The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #2417 - Ben van Kerkwyk

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Nov. 25, 2025 - The Joe Rogan Experience

02:48:07

Joe Rogan Experience #2417 - Ben van Kerkwyk

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ben van kerkwyk

02:07:46

joe rogan

35:28

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jamie vernon

01:40

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Joe Rogan podcast, check it out!
		The Joe Rogan experience.
		Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Ben!
		See, gimmick.
		So last time you were on, we barely scratched the surface of all the things that we wanted to talk about.
		So immediately we're like, we've got to do another one quick because you want to talk about the Sphinx.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		The Sphinx, yes.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we were on, we got into the well, the labyrinth was kind of the big labyrinth is nuts.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I still haven't been able to get over it.
		The 40-meter metallic shaped tic-tac-shaped thing that's in the ground.
		Like, what is that?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Well, I hope we'll find out.
		I mean, I don't know.
		The wheels do turn a little slowly, but the point of that was to try and drive some awareness.
		Maybe we'll get some sort of angel investor in there to go and look at it and solve the problem, do something.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Someone needs to talk to Elon.
		Yeah, I'm not the guy.
		I talked to him.
		He's too much as it is.
		He's too busy.
		But someone who can't do that.
unidentified		He's solving all problems.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, he's someone, or maybe Bezos would like to be the first guy to get in there.
		Someone has to get in there.
		You have to figure out what that thing is.
		That's crazy.
		This might be one of the biggest mysteries in the entire human civilization record.
		Yeah.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Who's the guy?
		Who's the director that went to the bottom of the Cameron?
		I mean, he likes going places that nobody's gone before.
		They tell the hole and get down.
unidentified		Maybe.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Someone should do it.
		They just, I don't think enough people know.
		A lot of people know that we're listening to this podcast, but not enough people that would do something, that can do something.
		You know what I mean?
		It's like we reach a lot of knuckleheads.
unidentified		We reach a lot with a wide variety of people, but the percentage of people that have the resources to make something happen.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They have to work something out with the Egyptian government, right?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So they have to do something with those dams.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Well, and you don't have to, no, I don't think it takes the dams.
		You would have to remediate the water on the site, at least like somehow box it out, right?
		You've got to drain, you'd have to drain this massive area.
		Or at least if you were targeted enough, you might be able to drain a smaller area to then excavate in that area.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		We should probably explain to people that didn't listen to the last podcast.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Just a real quick synopsis.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Real quick synopsis.
		So the labyrinth, we're talking about the great lost labyrinth of ancient Egypt, which was described by figures like Herodotus, Diodorus, Siculus, Pliny the Elder, figures from antiquity, these authors, and they've described it as being greater in magnificence than the pyramids.
		They had these just mind-bending descriptions of what this site was, like multiple levels, 3,000 rooms.
		You would get lost in it.
		It had giant courtyards with pillars all made from.
		I mean, one guy, I think it was Strabo, described the roof as being a single piece of stone, which I don't think it was, but it's describing those perfect joins that you see in the real megalithic work from Egypt.
		So it's this giant mystery.
		We know it's there, and it was kind of lost to time until we found it again, basically.
		It was discovered.
		It was always known about because there were clues about its location.
		It was always theorized to have been at this place called Hawara, which is near the Fayoum in Egypt.
		And, you know, Petrie went there and dug it up, a Flinders Petrie in the late 1800s, early 1900s, and he found massive stone slabs, and he thought he was standing on its foundation like it's been quarried and taken away.
		And rather than that, though, it turns out he was most likely standing on the roof of like the top layer.
		It was like 10 meters below the ground.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's so nuts.
unidentified		Quite in.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		But then the Madahar expedition happened, I think, in the mid-like 2017 or 2015.
		There was an expedition run by a guy named Louis Decordia in partnership with the Egyptian government.
		They used ground-penetrating radar, sonic techniques, like well-established subsurface techniques.
		And they found it.
		They found these massive cyclopean walls that were meters thick.
		It was a labyrinthian structure.
		It's well verified.
		It's below the water table level of what's on that site now.
		So you have water table sort of five meters below the surface.
		The labyrinth starts at nine, ten meters.
		And that was, there's some controversy, some controversy around that report because it was buried.
		Like, so he found it.
		They never published the report.
		It was squashed by Zahir Wass.
		This is according to Louis Decordier.
		He threatened him and his team with national security sanctions if they talked about it.
		It just was put away.
		He waited a few years.
		He finally released the report.
		It's like, holy shit, we found the labyrinth.
		And then this then spurred some other companies to use some of these new space-based scanning techniques.
		There's been at least two that have been done, very different techniques, but they found the same thing.
		They found that there is, in fact, a massive underground structure at this place called Hawara.
		It goes much deeper than what you could reach with those ground-penetrating radar and those established techniques.
		60, 70 meters below the ground.
		There's multiple levels, three or four levels.
		And they correlate.
		So one scan's a statistical model.
		Another one that uses high-frequency photography along with, I think, seismic data, very similar to the Doppler tomography work that's being done by the Italians at places like the Giza Plateau now.
		And they both correlate.
		Yes, there's a big structure, but one of the most interesting facts that came out of this scan was it seems like in this massive central Atrium that's that's just one big giant open room 40, 50 meters long that connects to all of these levels, there seems to be this unidentified metallic object that's freestanding in this room.
		It's about 40 meters long and it seems to be tic-tac shaped.
		Is what is what this report said?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So it's a fucking Ufo in Egyptians, did it?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I don't know.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I mean, could you tantalizing, could you imagine?
		Could you imagine, if they get in there and they really do find a recovered spacecraft?
		Yeah, then what?
		What do we do then?
		Because if this is a public excavation that's the question yeah, we'd have to bring in the seals.
		We need to like, lock that place down.
		Maybe we need to occupy Egypt just to figure out how to get this done.
unidentified		Occupy Hawara let's let's, let's just occupy the whole country.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You'd have to bribe them something, give them money, whatever you got to do.
		Like if I, if I, was a president, that would be like my number one priority.
		I mean it, you know.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah it's it's, it has the potential.
		I think I, I there's been a little bit more of this from Egypt.
		They've uh the, I guess the establishment there.
		They seem a little more willing to engage in some of the the mystery.
		I genuinely do think that that's that discoveries like these can, can only help and boost tourism like it's gonna.
		All we want is to bring people in.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It will bring way more.
		Could you imagine if they actually figure out a way to drain all the water out of the labyrinth?
		They give you a tour and show you the spaceship.
		How much you pay in to see this spaceship.
		Bro, i'm paying a ton of money to go see that spaceship.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		That's a special permission.
		Like that's the way we do they.
		They're very good at that.
		Like there's.
		There's a lot of places you can now go in Egypt that are these special permissions.
unidentified		It's thousands of dollars, but you know we go yeah much money.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		People could charge like 10 grand.
		They could charge like a lot of money just to go look at the spaceship.
		Might yeah might, it'd be like Mecca, like Mecca for ufo dorks.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It would be insane to see.
		Depends what, who knows what.
		Well, the guy did say too, it didn't seem like any metal that he'd seen before.
		Like it.
		He couldn't identify what type of metal it was.
unidentified		It's alien right, it's element one for sure it's alien.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's made out of that same stuff that comet's made out of the Ai Atlas.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Oh yeah three, the Three Eye Atlas the, whatever it is, the thing that's off gassing some nickel, nickel alloy or something.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's a giant nickel the size of Manhattan.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's jetting towards the sun.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Although didn't NASA come in, I think they released their images, I think, recently.
unidentified		I can't believe that.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		There's some images they came out and said, oh, the comet's doing this and doing that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's doing a lot of weird stuff.
		But it definitely seems to be a comet.
		Unless you ask Avi Loeb.
		And he's like, anything can be a spaceship.
		He's got a point.
		He's got a point.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		He does.
		We don't know what one would look like.
		We've not seen.
		I mean, it's a small sample size as it is for interstellar objects, right?
		We have three to compare.
		But two of them have been really fucking weird.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I think the point we're getting at is, and this is the point of all these conversations, is that there's some stuff that is yet to be discovered that has previously been discovered that might be like, it might blow the dam down on all this stuff to the point where like, okay, whatever you think happened here, a lot more happened, and it seems way crazier.
		If the stuff underneath the Giza Plateau is correct, and if the stuff, which is like, what?
		And if the labyrinth, if they can show you that this, not only was Herodotus depicting an actual place, but we can show it to you and it's preserved and it's been under the water for 50 years.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it would be amazing.
		And yes, I think some of these things would knock down everything.
		It's a house of cards, right?
		I think there are elements of that that are obvious.
		I mean, not obvious, but people can explore them and it starts to knock down the house of cuts.
		It's how people end up with this, just looking at the contradictions in ancient Egypt.
		But there are other examples of what I would say, like these things like the Madahar expedition that have been discovered, but then sort of covered up and kept secret.
		And a lot of them have to do with, you have the same tie-in with these ancient stories and accounts from history, not just from the Roman and Greek historians, but also the Arab historians, like Al-Masudi, for example, Herodotus of the Arabs, they called him.
		He talked about tales of these tunnels and chambers beneath the Sphinx, that there were rooms beneath the Sphinx that then led out to like three different tunnels.
		You have a number of other Arab historians from as far back as like 600 AD that have stories of getting into the pyramids and then getting lost in tunnels and chambers beneath them.
		Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of these crazy, you hear these stories of like the Hall of Records, right?
		The people like Edgar Casey, the American psychic in the 1940s who, you know, he would, have you heard of Edgar Casey?
		Yeah, he must have.
		So he would fall into these trance-like states and he'd have these visions.
		He's called like the sleeping prophet, they would call him, or he's like one of the Americans' psychic.
		And he wasn't just about things around Egypt.
		He did prophesize and talk about locations for three halls of records, which were these Atlantean caches of information, like a pre-diluvian civilization.
		He did call it Atlantis.
		But he would also have these predictions about the stock market.
		And a lot of people made a lot of money based on his predictions, and that led to the – He was really good at it?
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		So apparently he went, I mean, whether he was like, I don't know.
		I mean, I have.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Because that's always the question when it comes to psychics.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		If you're a real psychic, why wouldn't you make all the money in the world from the stock market?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It did happen.
		There was a lot of people who made a lot of money, and he did evidently too as well.
		And so that led to the formation of something called the Edgar Casey Foundation, or the ARE, the Association for Research and Enlightenment, is the name of them.
		They're still going strong today.
		And they've been looking to try and find his halls of records.
		And they've been trying to verify Casey's predictions.
		One in particular that they've been chasing down is the famous Hall of Records, which he said was beneath the paws of the Sphinx.
		So there's not, you know, the stories of this Hall of Records and these rooms beneath the Sphinx go back thousands of years.
		Like, I mean, just not just the Arabs, but also Herodotus and these other guys also talked about that whole area, the Sphinx and everything else being vastly more ancient, even than the pyramids.
		But there was some work done that happened in recent times, like in the 1990s.
		Well, there's been a search going on since the early 70s that the ARE has been involved in.
		And a lot of this is quite secretive.
		A lot of this has never really come to light.
		But there's some, until very recently, in fact, there's been some footage that came up that showed that there are, in fact, tunnels beneath the Sphinx that may well have been explored.
		We're not quite sure.
		But it's an interesting story.
		So it does involve Mark Lehner and Zahi Huass, who are the authoritative figures involved in Egypt.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Are they bottlenecking this as well?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Do I have to go give them a hug?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Maybe.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Come on, guys.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Join us.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Allegedly.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		We'll blow you up.
		We'll make you so much more popular.
		Well, it will help.
		We'll get you more tourism.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I think the current guys that have been running the Department of Antiquities are embracing a little bit of that idea, but I do think there's been a little bit of gatekeeping that's happened.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it's a generational thing.
		I agree.
		And I think when you are an academic or you are a person that's in a position of power like Zahi is, and you've been running things for so long and this new thing comes along, it's very threatening.
		And when there's a lot of movement and momentum behind it, it's very threatening.
		But that thing will just embrace you.
		If you say, oh, my goodness, look what we've learned.
		We've learned more new, amazing things about, wait for it, Egyptians.
		It's the same people.
		It's just older.
		It's just older versions.
		Like, this is why it's so dumb.
		It's like you're just, you are only allowing part of the narrative to go through about how magnificent this culture is.
		It's already the most magnificent culture in human civilization.
		And in terms of history, when we look at it, nothing is anything like Egypt.
		It's crazy.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		No, and it wouldn't.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I imagine it's bigger and crazier.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		And richer.
		It's just richer and a longer history in this place.
		It's still like it is.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's the most magical place in the world.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it is unfortunate.
		I was just talking about this just yesterday, in fact.
		The nature of establishment being to resist change, right?
		It's unfortunate.
unidentified		Control.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Control and to resist change.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		To maintain control, not lose control.
		That was the fear.
		The fear is if I am a self-professed expert with an institution behind me with a nice name, and then all of a sudden some fucking asshole with an Australian accent comes along, a tech guy who becomes a YouTuber because he watched some asshole's podcast when he was younger.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yep, pretty much.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		This is true.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But it's you and Graham and Jimmy Corsetti and all these other amazing people.
		And you guys are, you're showing the world that there's another side to a lot of these stories, and it's a legitimate side.
		It's not just a legitimate, it's an unfathomable side.
		When you're looking at some of the stuff, like Baalbeck, you're looking at those stones, there's unfathomable things that no one is saying they're unfathomable.
		No one's saying, we don't know.
		Everyone is saying, don't worry about it.
		We got it all figured out.
		Like, that's crazy.
unidentified		I agree.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I think embracing them.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		And I think I've made this point before, but it's the nature of the discourse that's changed that has forced, I think, a stronger reaction from the establishment.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The general public views things differently.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Well, the general public's involved in the discussion now.
		If you go back more than 60, 70 years, I mean, general public didn't have access to this information.
		They were, I mean, these discussions only happened in societies and in universities, but with the rise of firstly alternative authors and then the internet, now everybody's got a chance to have a platform and a set of ears to hear this information.
		And it becomes more popular, guys.
		Like you have had a huge impact on the popularity of these topics.
		And that's, I think, what is threatening.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Always been popular.
		The problem is they haven't been legitimized.
		Like these ideas have always been popular.
		It's just nobody gets, it's like there's a food that you want that no one's serving.
		You know what I mean?
		That's what it's like.
		It's not like it wasn't popular.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Like I'm not unique in my interest in ancient Egypt or in ancient civilizations.
		Everybody has, look at, let me ask men, like, what do you think about ancient Rome?
		Guys think about ancient room all the time.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's just a normal part of being a person that lives in a current civilization wondering what it was like in the past.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And then when you see something like Egypt, you're like, none of this makes sense.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		No, there's massive contradictions.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		And I think.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It seems so old.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Well, it does.
		And I think what's made this, well, let's call it alternative perspective much more possible, even plausible, is all of the adjacent fields of science and work that is basically providing a plausible context for these ideas that there was an ancient lost civilization that is responsible for the roots of some of the things we see in these civilizations, responsible for some of the technological enigmas that we find on these sites.
		And that, you know, that's this is all stuff that's happened in recent years in adjacent fields of science, things like the extension of the human timeline, the evidence for severe erosion on these sites, our understanding of climate history, and extension of cataclysm.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Timeline is huge.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		That's huge.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Because, you know, we were just, Jesse Michaels and I were just having a conversation about this.
		I was like, imagine if you would not lose any cognitive abilities, no decline at all, and modern science figured out a way to let you live a thousand years.
		Imagine if you're a person who's working on material sciences and you're doing like 3D printing, you get to live a thousand years and you're a researcher and you still show up at work every day for a thousand years or 10,000 years.
		That sounds nuts, but it doesn't.
		Because if you can extend life, you can extend life for a very prolonged, especially with gene editing and a lot of the other crazy, who knows if they already figured that out back then.
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ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I mean, there seems to be some evidence that they might have.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What about the Sumerian kings list?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Well, this is a big part of it.
		Yeah, I mean, not just them, but almost every civilization that talks about even the Bible, it talks about pre-diluvian or pre-flood civilizations, often talks about people living for hundreds of years, if not longer than that, thousands of years.
		You have an Egyptian kings list that does the same thing, but even in the Bible, Noah was 600, right?
		So you have, yeah, I think something like that.
		You have many examples of these, what they would describe as pre-cataclysm or pre-flood civilizations where people live for a long time.
		But you just, I mean, not just there's an extension of individual human timeline, but we also know that there's an extension of the human, like how long humans have been here.
unidentified		Right.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Right?
		Because that's going back further and further all the time.
		We have skulls and fossil record evidence now where it's just slightly more than 300,000 years.
		Genetic and studies into teeth morphology make the possibility open to whatever, 700,080,000 years ago.
		There was a skull found.
		Yeah, I mean, I think that was more, I think that's more of a Homo sapien clay to skull.
		So it's like it may not be Homo sapien exactly us.
		It might be a variety, but that's a whole other aspect on this too, is that where the last humans left, right, there were other types of humans that we know live for, in some cases, a couple million years that had similar, like even bigger brain sizes than we did.
		We don't really know what their capabilities were.
		We only can work with ourselves.
		And then you combine that lengthening of time of like, okay, you have an intelligent social species that has the ability to build on knowledge of your, you know, your ancestors.
		So, you know, one guy spends his life making a spear.
		The next guy spends his life perfecting how to throw it.
		We have this unique ability to stand on this knowledge that's passed down from our direct ancestors and therefore build up our capability and it inevitably leads towards civilization.
		And if you stretch that way back in time and now you look at things like the climate history and the history of cataclysm on this planet, this possibility that these civilizations may have arisen and then been completely destroyed at some point over the last several hundred thousand years, you can't just dismiss that.
		There's a strong possibility that it's possible.
		And in fact, there seems to be a lot of other contextual evidence to support it in origin tales, in stories, in the echoes of sacred geometry and advanced mathematics and knowledge of the cosmos and also planetary dimensions and geodetic data,
		all this stuff that's encoded into these monuments and into these stories and tales that we can't explain how these so-called primitive civilizations like the Egyptians or the Sumerians knew this information, yet it's there and it's encoded in their monuments and in their data.
		But we can't explain.
		Even the Greeks, you can't explain the precision of some of the aspects of things like the pyramids.
		But yeah, I mean, you just, and again, with the cataclysms that we know have happened, the younger drys just being the most recent, but if you go back several hundred thousand years, you have these massive, you know, interglacial periods and glacial maximum periods, right?
		That these cycles that we go through, where you have this big glaciation buildup, and then you have just, you know, these, what must have been catastrophic floods, and then interglacial periods.
		In fact, there was a period called the Aeolian period.
		It was about 120,000 years ago.
		That was very much like the Holocene that we're in today.
		In fact, it lasted longer than the Holocene has currently lasted.
		We've been in the Holocene maybe 10,000 years, 10,000, 11,000 years.
		I think the Aeolian period was more than 15,000 to 20,000 years where it was stable weather.
		Sea levels were like three, four meters higher than where they are today, but it wasn't like this.
		It wasn't like the Pleistocene, it wasn't like the height of a glacial maximum where it's a difficult place to live.
		It was a calm period.
		I mean, the only reason our civilization is here today is because of the nice weather of the Holocene, right?
		We have warm weather.
		We haven't had massive catastrophes that have been extinction level events kind of thing to get in our way and knock us back to the Stone Age.
		There was a similar period like that that lasted longer than we've been in this nice period, about 120,000 years ago.
		And if you consider after that, the cycles of glaciation and flooding, then particularly the younger dryest, there'd been just almost nothing left.
		It's just the stone in places that survived what happened afterwards.
		So I do, my range of possibilities for, okay, when did these artifacts originate?
		Like when did some of this architecture originally be built?
		It's not to me just 15,000 years ago.
		It could be 100,000, 200,000 years or even more.
		And again, more contextual evidence to support that is things like the erosion that we can see on some of these sites.
		One of my favorite topics in the last couple of years has been looking at the erosion on the Giza Plateau.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I wanted to bring that up.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		And of some of the big monuments, in particular, like the whole middle pyramid complex on the Giza Plateau.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Let's show some of the images that you used in some of your videos because it's pretty fascinating when you look at it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's kind of undeniable.
unidentified		It is.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		And what's fun about this is too, is that we don't have to guess, right?
		We know how long it takes.
		Studies have been done about limestone erosion.
		Turns out there's almost an endless number of conveniently dated limestone slabs all around the world.
		They're tombstones in cemeteries, right?
		So you can, they get dated, they get cut, they get inscribed with the date when it was put up.
		And then so you can measure it and you can come back over whatever, decades and measure erosion.
		And so how long does it take for this face of this limestone erosion to recede?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		This is the nutty stuff.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Because we're assuming that unless something happened to the outside of that, that this was at one point in time flat and smooth.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, 100%, because there are still blocks that are protected.
		So a lot of this has been rebuilt.
		This is tricky to see.
		So you can actually see that the less eroded sections are actually modern restorations because this is so eroded that it's falling apart.
		And this isn't even the exterior of the structure.
		This is the interior core masonry.
		All of this was also, for God knows how many thousands of years, encased in granite.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It also points to a trend.
		It points to a pattern that when human beings find ancient things, they do renovations to try to keep them apart.
		Yeah.
		Which is one of the things that's been canonical.
		Yeah, over and over and over again.
		We've talked about that.
		There's so many structures that seem like there's multiple timelines working on the same exact ground.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It is 100% a human tendency to renovate and restore all of these, to reuse these sites in a gross way, like what they do with the Sphinx, like the pause.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's gross.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		But we're renovating it and restoring it to use it as a tourist attraction.
		Like the Romans renovated and restored it to use as a ceremonial center.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But it's a very shitty version.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I agree.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The original.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I agree.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And there's a lot of assumptions.
		You're assuming you knew the form of it.
		You're making your own form over the feet.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that was one of my problems.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		They were talking about restoring the middle pyramid, like the third pyramid, like the Menkara pyramid, the small one.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Small.
		It's monstrous.
		But it has these granite casing stones, right?
		And the last of the top four or five courses are still there, but it was at least 15, 16 courses of granite.
		And there's just all this granite, these massive granite blocks and rubble.
		And Mustafa Waziri, who was at the time the head of the Department of Antiquities, was talking about, we're going to rebuild it.
		We're going to put it back together.
		And I know this.
		And I'm like, please, no, because what an asshole.
		Well, he did something cool, which was he excavated in front of it.
		He did show that the courses keep going down.
		But then he's like, we're going to restore it.
		I'm like, dude, they would use concrete.
		It would be a facimile of what it once was.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Is he still around?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		No, he actually, because he said that, there was a lot of international outcry for that very reason.
		And then, in fact, the government formed a tribunal to figure out what to do.
		The tribunal was headed by Zahi Was, and he lost his job.
		So he's not in that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Restore pyramids, bro.
		That's crazy.
		Nobody wants to see the restored pyramids.
		I'm all seeing what's left.
		Yes.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Well, we can use our imaginations to, they are restoring a lot of things.
		I don't necessarily agree with this either.
		Things that are actively falling apart, sure, you need to buttress them.
		Like a lot of this wall.
		So this is part of the Middle Pyramid complex at Giza, and there's a lot of blocks like this.
		There are limestone blocks that are 11, 12 meters long, like four meters wide, you know, two, three hundred tons that were stacked up on top of each other and they eroded so greatly on the inside that they've actually fallen over at some point in antiquity.
		They've fallen off.
		And so they are trying to buttress and support things that are going to fall.
		I'm all for that.
		But I mean, there's a lot, just the amount of erosion that it takes for that to happen to blocks like this, of this pneumolytic limestone, which is a very hard form of limestone, full of fossils.
		And you're talking like two, three feet in some places of erosion of limestone.
		And if you look at the studies that have been done into like limestone erosion rates, and there's been several, they've studied them in coastal wave action environments where it's like getting battered by waves.
		They put in rivers.
		You know, they put limestone cubes on the top of one of the governmental buildings in DC and left it there and studied it over decades.
		And they're like, okay, it's tiny amounts.
		But in a normal weathering environment, right, this is assuming a lot more rainfall than what happens in Egypt, which gets very little rainfall, by the way.
		But a place like Washington, D.C., or somewhere where you get like 40 inches of rain a year, something like that, it would take just normal weathering erosion to do two feet of erosion like this more than 100,000 years.
		And so, and that's, I think you can extend that because if, well, the thing is, maybe there was more rainfall here at some point.
		We know there was after since about 4,000 BC, the African humid period was in place.
		That's another big, I think, tell for what happened, particularly on the Giza Plateau and the sites in Egypt.
		In that, you know, one of the things that always mystified me about the Sphinx is like it's spent so much time buried in sand up to its chest over the last several thousand years, more time than it hasn't been.
		We have to work pretty hard to keep the sand out of it now.
		In fact, there were multiple attempts to dig it out of the sand in the 1800s that failed.
		And then they just literally two or three years later, it's sort of buried up to its chest again.
		Seems like a design flaw.
		Like, why would you build this thing in a low spot in a windy desert where it's going to fill with sand?
		It's just, I don't think.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Who's it attributed to again?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Kafra.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And then wasn't there an inscription where Khafra said that if he could uncover the Sphinx, he would be the Pharaoh?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		This is right.
		It's actually Thutmosis IV.
		That's called a stelae in front of the chest in there in the Sphinx.
		So Thutmosis IV about a thousand years later.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So he was the one that was saying if he uncovered it.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		So we knew it was buried in sand during the dynastic Egyptian.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That was what I was going to get to.
unidentified		Yes.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So that's the, so during that time, no erosion.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Well, this is a whole, yes, so there's a whole other post.
		Right.
		So this is another big issue with the wind and sand erosion.
		When you talk specifically about the Sphinx enclosure, I mean, this is one of the big controversial, I mean, for example, the face is an eroded.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		And if it's wind and sand, that's the only thing that's exposed.
		And that's not as eroded.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It's been one of my major points for a long time.
		It is, to be fair, it is, the yarding, the sedimentary layers of limestone, it is a slightly harder form of limestone, but still, you're talking thousands and thousands of years where the only thing above the sand level was basically the face.
		And it's then, and they explain all of this deep erosion on the body of the Sphinx and the Sphinx enclosure to wind and sand.
		I know, obviously, Robert Schock is a different interpretation.
		But yes, you would see erosion on that.
		You just don't.
		I think the most plausible explanation for that Sphinx is that, yes, the face was recarved in the dynastic period, probably could have been by Kufra.
		Actually, may well have been before that as well, because there's other evidence that suggests that the Sphinx was already buried in sand at his time.
		The attribution to Kufra comes from two main sources.
		One is its position.
		So where the Sphinx is, you have the middle pyramid, you have the causeway that runs down, and you have the middle pyramid, you have the pyramid temple, the complex where we were seeing that erosion.
		You have this massive causeway that runs down to then the valley temple, which is this very famous, massive megalithic structure.
		And right next to the valley temple is the Sphinx.
		And in front of that is the Sphinx Temple.
		So they sort of attribute it and make it, well, it's part of the Middle Pyramid complex.
		The other attribution comes from what's been written on that dream stela between the legs of the Sphinx at its chest.
		It does say Kufra on there, but there's a lot of, it's a controversial statement to say that that means Kufra built it.
		There were several Egyptologists who had different, and this is back in the early 1900s, they had different interpretations for what that said.
		What they believe it said was Kufra was trying to do what his ancestors had done before, or that Thutmosis was trying to do what his ancestors had done before.
		And Kufra is mentioned there in terms of dig it out of the sand and become king.
		Like excavate it from the sand.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's the move that everybody goes through.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it's propaganda.
		It could be a great explanation for that dream style.
		It could also just be like governmental propaganda, right?
		So you could put that in there and say, see, I'm divinely ordained to be king because I dug this out of the sand.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Just in the interest.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, just in the interest of keeping this standalone, please explain to people the whole deal with Dr. Robert Schock from Boston University and the water erosion.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I know, and if you've heard this before, I'm sorry.
		I just want it for people that are like, what?
		The water erosion that appears to be thousands of years of rainfall.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's actually good.
		It's good background context because it does apply to not only the Sphinx.
		It's the most famous example, I think, and well-known example of, again, an adjacent field of science coming in and challenging some of the doctrine that's been around Egyptology.
		But it was actually Schwaler de Lubitz, who originally, I think, proposed it.
		His work was followed up by John Anthony West, who then brought Dr. Robert Schock, who's a professor of geology at Boston University, to the Sphinx.
		This was, I believe, the late 80s, early 90s.
		And he went and looked at the erosional patterns.
		So the Sphinx sits inside an enclosure.
		It's carved from bedrock.
		So it was originally what you would call a yardang, which is like a limestone outcropping.
		And so they cut down in this big enclosure and they cut the floor and then they sort of shaped the Sphinx from this natural outcropping of bedrock.
		So you had, and we know this because the structure next to the Sphinx or in front of it called the Sphinx Temple is actually, you can line up the sedimentary layers of the blocks that are in there from the Sphinx enclosure.
		So we know that there were blocks taken from here.
		So this is all predictably sort of cut walls and the Sphinx would have been nicely finished when it was.
		And he looked at these patterns.
		If you go there today, I think I have pictures of the walls of the Sphinx enclosure in there.
		And it's just these deeply eroded vertical channels.
		And the Sphinx body is harder to tell because it's been restored so many times.
		The ancient Egyptians restored it.
		The Romans restored it.
		We restored it a couple different times.
		Yeah, yeah.
		But the nice thing is the walls of the enclosure really haven't been touched.
		So you can see the natural erosive patterns.
		And he looked at that and went, that's rainfall erosion.
		But not just some rainfall erosion, literally the result of thousands of years.
		The only way you would get these patterns in the stone is with thousands of years of rainfall erosion.
		Obviously, geysers are really, really dry.
		I mean, Egypt's a really dry place these days.
		You have to go back to time periods pre-4000 BC when the Sahara was a savannah.
		It was grasslands with lake basins and river systems, and it had a lot more rain.
		You didn't have this annual flood cycle that you have now.
		It was like a lot more rainfall.
		It was much more verdant and green.
		The Giza Plateau would have been green.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Which makes sense that that's why they would settle there in the first place.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they didn't build it in a desert.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you wouldn't, because it would fill up with sand.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It also makes sense why they would flourish because they had so much resources because it was so green and fertile.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Right.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Probably had plenty of plants, plenty of animals.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's a really other good point associated with that that I wanted to bring up.
		But first, just to finish on the Sphinx erosion, so when Schock came out and said this, he really thought he was moving the story forward.
		And he took it to an archaeological conference and they literally laughed him out of the room.
		And they said, this is ridiculous.
		Like, where are the potsherds?
		Was I think Mark Lanner's comment saying, like, where's the evidence that something's at least 12,000 years ago?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Mocking.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Mocking them.
		Yeah, so he got a good taste of the, I guess, the old boy network, the archaeologist on that day.
		But he's, you know, he's being very conservative in that dating also of saying, well, 12,000 years, it could well be tens of thousands of years.
		And in fact, it seems more likely to me based on the erosional evidence that we see not only in the Sphinx enclosure, but elsewhere on the Giza Plateau.
		There's many places where you see just a huge amount of erosion that you can't really explain within the timelines and the climate of dynastic Egypt as we know it from roughly 3,000 BC till even now, because it's still eroding, right?
		But yeah, it could be vastly more ancient.
		I actually think there's something else that came out, was it earlier this year?
		I think it was much earlier this year or maybe late last year.
		But there was a study done that showed that during the African humid period, so this period of time before the desertification of Egypt, the Sahara becoming a desert, when it was green and there was more consistent rainfall, there was obviously a lot more water in the Nile, as we call it, and it had different channels.
		One of the things they discovered was that there was a branch of the river Nile, and it's called the Aramat branch.
		And it was in places up to a kilometer or most of a mile wide.
		So it was quite an extensive branch.
		But it turns out that all of these valley temples on all of these pyramid sites from Dashur and Saqqara, Abyssya, Abu Ghraab, Giza, all of those valley temples were built on the shores of this extinct branch of the Nile.
		So it's like pyramid comp, you know, pyramids, when you look at a pyramid, it's not just a pyramid, there's a whole complex associated with it.
		There's a temple, there's a structure at the pyramid, there's a causeway, there's what they call valley temples down.
		And it's like these were all built on the shorelines of this branch of the Nile that went basically disappeared somewhere between 4,000 and 3,500 BC, but it was in place for thousands and thousands of years before that.
		And today, if you go there and they say, well, you know, the valley temple, yep, they would ship the stones from Aswan and it'd be like three months of the year it would flood enough where you can get a boat.
		I mean, I've seen pictures.
		There are pictures of when that flood happened before they built the dam and stopped that process.
		And it's, in some years, it's a puddle.
		Like, there's not, I mean, you're talking about boats that were carrying hundreds of tons of granite.
		And only in a three-month period of year can you get them in there?
		There's many, there would be many years where there's not even remotely enough water to get it anywhere near the valley temples.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I don't think they even use boats.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I know, I don't either.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It sounds crazy to say, but I think they had a technology that we haven't even begun to mess with yet.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		The logistical achievements of the ancient Egypt, of what is represented in ancient Egypt is like nothing you can see anywhere.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I mean, there's Baalbek, and then there's, to me, the best example is the statue at Tannis.
unidentified		There's a statue.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I mean, there's several of these thousand-plus-ton statues.
		Like half a dozen of them.
		You get remnants of them.
		But there was one that was moved a thousand kilometers.
		A thousand kilometers.
		And it would have been, it was a single piece granite statue, easily a thousand tons.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Show that image, Jamie, if you would, please.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I think it's giant objects in there or something.
		And this is Tannis in the Delta, Aswan down here at the quarry.
		I mean, downstream on the Nile, there's another example of the one at Karnak that's the whole shoulder and arm of a composite quartzite, again, gigantic, size of the Statue of Liberty, basically.
		Like single-piece granite solid statue.
		I mean, there's all these pieces.
		That's a small one.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Which is insane.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Look at the people in the background and say that's a small one.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's only 200 tons.
		I mean, it's 250 maybe.
		It's not.
		You have them 10 times almost that size.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The crazy thing is also how beautiful it is.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Like how symmetrical it is.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		The workmanship on these is astonishing.
		And you can still feel, like, this is one of the signs, I think.
		When you get to the finishing on some of these statues, that's a giant kneecap.
		There's one with an arm and a shoulder sort of poking out.
		That's a really good example.
		That's Baalbeck.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The point is, when you talk about how beautiful, like how that one that's lying down, Jamie, there's a back one, a couple.
		That one.
		Yeah.
		Look at the finishing on that.
		Like how incredible.
		You see his nipple.
		You can see all the, you know what I mean?
		Thousands of years later.
		You see the detail on the headdress.
		You see all, and then you have to realize, like, this was done with people that didn't have steel.
		Yeah, and you can see.
		Supposedly.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		I mean, yeah, later periods, like in the New Kingdom, they had some more iron, not necessarily steel.
		But you notice something else here.
		Like, see that cartouche?
		See how poor that is relative to the finishing of the face and the chest.
		So this is the other thing that happened.
		This is why no one's sort of like you don't get archaeologists saying, well, there's statues.
		We don't know who made it.
		We know who made it because they put their name on.
		That is literally Ramses II's cartouche right there.
		I recognize it anyway.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's awesome that you recognize that.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		If you come to Egypt, you'll recognize it too.
		Petrie called Ramses II the great usurper because he put his name on fucking everything.
		And he carved it in deep like this, too.
		He would have it be him and his father, Seti I and his son Marinpata, they were all in that business of rebadging some of this stuff.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So they would find old things and they would put their name on it.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		They would claim it for themselves.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I think it's the nature of, I mean, during that period in the New Kingdom, in the 19th dynasty, you know.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's all, I did this, all me.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was the height of dynastic Egyptians, Egypt's power and wealth.
		So they had all of this, I think, hubris and arrogance to make themselves one of the gods.
		And it's one of the, I think, these statues, there's a lot to unpack in these because I also happen to think that when you look at these massive statues, you can't really explain with the capabilities of the dynastic Egyptians.
		I think it also explains their iconography because if they inherited these giant statues, like it's those are the gods.
		Like you're looking at this.
		Imagine a statue the size of the Statue of Liberty standing out in the desert and it's just sitting there looking at you with this face.
		And the craftsmanship on these are amazing.
		You can kind of see it here.
		You see how the eyeballs are like tilted down almost?
		And it looks like a smile on the face from here.
		But it's perspective.
		When you stand beneath them and you look up at them, they're looking at you.
		And it's not a smile.
		It's just like a straight line.
		It looks straight.
		They've shaped these faces for perspective as if you're viewing them from the ground.
		They're absolutely incredible.
		And there's also been studies done on some of these to show the faces are pretty much perfectly symmetrical.
		Again, that's crazy.
		Not something that you can achieve.
		Or not something that's done in modern artwork.
		The perfect symmetry.
		It's not even a characteristic of a human face.
		Like we aren't like that.
		Our nostrils are different sizes and whatever.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Because we're hybrids.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		We could be.
		We're imperfect.
		We're imperfect beings, Joe.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I think they made us.
		I think they made us.
		I think something came here from somewhere else or something was already here.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Intervention theory.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Did something with lower hominids?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Have you read Lloyd Pye's work?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Never heard of it, but I haven't read any of it.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It's everything you think you know is wrong.
		Fun lecture.
		Rest in peace, Lloyd.
		And there's some interesting genetic evidence that I think suggests that as a possibility, our chromosomal difference between us and other mammals of our type.
		Almost like we've had these, the tellurides have been attached.
		We've been genetically engineered.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Greg Braden talks about that.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we have some real strange characteristics for being on this planet.
		Like we die of exposure at 80 degrees in the shade.
		We can't look at the sun.
		You ever see dogs?
		You've got a dog stare at the sun like this.
		You're like, what are you doing?
		Like, I'm fine.
		Why can't you do that?
		You can't even see at night.
		We have no benefit of night vision.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's interesting also when they look at all these other versions of humans that they find.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Almost all of them were more durable.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Oh, broomsticks to axe handles durable.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Like it's multiple gaps of.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But isn't that kind of in the Bible?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Doesn't the Bible say the meek shall inherit the earth?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Well, we're the meek when it comes to.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's like we're the meek.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we're just the meanest, maybe.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		We're the meanest.
		We're the meanest and the trickiest because we had to be, which is like all animals.
		When, you know, you have to, you're small.
		Like, hyenas are fucking ruthless.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The reason why they're ruthless is because lions are bigger.
		They had to figure it out.
		You know, they had to just be fucking mean and nasty.
		And I think we probably wiped out or interbred with everything that wasn't us.
		And that's a wrap.
		Sorry.
		Sorry, your big bones don't work on arrows.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You dummies didn't figure out catapults yet.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Guerrilla tactics.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Guerrilla tactics, technology.
		I mean, I think that's also probably one of the reasons why we're so obsessed with making better stuff, including weapons.
		Yeah, yeah.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think so.
		I mean, there is, I don't rule out the.
		I mean, personally, my opinion, I think there's a either via panspermia or intervention theory like that, where we've been, there is a huge mystery as to both our species and then how life itself kind of kicked off.
		Like that's even panspermia is like kicking the can down the road problem.
		Like how do you, how does DNA happen?
		Because one of the most interesting things to me is like DNA as a technology has never changed, right?
		So from single-cell organisms right down through to us, the way life is expressed as a technology, DNA, like how it expresses life has changed, but DNA, I don't think has changed.
		Like it's like this one way that life expresses itself and how it forms is like the actual origins of life.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's DOS.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's DOS.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It is human operating system.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Life loss, life operating system, something like that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What is your take on those tridactyl mummy?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I think there's.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Did you see Jesse Michaels' episode on it?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Not all of it.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I've seen some of it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The scans.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You see the scans?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I've seen the scans.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I saw some of the information.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I don't want to get tricked.
		So I'm like, but Jesse said that seeing them in person, I just talked to him about it.
		He said it was otherworldly.
		He said it was incredibly strange, like very, very surreal seeing them in person because it really does feel like it's a different species.
		Like you're looking at some different species.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		My take on that stuff is, honestly, it's like, sure.
		To me, the whole alien other life in the universe was settled.
		I mean, it's a mathematical certainty.
		Like, I just, the Kepler mission showed it.
		Like it's a mathematical certainty that life has to exist in other places on the planet in some form.
		In some form.
		And then you multiply that out across the span of space and time.
		Is it possible that we're being busy?
		Is there something to these phenomena?
		Yes.
		I think so.
		It doesn't.
		I'm skeptical that we'll ever really, I hope maybe my lifetime will know, but would it change what I'm doing if we had that realization?
		Not particularly, I don't think.
		It's just like we could be part of the Galactic Federation.
		I'd be like, oh, that's cool.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I think it'll give additional perspective.
		Like, let's go way out there and put that fucking tinfoil hat on tight.
		If they open up the labyrinth, if they figure out a way to drain the water and they do find out that that 40-meter-long metallic thing is something from another planet.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Multidimensional.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Something from another place.
		Or maybe break up civilization.
		You know, there's a lot of people that think that there were, like, there's us, and then there's Neanderthals, right?
		And then there's, okay, they all coexisted at one point in time.
		What if this thing coexisted with us as well?
		And this is a different version of what we will eventually be.
		Just like, let's imagine human beings we maintain a presence on this earth for the next 30 million years.
		Let's just imagine that.
		Could be crazy, but it's happened before with crocodiles.
		If we did, what would chimpanzees be like 30 million years from now?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Evolution wouldn't stop, right?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Right.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's not going to stop.
		They're already using tools, right?
		There's speculation.
		I mean, there's various scientists that believe that you can make an argument that many primates are in the Stone Age.
unidentified		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That they've entered into the Stone Age.
		So let's assume that this keeps moving in that general direction without our intervention, which I'm assuming some foreign countries probably would engage in that, and one of them might be America.
		Secretly, if we're doing this gain of function research on viruses that wind up killing a million people, you don't think that we're going to, if there's some sort of a, look, there was talk during the, I believe it was World War II, where Russia was, there was talk of some sort of a hybrid between a human being and a chimpanzee and trying to devise that for soldiers.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Real, right?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's real.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
		There's some very strange and interesting experiments that happened in that period of time.
		So what if those little fuckers – Kept going?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What if those little fuckers are like the OGs?
		Like they're us, like a million years from now.
		And what we are, you know, the chimps are a million years later.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		Right.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's what we are right now currently.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They are what we're going to be.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And then they went, fuck it, we're going in the ocean.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Well, fuck, right.
		Yes.
		That's a possibility.
		In fact, the breakaway civilization concept's not a new one either.
		Like a lot of ancient cultures looked at places like even the moon as a refuge.
		They would call it a refuge.
		Like that's a whole other theory.
		Like what's going on with the moon?
		Is there something happening up there?
		Was there something that happened with it in the past?
		Right.
		Yeah.
		I mean, this is, it's, it's, to me, the whole, it's all of these things are completely plausible.
		Like, I just, I don't, I tridactyls or the, yeah, I mean, the, the UFO phenomena, I mean, this could have been going on for a long, long time.
		I certainly would include some sort of otherworldly craft as potentially one of the explanations for what that thing is beneath the ground at the labyrinth.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, even if it's not anotherworld of craft, whatever the fuck was going on where someone could make a 40-meter-long metallic thing thousands and thousands and thousands of years ago.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		40 meters is half of a damn football field.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's big.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's big.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		And stick it underground for some reason.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, right.
		In a corridor or in a huge atrium?
		Okay.
unidentified		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Like what?
		All bets are off.
		If what those Italian scientists are saying is underneath the Giza Plateau, all bets are off.
		You're looking at something that is like as kooky as the pyramids are, that's the tip of the iceberg.
unidentified		True.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and that's why I wanted the labyrinth was so interesting because their announcements around what they, these 800-meter shafts and massive cubes kilometers deep under the plateau is kind of came out of nowhere.
		But there are these accounts for these other places like the labyrinth where there's some like historical legitimacy to them.
		Like there's been accounts of them.
		Although, you know, over time, what they're talking about beneath the Giza Plateau, maybe not to the full extent of what they're saying, I'm still having trouble with that, but there's certainly a lot more.
		We know there's a lot more down there, right?
		That we, at least the public, has never discovered.
		We know that there are, so beneath the bottom of the Asira shaft, for example, we know that there are further tunnels that go off from there that go underneath it.
		The Asira Shaft, for people who don't know, is one of the, it's like a, there's three passages, like three rooms, and it goes down a little over 100 feet or so beneath the ground, beneath the causeway on the middle pyramid complex.
		You go down this big ladder, you go into one room, you go down another ladder, there's a bigger room with boxes in it, and you go down a further ladder to the bottom room, which also has boxes in it.
		Today it's the water tables way up high.
		But we know in the past, this is one of the things that has recently come to light, is that down there in the bottom in the 1990s, that was scanned with ground-penetrating radar at the bottom level.
		And they found, yep, there are actually like four meter long, eight feet high tunnels with dome ceilings below that, even further, that nobody, as far as we know, have ever explored.
		There are also tunnels leading off from that bottom level that head off towards the Sphinx and they head off towards the pyramid.
		And in fact, they fork because there was a little known exploration done by a team of Japanese scientists in the early 2000s that got like a camera on a long pole and they shoved it down through the mud and they stuffed it about 20 meters into one of these tunnels and they found these man-made structures, like tunnels, and it forks and it actually forks off and one seems to head towards the Great Pyramid and one keeps going up towards Khufra.
		So there's tons of stuff below there.
		In fact, if you ever go to the Giza Plateau, that causeway, if you're heading up towards the middle pyramid, you've got the Asara shaft on the left, but on the right, you have, I mean, 10 of these massive shafts that we don't really know how deep they are or whether or not they've ever been fully excavated.
		But they just go way down into the ground.
		So this could be like, you know, it's like the very top layer of things that are being claimed by the Italian scientists and their scans.
		But there was, we know that these tunnels extend down to beneath the Sphinx, for example.
		Like there's long been rumored that there's a tunnel, an entrance at the back of the Sphinx.
		In fact, if you go there, there's a little box and a little hole.
		It doesn't go anywhere.
		I've stuck a camera in there and had a look.
		But this is what happened in the 1990s.
		So, you know, John Anthony West, I'm sure you've seen The Mysteries of the Sphinx, right?
		Super famous documentary.
		Yeah, I know he has, but you've seen his work on the story.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, yeah.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Wonderful documentary, Charlton Hestrom.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Charlton Heston, yeah.
		That's when that archaeologist is mocking.
		Yes.
		Graham Hancock and John Anthony West.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
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ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so he produced he did that research, I think, in 1991, 1990, 1991.
		It came out in John Anthony.
		He actually won an Emmy for Best Documentary, I think, for it.
		It was totally warranted.
		But so he, as part of that work, had a guy named Tom DeBecky, who was a ground-penetrating radar expert.
		And he did work around the Sphinx and he found the existence of like large regular chambers beneath the Sphinx.
		And then when that documentary came out, I mean, allegedly, Zahi was incensed by it because it talked about Atlantis and it made the suggestion that this might be, you know, a hall of records.
		It talked about Edgar Casey.
		And he then denied after that, John Anthony West and Robert Schock any permits to do any further work.
		But what's weird is that Zahi and Mark Lana have this long-standing connection with the Edgar Casey Foundation, which is like this weird dichotomy.
		It's like on the public facing, they decry anything Atlantis based, but then on the private side, they seem to be enabling explorations by the ARE.
		And in fact, they've been enabling the ARE to do drilling experiments and other things at the Sphinx since the late 1970s.
		And there was an expedition, notorious one, that no one ever knew what happened.
		It was called the Shore Expedition.
		Dr. Joseph Shaw, Joseph Johodo, and then a guy named Boris Saeed were running this shore expedition.
		And Boris Saeed was a friend of John Anthony West.
		He was the executive producer for Mysteries of the Sphinx.
		And this happened in like 95 through about 97, 1997.
		And they partnered up with Zahi, gave them a five-year unlimited permit to do whatever they wanted up on the Giza Plateau.
		And one of the stories that came out of that was a story.
		So Boris Saeed, who unfortunately has also passed away since, but he talked about filming Zahi What?
		He said, well, we got to the back of the Sphinx.
		And he said, you know, we want to make another documentary like the Mysteries of the Sphinx.
		And he said, well, what if we open up a tunnel that no one's ever opened up before?
		And he's like, that'd be great.
		What sort of tunnel?
		He said, well, a tunnel under the Sphinx.
		And Boris Seed said, that'd be fantastic.
		So I actually filmed him going into the rump of the Sphinx, standing down in there and saying, you know, the quote is something like, even Indiana Jones wouldn't believe that he was here.
		We're standing inside the body of the Sphinx.
		Nobody knows where this tunnel goes, but we're going to open it for the first time.
		And he's down in this space with it, with basically a blocked up tunnel beneath the Sphinx.
		And he filmed all of this, but then this footage all disappeared.
		So during the expedition, it was kind of shut down.
		And then they got into a legal dispute, like Boris Said and Joseph Shaw got into this battle.
		The footage was never seen, but he went on Art Bell in the late 90s and talked about it.
		And we're like, God, damn.
		So this, you know, they also talked about they did stuff at the Osiris shaft.
		They did that ground-penetrating radar work.
		They did sonic experiments in the Great Pyramid.
		There's a lot that happened at this Shaw expedition, run by the Ed.
		They're all ARE members.
		And the stated goal, Joseph Shaw, was always to find the Hall of Records, right?
		I mean, this all continued into 2000s too with that organization.
		But there was all this tantalizing mystery of this footage.
		Like, where the fuck is this footage?
		Apparently, the Department of Justice had a copy of it because there was this lawsuit that was going on.
		And nobody knew.
		So it's kind of out there.
		And then it was only like earlier this year, it turns out that, so what happened?
		So Boris Said was sick with liver cancer, but he was trying to raise funds to make this documentary.
		So he put together this tape with some of this footage from this expedition.
		And he was selling VHS copies of it as a way to invest in this documentary.
		And then like a year later, he just, that's when he passed away.
		So there's been a handful of these VHS tapes out there in random homes from the mid to late 90s, just sitting there with this tape.
		And then eventually someone this year actually digitized it, put it up on YouTube as an unlisted video.
		I found out about it.
		And so all of a sudden, now we actually have this footage.
		We have Zahi going into the Sphinx at the back saying yeah, if you, Jamie, if you pull up my, I think it's the latest or the couple latest videos about the rare footage found from the Sphinx, it opens with that footage.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Dude, thank God you're out there.
		I'm so excited that you do this.
		It means so much to me that you do this.
		I love doing it.
		I know you do.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It's fascinating.
		I've known about this footage for years and years.
		And I'm like, oh my God, somebody found it.
		Yeah, this is it here.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So there's Zahi.
unidentified		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So he's going into this tunnel.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so you can still, this still exists, but then this is, yeah, where he is now doesn't.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What happened?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Well, the story gets more and more intriguing.
		So yeah, this is him saying the line saying, we've never opened this tunnel before.
		We're in the body of the Sphinx and we're going to figure out where it goes.
		So, yeah, so after that, so Boris, they filmed that.
		This is the early days.
		So yeah, I'm walking around the back here.
		I think I poked my camera in there, but I talk about it later on.
		So Boris Saeed, who had filmed this with Zahi, goes, he talks to them about, let's make a contract, let's have Zahi open the tunnel.
		Like we'll make the documentary about him opening this tunnel and we're going to show it to the world, you know?
		And they talked about it.
		He went back to New York and he never heard from them again.
		They never mentioned this contract.
		Nothing.
		He never had any further contact with Zahi about it.
		And then funny thing happens in Egypt about, I don't know, eight, nine months later.
		And this is, as reported by Robert Boval and Graham Hancock in their book, Heaven's Mirror.
		And also I found it in the Arabic publications.
		But about eight, I think it was six to eight months later, Zahi makes an announcement in El Aram and these Egyptian publications in Arabic that says, I've made this incredible discovery.
		I've discovered tunnels and chambers beneath the Giza Plateau.
		That's going to change everything we know about the ancient Egyptians and the pyramids.
		And he talked about finding three tunnels, one that was like on the north, one on the south, and then one that was yet to be determined where it went.
		And he made this announcement and then never said another word about it ever again.
		Whoa.
		And this is just in the Arabic papers.
		And here's the funny thing, is.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But could it be because there's nothing there?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I suspect something else.
		I suspect that even if there was nothing there, you'd still he would have stuck a camera in there and looked at it.
		Suspect, I think it's more likely that, yeah, they found something that might have upset the apple cart and it doesn't get.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I can't imagine if they are sitting on information.
unidentified		Oh, I think you think, yes, I do.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I think there's been plenty of excavations and discoveries that I think were inconvenient for one reason or the other that have probably never seen the light of day.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's a crime against humanity.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		A little bit.
		I think so.
		I mean, it's, you know, the funny thing that he's, what he said too when he's, when I read that comment he makes about three tunnels, that's that's that's what Al Adressi and El Masadi said as well.
		Like this, these Herodotus of the Arabs, like six to eight hundred AD, when they went down, they described the same damn three tunnels, like chambers and rooms.
		It's like lining up with these historical, same as the labyrinth.
		Like it's lining up with these historical accounts, and then it's just you don't hear another word about it.
		And when you go to the Sphinx today and you finally pop that little box off its butt, the whole thing's been backfilled.
		Like the whole, where you see that camera, where Zahi was standing, that steel beam's still there, but where his head level is, where he's standing, hey, this tunnel goes, it's like the dirt level's here now.
		Like it's all been backfilled.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's so crazy.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's so crazy.
		Why would you do that if there wasn't something in there?
		You would only do it if there's something in there.
		Unless it caved in.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		To be honest, it's my concern also with the Great Pyramid and the chamber there.
		Is that I first of all have my suspicions that they may well have already taken a peek with an endoscopic camera into that hidden void.
		So this is, you know, the scanner.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Does your suspicion based on anything in particular?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		No, no.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I just, no, just just my experience with how they do things.
unidentified		Yes.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		So it's, there's always, I mean, I just, there's very little transparency when it comes to a lot of these digs and stuff.
		And this isn't just the Egyptian.
		This is, I think, I mean, it's not a criticism.
		It's maybe more characteristic of archaeological digs everywhere.
		Sometimes the way this works is you might have to wait 20 or 30 years or a decade for information to come out because then it has to get perfect.
		If someone has to publish a paper, they sit on that information until that point, or maybe it never sees the light of day.
unidentified		I mean, because it's inconvenient.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Well, I do think that, I mean, anything that's going to seriously upset the apple cart, like if they came out and found something that was, oh, damn, we found the Hall of Records.
		You know, we found this evidence that is incontrovertible that suggests that there was a predecessor culture and a predecessor civilization to the ancient Egyptians.
		I think there would be some long and hard thinking about whether or not we actually release that because it's going to make everybody look bad.
		You know what I mean?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Like it upsets crazy, though, that make everybody look bad would be the motivation to keep one of the most important discoveries ever from the human race.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's fucking nuts.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It is.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		We're even thinking about this.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		And I love your approach.
		I think you're absolutely right, too.
		Even if these figures, all they'd have to do is embrace it.
		All they'd have to say is look at what we learned.
unidentified		Yeah.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		And everyone would be like, that's amazing.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And if it's still a Egyptians, it's Egyptians that go back 30,000 years or whatever it is.
		Or more.
		That's so crazy.
		But also, wouldn't that excite more people to be more interested?
		Wouldn't that increase the economy?
		Wouldn't that increase the tourism?
		It would increase everything.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it would.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It would make everybody more excited about archaeology.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I think you've got to embrace the mystery.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		There was a trend towards squishing it for a while.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		There's no way you could know everything.
		It's not possible.
		Especially when you're finding these new things.
		It's clear you don't know everything.
		If they're finding new things, you don't know everything.
		If there's a 40-meter-long metallic object in a labyrinth, it's in a giant atrium that's under the fucking ground, you don't know everything.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think it's worth taking a look.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Geez, you think?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, let's at least take a look.
		Let's drill like a hole.
		Like, figure out, we know we're from the scan, kind of where it is.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Like, we were took a borehole down and we were talking before, you were saying that there might be a possibility of digging a tunnel under the water through to the bottom because the actual area where it is is not in the water.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		That's so the scans seem to indicate it is likely free of water, is that is the terminology I heard from the scan interpretations?
		It's true to say that the issue with the water at Hawara in the labyrinth is the groundwater.
		So, it's this seepage that's coming in from the north.
		And it's so presumably at some point you do get to a form of bedrock that may well be impermeable.
		And if it's sealed and you're cut into that structure, then yeah, you may well be free of water or it might be, you know, it's sealed off the groundwater.
unidentified		You can fuck up and let the water through the hole and try to dig a tunnel and flood that too.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		For sure, some of it's in the water.
		Like the upper levels of the labyrinth, so from the ground-penetrating radar scans at the Madahar expedition, I mean, you have these granite blocks that are like three, four meters wide and this huge labyrinthine structure.
		That's sitting in, I mean, I'm sure it's full of sediment too.
		Like, it's not like there may be some cavities and open, everyone's like, can we dive on them?
		Like, it's full of, it's literally mud and sediment, a lot of it.
		And that's sitting in this sort of salty, brackish groundwater that I suspect is not going to do great things to that granite if it's left for another 50, 100 years or more.
		So there is a pressure to remediate this problem and I think to save what's down there.
		The deeper layers, however, seem like there's a possibility that they're free of water.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Has there been any proposal to do that?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Is there any proposal to figure out a way to reroute the water?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		So this is what I talked about in the video.
		There were some studies that started to happen to try and do that.
		And then the guy who was running the study got thrown in jail for talking about it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Nothing since then.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Nothing since, as far as I know.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Tell Zahi he can come on again if he does it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I'll have him back.
unidentified		I'll mention it.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I would love to.
		I mean, I think it's a solvable problem, though.
		That's the thing.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		We're going to get Zahi to do mushrooms.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's what we have to do.
unidentified		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		We'll have to get him to just drop it all.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It'd be interesting.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Cut the bullshit.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Become the sun god.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no, I don't know.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, just let everybody love you for doing that because they would if we just changed, turned, turned a new page.
unidentified		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Just said, all right, let's just, let's go crazy.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I think, yes.
		Yeah.
		He's, yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		He wants to be loved.
		He wants to be respected.
		He does.
		Everybody does.
		So open it up, baby.
		Let's go.
		Give me a hug.
		Open it up.
		Start digging.
		Yeah.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Let's go.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Let's sink some boreholes and get some pumps in there and get this water out of here.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		These are those moments where I wish it was Elon Musk.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Because you want an engineer to get involved as well.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		You'd need all of that.
unidentified		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You'd need like Army Corps engineers, someone who's going to be able to figure out how to move water.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Take a real big French drain, you know?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Just figure it out.
		It can be done.
		It might take decades, but it can be done.
		I think it can be done.
		The result would be insane.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I think you could do it too in a targeted search.
		I think you could start in a small area where you know.
		Do some more, I mean, more surveys too, like more GPR, more surveys, more scans, and really narrow in on like a section.
		And then, like, let's see if it's if what we're seeing on these scans is there, then maybe do the site.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I have a feeling it's one of many.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I really do.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I have a feeling that whole area, that whole complex, you're going to go as if they can really prove that there have been civilizations that have been there for 10,000, 20, 30,000 years, I think it's going to reveal itself one layer of the onion at a time.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And it's today, it's like it is a symptom of the climate that we only really look in the Nile Valley, right?
		Because the dynastic Egyptians settled in the Nile Valley because when they started, it was a desert.
		That was the habitable part.
		But if you open up the possibility that there's a precursor civilization that was existing in the millennia prior to that, now you've got the Sahara.
		You've got to figure out where the lakes, the river systems, the lake basins were.
		And there's very little of the Sahara that's fully, you know, we're not looking under the sand there.
		We're developing new scanning techniques.
		Let's start looking there because I think there's a, you know, the Assyrians, this crazy place at the back of the Temple of Seti I in Abydos, and it's sitting on top of this aquifer.
		It's like this big subterranean granite structure.
		And I'm like, I bet this was, I think, clearly some sort of functional thing.
		And I bet there's a bunch more of these, but we just don't know where they are because they're under the ground.
		We just found this one.
		Well, Seti found it when he built his temple, and he's like, holy shit, we found this giant granite subterranean structure.
		Let's turn the temple this way.
		But yeah, I think there's a strong possibility as well that there's a lot more of that stuff.
		And even to their credit, archaeologists suggest the same thing.
		The scope and scale of what is under the sand in Egypt.
		I mean, I think even most mainstream archaeologists will tell you like 70% of it's still as yet undiscovered, at least.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That is so crazy.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's such a crazy thing to say when you look at what has been discovered.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's nothing quite like it.
		I mean, Luxor, what do they say?
		The stats around Luxor is like one-third of the world's antiquities in this one area, just at Luxor.
		And that's not even the Giza Plateau.
		That's just, that's Upper Egypt down at Luxor with the West Bank and the Valley of the Kings and Karnak Temple.
		It's astonishing.
		And they're still digging stuff up.
		There's a Amenhotep, the Temple of Amenhotep the second or third is Closso of Memnon.
		These giant six, 700 ton statues are like the front door to it.
		And they're slowly excavating this monstrous temple behind it.
		And they keep finding these remnants of these colossal statues.
		I've heard rumors, just rumors.
		I'm going to Egypt like next week.
		Hopefully we can, I want to get a look at this.
		And I've heard rumors that they found like a hand from a statue that's even bigger than the biggest ones we've found so far.
		So they might have found a segment of a statue that was one of the largest ever, which would be astonishing because who knows?
		I mean, there's some evidence that they made stuff like that.
		I mean, we talk about a thousand tons, and that's mind-boggling enough.
		But there's actually a quarry in Egypt called Minya.
		It's like the unfinished obelisk, right?
		It's like the unfinished obelisk, still attached.
		They never pulled it out.
		It's 1,200 tons.
		But at Minya, there's these, it's like limestone, and they've cut these blocks out.
		They're still attached.
		They made these blocks, and there's even an inscription, like a rough inscription of a seated fair, like a seated figure on a throne, sort of drawn on that as if that's what they were going for.
		But if you take the density of the limestone in the Minya region and you calculate its volume, it's in the realm of 5,000 tons.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, who knows what was there originally?
		I mean, I just, I think it's baffling enough that we have this, you know, these logistical achievements in that anything above really 300, 400 tons is, Christ, above 100 tons over any distance is a massive challenge for anyone.
		I mean, us to move that sort of a load over the roads and things we have now.
		I mean, shit, even in Peru, you find similar logistical achievements.
		Like, I was just, I spent, just came back from five weeks in Peru.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I want to talk about that, but I have to pee so bad.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so let's pause real quick and we'll be right back.
unidentified		Sorry.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Sorry about that, folks.
		And we're back.
		Have you speculated why they wanted things so big?
		Or was it just that they had the ability all of a sudden at one point in time in their development?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you can't make, to me, any argument that these giant statues are functional.
		They're clearly symbolic.
		And it's almost like a challenge to history.
		It's a monument through history.
		I mean, there's some indication that things like the pyramid, the great pyramid, are markers and they're demonstrations of their knowledge and capability.
		We can talk about that in a minute, but there's with the statues, it's no, to me, it's just like, look at us, look how mighty we're like, it's like the same reason we, I mean, why do we make Mount Rushmore?
		We make some big monuments, it's like to leave a monument or some sort of marker behind.
		I mean, the Sphinx, for example, could be a marker in time when you look at it in terms of the great cycle and the fact that it was likely a lion and it's facing due east.
		So it could well be a marker for a particular moment during the processional cycle.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Which could be either like 10,500 BC or 35,000 BC.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Right, or plus 25,920 years.
		So each cycle of that, so this is the thing.
		I mean, the Sphinx, I mean, it's been talked about, even like again, you go back to Diodorus Siculus and Strabo and Herodotus, they talked about the Sphinx being vastly older.
		They're hearing things about it being older.
		Gaston Maspero and a lot of the archaeologists, the early explorers for that region, also mentioned it being 12,000 plus thousand years old.
		It being this ancient monument.
		And there's strong evidence to support that in that, I mean, you have statues of Sphinxes that predate Khufra, for example.
		So when he apparently built it, there's already, we see statues and imitations of Sphinxes, also lions.
		Before that time, you have what's called the inventory stele or the stele of Khufu's daughter, which was a statue that Khufu being Khufra's father.
		So Khufu, Great Pyramid, Khufra, Middle Pyramid.
		This is rarely acknowledged, but it tells the story that Khufu was trying to repair the Sphinx and dig it out of the sand.
		He's Khufra's father, so this could be older.
		But also the name, like the oldest name for the Sphinx is Vruti.
		And it's the two lions.
		It's Sekhmet.
		And what's the name of the other lion?
		I can't.
		I have it here.
		What is it?
		I can't remember the name of the other lion god, but it literally means two lions and gate.
		So it's like this lion's gate.
		It's guarding a gate.
		But this is one of the oldest names for it.
		So if it was indeed a lion and it's facing due east, and we know that things like procession of the processional cycles, processional numerology is deeply embedded in many, many cultures all around the world.
		This is one of the other key bits of context that seems to point to a consolidated origin point for knowledge and data of the cosmos and of geodetic data.
		But knowledge of the procession of the equinoxes is one of those, which is the, you know, basically you mark this by what constellation is behind the rising sun on the vernal equinox facing east.
		So as we look east today, it's somewhere between the constellation of Pisces and Aquarius.
		And it's a cycle that denotes or is due to the Earth's wobble.
		So we have at least three motions of the planet.
		We have the rotation of the Earth, so 24-hour cycle.
		We have the orbit of the Earth around the Sun, 365 and a quarter days.
		And then you have the processional wobble.
		There's a couple more actually.
		And that is basically that the Earth as it spins does this, it describes this little, like its axis.
		It describes a circle in space which changes the constellation.
		And it's a cycle that takes around 26,000 years.
		25,920 is the typical description for it.
		And what that means is the backdrop of stars, you know, as we're looking at any time is slowly changing.
		It changes only one degree every 72 years.
		So if you're looking at the horizon, like the width of your thumb over 72 years, basically relative to the sun, the constellations behind the sun shift.
		Today it's Pisces, and we're moving into the age of Aquarius.
		And before Pisces was the age of Aries, and for Aries was the age of Taurus.
		And you go back far enough, you get to Leo, the lion, which is another, I mean, this, the symbology, and certainly the dynastic Egyptians, as well as many others, had very similar constellations and names for all of these constellations that we do.
		So I think there's a good indication that the Sphinx could be essentially a processional marker talking about a specific time, which in our current cycle would have been, I think, yeah, around 10,000 something BC, but you could potentially add a whole cycle onto that to go back another nearly 26,000 years.
		Which is an interesting possibility.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's interesting, but it's also nuts.
		It's nuts comparative to our conventional timeline.
		What is the conventional timeline for the acceptance of astrological signs?
		Constellations.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I mean, there's no doubt about the, I mean, the processional cycle is an observable thing.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But naming them, like Cancer, Leo.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I don't actually know.
		It goes back, it's very common across multiple cultures.
		One of the craziest things is actually depicted on the ceiling of the Temple of Dendera in ancient Egypt, the same constellations that we have.
		Pisces, the fish, Aries, the ram, you know, Leo, the lion.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What do you think is the oldest accepted, like if we put it into perplexity, what do you think is the oldest accepted?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I would suspect it's either the Egyptians or the Sumerians, because that's about as far back as written knowledge goes.
		I mean, it was the Sumerians followed by the Egyptians.
		I don't know if the Sumerians had a zodiacal acknowledgement, but certainly the dynastic Egyptians did.
unidentified		And that seems to have progressed from there down everyone.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And the interesting thing – So here, we have a sponsor.
		Perplexity.
		AI sponsor.
		So clay tablets from Mesopotamia, Sumerian, later Babylonian, and the late second millennium BC give the oldest secure written constellation names, including the figures like the lion, the bull, and the scorpion.
		These early star lists, such as Babylonian, three stars each catalogs, and later the mu L.A.P.I.N tablets.
		What is that?
		You know what that is?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		No.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Systematically record stars and constellations and were compiled roughly between 1200 and 1000 BCE, drawing on even older tradition.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So it's at least 1,000 BCE.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it says here that the icon.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's not the current era.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		The iconography of star animals similar to these constellations appear on prehistoric seals, vases, and gaming boards from Mesopotamia may go back as far as 4,000 BCE.
		I think if you go to like Gobekli Tepe and Martin Swetman's theories that a lot of the animal depictions on there may be showing constellations, I don't believe they're the typical zodiacal constellations.
		But it's, I mean, what's interesting is.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Let's see.
		Are they found in Gobekli Tepe?
		Let's see what Perplexity thinks.
		No clear universally accepted constellation names have been identified at Gobekli Tepe, but some carvings appear to depict animals in positions that may correspond to parts of later constellations such as Scorpius, Sagittarius, or Syginus.
		Syginus?
unidentified		Synas?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Cygnus.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Cygnus.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		According to a minority of researchers, most archaeologists remain cautious.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, a minority being Martin Swetman, probably.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Seeing these are powerful symbolic animal figures like a scorpion, vulture, and other birds of prey and arguing that firm links to a true zodiac or named constellations are speculative.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But interesting.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's remarkable.
		I mean, and more so even just than those markers is one of the, I mean, for me, it's sacred geometry.
		And the processional numerology that's encoded, I mean, this is Hamlet's Mill, what's in the book, Hamlet's Mill, that essentially shows you that a lot of this sacred geometry, which is like a numeral system or these sacred numbers that are repeated through geometry, time, distance, even cosmic cycles as we measure them.
		And then they appear again and again through ancient cultures and in their origin stories and even in their architecture.
		I mean, the Great Pyramid's probably the best example it being the, I mean, I'm sure you've heard that it's like a scale model of the northern hemisphere at a ratio of 43,200 to 1.
		It's absolutely insane.
		And it encodes so much more knowledge when you consider it from that perspective.
		Knowledge that we can't explain through the dynastic Egyptians or by any capabilities that they had.
		It encodes geodetic data in terms of this very specific shape of the Earth, it being an oblate spheroid, like it encodes that information in it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		How?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Well, so 43,200 is an interesting number to start with, just because the number of seconds in a day is 86,400.
		So in 12 hours of the day, the amount of sun, like basically the amount of time on a hemisphere or in half of a day in exactly 12 hours is 43,200.
		It's 432 is one of those numbers that shows up again and again and again and again.
		So the Great Pyramid at a ratio of 43,200 to 1 is essentially a scale model of the northern hemisphere.
		If you take the height of the Great Pyramid and this includes the sockle that it sits on, but you take that height, you multiply it by 43,200, you get the polar radius of the Earth.
		So from the center of the Earth to the North Pole, almost exactly within a couple hundred feet.
		And even more impressive is when you take the perimeter length of the Great Pyramid and you multiply that by 43,200, you get the equatorial circumference of the Earth within about 300 feet, which is super interesting because it's flexible.
		It changes.
		So as we've always known, there's been multiple surveys since the 1800s of the Great Pyramid and once its base was cleared off and we got its perimeter length.
		And we've also had surveys looking at how big is the Earth.
		Aristoteles in like 5,600 AD in Greece, he was the first one to give it a go by measuring sort of the angle of the shadow in two different places over a few years.
		And he got the circumference of the Earth to within about 500 miles.
		That was as close as we got until the 1800s and then the advent of modern satellite surveys in the 1970s and 1980s.
		And the funny thing is, is that the more advanced we got as we step closer and closer and right up to the modern satellite surveys, the closer the number came to what the Great Pyramid represents at this ratio of 43,200.
		Right up to the point where it's like the most modern, I think the surveys done in the 80s are still the ones we use today, looking at the actual circumference of the Earth is within about 300 feet of the measure of the Great Pyramid, which makes, I mean, that's within the margin of error.
		It's within the variability of the margin of the Earth of the circumference of the Earth.
		Because you have like the moon and the sun on one side, it literally, you measure it every day, it's going to change about 200 or 300 feet just because gravitational forces are pushing on the earth.
		So that also means that what interesting is if in two seconds of time, if you were standing on the equator, then the Earth rotates precisely the length of the perimeter of the Great Pyramid.
		So in two seconds, it goes, basically, the Earth turns the same length as the perimeter length of the Great Pyramid.
		What's even crazier, and so you have this measure expressed in distance and in time, given that it's this significant number that measures the amount of seconds in 12 hours.
		It also encodes geodetic data.
		So the Earth isn't a perfect sphere, right?
		We deviate from being a perfect sphere because, and this is, thank Christ, because it's like that rotation, the oblate spheroid nature of the Earth, the what's it called?
		The spin, the shit, the spin motion of the Earth, essentially, like a dryer, for some reason, I can't think of the word.
		It's flattening our tops a little bit, and we bulge a little bit at the center around the equator, right?
		So it's like that spin force is making us bulge a bit.
		So what it means is that if you measure the Earth this way, like north to south around and then east to west, it's going to be slightly longer east to west.
		How slight?
		I think it's something like 70 or 80 miles, no, 40 miles, I think is the difference, something like that.
		Maybe that's the radius difference.
		But radius or diameter might be 30 or 40 miles difference.
		It's just this, it is this slight equatorial bulge.
		And what it means is that, you know, when you draw latitude and longitude lines on the planet, and latitude being north-south, longitude being east-west, if you get down to the equator, now obviously they, you know, the shapes of them change as you go up towards the poles, but the latitude lines are straight.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		I saw this recently.
		I don't know how accurate it is.
		It says it's accurate.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's Earth without water.
		Without water.
		That's nuts.
unidentified		Yeah.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Rocky little ball, innit?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Bro, that's crazy.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, some of those oceans are deep.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		I don't know where that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you think?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		That's cool.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's bananas.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		That almost looks exaggerated to me, that a little bit.
unidentified		Wow.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The most accurate model of Earth's shape accounting not only for its rotation, but also for the distribution of the masses inside the planet, making the surface slightly uneven and deviating from a perfect sphere.
		Unlike a school globe, which depicts Earth as an ideal ball, the geoid resembles a slightly flattened at the poles and bulging at the equator potato, with a height variations up to 100 meters due to the gravitational anomalies.
		This shape arises from the centrifugal.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Centrifugal, that's the word I was looking for.
unidentified		There it is.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Force of the Earth's rotation, which inflates the equator by an additional 21 kilometers compared to the polar diameter.
		There we go.
		Interestingly, the geoid is used in GPS navigation and geodesy.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Geodesy, yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Geodesy.
		To precisely measure elevations above sea levels as oceans follow this uneven surface.
		Imagine if you shrank the Earth to the size of a basketball, the geoid's irregularities would be smaller than the roughness of the orange skin, wow, of an orange skin, yet still impact our daily lives.
		Wow.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so it must be a little exaggerated because I think that that's clearly rougher than an orange, that's clearly thicker than the roughness of an orange skin.
unidentified		Yes.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's an exact, it gives us an example.
		So, yeah, so we're a little bulgy around the middle, a little flatter on top.
		So when you get down to latitude and longitude at the equator, right?
		So at the equator, if you draw that cube one degree of latitude, one degree of longitude, it's not a perfect cube, okay?
		So it's a little bit further east to west than it is north to south.
		So if you cut that down into like 60 seconds of latitude and longitude, it's a smaller little square, but same proportions.
		You have the same ratio.
		And if you actually take the Great Pyramid, so there's the thing to understand about the Great Pyramid is that it sits on a sockle.
		I don't know if I've talked about this before, but so we know because we have casing stones, we have that 51 degrees, 51 minutes angle of these casing stones.
		So we were able to really accurate, and we have a few of those still around the base from where they fell off.
		So from that, we can determine the height, and we also have this perimeter length using the casing stones pretty accurately, this survey.
		And now, those casing stones, it doesn't sit direct on the bedrock.
		The pyramid actually sits on top of a 55-centimeter sockle.
		So it's this little platform that sticks out about this much, and it's 55 centimeters high, and it's like sticks out.
		So you have the casing stones, and you have this little sockle that it sits on.
		So you have these two methods of measuring the pyramid.
		You can measure the perimeter length around the casing stones, or you can measure the perimeter length around the sockle.
		Soccle slightly larger.
		And if you, the funny thing is, if you get down to one quarter of one second of latitude and longitude at the equator, the longitude is exactly within an inch or two, the perimeter length of the sockle, and the latitude, the north-south, is the perimeter length of the pyramid.
		So it's encoding the geodetic shape of the Earth.
		The ratio of latitude to longitude is encoded incredibly accurately in these perimeter lengths on the pyramid.
		And it's just, that's just mind-boggling.
		Well, so this would be the skeptic reductionist's answer to this stuff.
		You say, well, you're just playing with numbers.
		It's like, well, the numbers are none of those things.
		Anyone can check that data for themselves.
		Like the 43,200 to 1 ratio of the pyramid, the fact that that's the number of seconds in 12 hours of the day.
		There's so many.
		I mean, this, by the way, 43, 432 turns up all over the place.
		The Kali Uyghur is said to be 43,200 years old.
		The radius of the sun is 432,000 miles.
		The king's list from the Sumerians is a total of 43,200, oh no, 432,000 years with one king reigning for 43,200 years.
		So this 432 is one of those sacred geometry numbers that keeps turning up again and again.
		But what's always been fascinating to me in the geodetic information encoded in the Great Pyramid is like you have to understand the shape and size of the Earth to get that ratio so accurately embedded in that monument.
		And we weren't able to do that basically until really recently with satellite surveys, but we certainly weren't able to measure longitude even until like the turn of the 18th century, like James Cook's second voyage of discovery.
		We couldn't measure, we couldn't accurately figure out where we were on those on those east-to-west traverses.
		Like accurately reflecting longitude in the pyramid is astonishing.
		It's one of those things that also relates to ancient maps, having like accurate coastlines with longitude on them.
		But what seems clear is that somebody at some point in the past had very accurate knowledge, not only of cosmic cycles, but also of the shape and size of the Earth itself.
		Like in terms of they surveyed it, they understood its shape, they understood the ratio of latitude to longitude on the planet, and it's all encoded in this monument.
		And it's just kind of scratching the surface on what's encoded in their great pyramid.
		But I mean, the numbers are all there.
		You can add these up.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Have you ever had a debate with anybody that thinks that this is all coincidence and that you could take these numbers and just kind of monkey around with them and make any kind of equation you want if you just draw arbitrary distances between certain things?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		No, not because some people do believe that, right?
		Yeah, I mean, so I think there's a difference between when you talk about numbers versus ratios.
		Like it does, once you get to ratios, then it doesn't matter how you measure them.
		Like that's it's like the ratio, it doesn't matter you measure them in mosquito dicks or inches or whatever, right?
		It's all centimeters.
		So ratios are one thing.
		Numbers, there is a lot, I mean, that whole system of measurement, how we measure time, the imperial system of measurement, where the mile comes from, all of that stuff does have these deep roots in sacred geometry and basically cosmic.
		And that's, again, I think all pointing towards a common system or a common set of knowledge that came from.
		But I've not debated somebody about this.
		I don't know that you, I mean, you can't really question the numbers, but there's some incredible, just, I guess, coincidences that are in this whole system that do point towards like, I mean, they get really crazy.
		So here's another one, which I just, this one just pickles my noodle.
		It's so, you know, we know that I've said this before, I think that the sun is, you know, the moon's 400 times smaller than the sun, and it's the sun's 400 times further away.
		So you get this, that's how we get total solar eclipses.
		That's really nice.
		But there's also another sacred number encoded in their ratios relative to their diameters and the distance from Earth that's the same between the moon and the sun.
		And that's 108.
		So if you take the diameter of the moon at whatever it is, 2160 miles, by the way, 2160 is also the length of a great month in the processional cycle.
		That's 112th of 25,920.
		But 2160 miles times 108, that gives you more or less the distance between the moon to the earth.
		So moons, yeah, so it's a moon's diameter times 108 gives you the distance to the earth.
		The sun's diameter, which is 86,400 miles, which is the number of seconds in a 24-hour period, times that by 108, and you get that's the distance of the sun from the earth.
		So it's like that relationship between their diameter and their distance from the earth is exactly the same between the sun and the moon.
		And it's 108.
		So it's the lunar diameter over lunar distance equals solar diameter over solar distance.
		And I mean.
		What a coincidence.
		What a coincidence.
		Yeah, and it's 108.
		And by the way, there are temples and places like Cambodia that have 108 pillars.
		Like 108 is another one of these sacred numbers that have been encoded into the way we measure stuff, the way we count for time.
		So it's a huge, there's a huge sort of rabbit hole of sacred geometry and processional numerology that seems to point to some point in the past, someone having all of this understanding to create these systems and to measure things and to do so accurately to the point where the more accurate we get in our measurements, the closer we get to these ratios and data reflected in these ancient structures.
		It's just, and you can't attribute that to these cultures that were on those sites, like the ancient Egyptians or the Greeks.
		It's like, where did this information come from?
		And how come it's represented in cultures from the Norse mythology through South American native Indian myths to these numbers show up again and again, as was shown by Hamlet's Mill, this book, that basically this tome that put that information together and said, well, all of it seems to point to this, you know, this origin point of someone with this information.
		And it's just, it's one more of these contextual points when you combine it with the human timeline and climate and cataclysm and all the endless other contradictions in the megalithic architecture on these sites and stuff like that that makes this concept that we've been advanced significantly advanced, us or someone has, and they've left all these signs and signals and breadcrumbs for us to try and follow to figure out.
unidentified		Whoa.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Whoa.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the pyramid is cool.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It is just, whoa, it is my favorite subject of all time.
		Yeah.
		The lost civilization subject, I think, is my favorite subject because it ties all of them together.
		You know, the mystery of the human origins.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		All of it.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's just, I think it's, I think it's plausible.
		I think it's probable even that we've risen and have been wiped out.
		I mean, I think I was just saying, I just spent five weeks in Peru again.
		I just came back like 10 days ago.
		And I mean, that place more than anywhere else is both more mysterious and more obvious that there was something else going on a long time ago.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		More obvious.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, more of in the delta between these technological levels.
		Like, so in Egypt, you know, I don't, you never want to underestimate what the dynastic Egyptians were capable of.
		They had this long civilization of 300, or sorry, 3,000 years, and they did some incredible work.
		So, you know, they're really good stonework.
		It gets the lines can get a little blurred.
		I mean, you still see the difference, but in Peru, it's different, particularly in the Sacred Valley, places like Tiwanaku in Bolivia.
		But there you have these very distinct lines, like in terms of technology and the stonework and the layering of the stonework in that place.
		Today, I mean, typically it's mostly all attributed to the Inca, but the Inca were really only around for like maybe 300 years maximum.
		The Inca Empire was barely 100 years before the Spanish wiped them out in 1533.
		And so it's relatively young, right?
		So 1200 AD roughly to 1533.
		And they attribute most everything to the Inca.
		And it's just not, you just look at it and go, this is not remotely possible.
		There's a huge difference.
		You see these three different layers of architecture.
		There's a guy in Peru that has been researching this stuff for 50 plus years, him and his father, Jesus Guimara, who has this classification system for the architecture in Peru.
		So you have, he calls them Hananpacha, Uranpacha, Icunpacha, the three levels.
unidentified		These words have many meanings in Quechua.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		But it starts with like the oldest stuff seems to be this monolithic, carved, really bizarrely carved mountains, like rock, bedrock.
		They're not blocks.
		It seems vastly ancient.
		There's all these channels and massive structures and shapes carved into the living rock of the mountain.
		It's just like the lowest level usually shows the most erosion.
		Then you have the megalithic stuff, like Sacsay Waman.
		You've seen pictures of that, you know, Sacsay Waman.
		And the core of Machu Picchu, Oyante Tamba, these giant, the streets of Cusco, these huge megalithic blocks that are all got these perfect joins between them.
		You can't fit a razor blade in between them.
		They're flowing.
		They're mortarless walls.
		They're incredible.
		It's one of the best, most amazing parts of the Sacred Valley is the proliferation of this sort of megalithic work.
		But then on top of that, you have the Inca work, the Ikunpacha.
		It's literally cobblestones that are put together with mud mortar.
		It's like local rock, and they've stuck it together.
		And so you have this very distinct layers.
		I have pictures of this stuff, Jamie, in the South America directory on there.
		But it's super clear.
		Like there's no blending.
		It's like, boom, okay, here's the oldest layer.
		Here's the next layer.
		Here's the Inca layer.
		And it's always in that order.
		Like it's always like Hananpacha on the bottom, then the megalithic stuff on top, and then the Inca work on top of that because they were repairing stuff.
		So even the Inca never talked about them making sites like Sacsay Waman.
		They have all these other stories for it.
		Like the giants built it is one of the explanations you work.
		Yeah, this is a great example.
		So this is the Intipunka, the Sungate.
		So you see the difference.
		You see that clear distinction in the architecture.
		You have the megalithic stuff and then you have the repair work on top, the cobblestone work.
		And there's just, this is all I, once you see this, you can't really unsee it as you go all over the sacred valley.
		And some of these, some of these, this is small compared to the type of stuff you see in Sacsi Waman, where some of the blocks get up towards 200 tons, 150 plus tons, and all of the same type of stone.
		Yeah, this is Tiwanaku.
		And so, you know, there's this long history of unknown.
		So in Egypt, you have this connection, a cultural connection.
		They have their kings list.
		They talk about Zeptepe.
		They clearly have this connection to whatever builder culture was there.
		They talk about it.
		I mean, it's part of their origin stories.
		But in South America, you have something else happen.
		Like, there's a big gap.
		Like, you don't have the Inca don't have that precursor culture.
		They came from the south.
		They talk of their origin story.
		It comes from Lake Titicaca up into the Sacred Valley, and then they took over.
		There are a couple of precursor cultures to the Inca, but there's this huge unknown.
		It's like we just don't know what happened.
		You know, there are other sites in Peru.
		Graham Hancock's been out there recently.
		I was out there just recently too.
		There are pyramid sites in Peru that are 5,000 years old.
		Places like Corral.
		They're not sophisticated.
		It's incredible work in terms of the amount of stone that's been used, but it's not megalithic or precise, but there are pyramid cultures that stretch back at least 5,000 years.
		But in terms of the real megalithic precision work in South America, we have no clue who did that.
		In fact, there's probably the strangest site.
		One of my favorites is Pumapunku, Tiwanaku.
		You heard of this place in Bolivia?
unidentified		Sure.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Tough to get to.
		It's amazing.
		It's up on the high Altiplano, like 12,500 feet above sea level.
		It's like nothing else on the planet.
		The stonework there is massive.
		It's precise.
		It's playful.
		There are just endless 90-degree turns, perfectly polished surfaces, like saw marks, cut marks.
		Yeah, I have a Tiwanaku directory there, Jamie.
		And it's quite well preserved because it was buried in mud.
		It's slowly been excavated.
		And there is a lot of evidence that suggests this place is at least 10,000 to 12,000 years old, again, using endless, like this sort of andesite work.
		See, this is a left turn arrow for some reason.
		But it's this playful nature.
		The H blocks are famous at this place, but they just have these endless little insets and dirt.
		Like stuff like this.
		Like this is one of my favorite blocks to show people.
		That is a, you're looking down on top, so the ground's down.
		So I'm looking down this thin channel that's been cut into this block, and it has all of these little drill holes in it.
		And these are like tiny little drill holes, and this channel's about this wide, and it's cut into this block.
		You have several blocks with features like this.
		Like it's clearly something's been attached to this.
		Like it's how, how do you cut this in stone?
		And this is, you know, thousands of years old, but it's a remarkable site full of these sort of examples.
		And it's attributed in general to a culture that lived there around 1100 AD.
		You're still there, still digging stuff out of the ground.
		It was destroyed in a cataclysm or just some sort of massive mud flood, I think, was the end of this civilization.
		However, that's me and Graham.
unidentified		And this is at 12,000 feet or 12 and a half, yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What would be the reason for establishing a civilization at 12,000 feet?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It gets strange because there's, so the modern, first, the modern dating for it comes from a handful of carbon dates, right?
		They found some carbon dates and they go, okay, 1100 AD.
		But they've also found carbon dates that go back to 1500 BC and they just dismiss them as being unreliable.
		I literally think these carbon dates could literally be the last person someone lit a campfire there or was buried there.
		There's a guy named Arthur Poznanski, who's a Polish professor that lived, he spent 50 years on this site, died in La Paz, published his works 1945.
		I have a copy of his books, The Cradle of American Man, it's called.
		He spent 50 years investigating this site.
		He dated it at 15,000 BC based on a whole range of other geological data, astro-archaeological dating, which is, it has these alignment properties we can talk about.
		He found the skull of a toxodon there, which Toxodon is an extinct Pleistocene era mammal that went out in the Younger Dryas, 13,000 BC.
		There seems to be depictions of saber-toothed tigers and smilodons in some of the artwork there.
		So you have some, they say they're all pumas, but some of them have small canines, some of them have really big canines.
		I mean, why is there a difference here?
		He dates it culturally in terms of it being the origin point for not only other cultures in South America, but also Central and North America through the symbology, the Chicanas, the Incan cross, there's all these other features.
		So he used a whole raft of scientific techniques to date that site and to support his conclusion that it was vastly ancient.
		And then that's kind of all been thrown aside because they found a few carbon remains that were at the 1100 AD mark.
		Why would you build a civilization there at that altitude?
		You wouldn't.
		You just wouldn't.
		It's too hard.
		It's above the tree line.
		There's no natural trees.
		And it gets wacky because today, Tiwanaku was a port.
		They admit, even the archaeologists, they talk about Pumapunku, it's like a port.
		There was something industrial happening there.
		The stone, if you look at Poznanski's original images with the, there's all sorts of interlocking bits of stone and sluice gates and hydrodynamic features on this place.
		There's a giant steppe pyramid that had this reservoir in the center.
		It's crazy.
		But they tell you it's a port.
		And it was a port on Lake Titicaca, which today is about 10 miles away.
		The shoreline is about 10 miles away.
		H.S. Bellamy in the 1800s discovered a strand line that runs basically through where Tiwanaku was.
		So strand line is like, you know, basically the shoreline of an ancient water body of water.
		And it can be formed through just gentle wave action over a long period of time.
		It can be formed from like a high intensity period of waves, you know, something hammering a shoreline.
		But he measured this.
		He found this shoreline that runs about 400 miles.
		So it's like across the Altiplano from Silistani in the north, way down south towards La Paz.
		But he documented this strand line.
		What's really weird, and at that strand line, Tiwanaku would have been at the shores of Lake Titicaca.
		It would have been a small island or a peninsula.
		The lake level would have been right there.
		And that fits it being a port.
		However, the strand line is today, it's tilted.
		The strand line's tilted.
		So obviously water, when it makes, you know, a body of water, when it makes a strand line, it's flat, like it's, it finds its level.
		But only geological processes, and I assume over a fair amount of time, can give it this tilt of a couple degrees, which is what they've measured.
		There's no doubt there is a strand line, but it's tilted.
		So I question whether in the period that they say Tiwanaku was built 1100 AD, less than a thousand years between then and now, that there's been enough geological upheaval in the Andes to tilt this strand line a couple of degrees.
		I don't think it can happen anything like that fast.
		I think this strand line and the evidence that it was a port shows us that this city was in fact vastly more ancient than that and that it was destroyed by cataclysm, by flooding from the melting of the glaciers in the Andes.
		There's strong evidence there that it's seen several, it may have seen multiple cycles of glaciation.
		And the climate would have been different during this period.
		Like the climate changed to make it this arid, sort of inhospitable place that it is today, like where it's just tough to exist at 12,500 feet above the tree line where hardly anything except like fruit varieties of potato grow.
		They must have had better climate or, I don't know, lower altitude, but a better climate at least.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Lower altitudes possible?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I don't think so.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I mean, how much does that change?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		You're talking millions of years for that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Because Lake Titicaca, I mean, that was sea level.
		Like, it is seawater.
		Like, it's not today.
		It has like unique species in it.
		Like, there's a native seahorse.
		It's the only one.
		It's brackish water.
		So it was originally part of the ocean that was uplifted.
		And it's been uplifted 12,500 feet.
		But this is millions and millions of years.
		And it's today fed by these glaciers.
		So it's slightly, it's brackish.
		It's like it's a combination of salt and freshwater.
		But it has these species that can only have come from the ocean.
		But this is like long geological processes.
		So I think it's more likely that there was just a different sub-climate or like a climate zone in that area that must have supported that life because the place is massive.
		The site where you go is only the barest fraction of what is actually there under the ground.
		They've done scans.
		They've found entire buried step pyramids at this site.
		The farmers in all the fields around it, they ran into these big blocks occasionally and like, god damn it, they ruined the tractor again.
		And it's a big andesite block from Tiwanaku.
unidentified		Whoa.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		So it's, and it's, it's a super mystery.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		And it's.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's also the place where those tridactyl pyramid, those tridactyl mummies are.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		So Nazca, right?
		A lot of that comes from South America.
		That's right.
		And there's.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That gets real weird.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It does.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		When you take all those things into consideration.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Things get real weird.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, there's also this evidence for technology and alignments there.
		I mean, this is one of the things Poznanski based his dating on was this was this structure there called the Kalas Asaya.
		There's a big step pyramid there called the Acapana.
		Then there's this Kalas Asaya, which is big, rectangular mass.
		They call it the Stonehenge of the Americas originally because it was just these giant stones that formed this big rectangular structure.
		Today it's been reaped.
		They've left the big stones there, but they've kind of filled in the gaps and they've built the walls and stuff again.
		And what Poznanski found was that it is an extremely accurate solar observatory, kind of like a, I mean similar to Stonehenge in some ways.
		But if you stood in the center of the west wall and you looked east, so this big rectangle.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Do we have an image of this so I can look at it?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, if you go to Tiwanaka, there's kind of like an overlook.
		If you bring them all up, I can show you.
		Or you can type in Tiwanaka, probably find pictures of it.
		Kalas Asaya.
		K-A-L-A-S-A-Y-S-A, something like that.
		But it's, it's, there's like, it's, imagine a big rectangular, huge rectangular.
		That's in, yeah, there.
		So that's it there.
		So actually, it's like there's an inner structure there, but this is, so see all those standing stones?
		Those are the original stones.
		So it actually goes all the way around and all that far side.
		So it has an internal structure as well.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Interesting.
		So the larger stones in the original.
		Okay.
		And they actually built the smaller wall later.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		That's all modern.
unidentified		Modern as far as the last 50 years.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they reconstructed it.
		If you go back to Poznanski's original excavations from the early 1900s, all you see is the big standing stones.
		It's been quarried.
		Like, this is another one of those places where literally like the core of La Paz is made from stones from Tiwanaku.
		Like it's the whole town that's here.
		There's a massive church that's been built.
		They made mines and sewer systems.
		It was just like the most convenient source of stone.
		And in Tiwanaku in particular, they're very square.
		Like it's really linear, beautiful blocks of anders.
		Perfect building material.
		Why wouldn't you just take it and build cities?
		So they were right up until the 30s.
		They were just wagon loads and wagon loads and wagon loads of stone every day, every day.
		So that place has been used as a quarry for, you have to, similar to a lot of places in Egypt for hundreds, if not thousands of years.
		And but it's so what you're looking at is you've got to use your imagination to look at the older pictures.
		And even then, it's barely a fraction.
		I think of what's actually there under the ground.
		But what's interesting is Poznanski figured out that if you stand in the middle of that, of the west wall, like so looking this way, and if you looked at the corner pillars on the east wall, it showed you the sun on the solstices would rise exactly on the outside corners of these pillars.
		Now, this is, if you, it looks like that to the eye, but if you measure it with precision instruments, you find it's about 18 minutes off now.
		And so when it was aligned, so it's similar to that, the Sphinx, and like when was it lined up with Leo?
		So when was this structure lined up exactly on the solstices?
		And so the motion of the Earth that would affect that is called the change in the obliquity of the ecliptic.
		It's another one of the Milenkovich cycles.
		So you have, we talked about precession of the equinoxes, which is the wobble.
		So then you also have this tilt, like this change in the tilt of the earth.
		So the actual tilt goes back and forth, I think between 22 and 25 degrees, something like that.
		But it's a 41,000-year cycle.
		And it's basically the change in the axis of the Earth relative to the equator of the Sun or the ecliptic plane.
		So this, you know, if you project out the equator of the Sun, where all the planets are orbiting, it's the change in the Earth's tilt relative to that plane, the obliquity of the ecliptic.
		And so on that cycle, it's a 41,000-year cycle.
		Turns out that he dated it using the star charts of the time at around 15,000 BC.
		Now, his work was validated in the early 2000s by the Bolivian, this is a funny story, Bolivian head of archaeology in Bolivia and these astronomers that went there and said, let's check Poznanski's work using the astronomical almanac, more up-to-date information.
		And they said, yes, indeed, he was correct.
		Like, if you assume this was an alignment thing, this would have lined up right on basically 12,000 years ago, 13,000 years ago, 10,000 BC, or plus 41,000 years, I guess, for the cycle.
		And the guy, Gustav, I've forgotten his name.
		Damn it.
		But the guy who was in charge of the Bolivian Department of Archaeology at the time, once he made that announcement, lost his job.
		And I don't think it's ever been talked of since.
		Yes, the official dates for Timunaku haven't changed.
		However, these guys also figured out that if you spun it around and you looked from, it's also aligned to the sun sets on those solstices.
		So if you go on the west wall and sorry, you go on the east wall and look west, it also perfectly aligns with the sun sets.
		You also get the solstices in the center.
		So, you know, solstices being, sorry, equinoxes in the center.
		Solstices being the shortest and longest day of the year where the sun's furthest north and furthest south, and then equinox is in the middle.
		So it's perfectly aligned with that, but just off kilter a little bit because of that motion of the earth, the change in the obliquity of the ecliptic.
		So it's not an accident, put it that way.
		It's not just a coincidence that it's aligned this way.
		It was set up that way to be a solar observatory.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And if you look at it with an open mind, it's an insane deep.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it is.
		I mean, even within this cycle at 10,000 BC, I mean, that's the Younger Dryas period.
		This is, you know, this is, and it's a significant marker for South America because I can tell you the younger drys had a tremendous impact on South America.
		Something like 75% of the megafaunal species in South America went extinct.
		Although you are up in the Andes, they may have been more protected from the full extent.
		Who knows, though, fires and smoke.
		They would have had the, you know, the blackening of the skies and all the rest of it that would have happened during that Younger Dryas extinction event.
		But yeah, something happened.
		I mean, they, again, there's been, I think there's been a cycle of glaciation and deglaciation in the Andes that's affected the lake and a lot of the stuff up there in particular, just because we know that there are structures, get this, there are structures beneath the waters of Lake Titicaca today, made from red sandstone that match kind of the oldest layers at Tiwanaku.
		So they might have been made beneath the water.
		So the lake level must have been lower.
		And then something happened where a lot of water got added.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Temple found on Lake Titicaca, and this is in 2000.
		Stone anchor.
		What is that word?
		Adenamana?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		660-foot-long.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		And animal.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And animal.
		Oh, stone anchor and animal bones were found amongst our artifact scientists Wednesday.
		Oh, there's Wednesday said it's connected too.
		Wednesday said they had found beneath South America's Lake Titicaca in what.
		There's something wrong with this translation because all these words are jammed together.
		Even where it says Titicaca, then science says there's no space.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		25-year-old website.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but it seems weird.
		Like it's like recoded or something, right?
		After 18 days of diving below the clear waters of Titicaca, scientists said Tuesday they have discovered a 660-foot long, 160-foot-wide temple, a terrace for crops, pre-Incan Road, and a 2,600-foot containing wall.
		Holy shit.
		Yeah.
		I strongly support the hypothesis that was found by the, what is that word?
unidentified		Atahalupa?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Something like that.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It's clearly a Peruvian word.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Atalupa 2000 expedition are the ruins of a submerged pre-Columbian temple, said Eduardo Perea, a Bolivian scientist who was among those who explored the site around 90 miles northeast of the Bolivian capital of La Paz.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		So there's stuff underneath the water?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It says it's filmed.
		The film of that?
		Can we see what that looks like?
		Try to find it?
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I just thought this was easier because I couldn't find a good video.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's got to be.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure it exists somewhere, but I have to try to find it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		So it said it's made over 200 dives in the water 65 to 100 feet deep.
		I'd love to know exactly how deep.
		Does it say how deep it was?
		Because, I mean, that's a significant change in the level of the lake.
		So yeah, Lake Titicaca is 12,464 feet above sea level.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That is bananas.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		We went and stayed out on an island on the lake with no electricity.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		The sky at night was absolutely phenomenal.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		If you were a gambler, how old do you think that is?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I would put it at least I'd say at least in that 12 to 15,000 years, if not significantly older.
		I don't know that there were periods of time in that lake where that level was that low.
		What's crazy is that there's been a variance.
		Like there's structures beneath the current lake level, so the water was lower.
		And then we know from the strand line that the water was, God, what is it?
		I think 40 meters almost higher than what it is now when it would have been at the shores of Tiwanaku.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		This is indicating a long time period of change.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and the tilted strand line.
		So if you were talking about Tiwanaka, if I was a gambler, I would put it at tens of thousands of years.
		I don't think, I don't even my, as in getting this is speculation.
		I don't think it fits even within the 10 to 12,000 year cycle.
		I think it's got to be tens, like multiple tens of thousands of years for that to be to be um where it is.
		And in fact, when I was there, literally like two weeks ago, we made some observations that I hadn't made there, but i'd spent a bunch of time at Tiwanaku, um over the years.
		But we figured out that those big pillars of that Calisasaya we thought they were andes, they're granite, the ones on one side, they're actually granite and they're very heavily eroded like, like again, you have that big scoop out of it.
		You can see at the bottom where they were buried um, but there's this huge amount of erosion and I just and granite erodes way more slowly than things like limestone.
		So it's just, I think the erosional um data there needs to be studied because I don't know how long it would take.
		Even in that environment, which gets more rainfall than places like it is, it can rain quite a bit, you get these storms, but I I, I think it takes a long time to erode granite that far and um the stuff that's been exposed and above, you know the, the mud, and when there was, there was clearly some sort of big mud flood that came in that knocked this stuff down.
		Uh, the stuff that was been face down or buried in the mud has been quite well preserved and protected.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But oh, is this the film?
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		There's like one minute of underwater.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		That's incapable.
		Whatever that is, it looks incapable.
		Underwater archaeology, yeah, gold ink and figuring.
		Well, the Inca were definitely there at the lake.
		There's the island Of The Sun, Island Of The Moon.
unidentified		That's incapacitated.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Well, you should see, makes reminds me of, like the.
		You should have seen some of the pottery they make bro, like they was uh, we were making, I was making photoshops of my friends with it there's.
		It's literally like dick and balls and like all this pottery it's.
		They have this whole erotic section of um, the Laco Museum and it's it's.
		It's always good for a little giggle, but so is.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Is it safe to say that less exploration has been done at this site?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yes, for sure.
		It's still being slowly excavated, but yeah, this isn't.
		I mean it's.
		The wheels are grinding slowly.
		They're slowly trying to renovate, they're trying to encourage tourism, but there's not.
		There's so much of that site that needs to be dug up?
		It's not.
		It hasn't had anything like the attention Egypt has.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Is there the same sort of pushback against dating?
		For sure, one guy, but it's the same everywhere.
		Yeah yeah, it's so.
		It's a like a human characteristic of people that are in control of a narrow.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		They don't well, it's tough to explain.
		There's just that they don't want to deal with this possibility of a culture down there.
		That's that old.
		I think it upsets too many other apple carts.
		So to I feel like it's been, it's been, it's it's kind of been.
		Well, we found these carbon dates it this fits kind of the timeline of what the INCA said too, because the Inca talk about emerging from lake Titicaca and going north, being pushed out by the Amara people, and if you think that okay, the INCA arrived in the sacred valley from the south around 1200, between 1100 and 1200 a day, so therefore they might have been at Tiwanaku at 1100 a d.
		So that's, it's kind of fits that timeline, but it doesn't mean anything like the INCA could have been down, that the Tiwanaka could have been there forever right, I think, the INCA sure, that's the timeline for that civilization, but and as we've established everywhere you see, people put a civilization on top of an older.
		Oh, that's yeah, 100.
		The Inca were like very respectful.
		This is the other thing about the architecture in that part of the world.
		The layers are very respect, other than the Spanish.
		They smashed it all up.
		But the Inca were very respectful and trying, they tried to rebuild even.
		Like where they could rebuild megalithic structures, they would.
		Here's a great example.
		And I also think a great example of why it's not possible that the Inca did all of this because it's in such a short period of time.
		Again, their civilization lasted barely a couple hundred years.
		And there's so much of it, of this stonework, and it's just complete night and day difference.
		So in Cusco, there were like 13 high Incas, these kings of the Inca Empire, like the high Inca, the big, big dude.
		And he had his court with his advisors.
		They called him a Panaka.
		And it was a hereditary thing.
		So the son would inherit and he'd make his own panaka, his own people.
		He'd also have his own palace.
		You couldn't live, like the son couldn't live in the house of the father.
		So they would build another spot in Cusco in this city.
		Cusco is a crazy city.
		It's like megalithic, Inca, colonial Spanish, modern, all piled up on each other.
		It's an amazing city.
		But if you actually look at where these courts were, like starting with Monco Capac, the first sort of Hay Inca around 1200 AD, you have the first seven or eight of these Hay Inca, when they would build their structures and their palace, they would rebuild like a megalithic courtyard.
		It'd be these big, massive stones, or they'd inhabit and they'd repair it.
		They'd have these huge, big megalithic courtyards.
		But as soon as they switched from, I think the 8th to the 9th or the 7th to the 8th, it's all small cobblestones.
		It's just all of their courtyards, like their palaces, were made from small local stones stuck together with mud mortar.
		It's like, well, hang on.
		Are you saying that if you say that the Inca built all of this stone, then all of a sudden you're saying, well, between one generation and the next, you lost all of this capability to do the fancy stuff, the big stuff, which doesn't make any sense.
		It's much more likely what they did was they found an abandoned, ruined megalithic city.
		They rebuilt it and they ran out of megalithic courtyards to renovate for their next king.
		That's what happened.
		So the first bunch of these Hayinkas have these megalithic courtyards and then the next, right up to the end, they're made from small local cobblestones.
		It's like, were they just not special enough for the big special stonework?
		You can't imagine within such a small couple centuries that they lose all that capability.
		It's just not, none of it makes sense.
		The only thing that makes sense when you look at that architecture down there is, yeah, they were rebuilding older stonework.
		They were repairing it.
		They were putting their stuff back on top of it.
		I mean, there's so many amazing – Iante Tambo is one of my favourite sites down there just because it's so obvious.
		There's these giant 80, 90 ton granite blocks that make up this structure and it's fallen apart.
		And then they've tried to move these things and in between them, they've just stacked all these little local crappy little stones in between them.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Do you have any images of that?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I have the Oyente Tambo directory, tons of pictures.
		And in fact, that's a whole other interesting story because that place is another example of what you see a lot of in Egypt, which is this phenomenon of just something happened and they went tools down.
		We're not finished.
		We're in the process of doing stuff and just drop work, leave.
		Whatever happens, cataclysm, social club, something happened.
		Because we know a lot about Oyente Tambo.
		It's at the top of a mountain in the sacred valley.
		Yeah, so this is a great example of the rocks on top of this stuff.
unidentified		Yeah.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		But there's a great little drone video, actually.
		One of the videos in there is a drone shot from the top of this.
		It's at the top of this steep mountain.
		They built this structure.
		No, go back one.
		No, that's at the quarry.
		So I'm standing on one of the stones.
		So yeah, that's it there.
		And at the top of this are these giant 80-ton granite blocks that make up this central, they call it a sun temple.
		And we know where those come from.
		It's like if you imagine this giant mountain, there's a big old valley to the left of it, and then another giant mountain.
		And at the top of that other giant mountain is the quarry for this granite.
		It's about five, six miles as the crow flies, but it's probably like 10 or 12 to walk it.
		And I've walked it, we've climbed up to that quarry.
		And all the way along this path, they have what are called these tired stones, which are giant blocks of granite that they just dropped.
		They just left them there.
unidentified		Tired stones.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		They called the tired stones.
		Yeah.
		And in fact, there's a road.
		If you see in the very bottom left here, there's a road that they built.
		And if you look at some of these other images, I'm standing on some of these rocks.
		This one, this is one of the examples.
		They had to build the road around it, the modern road around it.
		And this block, when you pace it out and measure it, it's probably not less than 90 tons of granite.
		And I mean, we couldn't, I mean, shit, the equipment to try and move this on this would destroy this road to try and lift this.
		But there's dozens, there's like a dozen or more of these things all the way up to the quarry at Ollante Tambo.
		But it's just again, it's very obvious that the Inca rebuilt this.
		But something happened here where they went tools.
		Yeah, these are the big 80-ton blocks in the center of it.
		And this is one of the examples I love to show people.
		It's like, okay, you're telling me the same people did all of this stonework stuff in the middle, and like this little filler work in here.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		If we weren't attached to a timeline, it would be way more likely that what you're saying is correct, especially when you're looking at it like this.
		Look at the massive stones and the way they're cut and then what's above them.
unidentified		Yeah.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Wild stuff, man.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It really is.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What happened?
		And the evidence of the mud.
		That's the other thing.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		For sure, yeah, at Tiwanaki, yes, there was a huge – and something happening, like a cataclysm happening.
		Look at these blocks.
		These big blocks are scattered around.
		Something knocked this structure over.
		And these are huge blocks of stone.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What had to happen to cause that?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		That's a good example of the Hananpacha, the carved bedrock.
		You see a lot of this crazy stuff.
		In fact, there's also tool marks here.
		Like in one of the big Hunan Pacha, if you look, there's like a cross, there's like a grid of cuts in one of these pictures here, Jamie.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That one's nuts because go back, look at that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That one's nuts because it was removed.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		So people often say, well, this Hunan Pacha is a quarry.
		I'm like, really?
		That's not a quarry.
		I usually, I like this.
		There's many examples like this where this isn't a quarry.
		How do you make the back?
		If you're trying to take a block of stone out, how are you making a back cut?
		You can't.
		It's like a box.
		You have to cut it out.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Right.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Deliberately shaped.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And that block is not.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		No.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I think it was.
		I think we think we were talking a lot about this.
		Most likely it was meant to house something.
		Either other stone or something else was going on here.
		This is stuff that's since been removed.
		And in fact, in one of these pictures, there's like a semicircle with all these cut grid lines in them.
		Yeah, these are more lazy tired stones out in the fields.
		You go marching around in these cornfields and you find them all over the place down here.
		It's great.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's so strange.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It's a very, this is the thing.
		Here we go.
		So if you zoom in on that, so this is up the hill.
		And these are cut marks.
		There's like a grid pattern that's been cut into the stone.
		I don't know how with what, but you actually, you can't see this from the ground.
		And we were super lucky and that there was a huge festival going on in the town, and all the guards were at the festival.
		So they'd never let you get up here otherwise.
		We climbed up this halfway up in this mountain to get a picture of those cut lines, which is, again, not attributable to the very basic tools that the Inca had, right?
		Barely in the Bronze Age.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		This is nuts.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so this is that drone footage.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Also, because the guards weren't there, they would have gone nuts if they'd caught us droning.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They don't like you droning?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		No, no, can't do this.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Why so many restrictions?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I mean, wouldn't this all this, especially from someone like you, wouldn't all this encourage tourism?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I think you'd think so, but it's not the case.
		In fact, they're getting worse, unfortunately, in parts of Peru, just in terms of the ropes and the restricted areas you can't go to.
		Machu Picchu, unfortunately, you can't get to the famous hitching post of the sun or the central megalithic area.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Just looking at this drone footage, there's such a clear difference between the original stone that's below and then the stuff that the more modern people built above it.
		There's such a difference in the way the stone is constructed.
		Wild stuff, man.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It's night and day.
		So this is what I like about South.
		Once you see it in South America, it's very clear because you just, you know, again, in Egypt, you just had a longer ancient civilization that were able to develop higher capabilities than, say, the Inca did.
		In fact, the quarry for this stone is way on that other mountain across the valley at the top.
		You can't quite see it, but it's, you know, they hauled these big blocks over very difficult terrain at height.
		This is still 10,000 feet.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And what is the largest of these stones?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It'd be 100 tons at least.
		I mean, it's Saksaywaman, you're closer to 200 tons.
		I think at Tiwanaku, the biggest sandstone block, I might be rising, something like almost 300, 400, something like that, 300 maybe.
		And the big red sandstone block.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Are those cross marks as the etchings of the stone?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Is that the only evidence of tool marks?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		No, we've seen others, particularly in Tiwanaku.
		I mean, this is actually up at the quarry, so this is up that other mountain we hiked up.
		And I can't imagine trying to carry a ton of rocks up here.
		This was hard enough.
		But yeah, so in Tiwanaku, you certainly see a lot more evidence for tool marks.
		In South America, you have tubular drills.
		You have all sorts of kind of crazy what look like tool marks and functional aspects of stone in particularly places like the Coricantia, which is the big central structure in Cusco.
		It was this, today it's a Catholic church, but it's megalithic and the inside walls have all, I mean, some of the blocks have been put out and are on display and there's a lot of the inside structures that are still there.
		Yeah, there are similar sort of tube drills that have been cut.
		There is a lot of similarities to some of the tools that you see in megalithic Egypt.
		So I think it's an offshoot.
		I mean, if I was to bet, I would say it's either the same or an offshoot of the same civilization that did the megalithic stuff in the other parts of the world, for sure.
		Like it's just the megalithic work itself.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's just like there's skyscrapers in Tokyo.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Boom.
		That's it.
		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It's like, you know, the reductionists and the skeptics will say, well, it's solving this, you know, it's like trying a guy that you want to kill an animal, you make a flint arrowhead or whatever, right?
		And I can understand that process where you are solving a problem and getting at it the same way.
		However, when it comes to walls, like stone walls, I'm very skeptical that two completely separate cultures found the most difficult, the most complex, the hardest way to make a stone wall and chose that.
		Because that's what megalithic walls are.
		Like these giant blocks that are perfectly shaped together.
		This is the thing, man.
		In Cusco and in these streets, when you look at some of them have been shaken apart from earthquakes.
		So you can see they're complex, like they're curved.
		Not only does the line, it's not straight, so the lines curve where they join, the face angles change.
		So it changes this way, but also the face angle changes and they perfectly match.
		It's mind-boggling to understand how they might have actually put those stones together.
		This is why it does lead people to the geopolymer ideas or stone softening.
		My buddy Kyle, Brothers of the Serpent podcast, who travels with us, he has a great idea that it might have been a resonance thing where you're actually resonating and grinding stones together slowly.
		So once, you know, you basically they'll match eventually if you're just like grinding.
		There are jewelers' tools like that do similar things.
		You can cut through, you know, they do it on real small stones, but you can cut through granite with a star shape or whatever with these jewelers' tools that get to the right resonant frequency and they just sort of grind through like an ultrasonic drill or something that cuts and just vibrates its way through.
		If you turn it off while it's in there, it's like Excalibur, right?
		It's stuck in the stone real tight.
		You have to have this, but obviously you're talking some advanced technological capability to be able to vibrate a 50-ton stone to make it grind into its neighbor.
		But it's about the most plausible thing I've heard because I can't imagine that this was done by, oh, we lift it up, we measure it, we mark the high spots, we rub it down, we take, you know, we put it back up, and it's saying this for stones that are 150 tons is just not, it's not happening like that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, let's pull up some images of what you're talking about, these very bizarre shapes that they're perfectly matched to fit into each other like a jigsaw puzzle.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I think in the South America directory there, Jamie, there'll be some walls, some of the walls in the streets across the street.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The speculation is that they did it in these shapes to protect against earthquakes.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		One of them, that's the Coricancha.
		Keep going.
		There's the wavy lines.
		Yeah, this stuff, right?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, this stuff.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		This is like the Inca Roka wall.
		And there's probably some pictures of the broken sections where you can see these inside joins.
		That's Sacsay Huaman.
		So it's the same thing, just a much bigger scale.
unidentified		Weird.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		That's some weird, bizarre stuff.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Weird stuff.
		Go back to the curvy.
		What's that?
		The curvy ones back the way you wanted to.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that one.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, this one.
		This green one.
		That one.
		That's nuts, man.
		What are the nubs?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		No one knows, right?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		We talked about the nubs endlessly.
		Yeah, people, all sorts of speculation.
		Like, people have geopolymer explanations for them.
		People have, you know, a lot of people try to say they're lifting bosses, and that's not how they would flip over.
		They're not in the right place.
		One thing's for certain, I think, with the nubs that is an observation a friend of ours, Chuck, a geologist, made, which is that if you look at how stone is quarried, right?
		So one of the common methods still used to some extent today, but certainly is attributed to cultures like this and the Egyptians, is what they call the wedge and feather quarrying, right?
		You cut these little wedges out and then you hammer in either wood and wet it and you're trying to split stone, basically.
		And they still do it today.
		One thing you'll never be left with in a splitting or a wedge and feather approach is a nub.
		Like you can imagine, you can't imagine these stone faces splitting and leaving these bloody nubs that are on all of these walls.
		So they're formed.
		They're formed, either deliberately formed or they're a result of some other process, we don't know.
		But they're not the result of this sort of primitive quarrying method.
		I don't know where they are, but they're on everything.
		And that's another thing.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's another that they leave them there as well.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		They're in Egypt too.
		Like if you compare that wall to like the third pyramid, the Menkara pyramid, it's exactly the same.
		I mean, it looks exactly the same.
		The pillowy appearance on the not like unfinished.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Let's find an image of that.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Menkara pyramid.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the granite.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's just, it's so weird because they're not in a uniform position either.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Nope.
		And you know, there's, you find examples.
		There's been surface wear on a lot of this stone.
		There's plenty of examples where it was very finely like reflective and polished originally.
		So there's been spalling on the surface.
		It feels rough today, but there are sections.
		Yeah, so this is this is Menkara pyramid.
		Looks the same.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Same kind of thing.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, nubs.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But a little larger.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		In some places.
		Those are big ones, but there's other ones that are smaller.
		Very much like that.
unidentified		Yeah, that Facebook picture there, I guess, is a good nub picture.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		But even in Menkara, there's some evidence that they were flattening some surfaces of the pyramid.
		Whether or not they intended to flatten the whole thing, we don't know.
		Funnily enough, they have actually found that there's probably another hidden entrance to this behind that blank flattened wall there on the Turkey Today airfield anomalies under Menkara Pyramid.
		Yeah.
		So this is on the well that the eastern side, I guess, of the pyramid.
		Yeah, the eastern side where the pyramid temple is.
		The entrance is in the north, but there's a flattened part of this wall on the eastern side, and they've been hitting that with like a ground, like a radar thing, and they found that there are some anomalies behind there, so there might well be an entrance behind this wall.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that looks a little odd.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Like that wall looks a little different than the surrounding stone.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Well, for sure.
		Then there's some evidence that they had a patch like that.
		One of the hypotheses, again, I got to credit Colin Russ from Brothers construction guy.
		So they look at this stuff and they have a great theory about this because a lot of the decasing stones are missing on the back, but we found blocks that were smooth like that with the angle for the other side.
		So what I think there were probably four patches like that.
		Now, what you could be, one possible explanation for this is like, well, you very carefully grind and finish a section on each side because that sets your angle.
		Once you set your angle, you can use that patch as a reference point to then basically try to finish the whole rest of the pyramid at that exact angle.
		So you've got to start somewhere.
		You very carefully set your angle correctly on that patch, and then you can use that as a reference to then smooth out the rest of the surface.
		Which you say, smooth out.
		In places, it's this much granite you've got to remove.
		Like a foot of granite's got to come off these stones to get down to that level.
		They're so pillowy.
		Pillowy, it's granite.
		I mean, I just, it boggles the mind.
		It's like they were using that scooping tool or whatever to do it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Are there competing theories as to what the nubs are for, other than like using it to lift the stone somehow?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		You know, some people suggest some of them may have been like little, you know, the really, there are different types of nubs.
		The subtle ones, not all workers lifting nubs.
		Some people say in the geopolymer world where they say, well, stones were formed or cast, they'll say, well, these are like heat expansion points.
		I've heard good theories from certain people that suggest it had something to do with the mass of the stone, like a resonant free, like as you change the mass of a stone, whatever resonant frequency it has might alter.
		Because you also have scoops.
		You have nubs and you have scoops.
		So you seem to have this reduction of mass and then there's more mass in another place.
		So maybe it had something to do with it.
		These are different theories I've heard.
		I don't have a good explanation for them.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's so weird how it never comes up again in human history.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we don't make stuff with nubs.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's weird.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It is really weird.
		Well, it's a commonality.
		It's one of those other indicators.
		It's like, hey, this is the same.
		How come this is the same?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Isn't it in Japan as well?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there's places in Japan.
		I mean, that's a place I want to – I've been there.
		I've just not explored all those sites.
		Yes, there's some really megalithic stonework in Japan that actually matches a lot of the stuff in Peru.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		See if you can find some of that, Jamie, please.
		Yeah.
		What's that, bro?
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		I'm looking on a different ones.
unidentified		Oh, wow.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Where's that?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		That looks like Turkey.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Turkey.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Turkey's another one.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Those are more consistent nubs, I would say.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Fairly, right?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		They're like a bit more...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		A little more.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		A bit more deliberate.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		There's also a lip on that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Still weird.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It is.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's like, what are you doing?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Are you copying other people?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		That's a possibility for sure, because we're very good at that, too.
		You do see a lot of imitation.
		Right.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Who taught you to do it?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, There's a few people really obsessed with the stone nubs, and I can see why.
		Like, it is a real mystery.
		See, those ones, that's an Oyente Tambo.
		Those are bedrock nubs, too.
		Those aren't even in blocks.
		That's in bedrock.
		And those are a bit more deliberate, I would say.
		Like, they're more like maybe they're shadow and markers for like some sort of calendar.
		This is part of the Coricantia.
		They're big square ones.
		I don't know what that's for.
		They're different again.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What is your take on that sage wall in Montana?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I haven't been there and seen it.
		I've been wanting to.
		It's weird.
		I've heard differing opinions on that.
		Like, it's possibly – I'd like to see it for myself, to be honest.
		I've seen some footage of it.
		China.
		That looks like Yangshan.
		Yeah, that's Yangshan Quarry.
		And that's giant too, by the way.
		The Yangshan quarry is thousands of tons.
		If they'd ever cut that block off, it's something like, I don't know, some astronomical.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, I watched a piece on this YouTube thing.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you see it there.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It's monstrous.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What is the timeline of this stuff?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I believe.
		I don't off the top of my head.
		Maybe, Jamie, you can find out.
		Ask your AI.
		Ming Dynasty, right?
		Yeah, they say the story on that is like some ruler said, like, carve me a dragon.
		They're like, sure, boss.
		And they started trying to get this block out.
		And then eventually some foreman went, yeah, maybe we can't deal with this stone anymore.
		And they left it.
		Doesn't seem real plausible to me.
		That's the size of the Yangshan quarry block, right?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, thousands of tons of that.
		And what they were doing there, I do not know.
		And I do not know when they did it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's the weird thing.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		There's so many sites.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		Those nubs would be huge.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		They're huge.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Huge nubs.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they're different.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But it's like, what do they represent?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Well, so another option, I mean, something else I've heard is that in some places they could have been mounting points for something that was grabbing them or hanging onto them, some tool to finish the wall.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		That was another theory.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Or a structure around them.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, a structure from.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Base.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And now the Japan ones, Jamie, did you find anything?
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		I was just looking around.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		That's different.
unidentified		Did you go Japan megaliths, maybe?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I mean, India, the Barabar Caves is another one of these mysteries that fits this box.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Do you ever heard of the Barabar Caves in India?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		No.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my Lord.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		That's a whole other.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		These are in Japan.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		Which one do you remember?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		This is Japan.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, this one in particular, the...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Whoa.
		Click on that one that you just had your cursor on.
		That's nuts.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I think that's AI.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Is it?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		That thing looks AI.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The one-powered one.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		The one on the left, just next to it, the medium one, that's definitely – and below it actually is a better picture, the Asuka megaliths.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		So this matches a lot of the stuff in Peru to me.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		And even the Imperial Palace, the cornerstones and corner blocks of the Imperial Palace there, the wall, is very megalithic.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Whoa.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		And in fact, it's funny.
		They've actually been digging up the foundations.
		My wife was there recently, and they've gone underground and they've found original foundations and big walls, and they've just opened some of that up to the public.
		Yeah.
		Some of this is very, I mean, this is totally Peru, Han and Pacho, if this is legit.
		Wow.
		It matches, right?
		It's the same.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the same kind of stuff.
unidentified		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And that's what's weird.
		It's like, is this a traveling civilization?
		Is civilization uniform all around the world at a certain point in time?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I think it was global.
unidentified		Yeah.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I think it was global.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		We're looking at the remnants of it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Either, look at that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Offshoots of it, too.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Looks like that thing in L.A. Potentially just, Jamie?
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		It looks like that giant boulder in L.A. at the museum.
		You know, it's like sitting over the tunnel?
		At LACMA?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		No?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I don't remember it.
unidentified		I've tried to block LACMA out.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Look.
		Oh, wow.
		Kind of.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		What is this?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Like a LA sculpture.
		Museum of Modern Art.
		It's blich.
		You go there, it's like this.
		This is a plexiglass box.
		It's amazing.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, with a banana peel in it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That kind of shit.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm not a fan of modern art in India.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's for dorks.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		It looks similar.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, kind of.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		You're right.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But not as cool.
		Yeah, that one's cooler and obviously way fucking older.
		It's just so weird how these megalithic structures are so consistent.
		Whoa, look at that one.
		That's nuts.
		Where is that?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		There's something like, looks like Cambodia, potentially Thailand.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, that was the other thing that we pulled up the other day, the temple in India.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The one that's cut entirely out of the mountain.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It starts with a K.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Yeah.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		That's one.
		Yeah, there's a lot in India too.
		It's another place.
		But it's made from granite.
		It is cut out of granite.
		If you look up Barabar Caves, that's also in India.
		These are my friend Patrice Poyard, who runs a filmmaking company in France, has done an amazing documentary on Barabar.
		And they've scanned them.
		And these are caves cut into big granite outcroppings that are just massive, perfect on the inside.
		It's mirror-finished granite within like a thousandth of an inch flatness on the insides.
		And they have these crazy shapes.
		Some of them have these circles, but then they have a whole other room in the back that's circular.
		And that's an unfinished one.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Look on that doorway, please, Jeremy.
unidentified		Yeah, right there.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Like, that's nuts, man.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		That's a lot of that.
		The decoration there is added.
		That's probably later.
		Again, it's the writing came later.
		The original doorway is probably that one.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So the elephants over the top.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's later.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, for sure.
		There's an attribution of these is to, they were supposedly owned by a particular king who gave them to like a religious cult to get out of the rain.
		But it's, it doesn't say anything about him making them.
		They just.
unidentified		Oh, wow.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		If you go to the insides, is what's impressive in here.
		It's the finishing of the granite.
		They're mirror finished.
		And it turns out with the scans, what they found is they're also like almost perfectly symmetrical.
		Like they're not straight.
		They tilt in at like a degree and a half exactly on both sides.
		It's some of the most precise work in granite in single piece.
		Again, it's one of those things where you can't make a single mistake.
		And I mean, this is an imitation.
		Like this is a later attempt to replicate it.
		Yeah, look at that cow paddy hammer, whatever the one, the two in the middle there, yeah.
		So this is, and you literally, it's reflects that, I mean, the acoustics in there are incredible, but this is granite and it's been polished to this mirror finish.
		And then it's also been measured for flatness and geometry, and it's insanely accurate.
		There's been a whole series of documentaries done.
		You can see the mirror finish in it.
unidentified		Wow.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		And nobody knows.
		There's nothing else quite like this anywhere.
		It's like giant stone boxes.
		Look at the size of that one.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Carved into a mountain.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Carved into a granite outcrop in a mountain, exactly.
		Yeah.
		There's seven or eight of them.
		They're all in the same area.
		Really hard to get to.
		It's like you've got to rough it and camp and stuff to get out there.
		But it's on my list.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Like, what's the conventional explanation of how they did this?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I mean, there are literally other examples of people hammering on them with trying to make replicas with the tools of the time.
		And then it just jumps to this.
		And it's just, there's no explanation for it other than that, well, they did it in order to let this religious sect out of the rain.
		Because it's literally some of the really poorly inscribed, you know, it's like the Egyptian stuff.
		It's like somebody hammered this text Sanskrit or whatever it is, and it says, oh, you know, this king gave this to these guys to get out of the monsoon.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's the ancient version of Kilroy was here.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, exactly.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Kilroy was here.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Kilroy built this.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Yeah.
		Yep.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Wild.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Little Timmy on the skyscraper.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I've never seen that before.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's that's completely insane.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Patrice, I actually have his full documentary on my channel if people want it.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		Can I go with the giant statue outside?
		It's the Oya Quarry in Japan.
		In Japan?
unidentified		Whoa.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		Is it an abandoned quarry?
unidentified		Whoa.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Oh, this is like, we were in a quarry like this in Turkey.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It was absolutely incredible.
unidentified		Whoa.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Look at the, in relationship to the size of the people that we're walking around.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Is this a salt quarry or is it limestone?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I can't tell.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		I can look it up.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		A lot of them are salt caverns, but we were inside.
		So you have big quarries like this, underground quarries in China.
		We were in Turkey and I have these amazing footage from this massive underground quarry, these caves that were carved in Turkey when we were there.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Look at this title.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Scientists discover this structure in Japan they claim humans could never have built.
unidentified		Medium.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		How's that?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		How could humans have never built a quarry?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Just get clicks.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you're just getting clicks, you sons of bitches.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		That's the game.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Someone did it.
		No one's saying it's not humans.
		Just saying something was going on back then where they were way more advanced than we want to give them credit for.
		And when you take into account the younger dryest impact theory and the natural catastrophes that undoubtedly have befallen many a civilization in the past, it all kind of makes sense.
		It's weird how many people resist it.
		That's the weird part.
		It's like they want to cling so tightly to their preconceived notions of the history of the human race.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It's a weird thing, isn't it?
		Like the history of civilization is one of those things that hasn't changed a whole lot in about 100 years.
		Like the idea that civilization started with the Sumerians and the Mesopotamians 6,000 years ago and now we're here.
		That idea has been around for a long time and it's just everything else around it has shifted such that I mean my, I hope, I really do hope that it's just that there's that the context, that the next generation of academics can take some of this context into account.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I think they will.
		I think a lot of them are growing up listening to stuff like your show.
		I think I think that's going to help, because there's a lot of people that are getting into archaeology now, a lot of young people that are a little bit more open-minded, and then they also encounter some of these very arrogant professors and people that have these ridiculous ideas and think that they should be the absolute gatekeeper of information, which is so crazy, because universities are a fairly new concept.
		The idea that these people that are running these universities, they should be in charge of something this is a new thing.
		They should be in charge.
		They're the only ones that could figure it out.
		They have the paper that's written, their name is written, it's framed on the wall.
		You shut the fuck up.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		They got the letters that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That is literally insane, because you're dealing with something that it is not possible for everyone to know and you're not as into it as they are.
		The thing is about, like they are not as into these ideas as you are.
		You know what i'm saying.
		Like you are chasing this shit down.
		There's not a lot.
		You are, and so is Jimmy Corsetti, and so is Graham Hancock, and so are many, many other people, and Randall Carlson Carlson and John Anthony West, rest in peace, when he was alive.
		He was awesome.
		Those people chasing down these ideas are way more into it than the people that are gatekeeping the information.
		And they don't want to accept anything other than what they've been teaching and what they've been writing about.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's you're right.
		There's a lot of, I mean, it's amazing that the medium has shifted to give people a voice, I guess, that are into it.
		And my friend George Howard has a great way of explaining this in terms of a potential talent pool if you consider like, okay, so current academics, at least the ones that are the old guard now, have kind of been selected from the people that chose to go to university, that got into universities.
		And you have this pool.
		But now with the kind of the internet, and it's like you're exposing these ideas to such a wider variety of people that you can then, there's going to be people out there that think about these things a certain way.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Assess polymaths.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Assess polymaths that are going to be able to come forward and give those ideas.
		And, you know, it's, I think, you know, the vast majority of significant breakthroughs in pretty much any scientific field have usually come from somewhere that's not within the box thinking.
		It's usually anti-established or it's outside the box thinking.
		Not always, but a lot of those ideas came from like, this has come complete from left field, like germ theory, all that sort of stuff.
		It's like, what are you, you're crazy.
		You've got this dumb idea and then turns out, ah, you know, 30, 40 years later, it's like, that was the right idea.
		And we go from there.
		I mean, I'm hopeful as well that, yeah, the next generation of academics will be able to embrace a lot of these, the context for some of these ideas, and then try to explore them because I think ultimately that's what's needed is some take some of these ideas seriously and bend some of our resources to try and explore them on the ground and in full because there's only,
		you know, ultimately it's the people that have the control and are able to do the real on-the-ground research are the ones that will be able to confirm or change it.
		But it takes real science in a lot of cases.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And also, we're currently obsessed with our impact on the environment, which is not a bad thing.
		It's a good thing to be conscious and aware of our pollution and our emissions and all that good stuff.
		But if we were absolutely certain that civilization has been utterly destroyed by something that is outside of our capacity to control, probably a good idea to know that that's happened.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yes, 100%.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And to deny the possibility of even exploring that concept because people are going to get their feelings hurt because they're so bitchy to each other.
		That's the craziest thing you find out about these academics.
		They are so bitchy to each other.
		When anybody has any sort of an idea that's heterodox, any sort of an idea that's outside of the narrative that they've been teaching forever, they attack each other's reputation.
		They're a little sociopaths.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It is vicious.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's their version of the fight.
unidentified		I guess it's the mean letters and the, yeah, it's, you know what I mean?
unidentified		That's weird.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It is kind of weird.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But they're also in today's day and age of these shows where, like your show and all these other ones that we mentioned, there's a much more attractive approach to these ideas, you know, where people are not like bitchy authoritarians, but they're rather people that are absolutely fascinated by something that is undeniable.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The size of these stones, the similarity to them all over the world, all these different mysteries, the fact that many of them are covered in mud, the fact that enormous stones look they've been knocked off by some immense force.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Stuff that was left, just left there in the middle of construction.
		Nobody ever picked it up.
		Nobody ever finished it.
		Like what happened?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and it's really only not that long since we've had the ability to apply some of these disciplines to these problems, like engineering.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It's since the Industrial Revolution that we've even had enough background knowledge to kind of understand these problems because we have to solve them ourselves.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Or think about how Christopher Dunn approaches the idea of the Great Pyramid itself.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		No one would have ever been able to do that 200 years ago.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		That's what I'm saying.
		Yeah.
		100%.
		It's these other disciplines that have a whole different take on it.
		And it's, again, not a criticism of archaeologists to say they're not engineers.
		They're not engineers.
		It's just, yeah, it's a fact.
		It's like I'm not a dentist.
		I don't know much about.
		You know what I mean?
		I can't solve those problems.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		No one can solve all problems.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but hey, a dentist might have some input on some of these.
		You know what I mean?
		Like, you can, I think a lot of these problems are multidisciplinary, is what I'm saying.
		Like, there's a lot of different approaches and angles to them that lead to some pretty interesting places.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's funny to say that because my dentist is obsessed with UFOs.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Super smart guy, obsessed with UFOs.
		Trying to talk to you.
		Every time he's doing my, what do you think?
		What do you think that is?
unidentified		I'm like, wah, wah, wah, wa-ha.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's fun.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's fun to talk to him.
unidentified		I'll bet.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Yeah.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		What else are you going to think about while you're feeling on something?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But it is a subject that is so important for us.
		I mean, I'm watching the Ken Burns documentary right now in the Revolutionary War.
		And it's really great.
		Awesome.
		Amazing.
		Fascinating to look back at this very recent history, relatively speaking, to terms of the timeline of the Earth.
		And then just realize, like, that ain't shit.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And that's one of the reasons that drives me too is why it's, I think that's a big factor in why this is important.
		It's altruistic, but I do believe that having if we could change that pillar of humanity from like, well, we were Stone Age and now we're a space age to the cyclical nature of we've been here, we've not been knocked down.
		Be aware of the dangers, like solve the longer-term problem.
		I do genuinely think like a whole generation that's exposed to that, that has that inbuilt as they're like, hey, background knowledge of what it means to be a human, then maybe we would solve those problems.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, maybe that's a constant test every 12,000 plus years.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It seems like it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it does seem like it.
		And it seems like no one's really solved it yet.
		You know, and we probably get a little smarter every time we do it.
		But it takes forever and it probably sucks for a long time.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Well, it seems like it's not every 12,000 years or so is like there's definitely been events that are orders of magnitude greater than anything we've experienced in our the last several millennia.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		You know, like a thousand Katrinas or whatever at a time kind of thing.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And there's evidence of like things like the Tunguska event, where like something a little bit more than we've experienced before happens, but nothing compared to what has experienced we've experienced or the Earth has experienced in the past.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		No, for sure.
		We've not experienced, we've, yeah, we've had, we've had nothing, but it does, if you go back the last couple hundred thousand years, it has this periodicity, it seems like, that does, for some reason, align with some of those, those 12,000 years and 26,000 years kind of cycles.
		It's weird how that happens.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Including the depictions of Atlantis and the fall of Atlantis.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, I mean, that's all that exactly lines on with the time, lines up with the timelines.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It does.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Dude, your show is fucking awesome.
		I love it.
		I look forward to it every time you put a new episode out.
		I really love it.
		And I love every time you come in here and let's make this a regular thing, man.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I'd love that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's my favorite show.
		I fucking love this subject so much.
		It's so engaging.
		It's so exciting.
		You know, for whatever reason, there's just part of the human fascination with the past that gets ignited in me.
		And it's so, I think the audience feels the same way.
		It's like, it's so intriguing.
		And I think you're right.
		And I think Jimmy Corsetti's right and Graham Hancock's right.
		I think all these people are right.
		I think there's more to this story than we're being spoon-fed.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much, sir.
unidentified		My pleasure, brother.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Uncharted X, it's on YouTube.
		Subscribe, like and subscribe.
		It's fucking amazing.
		And then you, what is your Instagram?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It's Uncharted X1 on Twitter and Uncharted X7 on Instagram.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I should probably fix that, but it is what it is.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		As long as it's not 6-7.
		That's the new thing with the kids these days.
		I heard about all that.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		I've heard about it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		Appreciate you very much.
		Peace, Joe.
		Bye, everybody.
unidentified		Thanks, bro.
unidentified		Yeah.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		I didn't want to force them, but I wanted to ask about that.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Shamir?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		We can throw it back in.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I can talk about it real quick.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
		You want to talk about it?
		I can unend it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Sorry, folks.
		We unended it.
		We unended it because Jamie had sent me this earlier today, Solomon's Shamir.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the Shamir.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		So you are familiar with it?
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		I am.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So this is an ancient idea that there was a worm or a substance that had the power to cut through and disintegrate stone, iron, and diamond.
		And Solomon is said to have used it in the building of the first temple in Jerusalem in place of cutting tools.
		For the construction of Solomon's temple, which promoted peace, it was inappropriate to use tools that could also cause war and bloodshed.
unidentified		Yep.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		There's also, I found since we've been, since I sent that to you, there is an actual thing called a lethorio or something.
unidentified		What?
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		That they found in the Philippines.
unidentified		That does some sort of rock-eating worm.
unidentified		Yeah.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		The shamir is like Solomon's lightsaber, I like to call it.
		Yeah, it's, it's, it is described, the shamir is described as a stone-cutting implementing eight through that.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		So the guy who found it said he had never heard of the shamir.
		Huh.
		And some scientists don't know if they're even the same thing, but they do.
		They're described very similarly.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What a creepy-looking motherfucker that thing is.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		A rock-eating little worm.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Like grinding stone.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's crazy.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		There are a number of different depictions and descriptions for the shamir.
		And one of the reasons one of the problems with it being like this thing that slowly grinds through.
		Yeah, see, this is the weird part.
		The shamir was meant to have always been wrapped in wool and stored in a container made of lead.
		or the end of the container would burst and disintegrate.
		So it's like...
		What?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Under the Shamir's gaze?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		All I had to do is look at it.
unidentified		Whoa!
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		I don't think it had eyes.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		So are we describing radiation or something?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Like, what are we describing?
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Well, it gets into the realm of the Ark of the Covenant and everything else, too.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Wool and stored in lead?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's nuts.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		And then it lost its potency right after.
		Which I don't think.
		The dripping of the honeycomb.
		I don't know what that is.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		By the time of the destruction of the first temple during the siege of Jerusalem in 600 BC.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		But again, it still exists.
		They found it today, like 2019, I think.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Well, they found a worm that does something similar.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		It's a very similar worm.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		That's the evolution of it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Maybe they had a giant one.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		Maybe they could have trained them to be able to train pigeons to do stuff.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Eat the wall.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		He had to do it fast.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		One of the things, too, they had to build that Temple of Solomon quickly so that he was like, we can't use the regular methods, but we also need to be able to cut stone quickly.
		So one of the things the Shamir was described as doing is being able to cut these sort of hard stones.
		Like I think it described like diamond even.
		Yeah, as cutting it quickly.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		The blood of the Shamir was used for diamonds, but this also said that he was not, he didn't find it.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		It was given to him.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		It's given to him.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		A bird found it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		A bird.
unidentified		A bird.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		Someone noticed a bird was using it to make nests in rock.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		And they're like, let's get the hold of that.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		So, yeah, some people also speculate that there is a bird that vomits this thing or poops this thing that rocks which can melt rock.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The angel of the sea had then given the shamir to a bird.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Identified by the Talmud as a hoopie.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but it's the oldest bird.
		I believe this is like the where he had to go to several birds, which were also these spirits he talked to.
		And I think he had to get to the very lightsaber.
		The very last one.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's a lightsaber they got from aliens.
		It's a worm from a bird.
		It's a lightsaber from aliens.
ben van kerkwyk ▲ ● ▼		Radioactive alien lightsaber.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		All right.

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