Luis Elizondo, ex-U.S. counterintelligence officer and former head of a classified UAP program, reveals how military reports—including 4K footage, hypersonic underwater objects, and 1950s nuclear site sightings—confirmed phenomena defying known physics, yet secrecy persists due to Cold War-era fears and legal complexities like SEC violations. He warns that institutional corruption, not UAP, poses humanity’s gravest threat, citing his father’s Bay of Pigs trauma and Cuba’s descent into tyranny as cautionary tales. Elizondo insists transparency is critical, framing Rogan’s platform as a rare opportunity to challenge government overreach and explore existence beyond physical or intellectual limits, from ancient "eclipus" to potential silicon-based intelligence. [Automatically generated summary]
Well, you'll have to share with me your secret, because unfortunately, I tell people, this is as good as it gets.
I'm about as attractive as a cement truck, you know?
So after the Army, I went into the Federal Service and had a lot of jobs, mostly in counterintelligence, which is looking basically what the bad guys know about us from an intelligence perspective.
And in 2008, I changed my job.
One of my jobs, I was working at the Director of National Intelligence, which for most people may or may not know, it's kind of outside of D.C. And where I lived, I was on the other side of D.C. living on a little island in the Chesapeake Bay.
Well, you know, I wanted to give my kids a really good quality of life, and I did not want to work in the city and then kind of expose them to kind of the craziness, if that makes sense.
So I was offered a job to go back to the Pentagon in 2008 for a little while and basically run the integration between national-level intelligence information and local and state and tribal law enforcement.
So after 9-11, the country realized that we had a significant problem getting national-level information down to the cops on the ground that could actually do something about it.
Why?
Because he didn't have security clearances.
So they weren't allowed to be provided that information.
One of my jobs was to try to help fix that.
And shortly thereafter, I got there in 2008. It was probably early 2009 is when I was approached by two individuals who came to me and they said, look, we'd like to consider you for a program that we're part of.
It's a very nuanced program, very...
Secretive program.
Now, when you're in the government, you hear that all the time.
It's not, you know, people look and they say, oh, you have a secret clearance or a top secret clearance.
Millions of people have some sort of security clearance in the government.
And a lot, a lot of people have a top secret clearance.
So, no, I didn't know what I was getting involved in.
And after several conversations, it occurred to me that their interest in me Was some of my background I had.
In my early career as a special agent in counterintelligence, I was protecting technologies, critical technologies, critical avionic technologies, for example, and some aerospace technologies.
So think of first stage solid rocket motor booster technology, Tomaha cruise missiles, stuff like that, Apache longbow.
So advanced avionics was something I was kind of already familiar with.
And at the same time, I had the counterintelligence background.
So I was asked to come in and run the counterintelligence and security aspect for a particular program, at which time I had no idea what the program even was.
So what does counterintelligence and security mean?
It just simply means making sure that our adversaries like Russia and China can't penetrate our organization and steal our secrets.
That's all it is.
It's kind of a fancy word for just saying security, information security and operational security.
So I remember I had a meeting.
They brought me to go see their director.
And it was in a...
I would tell you the location, but I was told by the Pentagon not to say the specific location of this office.
But it was somewhere in the D.C. area.
It was a facility that wasn't known publicly to have an intelligence office in there.
So I can't say the specific location.
But I went there.
And I went up to the top floor, I think it was the top floor, almost the top floor, and I met for the first time a gentleman named James Lakatsky, Dr. James Lakatsky, PhD.
And this guy was the epitome of a rocket scientist.
And when I say the epitome, I mean he was probably, and there's no exaggeration, the number one rocket scientist in the US government.
Now, He's a humble guy, so he'll probably tell you he wasn't, but he really was.
He's an amazing human being and very smart.
And after a very brief conversation, he looked at me and he said, I want to ask you a question.
I said, okay, sir.
And he said, what do you think about UFOs?
I said, well, I answered truthfully.
I said, I don't.
And he said, well, what do you mean?
You don't believe in them?
And I said, no, that's not what I said.
You asked me if I think, you know, what do I think about UFOs?
And frankly, I don't think about UFOs.
I really don't have the luxury to think about them.
I'm too busy, you know, working intelligence operations and whatnot.
And I remember him looking over his glasses and...
Very seriously, staring me straight in the eye and says, well, don't let your personal bias get the best of you, because what you may learn may surprise you and may challenge any preconceived notion of what you think something is or is not.
And so, let me backtrack for a minute.
I've never been a UFO guy.
People come up like, oh, you're that UFO guy.
I'm really not.
I was never really into science fiction as a kid.
I wasn't into the Star Trek or the Star Wars like a lot of people were.
So that was not my disposition.
I grew up, I guess, playing G.I. Joe and stuff like that.
So that wasn't my background.
And certainly in college, I studied microbiology and immunology with a focus on parasitology.
Not parapsychology, the study of parasites, parasitology.
So the scientific method has always been something that has been near and dear to me.
And then, of course, later on as a special agent, when you're conducting investigations, for me, I was always very fact-driven.
Kind of the old gumshoe, if you will, just the facts, ma'am sort of guy.
So I was never really prone to any type of...
If you will, affinity towards science fiction or even the UFO topic.
First of all, I was introduced to the reporting, right?
So there was these official reports that we were getting from the field.
There's official videos and whatnot that describe vehicles doing things, maneuvering in ways that, frankly, outperform anything we have in our inventory.
Now, keep in mind my background Was at some point in aerospace.
So I knew all the capabilities of an F-16 or, for example, an F-22 or the F-35.
And at the end of the day, as advanced as they are, they're still conventional aircraft.
You know, they still have the old, there's an adage they use for jet engines.
It may seem a little awkward here, but it's suck, squeeze, bang, and blow.
That's what a jet engine does.
Forgive me, that's what it does.
It's a conventional type engine.
Of course, you have a propeller too that can displace air and whatnot.
These vehicles were different.
These vehicles, for the most part, didn't have any type of associated characteristic that you or I or any normal person would associate With a plane, with an airplane, an aircraft, right?
And yet it's flying.
So how does an airplane work?
Well, let's say this cigar, for example, is an airplane, and there's four fundamental forces.
And so you have thrust, lift, drag, and weight.
And if you understand those, you can build wings, and you create lift, and you can fly.
And then you have to have an engine for that thrust and whatnot.
The things that our military pilots were encountering didn't have that.
They didn't have wings.
They didn't have rudders and ailerons and control surfaces.
They didn't have cockpits.
They didn't have engines and no obvious signs of propulsion.
They were doing things and maneuvering in ways that, frankly, Defied anything that we had in our inventory and we were pretty certain the enemies didn't have either.
Our adversary didn't have these technologies either.
And even more perplexing is that they were being encountered over controlled U.S. airspace and over sensitive military installations.
So, you know, from that perspective, you've got a real national security concern on your hands.
You know, I think part of the challenge is that most people here in this country, they're familiar with the three videos, right, that have been famously released by the Pentagon.
But those are the least compelling of all the videos that the government has.
Those were unclassified.
And so those were the ones, those were kind of the low-hanging fruit that could be released to the general public.
There's stuff out there that's like 4K ultra-high definition, right?
So when you see something like that from a certain military platform or a certain military equity or an intelligence collection platform, you have to look at that and say, well, what is that?
What the hell is that?
And more importantly, that data is being backed up by radar data, right?
So you've got electro-optical data like gun camera footage or pod or FLIR video, and then you've got Radar data.
That is actually confirming what the video is picking up.
And then you've got eyewitnesses that are also watching it, right?
So you've got trained observers, pilots that can recognize the silhouette between an SU-22 and a MiG-25 from 20 miles away and make a split-second decision.
Is it friend or foe?
Do I kill it or do I let it live?
And they're reporting it.
So you have now, you know, three separate, if you will, collection platforms, the human eye being one of them.
You've got gun camera footage and you've got radar footage, all describing the same event at the same place at the same time under the same circumstances, right?
And so keep in mind with my background as a former special agent in counterintelligence, if this was in front of a jury, You know, as I've said before, I think we're well beyond reasonable doubt.
What was the first thing that you saw that made you realize that there's something going on here that defies conventional wisdom or conventional understanding of propulsion systems?
I think for me one of the most compelling moments was when I attended...
Boy, let me go back to memory banks.
I attended a dinner with some individuals who were already associated with the larger umbrella program called ASAP. And I attended dinner at a Washington, D.C. hotel, and a Brazilian general attended this dinner.
And the dinner was sponsored by a gentleman named Robert Bigelow.
And people don't realize that he self-funded a lot of this stuff on behalf of the U.S. government by himself.
He paid to do it himself.
He really is an American patriot, in my opinion.
But anyways, he flew in this guy named General Uchoa.
General Uchoa was a Brazilian general, very, very senior in the Brazilian government, who led an investigation about an event that occurred over several days.
and they had an overwhelming number of eyewitnesses, and there was even some video and photographs that they had produced internally there to Brazil, and it was overwhelming, the evidence.
And for me, It was more listening to him and explain the concern they had and some of the interactions the Brazilian government officials had with these UAP that really I left there that dinner scratching my head and really at that point beginning to absorb the profoundness that we're dealing with something that is real.
This is not a cover plan for some other technology we're trying to protect.
And he brought a manila envelope, and he was showing photographs to everybody, right?
And some reporting as well.
I think he brought, if I recall correctly, his daughter to translate, because I don't think English was his, you know, very good.
It wasn't his language.
But for me, that was, and I think for one of my colleagues, too, which I probably can't say his name right now because he hasn't come out publicly yet, but we both left that dinner.
I think scratching our heads and saying, wow, this is legit.
This is real.
The U.S. government is interested in this and there is interest by our government.
After that dinner, attending more meetings and beginning to read the reports, the field reports, and speaking to the scientists, it became evident to me that this was a very serious issue.
We had near misses over some of our areas of operation.
In some cases, literally, these UAP splitting a combat formation.
Now, if you know how planes fly, they fly very close in a combat situation.
These things were splitting the formation, right?
That there were reports being provided through the Air Force, mostly through the Navy, about air safety issues.
Where pilots literally could run into these things, right?
Not that I'm aware of what I can tell you that there has been incidents where there appears to be some sort of provocation where one of these things seems to be...
Coming deliberately close to an aircraft, not necessarily trying to hit it, but maybe trying to demonstrate performance capabilities.
There was one video in particular.
I haven't been cleared by the Pentagon, so let me see if I can speak about it in general terms.
There's a pilot flying.
And you can hear on the radio this chatter back and forth.
Do you see it?
Do you have eyes down on it?
Pilot, nope.
Negative.
No eyes down.
Okay, you should have it on our radar.
Yeah, I got something on our radar, but no eyes.
I can't see it.
And then all of a sudden, a craft...
An object goes whizzing right by the cockpit, and I mean probably like 15 feet away.
And you can hear the pilot, the expletives of the pilot, you know, I won't see it here on air, but you can imagine, right, what a pilot would say when they're very, very surprised.
So that was the first time I ever saw something like that.
To me, it was...
Keep in mind, I never followed this topic.
So every time I'm seeing one of these videos, I'm kind of seeing something for the very first time.
So lenticular, whether it's a disc-shaped craft or it's It's a wedge-shaped craft or a diamond-shaped craft or a triangle-shaped craft, boomerang in some cases.
These were all new to me.
So it was very, very perplexing.
And obviously, to our military pilots, it was very concerning.
And I think when you look at some of the gold standard cases we had, like the Nimitz, for example, that case, you have this overwhelming number of sensors Looking at the same thing going on that the pilots are reporting.
And for me, that was most compelling.
Like I said, more than...
Eyewitness testimony is important, but at the end of the day, you know, grandma seeing some lights in her backyard doesn't really do it for me.
You know, I'm a fact-oriented kind of guy.
I've got to see the data.
Let the data...
Provide us the information we need so then we can make a conclusion.
If you start seeing UFOs in the sky everywhere, well, chances are they're probably not.
It's a quadcopter, it's a balloon, it's an aircraft, it could be all sorts of things.
That's why I think from our perspective, having the fundamental categories, the observables we call them, was so important because they are so beyond what a normal aircraft, a traditional conventional aircraft can do At that point, you realize you're dealing with some sort of beyond next generation technology.
And that's when it gets compelling for guys like me, right?
When you're seeing performance capabilities that far exceed, far surpass anything we have, and I'm talking even the very, very best technology we have, we don't come close to that.
Other cases, people will report what they think are windows.
They say, oh, I saw windows.
But at the end of the day, you know, we're looking that in terms of what we think a window is, right?
So you see a car, you see windows.
Or a plane, those are windows.
I didn't see any information to suggest that there were actually windows, even though an eyewitness might describe a window, because we are describing something of something that we recognize.
And so we say, oh, that might be a window or whatnot.
But it might not be a window.
And so I want to be very careful to say there were no windows.
There could have been, but the ones that I was privy to that I saw, I didn't see any obvious signs of like a windshield or a window.
I didn't see anything like that.
I saw vehicles that were doing things that were just left you scratching your head.
And they were real, like I said, because you're backing it up with all this other sensor data.
And some of the best sophisticated sensor data, by the way, at the time on the planet, That we have, right?
Like the SPY1 radar and the E2 Hawkeye and some of the other radar capabilities and technical capabilities that other intelligence agencies have that I can't discuss here.
You know, this is the stuff that helps us put, forgive the It's an analogy here, but warheads on foreheads.
When we're going to take a strike against a terrorist, these are the same sensor systems we use to prosecute that war, that act, both in combat and not in combat.
So, yeah, that for me was very compelling.
And it's lots and lots of videos.
People think that there's only three videos.
Those don't even scratch the surface.
There are hundreds and hundreds of videos That the intelligence community and the Department of Defense have on these things.
I don't want to speak on behalf of the government.
I... Colleagues of mine, like Chris Mellon, who have been very, very, very active in this topic and have actually been responsible for a lot of what we see now happening in Congress, has been championing that.
He is the one who says, look, we need more videos to come out so the American people can see for themselves What we've been dealing with.
When I had Chris Mellon in the Pentagon, he saw those videos.
And up to that point, when he was a senior person at the Pentagon, like very senior, one of his jobs as the senior intelligence official, he asked, hey, do we have any UAP, UFO videos, investigations, anything like that?
And he told him no.
So when he came to the Pentagon and saw what we actually did have...
You can imagine someone like Chris Mellon, right?
He wasn't very happy.
He was actually pretty disappointed, saying why?
Why was I told no?
I can see these videos.
Clearly, I see the reports.
Clearly, this is something that we're interested in as a Department of Defense.
And yet, when I was one of the senior guys, he got the Heisman, right?
He was being told no.
And so that was, I think, a point for him that really – that's probably the – and I don't want to speak for my friend Chris, but I suspect that was probably the spark that got him to the point where he said, OK, we have to do something about this.
Yeah, when I was talking to him, it seemed like that was his perspective, that this was something that really should be, at least in some way, shape, or form, released to the general public.
Just to solidify the conversation, just to let people know, like, these are real.
This is a real thing.
These are not just...
Have you seen the one that people were filming just a couple of days ago in Palmdale, California?
What is the oldest where it's like, okay, what the fuck is this?
What's the oldest stuff that's compelling?
The point is what I'm trying to get at is a lot of people point to the possibility that there's some sort of a secret program, some sort of secret propulsion, gravity-based, whatever it is, that's completely different than conventional propulsion systems that the U.S. government has and that they're operating these drones.
And the problem with that Is always the Kenneth Arnold sightings, the Roswell, the sightings from a time where that technology just wasn't available at all?
It's a short document, but the portions, I think, are highlighted that you're going to want to pay attention to.
And let's see here.
Okay.
So if this is just for you and if your audience is interested, it's this paragraph here you're going to want to read, and then it's the last one that's highlighted, and then take a look at the date and the subject line.
This summary of observations of aerial phenomenon has been prepared for the purpose of reemphasizing and reiterating the fact that the phenomena have continuously occurred in the New Mexico skies during the past 18 months.
And are continuing to occur.
And secondly, that these phenomena are occurring in the vicinity of sensitive military and government installations.
The observers of those phenomena include scientists, special agents of the Office of Special Investigations, The U.S. Air Force, airline pilots, military pilots, Los Alamos security inspectors, military personnel, and many other persons of various occupations whose reliability is not questioned.
The Summary of Observations of Aerial Phenomenon in the New Mexico Area, December 1948 to May 1950. And the date of that document, if you scroll a little bit higher you are going to see the date of that memo.
Oh, 1950. Yes, sir.
May 25th, 1950. It says that it was determined that the frequency of unexplained error phenomena in the New Mexico area was such that an organized plan of reporting these observations should be undertaken.
But it highlights that these are official government documents through official government personnel.
Raising the alarm bells, just like we did in ASAP and ATIPS. And so, this is nothing new.
Now, if you want to look at this from an adversarial perspective, Our government has already said that's not ours, right?
If you look at a 1950 Sabre jet, for example, it wasn't even supersonic.
And yet these things that we are observing in some cases are doing – I brought some more documents here – multiples of Mach and doing velocities and doing things that we frankly could not do back then and frankly we still can't do in some cases.
Temporally speaking, the only two countries in the world may have a chance of doing something like that would be Russia and China.
And now in 1950, where was China?
It was in the middle of a famine at the time, and where was Russia?
Russia was trying to develop the atomic bomb and still was using horse-drawn carts for a lot of their military operations.
Temporally speaking, it doesn't make sense.
This is the analogy I've used before, Joe, that it would be like Carter going into King Tut's tomb for the very first time in the 1920s, discovering King Tut's tomb, and when he goes in, he finds a fully assembled 747 jet.
It doesn't make sense.
Temporally speaking, they did not have that technology.
So, is it possible, and I'll be very careful what I say, that the U.S. government Has some sort of exotic technology?
Well, my answer is I sure hope so because, you know, we want to have an advantage over our adversaries.
But wouldn't you want to just – like if you really think this thing is from somewhere else, the best example of it definitely not being ours is something from the 1950s.
And I'm sure the original is probably much cleaner.
But that's what the government put out online for people to review.
So when you're going back to answer your question, when you are going to a general or you're going to a military leader about this topic, if you go back to anecdotal stuff like, oh, this is something from 1950s, they're not interested.
They're like, look, what is going on now?
What is the threat now?
I've got a carrier strike group out in the water.
I'm getting reports these things are coming in and interrogating the ship.
You know, what's going on?
I want to see that.
I want to see the videos.
I want to see the reporting.
I want to see the deck logs and what the commander says.
And I want to know the pilots.
I want to talk to the pilots, the radar operators.
That's their focus.
They're not interested.
By the way, we've tried a few times.
And the further back in time we go, the less interested they were.
And in fact, in other countries, whether it's in Latin America, South America, or in Europe, or Russia, China, there is an extreme interest in this topic.
In fact, the Chinese, it was in the newspaper, I think it was the China Morning Sun, they have something called the Five Continents Initiative, where allegedly they were trying to Broker a deal with the United Nations that would allow China to run all the UFO investigations for the United Nations, right?
So we also know that Russia, they've come out and said, yeah, we're interested in this topic.
There was some released old KGB footage that showed MIG interactions with these UAP. And there's also in Latin America, you have the same thing.
If you go to Latin America now, they don't have the same level of stigma and taboo associated with this topic like we do.
And so they talk freely about it.
They have no problem talking.
In fact, when I was in the Patagonia area of Argentina, there is a near town called Barreloche and Las Lajas.
One of the chief of police was telling me there's an area there called La Miranda.
La Miranda means to see, to view.
And they call it that, the town, and because UAP are so frequent there that local law enforcement actually built an observatory, an observation post, to look at these things because they were so frequent.
So this is not a new phenomenon.
This is something that's been around for quite a long time.
The problem is, in my opinion, and I could be wrong, but this is my assessment, is The reason why it's so difficult to have the conversation here is because our government had placed so much emphasis and interest trying to stigmatize this topic that it almost worked too well.
Now, we're at the point where we should be having this conversation and people still don't want to because they think it's crazy.
You think of tinfoil hats and Elvis on the mothership, when in reality, we're talking about a real national security issue.
I mean, these things are here.
You have, Joe, you have a former director of national intelligence, Radcliffe, a former director of CIA. Brennan, you have former presidents all coming out and saying, yeah, there's something to it.
It's real, right?
Now, what it is, where it's from and all that stuff, I'm not sure we're quite ready to go there yet.
But the acknowledgement is, hey, man, yeah, this is real.
So if we go back to the history of the debunking of it, you know, like the Project Blue Book stuff, J. Allen Hynek, after he had left Project Blue Book, he became a proponent of UFO disclosure.
During Project Blue Book, it was his job to essentially dismiss everything and to come up with some sort of a reason, swamp gas, mass hallucinations, whatever it was, to attribute all these sightings to something that was very easy to explain.
Is there any documentation or any discussion of why they did that, why they chose to debunk everything?
My understanding is you have to look at where America was at the time they were doing these investigations.
It was at the height of the Cold War, right?
And despite what some people think, the Cold War wasn't very cold at all.
It was pretty hot.
And we had Russia and the United States engaging in these proxy wars.
Neither side wanted to let the other side know what we had and what we didn't know, right?
So if you have these UAP coming in and out, the last thing you want to do is tell the other side, broadcast, this is what we've learned from it, and more importantly, this is what we don't know about it, right?
And so both sides were keeping this very quiet, but there was an interesting agreement at the classified level, I believe in the late 60s, where...
There was this relationship with the United States.
We were putting up our northern tier radar system to detect then Soviet Union ICBMs.
And they were doing the same thing, right?
Because none of us really trusted each other.
But we trusted each other enough to say, look, before you hit that button, if you see something coming over the horizon, before you hit that button and launch, give us a call because...
It might be a UFO, right?
And we don't want to start World War III because either side mistakes the UFO for an ICBM. And that's how serious they took the topic.
I mean that's real.
That's a real memo that existed between the United States and Russia.
So that is an indicator how much both sides took this topic seriously.
And so when Philip Corso was dismissing all these different things, did they have anything, any film footage, any stuff from that time from Project Blue Book that was like definitively not ours?
I'm aware of the fact that people say it does exist and people have been briefed on it.
I wasn't privy to that.
I was, again, more focused on the here and now.
I was aware of people who had attended certain meetings, very senior level meetings where that was discussed, where they saw certain footage.
But I'm hearing that secondhand.
I did not see the old footage.
My focus was more on the current what's going on now.
But back to your point.
Why was this effort to try to create so much stigma and taboo?
I think it was because of that.
I think because you had Russia and US at this weird stalemate where neither one wanted to tell the other side what we know and what we didn't know about UAP. And really, I think the focus from a national security perspective, let's say you're a general and I'm a general.
Look, we've got a real cold war going on here right now.
As long as these things aren't coming in and zapping my people, that's going to be my focus right now.
That's a real potential threat that I have to deal with now.
I've got Russia pointing nukes at me and I'm pointing nukes at them at any time we could launch.
Let's focus on that more so than the other stuff.
And that has been my observation on why...
They didn't want to address the problem, the challenge openly with the general public back.
And they also were worried.
There was several studies that suggested that most people would be very uncomfortable with that idea that there's something else in the cosmos potentially or even right here on Earth.
And that it would create some sort of societal disruption, right?
They didn't want to cause panic.
They were afraid that people would kind of like think of a run on Wall Street, right?
When people get panic, they do kind of strange things sometimes.
And I think the government was very worried about that.
There's a general public that is filming stuff, but from a Department of Defense perspective, our focus—now, Arrow is a different story, but when I was in the government, we had to be very, very careful of something we called intelligence oversight.
Back in the 60s and 70s, the U.S. intelligence apparatus, particularly in the Department of Defense— You don't say.
Crazy.
Say it isn't so.
So Congress passed some laws and said, OK, you can no longer do this kind of stuff on American citizens, right?
You can't conduct intelligence operations on American citizens.
You can't do it.
It's illegal, right?
So you have Executive Order 12333 and all these other rules and laws and DOD 5240.1 that all come out and say no mas.
So Department of Defense is supposed to focus on military.
That's it.
You don't bring in U.S. persons' information and ingest them into a Department of Defense It seems like you got plenty of compelling footage from the military.
Overwhelming.
Overwhelming.
There's absolutely no doubt that we didn't have to look at civilian data because we had Better collection sensor systems from the military that was looking at stuff and giving us better insight.
There is a video that shows one of these objects underwater.
That goes by, the speed was calculated between 450 and 550 knots underwater, and it was bigger than the offshore derrick that it was passing, because you could see in the video the offshore derrick, and you could see this thing zip right by it.
Now it's unidentified anomalous phenomenon because it's all domain.
Initially it was UFO, unidentified flying object.
And for several reasons they changed the name.
One of them not just because of stigma like people think.
Right.
flying object means flight.
And you have to have wings to fly.
That's flight.
And these things don't have wings.
So that term, we're not even sure is even accurate anymore because they're not necessarily flying.
We see them underwater.
We see them super high altitude.
So the term was changed to unidentified aerial phenomenon.
But again, that did not encompass all the observations we were seeing.
So now the term UAP, I think the latest description of it is unidentified anomalous phenomenon to help describe this multi-domain or transmedium characteristic that we are beginning to see and record that these things can do.
And that is, I'm going to, if I can, digress for a second because that's super important, Joe.
We have transmedium vehicles, right?
We have things like seaplanes.
And it's a plane and it can float on water.
But let's face it, a seaplane is neither a really good plane or a really good boat because it's a compromise.
It's a design compromise between an object that you want to perform in the air and in the sea.
And that's why it's neither really good at both.
Same thing with, for example, a space shuttle.
It goes out into space and it can glide down, but it's not a very good airplane.
It comes down like a brick, you know, because there's design compromises and performance compromises.
But what we are seeing doesn't have any of that attributable compromise.
These objects aren't slowing down.
They're not changing...
Their performance capabilities, they can do the same thing that we're seeing in the air and possibly in space and even underwater.
So that is a fundamentally different type of technology than we are used to dealing with.
Is the assumption that they are doing something with space-time and gravity around them rather than using something like a jet propulsion engine that blasts fire out the back and it makes it go fast forward?
That they're doing something that alters the gravity around them.
Yeah, so we had some of the best scientists on the team, folks like Dr. Hal Puthoff and some other folks that I'm not allowed to say their names, Dr. Eric Davis and some others, that were doing the calculations, mathematical calculations on how this is possible.
And the consensus was by the scientists, not me, because I'm not a...
I'm not an astrophysicist.
They were saying that – so let me back up here.
Initially, the government for years was trying to identify the different exotic technologies that could explain the different performance characteristics.
And it was during the ATP years that the scientists had this consensus that if you had one type of technology, if you could do one thing, all these other observables now become possible.
Kind of think of like a unifying theory.
And so if you had the ability to create this bubble around you In a localized area that insulated you from the effects of Earth's gravity.
Now, what is gravity?
People think that, you know, when I drop my glasses, that's gravity.
That's not gravity.
That's an effect of gravity.
Gravity is the warping of space-time.
And that's important because people don't...
You hear the term thrown around a lot, but they don't realize that space and time are actually connected.
They are one and the same.
They're opposite sides, if you will, of the same coin.
And so you can't have one without the other.
And so you have this ability to create a bubble around you that insulates you from the warping of space-time, let's say in this case Earth's gravity or something like that, then the way you experience time inside that bubble Is perhaps fundamentally different than the way you might experience space-time outside that bubble because you're not subject to the effects of gravity, which would explain potentially why things don't need wings and why they don't need propulsion systems like that, right?
So it's a completely different way of looking at how we understand physics and how we, as humans, Move about.
Everything we do is fundamentally force equals mass times acceleration.
F equals MA, right?
Mass times acceleration, and you get force.
This may be something a little bit different.
This is not using a set, again, conventional thrust, or if I put, you know, Newtonian, right?
If I push this way, I have an equal and opposite reaction that way, right?
You have an object like this cup on your table, and you want it to be insulated from the effects of Earth's gravity.
So you create this bubble artificially using a certain energetic source at a certain frequency, and it interacts with certain material, certain metamaterial.
And again, I've got to be careful exactly what I say, but Certain skin of the craft, this aluminum cup here, and all of a sudden you have this bubble around you where what you see on the outside is not necessarily what you see on the inside.
In fact, may I do a short drawing for you?
Okay, forgive me, I'm not an artist, so I'm gonna do this upside down for you and then I'm gonna kind of scoot this just a little here.
All right, let's do this.
So...
Unfortunately, I know your audience can't see this, but actually...
If you had the ability to compress space-time, and not a lot, just a little bit, and you were able to allow these points to be a little closer together, now in essence, What took you, let's say, five hours and 500 miles an hour to do it, you can do it in one hour.
And you can do it in much less time.
But to the observer outside, because we're still in the same universe, we would see something like that.
We would see this incredible hopscotching ability to, if you will, take a shortcut through space-time.
And so what would appear to be instantaneous acceleration, hypersonic velocity, and other things, Now becomes a reality.
And so that is fundamentally what these scientists had discovered.
And so it seems like science fiction, but when you understand the mathematics and some of the theorem that they proposed, a lot of these other observables become possible.
There's a whole lot of other stuff that, if you can do that, all of a sudden now makes sense and may describe The observations that people are seeing and why they're kind of hard to see and they seem obscure.
And so I think from a governmental perspective that it was kind of a revelatory moment for the folks in our program.
I am not allowed to talk about what the government may or may not have in its possession other than that I have – so I went through a very lengthy Pentagon review process.
Recently I wrote – I won't talk about it here but I wrote something and I had to go through Pentagon to have a review process and it took almost a year.
In this thing I wrote, I talk about up to the part I can talk about and they approved for me to talk about up to that point.
When it comes to what the government may or may not have in its possession, all I can simply say is that there is very compelling evidence to suggest that the U.S. government is in absolute possession of exotic material that is not made by humans.
Now, beyond that, I can't really expound upon.
I haven't been given permission to talk about it.
But what I can say is what I've already said for the record, which has been approved by the Pentagon.
Won't get in trouble by saying it.
Is that, that we are, there's very compelling data to suggest that we are in possession.
Why do they tell you, why are they allowing you to say we are in possession of something that was not made by human beings, but not allowed to elaborate, not allowed to show these very compelling videos that you're talking about that you've seen?
I think with now the introduction of cell phones and ring cameras, the cat's out of the bag.
It's the worst kept secret at this point.
Two, there is a faction – unlike before in the Cold War, I believe there is a faction of people inside the government that do want this conversation to occur.
But equally, there's still a faction of people that are very mad with me.
They do not want me having this conversation.
And mark my words, just by me being on your show – It is going to cause an absolute storm inside the Pentagon, and I am sure the other shoe is going to drop.
I promise you, you're going to hear all sorts of stuff.
People make stuff up about me trying to discredit this topic, because as many people are in the government that want this topic to be discussed now, there's still some people that do not want this conversation.
The problem is there's nothing to suggest that they truly are benevolent.
People say, well, you know, they're like – they don't want us to nuke ourselves.
Well, you know, I discussed it in what I wrote that – There's no data to suggest that.
They didn't stop us from dropping atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and vaporizing 500,000 living souls.
They didn't stop us when we started developing nuclear weapons from the atomic age.
They didn't stop the proliferation of nuclear weapons.
They didn't stop the testing in the Nevada range of atomic and nuclear weapons.
And now, how many countries have atomic weapons and nuclear weapons?
A lot, right?
They didn't stop...
Chernobyl.
They didn't stop Fukushima.
They didn't stop Three Mile Island.
So to say that they're here to help us I'm not sure there's data.
People say, well, you know, in Minot and in North Dakota and Montana, the UFOs came in and they interfered with our nuclear weapons and they brought the entire Echo flight offline.
Which, by the way, I have the government report on that if you want it.
But in Russia, a lot of people don't know, they turned them on, right?
So that's equally scary.
They're interfering with our nuclear capability, whether to attack or to defend ourselves.
So this is a—I don't know if you remember the hearing, congressional hearing that occurred last year where the— With David Grush?
Nope, the other one, with Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence, Ronald Moultrie, and some people from the Navy— And I think it was Congressman Gallagher that asked the very specific question.
And he said, are you aware of UFOs interfering with our nuclear capabilities?
And the response was something like, no, not really familiar with it.
Never heard of it.
And then the question was, I think, we asked specifically at these locations.
And the government's response was, no, not familiar with it.
Here's the actual report from the Department of Defense.
This is the actual intelligence report that was released through FOIA. There's a gentleman out there who runs a site called The Black Vault.
His name is John Greenwald.
He's probably the World Authority on Freedom of Information Act.
And he has a wealth of data that is out available to the public that he has received from the government.
This is one of those documents.
This is the document that our own government has no idea apparently exists.
So obviously there's some people that don't want this to be released, and obviously there's some people that think that the general public has a right to know.
Now, from a military perspective, and I just want to caveat, I don't agree with this, but I can respect the understanding.
You, sir, are a general, and I say – We cannot prove that they're not here to do something bad.
But what we do know is that they can interfere.
They're very interested in our military capabilities, and they have interfered with our nuclear capabilities, right?
From a military perspective, that looks an awful lot like something we call IPB, Initial Preparations of the Battle Space, or perhaps even ISR, Intelligence Surveillance and Reconnaissance.
Whenever we're going to go into a foreign country and invade, we do long-range surveillance.
We want to know how the enemy operates, how they react.
So even if there's a 2% chance, 5% chance that these things are here to do something Malevolent, right?
Then we probably should not tip our hands to the fact that we are aware of it publicly because what happens the moment that the bad guys in a foreign country find our surveillance team over the border?
We've got 12 hours we've got to invade because the element of surprise is now over.
So some may feel in the government the mere fact of acknowledging this, if there is some sort of malintent, may push up artificially a clock That exists somewhere for these things to say, uh-oh, okay, the foolish humans are now – the cat's out of the bag.
They know we're here.
We need to go in now for whatever reason they may have.
So that is the military mindset potentially of some of these individuals who want to keep this secret.
People are still paying their mortgages and going to PTA meetings and And after the 2017 New York Times report, which was probably one of the biggest moments in UFO disclosure, because it was in the New York Times.
And then you see something like that in the New York, especially in the New York Times in 2017. People really respected it.
I mean, how many topics can you go to Congress and have that's not polarizing, right?
This is one of the only ones where you can literally have Congressman Burchette and Congresswoman AOC side by side agreeing that this is important.
It's a very rare opportunity.
And so, you know, my concern, I'm doing this because I believe it's the right thing to do.
And my concern is that We're at a point now where I've said before, you know, secrets aren't like a fine wine where the longer you keep a cork on it, the better it gets.
I think secrets are perishable.
I think they have a shelf life.
I think they're like vegetables in your refrigerator.
And there comes a point where if you leave them there too long, they start to rot and they start to stink.
And it becomes a big mess to clean up, right?
And so that's my perspective.
And what I'm trying to do is...
Give the government an ability to work its way out of a corner that it's put itself into for the last several decades and with no seeming way out, right?
The problem is there are, though, real legal issues.
So let's say you have, again, these cups forgive my analogies.
You have two aerospace companies, Company A, Company B. And let's say I am in the Department of Defense back in the 50s, 60s, and I come across this interesting technology.
I have no idea what the hell it is.
It just came out of the sky.
And I go to Company A and I said...
Tell me what you can figure out about that, right?
10 years later, Company A becomes a multi-billion dollar aerospace company.
Company B goes bankrupt, 200 people lose their jobs, and now people who have stock investors in that company lose their money, right?
Unfair advantage.
Keep in mind, you're supposed to have fair competition in the US government.
So if you give an unfair advantage to Company A, To be, you're talking a serious liability.
There's SEC violations there.
There's all sorts of concerns one has to pay attention to because someone somewhere gave an unfair advantage to one company over another.
So there are legal liabilities that we have to recognize.
It's not just clear-cut, okay, forgive and forget.
There's going to have to be some additional protection and understanding for if that occurred, we need to figure out how we deal with that as well.
Bring the guys in and go, what the fuck is this thing?
Yeah.
You kind of have to.
Otherwise, what else would you do?
I mean, how else do you find out how these things work?
And if you were going to do it in a secretive manner, you would have to bring it to defense contractors, because those are the only people that are capable of making things.
They make your jets.
They make the, you know, every stealth bomber, whatever the fuck it is.
And he got me really way back in with his documentary of Bob Lazar, Flying Saucers, whatever the actual title of it is.
But that documentary is fantastic.
And it's essentially going over Bob Lazar's story from the 1980s to today.
Which he's told the exact same story, which is nuts that you have one giant lie your whole life.
Like, come on.
There's a lot of weirdness to the story, obviously.
Like there is with everything.
There's a lot of people that want to discredit his background and all sorts of other things.
But the reality of what he's saying is essentially what we're seeing in these crafts, which is very strange.
So he described how these things worked and how they moved and how they would turn sideways and sort of like project this whatever this Reactor that they have inside of them and he talked about this element element 115 They have a stable version of it that was essentially theoretical at the time in 1980 no one really knew whether or not that thing actually even exists 89 or whatever it was and that they would douse this thing project radiation upon it and it would create this
Warp this gravity warp this this thing that allowed this This craft to move in ways that defied our understanding.
You know, but now, you know, obviously now we have carbon fiber, we have a bunch of different ways of constructing things, but back then, he didn't know what the fuck that thing was.
He said it looked like it had all been melted, like, into place, like, that it had been, like, almost like smooth, like wax, like melted wax, and that it had no instrumentation inside of it, and it was designed for very small things, like something that was, like, three feet tall.
And that all these things seemed to operate through the being itself, had some sort of connection to the craft, some sort of strange way of interfacing with the craft that didn't have anything to do with pulling levers and moving things.
Well, better than anybody can because the first guy who, the first Neuralink patient we had him on and he said essentially it's like having an aimbot because you don't miss.
You look at the thing you're trying to shoot at and instantaneously your crosshairs go there.
So if we can do that now, is it really that far of a stretch to think that someone who's a little more advanced than us, our friends from out of town, That's the way to do it.
That's more efficient, right?
The speed of the processing of the brain, the processes of the brain is much faster.
It takes us longer to then have to mechanically use our hands and manipulate and do things.
This is almost – not quite, but almost instantaneous.
Modern warfare – not the game, but actual modern warfare – is beginning to turn to And we're using AI and all these other augmentation to enhance performance.
And so I don't think that's out of the realm of possibility.
I'm so glad you mentioned this because this goes back to the whole stigma and taboo issue.
I used to have a slideshow, and I still have it somewhere, and I would discuss the Latin word prefix of para, P-A-R-A. And it means above or beside.
And so what I would do is show up, I would say the word parachute, and I'd ask people, what do you think of when you hear the word parachute?
And people would describe, obviously, something that deploys over your head and hopefully you hit the ground with a thump and not a thud, right?
But something that's normal, we use every day.
And then I say, what about the word paramedic?
And then people would look at it and say, well, I think of a first responder.
Someone goes, you know, some sort of medical lifesaver that's going to be there for your benefit.
And then I say the word...
When I say the word paranormal, what do you think?
And people will stop for a second.
Maybe they kind of give you a little sly smile and say, what do you mean?
I say, what do you mean?
I mean that, paranormal.
The only reason why you're reacting the way you are, because you've been conditioned that the word paranormal...
Cookie stuff.
Cookie stuff.
When in reality, in science, by definition, everything is paranormal until it becomes normal.
The cell phone that I use every day 50 years ago, absolutely paranormal.
And so I would go through this exercise of things that were once considered paranormal.
For example, when the Inca first saw the Spaniards, the conquistadores, coming from the reconquering, They saw them on the shores of the beach and they saw these humans in armor riding on a horse.
And they assumed, because they'd never seen a horse before, they assumed it was a single entity, it was a single monster.
And that for them was paranormal.
They didn't understand it was actually a human riding on a horse with, you know, metal skin.
Same thing with acupuncture.
I remember a time when I was growing up as a kid, people thought Eastern medicine acupuncture was nonsense.
Well, now at the Veterans Administration, the VA for some of my guys in combat, they actually prescribe acupuncture as therapy.
It's not paranormal, right?
And so there's all these examples.
In history where we think something is kooky and weird when in reality it's not.
It's just we don't understand it yet and we have done such a good job of stigmatizing this conversation that the moment you even say the word paranormal or you say the word UFO or anything like that, people are conditioned without even thinking about it.
It's reflexive.
To react a certain way.
And we have to first deprogram ourselves first a little bit before we can start moving forward.
Okay, how do we destigmatize this conversation?
Well, first of all, what's kooky?
You know, what do you think is kooky about something that's in our airspace that's performing in ways that we can't replicate?
You know, that people say, well, you know, wait a minute, we spend millions if not billions of dollars Putting a probe on Mars to try to find microbial life.
And by the way, it looks like that may happen.
It looks like there actually may be some evidence to suggest that.
We spend lots of money trying to find techno signatures of intelligent life, radio signatures, in our own Milky Way, right?
Well, is it possible within the four and a half billion years our planet's been here that maybe intelligent life maybe found us first?
Is it possible?
Could be.
You know, we have to stop putting these limitations.
Joe, when I was in the medical program, when I was learning to be microbiology and immunology in college, we learned from our professor that Homo sapiens sapiens as a modern species has been around roughly between 100,000 to 200,000 years.
Now, I'm not an expert, but that's what they say.
It was only the Greeks 2,000 years ago that introduced the idea that there's only two types of life forms on this planet.
And you are either A, a plant, or B, you're an animal.
And it wasn't the last 300 years.
So if you look at a 24-hour clock, roughly the last five minutes in the 24 hours, Towards midnight, we discovered another form of life that is neither plant nor animal that's been here with us on this planet, and that is the world of fungus.
During the Renaissance and the days of Newton, we discovered that there was this other life form we've been sharing all along.
And so we pat ourselves on the shoulder, and it wasn't the last 120 years—think about it—the last 10 seconds of our existence on this planet, so to speak, in a 24-hour clock as a modern species.
We actually discovered the true dominant life form on this planet.
And in fact, if you take all the biomass of every plant and the biomass of every animal and the biomass of every fungus and add it all together, it still will not equal the biomass of this hidden kingdom of life that's actually the dominant life form on this planet.
And that wasn't until we were able to curve glass and look through a little steel tube and famously shout, little beasties, little beasties!
Did we discover the world of microorganisms?
That yes, live inside of you.
And yes, live on the skin of the ISS space station.
Yes, live miles underneath the Arctic ice, right?
That is the true dominant life form on this planet, and it always has been.
And it wasn't until the last 120 years we discovered that.
So is it possible that there is something else that is just as normal to this world?
Is it possible?
Well, the answer is a resounding yes, of course it's possible, because we're always discovering new ways life can exist.
When I was growing up as a kid, I was told, absolutely, as a matter of fact, all life form is derived from photosynthesis, ultimately, when you go all the way down.
It turns out that's not true.
It wasn't until we discovered in the deepest depths of our oceans where these things called black smokers, we discovered there are creatures that thrive with no light and they thrive off of something called chemosynthesis, a completely different way to metabolize energy to sustain life, right?
So every time we put Mother Nature in a little box, she always finds a way to wiggle her way out.
And I think that's important when having this conversation because If there's one thing we know as human beings, we're usually wrong at first.
We have evolved more in the last 150 years than we have in the last 150,000 years.
Sure, yeah.
For me, I find when people say, well, space is so huge and, you know, is it possible that things are coming from outer space?
My response has always been the same.
Look, I don't know where they're from.
I just know that they're here.
And could they be from outer space?
Sure.
They can be from inner space or even the space in between.
And I say that because the universe is far more complex than we give it credit for.
Every time, you know, there was a time we had Newtonian physics, we thought there was a solution, then all of a sudden Einstein comes along and we realize that, wait, space and time are actually connected, and then everything's relative, and all of a sudden now you have quantum mechanics, which is, you know, this spooky action at a distance, right, where the whole universe is behaving in a way that it shouldn't, and yet that looks like the real way the universe works.
I often tell people, as humans, we have only five fundamental senses that we can base our reality upon.
And if you can't touch it, taste it, hear it, smell it, etc., we can't interact with it.
And so where I live in Wyoming, we have these beautiful night skies, kind of like you have here in your studio here.
300 days of unoccluded night skies.
And as beautiful as those night skies are, if you were to look at that same portion of the night sky through a radio telescope, We're good to go.
Interact with a very small sliver of the reality that we can perceive because we're humans.
But most of reality is actually beyond that.
And then, of course, you have scalability issues.
The universe is immensely huge.
And what scientists are now saying, if you look in any direction, you can see roughly within the visible, let me emphasize, visible horizon of our universe is about 13.9 billion light years, plus or minus.
So that means in any direction I can see 13.9 billion light years with the right equipment.
What's a light year?
Well, it's as fast as light can travel in a year.
Well, light travels pretty fast.
In fact, it travels at 186,000 miles per second.
So seven and a half times around our planet in one second.
So imagine how far you can go in a year.
Now, multiply that by 13.9 billion.
And that, by scientists' estimation, so that if the universe end-to-end of our visible, we're stuck in the middle, is roughly 27 billion light years.
Scientists are now saying that's only possibly only 10% of the known universe because the universe is so big and so vast and so far, light will never have time to reach Earth.
So that's at a minimum 100 billion light years, right?
And so we are this little speck in the middle.
And as crazy as that is to even try to conceive, if you compare one atom inside the hill, one hydrogen atom, Avogadro's number, right?
One times 10 to the negative umpteen all the way down.
It is roughly the same level of scale As we are to the universe, meaning that atom is the size of a human as we are the size of the universe, as we are a human to the size of the universe.
So there is this, and we as humans can only interact, plus or minus, with one order of magnitude up or down.
Otherwise, the universe is simply too big or too small.
Meaning most of the universe and reality lies in those scales.
As human beings, right, how many times do we fly over the Serengeti in a helicopter, right, and Let's say you want to monitor the health of a particular, you know, a herd of elephants, right?
And so what happens?
A wildebeest, we fly over, we pick one, we shoot it with a tranquilizer, it falls asleep, we go down, we do some tests, pull its blood.
Now think about it from the perspective of the wildebeest, right?
It wakes up, kind of meanders over to the watering hole and says, Bill, you're not going to believe this man, but...
Something out of the sky came down and all of a sudden they were touching me and, you know, I woke up and my butt hurt, right?
What the hell was that?
To this day, even in China, when we go into a zoo, right, and we have the panda bear exhibits, what do we do?
So we don't disrupt the pandas.
We wear panda suits.
Now, it sounds silly, but you can actually get online and see zookeepers wearing panda suits because they don't want to...
They want to interfere as least as possible with the natural...
Flora and fauna, they're inside the exhibit, right?
And these underwater crafts, like this enormous one that apparently was near this oil rig, how many of them have been, has there been more than one of those videos?
And then I'll tell you about a conversation I had without attribution because I don't want to get in trouble.
A lot of people are familiar with the Air Force's program called the Fast Walker Program, which is a program that was started by the Air Force, among other things, was to detect UFOs.
That's a fact.
Actually, that was part of their mission, to detect a lot of things, adversarial technology, but UFOs was one of them.
It was called the Fast Walker Program.
There was some information that was released publicly about a similar program the Navy has.
I can't talk about it because I don't have approval to talk about it.
But obviously they're interested, because they have equities underwater, they're interested in if there's anything underwater that can perform beyond anything we have.
And I remember speaking to one individual who pulled me aside very privately and he said, We were tracking this thing, doing, and I won't say the exact speed, but hundreds and hundreds of knots underwater.
Let me give you another great, great event that occurred.
And I'll talk about this because it's not classified.
The portions that might be, I don't know about, so it should be fine.
There's an individual who I'm aware of who was a helo pilot, a helicopter pilot back in the late 90s in the Caribbean.
And they were doing missile recovery.
So what happened is that the Navy would test fire missiles and then they kind of run out of fuel.
They hit the water and they sink.
At a predetermined time, they pop to the surface.
We grab it with a helicopter, bring it back to shore, and we test it for telemetry and make sure that this cruise missile was doing what it was supposed to do.
So they're out there in the helicopter, frogman hanging down the line.
You got the helo pilot, you got the crew chief and the co-pilot looking all down at the bubble.
And as they're about to grab this cruise missile out of the ocean, something huge and round, and what was described to me as black as a devil, starts to rise to the surface.
The water begins to churn, very much like David Fravor's description of the Tic Tac incident and the roiling water.
The frogman is so freaked out, he's literally trying to climb the line back up.
Like, if a civilization was trying to alert another civilization about its presence...
Wouldn't it, like, go towards whatever military vehicles it has and show itself?
And then I would imagine that if they understand human beings, they understand our psychology, and they understand that some giant size of an island, black as the devil, circular craft that lands next to the Pentagon would fucking end the world.
We would freak out.
No one would know what to do.
That would be stock market crash, mass chaos.
No one would know what to do.
To introduce yourself, I would imagine, would be gradual over a long period of time to allow this civilization to accept the fact these things exist and then slowly but surely show versions of themselves.
But, you know, the counter argument to that is that's a very human thing, right?
We have, as humans, we always, it's almost innate.
We look at everything through anthropomorphic eyes.
We look at, you know, our pet dogs and we give them human names and we do things like that because we assign human value to things because we have intentions and motivations.
But most of nature isn't that way.
Like, for example, when a shark Bites a surfer.
He's not wanting to hurt the surfer.
He's just hungry.
The shark's hungry.
I don't care if you're a seal or whatever.
I'm not trying to inflict pain.
I just want to feed my belly.
Intent and motivation is a very human thing, and we have to – I don't want to say resist the urge because it's almost impossible to do it, but we have to recognize that there are – There are things that may exist that don't have human motivation, meaning maybe they don't care about sensitizing us.
Maybe they do.
But maybe it's like a computer, right?
Maybe it's binary.
Maybe there's some sort of binary thought process, just information in and information out.
So that's one of the aspects I've always been very careful with is to assign human traits to something that is...
But would you have to assign human traits to it or would you have if you you could look at it from the perspective of These things are aware of our psychology They're aware of how we function and they're aware of the fragility of our worldview No, good point.
You don't have to have human intention to have a strategy for doing the least amount of harm to this emerging civilization.
Let me reinforce your point, because there's examples of that, my background being science, in nature.
You know, when lionesses stalk the zebras, You know, they get very low into the grass.
They don't want to be seen, right?
They're not motivated necessarily because they don't want to spook the herd, but they do it.
It's almost instinctual, right?
It's part of their DNA, part of their wiring to have a low profile, low observability, and to get closer to their target, whether it's prey or anything else.
So you're right.
I mean, there are examples in nature that also can suggest that.
And obviously, if they are these super-intelligent creatures, they evolve to become super-intelligent creatures.
So there's probably some sort of universal process that takes place amongst all intelligent, creative life.
That has a lust for innovation.
They consistently make better and better versions of these flying crafts until they figure out how to make this warp drive thing that these things apparently have.
Another thing that's odd is that you see the same kind of things that Kenneth Arnold saw in 1950. You see the same kind of things today.
It's almost like You know, going somewhere in the 1950s and seeing a 55 Chevy, and then in 2024 seeing another 55 Chevy.
They're still driving around in 55 Chevys?
Like, what the fuck?
Well, they do do that in Cuba, right?
But that's just because they don't have access to other cars.
Whether it's bacterial life, whether it's animal life or human life, there are certain biological functions to procreate, multiply, and continue to expand, right?
So is that a universal norm?
Is that part of, like, fractals and geometry throughout the universe?
Is that part of the blueprint of all life?
Or is it only specific to life here on Earth?
And that's a great question because there's probably arguments to suggest that, yeah, there probably is a natural blueprint for physics in the universe.
They're probably, since life has to abide by physics, probably a natural, potentially natural blueprint for the evolution of all life.
Whether, again, bacterial or animal or human or anything else, non-human.
It makes sense that everything moves into greater levels of complexity, from single-celled organisms to human beings that pilot drones.
It just keeps going in the same general direction, observably here.
And if the universe is infinite, that means there's infinite versions of what we're seeing here with us that exists throughout the cosmos and probably in infinite steps along the way, right?
A hundred years from now, a thousand years from now.
Well, not to make light of it, but I'll tell you recently.
So I've learned over the years there's nothing more expensive than a cheap lawyer.
So I've got a couple good lawyers that I work with on just contractual stuff, and one of them is named Ivan Hanel.
I call him the bull.
And I've learned to appreciate the infinite complexity of law and legal, right?
So if there is this natural progression as we're talking about life, I mean, we even see it in our own human interactions, right?
This intricate complexity of how things work and how even in the way we behave with each other socially.
When I was in the government, you could look at a terrorist link analysis and And that link analysis still follows those fractal patterns, that the patterns in our lungs, the patterns of lightning, the patterns of super-Magellanic clouds and galaxies, super-clusters of galaxies, all have that same pattern.
And it's not just a physical pattern.
It's a social pattern, right?
And so, again, not to make joke of it, but I'm learning that it's beyond these patterns or beyond just Physical patterns, you know, even in something as silly but fundamental as law, there are these patterns that continue to spin off and whatnot.
So, yeah, I can appreciate that.
I think we're at a point now as a species where we probably should be having these conversations.
And I'll also say this, Joe, there are parts of this conversation I don't feel the government has any place.
There is definitely a national security conversation here.
But the conversation we're having, as you can tell, is far beyond national security, right?
We're talking philosophical, psychological, sociological, theological implications that I'm not sure I want my government necessarily dictating for me what I should think about this.
Well, the government's supposed to be working for us, ultimately.
And they are supposed to be us.
You know, and the problem is when you have access to information that's above and beyond the normal person's realm, That could affect everyone on this planet, this understanding that we are not alone.
But not only now, we're probably not even alone here.
It's not even that something is visiting us.
Something's probably here all the time.
You know, and this is the main thought about these underwater vehicles.
I think we have, again, this goes back to the original point of every time we try to put Mother Nature in a box, she always finds a way to wiggle her way out of it and prove us wrong.
If the one thing we're right about is that we're always wrong.
Speaking of going that far back, I got to think that when people are delving into this stuff, they look at ancient scriptures and these different depictions of things, whether it's the Vyamanas in the Hindu texts and whether it's in the Bhagavad Gita.
There's all these different stories in Ezekiel and the Bible.
There's things that seem to If I was a person living thousands of years ago and I encountered a flying saucer or encountered some spaceship from another planet, I would probably describe it in a way that they're describing it.
So I can tell you when I went to Italy, I spoke to one of the senior...
I think it was a Monsignor...
one of the senior Vatican academics.
And he said to me, he says, look...
The Vatican doesn't have a problem with this topic.
This is something, in fact, up until the 1600s, it was heretical to presume or assume that mankind was the only, if you will, incarnation of God, representation of God.
But in essence, you're putting limitations on the dominion of what God can and can't do.
And there are these scrolls, in fact, that are in the Vatican archives that discuss, it's a conversation between a Roman soldier and a Roman general, Where they describe, there's something called eclipus.
Eclipus in Latin means like sun, eclipse, right?
It's the shape of the Roman shield.
And they talked about these flaming Roman shields in the sky that would follow them from battle space to battle space.
And Mr. Jacques Vallée could probably expound much more upon that than I can, but this was just a brief conversation I had with someone there.
And when you look at what the Vatican is, I mean, really, it's probably the world's oldest, most capable intelligence organization because they have priests around the world that people will report miracles to, right, and confessions to, and eventually that gets filtered up to the Vatican.
So, you know...
Talk about, you know, the world's first CIA and KGB. It was Vatican, baby.
Those guys had it going on.
And so, no wonder they have all this archival information, and some of it relates to UAP. Wow.
And even, you know, old, old, old sailor accounts, you know, of, you know, people say, well, you know, old sailors also talked about, you know, big giant kraken and stuff like that.
But there was always an element of truth to it.
Now, we realize there are giant squid in the Pacific, right?
Yeah, there were some reports of some interesting lights that the crew had reported, and it was actually, he put it down in his logbook, something about some interest.
Now, some folks will come back and say, well, that's St. Elmo's Fire, which it absolutely could be.
In certain environmental conditions, there is this weird greenish-blue plasma glow that will often sometimes be seen on the tips of wingtips on aircraft.
There's some really good pictures of it online.
And even on the old mariner ships up towards the sails and the masts.
And they believe it's...
It has to do with static charge, and under certain environments, it creates this energized plasma, and you can see it.
That a being transcends its physical limitations of biological reality, right?
So the biological evolution that led us to become homo sapiens over the course of, you know, X amount of millions of years, that's a very slow process.
But technological innovation and technological progress is very quick, very quick, especially when you add in artificial intelligence.
Yeah, so if something comes along that Maybe that thing needs...
A thing with a soul that has a creative desire, that has a lust for innovation and continues to make better and better things.
And maybe that thing only exists in biology.
And maybe the problem with artificial life is that it has no motivation.
And that we have, especially if it's self-programmable, right?
So one of the very bizarre things that was recently discovered about artificial intelligence, they gave artificial intelligence a certain amount of time to code something, to figure something out.
And when it didn't have enough time, it changed its code to give itself more time.
And also some of the great things that human beings do.
But maybe it also doesn't have any desire to create.
Maybe the only way for its kind of life to exist Is for a human being, a biological thing that's super intelligent in comparison to the rest of the animals on this planet, that innovates to the point where it creates this artificial life.
Like, you got to wonder why we are so different than every other creature in that we have this insane, insatiable desire to change our environment.
Constantly build bigger skyscrapers and to move the earth and we're constantly inventing new technology.
I mean, it seems to be an instinct that's a part of us.
And if this gradual progression of life is life goes from intelligent biological life to super intelligent, whatever it is, whatever kind of technology creates it, that life is not as simple as...
This natural selection model that we have here that we think applies to life.
This is a type of life and then there's a life that this thing creates.
Well, you know, evolution isn't just a physical thing, is it?
Evolution is the ability to change within one's environment over time.
And that's a fascinating concept you bring up because some speculate That it is inevitable that human beings will eventually evolve into something.
We're just a link in a much longer chain.
And that all intelligent life potentially goes through this process.
And that this is a natural process where eventually we actually make ourselves extinct.
Not in the way where we kill ourselves, but we wind up creating a life form, whether it's AI or we start enhancing ourselves with more and more machine interface.
And, you know, life doesn't have to necessarily be organic, right?
You could have potential.
I mean, silicon is very, very close to carbon in some cases.
So, you know, is it possible that life, it is destiny for all life eventually to evolve itself out of existence and bring in or usher in a new type of life form?
Is it possible?
I mean, certainly from a technological perspective, I mean, ask Elon Musk.
It seems that we're We're making a lot of advancements right now to augment the human experience.
And given, as you said, how technology progresses exponentially, very quickly, in the next 200 years, I mean, we might be there.
Not to my knowledge, and I sure hope not, because I don't think the government...
This is a conversation.
This is where I go back to.
This is a conversation that involves a lot of people, you know, whether it's your priest or your rabbi or your imam or it is your philosophy teacher at the university.
I think we're getting into an area now that is beyond national security.
And I'm honestly, Joe, I'm not comfortable with my government taking that aspect on because, frankly, I don't trust my government to manage what I should think about something.
Tell me what is.
I'm OK with.
Don't tell me how to think about it.
Don't tell me how to process that, you know, because now you're now you're overstepping your bounds.
Well, in fact, it's illegal, especially in our democracy.
This type of stuff is supposed to be discussed with certain members of Congress and certain elements of the executive branch.
And when somebody, I don't care if you're in the government or in a religion or anything like that, this goes to the fundamental pillar of something that agrees me, which is corruption.
Now, when I say corruption, let me backtrack a little bit.
My father recently died this last Father's Day.
Not this one, but the one before.
And I had the privilege of knowing he was sick, and so we took a road trip down to Miami about a month and a half before he died.
And he never told me he was sick, but I knew something wasn't right.
I knew my father for a long time, and something wasn't right.
He started losing weight, and I could see he wasn't eating as much, and there were telltale signs, and he didn't want to tell me.
And I asked my father almost flippantly, I said, I think we were probably somewhere by St. Louis.
And I said, Dad, what is the greatest threat to humanity?
To humans?
What is the greatest threat?
Now, I say it flippantly because I'm thinking, you know, terrorism, right?
This and that.
My father thought for a second.
He looks at me and says, Son, it's corruption.
And I said, what do you mean corruption?
Like financial corruption?
Governmental corruption?
He says, no.
Corruption at its heart is when you are willing to...
Bypass your own moral code, your own ethics for something else.
And whether it's financial corruption, religious corruption, governmental corruption, or even moral corruption, when you start to compromise on your own values, it's a very quick downward spiral to utter chaos.
And he know that firsthand because my father was in the Bay of Pigs invasion.
He was a political prisoner of Castro.
He actually fought with Castro against Batista.
And then when Castro went communist, my father joined the folks here and the friendly folks at the CIA and was part of the invasion of the Bay of Pigs.
He spent two years in Castro's prisons being tortured.
So when he came to this country, this country offered us opportunities that no other country could or would.
And the reason why Cuba failed was because of corruption.
And he said, look, corruption will be the end of all.
And it's a very quick downward spiral with democracy that if democracy becomes corrupt, you now have tyranny, right?
And so every time someone in the government is willing to compromise a little bit on the value of what it means to serve the American people and they forget that, they become corrupt.
And that actually erodes the very essence of what democracy is and what this country is about.
And that is why it is so important that the individuals in our government that don't want to have this conversation and don't want to talk to Congress and are making the unilateral decision on your behalf and the American taxpayer on my behalf That's wrong.
They don't have the right to do that.
There is a process of rules and laws we have in this country that we've all agreed to are going to abide by, and that includes them.
And they don't have the right to bypass that.
Even if they think they're doing it for the right reason, I disagree with that.
I think this democracy only works because we all agree it works, right?
And the moment you begin to compromise on that...
All of democracy is at risk.
And I mean that sincerely.
It's not a slow downward spiral.
It's quick.
And you can hit rock bottom very, very quickly.
And the only reason why this government works is because we all have faith and a commitment to what we consider are the American values and serving the American people and, you know, for the people, by the people.
So I think it's very dangerous when elements in the government, and I don't want to villainize the whole government because the government's full of great people.
They do great things.
They keep us safe.
So I'm talking about the minority few.
Some of these people who have actually gone after me will probably continue to come after me to try to discredit me and everything else, despite the volumes of documentation that I have in my possession and others, because they don't want to have the conversation and they are happy with the status quo.
And to me, that is a greater threat than any UAP could ever have on humanity.
The greatest threat is how we perceive ourselves and what we are willing to do to keep this a secret in violation of the commitment and and and what we have done to we've sworn in some cases to uphold the values of this country and I think that's a concern for me and that's why I don't want certain elements having this conversation of what this means you know the bigger macro level conversation because I don't think they're qualified I'm not qualified I know that I'm damn sure they're not qualified
either.
So this is why I think this type of national level conversation is so important.
At the end of the day, it's not up to me.
People say, Lou, what do you think?
You know, tell what I think.
It doesn't matter what I think.
What matters is what you think.
Here's the information.
Here's the data.
You figure it out.
Don't ask me what this means because I'm not entitled to that.
I didn't earn that privilege.
And I would definitely never take it away because that is sacred.
That's you.
That's up to you to decide for yourself.
And this is part of my frustration with this overall conversation because there are elements that don't want you to have this conversation.
Joe, this has been fantastic and truly, truly an honor and privilege.
You have one hell of a responsibility.
You are...
Look, I got to tell you, I don't ever get nervous doing an interview.
You were the first one and probably the only one I will ever have been nervous coming in just simply because not because of me because of you the responsibilities you have on your shoulders to have a communicate you reach a global audience people are listening to this conversation right now and by the way they're part of this conversation very much so right that is an enormous responsibility you have a voice in some cases That exceeds presidents.
The technology you now have available to your fingertips and this wonderful staff you have, you are influencing the world.
And I can't imagine that type of responsibility.
I mean, there are world leaders that don't have the voice you have.
And so for me, it is a profound, profound honor and privilege to be with you here today and your wonderful audience.
You know, if I never see you again, I wish you the best of luck.
You're doing America a great service.
Be honest.
Be candid.
Speak your mind.
That's all I can say as a little chicken here in the United States.
You've got big shoulders, man.
You've got a big weight, a lot of responsibility on your back.