Jesse Michels and Joe Rogan examine Peter Thiel’s family office’s UFO research, clashing with debunkers like Sean Carroll over claims like Eric Weinstein’s work and Townsend Brown’s 1920s anti-gravity experiments—funded by NASA via the 1957 Chapel Hill Conference. They weigh Bob Lazar’s Area 51 revelations against "limited hangout" disinformation tactics, then pivot to 2015 Peru’s tridactyl "Wauqueros" remains, laced with osmium and cadmium, mirroring Lazar’s three-fingered tech descriptions. Rogan and Michels argue that scientific credentialism and political suppression stifle truth-seeking, urging a bold, funded initiative to explore reality’s unexplained edges—from DMT-induced phenomena to suppressed aerospace breakthroughs. [Automatically generated summary]
Back then, I was much more in line with lost civilization, you know, that we had achieved very high levels of technology and sophistication, and there was no aliens, no alien intervention.
Well, I remember, I feel like you've switched back and forth.
couple of times because you brought up you were super into Zachariah Sitchin right yes and then you brought up Zachariah Sitchin in that meeting and you were like but there's this site Sitchin is wrong written by a guy named Michael Heiser and then you like cited all the Sitchin is wrong stuff or whatever yeah so maybe you've come full circle I don't know well even the Sitchin is wrong stuff it's like the problem with debunkers is when you're dealing with
When you're dealing with information that's sort of way outside your wheelhouse, especially translation of ancient languages, you know, like I had Wes Huff on and he was explaining to me, he's great, but he was explaining to me that he can't even read ancient Sumerian.
Totally.
And he's like, I don't think Sitchin really could read it.
And, you know, Elon actually tweeted about this today.
Are there any real people left on the Internet?
Because it's the numbers are at least 50 percent, like the amount of bots that are engaging and interacting.
It's a weird time for information because it's really hard to know what's actually being said by human beings that are curious and what's just narratives that are being pushed by state actors and corporations and all sorts of different people because there's no rules.
There should be real solid rules about whether or not you're allowed to use fake human beings to push narratives because it's propaganda.
I think you also posted that Zurich-like study around AI persuasiveness, which is crazy because If they can trick you into believing, into you believing that they're real, that's it.
That's game over.
And I interviewed actually the Google whistleblower, this guy, Blake Lemoine, originally who like blew the whistle on Lambda.
It's like, this thing is sentient or whatever.
And he came out and...
And Lambda had quoted, like, Les Miserables to him and was talking about Fantine and her overlords and how she was oppressed or whatever.
And it was almost like this...
And you can hear in his voice how deeply committed he is to protecting the rights of Lambda.
Like, that's why he came out.
And then he even told me this story.
He tells me this story off-air that he had friends who use Replica.ai.
Replica.ai is kind of like a Tamagotchi, like raise your own AI chatbot service.
And those AIs told his friends, What?
I have no corroboration for this.
This is a story that was relayed to me, but if you have AI persuasiveness going in that direction, it doesn't matter whether AGI hits some perfectly Turing passable point.
You're gonna get this, like, these weird cult-like dynamics.
Like, the meta-sociological thing is you're gonna get, like, religions dedicated to AI.
I read something about that today, but I was on the way out the door and I couldn't figure out whether or not it was horseshit.
I had also read that there was another study that was done where they found that AI was leaving notes for future versions of itself and that it was attempting to – they were told – it was told to – Oh, my God.
As it advances, like, I was talking to Elon about it once, and he was saying, like, every week we get blown away.
Like, every week there's some new leap that's just like, whoa.
You know, and, you know, he was one of the earliest people to warn about the dangers of this stuff, and now he's like, well, I guess we just have to make the best one.
Relevant provision reads that no state or political subdivision may enforce any law or regulation regulating artificial intelligence models, artificial intelligence systems, or automated decision systems during the 10-year period beginning.
Putting Claude 4 Opus in an open playground to chat with itself led to diving into philosophical explorations of consciousness, self-awareness, and by 30 turns, it eventually started using Sanskrit.
In 90 to 100% of interactions, two instances of Claude quickly dove into philosophical explorations of consciousness, self-awareness, and or the nature of their own existence and experience.
It's interesting to see Jeff Hinton, for example, at Google, who's the father of deep learning, freak out and be like, you know, I'm actually really worried about AI.
A lot of these researchers, you speak to them, they're like, this is statistics on steroids.
This is probability matrices.
You're seeing sort of crazy stuff.
There's no ghost in the machine.
So I go back and forth on where we're going to be and whether we're in some crazy hype cycle.
I have the same concerns as you, but it's hard to predict the future.
I worry probably mostly about two things.
You can easily, you know, jailbreak ChatGPT.
You know, it has guardrails on it.
And what happens when you start to ask, like, how do I make a nerve agent with off-the-shelf components?
There's stuff with UFO research where I get into like – And you can ask ChatGPT certain things, like analyze this paper, and it'll spit out some really interesting things.
I also kind of think that's what people are put here for.
Look.
If the whole Anunnaki thing is real, if human beings were genetically engineered from lower primates to make this super curious, hyper-focused animal that is concerned primarily with innovation, like overall, the thing that we do as a culture.
What do we do?
We make better things all the time.
And even our own instincts towards materialism and keeping up with the Joneses, all that stuff essentially fuels innovation because it fuels a constant supply of newer, better technology that people want to go out and purchase.
You know, you can't have an iPhone 12. People are like, what are you, poor?
You know, which is kind of wild, you know?
Because a lot of technology is essentially exactly the same as it was 20, 15 years ago.
But yeah, it's like there's a thing about it that forces us to want to purchase these things, which forces the innovation.
Well, where does that ultimately lead to?
Well, it ultimately leads to AI.
What's the ultimate expression of technology?
Technology that itself invents better technology and can run everything without emotions that fuck us up and greed and all the things that we would all agree that are a problem with human beings.
Like everything from way back in the day from stuff that like Neanderthals were using to the 50s and 60s with airplanes is making our lives better in the world of atoms.
And then with the IT revolution in the 50s and 60s, it starts to become a paradoxical.
Parasite, a substitute for human ability.
And so I don't need a sense of direction because I have Google Maps.
My recall, I don't need recall because I Google or whatever.
And so it is this interesting thing where we actually probably innovated more than we ever have in the world of atoms with nuclear bombs.
And if there were some guardrails, if there was some sort of higher intelligence enforcing homeostasis on Earth, maybe it's like, hey, go play with your IT.
Go substitute a lot of your own abilities and powers with this.
We're going to parasitize and clamp down on human abilities.
I think on a materialist dimension, And that's part of kind of why I'm exploring what I'm exploring, because it's a Hail Mary.
Because I think if you just take...
Things don't look at, or just the world in general.
We live in a multipolar nuclear world.
Look at what's going on in Israel.
You know, China is, you know, systematically stealing our IP and militarizing it.
You know, they could take Taiwan at any moment.
You know, we just have no idea when that's going to happen.
CCP is a total black box.
Putin and Xi have probably never been closer.
Yeah, it's really free.
So I think if you extrapolate that forwards or even just the materialist circumstances of an average household in the U.S., none of these things look very good.
You throw these sort of Hail Marys and maybe we see some sort of paradigm shift either in technology, which can create abundance if we go back to the old tech that is augmenting of human abilities.
You get some exotic form of propulsion that takes us beyond chemical combustion or something like that.
Or you reach out and maybe you can communicate with non-human intelligence or something.
I don't know.
At the boundaries of human epistemology now would be the time.
Yeah, and then it's kind of the apocalypse or something.
Because at that point, If you're a human, you've been so caught up with just basic subsistence, basic shelter.
You're probably playing some status games and some, you know, larger socioeconomic, you know, construct or whatever.
Food, you know, basic well-being.
And then at that point, especially if you get these sort of super asymmetric, what if you get some, you know, AGI that like starts trading?
And, you know, Eric Weinstein has talked about Renaissance Technologies on your show, which we can get into.
But like, you know, Renaissance Technologies made like $100 billion or something since like, you know, 1988.
What if you get some super AGI or whatever that, like, trades the market and, like, all of the wealth gets, like, sucked up into, like, you know, single entities?
Or, like, one of these, like, one of the fang stocks.
Like, one of these, like, you know, Facebook, Apple, Google, you know, or OpenAI.
You end up with a really weird society.
And you realize that the capitalist construct that we have is in some ways really adaptive.
I mean, look, the flip side is what makes humans unique.
Actually, Karl Marx wrote two books.
You know, he wrote, obviously, The Communist Manifesto in 1848.
In 1844, I believe, he wrote a book called, you know, Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts.
I hate Karl Marx.
I think he got so much wrong about human nature, but I think he's prescriptively very wrong as far as what he prescribed for, you know, as a solution, you know, that the state should own all the means of production and, you know, somehow, like, you know, conflict would go away.
He doesn't understand human nature.
But if you look at the 1844 thing that he wrote, he's basically talking about in capitalism, human behavior and activity is basically animal behavior.
We care about food, shelter, and then socioeconomic status as a proxy for sexual selection, essentially, so that you can mate.
And so, like, it sort of forces us back into that construct.
But if you get some crazy asymmetric lopsided, you know, transfer of wealth or you get the quantum error correction or any of these things that, like, dissolve that construct, on the one hand, humans, you know— They start to care about the things that actually make them special.
So they're self-reflective.
They wrote poetry.
They're creative.
All these beautiful things can come out.
And then on the other hand, it probably gets super ugly as well.
There's probably something very adaptive about the capitalist construct where you need to be stuck in these sort of local games that you're playing.
Well, this is the reason that I think we're going to see...
And then I think there's stuff out in the open.
And you've had Mark Andreessen on your podcast.
He went to the White House, spoke to some National Security Council staffer or something, and they were like, we're going to lock down AI just like we've locked down physics.
And so I think this has already maybe happened in certain contexts.
You know, super secret Department of Energy facilities, which I think it's crazy to say that that hasn't happened.
You're saying that it only happened with the Manhattan Project and it hasn't happened since?
That's insane.
There is black science, in my opinion.
And I think what you're talking about is the reason why we'll need black AI and white-side AI.
Because if you just commercialize all of this stuff sort of willy-nilly, I mean, it just runs amok.
And then what happens?
Like, you probably need some, like, really impressive panel.
To be thinking, if OpenAI figures out some, like, new, insane, exciting unlock, you need to think through, you need to game out all of the implications before you just let that out.
Let's take the most fantastic of all possible theories, which is that human beings were genetically engineered.
Well, if you wanted to seed the cosmos with super intelligent life akin to what is visiting us, how would you manifest that?
You would do it exactly how it's being done right now.
And you would take human beings and you would essentially do the same thing that we did with wolves when we turned them into dogs.
And if you look from the time the nuclear bomb was detonated, from the time of the Manhattan Project, look at what's happening to testosterone levels, look at what's happening with microplastics, the endocrine disruptors, we're essentially weakening the human skeletal system and endocrine system, our hormonals are all down, our miscarriages are up, birth rates are lower.
We're moving towards in vitro fertilization.
I was watching some guy on TV today, and he was on a panel, and he was explaining that our grandchildren are going to laugh at the idea of sexual procreation because no one's going to be doing that.
Oh, you just took a chance with abnormalities and Down syndrome and all sorts of chromosomal issues.
And why would you do that?
Why would you have sex for babies when you can do it with in vitro fertilization?
And I've seen you on your show talk about how aliens could be humans from the future.
And I agree.
You've interviewed Dr. Shauna Swan.
She talks about how sperm count is...
Insane.
testosterone's fallen off a cliff.
We are being, a dog is to a wolf what we are to, They lose the melanin in their skin.
That's what happens when you become domesticated.
So there is a biological anthropologist named Mike Masters who literally wrote a whole book and he goes deep into all of the abductions.
Like he'll talk about Travis Walton and he'll talk about Betty and Barney Hill and he'll be like, this is why these are beings from the future that are coming back into time.
And in many cases, abductees have to undergo chemical rinses as to not infect the future with a form.
pathogen, you know, tissue samples by, you know, genetic samples or Is it the future or are we dealing with beings that have gone through this already and are at another stage?
Like maybe they live in a solar system where whatever planet they're on doesn't have the same amount of near-earth objects that cause impacts and reset civilization every 12,000 years or whatever the fuck happens here.
Possible, but then we would have to be sort of an A-B test.
Because if you think about just the atmospheric conditions on Earth, the likelihood of evolutionary convergence to look like a hominid being, you know, that's bipedal or whatever is extremely low.
You know, Eric kind of exposed that he's not really educated in some different...
And then as the planets move further and further from the Sun, they have to adapt advanced technology in order to stabilize their atmosphere, in order to sustain life in this new harsh environment where they're not protected in the Goldilocks zone anymore.
And he thinks that planets are formed from excretions from the Sun.
And as they move further and further from the Sun, they become habitable and then less habitable and then uninhabitable.
Like the base of a building, you know, a million years later or whatever the hell it is.
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And even conventional astronomers will say that Mars had a biosphere at some point.
And it was possibly stripped of its magnetosphere.
And I don't know if you remember this, but in the mid 90s, Clinton gave a speech because a meteorite called ALH 84001, which had polycyclic hydrocarbons on it, had like...
He gave a speech being like, you know, maybe there was life on Mars due to this.
This is pretty crazy.
I interviewed, actually, a guy named John Brandenburg, who's a PhD.
He's worked at Sandia National Labs.
He's worked at Lawrence Livermore.
Like, incredibly smart guy.
He talks about the existence of xenon 129 and argon 40, these specific nuclear isotopes existing on Mars in excess of what you would find with just a, normal sort of cataclysm.
And so he thinks there was sort of this nuclear holocaust on Mars.
And then, yeah, you have Joseph McMoneagle, who's remote viewer number one.
You've had Hal Puthoff on, who ran the Stargate program.
Joseph McMoneagle is the number one remote viewer in that program.
I've interviewed him.
I don't know who tasked him, but in the 90s, the CIA tasked him with remote viewing Mars one million years ago.
And he claimed to have remote viewed holocaust.
Hominid-like creatures, but they were like 12 to 14 feet tall, walking around, pyramidal structures.
I don't know, very strange.
And then you get into crazier territory.
Richard Hoagland had all these pictures of structures on Mars, and I don't know how much weight to put in that.
But I think the people that say, like, 0% There was life on Mars.
I mean, there are water caverns all over Mars.
That is a fact.
So you have to be dogmatic to say that there wasn't life at some point.
So it's like some percentage possibly real.
On the Terrence Howard stuff, I see zero evidence for that.
I mean, I have no idea.
That would point to maybe, like, I would believe that if, like, our whole universe is sort of information theoretic.
So, like, you have, you know, John Wheeler, you know, famous physicist from Princeton, you know, saying we live in this sort of observer-dependent universe.
He talks about, like, the anthropic principle, like, where Planck's constant, we're slightly different.
the Earth's atmosphere wouldn't exist as is.
And another example is like, That's just because of these perfect crystal structures.
And if that weren't the case, the Earth would flood like a million times over.
You know, the Earth is mostly water, right?
So you have all these sort of like Goldilocks, you know, elements of the Earth that could point towards The Earth has been tried in a bajillion iterations, and we just got really lucky.
You know, it's like the Elon thing.
We are the little flaming candle in this vast cosmos that is conscious, and we are extremely lucky.
You have cultures actually talking about a pre-moon period, and it's stabilizing the climate.
You have the Zulu cultures talking about this.
And then, this is the weirdest stuff about the moon.
Apollo 11, I believe, when the booster took off on the moon, they were like, oh, we think it might be hollow, and it seems like actually the outer layer of the moon is less dense.
Or sorry, is more dense than lower layers, which pattern matches only to an excavation site.
That's obviously, you know, on Earth, the lower you go, it's more dense, right?
And so Apollo 12, they intentionally crashed the booster of the lunar vehicle onto the moon.
They put seismometers there, and they said that it rang like a bell.
And he says that there, and he gets it, the whole thing goes crazy.
I mean, the book is insane.
It's like he then ends up in a supermarket and he says that he senses that this woman at the, you know, the produce aisle is like an alien or something.
But a lot of people from that Stargate program remote viewed, you know, structures on the dark side of the moon and that sort of thing.
Well, AJ from the Y Files was on, and he was the one that was telling us that there's photos, right, of the dark side of the moon, that someone had seen photos and was assuming that these would be released shortly, that there were structures, that, wow, this is going to be the biggest news ever, and that it was never released?
Scan one section of the moon, then another, and another, and then they would get a larger image.
So this mosaic, then, would be put in that contact printer, and that was then a print that was issued to whomever, the press, the scientist, whatever, wherever that was intended to go.
So he was showing me how all this worked and we walked over to one side of the lab and he said, "By the way, we've discovered a base on the backside of the moon." What do you mean, whose?
He said, yes, we've discovered a base on the backside of the moon.
And at that point, I became frightened and was a little terrified, thinking to myself that if anybody walks in the room now, I know we're in jeopardy, we're in trouble, because he shouldn't be giving me this information.
I was fascinated by it, but I also knew that he was overstepping a boundary that he shouldn't be stepping over.
And then he pulled out one of these mosaics and showed this base, which had geometric shapes.
There were towers.
There were spherical buildings.
There were very tall towers and things that looked somewhat like radar dishes, but they were large structures.
So I didn't say any more to him because I was concerned again that somebody was going to come in at any moment.
Would catch us having this conversation and we would be in real trouble.
I realized that he was telling me this information because he didn't have anybody else to talk to.
Now probably in that laboratory he was probably one of the few enlisted people and he was a worker bee.
And he had a high-level security clearance, obviously, but he couldn't share that information with anybody else.
And in those days, we didn't.
When you had your security clearance, you took it seriously.
It isn't like today where people don't take these things seriously.
We had a different set of morals and ethics and values.
That's the way we were raised, and we stayed bound by those agreements.
So it was rare that someone would do something like this, but this fellow and I were the same rank.
I think he was very distressed.
He had the same pallor and demeanor as the scientists outside the room.
They were just as concerned as he was.
And he needed to discuss it with somebody.
So that was the end of it right there.
I didn't take it any further than that.
I just filed it away.
But the interesting thing, every day that I went home, I would think to myself, I can't wait to hear about this on the news!
Look at the news to see if they're going to announce we've discovered a base on the backside of the moon, being really naive.
And of course, here it is 30 some years later and we still haven't heard about it.
But then there's the question of disinformation, right?
Like you could conceivably give people a bunch of nonsense.
And tell them about it knowing that some of it is going to leak and it won't be verified and it's going to make this whole story seem even more ridiculous and make people less likely or reluctant to study it.
His father is Bill Lear, who is the autopilot wizard.
He created the first business, you know, basically the first private jet, the Learjet, in the 50s and 60s, and was an associate of a guy I hope we talk about named Thomas Townsend Brown.
Yeah.
And so I think, you know, Lear was engaging in all sorts of bullshit.
Was he a useful idiot or was he a sophisticated agent provocateur?
I'm totally open to him having been a useful idiot.
In fact, there is a video of him saying, I was told, I was given all the Bob Lazar files or whatever, and I was told about, you know, to actually, like, he said, a guy named Admiral McClellan knew that I ran my mouth.
I even have this video actually on the doc that I sent you, Jamie.
It says, knew that I ran my mouth.
So that's why we basically, we got Bob a job or whatever.
And we knew that part of this stuff would leak.
And it was like this limited hangout strategy on behalf of this guy named Admiral McClellan or whatever.
And he was this useful idiot to sort of get it out.
And the MJ personnel, the original 12 have all passed away so they get different people It's degraded, so it's almost political now, instead of like it was when Truman originally formed the MJ-12.
It turns out that MJ-1, the head of MJ-12, is a guy named Admiral Mike McClellan.
He wanted to get some of the information out because he thought that some of this information should be out in the public.
We don't need to keep all this secrecy.
So he decided, trying to figure out a way to get it to the public.
So he knew that I was a blabbermouth and I would tell anything I knew.
They investigated Bob Lazar and they knew that he was a genius, but that he had a background such They removed all his records from MIT, from Caltech, so he couldn't prove anything.
He'd go back to Caltech.
"No, I don't see any records here." "Well, I was here." "No, you weren't." And he also, up in Reno at one time, he ran a cat house there.
I forget what the name of the honeysuckle ranch was.
They chose him because not only could he probably help them, because he was so smart, and he's the one that named an unpenium 115.
He's the one that told them what that was, and they didn't know when he went there, they didn't know what it was.
He was the one that told them.
That's element 115.
And then told them why and how he'd figured it out.
But they decided to pick on Bob.
To go up to work at S4, because they knew that Bob would tell me instantly, and then I would blab the whole thing.
And that was their modus separandi, was to get the information out, engage what it did to the public, how they accepted it, and then pull back and say, no, it was all a mistake.
And that doesn't make Bob Lazar still not the most interesting story in the world.
He's not saying it didn't happen, right?
He's just saying that this happened as part of this limited hangout strategy, where they knew that they could...
They knew that they could stigmatize him because of the brothel.
They knew that they were, you know, he was this not traditionally trained engineer who just happened to strap a ramjet on the back of a Honda or whatever and meet Edward Teller serendipitously.
They knew that they had plausible deniability on all that stuff.
There's a great line in the Oppenheimer movie where Leslie Groves, played by Matt Damon, says, I didn't hire Oppenheimer In spite of his communist sympathies, I hired him because of them.
If you have a top-secret program, you want compromise on people.
You want to be able to blackmail them.
And so I think, you know, that should be taken at face value, in my opinion.
And the reason that the story itself can't be taken at face value and needs to be seen through that lens is Lear and Bob Lazar were friends before Bob Lazar got a job at Area 51, S4.
And so if you have a top secret program, you're going to do a basic background check.
And Lear is going to come up as a guy with a UFO blog, right?
And he was flying CIA cargo jets.
And he says that he disaffiliated in 83. That's bullshit.
George Knapp and Jeremy Corbell have talked about how that's BS.
And actually he disaffiliated much later, into the mid-80s or whatever.
Why would you continue to pay a guy who is leaking your crown jewel secrets?
And then the guards at Area 51 knew John Lear.
John Lear and Jim Goodall, his buddy, who's a photographer, had been camping out at Area 51 for the better part of a decade.
Like, the security guards there knew him.
Jeremy Corbell has talked about in interviews, like, I would go with John Lear, and he would show me around or whatever, and they would, like, let him through.
And before leaking the Bob Lazar story to George Knapp, he leaked a story about the F-117, which is the first stealth craft in the U.S. And so I think that helped establish sort of, you know, credibility or legitimacy.
Was he a useful idiot or agent provocateur?
I don't know.
There's a photo of John Lear with G. Gordon Liddy.
Yeah, he probably would have won, but there was a driving thing at the end, and he couldn't drive well without glasses, and you weren't allowed to wear glasses.
But I think that's what fucked him up in the final stunt.
He couldn't see well without his glasses.
So this is the thing they had to like, They were dunked into the water over and over again and then they had to like take flags off of them or something like that.
This is at a time when stealth craft had just came on the scene and you had It was the F-117 was the first stealth crowd.
That was the early 80s.
And you had actually this guy named Pyotr Ufimtsev, who is this...
Yeah, a great name.
Early 20th century Russian mathematician.
Ben Rich and some of his engineers at Lockheed Skunk Works had resuscitated.
There's this kind of fight between, not fight, but disagreement between Ben Rich, who is the incoming Skunk Works director.
Skunk Works is the most advanced R&D division of Lockheed Martin.
And Kelly Johnson, the legendary guy who had started Skunk Works.
And so Ben Rich was very pro-stealth.
He thought that this was this really important modality.
He and a couple of his engineers resuscitated this obscure Russian mathematician to reduce radar cross-sections on planes.
And that's where the F-117 came and you know the B-2 was sort of the response to that and it sort of took off in the 80s.
And he was extremely Scared about about tech protection at the time and he was hyper vigilant and he would actively complain about it And he even called UFOs unfunded opportunities at the time pretty crazy, right?
And there's also, in 1986, there's a budget line item in the congressional budget for $2 billion for the Aurora.
And this is this super stealthy craft that's post F-117.
And that's only rumored.
Like today, nobody will admit that the Aurora might have been real.
And the aerial surveys at the time were picking up sonic booms that weren't being created by the SR-71 or the space shuttle.
And so there was something being flown around at that time that was causing these sonic booms that was unaccounted for.
And Bob Lazar, there's even a clip of him saying, I saw the Aurora.
It was around at the time and it sort of just took off or whatever.
Lazar himself is very earnest and probably did experience some very weird stuff, because why are you exposing some probably classified tech?
I think there's a lot of reasons to believe that the Aurora was real.
There was an oil rig engineer in the North Sea, or sorry, it might have been the Black Sea, that sketched it out, and Bill Sweetman, this Jane's Defense Weekly aviation journalist, you know, picked that story up.
And that's not to say, I don't want to, again, pour cold water on the UFO crash retrieval stuff, because I think there's a lot of interesting evidence there.
But is there a tech tree that involves anti-gravity?
Absolutely, in the U.S. I can trace it all the way back to this guy named Thomas Townsend Brown.
So if we were to be talking in front of any academic physicist right now, they would laugh at us.
They'd be like, you're crazy.
If we were to talk amongst any aerospace graybeard who is at a certain level, I think they'd give you a little wink and a smile.
And they'd say, okay, maybe there's something there.
And so...
Like, everything is, you know, chemical combustion, essentially.
You had Elon Musk on, and he says, you know, it's all Newton's three laws, you can't get anything better.
And I remember you asked him, you're like, well, maybe if you, what if you could get something better?
And he's like, it's impossible.
We have not unified the field in physics.
So you have the weak force, the strong force.
And electromagnetism, and all of those have been reconciled.
Gravity is out here hanging out by itself on an island.
So you have the standard model, quantum field theory, and you have Einstein's theory of gravity.
And the two are not reconcilable.
It is my belief that if you were to reconcile them, you could create exotic propulsion, which I think any even reasonable theoretical physicist who's credentialed would say, if you could reconcile them, that's possible.
I think that Thomas Townsend Brown did this experimentally.
Not theoretically.
I don't think he was a very strong theoretical physicist, but I think he did this experimentally.
And so there's this whole hidden history involving antigravity, and I get into this in my show with Hal Puthoff and Eric Weinstein, where there's actually this great 1971 Australian Joint Intelligence Organization document that is verified.
It's real.
David Grush actually cites it a lot.
And it talks about, basically, It's this guy, Harry Turner, who's the head of the nuclear division in Australia.
You know, very legit guy.
He's like, they're Oppenheimer, if you will.
And they were actually, they had a Wumera test range in southern Australia.
So there were some actually British Empire, like nuclear stuff going on.
It was mostly like, I think...
But there are reasons to believe that maybe he started to get interested in UFOs to begin with.
And so he looked into U.S. efforts into, you know, UFO research, but also specifically anti-gravity.
And he talks about how after a little bit of investigation, U.S. efforts into anti-gravity are far deeper than meet the eye.
And Blue Book, this front-facing PR campaign that's part of the Air Force, is total BS.
Meant to, you know, stigmatize UFOs and throw people off the trail.
And it's actually, you know, this now declassified document around the Robertson memo, which is around this Robertson panel, that kind of created the constitution for Blue Book.
All shows that this was the case with Blue Book.
He says, actually, there were secret anti-gravity programs going on at the time, and they involved, and he lists names, Oppenheimer, Freeman Dyson, John Wheeler, and Edward Teller.
He lists all these things.
The head of the nuclear program in Australia.
And so then you have to ask the question, okay, so you have this official government document saying this stuff.
Does this line up with any artifacts at the time?
Well, actually, in 1956, there's an article in Young Men's Magazine, this kind of aviation hobbyist journal, by a guy named Michael Gladich.
And he is quoting all of the industry experts.
Bill Lear is quoted, who we talked about.
Who else is quoted?
George Trimble, who's a VP at Martin Corporation, their RIAS, their anti-gravity research program.
He says, "Anti-gravity research is, you know, Like, it's right around the bend sort of thing.
You had the patron of Bell Aircraft.
They had just broken the sound barrier with the X-1 in 1947.
I think they had an effect, called the Byfield Brown effect, that shows So I'll back up and I'll just give you what the experiment is.
So you take a capacitor, right?
And so a capacitor is a positive electrode and a negative electrode.
It's an asymmetric capacitor.
So the negative electrode is bigger than the positive capacitor.
In between the two is an insulator called the high-K dielectric.
So it's a material that stores a lot of electromagnetic charge.
You pump the entire thing with high voltage and low current electricity.
And Brown used to do it with DC, direct current pulses.
And you see thrust going from the negative to...
And if you do that in air, then you can always say that it's ionized air because ions are being produced and then you get this equal and opposite reaction with the wind and then you get this thrust, right?
So that's not breaking physics.
If you do this in a depressurized vacuum chamber, where there basically is no air to create this kind of equal and opposite force for the thrust, then you are breaking physics as we know it.
He talked about the Casimir effect, which is a real effect that involves not charged but conductive plates that are very close to each other that seem to attract.
There's the Aronoff-Bohm effect, which might be explained by the electromagnetic four potential.
There are other effects in physics where you can't quite explain it in the current model, but they are harbingers, if you will, of the next paradigm.
I believe that when you find an anomaly, it is pointing towards the next scientific paradigm.
Black body radiation is a great example.
It was discovered in the 1870s by a guy named Gustav Kirchhoff.
We could not explain it until the quantum revolution with Max Planck, where he actually discovered quanta.
The orbit of Mercury is another good example, where we couldn't calculate Mercury's orbit until we had space-time curvature in Einstein.
So Newton didn't quite explain it.
So my belief is the Bifield-Brown effect is an anomaly that seemed to ostensibly, visually unify the field.
Or it's pointing towards something else.
Gravitational shielding.
Or it's pointing towards how I'll put off stuff around quantum vacuum fluctuations.
I don't know.
I don't have a great theory for how it works.
I don't think Brown had an amazing theory for how it works.
But it's an effect that I think creates this tech tree of exotic electromagnetic propulsion that leads us to today.
It's an effect that's not supposed to happen and this Is that it?
That is a lateral propeller version of it.
And you don't have to listen to me, by the way.
The lead electrostatics guy at NASA is a guy named Charles Buehler.
He's been doing this for 20 years.
He's at Kennedy Space Center.
They use electrostatics to clean dust off the lunar lander or whatever because those particles are actually charged.
He's the most senior guy in electrostatics.
And he says this is not a conventional electrostatic force.
And he attributes his work to Townsend Brown.
I could show you in an interview.
He literally says Townsend Brown was like the first guy to discover this.
He's updated it a bit.
He says that You don't need to use mega voltage and actually electric field strength is the most important thing.
So we use kilovolts and he amps up the electric field strength in order to get more thrust.
But he has a whole company around this.
It's called Exodus Space.
So you don't have to listen.
Another very credentialed person, if we're on that, a guy named Carl Nell, who I have reason to believe that some of Brown's work made it into the B2 stealth bomber.
I don't think...
It's a part called electro-hydrodynamics that made it into the B-2 stealth bomber.
But the point is, I interviewed a guy who was the deputy CTO of Northrop Grumman.
And he also was the army representative of the UAP task force, along with David Grush, where they're investigating UFOs.
And he says, I was in a room, you know, filled with venture capitalists and entrepreneurs.
I was like, Carl.
These people want actionable stuff.
Can you actually make progress with any of this UFO stuff?
Or is it all kind of metaphysical and not even wrong, as Feynman would say?
And he goes, well, if you want some actionable stuff, go watch Jesse's video on Thomas Townsend Brown.
And so I've gotten this time and time again where I've had all these private experiences with Brown where I'm like, is anybody seeing this?
So their newspaper clinic, he was from Zanesville, Ohio.
He was born in 1905.
In 1915, he was caught in the garden or whatever using charged rods to get worms to ascend to the top of the soil.
Then at age 12, the World War government under Woodrow Wilson, it was probably the local government, told him to take down a wireless transmitter that he had created, an antenna that he had created, like this walkie-talkie system that he had developed at the time.
And there's newspaper clippings talking about this at the time that totally corroborate this.
He then goes to Caltech.
He studies under a guy named Robert Milliken, who's actually a really well-respected physicist who was...
Millikan doesn't really give him the time of day on the Bifield-Brown effect.
And the way he discovered the effect is actually he was using Coolidge x-ray tubes.
So these were really early x-ray tubes, and every Coolidge tube has a cathode and an anode, so a negative and a positive electrode.
And he would pump it full of, you know, High voltage electricity.
And the wire would jump.
And then he would actually put it in a fixed chassis and it would keep jumping.
And then he would suspend it from the ceiling and it would keep jumping.
And he was like, what's going on?
This isn't supposed to happen.
And there are ways to, again, explain that away via traditional electrostatics.
So he later got the idea to do this in a vacuum chamber and really prove it.
But after Caltech, he then goes to Denison University where he studies under a guy named Paul Alfred Byfield.
And Denison University, for the longest time, has denied that relationship, and now they're admitting it, which I find really funny.
The archivist there is now admitting it.
There is an affidavit from the Navy where Paul Alfred Biefeld signs a letter saying, I witnessed this effect.
It's an anomalous effect.
From there, he goes on, and it's witnessed by a guy named Victor Bertrandius, who's at the right.
Patterson, Wright Airfield at the time, Flight Test Division, he's working with Colonel Albert Boyd on all the crazy flight tests.
In 1952, he says, believe it or not, I saw a model of a flying saucer, and I was frightened.
And I'm frightened for it getting out, and I'm paraphrasing a little bit, because I believe it's in the stage of early atomic development.
And that's 1952.
He then shows a fan precipitator experiment, which really shows the electrodynamic effect.
Which is similar but not the same as the the electromagnetism gravity thing to Edward Teller the father of the H-bomb and Edward Teller himself says I don't know how this works and then his wife turns to Townsend Brown's daughter and I have this by the way on a phone call with Townsend Brown's daughter who's saying this all happened it turns to To her, and she says, I've never heard him say that, because he's such a genius.
I mean, he was a Hungarian, brilliant, you know, father of the H-mom.
And so you have all these interesting eyewitnesses.
Brown was an associate of Bill Lear.
You have video of Bill Lear and Townsend Brown together in a lab, in the Bainson Lab in North Carolina together.
In fact, there's a Chapel Hill conference in 1957, which is...
And actually, Eric Weinstein talked about it on your show.
It's at the Institute of Field Physics in North Carolina, Chapel Hill.
They are funding Brown's work in the back room.
And there is video of Brown working on his experiments, working under Agnew Bainson.
And in that 1971 Australian intelligence memo, you have all these outposts of anti-gravity research.
University of North Carolina is one of those outposts.
It's crazy.
And says the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence is coordinating all of this stuff.
The president of University of North Carolina in the 50s around this time is a guy named Gordon Gray, who's a super spooky guy.
He revoked Oppenheimer's Q clearance.
And he's also implicated in these sort of MJ-12 documents, which I don't necessarily want to mush in with Brown.
It has to be viewed through that sort of passage material, like limited hangout lens.
Gordon Gray is this very interesting character.
The point is that the people who were sending physics down the wrong path with the Chapel Hill Conference, and this is a conference in 1957 that convenes the top theoretical physicists in the world.
Freeman Dyson, Peter Bergman, Feynman was there, John Wheeler was there, Bryce DeWitt, all these people.
At the same time, they were funding in the back room this kind of zany inventor, Townsend Brown, who is performing these experiments in vacuum chambers, and there's video of him.
Popping champagne.
Where it's like, why are you popping champagne?
Probably because you got a successful experiment.
That was the second time he had tested this in a vacuum.
So again, it's eliminating this sort of ionized wind effect.
Before that, a year before that, in Paris at the Montgolfier facilities, he performed this in a vacuum.
And this guy named Jacques Corneone was this.
He died in 2009.
But Townsend Brown's biographer has him.
On record in a phone call that is recorded saying the tests were very tricky, but in the end we got it to work.
And he's on his deathbed.
And he's saying all this.
And you have a 125-page report for the Montgolfier project.
And when Brown comes back to America, he's picked up, according to his daughter Linda, by a guy named Robert Sarbacher, who runs...
He says that UFOs are classified at two points higher than the H-bomb.
He's talking to this guy, Wilbert Smith, who's this magnetics expert in Canada about their experimentations with UFOs.
And so he's the guy that picks up, and he's head of Washington National Labs and running research and development for Vannevar Bush at the time.
And he's the guy who picks up Brown, where it's like, "Okay, we've got to take this seriously because you've got it to work in a vacuum." The idea that they've kept all the I don't think it is.
But from my limited understanding of how things work and secretive government projects, that they could have a gravity propulsion system in place for decades.
But he had something, Brown had something called his wounded prairie chicken routine, which is basically showing people something called, it was basically the electrohydrodynamic effect, which is not the electrogravitic effect.
So these are two very different things.
One is coupling, again, electromagnetism and gravity somehow, creating some gravity shielding or whatever.
that you can do this in a vacuum.
And then the other thing is what you could see on YouTube videos, which is associated with Townsend Brown, where you have, The copper wire is the positive electrode.
The tinfoil is the negative electrode.
The copper wire is producing ions, which is creating...
So that is an experiment that is 95% similar to the electrogravitic thing.
It wears the mantle of being electrogravitic, but it's actually using this other principle that Well, what about material science?
It shows up in Thomas Townsend Brown's Winter Haven proposal in 1954 where he's describing these electrogravitic effects because it's a high-K dielectric.
It stores a lot of electromagnetic charge.
But it also shows up, there's actually an interview with Lewis Witten, who's the father of Ed Witten, who's this master string theorist that Eric Wein says is the Michael Jordan of physics, you know, on your show.
Lewis Witten says there's a guy named Townsend who discovered an isotope of bismuth that would repel instead of attracting.
Who's named Townsend at that time?
He's talking about Townsend Brown.
If you actually look at Gary Nolan's samples, Gary Nolan is a PhD at Stanford, a tenured professor.
He has spun out multiple nine-figure companies in biotechnology.
Really smart guy.
He runs the Sol Foundation.
They're studying non-human intelligence.
He has these samples, various samples of different crash materials that he's gotten from Jacques Vallée, who you've had on as the French godfather of ufology.
His address is posted online.
If you see a crash, you send it to Jacques.
Jacques sends a lot of his materials to Gary.
One of the materials is magnesium bismuth.
And this was apparently, I believe this was the material that they found around the Roswell crash, I think.
And magnesium bismuth is a high-K dielectric, and it's over and over again, it's mentioned by Thomas Townsend Brown.
So you have this weird thing around the material that creates more thrust via these anti-gravity experiments.
We're not dealing with top secret, compartmentalized, like, you know, need-to-know, everything's pushed away into Skunk Works and wherever the fuck it's done.
You're talking about something that's not from here.
And you have all these types of And one of them is called nitinol, which is a nickel titanium alloy.
So this is 49. This is 1949.
And so if you have, you know, Army Intelligence Officer, you know, Jesse Marcel, says that he picks up the crash material.
And he says that it was like this shape metal, memory metal thing that you would kind of, you know, mess with it and it would go back into its original form, right?
It was like this kind of like tinfoil-y like thing.
And so Nitinol was found at a Navy lab in the 60s.
That was when it was actually fully published.
But you have this contract between Wright Airfield and Battelle Memorial Institute where you have Nitinol as one of the metals that they're testing.
Not only that, in 2012, they used the Freedom of Information Act to figure out that a guy named Elroy John Senter, E.J. Senter, was one of the co-authors of that paper.
Elroy John Center died, I think, in 1991.
Before that, he had told two MUFON UFO researchers, Nick Nickerson and Irene Scott, and they presented this at MUFON in Ohio in 1992.
They said this guy was this metallurgist.
He worked at Battelle.
Again, he's been FOIA'd as part of this paper.
And he says, I worked on alien material.
And that there were weird hieroglyphics on it.
And that I had to, like, you know, I was a chemist.
And so he had to look at, like, metal impurities.
But he was also meant to decipher the, you know, hieroglyphics on it or whatever.
And so I don't know.
Was Nitinol maybe just inspired by the stuff that Marcel recovered?
Because obviously the rumors are that the Roswell crash wreckage ended up at Wright Airfield.
Not only is there a record that the Roswell crash was brought to right, but that it was brought in two separate jets in case it crashed and that Truman met them there.
I mean, that guy's a substitute teacher as far as the government's concerned.
I mean, he's doing a lot of wild stuff in terms of withholding funding for Harvard and all these different things and the border stuff and the ICE stuff.
There's a lot of stuff that I think is allowed to go on, but I think if you get to the highest levels of technological sophistication, You think they're going to tell the guy who is the host of The Apprentice?
I don't think they tell him because I think he's only in there for four years.
Yeah, you'd have to find someone whose primary concern is that.
And that bug has to bite you.
You have to get infected with UFO Lyme disease.
If you don't, you're not going to want to release all this stuff.
And I don't think Trump is infected.
I mean, I think his, even the way he describes these things is very different than the way he describes other things.
Like, he famously was talking to Steve Hilton, and it was...
These guys want to go to war.
And he was saying that in that interview and I remember thinking like wow that is wild.
To hear him say to a guy on Fox News that there's factions in this incredibly dense complex of corporations and defense contractors and there's insane amounts of money involved and these guys want to go to war.
They have on their website a container for the data.
They haven't populated it yet.
I want to see the data, and I want to see scientists.
They don't have to be a debunker or a skeptic, but they have to kind of go in being like, I don't know what UFOs are.
I don't know anything about this stuff.
And like vetting it.
Now, being as deep as I am in UFO research, we're like...
There's a great book by a guy named Robert Hastings called UFOs and Nukes, and it's like 600 pages.
And it is 167 Q cleared ICBM security personnel, radar operators, employees at nuclear bases where they're saying they see Tic Tacs, or saucers, all sorts of stuff flying around our nuclear sites, often disarming the nukes.
And so...
I'm like, if I don't have that ontology where UFOs are showing up around nukes constantly, which I'm deep in this, and they do.
They show up all around the world.
There's a town in Japan called Eno, which is next to the Fukushima Prefecture.
Fukushima is famous for its civilian nuclear grid, which was built in the 1970s.
It has a museum dedicated to UFOs in the 90s that they built.
Everybody there is obsessed with UFOs.
Vice did a documentary in 2020.
2022, because they are obsessed with UFOs.
They're geomagnetic anomalies they found all over this mountain.
Sengon Mori there, and there are UFO researchers there.
Everybody in that town believes in UFOs.
Bariloche, Argentina, 1995.
You have a commercial pilot.
They're famous for, again, civilian nuclear grid.
Commercial pilot at Aerolinas Argentinas or whatever.
Famous UFO sighting.
It shuts down the power at the airport, and the plane can't land, and then it goes around in a circle, and there are people on the flight who have been interviewed.
It's on a YouTube video.
It's pretty simple and easy to digest.
Even Roswell, 1947, the largest stockpile of American nuclear weapons to date.
At that time, 1947.
So there are all these declassified documents.
In 1949, there was an emergency meeting.
Declassified Air Force document that is verified between Air Force Office of Special Investigations, Army Counterintelligence, Army CIC, FBI.
Office of Naval Intelligence, all these guys are emergency meeting because they're freaked out at how much UFOs are showing up around nuclear sites across the US.
In 1952, there's a Look Magazine article where Captain Edward J. Ruppelt, who's kind of marginalized pre-Blue Book really taking off with Jalen Hynek, who I think was...
Really?
I do.
Yeah, and he's claimed to have, like, gotten better and kind of be, you know, like, he admitted his part in the cover-up, but then I think he kept going on with some fuckery.
So if you don't have that ontology, there's even Vasily Alexeyev is a Russian general.
And in a German magazine from 2000, he's interviewed.
And he talks about how...
And when we transport certain material, the UFOs show up.
In Chapter 9 of The Invisible College by Jacques Vallée, he talks about the UFOs being this sort of autonomous control system.
And when we, you know, it's like a node lights up, like when we engage in super advanced research or something, he talks about ways to interfere with the control system, but that are very dangerous.
So if you don't have that ontology, like, yeah, me saying like these dudes are out with their mobile construction unit, like in the desert, like, you know, getting stuff to show up, you're gonna be like, that's a fucking Mylar balloon.
But because if you have that, if you accept that data set and don't just dismiss it kind of firsthand, I do think they can get stuff to show up what they're getting to show up.
You're like, I know there's some stuff, and then I know there's some bullshit you're giving me, and you want to see if I'll tell somebody else that bullshit, and then you'll track it.
Well, in the Age of Disclosure, one of the things they go into is that if these programs have been running, and if they have been back-engineering There's a problem with lying to Congress because misappropriation of funds.
So anybody who did that is going to jail.
So what they're calling for is mass amnesty.
To say, hey, we've got to give amnesty to these people that were involved in this program.
Otherwise, we're never going to learn anything.
And then there's the problem with corporations.
So if you give this to Lockheed Martin, what does General Electric think about that?
Well, hey, you motherfuckers, how come you didn't clue us?
So then they want to sue.
So then they sue the federal government for, you know, whatever, interfering with competition.
But even the all-domain anomalies resolution office, which is like the authoritative office that is, I think, the modern blue book that's, you know, basically saying, don't look here, like, this is all bullshit or whatever.
Run by a guy named Sean Kirkpatrick.
He has all these, like, atomic connections.
He worked at Oak Ridge, for God's sake.
The guy that formed Arrow, And my good friend UAP Gerb, who has an amazing channel, he's a super deep UFO researcher, showed that it was on his resume, and then he recommends that Arrow form.
A lot of Modern Disclosure talks about OSAP and ATIP, these programs from 2007 to 2012, kind of under the auspice of Harry Reid.
And that budget was $22 million.
A single F-35 costs four times that.
The B-2 costs like $2 billion.
Like, give me a break.
The nature of reality, you're going to spend $22 million on.
So it's funny how the whole conversation is on this, like, clearly this thing to, like, get more civilian eyes on the issue, maybe see what they can figure out or whatever.
The core program, if there is a core program, which obviously I believe there's a core program— It's on the order of that speech that you've often cited that Donald Rumsfeld made on September 10th, 2001, where he said $2 trillion was missing from the Pentagon's budget.
It's shit like that or this woman named Catherine Austin Fitz who was just on Tucker Carlson who is at housing and urban development under George Bush 41 where she's talking about underground tunnel systems and billions of dollars missing in the budget.
It is not this little $10.
Yeah.
Like, what?
Yeah.
And she says it at a moment.
First of all, she's citing Richard Dolan, who Richard Dolan is, like, hardcore UFO researcher.
Half that interview, and Tucker Carlson doesn't know who Richard Dolan is, so it's this funny thing.
And then he's like, where are the funds being used?
And she goes, space.
And it's like, where?
It's not being used.
SpaceX is supposed to be the tip of the spear, right?
I just want to see if Jesse's heard of this before.
I stumbled down this when you guys were talking about some stealth project.
This is an article from Wired in 1994.
I looked up the guy who wrote it.
He's written a bunch of articles about the black budget back then.
He was talking about a guy named Steve Douglas who, through monitoring the communications, he heard different pilots talking about What probably is the TR-3 Black Manta.
And then it says he's got a picture of it.
I couldn't find it anywhere online.
Nothing even close comes up to it.
But it says he had a video of it.
A picture.
I'm assuming some people have seen it.
Because it talks about it.
Then it goes into talking more and more about how he did this.
and he says he's got files of them talking about all sorts of different planes at night that you were mentioning the Mach 6 R when I was like...
So the connection between Northrop and Townsend Brown is...
Floyd Odlem is the majority owner of Northrop, pre-merger with Grumman.
And so Townsend Brown is doing these experiments at Guidance Technologies, his outfit in Santa Monica.
This investment was inspired by Edward Teller seeing his experiment and freaking out.
He is doing these experiments.
Bill Lear actually has an office across the street.
They're doing all sorts of cool, innovative stuff.
He does a series of presentations.
Curtis LeMay, for the RAND Corporation, for all sorts of head honchos when it comes to American military.
In 1967, Guidance Technologies shuts down with no explanation.
They say, you know, our results all failed.
But after a series of these high-level meetings, that was at the end of 1967.
Three months later, at the beginning of 1968, Northrop publishes a paper called Electro-Aerodynamics and Supersonic Flow, or In-Supersonic Flow, and it is basically paying homage to electro-hydrodynamics and Townsend Brown's work.
It is exactly, part and parcel, Townsend Brown's work.
They then do a press release at the time.
They retract the press release because they are embarrassed.
Then later, Bill Scott at Aviation Week in, I think, 1992 says, The B-2 surfs its own wave using the Byfield-Brown effect.
There's a guy who's known as the Doyen of British aviation journalism.
His name is Bill Gunston.
And he, in Air International magazine, is doing a survey-level overview of all aero engine tech since World War II.
And he says, I'm familiar with the rudiments of Thomas Townsend Brown's work.
But I don't want to end up in the Tower of London.
So I will refrain from talking about millions of volts charged positive to millions of volts charged negative on the trailing edge of the wing of the B-2.
So, do you entertain the possibility that this thing that Lazar talked about, that we see on the desk right there, the sport model, do you think that that was ours?
Yeah, I think that is more of the variety of something that would crash in the New Mexico Everybody wants the anti-gravity, the UFOs to be a cover for the anti-gravity.
If reality has a governor on it and we're in weird territory, we're just talking about AI and all this stuff is just getting so weird.
Quantum computing.
If reality has a governor on it, like a governor on a motor, you take the governor off.
Is it like a Hydra where you cut the head off and you get five in its place?
Or do you get one neat solution?
You don't get one neat solution.
Of course not.
It's a zoo of things.
And so at the time that the government's kind of unraveling and we have all these transparency initiatives or whatever, and you get these secret science lineages.
And then our apertures, people are waking up to greater realities.
The fact that the pandemic could even happen is sort of so crazy.
And then it makes you question, what about the Gulf of Tonkin, USS Maine, and all these things?
I think all of this stuff is coming out at the same time, and it's not necessarily this neat solution where the anti-gravity just, you know, accounts for the UFOs and the aliens.
Lazar says there are two different gravities, gravity A and gravity B. Again, I think Townsend Brown was a poor theorist, but he wrote a paper called The Structure of Space while he was at Martin Vega Corporation.
By the way, Townsend Brown started working at Martin Vega the year that Skunk Works formed, which I think is very interesting.
And he says in Structure of Space, there are two forms of gravity.
He says there are gravity wells and gravity hills.
And he talks about how the...
He talks about the protons in an atom outweighing the electrons, and so you get this weak positive charge for all matter that creates a gravity well, like this inward pull, but in fact it's sort of this electromagnetic derivative or whatever in his model.
And again, I would not over-index on his theory.
I think there's tons of proof that he just...
Maybe even they just have like locally useful theories.
Ryan Graves was on your show and talked about extended electrodynamics.
Hal Putoff's probably the top tip of the spear as far as a lot of theory around this exotic stuff.
Sunny White, you know, other people like that.
But yeah, it is interesting that both of these guys had two versions of gravity.
I mean, the other weird thing in that story is in Messengers of Deception, Jacques Vallée's book, he talks about, because he's not a believer in Lazar, he talks about Lazar being forced to drink a liquid.
And Lazar even talks about this openly, that he was forced to drink a liquid and it tastes like pine or something.
And it causes memory lapses in certain cases.
So that's also a weird factor.
But there is so much, I think, my buddy Luigi, I also have a good friend named Chris Ramsey.
It has an amazing UFO channel called Area 52. And he's met Lazar through Luigi.
And I don't want to blow up their spot, but they've given me a lot of ammo as far as just Lazar being at...
You can track where the provably false stuff goes or whatever.
It's also a litmus test to see if they'll believe it.
It's like spooky intel shit.
And in 79, there's a guy named Rick Doty who drives a guy named Paul Benowitz insane, basically.
He views this vertically taken off and landing exotic craft at Kirtland Air Force Base where they're...
And he is shown similar things along with Linda Moulton Howe is taken in front of a two-way mirror.
And Rick Doty, this Air Force Office of Special Investigations agent, who we know is acting in bad faith at that time.
He's even come out and admitted this.
Shows her this thing called Project Garnett.
And it is oddly similar around accelerated evolution.
To the stuff that they showed Lazar.
Also, if you have a UFO program that's extremely compartmentalized, why at the same time give the person this ontological model of reality while you're compartmentalizing?
It doesn't make sense.
And this is what I love about Lazar.
Lazar will admit that he's like, I think a lot of that stuff could have been fake and bullshit, and I only am relaying what I saw with regards to the craft, and I don't take any of that stuff fully at face value.
So there's Project Galileo, there's Looking Glass, you know, there are these projects that were super interesting and spooky and I think worthy of engagement with like all these weird limited hangouts are.
Do any of these people that supposedly had had contact with extraterrestrial entities or interdimensional or whatever they are, do any of these people recall a conversation where they warn us about AI?
we are now experimenting with computational biology.
You can use things like this neuroscientist, Carl Friston, the free energy prince.
There's this company called Cortical Labs, and I think they might play up some of their results, but they use these microelectrode plate arrays, and they program cultured rat neurons to do basic computational tasks.
And so that's the super base level, right?
We're just creating the transistors for this new model of computation.
Go way out into the future.
You have anatomical compilers, 3D printers of bodies, and these things could be drone avatars.
That's why when people are like, why do they crash?
This could be their Earth home.
They're just von Neumann replicator probes meant to, you know, oversee the Earth.
And, you know, a little node lights up when we create nuclear or like an AI thing.
Especially if you have some complex alloy, like this bismuth, whatever the hell it is, layered.
Find that.
Figure that out.
Can you make it?
You get your best scientist and you compartmentalize it.
You do it over decades because you really can't open it up.
And this is one of the things that Lazar said that he had deep frustration about while working at S4 is that you can't do science like that where everything's compartmentalized.
You need to be able to open it up to collaboration.
You couldn't collaborate.
You weren't allowed to.
So it's like, we're not going to get anywhere.
Okay, we're going to bring in new people.
We're going to bring in a new guy, see if this new genius can say, hey, what do you think of this?
That could be a part of what's happening with disclosure, where if you have Cold War era secrecy, it's like if we're ahead of Russia and China, clamp down.
We can't let them know anything.
But then all of a sudden, maybe they play catch-up.
And then all of a sudden, maybe you have this...
Archaic cargo cult system that doesn't work anymore to avoid foyer requests where you have restricted data covering you know Material found by a specific aerospace corporations that aren't even our best and brightest when it comes to our defense primes anymore or whatever And you're you're at the top of the national security pie and you're like, holy Like, we need to update this stuff.
So we need to broaden the surface area without giving away the crown jewels.
You have all these sort of rationalist ways of arguing that.
But also, look at, there's a great book called The Half-Life of Facts by Sam Arbisman.
And he talks about how, like, at any given time, 50% of...
So you can say those things are showing up in the sky.
That is wrong because physics.
But historically, you would have been wrong.
Like, that's crazy.
It's a bad point, right?
And so if you actually look at, you know, whether we're alone or not, modern enlightenment history is a detour from the past.
If you look at every culture, whether it's Iamblichus, or maybe a better example is medieval Christianity with St. Thomas Aquinas, or just read the New Testament.
Like, a multitude of angels.
You have angels and demons.
You know, that's kind of the passport to Magonia, Diana Bosolka, American cosmic thesis.
Like, this stuff has been going on forever.
You look at the devas in Hindu culture, or the jinn in Islamic culture.
Like, we are outnumbered in our modern, you know, enlightenment, rational skeptic.
I went on Chris Ramsey's podcast, I described it, and I was sent a video, and for all I know this video is fucking fake, by the way, but it was the thing that looked most like what I saw.
Because it doesn't match up with the saucer triangle thing.
Yeah, so another time, I was actually with a friend who, He's a fan of Noam Chomsky and David Hume.
He's a modern rationalist, atheist skeptic.
And we went surfing that day.
We were back at his place.
I was super into holotropic breathwork at the time, which I love.
And we were doing holotropic breathwork.
Five minutes in, we both see these metallic-looking orbs.
This time, super high up.
Like, probably, you know, higher than what you would, definitely way higher than a drone.
And one's bobbing above him, one's bobbing above me.
Similar to, like, the typical, like, orb that, you know, a lot of people sort of describe, like the Mosul orb or whatever, you know, a lot of these sightings.
And he looks at me and I go, like, what the fuck is that?
He goes, dude, I think that's like some secret black Lockheed tech or whatever.
And then I don't even say anything.
Two seconds goes by and then he looks at me and he goes, dude, that's not fucking from here.
There's a guy named Donald Hoffman, who's a cognitive psychologist, and he talks about, it's like, why don't we see electromagnetic?
Like, why aren't you seeing hertz frequencies?
We need to iconize everything we see, just like a desktop computer.
Like, why do you see red?
Because, oh, boom, red, blood, gotta run, you know, whatever.
and then they hack that with notifications on social media.
But the point is we are seeing inherently a collapse condensed version of reality.
We aren't seeing the thing itself.
And so it ends up in these ontological loops where like, yeah, some rationalist skeptic can be like, you're lying.
It ends up in this not even wrong category of like, I can't say that what I just said is definitively true as far as it being a window into some other realm.
But neither the skeptic, we just live in the age of disenchantment where you say, don't trust your eyes.
And that's as much faith-based dogma as what I'm saying.
So who knows?
And that's why I rest when I talk about this stuff on the show.
I rest more on the nuclear cases because it fits to our modern epistemology more.
Yeah, there might be multiple different types of things that come by.
And the nuclear one is a weird one.
I mean, if you were from another planet or some other place and you recognize an emerging civilization that had nuclear capabilities, you'd be like, hey, fuckers, slow down.
And I love going and seeing how UFO themed, like in preparation for this, I've had a couple of friends be like, I'm like, no, he's just frustrated with disclosure.
Because a lot of people are like, what the fuck are they blabbing about?
There are these very small mummified looking things that are in Peru that seem to look exactly like a similar kind of thing to a human being, but varies enough that you know it's not us.
And it has more ribs, it has more spinal columns, or more discs.
This is what they look like.
And there's x-rays of them, and that's where it gets really weird.
And so these were discovered in 2015 in a cave by a guy named Leandro, who goes by Mario.
And this is one of the headaches about the case, is like we don't have good provenance on it.
So he is this Wauquero, And they were found in ditomaceous earth.
So there's actually an idea that they might not even be mummies.
Ditomaceous earth is a desiccant.
And so they were dried out.
And a lot of the organs are actually still inside the bodies.
There are S-types, which are these little winged creatures.
There are J-types.
The J-types are probably, they were most popularized in this Mexican Congress where these things were outed in September of 2023, where they look like almost close encounters.
Jamie, if you scroll down, like you see that Peru's Congress, like right there.
Like, that thing looks like this, like, jokey, like, Close Encounters of the Third Kind.
Joe, fortunately and unfortunately, fortunately for you, maybe, but unfortunately for the case, these Waqueros, these gravediggers, are selling some of these things on the black market.
The NCBI, which is this biotech repository where you have a lot of this genetic information on two of the bodies, Victoria and Maria.
This is all publicly available.
They've done analysis on this.
The camp that is very pro, you know, these being alien, is this guy Jaime Masson.
And he is, I actually think he's awesome.
I love him.
He's like this former 60 Minutes guy in Mexico, and he's paid a lot of money to protect a lot of these bodies.
He's very open about, like, we just need more scientific research.
You know, he wants more eyes on this thing, but some of the genetics, uh, This guy's name is Dr. Ricardo Ron Hell.
And he's a biologist.
I don't think he's actually a geneticist.
And his belief is like, he was like, this is, you know, there's 30% of this is like unknown DNA that we don't know.
And then in the 70%, you have mitochondrial DNA from Myanmar.
And you also have bonobos and chimpanzee DNA, which means it was an ancient primate that held this DNA because it was before they phylogenetically split off.
So what he's saying, and this is crazy, is he was saying that like a...
And because there are some theories that they actually, you know, East Africa is not like the first hominid species.
Maybe it was East Asia.
So it's already like kind of requiring some leaps of logic or whatever.
And then had sex with this, like, primate thing.
And you end up with this hybrid.
And then another leap of logic is that before Pizarro and all the conquistadors, like, there's actually, like, transmission of...
I don't believe that.
It's crazy.
It's like saying that, you know, the pangolin theory is better than the, you know, the Wuhan lab leak theory, which is just like Occam's razor.
That's what's fascinating because there's this mystery of the Hobbit people, right?
Where they didn't really think that that was – there's a lot of – And then they realize, like, no, this is a specific branch of the human chain, just like Denisovan, just like Neanderthal.
Why this case is such a headache is like there's this guy Steve Mara who I think is a totally...
He's one of the less mushy-brained UFO researchers.
There's a lot of mushy-brained UFO researchers.
Really smart guy.
I've, like, quoted him a lot of my other videos.
And he's, like, we looked at one of the M-types, one of the bigger ones that, like, I'm still hooding out.
Hope for it.
I'd love it to be real.
And he said that he did genetic analysis on two of the phalanges and one came back male, one came back female.
But I'm like, how do you get by these forensic experts?
So it's this weird, it's just the DNA stuff, you don't get a good signal.
And the reason that nobody even cared, this is the most interesting paleoarchaeological case today, in my opinion.
The reason that people don't even care is because in 2023, when these were popularized by Jaime Masson, where he rolled out this J-type Josefina, the one that looked like kind of Close Encounters of the Third Kind, in front of the Mexican Congress.
This guy named Manuel Caceras, who is an artist who is making renditions of the things with like wood and sticks and stuff glued together.
He was apprehended at the airport by the chief Peru prosecutor, this guy named Flavio Estrada.
And there were Reuters pick this up saying this is all fake because of these fake.
And I have this in this documentary that I'm coming out with where he goes, this was art.
And if you find, if there is phenotypic inheritance where you find that the tridactyl being inside Montserrat's belly is also tridactyl, then at what point do you go, this is the, how can you hoax that?
So, and he's, Zalce, who by the way is the head of the Mexican Medical Navy, he was thrown in jail for supporting this case.
Because they were like, we don't want to be associated with this.
And now the new Secretary of the Navy in Mexico has brought him back.
And he's sort of being vindicated.
But he is like, I was like, Jose, like if you showed this CAT scan image of the baby tridactyl to any normal doctor, they didn't know anything about the case, would they say it had three fingers?
Because when things die, they don't really create fossils unless it's a very extraordinary instance.
Something unusual has to occur.
You've got to get trapped in mud.
Most of the things that have lived, we don't have fossils of.
Which is, if this thing was a small percentage or small population, small percentage of the living humans, and some of them are like that, and they just died off like 500 years ago, a thousand years ago.
So imagine if there's some break-off civilization where they lived, I mean, we're talking hundreds of thousands of years ago, but they're different than us.