rogan
So what was the one they used in Venezuela then?
jamie vernon
Yeah, they started off saying it was in a truck.
It was truck size, but then that's where it goes.
I started you just past that where they said it's actually way smaller.
joe rogan
Interesting.
So this is the one that's that you could carry around.
But do we know that that's the same one they used in Venezuela or do they use something that's completely different technology?
francis foster
Yeah, the reality is we just don't know.
I mean, the interesting thing as well with Venezuela is like Maduro is so retarded.
He's such a retarded.
konstantin kisin
There's a hot take.
joe rogan
How retarded is he?
unidentified
He literally so retarded.
joe rogan
This is a joke.
Set up, punchline.
francis foster
Yeah, but he literally said to Trump, he said to America, I'm not going to do what you say.
Go fuck yourself.
Come and get me.
joe rogan
Yeah, he did that.
That was cocaine.
francis foster
And it's not just that.
So, for instance, the country next to Venezuela is called Guyana.
And in Guyana, they recently discovered oil.
Really huge, large deposits of oil.
And there's been, Guyana is a former British colony.
And Venezuela and Guyana have always been disputes about territory, about one particular part of, I think it's called Esquibo, which is basically rainforest.
They always argued about it, but no one cared.
Until they discovered oil there.
At which point Maduro went, you know what?
You know how we've been talking about this?
Turns out it is Venezuelan.
They did a referendum in Venezuela where you basically asked a people who were entirely subjugated, starving, living in misery and poverty, whether they wanted to start a war with Guyana.
Do you know how many Venezuelans voted for it?
92%, Joe.
92% of Venezuelans wanted to go to war, despite the fact they didn't have the strength to even pick up a gun because they're so malnourished.
And then he started teaching in schools, redrawing the map of Venezuela, so all the school kids now think that Venezuela incorporates this territory.
He was antagonizing the Americans and their allies consistently.
And unlike Iran, he doesn't have the infrastructure.
He doesn't have that amount of the military, the power, the organization.
He made himself so vulnerable.
So vulnerable.
konstantin kisin
Who looks at Trump and goes, yeah, let's fuck with that guy?
Hell's Angels Deterrents 00:12:59
joe rogan
Right.
He's 80.
He doesn't have much to lose.
konstantin kisin
Right.
Last term.
joe rogan
That's the scary thing about old leaders.
It's like, death is imminent.
It's within a decade, if you're lucky.
That's spooky.
That's spooky.
Like, you know, you're making decisions for babies and children and the future of the world.
And you've only got 10, maybe 10 years left on Earth.
If everything goes great.
francis foster
And also, you start to degrade.
joe rogan
Oh, yeah.
francis foster
Your cognitive functions.
It doesn't.
I'm not saying that he's got dementia or anything like that, but you're just not as sharp when you're that age as you are when you're younger.
konstantin kisin
He is, I mean, he's kind of weird.
Like, when I think about how much Barack Obama aged, how much Tony Blair aged.
Trump has not aged like that.
joe rogan
Yeah, and he is a terrible diet.
I mean, especially when he's on the road, he just eats junk food because he says it's like JFK or RFK Jr. rather told me he eats junk food because he knows that when he eats fast food, that it's not going to be poison.
Like he knows he can eat it and not worry about getting food poisoning.
francis foster
What?
joe rogan
Exactly.
konstantin kisin
Doesn't make any fucking sense.
joe rogan
Well, it does because it's filled with preservatives.
So you're not going to get food poisoning from a Big Mac.
When's the last time you heard about anybody getting food poisoning from a Big Mac?
Right?
Fucking never happens because nothing can grow on those things.
Really?
Like, for real.
Like, you've seen them, they take like decades.
Decades.
Decades.
They don't rot.
There's so much preservatives in the bread and whatever the meat is fucking made with.
konstantin kisin
But this is my point: Trump hasn't aged like much younger men.
joe rogan
Which is even crazier because you consider he doesn't exercise.
unidentified
Right.
konstantin kisin
And he's been under colossal.
I mean, I don't know, but I imagine he's been under a bit of pressure and stress.
joe rogan
Well, assassination attempts.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
And just all that.
Almost going to jail.
konstantin kisin
Yeah.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
Like, 34 fell and he's sort of trumped up, you know, pardon the pun against him.
konstantin kisin
Yeah.
joe rogan
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
He's a Russian agent and all this bullshit.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
And he's just like, it's kind of like, it's kind of impressive in a way.
joe rogan
Oh, that part's very impressive.
Yeah.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
And he's funny.
Like, he's always joking around about that stuff.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
He's very light-hearted about it all.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
He is.
Like when he was talking about the Iranian Navy, did you see that?
He was like, they've lost 14 ships.
We sunk a submarine.
They did this.
But apart from that, they're doing really well.
He's very relaxed for a man in that.
Like, it's hard to imagine.
I cannot imagine being in charge of anything like 8,000th of that size.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
Just imagine the stress that you guys have running trigonometry.
unidentified
Right.
Yeah.
Right.
joe rogan
It's stressful, I'm sure.
konstantin kisin
Francis is aged like Barack Obama.
francis foster
Yeah, I used to have black hair.
Now I just look like an aging lesbian, John.
joe rogan
It is stressful, right?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
And that is the highest stress that I can ever imagine.
I can't imagine a level higher.
francis foster
Do you know?
I always remember after the war in Iraq, when Blair was still in power, but it was towards the end.
I was watching the news with my dad, and this woman in her 50s came along and she put a wreath at the door of 10 Downing Street.
And that was a mother whose son had died in Iraq and placed a wreath at 10 Downing Street of all the soldiers that died.
I'm like, even if the war was justified, even if it was the right thing to do, which I don't think it was, I would still find it impossible to sleep.
unidentified
Right.
francis foster
Now, just imagine it was the colossal fuck-up that that war was.
unidentified
Right.
francis foster
And those people died as a result of your decision.
But how do you, unless you're a sociopath, I think that's an you can't.
Can you live with that?
joe rogan
Right.
francis foster
I don't think you, I think it's impossible to live with.
konstantin kisin
But clearly not.
I mean, we've got people who were heavily responsible for promoting that war in the UK now.
Like Alistair Campbell, who was the spin doctor that helped Blair lie the country into the war in Iraq.
He now has a really big podcast, and like all the young people are, oh, really?
Oh, tell me more.
joe rogan
No way.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Who's the Rush Limbo of the UK?
konstantin kisin
How do you mean?
Sorry, I don't know enough about Russia.
joe rogan
You don't know Rush Limbo?
konstantin kisin
I've heard the name, but I don't get the reference in the way that you mean it.
joe rogan
He was the big right-wing propagandist on radio.
Excellence in broadcasting.
Oh, by the way, have you seen the memes that think that Rush Limbaugh is actually Jim Morrison?
unidentified
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
And if you look at his facial features in comparison to Jim Morrison's facial features, they're almost identical.
It's kind of nuts.
They do like a scan where they superimpose.
konstantin kisin
So Rush Limbo is a media guy.
Alistair Campbell, he was working for Tiny Blair.
unidentified
Right.
konstantin kisin
But now he shapes the media.
Now he has a podcast.
And all the young people, oh, really?
joe rogan
Well, there was a lot of young men in particular that were really into Rush Limbaugh.
And a lot of people were crediting him with turning young people towards a right-wing direction.
This was during the Obama administration.
Like, look at this.
Watch when they grow over.
Pretty close.
francis foster
Psych Alex Jones and Bill Hicks.
Have you seen that?
joe rogan
That one's ridiculous.
I met both of them.
They didn't look anything like each other.
Look at this.
Look at that.
That is kind of crazy.
francis foster
Wow.
joe rogan
It's pretty close.
francis foster
Wow.
joe rogan
But you know, there's the other crazy conspiracy theory involving the countercultural movement, counterculture movement of the 1960s with the CIA.
There's a book on it, Strange Times in Laurel Canyon.
The book's nuts.
Like, you realize how many of these very popular counterculture figures had families that were in the military.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Like high-level military intelligence officers, including Morrison.
unidentified
Oh, yeah.
francis foster
Morrison's dad was very senior in the military.
joe rogan
And a bunch of other people that were also involved in the whole Laurel Canyon rock scene, and that it was somehow or another at least promoted by intelligence agencies, if not formulated.
konstantin kisin
And by counterculture, you mean like what, like hippies?
joe rogan
Yep.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
So the hippie movement was promoted by intelligence.
unidentified
Yeah.
Why?
joe rogan
That's a good question.
Well, we know without saying definitively, but pretty close, based on Tom O'Neill's book, Chaos, that they were absolutely involved in the Manson family.
So the reason for them being involved, the Manson family, is, say, you have this new culture that's arising that doesn't embrace materialism, make love, not war.
You got all these people, you know, drop out, tune in, like Timothy Leary.
Yeah, the Timothy, the Timothy Leary people, the people that want to do acid and just want to reimagine society.
So this is a radical change.
This is a radical change from the 1950s to the 1960s.
Pretty crazy.
So what do you do to stop that?
Well, what you do is you find a guy who's very charismatic, who is a sociopath, who's in prison, and you find that guy and teach him how to be a cult leader.
And then you give him acid and you show him how to administer acid and how to not take it and have all of his followers take it and then direct their thoughts and then eventually program them like MK Ultra style to commit murders.
So they have the Tate LaBianca murders.
They have a bunch of other stuff that they did before that.
He's gotten arrested multiple times.
Every time he gets arrested, they let him go.
And when they let him go, like one of the sheriffs says, I was told it was above my pay grade.
So you're letting a guy go who's a violent criminal, who's violating parole, who's a lifelong con man.
And now he is running this cult, and this cult is murderous.
So the Tate LaBianca murders, the Manson family murders, all that stuff becomes public.
There's the hearings, the trials, the whole thing.
So the entire public narrative changes on what a hippie is.
Now hippies are dangerous.
So before hippies were like, we're non-violent, we want love, we have flowers, and now it's like, oh, these fucking people will cut your baby out and write pig on the wall with your blood.
You know?
francis foster
Is the Altamont concert connected to that?
unidentified
Excuse me?
francis foster
The Altamont concert.
You know, the Rolling Stones concert.
joe rogan
Oh, that was the Hell's Angels.
francis foster
Yes, right?
unidentified
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
francis foster
And that was kind of seen.
I don't know.
It's just a question I'm asking.
Because that was seen as the end of the hippie movement, wasn't it?
That was the death.
That was the final death rattle, the hippie movement.
unidentified
Was it?
francis foster
That was how it was, that's how it was written and portrayed.
joe rogan
Well, that's odd because Hell's Angels are not hippies.
And having Hell's Angels as security is a wild move.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
That's crazy.
francis foster
Yeah, because it was a Rolling Stones concert, but because it was a free concert, wasn't it?
That was a thing.
joe rogan
How did they go about hiring?
See if you can find the history on that.
Did they go about hiring the Hell's Angels?
francis foster
Yeah.
joe rogan
Both previously used the Angels for security at performances without incident.
jamie vernon
Grateful Dead and Jefferson.
joe rogan
Grateful Dead and Jefferson Airplane.
jamie vernon
This is also the next sentence says it was denied, so I don't know if that's true, but that's what it says in the Wikipedia here.
joe rogan
It says for $500 worth of beer.
That's all they had to pay them.
The story was denied by some parties who were directly involved.
According to the road manager of the Rolling Stones 1969 U.S. tour, Sam Cutler, the only agreement there ever was, the Angels would make sure that nobody tampered with the generators, and that was the extent of it.
But there was no way they're going to be the police force or anything like that.
That's all bullocks.
The deal was made at a meeting, including Cutler, Grateful Dead manager, Rock Scully, and Pete Nell, member of the Hell's Angels San Francisco chapter.
According to Cutler, the arrangement was that all the bands were supposed to share the $500 beer cost, but the person who paid it was me, and I never got it back to this day.
Okay.
He said, the Hell's Angels guy says, we don't police things.
We're not a security force.
We go to concerts and enjoy ourselves and have fun.
Well, what about helping people out, you know, giving directions and things?
He says, sure, we can do that.
How they would be paid.
He said, we like beer.
In the documentary, Gimme Shelter, Sonny Barger, the guy that was the head of the Hell's Angels, stated that the Hell's Angels were not interested in policing the event and that organizers had told them the Angels would not be required to do, or would be required rather, to do little more than sit on the edge of the stage, drink beer, and make sure there weren't any murders or rapes occurring.
Hmm.
francis foster
The only reason I said that is because that was kind of one of the events that was heralded to be the end of the hippie movement.
unidentified
Right.
jamie vernon
So what happened?
joe rogan
They stabbed people.
Something happened?
francis foster
Yeah, I think it was a free concert that the Rolling Stones and these bands put on, and then it degenerated, and then a riot broke out.
And then the Hell's Angels, who was obviously not trained security, then went on the rampage.
joe rogan
And how many people died?
francis foster
That I don't know.
joe rogan
Does it say here, Jamie?
jamie vernon
Situation Tears, killing a woman got killed?
unidentified
Yeah, that's what it says.
jamie vernon
22 caliber from the jacket, draw revolver, drew a knife, stabbed him 16 times in the head, neck, and back.
unidentified
Whoa.
jamie vernon
That's a lot of stabbing.
joe rogan
So it says concealing the remaining 14 stabbings.
unidentified
What?
jamie vernon
He was high on meth when he died.
joe rogan
Oh, boy.
jamie vernon
Acquitted after jury reviewed the concert footage.
joe rogan
Rolling Stones were aware of the skirmish, but not the stabbing.
Couldn't see anything.
It's just another scuffle Jagger tells David Males during film editing.
It soon became apparent they could see something of what happened because the band stopped playing mid-song and Jagger was heard calling into his microphone.
Really got someone hurt here.
Is there a doctor?
After a few minutes, the band began playing again and eventually completed their set.
They had to get paid.
The band of the show at one point was to say, Altamont became, whether fairly or not, a symbol for the death of the Woodstock Nation.
Interesting.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Yeah, I mean, it seems like if you're going to have concerts, especially going to have free concerts, and you're going to be using Hell's Angels as a deterrent, you know, things could definitely go sideways.
Eddie Hearn MMA Fights 00:14:41
francis foster
Yeah, definitely.
joe rogan
And maybe they just got lucky before when they did it for Jefferson Airplane and the Grateful Dead.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
Joe, not to change the subject, but have you been following this beef between Eddie Hearn and Dana White?
joe rogan
A little bit.
konstantin kisin
Because it's kind of interesting to me because boxing seems to be changing, right?
Because of what Zuffer Boxing is doing.
Is that something you're excited about?
The possibility of the boxing, which has been in, you know, there's so much bullshit going on, and you so very rarely see the best fighters fighting each other, that that might change?
joe rogan
Well, the beef with those two, I don't know the root of it.
I think it's essentially that, you know, it's competition.
Like Dana is now entering into the MMA space.
konstantin kisin
Into the boxing space.
joe rogan
Excuse me, the boxing space.
And I was going to say Eddie Hearn is now entering into the MMA space because now he's a manager of Tom Aspinall.
Yeah.
Which is very interesting.
Anything that gets fighters more money, I'm for.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
And, you know, more attention, more money, more different promoters, more people competing to give people higher purses.
The real problem is with MMA, there's nothing.
I mean, there's essentially the UFC and everything else is a distant second.
And it's a distant second in terms of attention.
In some places, it's not a distant second in terms of revenue, right?
So like the PFL, for instance, the PFL was offering a million dollars for anybody who could win these tournaments.
And the caliber of fighters that were winning this tournament were not the same caliber as UFC champions.
And then some of the people that were competing in the UFC were not making as much money as these people that had left the UFC because they really weren't able to beat the best guys.
They went over there and they made a million dollars.
I think that's good for fighters.
It's not good for really talented guys that really want to be the UFC champion because you can languish over there for a long time.
And there's some good examples of guys who have spent four, five, six years over there that really had potential to be a world champion.
And they are, you know, in quotes, a world champion over there.
But ask the average person on the street who they are, no one knows.
Ask them who Alex Pereira is.
Everybody knows.
The thing is, those guys, if they're doing that and they're getting paid more, you have to make a decision.
Like, are you willing to take more money now in this organization versus the potential of much more fame, sponsors, and maybe less money initially in the UFC?
But if you can be a champion, that's really what every fighter wants to be.
Because if you spend five, six years in an organization, the reality is your prime is about five, six years.
You look at the elite of the elite guys, Anderson Silva in his prime, it's about five, six years.
Fedora Amelian Echo in his prime, it's about five, six years.
So you could burn out your prime in an organization where you're not getting as much talent and not getting as much recognition.
So it depends on what you're doing it for.
If you're purely a prize fighter and you want to fight for the highest bidder, the difference between MMA and the UFC is you can do that in boxing.
So in boxing, people go to see the fighter.
You know, if Terrence Crawford is fighting Canelo Alvarez, my mom could be the promoter.
Nobody gives a shit.
They want to see that fight.
And you put that fight on pay-per-view, it's going to sell.
You put it on Dazone, you put it on Netflix, it's going to sell.
In MMA, that's not necessarily the case.
The interesting challenge to that is this Netflix thing.
So with Ronda Rousey versus Gina Carano, even though Gina Carano hasn't fought since the 2000s, I don't remember what year it was the last time she fought.
I want to make a guess.
Let me guess.
I want to say 2007, 2008.
When was the last time Gina Carano fought?
And she's 43, and I think Ronda's 39.
But Ronda's so famous, and people are so interested.
And if it's on Netflix and people already have Netflix, I guarantee you, you'll get millions of people that'll watch that.
So that'll be good, right?
And that's good for the fighters.
And I know they offered some fighters that I know a very large purse to compete on that card.
konstantin kisin
Well, Francis Ngana might be one, right?
joe rogan
He might be.
Yeah, there's talk of that.
No, actually, I think that's been, I think that's been confirmed.
I think he's fighting Philip Linz.
2009.
francis foster
Okay.
joe rogan
So that was the last time she fought.
konstantin kisin
Chris Cyberg was a beast.
joe rogan
Yeah.
There was a lot of supplements involved in that.
There was a lot going on with her.
I mean, that was the Wild West of testing, and she looked freak.
konstantin kisin
Yeah, the eye test was kind of.
joe rogan
Yeah, the eye test was 100%.
But it'll still be exciting.
People will, you know, hopefully they've had enough time.
I know there's a lot of video footage of Rhonda training for quite a while.
She lost a lot of weight.
She got really slim.
She looks fit.
You know, she looks outstanding, especially with her grappling.
She's doing a lot of judo throws and arm bars, and she's lost a step.
There's a difference between that and competition.
There's ring rust.
There's a lot of factors.
Gina Carano was a legit Muay Thai champion.
She's got real power, and she was a very good striker when she was young.
She was a very technical, solid striker when she was young.
How long has it been since she, you know, well, I mean, how long did she stop training for, right?
She did movies.
She's done The Mandalorian.
She's had a lot of success acting, but it seems like there's probably quite a bit of time.
She lost a ton of weight, too.
Look.
And she looks quite a bit bigger than Ronda.
konstantin kisin
Those are two attractive ladies, I'm sure.
I'm going to say so.
joe rogan
Yep.
konstantin kisin
Oh, Jake Paul is in the middle.
joe rogan
Yeah, Rhonda looks very angry.
francis foster
He looks kind of awkward though, Jake, to be honest.
joe rogan
You know, when it comes to grappling, you give Rhonda a big advantage.
She's one of the best submission artists ever, period.
You know, her arm bar is about as good as a cat's.
She's got fantastic judo, bronze medalists in the Olympics.
But when it comes to Gina, Gina was like a solid striker when she was young.
And the difference in striking would definitely benefit Gina.
You would have to lean in her direction.
But again, when you're talking about like 2009, it's a long time, man.
17 years?
It's a long time to not compete.
konstantin kisin
Well, there do seem to be a lot of fights nowadays in various disciplines happening where it's like you're not seeing people at their prime.
You're maybe sometimes seeing people who aren't professionals but are famous.
And there seems to be a lot of money to be made doing that.
joe rogan
Yeah, as long as you match them correctly, right?
konstantin kisin
Yeah.
francis foster
That was the thing that was wild with Jake Paul versus Anthony Joshua.
Jake Paul is a cruiserweight and you've got Joshua who is heavy for the heavyweight division.
You looked at the size matchup between the two.
And at one point I was like, he's going to kill him.
joe rogan
Well, he did.
I mean, I think Jake probably knew it going in.
And I think his game plan was just to move a lot.
And he did a lot of that, did a lot of moving.
He hit him a few times, and he hit him with some wild shots from the outside where he kind of dove in and threw wild punches.
I think that was probably part of the strategy.
But I mean, ultimately, you're looking at Anthony Joshua, who's not just a heavyweight champion in boxing, but a one-punch knockout artist and a former Olympic gold medalist.
He's a fucking highly skilled man.
Very highly, highly skilled.
konstantin kisin
That was a strange fight because up to that point, Jake's Paul's fight was the other way around.
Like he had a he clearly had an advantage.
And that was like flipping the script the other way.
joe rogan
Well, smart dude, you know, very smart.
konstantin kisin
Do you think that was smart?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Very smart in how he promotes himself, smart in that, like, you can't criticize him for not fighting dangerous fights.
konstantin kisin
That's a guy you've got to respect, right?
unidentified
Yeah.
Yeah.
joe rogan
The Mike Tyson one was a little sus.
konstantin kisin
I mean, Mike Tyson is, you know, he's on the older side.
Whereas Anthony Joshua, he's not that old.
joe rogan
It's not just that.
Like, the fight itself was a little sus.
konstantin kisin
How do you mean?
joe rogan
Because it looked like a sparring match.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
Looked like there was an agreement in place.
unidentified
Okay.
joe rogan
I don't know if there was, you know, but Terrence Crawford thought it was.
francis foster
Really?
joe rogan
Yeah.
He looked a little sus.
francis foster
I mean, Mike is how old is Mike?
58, 59?
joe rogan
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
I mean, I still wouldn't get in a ring with him.
joe rogan
Yeah, no, it'll still kill you.
But it's like, I mean, it's not saying that Jake would have even won.
I mean, who knows?
I mean, if Mike really could have like you saw he's capable of those flurries when he's hitting pads, he's still capable of massive speed and power.
It's not saying that, but it's like, could he sustain a real fight?
Does he want to get hit in the head anymore at this point in his life?
francis foster
And it's also when you get to that age, you can look and you can, there'll be glimpses where you're like, oh, this is the old, the Tyson of old.
But it's also as well, he's still a 58-year-old dude.
You know, punch around the head, that can cause a brain hemorrhage, et cetera.
And he can die.
joe rogan
Sure.
francis foster
Fighters die at the peak of their powers or get brain damage.
I mean, it's going to be, I'm no neurologist, but I'm certain that that is a higher risk when you're 58.
joe rogan
Yeah, I would recommend it.
konstantin kisin
So the thing, this is why I asked you about Eddie Hearn and Dana.
There's talk about them having a boxing match.
joe rogan
Oh, that's funny.
Dana can box.
He can really box.
Like, I've seen Dana hit mitts before.
I've seen Dana Sparr.
Dana can actually box.
And there was a time where Dana was supposed to have a boxing match with Tito Ortiz.
unidentified
Right.
francis foster
Wow.
joe rogan
And, you know, even Tito acknowledged, because Dana was his manager at one point in time.
Even Tito acknowledged, like, Dana's a really good boxer.
He can box.
He spent a lot of his time boxing when he was young.
I mean, I don't know how much of it he's doing these days.
He's so fucking busy.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
You know, he's so involved in Zoofa boxing now.
And he's involved in some of these Riyadh season events.
So it's like, you know, I don't, I think it's probably just talk.
You know, Eddie Hearn's a very tall guy, though.
konstantin kisin
He's a big dude.
joe rogan
Yeah, he's a big dude.
konstantin kisin
And he used to box as well.
joe rogan
Did he?
konstantin kisin
He boxed his dad, I think.
I heard him talking about that.
joe rogan
Interesting.
konstantin kisin
Yeah.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
There's a fight.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Yes.
I don't want to see it.
I'll watch, though.
konstantin kisin
That's not what I mean.
You don't want to see it, but you'll watch.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Well, there's certain things I don't want to see that I watch, like slap fight.
Like if someone sends me a video, if it shows up on my Instagram feed of some poor slob getting slapped in the shadow realm, I'll watch it just for how they hit their head off the table and stiffen up on the way down.
unidentified
Yeah.
francis foster
That's combat sports for the TikTok generation.
joe rogan
Yeah, right.
When you think about it, it's not even combat sports.
I mean, it's just slapping each other.
That's all it is.
If you want to call slapping each other a sport, that seems crazy.
It's also, there's a fundamental problem with slap fighting: someone has to go first.
konstantin kisin
Yeah.
joe rogan
Yeah.
And that's a giant advantage.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
Going first is the biggest advantage of all time.
konstantin kisin
You know, and how's that decided?
The coin toss.
joe rogan
I don't know.
I don't watch it.
Is it?
francis foster
I have no idea.
unidentified
No.
konstantin kisin
I physically can't watch it, to be honest.
joe rogan
Yeah.
Well, to me, it's like this, at least Zoofah boxing is real.
This is a real combat sport.
Whereas it's not just slapping each other in the head.
konstantin kisin
Well, to me, the exciting thing, and correct me if this is wrong, but the exciting thing is it has felt for a long time that seeing top boxers fighting each other is a rare occurrence.
unidentified
Right.
konstantin kisin
UFC, you see that every single card.
joe rogan
Yeah.
Well, the Saudis are stepping up, and that's, you know, with Turkey al-Sheikh, like his role in boxing has really changed that.
Like, what they've done with Riyadh Seasons done is make fights that managers have said, don't do this.
Like, a good one is Martin Bocoli versus, God, I forgot his name.
Anderson.
Young prospect.
Very good fighter.
And Bocoli is a fucking big, dangerous guy.
And Bocoli knocked this guy out.
Jared Anderson.
That's it.
Jared Anderson was undefeated, up-and-coming prospect, young guy, and Bocoli beat him up.
And he really wasn't there yet.
He wasn't ready for that guy yet.
And Bocoli stopped him, and that derailed this guy's career.
But he probably got a big paycheck.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
And so what I understand is there was a lot of people saying that's a bad fight to make.
Don't do it.
konstantin kisin
Yeah, I mean, the UFC has been, seems to me from the outside, quite careful about giving people, like Bo Nicol and Raul Rosas Jr. and Sean Nomalley, just trying to get them to build up slow.
And even Dave, you know, Raul and Bo Nicol both lost at one point, right?
joe rogan
Well, yeah.
Well, Bo Nickel fought Reiner DeRitter, who's a one champion and a huge guy for the Middleweight Division.
And Reiner did a fantastic job of, you know, you don't want to take Reiner to the ground because he's an elite submission athlete.
And standing up, he's got vicious knees to the body.
That's like one of his best weapons.
And he fucked Bo up.
But that was a good fight for Bo because he came back from that and fought Hudolfo Vieira and looked fantastic afterwards.
Like he's a real competitor and a winner.
And the kind of guy that gets knocked down like that is going to get back up and be five times more ferocious.
And that's what he is.
But, you know, it's one of those things where it's like, why do you protect some people and not protect others?
You know, and is it because they have better management?
Is it, you know, because sometimes the UFC will tell you, like, if you want to fight in the UFC, hey, we've got a fight.
We need an opponent in four days.
Someone dropped out and you're going to fight blank.
And that person who you're going to fight might be a surging contender who's fucking terrifying.
He's putting everybody to sleep.
And you have to make a decision.
Like, this is not a good fight for me at this point in my career.
But if I say no to the UFC, maybe they will never offer me a fight again.
francis foster
And also, you're a fighter.
And fighters from everything that I know, you're going to back yourself.
joe rogan
Yes, but you have to do that intelligently, right?
You have to realize that if you are in a process, and this is the thing about everyone up into the championship level, up until a certain point in time when you plateau, everyone is constantly getting better.
So you get better from training, you get better from work with your coaches, but you also get better with experience.
And what boxers and boxing management has always done is make sure that you get the proper experience and the proper kinds of opponents are going to test you in certain ways along the way.
So the idea is you give a fighter a stiff test that they can pass.
You don't give a fighter a chance where they're going to compete against someone who's many, many levels above them and they don't have a chance at all because that can destroy confidence.
Charles Oliveira Physical Freak 00:14:07
joe rogan
They could cause real damage to you.
You can get really badly hurt and never be the same again.
There's certain fights that fighters have where they are never the same again.
They get knocked out by someone and they just aren't the same.
They get a flying knee to the face and they're done.
They get a head kick and they're done and they just are never the same guy again.
You can point to numerous examples of good fights where there weren't mismatches but that a fighter was never the same again.
konstantin kisin
It's a dangerous sport.
joe rogan
It is the most.
I mean, it's not the most in terms of death.
Boxing is the most in terms of death.
And I think that's because they have less options.
You know, you can't clinch.
You can't hold on, try to take a fight to the ground.
You can't defend yourself as well.
There's also the thing where you get knocked down and you get back up.
Well, you clear your head momentarily, but you're still fucked.
And now you can't get out of the way of punches.
Now you're really getting fucked up and you're getting much more damage than you would have gotten if you got clipped that first time and then the guy punched you a couple times when you're on the ground.
konstantin kisin
Or you got choked out.
joe rogan
Yeah, or you got choked out is way better.
francis foster
Yeah.
joe rogan
Choked out is way better.
Arm bar way better.
Just tap and then you're good.
francis foster
It's also the duration of the fight.
Boxing matches tend to last for a lot longer normally.
If they grow the duration.
joe rogan
They certainly can if it's 12 minutes, right?
You're dealing with 36 minutes of fighting of getting punched in the head versus 25 for an MMA fight.
The opposite of that, you would say, though, but they're not getting slammed on their head.
They're not getting kicked.
They're not getting kneed in the face.
They're not getting cut open with elbows.
There's a lot of things that can happen in an MMA fight that are way worse.
francis foster
But do you also think as well that when I watch MMA, losses, look, of course, losses are detrimental and they affect careers and they knock people back, but they don't seem to be as consequential as losses in boxing.
joe rogan
In terms of your career?
francis foster
In terms of your career and the way you're perceived.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
Well, I think it's accepted that if you're fighting a bunch of different styles, you know, style versus style, there's always a potential of losing, especially amongst the elite of the elite.
And you're seeing more of that in MMA at the highest level.
You're not seeing guys avoiding each other because there's one champion and it's a UFC champion in that weight class.
And you have to fight that guy if you want the title.
Whereas there's the WBC, the WBO, the IBF, and you have all these different organizations for boxing.
And so you can be a champion while avoiding the other champions.
konstantin kisin
Whereas in the UFC, that's the thing that's exciting: you get to see Max Holloway, who's a super dominant guy.
unidentified
Right.
konstantin kisin
And then he fights Charles Oliveira.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
And it doesn't go that way.
unidentified
It's crazy.
konstantin kisin
That was so dominant.
joe rogan
Yeah, it was so dominant.
And Max Holloway was a two-to-one favorite, at least at some points in the betting line.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
And it kind of looks, I mean, obviously, Hamza Chemayev is a whole category of its own, but it sort of felt a little bit that level of domination on the ground.
joe rogan
Yeah, the difference is Holloway was getting dominated on the feet, too.
Oliveira's fucking dangerous shit on the feet.
I mean, he was better everywhere.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
And he's bigger.
He's a bigger guy.
You could see that in the exchanges.
Like, every time he got a clinch on Max, he just hoisted him up in the air and slammed him to the ground.
It was so definitive.
That was a spectacular performance by Olivera.
konstantin kisin
It was.
joe rogan
The thing that my concern going into that fight was I'd watched the Matalis Gamrod fight with Olivera.
I'm like, Oliveira's as good, if not better, than he's ever been before.
Gamerot is fucking dangerous.
And he's a really good grappler.
And they went to the ground and he was lost.
Oliveira was just tying him up in knots.
He wasn't able to get anything off on Olivera.
I'm like, what is Max going to be able to do on the ground against this guy?
And then when it comes to standing up, Justin Gaetchy said no one ever hit him harder than Oliveira did.
That Oliveira, it's like he carries big power in his punches and big power in his kicks, too.
And he's so reckless on the feet.
Not reckless, I should say, but so aggressive on the feet because he wants you to take him to the ground because he's the best submission artist in the history of the sport.
He has more submissions than anyone ever in the history of the sport.
konstantin kisin
Wow.
francis foster
And the thing that you don't appreciate, I mean, you really kindly sorted out tickets for us in the UFC in New York.
And you know, these guys kick hard.
You know they punch hard.
But when you're there ringside and you feel the kick, oh, yeah, you guys are close.
joe rogan
That's the thing.
Is when you're close, you can hear the slap.
konstantin kisin
Do you know what happened, though, in New York?
We sat down, and then some guy that I didn't initially recognize came and sat in front of us.
And that was Dylan Dannis.
And he kicks off his hole.
joe rogan
Oh, the brawl.
konstantin kisin
She sat literally right in front of us.
joe rogan
Oh, you had a front row seat?
francis foster
Yeah, we did.
konstantin kisin
So the actual fight.
unidentified
Oh, boy.
joe rogan
Was that exciting?
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
Well, I just turned to the side and then there was this just giant brawl right in front of us all of a sudden.
joe rogan
Those are very unfortunate.
konstantin kisin
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
I don't like those.
konstantin kisin
Yeah, no, me neither.
It was crazy.
It was crazy.
joe rogan
Well, Dylan Dennis, he knows how to get a lot of attention.
konstantin kisin
Yeah.
francis foster
And I don't know if he does.
And I will say this.
I don't agree with his behavior, but unlike a lot of online trolls, that guy actually does it in real life.
Do you know what I mean?
unidentified
Right.
francis foster
He actually does.
I don't like it.
joe rogan
Dylan can fight.
He can fight.
He's a very good submission artist.
He's a Marcelo Garcia black belt.
He's very legit on the ground.
Connor McGregor brought him in for training, like for a lot of his camps.
konstantin kisin
Yeah.
Are you excited for the White House card?
That looks really good.
joe rogan
Yes.
I'm excited.
It sounds crazy.
I know it's going to be very high security and high stress and weird to have a fight at the White House in the middle of a fucking war.
I would hope the war will be sorted out by June, but quite honestly, I'm not confident that that's going to be the case.
konstantin kisin
No.
francis foster
Yeah, no.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
So that would be weird.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Having this very high-profile event where everybody's in one place at one time right there.
konstantin kisin
I hadn't thought of that.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
So you're not excited to be there.
joe rogan
It seems like you're asking for.
konstantin kisin
Holy shit.
I haven't thought of that at all.
joe rogan
How could you not think of that?
konstantin kisin
Well, because I'm not going to be there.
You're the one that has to think of it.
I was just like, this is a great lineup.
I look forward to the fights.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
Because if you want to talk about hidden hard, I mean, Ilya Toporia, fuck me.
joe rogan
That's when you think, like, Max Holloway and Charles Oliveira.
Charles Oliveira dominates Max Holloway, and then you realize how quickly Ilya DiPoria starched Charles Oliveira.
And you go, how good is that guy?
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
He's a once-in-a-generation talent.
Like, he knocked out in three fights three all-time greats.
konstantin kisin
Insane.
joe rogan
Volkanovsky, and then he knocks out Max Holloway, and then he knocks out Charles Oliveira.
In two different weight classes, he knocks out three all-time greats, three fights in a row.
And he just definitive starching of these guys.
Like, he's a once-in-a-generation talent.
konstantin kisin
And think how good Volk, how dominant Volk is.
joe rogan
Like, how good he looked against Diego Lopez.
How good Max Holloway looks all the time, especially in striking exchanges.
Max is a very hard guy to hit, and Ilya just dominated him.
He's fucking spooky good and insanely confident, insanely charismatic.
unidentified
Yeah.
francis foster
Do you think part of it as well is just technique is so important?
It's the most important thing because you look at Yusuk when he came up against Fury.
And the first fight, I didn't give Yusuk a prayer.
Like, Yusuk is basically a glorified cruiserweight.
And you look at Tyson Fury, 6'8, undefeated.
You know, he comes from a traveler background.
This is a guy who was taught to box from the age of three.
I've taught traveler kids.
They all taught how to fight.
They know how to fight.
They know how to throw punches.
Boxing is in their blood.
And you just saw that he was so technically supreme that Fury had no answer and lost consecutive fights against him.
joe rogan
Yeah, and then look at what he did to Dubois.
Usik is special.
I mean, he's basically a gigantic Lomachenko.
Like unbelievable movement.
And he was trained by Lomachenko's father as well.
Same trainer.
Yeah.
I mean, there's just people that are better than everybody else.
And it seems like Ilya Toporia is one of those guys.
He's just weirdly better than everybody else.
And he can take it too.
Like one of the fights that he had, so when he was competing at Featherweight, he took a fight at lightweight against Jai Herbert.
And Jai Herbert in the first round caught him with a perfect head kick, rocked him, dropped him.
And Ilya Taporia wound up grabbing his legs, taking him down.
They fought on the ground.
And then the second round, Ilya just put him into the shadow realm.
He hit him with a combination against the cage where he hit him with a, I think it was a left hook to the body and a right overhand that just spun his head around.
It was wild.
I mean, face first, face planted.
He's got freakish power.
So it is technique.
His technique is flawless.
His technique in the grappling is flawless.
konstantin kisin
Was he good at grappling as well?
joe rogan
He's phenomenal at grappling.
unidentified
Really?
joe rogan
That's his main base.
He started off as a grappler.
konstantin kisin
Really?
joe rogan
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
I didn't even know that.
joe rogan
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
In his early fights, he's just taking it.
konstantin kisin
Because you don't see that much nowadays.
He just fucking knocks everyone out, basically, right?
joe rogan
He's just, it's his mind more than anything.
His confidence is real.
It's not bluster.
Like, he's really, he celebrates the fights the day before the fight.
He has a celebration of his victory.
He did that against Charles Oliveira.
They all went out to dinner.
They're making toasts, celebrating his victory the night before the fight itself.
francis foster
That's a high-risk strategy.
unidentified
It's the crazy thing.
joe rogan
Meanwhile, I go out and knocks him out in the first round.
Like, who fucking knocks out Charles Oliveira in the first round like that?
Especially now, like the Charles Oliveira of today.
That's crazy.
It's many things, but the mind that allowed him to get so elite at grappling also allowed him to get so elite at striking.
And it's setups and traps.
It's not just throwing wild bombs.
It's defense.
His defense is fantastic.
You saw that in the Josh Emmett fight.
Josh Emmett, as far as one punch power, he rivals everybody.
I mean, you saw that fight where he knocked Bryce Mitchell out with a punch to the forehead.
That guy hits so fucking hard.
And when you look at it, it makes sense.
I mean, he's a fucking tank.
And Ilya DiPoria just slipped away from everything, slipped away from everything, and then eventually just put it on him.
He's great everywhere, man.
He's great on the ground.
He's great standing up.
And more importantly, it's his mind.
Like, he doesn't make mistakes.
He's just a force in there.
He's the new breed.
You know, like with every generation, every generation builds on the success of the previous generation.
They all learn from the elites of the past.
He's our version of what's possible now.
unidentified
Wow.
joe rogan
He's that good.
konstantin kisin
I was hoping.
I was hoping for the White House card, Dana would do something and pull John Jones out of the bag.
joe rogan
I was hoping that as well.
Yeah, I was hoping that as well.
konstantin kisin
That would have been really special.
joe rogan
Yeah, I don't know why that didn't happen.
I don't know.
I mean, there's John's version.
There's the UFC's version.
I don't know what was the stumbling block there.
konstantin kisin
Well, I think it's fair to say him and Dana don't get on very well.
joe rogan
I don't think it's that bad.
They certainly could make a deal.
I don't think it's as bad as, like, say, Francis Nganu.
The Francis Singano situation, like, Dana does not like him at all and won't do any business with him, period.
konstantin kisin
Because that would be the fight.
Francis Ngana versus John Jones.
unidentified
Oh, wow.
konstantin kisin
Oh, my word.
That would be good.
joe rogan
But also, Alex Pereira versus John Jones would be the fight as well.
Like, you wouldn't, it didn't, a title doesn't mean anything.
You could do the BMF heavyweight version.
Like, it doesn't matter.
Like, just those two guys fighting.
I mean, that would be titles are irrelevant when you're dealing with the all-time great in John Jones, the greatest of all time.
And then Alex Pereira, a generational talent who's the most devastating striker we've ever seen inside the sport.
I mean, as you look at Ilya, I mean, Ilya's phenomenal, but Ilya is like more complete as a fighter.
But Alex is freaky.
I ever tell you what Mark Goddard said when he fought Khalil Rowntry.
So he beats Khalil Rowtree up and they stop the fight.
And then Mark Goddard grabs me as I go into the octagon.
He goes, the sound it makes when he hits them is ungodly.
That's what he said.
He goes, mate, I've been doing this for 20 years.
He goes, I've seen it all.
He goes, it's different.
The sound, the impact is like, he's a freak, man.
That guy, he's a physical freak.
He's a real genuine Amazon warrior who's just built different than other people.
You know, I'm sure you've seen him punch that machine.
konstantin kisin
Yeah.
joe rogan
Where he gets like 190.
Francis Ngano got like 129.
unidentified
What?
joe rogan
And he got 190.
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
Holy shit.
joe rogan
No, it's freak power.
konstantin kisin
I did not enjoy watching the end of that Khalil Roundtree fight.
I'm not gonna lie, that was Khalil Roundtree is like a fucking animal.
joe rogan
He's a warrior.
He's just a warrior.
I mean, he knew going into that fight, he was willing to go out on his shields, he wasn't afraid, and he went after him.
He went after him.
konstantin kisin
He did.
joe rogan
But the consequences of getting hit.
And then Alex was starting to tune him up at the end where he was leaning away from shots and then countering and leaning away from shots and countering.
He was in his flow state, and that's where it got real spooky because Khalil became like a sitting target.
And with each shot, his ability to get out of the way diminished.
With each kick that landed, his ability to move diminished.
It got spooky.
francis foster
Yeah, and then it becomes a dilemma for the referee.
joe rogan
Yeah.
francis foster
Like, when do you actually step in?
Because, look, there's a consent for the fighter to be there and to take part in the fight, but there comes a point where you have to step in for the fighter's own health.
joe rogan
Yeah, there comes a point where you realize they can't defend themselves anymore and they're getting just tuned up.
And that was the end of the fight.
I mean, that was the right time to stop it.
But it was hard to watch.
konstantin kisin
It was.
But then you get fights like Usman versus Leon Edwards, where he's getting smashed for five rounds and he just fucking pulls a kick out of him in the last minute and knocks him out.
joe rogan
But he wasn't getting smashed.
konstantin kisin
Not the way Khalil Roundtree was at the end.
That's fine.
Yeah, that's fair.
joe rogan
He wasn't getting beat.
konstantin kisin
He was getting beat.
joe rogan
Yeah, but he wasn't in danger of getting stopped or really hurt badly.
francis foster
But that's why we all watch it because it's that knowledge that anything can happen.
unidentified
Yeah.
francis foster
You know, Hack Environment versus Lennox Lewis.
You know, no one gave no one gave Hakeem a prayer when he went in.
Right-Wing Debate Tactics 00:14:37
francis foster
He was Lennox, he is a supreme fighter, Olympic gold medalist, one of the greatest to ever do it.
And then that one punch he hit flush on Lennox's jaw and he was out.
I remember watching it going, I mean, no one saw that.
joe rogan
Especially in the heavyweight division, one punch with those guys.
konstantin kisin
It's why I really like it because in our world, like, you know, if I do a debate, everyone talks shit to each other.
And like, you know, everyone talks shit, then they go have a debate.
Everyone still talks shit afterwards.
In combat sports, everyone talks shit and then you find out.
unidentified
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
joe rogan
It's very definitive.
You win or you lose.
So it's not subject to other people's interpretations of because like you'll see that in debates too.
Like I'll see a debate where I think, like in for you, for example, well, you clearly won the debate and then I'll see people say you got owned.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
You know, and they're like, okay.
konstantin kisin
All the people who agree with me say I dominated and all the people who agree with the other guys say he dominated.
joe rogan
Yeah, and you'll see these pundits.
And that's a weird economy, right?
There's a weird economy of commentators on other people's exchanges.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
And it's that is a weird sport.
It's a weird.
konstantin kisin
You've made loads of careers.
There's loads of people.
Joe Rogan said this on his podcast.
That's the entire content.
joe rogan
They work for me.
They don't even know it.
unidentified
They do.
joe rogan
They make me more famous.
unidentified
Right.
konstantin kisin
You're getting all the kickbacks.
joe rogan
Also, you get to see what kind of a person they are.
Right.
And they're silly, bitchy people.
You go like, well, those silly, bitchy people don't like them.
Or maybe someone who you agree with doesn't like me.
Like, oh, well, I don't like him anymore.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Which is fine.
But it's like that economy of commenting on other people constantly.
The problem with that is you've always put yourself in a position of an outsider.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
You know, you're a comp like me, right?
And when it comes to combat sports, I'm a commentator.
That's all I do.
I can't fight.
I'm 58, right?
I'm not going in there.
So it's like I am always going to be in this position of only being an observer and a commentator.
I'm not going to be like for those people that are commentating on these debates, a lot of them probably fancy themselves intellectual gladiators.
They just don't get the opportunity to do it.
And occasionally they do, and they usually get trounced.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
Because really they're not that good, which is why they're commenting in the first place and why they have these fucking stupid hot takes.
konstantin kisin
Well, you know, the frustrating thing for me with the debates nowadays is how few people want to have an actual discussion.
It was so refreshing.
Last time we came here, we had Dave Smith on our show.
I don't know if you saw that one.
joe rogan
Yeah, I did.
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
We loved it.
joe rogan
It was great.
konstantin kisin
We loved it.
And Dave enjoyed it.
And, you know, it was weird because we obviously have lots of different perspectives on things.
But afterwards, a lot of people were like, oh, I can't believe you heard Dove on.
And I said to all of them, listen, Dave's only crime is that he has a different opinion to you.
Because apart from that, he comes in, he shows up, he's super nice, he's respectful, he's polite, he doesn't do any dirty tricks.
He doesn't argue about the definitions of words for 10 minutes, right?
He just goes, Here's my opinion, here's your opinion, let's discuss.
And that's how conversations should happen.
But so much of the debate stuff now is not, people aren't discussing the issues.
They've just like decided you're a bad person, and that's what they're trying to achieve.
They're trying to get a cheap laugh from the audience that they're playing to who's not even in the room because they know their retard followers are going to watch it online afterwards and be like, oh, he owned them.
But where did we get to?
joe rogan
Well, it's just, I mean, it's just some people that are doing that.
And those people, that's all they can do.
That's why they do it that way.
konstantin kisin
Right.
joe rogan
You know, if they were really intellectually compelling, and if they were like smart people, like, I don't want enemies.
Like, if I can have a sane, rational, peaceful discussion with someone where we disagree with something, I would greatly prefer that than have someone who's insulting me and I'm insulting them.
We're trying to get off on each other.
Like, why?
konstantin kisin
Yeah.
joe rogan
I'm busy.
konstantin kisin
Yeah.
joe rogan
I have things to do.
Like, I don't need that kind of bullshit in my life.
And I don't mind when someone disagrees with me.
I think it's healthy.
unidentified
You know what?
joe rogan
I also want to know why you think the way you think, genuinely.
Right.
francis foster
You know what?
I see it as an opportunity as like, because we all have blind spots.
joe rogan
Yeah.
francis foster
We all have blind spots.
We all have biases.
I don't care who you are, how smart you are.
You have biases, you're blind spots.
Not being microphone.
Oh, no, every stream.
But when someone goes, well, actually, Francis, you say this, but what about this?
Have you thought about this?
Have you read about this?
I'm like, no.
And it's like, well, maybe you should.
unidentified
Right.
francis foster
And maybe you actually won't change your opinion, but certainly have a more nuanced opinion.
unidentified
True.
konstantin kisin
But also, we're talking about shit that actually matters.
You know?
And it deserves to be taken seriously.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Well, the answer is don't engage with those certain people.
konstantin kisin
Yeah.
I'm learning that.
joe rogan
Yeah, we were having a conversation about one particular individual where I'm like, why?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Don't bother.
konstantin kisin
I can't believe you.
I didn't say anything about that discussion because I was just like, I don't want anyone to waste their fucking time watching it.
It was awful.
joe rogan
I'm fascinated by that too, though, because I'm fascinated by these people that are doing that, where they're just trying to win and use tricks and be sneaky.
Because they think of discourse in a completely different way.
They think about the whole thing in a completely different way.
They're completely ideologically captured.
And the place they're starting from is, I want to prove this to be correct.
Not I want to know why this person believes it to be incorrect.
And I want to find out if maybe we have common ground and maybe they know something I don't or maybe I know something they don't and let's find out.
francis foster
You know what?
You know what I really want?
And Constantine and I have talked about it a lot.
I want somebody on the left to come up and be brilliant at debating and go to people on the right.
Well, you say this and you say this, but actually, let's look at this, let's look at that, and be a genuine intellectual force.
And what I despair of is I haven't seen anyone be from the left like that in basically a generation.
joe rogan
I think the generation that you're talking about has been captured by some certain narratives that you have to agree to that aren't rational.
So as soon as you do that and you align yourself with this particular ideology, you're already saying, I'm willing to believe some shit that doesn't make any sense at all because this is the only way to be accepted by my tribe.
That intellectually compromises you.
And that also, I think, humiliates you in a certain way.
It puts you in a position where you're saying something that you know can't be true.
So you set up blind spots.
konstantin kisin
Do you think they know it's not true?
joe rogan
I think there's got to be a part of them that realizes there's a good argument that it's not true.
Especially when it comes to transgender stuff or border stuff.
There's certain things where there's no real good faith argument that you should have an open border and allow fucking any psychopath to come across the border and invade your community.
That seems crazy.
That seems crazy.
Like if you understand anything about human nature and the nature of the world and the level of poverty and crime that exists outside of the United States, particularly in third world countries, where you're just allowing.
francis foster
I thought you were talking about Canada there, Joe.
joe rogan
I'm all for them evading.
They should come over.
They should bail on their country until it gets better.
konstantin kisin
I just ask you because I would find it so hard to go on stage in front of, well, what is now hundreds of thousands of people by the time it goes on the internet, right?
And just vigorously defend something I didn't believe.
joe rogan
Well, that's because you're smart.
And I think the problem is a lot of these people aren't really intelligent.
What they are is a person who has a good vocabulary, who's acquired a certain amount of technique and skill involved in talking really fast and spouting things that they've seen online that are a bunch of narratives.
Like one of the things that people love to do is if you're talking to anyone that's on the right, they want to say, you know, you support a 34-time convicted felon.
There's a lot of things that they like to say.
There's techniques involved.
Instead of like discussing anybody that looked at the actual Trump case, if you're rational and you're on the left, you say, that's a crazy case.
There's no way that should be a felony.
It's not a felony.
There are 34 different misdemeanors.
And it's also, it's passed the statute of limitations.
This is the craziest, egregious misuse of justice.
And the scary thing is, if someone on the right gets in, they decide to do that to someone on the left.
Like, you got to put your foot down.
Stop that from happening.
The Russia, Russia, Russia stuff.
Like all that stuff, the Russia gate stuff.
That's kind of crazy that someone on the left doesn't call that out and say, hey, guys, this is fucking dangerous because if you're lying and you're having intelligence agencies lie and you're having people lie on television and you're just accepting that, why?
Because it's your side?
That's supporting your side?
konstantin kisin
That's right.
joe rogan
That's crazy.
konstantin kisin
That's why.
And I find that very strange because what they do is they pivot to that, which is not relevant to the conversation we're having.
joe rogan
Exactly.
konstantin kisin
We're talking about, you know, is it right to do these strikes on Iran or is it this or is it that?
You know, what's the situation in the Middle East or whatever?
How does bringing up Trump's convictions or otherwise change that?
It doesn't affect that conversation or the border or the trans thing or any of the other things.
And that's the thing is like, can we just argue the fucking point?
joe rogan
Well, I think at a certain point in time, you're going to have to choose real opponents.
It's like the Jake Paul thing.
konstantin kisin
But see, I want the real opponents.
joe rogan
Where are they?
konstantin kisin
Where are they?
And we've had people on the show where it's like we had this woman from the Guilty Feminist podcast, and she came on and we gave her 40 minutes.
She basically laid out her whole vision.
And it was respectful and polite, and it was a great conversation, actually.
The moment I said, well, you know, you've been speaking for this time.
Here's some of the things that I see that don't make sense in my head.
Can you help me out?
Immediately goes personal.
Immediately.
And that's what Francis is saying.
Like, I'd love to see people who have an ability to argue the point.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
And that's what Dave does.
He argues the point, and that's either persuasive to you or it isn't.
joe rogan
Well, I think the problem is their point is not very good.
konstantin kisin
Yeah.
I think that is the problem.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
And so you have to go personal.
You have to attack people.
You have to use ad hominems.
It's the only way you can get anything off.
And then you try to get that person emotional and trap them.
konstantin kisin
So why don't they change their opinion then?
joe rogan
It's a good question.
Because if you're ideologically captured, especially if you're on the left, like it's a very clear ideology and there's like real blowback for deviating from it.
unidentified
Yeah.
konstantin kisin
As we know, right?
Because the moment you say, well, you're no longer on the left anyway.
joe rogan
Well, a lot of people have been kicked out of it.
A lot of people have been pushed into some weird quasi homeless land.
konstantin kisin
Well, that's how we all ended up as like right-wing.
It was like, fuck off with this shit.
joe rogan
Yeah, fuck off with this shit.
konstantin kisin
You know, when I, 20 years ago, all the stuff that we talk about, it wasn't just not right-wing.
No one questioned.
Do you remember 25 years ago, people running around going, we need an open border?
unidentified
Right.
Right?
konstantin kisin
Or like, you can change your sex by just going labra, cadabra.
unidentified
Right.
konstantin kisin
No one said that.
unidentified
Right.
konstantin kisin
And so we weren't right-wing for like going, that's crazy.
joe rogan
I know.
francis foster
You know, the most bizarre thing is watching all these kind of left-wing lesbian feminists be described as right-wing and get it.
konstantin kisin
She's kicked out of J.K. Rowling as a master.
francis foster
There's a journalist called Julie Bindle.
He used to write The Guardian, one of the most left-wing journalists.
And she's lesbian and she criticized like, and she was like the trans movement.
That was it.
Out the door.
It doesn't matter what you've done before.
It doesn't matter you've done all this incredible work with women in female prisons.
joe rogan
Well, it's because it's a cult.
I mean, it's essentially like a religious ideology.
Like they will not take any heretics, like anybody that deviates from whatever their doctrine is.
Like, you're out.
You're out forever.
And that scares people.
So that's one of the reasons why they're willing to comply and follow some of this goofy shit and say, no one's illegal on stolen land.
konstantin kisin
What's interesting is it doesn't happen on the right nearly the same way.
Like you can see it now.
The right is engaged in a fierce debate internally.
And people fucking argue and they hash it out.
And then they go have a beer afterwards.
joe rogan
I think they're doing it just the same way.
konstantin kisin
Just the same.
joe rogan
I think it's a bio.
I think it's a human thing.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
I think there's people on the right that do it just the same way.
There's people that call people out for not being MAGA enough.
It's just like right now the whole thing's in turmoil, whereas there's not really the same kind of turmoil on the left where there's internal debate.
The turmoil on the left is the left versus the right.
The turmoil on the right right now, I think there's a lot of people right versus right.
And they're trying to find out like, and I think there's a lot of people that don't believe what they're saying either.
They're just trying to find a thing that aligns with the biggest audience.
konstantin kisin
I think that's definitely happening.
I also think, though, internal debate within a big, broad church movement is a good thing because what you're arguing about is like, what is the right direction?
unidentified
Yep.
konstantin kisin
And I do think that is more healthy.
I think working out what it is that if you're on the right, we believe.
I'm not on the right, but as I see that, I do think that's a healthy thing to do because you're arguing about the direction of that movement.
And I think that's much healthier than what happens on the left, where it's just like, well, if you don't agree with this wacky idea that's far, far out there, then you're no longer part of this.
joe rogan
But I think the good thing about these debates is it exposes that.
And anybody who's objective, especially anybody that is, you know, a swing voter or anybody who's in the middle of all this, which is a lot of people, a lot of people.
konstantin kisin
Most people, I think, right?
joe rogan
Yeah, most people are kind of in the middle on most political issues.
They get to see how crazy some of this shit is and it makes them less likely to follow.
francis foster
You know, but it's also as well from a neutral perspective.
And I mentioned the point about I want a strong left.
I want a strong left which has got good ideas about how to tackle things which are really important, like inequality, like the cost of living.
How do we make it that people can actually have a better standard of life?
Where if a woman wants to stay at home with her kids, she can do that, which then have to go out and have to work and put the kids in daycare, which then leads to a whole host of problems.
How can we have a better world for ordinary people, which is what the left always used to be?
We need a strong left to then challenge the right so that the center becomes a more fertile ground.
And if we don't have that, if we have these crazy loons on the left, then what we have is a right which will come to dominate, which I don't think is good for society as a whole.
Balancing Left and Right 00:00:37
francis foster
I'm going to be honest with you.
joe rogan
No, it's never good if one party, left or right, is completely dominant.
It's not good.
konstantin kisin
You need checks.
unidentified
Yeah.
Right.
konstantin kisin
And, you know, the right has its share of crazies too, as we've been talking about.
joe rogan
100%.
Praise Jesus.
unidentified
All right.
joe rogan
We've got to wrap this up.
Gentlemen, I love you guys.
francis foster
Very quickly.
joe rogan
Oh, your book.
francis foster
Yeah, I've got a book.
It's out there.
joe rogan
It's called Uneducated My Life as a Teacher and Why You Should Never Become One.
And Never is in Bold.
konstantin kisin
An inspiring story.
joe rogan
Francis Foster.
unidentified
All right.
joe rogan
I love you guys.
francis foster
Thank you so much, man.
joe rogan
Bye, everybody.
unidentified
Bye
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