Lex Fridman and Joe Rogan explore Genghis Khan’s empire, debunking rape myths while acknowledging 50–60 million wartime deaths, and contrast his meritocratic policies with modern leaders like Zelensky. Fridman shares his Ukraine-Russia ties, including Babi Yar’s Nazi massacre, and critiques three missed peace opportunities since 2022, praising Trump’s leverage over Biden’s failures. Rogan questions AI translations of Zelensky’s interviews, deepfake risks, and moon-landing conspiracies, while Fridman defends AI’s utility with human oversight. They pivot to extremism—Rogan calls "woke-ism" a "mind virus," Fridman warns of ideological replacements—before celebrating SpaceX’s 123-meter Starship launch as a beacon of American innovation amid global fragility. [Automatically generated summary]
But, you know, you want to be historically accurate here.
And Genghis Khan, there's a lot of different perspectives, including opening up trade and including what was the protocol based on which he was doing the murdering.
So it was very clear before the invasion, he always said, you can surrender and then we would not murder anybody.
You just have to follow the law.
And the law is very, very sort of clear, and it's basically enforcing a law of the land, so free trade, free practice of religion, and you have to pay taxes instead of to your king, you have to pay taxes to the Mongol Empire.
There's the kind of mass rape that the Soviet soldiers did at the end of World War II when they're marching towards Berlin, which is extremely violent, vicious, and sort of that kind of rape, which is part of the terror of war.
And then there's like creating a harem of women, right?
So it's a different...
I think the main point is that, you know, this is something you talk about, that a large percent of the population, as that one study from like 20 years ago, found are descendants of Genghis Khan.
I mean, they killed a million people in Jin China and turned their bones into a stack, a pile that they recognized as snow-covered mountains from the distance.
That's what they thought it was until they got up on it.
When the Shah of Chorisma came there to check it out, he's like, where is everybody?
They had abandoned the roads because there were so many dead bodies that the roads had deteriorated into muck.
I think there's military scholars that understand this really well.
I think, in general, the invading force loses more people than the defending force.
That's one aspect.
Of course, the Ukrainian military will say it's about the effectiveness of the Ukrainian military.
And also one of the other things they say is that the medical capabilities, so the medics are really strong on the Ukrainian side, which is also tragic because you're able to save lives, but you have the injuries, the pain of war, you know, that the veterans have to go through.
So they're able to save lives more effectively also.
But there is a big characteristic of the invading force usually loses more people.
Anyway, Tajikistan and I lived for a time in Kiev and I lived for a time in Moscow.
I have family in Ukraine.
I have family in Russia.
And so, and I should say in World War II. A lot of my family was slaughtered in Babi Yar, which is a ravine in Kiev, where they gather people around, the Nazis, and they just put them in this ravine and just shot them and put another layer of humans, told them to get naked and lay face down and slaughter and slaughter like this.
It's mass graves, mass slaughter.
And my grandfather fought the Nazis.
He's a machine gunner, which he's one of the few that survives, which is the reason I'm here, that they basically tried to hold off the Nazi armada.
And the surreal aspect of all of this is the same land.
I still remember the song 22nd of June.
At 4 a.m., the bombing of Kyiv began.
So this is in 1941, June 22nd.
Just imagine, speaking of Genghis Khan, complete surprise, just the Nazi armada, just coming, Operation Barbarossa, this massive military force invading your land.
It's Kiev, and there's the greatest, the biggest battles of all time were on this land.
The Battle of Kiev, the Battle of Stalingrad, the Battle of Moscow.
We're talking about hundreds of thousands, millions of people just slaughtering each other.
And the way Hitler, of course, approached the battle, and so does Stalin, is nobody surrenders.
It's, there's no, it's all in.
Slaughter.
It doesn't matter if it's winter.
It doesn't matter if there's no guns.
It doesn't matter.
It's just victory or death on both sides.
And so it's just brutal war.
So this is the land, right?
And I have, you know, for a lot of people in this land, this history is part of them.
It's part of their blood.
They remember these struggles.
They remember this.
This political, this geopolitical, this military, this social, this is real.
Imagine the United States living maybe a few decades after the Civil War.
You remember.
You have relatives that died.
You remember the real hatred, the real tensions, the real battles.
The point is, with Donald Trump, there's a real will and a momentum to make peace.
There's a respect, there's a fear, there's, you know, whatever you think about Donald Trump, he is this person that world leaders respect in the full meaning of the word respect.
Not like admire, but fear.
I think both Zelensky and Putin fear Donald Trump.
And that's a great person to then make peace because he has the leverage.
All of them believe, Putin and Zelensky, that Trump can do some crazy shit.
And it's a war that's so confusing over here, especially to the uninitiated, for the people that are just kind of reading the newspaper and getting a sort of a cursory understanding of what happened.
Russia invaded.
Why?
You know, what'd they do?
And then you've got to get into the whole...
U.S.-backed coup in 2014, and then you have to think about NATO and the agreement that was made the fall of, you know, when the wall came down in Berlin, the agreement that NATO would not push forth and move closer to Russia, which they violated over and over and over again.
The whole thing is so complicated that It takes forever just to sort of get an understanding of the pieces that are involved.
Forget about who's responsible for what, but just like how many different things are happening, you know, simultaneously that are forcing Putin's hand, now Zelensky's hand.
And just to be on this side of the world watching it take place, it's almost unbelievable.
It's so hard to believe that Russia and Ukraine, which were both a part of the Soviet Union, Just not that long ago.
And more importantly, if you want in this war for the death to end.
One of the things I kept pushing in an almost childlike way with Zelensky is getting him to open himself up for peace.
Because he kept shutting it down.
He kept mocking Putin.
He kept criticizing Putin.
Which is okay.
It's okay to sort of criticize and say that there's war crimes, that there's real vicious violence and destruction happening.
But along that, there has to be a door open of respect, of I'm willing to come to the table to negotiate and respect the other nation's interests, as opposed to saying I'm only going to talk to the United States.
You have to be open to negotiate.
Unfortunately, this is the motherfucker of peace.
You have to compromise.
You have to sit across the table as a world leader with a person you might fucking hate.
Because unlike Putin, I should say, Zelensky goes to the front.
He talks to the soldiers.
He sees the dead bodies.
He talks to the civilians, the mothers that lost their children, the wives that lost their husband, right?
This person who's an empath, who's an emotional being, he's wearing all that in his mind.
There's a real pain there.
He's tortured, tormented by this.
If you're a leader, you have to put all that aside.
And you have to sit and save your nation by compromising.
That's it.
And that's the hard thing of it.
Especially now there's an opportunity where the Trump figure rolls in who wants to make peace.
So Zelensky comes down, they've been meeting with Zelensky, but there is no meeting with Putin.
I think the right thing to do is to go to, whether it's Switzerland or Turkey, Istanbul or Minsk.
The biggest thing for me would be literally the three of them sit together.
I think I trust in Trump's negotiation ability and the carrot and the stick of the United States military and the United States economy for being able to control oil prices, being able to control trade with tariffs, being able to threaten.
Military force and funding and so on, plus sanctions, all of this.
You can roll in with that carrot and stick, implied or made implicit or explicit, and just sit at the table and talk like human beings and show each other respect.
That, you know, is one of the things that actually COVID did.
There's something that happens where remote communication just is not it.
Like, the silly thing about this podcast being in person, right?
There's a real power there.
Everything else is, you know, like fucking with a condom.
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I mean, you never know who the leaders are that step up.
I think a lot of people sort of say that it's trivial that he stayed in Kiev when the Russian military invaded.
To me, it's not trivial at all.
I think that's a truly heroic act to stay when you know...
When nobody knows what's going to happen and all the experts are saying Kiev is going to be taken.
To stay as a leader in that same place where you were the night before, like working, and not flee when everybody, the CIA, everybody's telling you to flee.
To stay there like a bad motherfucker and actually go outside and film yourself speaking to the nation that we're going to win this.
We're going to hold strong.
That's an insane thing to do.
And maybe it does require, like, it's a Trump-level insanity, right?
It's similar to me to the Trump standing up when there's still bullets flying and saying, fight, fight, fight.
Where does that come from?
I don't know.
But most people don't have that.
It's nice.
It was refreshing.
It was refreshing when you see that.
Like, holy fuck, yes.
We want that guy.
And he really united a nation.
The nation was fracturing.
He was actually not popular at all up to that war because the policies he was trying were not working.
The reality of corruption in Ukraine is it should be dealt with after you make peace.
All the problems, the elections were suspended to, the ideas of democracy.
There is censorship in Ukraine now.
All of those ideas.
All of those things cannot be fixed until the war has ended.
The reason there is censorship now in Ukraine is because it's a war.
The ideas of democracy, in part, have to be suspended during a war to effectively fight that war.
This is a whole idea of martial law.
The United States has this.
You don't fuck around.
You have to win the war.
When your land is invaded, everybody has to be focused on this.
The problem is it's a slippery slope.
When all the media channels are being controlled and the president and everybody is so invested in, quote-unquote, winning the war, then where are the critical voices that say we need peace?
They're coming from the outside, but you need that.
The thing is...
It's a really complicated tension.
During the war with martial law, you do want to suspend elections, potentially.
It's a really difficult trade-off.
The United States has the same thing.
If we were to be invaded, I don't know by who, this is not Canada.
I don't want to make a joke out of this, but there's going to be a...
A quick fight?
Yeah, exactly.
There would be a martial law where elections would be delayed or suspended and so on.
So all those criticisms, all those concerns can only be dealt with once you make peace.
And in terms of corruption, there's a lot of people that know Zelensky well, and this has been my impression.
Having met him, I don't think he, and I've not heard anybody that knows him well say that he's personally corrupt.
This is really important.
He himself is not personally corrupt, and he legitimately is fighting corruption.
Now, he's in a system that has corruption.
Russia has corruption.
It's really difficult to weed out corruption.
But he legitimately...
At least to me, that's really important that he, as a single human being, and the people really close around him, like really close.
Corruption starts to seep in, of course, when you go further out.
But in that direct human being, he is not personally corrupt.
Financially speaking, he singularly believes in the idea of Ukraine as a sovereign nation, and he's willing to die for that idea.
That is his strength, and that is also his weakness, when it's time to make peace.
When you are preparing to do something like this, and you are, you know, you're doing your research, you're getting ready to go do it, what are your concerns, other than your own physical safety, of course?
But like, what is your...
Like, ultimately, what's your concerns?
What are your goals when you're setting out to do this?
Because this is very different than any other kind of podcast interview.
There's no other format, really, where a world leader in the middle of a huge international conflict is going to sit down for three hours and talk to an American scientist.
Which is weird too, right?
It's like, why are you doing it?
You know what I mean?
This guy who works in AI just decides he's going to start a podcast.
The podcast becomes very successful.
And all of a sudden he's like, I'd like to talk to everybody.
I'd like to go over and talk to Zelensky and talk to Putin.
And everybody's like, why you?
What the fuck are you doing?
So you get a lot of that, and then unfortunately for you, you read the comments, so you get sucked into all that negativity.
But there's an enormous element of that that's real.
Whether it's bots or whether it's hired people, paid propagandists, the conversation is not a pure conversation between people expressing their ideas.
There's a lot of propaganda online and it's very confusing to try to discern what the percentage is.
You know, we've talked about this a bunch of times on the podcast, but there was a former FBI analyst who estimated that it's on Twitter alone.
This is before the purchase.
He believed it was around 80%.
So 80% fake accounts.
80% not just propaganda, like government propaganda, but most certainly corporations are hiring people to do similar things.
I'm sure there's companies that will do that for public figures, actors, people that are involved in conflict.
This is part of the Blake Lively dispute.
She's accusing that Justin Baldoni actor of an organized attack on her, which is probably what it feels like anyway when you're involved in something on social media, like, oh my god, this is organized, or they're attacking you.
But it's a very confusing landscape.
Ideally, what we would want with social media is...
Different people, informed and uninformed, but at least expressing their ideas on things and exchanging information back and forth and talking.
It's not the whole story, though.
There's a lot of other players involved that are not real.
There's AI, for sure.
There's definitely large language models that are involved in this back and forth with...
You know, automation and, you know, they look out for certain code words and these accounts attack certain ideas.
So it's hard to know, like, what the actual will of the people is.
So they must have some sort of a system where they weed out bots.
There's a lot of concern right now on Twitter about censorship.
I try to stay out of Twitter as much as I can, honestly, because I think it's bad for your mental health.
I really do.
I think people just...
Barking at each other all day is not good to absorb.
I want to absorb real people that I interact with.
I mean, I try to pay attention to the news.
I try to pay attention to whatever controversial ideas are out there and try to see what I think.
But I don't think it's good to dive in to social media all day.
I think it's uniquely bad.
And I think so many people are involved in it, and they don't realize that they're poisoning their brain, just like they would poison their body if they were eating junk food all day.
Yeah, I mean, and you and I, and also in a particular, you know, doing a podcast, and we're also very different human beings.
I would say your psychological fortitude is pretty strong.
And I'm more...
I wear my heart on my sleeve maybe a little bit more, and what if I, like, shit gets to me.
And, you know, when you try to put compassion out there in the world in the way I did, especially with this conversation with Zelensky, the attacks, like...
I don't think it's possible with this journey that we're on as these meat vehicles, these soul-carrying meat vehicles navigating a very confusing world.
I don't think it's possible to be perfect.
You can have a desire to be a good person, and some people don't have that.
And the excuse that they always use is...
I mean, this is the Donald Trump excuse.
You do anything you can to stop Hitler, you know?
Right?
And this is why they want to conflate, and they always want to...
Pretend that everyone's Hitler.
The problem with that is that just after a while, it's crying wolf and people like, oh, this is a bullshit game you're playing and you're just using it as an excuse.
Elon's talked about this a lot about, and he's absolutely correct, is that people use woke ideology as an excuse to be an asshole.
And it's really just people that are assholes that are attaching themselves to things that make them feel righteous.
To give them virtue and to allow them to say the most awful things about other people that have different perspectives and then just by nature, if you're doing that, you're doing the wrong thing.
You're a bad person.
You can justify it all you want.
You can find people that agree with you all you want.
But those people are also on the wrong track.
The people that are listening to you and agreeing with you, they're on the wrong track.
They're the wrong track if we want to be collectively a kind, compassionate, cohesive society, a community of human beings that all live together.
That's totally possible.
If you can do it in small groups of people, you can do it in enormous groups of people.
It just has to be an ethic that gets promoted.
It has to be something that you see people that you admire adhere to, and you do it as well.
Whenever someone goes outside of that, and whenever someone starts making horrific, unfounded personal attacks because someone has a different political ideology or...
You know, just going after them every day, all day long.
Like, you're just broken.
You're on the wrong path, period.
And intelligent, aware people that have control of their emotions recognize that, and they're not going to take your perspective seriously.
So you're going to be less and less effective with what you do.
Whether it's the line in geography, Russians, Putin is evil.
Or if it's Trump, Trump is evil.
Right.
The version of that is Hitler.
So I'm a big proponent of Solzhenitsyn's famous, the author of Gulag Archipelago, that the line between good and evil runs to the heart of every man, that all of us have that in us.
Yes.
It is good to be humbled by that reality.
And if you are humbled by that reality, then you're not going to see any other people as purely evil or purely good.
All of that kind of thing is used to just hate others.
You know, even like I'm watching the Pete Hegseth, the confirmation hearings, and they...
These ignorant people are going after his tattoo, not even knowing what the tattoo is, and trying to pretend that it's some sort of radical, hateful tattoo when it's just an ancient Christian tattoo.
It's so strange.
I mean, that tattoo's in churches.
That symbol's in churches.
That symbol's been around for a long fucking time.
It's just a Christian tattoo.
And I was watching the Piers Morgan show and Piers Morgan had Michael Knowles and these two super wack and Dave Rubin and two super wacky leftist people that didn't know what the tattoo was and they were criticizing it and Piers Morgan kept asking, what is the tattoo?
What is it?
Tell me what it is.
And the guy would go, you're not answering the question.
Go back to it.
What is it?
Well, let's look it up.
He's like, no, no, no, no.
Don't look it up.
I want you to tell me if you're saying it's offensive.
And so then the woman chimes in and Michael Knowles just clowns her, just absolutely knows the history of the tattoo, including like, you know, she's talking about it before it existed before Islam, you know, and she's criticizing what it is.
And he's like, do you understand that?
Islam didn't exist when this tattoo, when this symbol existed.
Like, it's not an anti-Muslim symbol because there was no Muslims when this symbol was created.
Like, this is bonkers.
And they're all in, digging their heels in, pretending, just trying to win this conversation.
Just trying to win.
And Pierce Morgan's doing that.
He's like the Jerry Springer of political ideology now.
He just has people get on the show and yell at each other.
It's very entertaining, and he gets great soundbites out of it.
It's kind of genius in terms of an engagement perspective.
If you looked at your show as just like, how do I get more engagement?
Well, that's how you do it.
You get some wacky leftists going to say nutty things.
You get some right-wing person that's going to say nutty.
Yeah, but see, what I don't like about that is that guy is floundering, but there could be actually facets to that person outside of this ridiculousness.
If you want to be the guy who's on television talking about important issues, and you've got this stupid thing in your head where you're arguing about a tattoo that you don't even understand, you've got to cleanse that stupidity out of your fucking mind.
Sometimes the best way to do that is to get clowned on television.
So you got exposed, she got exposed, they both look like morons, and then Michael Nolas, who...
Did a fantastic job of like smiling, never raising his voice, calmly explaining it.
This is the thing that bothers me about comments, is I don't read them, but, like, I don't know, my mom will read them, and she'll text me something like, don't listen to what people say.
You could accuse Pete of as being too alert and energetic.
I found it overwhelming, actually, while I was there, tired, trying to dust the sand out of my eyes.
But you suggest that the graduate of Princeton and Harvard, who for decades has been in the U.S. military, served his country honorably, that he's somehow unqualified to work at the Pentagon.
The most egregious accusation you make against him, though, is that he's an extremist because he has a tattoo.
The tattoo in question is called a Jerusalem cross.
This is a medieval Christian symbol that goes back a long time.
In fact, at Jimmy Carter's funeral, there was a Jerusalem cross on the floor of the cathedral and on the program for the funeral.
There's one other tattoo that some have suggested could be extremist.
It's the phrase deus volt, which is a medieval Christian slogan, a long traditional slogan that refers to God's will, and it goes back a long way.
These are very traditional, very mainstream Christian symbols that not only are not extreme in any way, but which even the people who want to accuse him of extremism couldn't possibly name.
I'll tell you what, before you answer, I know you said in your sub stack about this, under normal circumstances, he, Pete Hexteth, would be precluded from serving...
Let me go back to something that was said in the very beginning, that he spent more than 10 years at Fox News, and that's what qualifies him to be in this position that he wants to be in.
I spent more than 10 years at Fox News.
I don't think I'm qualified to run the DoD whatsoever based on my time at Fox News.
If I were not bound by an NDA and if Fox News wanted to release me from that NDA, I could tell you about my time with Pete Hexeth.
Unfortunately, that's not possible.
But I will say that the reason that there are so many people who anonymously came forward at Fox News is that because they're also bound by confidentiality provisions, which one-third of all American workers need to sign on their first day of work.
And if they were to go public, they could get sued.
The reason this accuser is not heard from is because, according to The New Yorker, She tried desperately to meet with Joni Ernst on the committee, and Joni Ernst turned her down.
So the reason that she has not been able to come out publicly is because she has an NDA, and even privately, she could not meet with a senator on this committee who is also a rape survivor to share her story, because that rape survivor did not want to hear from a woman who was going to put her potentially in a position to vote against Pete Hexeth.
Peter Hexeth has written himself while at Princeton saying that women who are passed out, if you have sex with them while they're unconscious, that's not really rape.
So I don't know which soldiers you've been talking to who think Pete Hexeth is a great thing for the military.
There's not one woman out there who cares about being assaulted on deployment, who thinks that this is the person that needs to be in charge of the United States military.
And as for the cross that you talked about, yes, Deus Vult, which is the cross that he has, and the slogan that he has, is an old Christian cross.
The phrase, excuse me, the phrase.
The phrase, however, was uttered by Crusaders as they were slaughtering Jews and Muslims during the Second Crusade specifically.
I cannot even believe that something the Vatican apologized for is something you're defending, which is the slaughter of Jews and Muslims during the Crusades.
Why don't you give me a call after this, and I will walk you through exactly what the Vatican apologized for when it came to the treatment of Muslims during the Crusades.
Bemusing yet mandatory orientation program revolved entirely around whether in an instance of sexual intercourse constituted rape, the actual instance portrayed in the skit was in fact...
Oh, it was a skit?
In fact, not a clear case of rape, at least not in my home state.
So this is Hexis saying this.
In short, though intercourse was not consented to, there was no duress because the girl drank herself into unconsciousness.
Both criteria must be satisfied for rape.
Unfortunately, the panelists never cited any legal definition of rape.
Yet the panel, all females in the session I attended, claimed that rape it was.
Huh.
What year was this?
So are they talking about, this is what's confusing, are they talking, it says a skit, and then it says they're talking about a legal definition of rape?
Has the legal definition changed over the years?
Like, when was this?
Is he talking about a legal definition or is he talking about his own opinion?
Right, there's a giant difference between the two of them, right?
Especially if you take it something out of context, you don't know if he elaborated.
Article for his college newspaper saying that having sex with unconscious women isn't rape because the criteria for rape isn't met.
2000-ish, I remember when we were doing the podcast, there was a brief moment of time where people were talking about if a man had sex with a woman and they had both been drinking, that it was rape.
That the woman could not consent because she was drunk.
But the man's drunk too.
So it gets weird.
We understand traditionally men are pursuing women.
And that plying someone with alcohol is...
A famous thing that people do.
It's kind of a weird legal thing.
Come on, one more drink, have another drink, have another drink.
And we all know that when people get drunk, they do stupid shit.
But we don't know what happened if you're both drunk.
You know, so this is what I'm getting at is that 2000, these conversations are already being had.
The question is like, is he saying this from his personal perspective?
Or is he saying it from a legal perspective?
I don't know what else was in the text.
You know, I'm trying to be as charitable as possible.
Because if, like, Moore was in the, like, that's a reprehensible act, that's, like, did he say anything like that?
Or was it just specifically talking about the legal definition?
But that right there is crazy, because my opinion of him shifted briefly when I was...
You know, I was watching Daniel Negreanu, you know, the great poker player, was on Tim Pool's show.
And they were talking about his shift in political ideologies, and then a lot of it came from...
When they were accusing Trump of saying that thing that Obama repeated falsely during the campaign was that he was talking about white nationalists and neo-Nazis and saying there's very fine people on both sides.
And Negrano had heard that.
He had heard the clip where Trump said it, where it was edited.
He had never seen the full thing.
And then once he saw the full thing, he was like, what the fuck?
And it immediately made him realize, oh, my God, they're lying.
They're lying.
And then he talked about how Obama repeated.
This is years after Daniel had known it was false.
Obama repeating it at the campaign speeches.
And then Obama's sitting right next to Trump and they're joking around with each other.
Hey, pal, I know you're a neo-Nazi lover.
You fucking rascal.
I had you win.
But just what that lady did on that show, and then when we find out that Hegseth didn't actually write that, he just published it.
You know, and he published it in college as a 20-year-old or whatever he was.
There's strength in saying, I was uninformed or I was misinformed.
I fucked up.
I've said it before.
It's important to do.
You've got to do it.
Because you can't have an erroneous idea in your head and repeat it over and over again.
You can't have an incorrect, false opinion that you have defended and now you can't ever accept, even with new information that shows that it's not true.
They had the ability to hang off the side of the horse so they would shoot from under the horse's neck.
So they were completely defended by the horse and they were shooting arrows.
And their bows were 160 pounds.
So you had to be insane.
They said that a lot of the skeletons they find from that era, their bones are deformed.
Because your whole body has just been pulling a hundred and sixty pounds with your right arm or your left arm like your whole life so your right side is like Insanely muscled and your bones are all twisted and thicker and denser tendons and everything because they've been doing that since they were children They were an insanely formidable army Insanely formidable.
But here's something to take into consideration when we're saying about how Genghis Khan's genes were spread.
Just right off the bat, it's all awful.
All horrible.
I wish no one ever got killed by anybody ever.
It's all awful.
All war is hell.
All of it.
All is hell.
There was so much of it going on throughout human history that women There was a survival mechanism in accepting this conqueror as your new husband when he slaughtered your husband.
It's the only way your genes passed on.
So these women were able, even if they said they fell in love with him, even if they did marry him, even if they were happy to marry him, there was...
Like almost an evolutionary requirement because we slaughtered each other so much that if you wanted your genes to pass on, you had to accept the slaughter of your former mate.
Rape as part of war as part of a mechanism of terror I think even as just part of society up until like a few thousand years ago or even a few hundred years ago, I think human beings you know like I've had a bunch of friends who've served overseas and the stories they tell from Afghanistan especially with the child raping fucking bone curdling like you blood curdling You just want to leave the room when
they're talking.
You don't even want to hear this.
You don't want to think that this is happening.
And it's happening right now.
Because it's an old culture.
It's an old culture.
And it's separate from the rest of the world.
It's very remote.
Very difficult to access.
You have warlords and herders who are living in these nomadic tribes to this day.
Not much different than when Alexander the Great conquered it.
The origin story of Genghis Khan is like the love of his life who was married to him for his whole life that he proposed or he said, we're going to marry at nine years old.
She was kidnapped.
And he had to raise an army in order to rescue her back.
That was the split in the road.
He would have been a normal Mongol, but here he has to raise an army to rescue her back.
On the Silk Road, you're going to get slaughtered.
It's not like there's going to be a process.
You get slaughtered.
In fact, one of the reasons, I hesitate to say this because people are projecting to the future, but he took Kiev and slaughtered people because they broke the rule of, I forget the term for this, but the people that are sent out to communicate.
The early days of the podcast, that was the only sponsor we had.
So it's like, you know, this is, again, you reacting to criticism, right?
So it's like the fear of the criticism of you yourself knowing you could have done a better job of explaining that had you prepared something, which is really the difference between off-the-cuff conversations and like...
Your actual well-considered thoughts on things expressed in the best way possible, which is what you would do if you're going to write it out, if you're going to write a Substack piece about it.
Well, one of the things I'm trying to do for myself personally, I think a lot of people have to do this, young kids have to do this, is figure out how to create a psychological framework where I'm not affected by the internet.
It sounds like ridiculous to say, but you say don't read the comments, but they come at you.
I don't think it's healthy for you, because I think, first of all, I've said this before, I'm only kind of joking, but I'm kind of serious.
Most people commenting are losers.
Sorry.
If you're doing it all the time, and you're doing it in a negative way all the time, this is not everybody.
There's a lot of really well-thought-out commentary on YouTube videos that I see, if occasionally I'll read someone's Instagram page, and I'll read my friends' comments.
Some people are brilliant.
Don't get me wrong.
It is a haven for fuckheads.
It's a place where people can go and just try to insult people and say the most negative thing possible.
And they generally, I think, there's generally a lot of, like, dull-minded people that gravitate towards the negativity.
You know where that differs is Christians, which is interesting.
Like, a lot of, like...
Low-wattage Christians are still super nice.
And they'll just praise Jesus and look for forgiveness.
The real ones, right?
Which is a great thing that we should all aspire to.
What you're supposed to do, if you really follow Jesus' teaching, is be completely non-violent and be a beautiful person and love everybody like it's your brother.
That's what he wants.
And if you follow that.
There's just too many assholes and too many disgruntled people out there that have terrible lives.
You know, the most men lead lives of quiet desperation, the Thoreau line that I fucking love so dearly.
It's such a great line.
That's so true and maybe even more true today because of the unnatural world in which we're thrust in.
So not only are people doing things that they hate most of the time, but they're also engaging.
With their phone more than they are with people.
So they're engaging in this very bizarre, non-physical way that is detached from any human interaction, detached from emotions, eye contact, the feel of being with someone, the back and forth of a conversation between two people.
Like if you and I were going to disagree about something, if there was like some political thing or some social thing that you and I disagreed about, we could sit And just, I want to know why you think the way you think.
Like, I want to know.
Like, if you think a thing and I disagree with it, the first thing I want to know is, and this is not something I always had.
I got way better at this in my life as I've gotten older and had more conversations with people.
You got to, like, absolutely know what this person thinks.
Don't, like, attack it.
Don't twist it around.
Don't distort it.
You have to kind of steel man it.
You have to be as charitable to that position as possible.
And then occasionally, when you find things that you disagree with, you have to stop and you have to say, okay, here's my problem with this.
And it has to be done in good faith.
You have to be doing it not to win.
You have to be doing it to figure out what's right.
And everybody's so fucking attached to their opinions and their ideology that...
Most of the time, most conversations are had where one person, at least on social media, one person is trying to win.
I think if you just looked at the natural progression of human beings and what we're talking about with quantum computing and AI and the technological innovations that are...
Without doubt gonna hit us like a tsunami over the next 20 years 30 years whatever it is we What are we gonna become?
We're gonna become what they are the same kind of thing and if there was a planet that had something like us That's emerging and just figuring out how to split the atom and you know and still involved in tribal warfare A primate that's still involved with tribal warfare but now has nuclear bombs.
That's us.
Also dick pics.
Also OnlyFans.
Also just massive social media addicts all over the entire planet while we're engaging in tribal warfare with hypersonic weapons.
So they would be studying us the same way we're studying these folks.
Same thing, you know?
When we find out a guy got hit with a spear, like, oh, fuck, what happened?
These people are crazy.
Like, you gotta be careful.
Like, when Paul was saying that they were there and they realized that the tribe was close, like they were starting to hear things, and they realized they were probably being hunted, and they just got the fuck out of there as quick as they could, that's terrifying.
I do not want to wake up to news on my feed that Paul Rosalie got killed by an uncontacted tribe.
So we were talking about it on the podcast multiple times because I had read that, that they had a higher pain threshold.
I'm like, that's weird.
I wonder why.
Well, because everybody's been fucking with gingers forever.
They've been beating their ass.
They're like an MMA guy who's got two older brothers.
They can take it.
The scariest MMA fighters have older brothers who used to beat them up.
Because they're ready to fucking throw down all the time.
Like the scariest guys or abusive stepdad.
Those two.
That makes a scary guy.
Or abusive father.
The guys that I know that are the fucking scariest, they had abusive dads.
They had people that beat them up when they were young.
They just get fucking used to going, just ready to go.
They don't have a fear of going, they want to go.
They want to go all the time.
Let's fucking go.
Like, they've just been, that's the only way to survive.
If you're a kid, and you have a brother who's four years old, and your dad is a raging alcoholic, and he beats your mom in front of you, and your brother beats your ass too.
I mean, you have to have a very exceptional father who recognizes the requirements that this kid is going to go through if you're fucking Genghis Khan's son.
And meanwhile, you're also running an empire.
Like, raising kids is...
It is a very involving thing.
And it's a nuanced thing.
And you have to know which ones to push and which ones to just let them be themselves, which ones to support, which ones to encourage, and how to encourage and how to...
How to instill discipline, how to show them how important it is to feel the pain of loss and to feel like failure and to understand that this doesn't make you a bad person.
These are just the lessons of life and the energy that comes with doing something well and throwing yourself into something and finding success versus half-assing your existence and feeling filled with misery and regret.
And that's a difficult thing when you're sleeping on silk sheets.
You know, that was like what Marvin Hagley used to talk about.
Like, you know, it's hard to get up in the morning and run when you're sleeping in silk sheets.
He was talking about the pull of as you become successful, boxers get softer.
And it's because they start getting rich.
You know, and then, you know, just chill a little bit.
Well, if you have a son then, and the son's growing up rich, and you're chill, like, fuck, man.
Like, you want to make a conqueror?
You want to make a champion fighter?
Rough childhood.
I don't think you should do it.
Definitely shouldn't be mean to your kid, just so that they can be a badass fighter.
Mitzi sure used to ignore Pauly just to make him funnier.
She talked about it.
She talked about ignoring him when he was crying.
It'll make him funny.
She was right.
She knew what she was doing.
But it's like, to do that, if you're a conqueror, and you came up from shooting your brother with a bow and arrow, and then raising an army to take back your wife, and then you have children, and your children are born when you're 40, you know, and you've got this insane empire that's like one of the most Spectacular and impressive military accomplishments.
If you just look at it in terms of just like the sheer numbers of human beings they sent into the reincarnation cycle.
It's a crazy number, man.
They killed somewhere between, I think the estimates are 50 to 60 million people.
Over the course of his lifetime, 10% of the population of Earth.
Yes, in terms of, for example, you've seen a lot of people die, children die, and if you've seen enough, the idea of quote-unquote peace is a dirty word.
Isn't that a problem right now, not just in Ukraine, but also in Gaza?
This is the thing that...
The sheer number of people that died that had nothing to do with it is crazy.
It's crazy.
I think the most recent estimate, and they don't even know because there's so many people that are under rubble, the most recent estimate was somewhere north of 60,000 people.
And how many of them are kids?
Like, what's the number of kids that have been killed by missiles that had done nothing wrong?
Like, what's that number?
And those kids have families.
And those kids have mothers and brothers and sisters and some people that lived and some people that died.
And whoever makes it out of that, you want to radicalize somebody.
You want to radicalize somebody to just want nothing but revenge.
The whole thing's horrible, from top to bottom, including all the people that have decided what happened, people that are saying it was definitely a false flag.
I mean, you definitely need to look at the incentives there.
That is one of the concerns in Ukraine for President Zelensky.
The prospects of ending the war.
Because right now the country is unified.
If you end the war and you have elections, now you have to face a lot of the consequences internally about the potential discovery of corruption, about the suspension of democracy, about all these things.
And the same thing with Netanyahu, who, by the way, also, they want to do a three-hour podcast with me.
I talked to him before October 7th for an hour.
I regret talking to him for an hour.
One of the things I really...
Learned a lot from you and just from myself.
You can't do...
One of the things I really don't like what happened with me talking to Donald Trump is like 40 minutes with Donald Trump.
I just wanted to get I wanted to get loose I don't the problem is like I want to see how you are as a real person I think actually genuinely with you and Kamala Harris, I think 45 minutes is horrible, but I think you're so skilled and like Compassionate just like it's fun fun to talk to you.
I think you would just end up being much much longer That's that's the hope if that's the hope yeah There would be questions, though, and some questions would be very complicated, like the immigration question.
Like, I would say, what's happening?
Like, what is happening?
Do you think that there should be limitations to this?
Do you think it should be stopped outright?
Do you think we should round up all the people that we know that are terrorists that made it across?
Are we keeping track of them?
Do we know how many?
Do we know what happened?
Do we know why it happened?
Why are people opposed to the idea of cracking down on Border Patrol, making more soldiers available, putting walls up everywhere?
Like, what is the reason to not do this?
Like, tell me what you're thinking.
And when people start talking about labor, they're talking about bringing in labor and that our population is lower.
Like, Chuck Schumer brought that up.
He talked about, like, we need workers.
And I'm like, what are we saying?
Is that really what the problem is?
That Americans aren't willing to do jobs and you want to bring in illegal people?
How about just make legal immigration easier for poor people that are trying to get over here?
How about just scan them, screen them, make sure that they're not fucking murderers, make sure they're not cartel members, and then let them in easier?
Like, wouldn't that be a better way to do it, to vet people?
But the idea of not vetting people just doesn't make any sense at all.
That would have been a problem.
That conversation would have been a problem because it doesn't make any sense at all.
And I'm a grandchild of immigrants.
I believe in immigration.
I think America is the fucking shining light in the world.
Like, if you can get here, you can actually make something happen.
There's not a caste system.
They actually reward people from, you know, started from the bottom, now we're here.
At what point in time do we not say, how far do we have to slip down the list?
of like the best performing students in the world before someone comes along and says hey the whole thing about this place is if our kids are losers they're gonna grow up to become loser adults make it way easier to be a winner What's the best way to do that?
Have a way better education system.
Just imagine if they completely revamped the education system in this country, just poured a shitload of money and had the wisest minds come up with a brilliant strategy for more creative ways of approaching learning, pushing people into viable pathways that maybe didn't even exist when the education system was structured.
Because things have changed so much in the world.
You could probably do a Way better job than we're doing, which would make people come out of that, they would emerge better qualified people.
So we would get more shit done in America.
So America would prosper overall.
The GDP would grow.
Everything would be better.
You'd have less poverty.
That's where they need to start.
It's not just let in all the immigrants.
How about fix what we got here and then expand that outward?
Like, make this place the best it can be and then expand that idea out to the rest of the world.
So instead of, like, letting everybody walk here from third world countries, because third world countries suck, expand what's better out to the rest of the world.
And a big part of that is actually culturally changing.
Accepting, celebrating, venerating meritocracy.
Yes.
The guy in the class, having gone to school in the Soviet Union, I was good at math, and I was actually, believe it or not, super cool.
Because I was good at math in class when I was like whoa like I was the cool kid because I was good at math like I was getting like in America I had a girlfriend when I was young.
Even Feynman, for the people that knew him, he was a cultural figure.
He wasn't an obscure name.
If you brought up Richard Feynman, most people that watch the news and read newspapers probably know who he is if they were in their 30s.
That's not the case today for, say, someone who's groundbreaking research with AI or someone who's involved in quantum computing.
It's just a few of these science communicators.
Brian Cox, guys like him were great at it in terms of space.
And some guys are better at it in terms of talking about AI or talking about all the different emerging technologies because there's so many of them.
But there's no one person other than Elon.
But Elon's such a d***.
Unique character you can't even like you can't put him in the same categories in Einstein because he's just like a cultural weirdness Like who is this guy like making memes?
Cracking jokes dunking on people telling people to go fuck themselves buys Twitter You know it runs a bunch of different companies simultaneously while playing video games constantly.
It's like That doesn't fit in anywhere else.
That's like a very unique Thing that exists this Elon Musk guy like he's one of the most unique human beings in all of history But you can even move to like even the Jeff Bezos who by the way successfully launched the first Rocket yesterday to orbit yeah,
which is which is incredible amazing even he is gets like I think that's that should be That that should be venerated sure, but he's not the guy that's making the He's not doing the calculations and designing and engineering the machines like Werner Von Braun was.
So it's like what we're fascinated by today is different.
We're fascinated by these public figures that talk about the work that's going on, but the people that are actually doing it, there's not one standout.
So was that a deal where they get a famous streamer, and they say, hey, we're going to give you money to come over to this new platform, and then they try to start the platform?
The closest thing it's to is, like, TikTok on the video.
The short video.
Clips is good.
So I can see, actually, I'm buying TikTok.
It makes total sense and integrating it into X. But in terms of long-form content, it's just not quite there because you have to implement all of these features.
And it is, engineering-wise, really difficult to have that much video.
And he and I did the asshole thing, which is we kept switching languages sentence to sentence.
Oh, no.
And he would swear in Russian mid-sentence.
So, of course, the translator is sweating because most of the sentence is Ukrainian.
And then he says, fuck, or go fuck yourself.
He swore a lot.
That part would be in Russian.
The swear.
So you have to catch all of that.
You have to not make mistakes.
And some of it, there was AI in the loop.
We had to figure out because nobody really has done this kind of thing before.
So we had to figure it all out.
And mistakes can be made when you're rushing like this.
Rushing like this.
Like I just did.
By the way...
Me saying that could be transcribed into me saying Russian.
Right, right, right.
So, for example, we said he was talking about corruption, sensitive topic.
He said something like, anybody who we caught doing something with the weapons or being corrupt, we would beat, the exact term is beat them on the hands.
He was speaking Ukrainian, which in Ukrainian means we'll crack down on them.
That was automatically translated to slap them on the wrist.
Yes, and the, I don't want to sort of put it on them, but the President Zelensky's office was...
Asking, like, as soon as possible.
They were really pushing it, and they were implying, probably correctly, that there's just going to be a lot of dynamic stuff happening on the peace negotiations.
So he wanted to use this as a statement.
Because, you know, the Kremlin watched it, so everybody's watching it.
And, like, it's part of the puzzle pieces that they're using to figure out when we're going to meet.
When are we going to?
What are going to be the outlines of a treaty?
You have to take it very seriously.
I've learned a lot because you need to probably hire more and trust everybody involved and turn it around much quicker.
You know me, in terms of production and everything, the team is one person.
Folks helping with editing, but it's just a tiny team.
And so for things like this, you have to take it seriously.
You have to maybe have a special force team that kind of steps up and helps.
Which I should say that a lot of people inside Israel probably support.
I should also say, not now, but earlier in Qatar, when Hamas was in Qatar, they were interested in doing a podcast.
The members of Hamas were not in hiding, so the representatives were interested in doing a podcast, and there I decided not to because it's like everyone knows what Hamas is.
It's almost like, easy, why not do a podcast?
But it was like, well, that just feels...
I mean, you are platforming hate there that's in a way where you can't properly dissect and present and analyze and push and pull.
In fact, one of the ways I would imagine talking to Hamas is pushing them actually pretty hard.
In that case, I would actually push hard, and they would probably, because a lot of them are kind of just pretty shallow and insane.
So, like, they would just get really angry.
Like, there's a real anger.
They would not come off as...
One of the fears talking to dictators is just the charisma.
My opening statement to Netanyahu was, you know, a lot of people hate you.
When I talked to him in August, a lot of people were protesting outside.
There's a lot of people that hate you.
What do you have to say to those people?
That's the opening thing.
He said something like, everybody loves me.
I just gave a talk in Iran, and 20 million people listened to me, and they love me.
So how do you talk to a person where the reality is like, well, no, no, there is people that love you, Prime Minister Netanyahu, but there's quite a lot of people outside.
People are very hopeful with him as president now, which is very different than in 2016. 2016 was like this existential crisis that the media just blasted into everybody's head.
I think enough time has passed and enough faith has been lost in the media that people have sort of woken up out of that and realized we can't keep going the way we're going.
Because you know that the government is able to fake the fucking moon landing and to get people to shut their mouths and a bunch of people disappeared.
To send people through thousands of miles of intense radiation and have no biological animal that you've ever done that to that's come back alive and just let's try it on people.
When they measured it, it was, like, way more radiation.
They didn't blow a hole through it at all.
They fucked it up.
They supercharged it.
But just the fact that they were trying to do that.
They were trying to blow up.
Nuclear weapons in space like if I was the aliens, that's when I would start showing up like look at these fucking assholes high-altitude nuclear tests What what are people doing?
Not only that it shut off the power in Hawaii.
It fucked Hawaii up Hawaii had like a brownout like these guys are psychopaths Can you imagine, like, sitting at a table with a bunch of generals, and this guy comes in with a cigar?
I want to launch a fucking nuke in space!
I want to see what happens.
I just want to see what happens.
You know what my favorite one of those is?
The very first detonation of the very first nuclear bomb.
There was a non-zero chance that that bomb was going to destroy the entire atmosphere of the Earth.
I think it's too difficult to harness the power of the sun while you're a tribal monkey and not blow yourself up or fuck things up horribly or just get involved in natural disasters that you didn't adequately prepare for.
Imagine that there's no one out there trying to put that fire out.
That would be fucking insane.
And, you know, I think Civilization has probably gone through a gang of those before.
I think Graham Hancock, as much as he gets criticized, I think he's onto something.
I think Randall Carlson is as well.
I think they're onto something.
I think...
It's probably the end of the Ice Age.
It's probably asteroid impacts.
There's too much physical evidence that corresponds with the timeline for it to be ignored.
I mean, it's a pretty accepted theory now, the Younger Dryas Impact Theory.
It's just like what happened during that time and what existed before that time.
And all the stuff that we see a few thousand years later, is that a reimagining of civilization out of complete and utter chaos?
Because I think it might be.
And it might be one of the reasons why we're so fucking barbaric.
It might be that our ancestors were the ones who survived the most horrific time in history.
We got hit by asteroids and civilization just evaporated instantaneously.
Millions of people probably instantaneously died.
We were left with chaos in a completely different climate.
Places that were covered in ice are now raging rivers.
The whole thing's fucked.
All the animals are dead.
Most people you know that are anywhere near the impact are dead.
People get washed away in the floods.
Entire civilizations just instantaneously flooded and destroyed.
That could happen again.
That could happen again tomorrow.
That could happen again next month.
We're in the shooting gallery.
We're in the shooting gallery of the universe, and I bet that's pretty common.
So I bet the race is to try to get intelligent enough that you can do all these different things, but also intelligent enough that you abandon these ancient primal instincts that you have.
And that's where we're at the cusp of that.
We're at the cusp of our tribal chaos mixed in with impossible knowledge.
And it's all like happening at the same time.
And so there's this wild race that's going on.
And people like you and people like me and people that are hopeful, we hope we get it right.
We hope we get it right.
But we might not get it right.
And I think out there in the universe, I think it's probably more likely that people don't get it right than do get it right.
And if they do get wiped out, I mean, we got the Toba volcano, we got down somewhere around 70,000 years ago to a few thousand people on Earth.
Well, that's one of the things I've just seen, even on the smaller scale of the war in Ukraine, is, you know, your house or the city gets destroyed, and people adapt immediately.
Yeah, and one of the things, you know, just having traveled across the world, like the thing that really America stands out with and why I'm excited about what's happening now is the radical individual freedom.
I think the freer the country is, the individual, back to Genghis Khan with the freedom to practice religion, the freer the people are, the more resilient they are to the...
The terrors, the catastrophes of the world.
They just respond.
They're much more dynamic.
The more centralized and collectivist the society is, the more you're susceptible to corruption, to this kind of propaganda.
You're not able to respond to even the pandemic.
Just governments are not able to do that.
The Fauci's of the world will always emerge.
It's not even...
Say even Fauci wanted to do the right thing or something.
It's impossible for the centralized authorities to do the right thing.
You have to have a distributed...
You have to put much more weight on the freedom of the individual.
Attacking people, what's happened with this country because of January 6th and their version of it and what actually happened.
You know, what the FBI did with the Twitter files, with influencing things, what they did with Facebook, where they contacted and were telling them to take down memes.
Can I actually just say about that, I don't know if he gets enough credit, but I think what Mark Zuckerberg did on your podcast is actually, it may not seem that way, but it's courageous.
Like, you either get in the way and get rolled over or you get on board.
And if you want your company to succeed in today's day and age and not be disdained and universally, whether it's whether people boycott it or people just start hating on it, the stock drops.
Like, if a new thing that's like Facebook, because Facebook is, although it's so common, It's one of those ones you could do without, kind of.
It doesn't have the kind of information gathering aspect that X does.
Like, if I want to find out what's going on in the world, I go to X. Facebook's not like that.
It's like people talking about stuff and posting videos and things, like...
It's the best way to find out what's real and what's not real.
But then it's also like, you know, should you let people on your platform that are just fucking straight up Nazis and trying to recruit people?
Should you let horrible racism exist on your platform?
The problem was that slippery slope, man.
If you say no, if you say no, then other people are going to decide.
Remember Punch a Nazi?
Were people saying you should punch a Nazi?
I remember Kurt Metzger was like, well, who fucking gets to say who's a Nazi?
If it was just a guy running a gas chamber, yeah, punch a Nazi.
But if it's just some guy who doesn't think that a trans woman should be competing against his daughter in high school sports, like, that's not a Nazi.
I think that these people that attack, almost all of them are leftists.
And I think leftism is a religion, just like being a Christian is a religion, in that there's a way that you approach it.
Marc Andreessen says it best.
He was describing that it has all the attributes of a cult.
And I think people have a default system in their mind, we all do, that we fall into, that gives us a religious-like adherence to some ideas.
And the thing that this cult is lacking, which is paramount to Christianity, is forgiveness.
There's no road to redemption.
Everyone is ostracized and kicked out.
And what you wind up doing is you wind up cannibalizing your own thing.
You can never be left enough.
There's always crazy people that are like far to the end of it and every ideological group gets defined by its most extreme members.
That's why when people think about, like, far-right people, who do you think are the worst people?
You think of, like, people who want war, warmongers, assholes, you know, stupid people, uneducated.
That's what people think of when they think of, like, the worst.
They think of, like, white nationalists.
That's what they think of when they think of far-right.
So you can kind of, like, you flavor everything else in the group by the worst members of the group.
And if you don't have forgiveness in your religion, like, you have a fucking terrible religion.
If you don't have a path to redemption.
And you want extreme adherence to dogma, even if, like, even if whatever this idea with this ideology that you're pushing is, like, clearly, clearly destructive to a bunch of humans.
That's what they're dealing with.
It's like people fall into thought patterns, man.
Most people are too busy to formulize their own opinions, so they develop opinions to sort of merge with the people that they're in touch with all the time.
And if you get stuck in one of those fucking woke hives, you're basically surrounded by mentally ill people that are preaching in a logical version of the world that no one believes could ever exist.
I think they will have to just by virtue of their survival.
I think the woke thing is so widely rejected now.
And when I say the woke thing, I mean what Elon calls the mind virus.
The crazy aspect of it.
Like your kid knows it's trans when it's two.
That kind of shit.
Like the people that are just far off the rails.
That's gonna die off.
It's just too nutty and it doesn't make any sense and it's ultimately destructive to a lot of different groups of people.
And it's not fair.
The trans women in sports thing is the most unfair aspect of it.
That one's so crazy.
When you see people argue for it, inclusivity, like, you're out of your fucking mind.
Like, you're out of your mind.
And the inability to discern who's a pervert and who's actually trans, like the impossible nature and then just greenlighting perverts to do whatever they want.