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Nov. 28, 2023 - The Joe Rogan Experience

02:08:27

Joe Rogan Experience #2069 - Dr. Shawn Baker

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dr shawn baker

01:09:11

joe rogan

56:32

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jamie vernon

00:08

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!
		The Joe Rogan Experience.
		Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.
		Good.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		What's up, Sean?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Good to see you.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Good to be back, Joe.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You're still alive.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You've been eating nothing but meat and you're still alive.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I am still alive.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Fucking doubters be gone.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Hey, Joe, before we get started, I just want to say thank you for, one, for the stem cell stuff, but also for, you know, just having the conversations that other people are not willing to have.
		And, you know, we've...
		I see where they try to cancel you and all the BS and, you know, you didn't have to do that, but you, you know, let other people have discussions so we're not being censored.
		So just in case other people...
		I'm sure you've been told that before.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you.
		I appreciate that.
		It's a weird time, man.
unidentified		It really is.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		First of all, it's a weird time that a guy like me has a show, which is bizarre.
		That this kind of, you know, that I'm a source of information in some sort of strange way because...
		That's certainly not what I set out to do.
		Just along the line, you know, I'm curious.
		I wanted to talk to people, you know, including you and this diet.
		And, you know, I tell people, I'm not strict with my carnivore diet.
		Like Saturday night I had sushi.
		But I'll tell you, I felt like shit afterwards.
unidentified		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I ate a ton of it.
		I ate so much, I'm a glutton.
		But all that rice, I was like, oh!
		It just makes me realize how much better I feel when I only eat carnivore.
		When I just eat mostly meat, I feel so much better.
		I mean, maybe it's anecdotal, maybe it's just me and you, and many other people that do it, but...
		There's something to it, but you're an extreme example because you have been doing it now for how many years?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		So, I'm starting my eighth year.
		So, just...
		Eighth year?
		Yeah.
		So, when I came to see you last time, it was almost six years ago.
		So, I had just finished seven years now.
		So, yeah, it's been a while.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And people should know that you're actually a doctor.
		You're an orthopedic surgeon.
		And you didn't at one point in time they took your license away because you were providing medical information, but you got it back?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was kind of an interesting thing.
		So when I was practicing medicine, busy orthopedic surgeon, you know, plugging away, doing a thing, and then I started realizing, hey, I can have people avoid surgery.
		By changing their diet.
		Their pain went away.
		I was like, you don't need surgery.
		Well, that is not what hospitals want you to do.
		They want you to, you know, keep the engines turning, so to speak.
		And so I, you know, said, hey, look, I want to practice some lifestyle stuff.
		And that ended up, you know, leading to a long battle with myself in the hospital.
		The hospital basically suspended my privileges and went to the state.
		The state said, hey, you can fight this, you know, in our sort of state medical board situation, or you can get independently evaluated.
		And I said, well, let me just get independently evaluated because I don't see eye to eye with the hospital.
		And so that was done.
		It was like right at the time when I saw you a couple days before.
		And they came back and said, there's nothing wrong with you.
		Go back to work.
		And so, I got that, and then I had to, you know, reapply to the board, reapply for a license.
		They granted my license, and I've renewed it three times since then.
		So I'm a licensed medical, you know, licensed doctor, you know, but I just, you know, right now I'm not actually actively practicing because I got frustrated with the medical system.
		I think our healthcare system has...
		Some serious, serious problems, you know, some serious conflicts of interest, some serious, I think the incentives for providing what I think is appropriate healthcare is misaligned.
		And so, you know, over the last few years, so we set up a company, which is called Rivero, and we're licensed in all 50 states.
		We have physicians all across the country, and we're basically We're set up to provide what I call actual healthcare, root cause medicine, get people off the medications, actually, you know, try and fix their disease and not just medicate everybody.
		Because we have such a system where everybody's just like, you know, you go to the doctor, you know, here's your diagnosis, here's your drugs, keep staying on the rest of your life, which I think is the wrong course.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What's the name of the company again?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		So the company's called Revero.
		R-E-V-E-R-O. And so we raise a bunch of money from crowdfunding and also a bunch of venture capitalists.
		And so we've been basically building that.
		We've got thousands of people that are basically on the waiting list.
		We launch in a couple weeks.
		And so, you know, so like I said, it's going to be something that I think will provide healthcare as it should be.
		You know, instead of, like I said, instead of just the symptom management, putting band-aids on stuff, actually getting people healthy, Because I think a lot of diseases are reversible, and we've seen that all the time.
		You know, we see that pretty frequently.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's one of the most fascinating things about this carnivore diet is how many, albeit anecdotal stories, you have of people that had all these different conditions, chronic pain, rheumatoid arthritis, chronic fatigue, all these different issues, skin issues, eczema, all these different things.
		That they were treating with medication, it wasn't working, they were experiencing side effects.
		They start eliminating everything from their diet except for meat, and all of a sudden these problems go away.
		I mean, there's too many of those stories for it to be ignored.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've been astounded by the number of just crazy, crazy things that have happened.
		And again, it's not that that is the most profound, rigorous type of science that you can do, but you can't ignore it at this point.
		There are literally...
		Probably hundreds of thousands of people now.
		I've been all over the world now talking about this.
		I get people from Germany and Greece and China and Japan and Africa that have all done this analysis.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Same thing.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Look, I was sick and now I'm not sick anymore.
		And so whether or not that is enough evidence to say this is a good treatment, I can't say that.
		But you can't deny it's happening.
		I've been trying to get research done.
		In fact, there was a study done out of Harvard University two years ago.
		I don't know if you saw that.
		So there's a guy named David Ludwig, who is a senior author.
		And David, I've talked to him.
		He is the most ethical, you know, just like he does not want any money from industry.
		He refuses to take anything.
		He's like, I want to make sure I do pure science.
		And they did a study and they looked at 2,000 people on the carnivore diet.
		And basically what they saw was...
		Like 95% of the people.
		Significant improvement across the board.
		Now, the thing that was interesting to me is that diabetics, we had like 225 diabetics in that population.
		92% of them came off all their insulin.
		These are all type 2s.
		That's insane.
		100% came off all their insulin.
		All these other injectable drugs, the GLP-1 receptor agonists, which we've heard so much about lately, you know, the ozempics and things like that.
		Semaglutide.
		Semaglutide, right.
		Came off something called a PCSK9 inhibitor.
		No, sorry, the SGLT2 inhibitors.
		84% came off their metformin.
		So it's just like, this is clearly a...
		At least at the very least a therapeutic tool and that's how I push this I don't tell like you know I wrote a book on this I didn't say humans are carnivores I said humans are opportunistic omnivores if we were if we were living in the Middle Ages and we came across we're out hunting mammoths and all of a sudden You know the ice ages were out and we came across a tree full of Twinkies.
		I mean we'd eat that right because you know we would but I mean it's and you know there's people there's obviously people that eat plants that aren't dead and are doing okay so we're omnivores but From a disease, you know, mitigation standpoint, I mean, a therapeutic carnivore diet is tremendously effective.
		I mean, it's one of the more effective things I've seen across the board.
		And so, at the very least, you know, you'd say, let's explore that aspect of it.
		Because, you know, like I said, there's people that are suffering.
		We've got so many people.
		I know we may talk about vegan, carnivore, you know, everything in between.
		But I think at the end of the day, everybody's eating processed garbage.
		We're just eating bullshit.
		I mean, and that is really...
		One of the problems, and the one thing, and you said this, Joe, when you eat this meat, you're like, I don't want that other bullshit, because you're actually satiated, and this is a thing that's, I think, problematic, because if you look at, interesting, there was a study that just came out now looking at The financial incentive for ultra-processed food.
		Why do we have this stuff?
		So you look at the big asset management groups.
		You've got BlackRock, you've got Vanguard, you've got State Street and Capital.
		I can't remember the full names on these, but those guys collectively...
		Own huge portions of Nestle, PepsiCo, all these other processed food companies.
		And they also have significant shares in pharmaceutical manufacturers.
		So you basically, you sicken the population by feeding them garbage, and then you just profit on their disease.
		And I think that's what's going on.
		And I think it's really unfortunate.
		And I think some people make an argument, is there a net benefit from feeding more people versus how many people are getting sick?
		And I think there's a point where, you know, the line goes, you know, if most people are getting sick from this and only a few people are benefiting, then you've kind of crossed that line of, you know, is it for the greater good?
		And then it becomes, you know, the realm of almost evil in my mind.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it started out with just trying to make money.
		I mean, that's what started out with the processed foods, and I think then they realized, well, now you're selling more medication to these people, so you make more money on top of that more money.
		I don't even think it's a conspiracy.
		I think it's just opportunity.
		I think they just look at profits, and that's what these corporations are established for.
		Their bottom line is they're supposed to make as much money as they can for their shareholders.
		That's their responsibility.
		Their responsibility is to have, like, a cute cartoon guy that sells you sugary cereal.
		Because, you know, when I was a kid, that's what I wanted.
		I wanted Cocoa Pops.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I wanted Captain Crunch.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		All that stuff.
		Yeah, I mean, there's a reason why all that garbage is, like, it's so addictive, it's so delicious, you know, and it's...
		It's clearly targeted for young people.
		Clearly.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, that paper that I talked about, and I think, you know, it's in that list that I give Jamie, but it basically says this is the whole thing.
		They make tremendous short-term profits for their shareholders, and that's why they do it.
		So, yeah, it's clearly financially driven.
		You can't blame them.
		I mean, this is what any business wants to do.
		This wants to be successful.
unidentified		Exactly.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		So it's about making money like everything is, really.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's what they do.
		I think the cutting the bullshit out is the biggest factor in this whole carnivore diet thing.
		I really do.
		I mean, I definitely think there's obviously meat itself, regardless of the bullshit and the propaganda, meat is the most nutrient-dense food you can eat.
		All this crap where they say that meat causes cancer.
		If meat caused cancer, most people would have cancer.
		95 plus percent of the population on Earth eats meat.
		And all this propaganda you hear about, you know, you're going to get cancer, diseases are going to go, all these different things.
		It does not seem to be the case in people that just eat meat.
		When you're looking at my experience, I have not, and again, anecdotal, I've never met anybody that went on this diet that didn't have a positive result.
		Everybody that I know that goes on this diet.
		Now, clearly...
		There's genetic differences.
		Some people have, definitely there's people that have that Lone Star Tick issue, where a buddy of mine has that.
		He got bit by a tick, and he developed an allergy to red meat.
		It's a real pain in the ass for him.
		And it went away.
		He had it for a year, and it went away, and it started to come back again.
		But that's rare.
		For most people, red meat is a very nutrient-dense food.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's absolutely clear.
		I mean, and your point is, you know, if you get rid of the garbage, you're going to have a benefit, whatever diet you're going.
		I think that's clear.
		And, you know, when we talk about, because you mentioned you're not totally strict, I am, you know, fairly strict, but I'm not religious about it.
		I don't sit there like, you know, for instance, my son's birthday was, you know, a couple days ago on Thanksgiving.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You get some cake?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I had a piece of pumpkin pie, man.
		So I hadn't had that in 10 years.
		But I'm like, you know, no big deal.
		I didn't die.
		But it's not, like I said, my diet literally is probably 98% red meat.
		I mean, I just eat steaks every day.
		It's kind of crazy.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, the videos are hilarious of you eating steaks, listening to vegan propaganda.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You have a big cutting board and a giant cleaver, and you're slicing off pieces of tri-tip while you're watching vegan propaganda and smiling.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's pretty fun to do that stuff.
		And I definitely, you know, like I said, if there's anybody that has, you know, like I said, if I'm wrong, I mean, it'll be clear that I've been eating meat, like, significantly for many, many years.
		I put a lot of that on video.
		But, you know, one of the interesting things, you know, because the backlash you often hear is, what about cholesterol?
		Because I think that is a really important thing.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I really wanted to talk about that.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, awesome.
		I think you saw that thing about the Oreo cookies.
		Did you see that?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I did.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, let's talk about that.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		So anyway, there's a little backstory on this.
		And last time I mentioned, I mentioned a guy named Dave Feldman.
		And he was a guy that, you know, he's an engineer, a pretty smart guy.
		And he goes on a low-carb, higher-fat diet.
		And he feels great.
		He's like, oh, my God.
		Everything feels great.
		But his cholesterol shoots through the roof.
		And he's like, oh, my God, I'm going to die, right?
		So he's freaked out about this stuff.
		And he starts looking into it very mechanistically and spending years and years and years studying this stuff.
		And finally puts together this sort of theory, and it's still theory, but there's a lot of evidence showing that it's probably likely true, called the lean mass hyper-responder, and there's something called a lipid energy model.
		What this Oreo cookie thing was is another guy is another researcher.
		He's a PhD from Oxford.
		He's also finishing his medical degree at Harvard.
		And his name is Nick Norwitz.
		And he basically said, look, this lipid energy model works like this.
		When you cut carbs low and you get lean, right?
		Your body says, hey, there's not a lot of energy in my cells.
		My liver glycogen isn't full.
		My muscles aren't full of energy.
		So I need to get energy there somehow.
		And so what happens is the liver starts sending fat out into the bloodstream.
		So you have energy to work, right?
		And so what he's showing is that if I just add Oreo cookies or some other energy dense, maybe junk food in there...
		The body will say, hey, I've got plenty of energy now, so the liver shuts down.
		It doesn't traffic the cholesterol anymore, or the triglycerides and the cholesterol.
		So that sort of validates what's going on here.
		But the question is, is it bad if my cholesterol is really high, but I'm fit, I'm lean, I don't have diabetes, I don't have pre-diabetes, I don't have insulin resistance.
		I don't have high blood pressure.
		You know, I'm otherwise metabolically healthy because you see these people.
		So you see they're lean athletes.
		You know, they go on a diet, like a carnivore diet or even a ketogenic diet, and they're like, I feel great.
		It's the best I've felt in years, but my cholesterol is through the roof, so I've got to stop.
		And so that's the real question.
		So, on December 8th, there's going to be a landmark study that's going to be presented by a guy named Matt Budoff, who's a cardiologist out of UCLA. I think he's attached to UCLA somewhere.
		And basically, what they did was they took...
		100 people, all who have sky-high cholesterol, we're talking like total cholesterol, 500, 600, 700 milligrams per deciliter.
		It's enough to give your doctor a heart attack.
		You walk in there with your cholesterol, it's like, 600, what the hell?
		So he's got all these patients, they're that.
		They are all otherwise metabolically healthy, though.
		None of them are diabetics, none of them have blood pressures, they're relatively lean.
		And what they did was they did high-level CT angiography, these people, looking really detailed at how much plaques in their blood vessels.
		And they're all older guys.
		They're like average age, like our age, like mid-50s, like mid-late 50s, right?
		So this is where you'd expect to start seeing heart disease.
		And when they did that scan, Almost none of them had any level of significant, you know, vascular disease.
		They were like clean, clean arteries.
		And so what they're doing is they're running them for a year, and then they're going to repeat the study, right?
		And say, in one year, has anything occurred?
		Now, the criticism of that will be that, oh, it takes 20 years to do that.
		But Matt Budoff is like the world-leading expert on how fast vascular disease develops, right?
		So he's a guy that designed the study.
		He knows this stuff.
		So he said a year will show us for sure if vascular disease is going to occur.
		So what they're doing on the 8th is they're showing the preliminary data that shows all these people have almost no heart disease, and they compare it to something called the Miami Heart data set, which is like the perfect data set for if you want to compare what's going on with vascular disease.
		And so in February, they'll finish up the collection of data, and then we'll get to see what happens after a year.
		Now, I suspect what will happen is they'll show No progression, little progression, or even reversal, which would be shocking, because all these people are saying cholesterol causes heart disease.
		Because if you listen to guys like, because I know you've got Peter on here, Peter A.T. on here, and he says, look, it's just a matter of how much cholesterol over how much time.
		If it's high for a long period of time, you're going to get heart disease.
		But if this turns out to be what I think it's going to show, which it likely will show, then that throws a monkey wrench in that whole theory, because it's like, wait a minute, maybe it's a dependent variable.
		Maybe if you're not fat, you know, out of shape, have high blood pressure and diabetes, that that LDL cholesterol being high is not as much of a problem as we thought it was, which is, I mean, that's paradigm shifting, quite honestly.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Where did the theory of LDL cholesterol being bad for you come from?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, that goes back into the, I mean, when they started looking at cholesterol, this is in rabbits, way back in like the 1920s or something like that.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		They started feeding rabbits high cholesterol diets and the rabbits got heart disease.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, rabbits don't really eat high cholesterol diets.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		No, they don't.
		They don't.
		It's an unnatural diet for them.
		But they started looking at, you know, the associational data started out back in the 50s when Eisenhower had his heart attack and everybody's freaking out because, you know, we saw a rise in heart disease, you know, 1940s, 1950s.
		And it's been, you know, it's been a number one killer in Western populations since then.
		And so a guy named Ancel Keys was one of the ones that started promoting that theory.
		They did, you know, associational studies where they say, well, look at these countries.
		They eat a lot of saturated fat and they have a high cholesterol and they die more commonly out of heart disease.
		And so that basically data has been done over and over again.
		I mean, they've done Mendelian randomization studies, which there's some problems with those types of things.
		They've done, you know, studies where they can show that, you know, we can lower cholesterol and cardiovascular disease decreases.
		So we know that, you know, that's the whole premise behind statin drugs.
		Some people think it's a pleomorphic effect or it's like a side effect, like maybe it's decreasing the inflammation.
		And by decreasing the inflammation, You're actually improving heart disease.
		But there's been...
		I mean, there's a ton of evidence that would point to, yes, that is what's going on.
		Now, what I would say is, again, you're looking at a general population.
		And the other thing is all-cause mortality.
		So, clearly, there's a lot of evidence that points to, like...
		Normally, they like your total cholesterol below 190, LDL below 100, something like that.
		But if we look at population studies and all-cause mortality, cancer, heart disease, dementia, infectious disease, so on and so forth, the people with higher cholesterol actually live longer.
		They're the ones that live longer.
		And so the question is, you know, maybe I won't get a heart attack, but I'm going to get cancer instead because my cholesterol is too low, perhaps.
		Now, the critics of that will say it's reverse causality.
		It's like, well, the only reason your cholesterol was low was because you had cancer, right?
		And cancer is making your cholesterol go down because cholesterol, LDL cholesterol, and some of the other lipoproteins actually have a function.
		They participate in our immune response.
		So it's there for a reason.
		It's not just for the hell of it, right?
		We have a reason for this stuff.
		But there's a plethora of studies on this stuff.
		Some of it's been paid for by the pharmaceutical industries, which, of course, there's a little bit of conflict of interest in some of that, I would imagine.
		But, again, if you talk to 99% of the cardiologists, they'll be on board with this.
		But like I said, this sort of population, which we never studied, we have no data on these people.
		It's like if you go on a carnivore diet, Joe, I know you've gotten lean, you feel good, probably your blood pressure's good, probably your glucose is good.
		Does that mean it's dangerous for you?
		And the answer is we don't know yet, but this study will shed a ton of light on this, and so this is coming out.
		Like I said, the preliminary data, December 8th when Budoff presents to the big conference, and then when they finish collecting the full data in February, they'll probably publish that probably spring-summer or something like that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Are you aware of any of the results?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I'm aware of the preliminary data, right?
		I talked to the researchers and they're like, man, they know the results, but they don't want to share it because they don't want the cat getting out of the bag early.
		But we're going to get it on December 8th.
		And basically, what I think, I'm 90% certain what it's going to show is people with super high cholesterol that are otherwise super lean and healthy compared to the average population have less risk for cardiovascular disease based on this data.
		That's what I think is going to happen.
		Now, we'll know for sure on December 8th when Budoff presents.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		There's also an issue with dietary cholesterol and what dietary cholesterol, how it shows up in the body.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		People have this assumption that when you consume dietary cholesterol, it raises cholesterol that you can measure in the blood.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's been shown to be completely...
		In fact, 2015, USDA said, no, cholesterol does not cause elevated cholesterol in the blood.
		That's been shown up because now...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Which is fascinating.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Which is fascinating, but they'll say, what they will say is saturated fat.
		Which often runs with cholesterol because the only place you get cholesterol is in animal products.
		And very often you'll get saturated fat in animal products.
		And so they'll say, but it's not the cholesterol, but it's actually the saturated fat.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But we know that saturated fat was demonized by the sugar industry.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		In that bullshit study that they put out in the 1960s where they paid these guys the equivalent of $50,000 today to lie.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, that clearly happened.
		That was Harvard University where they basically took a bunch of money to basically demonize fat and protect sugar.
		And I think that's been going on forever.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Which is wild.
		The sugar industry bribed those doctors, and that information has been the basis that people have been making recommendations on forever, on a fraudulent study.
		And still to this day, doctors will cite that not knowing it.
		And when you tell them about it, they're like, what are you talking about?
		And then you'll pull it up on Google and they just go, huh.
		What is this?
		Like there's so many doctors that aren't aware that the demonization of saturated fact was specifically caused by these papers, by these doctors that were bribed.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's crazy.
		I mean, it is crazy to think how much, you know, you'd think that science would be a quest to find the truth or to explain the observations around us, but a lot of times, you know, science now is marketing.
		I mean, it really is.
		I mean, it's paid for.
		Companies are going to benefit from this.
		You know, you think about a lot of these academic institutions.
		A lot of their funding comes through industry, and they don't get funding if they don't get the results that they're getting paid for.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's even more insidious than that, because the people that are involved in the FDA eventually go and work for these corporations, which is so wild.
		When you see that happen, and you go, oh my god, there's a clear revolving door.
		It's not like shell corporations or some secret hidden money corporation.
		Overseas.
		No, it's like right in front of your face.
		These people work for the government, they make these laws, and they make these recommendations, and then they go on to get these incredible jobs where they get paid lucrative amounts of money.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, golden parachutes, right?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's crazy that that's legal.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		It's not only, I mean, as you probably know, like the FDA, I mean, corporate capture, I mean, the FDA, for new drug approvals, it's like 65% of that budget comes from the pharmaceutical industry itself.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		So they're paying to regulate themselves.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's wild.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		So it's kind of crazy.
		And the USDA is not any different, you know, because we talk about our food stuff.
		I mean, these guys that go on to become, you know, big people in the USDA often do the same thing.
		They'll go on to these food companies and they'll have the same sort of situation.
		And so...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Dirty business.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I'll tell you, here's an interesting thing.
		Harvard recently came out with a study, nonsense epidemiology, that red meat is contributing to diabetes.
		Increase your risk for diabetes, right?
		And this is a study done by Harvard.
		Walter Willett has been the chair.
		He's been vegetarian.
		He's been conflicted for years.
		But basically what they did was they said, well, we're going to count lasagna as red meat.
		We're going to call it sandwiches as red meat.
		And the people that eat red meat, they're overweight.
		They're smokers.
		We didn't really correct for that.
		But the headline is, red meat causes diabetes.
		Meanwhile, you've got a study that Harvard did three years ago with David Ludwig.
		He says, look, these people are eating nothing but red meat, and their diabetes is going away.
		How can those two things coexist?
		Well...
		What I'm trying to do is get an interventional study done.
		So I, you know, it's kind of interesting because this is how far what I think the problem is.
		So I went to something called the NCBA. This is the National Cattlemen's Beef Association.
		This is supposed to represent all the cattle producers in the United States, right?
		And there's something called the Beef Checkoff.
		You remember that?
		Beef, it's what's for dinner.
		You remember that thing?
		It was like Robert Mitchum back in 92. And then I think Sam Elliott.
		They got great voices, right?
		Beef, it's what's for dinner.
		You know, that type of thing.
		This is what they're supposed to do.
		So they collect.
		That's part of the beef check-off.
		Every time a cow moves in the United States, if you're a cattle rancher and you sell your cow, you've got to pay a dollar.
		If it goes to a slaughter, it's got to pay a dollar.
		If it goes to a feed yard, it's got to pay a dollar.
		Every year, roughly, we slaughter about 34 million head of cattle every year in the United States.
		You know, interestingly, India slaughters more cattle than we do, which I didn't know that.
		They do?
		They slaughter 38 million head of cattle every year.
		And you think about India, it's like they're all vegetarian and eating cows.
		They export most of that.
		But they have the biggest...
		Uh, herd of cattle in the world, in India.
		There's 300 million head of cattle in India.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's insane.
unidentified		I thought...
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I thought they're sacred.
		Well, they are, in some parts of India, right?
		But they actually slaughter more cattle in India than we do in the United States.
		And they export most, a lot of it.
		There's something, like Southern India, they still eat a little bit of beef.
		In fact, there's a lot of carnivores in India right now.
		It's kind of crazy.
		I get...
		I did conferences in India, and it's just like, wow, it's kind of a growing movement down there.
		But back to the point, so we've got this beef check-off system.
		So every cattle rancher, they pay a buck, right?
		And then so at the end of the year, they collect $30, $40, $50 million a year.
		It's supposed to be to promote beef, like beef is what's for dinner, to do research and all that stuff.
		And so I, you know, the U.S. Cattlemen's Association, which represents the cattle producers, but the NCBA represents Cargill and Tyson and the packing things, and so there's a little conflict between that.
		But they have all the money.
		And I went to those guys, to the beef checkoff, and I said, hey, look, We want to spend a little bit of money to do a study on beef versus diabetes, because we know the results are going to be.
		The people are going to go on an all-meat diet or a close-to-all-meat diet, and their diabetes is going to go away.
		It's simple, and it takes all the confusion out.
		You hear all these dietary studies, it's like, oh, but he was eating hamburgers and french fries, and there's all this confounders.
		It's like, you can't really test it.
		I'm like, the perfect way to test if meat is healthy or not is to just put them on a damn carnivore diet and see what happens.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's the only way to test it because if you do an epidemiology study and you don't account for sugar, sugar, drink, Coca-Cola, bread, pasta, lasagna.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly what Harvard did recently.
		They didn't account for sugar intake when they said beef causes diabetes.
		I'm like, you've got to be kidding me.
		You're not even counting sugar?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's so crazy.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Right, but they get this published.
		And this is really bad science, you know?
		And guys like John Inaitis, who's one of the most cited scientists in the world, has basically said, all this epidemiology we're doing, we're just wasting money.
		It's not telling us anything.
		This is all garbage.
		But they keep doing it over and over again because they generate headlines, you know?
		The headlines they want.
		But anyway, back to this beef check-off thing.
		So I said, hey, look...
		You know, every year you award money, you know, hundreds of thousands, you know, tens of millions of dollars to promote beef.
		I said, let's get a little bit of money to do a research study on diabetes.
		And they literally said, no, we're not interested in doing that.
		And I'm like, you've got to be kidding me.
		The beef industry is taking a beating right now.
		You know, you listen to it.
		It's like, you know, everybody wants to get rid of beef.
		The cow farts are boiling in the oceans.
		You know, it's gonna kill you, it's gonna give you cancer, which all of this is largely nonsense.
		And this is, you know, in my view, this type of study would clearly, clearly demonstrate that not only does beef not cause diabetes, in fact, I talked to the CEO of the NCBA two years ago, I sat down, I presented in front of the California Cattlemen's Association, and literally the president of the Association stood up and said, I went on a carver diet and cured my diabetes.
		It's like, yeah, it's clear.
		And the guy said, yeah, I get it.
		We're going to help you out.
		We're going to get this going.
		I didn't hear, I heard nothing from these guys.
		So what I think is going on is the USDA kind of oversees all these checkoffs and they just kind of say, look, you can't say that because we want to promote You know, because again, they have all these processed food lobbies, Nabisco and PepsiCo, sitting on the, you know, they're on the board, and they're like, if we promote this one food and people stop eating all this processed food, right, then what are we gonna do?
		We're gonna lose a lot of money.
		You think about it, you know, not that I'm advocating that everybody want a carnivore diet, because I don't think that's, I don't think it's necessary, you know, for one, but if you significantly cut back on all these people consuming all this garbage, you know, what does that do economically to this country?
		I mean, think about how much money is spent on garbage food, the drugs that are needed to be treated.
		I mean, we spend $4.3 trillion a year on health care in this country, and what do we get for it?
		We've got one of the sickest populations in the world.
		Our life expectancy is going down.
		Everybody's fat.
		Everybody's depressed.
		Everybody's on drugs.
		You know, it's crazy.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It is crazy and it's crazy that they don't look to diet as being the primary cause of that.
		Or if they do, they look to these epidemiology studies that don't take into account exactly what you're eating with the meat.
		Why is it meat that's always demonized?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think for a number of reasons.
		One, if you go back to like dietetics in the beginning, like back in 1917, the American Dietetics Association was formed.
		This was formed literally by Seventh-day Adventists, so that from the very, very beginning, the creation of the nutrition science field The Seventh-day Adventists who are, you know, religiously vegetarians.
		You know, you go back to, like, the Kellogg's Brothers, you know, John Harvey Kellogg, where he's out there, you know, circumcising females and saying, we can't eat meat because it's going to make you have sex and make you have lust and masturbate.
		This is all like this religious stuff.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		People don't know that, but they should know that.
		That he developed this cereal, this bland cereal, to discourage masturbation.
		Which is one of the wildest things I have ever heard yeah, that guy was a wacko man.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		He's in there for He was giving himself like high-pressure enemas every day It's like fucking 20 gallons a minute enemas because he thought that was really he was a wacko He was a really nutty guy you read about some 20 gallon and it was some ridiculous like super high capacity Like a super soaker on steroids things are animals bad for you Because I've always wondered, if your internal gut flora is important, and it is, isn't that getting washed out?
		I think to some degree it is.
		I don't know that anybody's really looked at it from that angle, but I think in some cases, like some people's got some problems with constipation, it could be helpful, but I don't think it's generally a healthy practice for most people.
		I know there's people that are like, Like putting weird stuff up their butt, man.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I think it probably feels good to get flushed out.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		It might.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, it also makes you see everything come out of you, I guess.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I've never done it, but apparently there's a tube and they look at it, oh, look, here's your problems.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's kind of like these, there's this thing these crazy vegans do where they consume like this charcoal and this jelly and stuff and this kind of gruel mix and then it kind of like fills up their intestines and they poop it all out and they say, that's clearing out all my intestines.
		I can't remember what they call it, but it's like there's these crazy, crazy videos where they're just pulling all this like gelatinous black stuff out of their butt.
		But it's like you just ate all that stuff.
		That's what's coming out of you.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, look all the toxins.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, exactly.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You just ate that stupid.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		You just ate the same toxins.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		People are obsessed with that term, like releasing the toxins.
		Yeah, yeah.
		You know, they really think that that's what's happening when you sweat.
		You get in the sauna, you're releasing the toxins.
		Like when you're sweating, your body's regulating your heat temperature.
		That's what's going on.
		You know what clears your toxins?
		Your fucking liver.
unidentified		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's what that thing's for.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, liver, kidneys.
		Yeah, we got a pretty good detox system for sure.
		You don't need all the smoothie juice fast detoxes.
		You know, it's like some people are detoxing when their teeth fall off.
		They're detoxing their teeth.
unidentified		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, the other thing with the smoothie thing is, my God, you're getting so much sugar.
		And you're getting it in a weird form.
		If you're eating fruit smoothies, you're getting sugar in a very unnatural form.
		Fruit juices, we used to think that fruit juices are really good for you.
		Most doctors would agree that fruit juices are very high in sugar.
		And to get it in that sort of liquid dose where it just goes right into your fucking bloodstream in your liver, that's a lot of sugar, man.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Well, you think about it because, Joe, you're out hunting all the time.
		And, you know, when you're going out and you're like, if I had to get food out here, what would I have available to eat?
		I can tell you what, you wouldn't have all this processed food, but particularly like powder.
		You know, like we make powdered sugar, we make powdered flour, and we combine them together, but we've changed the nature of the food so much.
		That it's interesting, you know, I saw Darius Muzaffarian, who's a researcher at Tuftu, he's the guy to put out the study that says, or was part of the study that said, you know, like, Lucky Charms are healthier than eggs.
		You saw that, like, last year, that's total BS, right?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Hilarious.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		But one thing he did point out was that, like, over the last 20 years or so, we haven't really been eating much more calories than we were.
		Like, from the 1960s to about 2000, we ate more calories, and maybe that explains why everybody got fat, but since that time, We really haven't eaten much more, but we've eaten so much more ultra-processed food.
		In fact, right now the U.S. diet is close to 70% ultra-processed, which you think about, it's like crazy, and our kids are getting fat.
		But one thing that's interesting is like, you know, because you're talking about the microbiome, right?
		Our gut flora.
		When you eat like whole food, you know, It goes farther down your digestive track and then you know our microbiome actually consumes something up to up to 22 percent of our calories can be consumed by our microbiome But when you're just eating sugar it goes straight in you so those calories your gut microbiome doesn't get any of that so you're right It's like you're absorbing more calories so just by changing the quality of the food You're changing how many calories you absorb and that is what some people say is part of what leads to this Obesity thing,
		but we know, like, for instance, well, here's another thing.
		USDA came out with a study, like, I don't know, three months ago.
		91% processed food diet is healthy.
		You know, this is what they're pushing, trying to get us, because they're trying to position us to say...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What was this study?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		This was the USDA put it out.
		It was probably, I think it was the NOVA study.
		I think I've got, I might have that on there, Jamie, but it's...
		It's basically because there's there's some they're starting to be backlash against ultra processed fruits I mean like South America starting to ban the stuff which I think you know I'm not I'm not for banning food I mean I think that gets into you know freedom of choice and things like that so you shouldn't be just like you can still smoke if you want to you know it's not the best for you so you don't want to do that But at the same point, you know, they're saying, like, this stuff is, there's a lot of backlash.
		Like, people like myself and probably you and others are saying, look, this ultra-processed garbage is literally killing us.
		It's making us crazy.
		It's making us depressed.
		All these people with mental health disorders, a lot of nutrition is part of that, and we can talk about that.
		But, you know, what they're seeing is there's a backlash against that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so that's a NOVA. Dietary Guidelines Meet NOVA, Developing a Menu for a Healthy Dietary Pattern Using Ultra-Processed Foods.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so they're basically saying, hey, how do we make people eat more processed food and make it quote-unquote healthy?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		And they showed that they could make a diet that's like 91% ultra-processed foods and still be quote-unquote healthy.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Look at what it says here.
		It says, What is that?
		K-C-A-L? Kilocalories.
		Kilocalories?
		From UPF, ultra-processed foods, as defined by NOVA, designed to accomplish this objective.
		We first developed a list of foods that fit NOVA criteria for UPF, ultra-processed foods, fit within a dietary pattern in the 2020 DGA, and are commonly consumed by Americans.
		We then use these foods to develop a 7-day 2000 kilocalorie menu modeled on the MyPyramid sample menus and assess this menu for nutrient content as well as for diet quality using the Healthy Eating Index.
		The results in the ultra-processed DGA menu that was created, 91% of the kilocalories were from ultra-processed food or NOVA Category 4. The HEI 215 score was 86 out of a possible 100 points.
		The sample menu did not achieve a perfect score due primarily to excess sodium and an insufficient amount of whole grains.
		This menu provided adequate amounts of all macro and micronutrients except vitamin D, vitamin E, and choline.
		Conclusions.
		Healthy dietary patterns can include most of their energy from ultra-processed foods, still receive a high diet quality score, and contain adequate amounts of most macro and micronutrients.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		So remember, USDA, the guys that go there, they leave USDA and they go sit on the board of directors at Nabisco and PepsiCo.
		And so this is really, I think, what this is.
		It's positioning us as a society to accept that ultra-processed foods are our food.
		It's really human pet food.
		I mean, you see what happens to our pets.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		And everybody's fat, so we're going to say, well, it's still okay.
		If it's okay if you eat your human dog chow or your human chow, just keep doing that.
		Don't ask questions.
		And, oh, by the way, here's an Ozempic shot or a semaglutide shot.
		Well, semaglutide shot we'll give you to kind of keep you chilled out.
		So it's really, I mean, it's almost sinister in a way.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's very bizarre.
		It's very bizarre that this isn't challenged.
		And that shows you how captured our food industry really is.
		The fact that that's not challenged, the fact that our health guidelines aren't set on, hey, what you should be eating is what human beings are designed to eat in nature.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, it's real food.
		I mean, I, you know, my opinion on dietary guidelines, because we have a USDA that meets every five years, and by the way, so USDA dietary guidelines, did you see, there's a physician from Harvard named Fatima Stanford, right?
		And she went on 60 Minutes and said, Obesity has nothing to do with diet.
		It has nothing to do with exercise.
		It's all disease and genetic, and there's nothing you can literally do.
		And she's also sponsored by Nova Nordisk, who makes Ozempic, right?
		And she's on there.
		She's also a member of the U.S. Dietary Guidelines Panel.
		So 95% of the people that sit on the U.S. Dietary Guidelines Panel today, for this next one where they're going to come up for the 2025 guidelines, all have financial ties to processed food companies.
unidentified		Yeah.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Which, I mean, you think about it, it's just like, this is crazy.
		So if you go to like Brazil, like Brazil's Dietary Guidelines, or at least the ones they released a few years ago, it was like, here's what you should do.
		Cook at home, don't eat processed foods, and eat with people around that you love.
		That's their, literally, that is their recommendation, which I think is better than our guidelines.
		Because, you know, I mean, if left to our own, you know, I mean, we are now being told we've got to eat all this garbage, and it's just making us, it's just making us sick.
		It's crazy.
		And I think, you know, like, you know, I mean, it's like, this is the most, can you remember a time, because you and I grew up the same time, we were like, I turned 57 in six weeks.
		Yeah, I'm 56. So we grew up at the same time back when we were kids.
		I mean, it's like when we were kids, we all watched the same fucking shows because there was nothing else on, right?
		There was CBS, ABC, NBC, and maybe like PBS, right?
		Maybe a local news station.
		That's all you had.
		So we're all watching Gilligan's Island and the Brady Bunch and Dukes of Hazzards and Charlie's Angels and stuff like that.
		And everybody had the same thing, but now it's so fractionated.
		Everybody's divided.
		I mean, I can't remember a time when this country's been more divided.
		I mean, can you?
		I mean, it's just like every single issue, Palestine, Israel, you know, COVID shot, not shot, climate change, no climate change.
		It's like everything's a war.
		It's like crazy.
		But I think part of that is, I mean, I don't think half people's brains work anymore.
		I mean, because we're We're just so nutrient-deprived.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I think that's really true.
		And it sounds crazy to say because people, oh, that's not it.
		No, it's social media.
		I think the mental health aspects of social media, which are significant, there's real mental health issues involved in these posts and commenting and seeking things that outrage you.
		I think it's exacerbated by people's poor physical health.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure.
		Sure.
		I'm going to go back to mental health a little bit.
		So there is another guy at Harvard.
		His name is Dr. Chris Palmer.
		He's a good dude.
		He's like an Indiana country boy, but he's at Harvard.
		And he just wrote a book called Brain Energy, where he talks about how nutrition and metabolism significantly affect mental health disorders.
		And, you know, we've got something like 25% of Americans are on a drug for mental health.
		Which is insane.
		I mean, it's like, how the hell do we make it through millions of years as a species, you know?
		Or hundreds of thousands of years, rather.
		But what they've shown, in one study they showed that, you know, they took like 30 people that were inpatient, like psychotic.
		I mean, schizophrenia, manic bipolar disorder, major depressive disorder, and they changed their diet.
		They put them on, you know, a clean diet, you know, kind of a lower-carb diet.
		And all of them, Every single one of them saw significant improvement in their mental health.
		And so, but you know, what do we do now?
		You know, if you go to like rehab, drug rehab, or you put somebody in an institution, they just feed them garbage.
		And they just keep them perpetuating this horrible brain.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		When we go to the hospital.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the hospitals are horrible for food.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Hospital is terrible food.
		They give you garbage.
		They give you little fucking things, applesauce and cheeseburgers.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, like pancakes with syrup and an orange juice and some jello, like that crappy jello.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's all bad for you.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You don't get grass-fed steak.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		No, not at all.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		No, it's fiber.
		This is another thing that always comes up when I tell people that I eat only meat.
		What about fiber?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Yeah, so that's a good topic.
		And so what I would say is fiber is conditionally beneficial.
		So if you're eating a standard diet, yeah, if you put fiber, fiber really is a marker for diet quality, right?
		So if I'm some poor guy and I'm eating his potato chips and cookies, I don't get a lot of fiber.
		If I got a little more money, I'm probably buying the fruits and vegetables, probably out of guilt.
		But it generally represents higher socioeconomic status, better overall diet quality.
		And I think it's beneficial in that situation.
		But if you go like, is it providing anything that I can't get from meat?
		So there was a study that a guy named Tommy Wood and the other researcher was Mailer.
		I can't remember her first name's female.
		They did a study looking at what happens to the microbiome.
		Because we're always hearing, oh, you need fiber to feed your microbiome.
		You need those short-chain fatty acids.
		You need the...
		The butyrate or the butyric acid.
		Well, they looked at that and they said, look, our gut has incredible metabolic flexibility.
		And so even in the absence of fiber, you can get the same short-trained fatty acids from protein.
		You can get it from being a low-carb state where you have more ketones being produced because the main ketones in our blood is called beta-hydroxybutyrate, which is very similar to butyric acid.
		It's only one You know, hydroxyl molecule, and it reverses all the time.
		So they indicated that, you know, we don't need fiber for that particular aspect.
		And the other thing, there was a recent study, because what I see is so many autoimmune conditions.
		You know, I know you've talked to Jordan and Michaela, and you've seen these crazy autoimmune conditions, which I've seen in the thousands now.
		It's crazy, like Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis, psoriasis, rheumatoid arthritis, eczema, asthma, you know, anything.
		That there was a study looking at fiber actually exacerbating problems with rheumatoid arthritis because of its interaction with a particular bacteria called Prevotella coprii, I think, or something like that.
		And so we're seeing...
		Yeah, so high-fiber diet synergizes and exacerbates rheumatoid arthritis.
		So basically, you know, it's showing that, yeah, I mean, there can be problems with fiber for a lot of people, particularly if they have these issues.
		And so...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So when people say that fiber is beneficial, what they're essentially saying is that if you have a poor diet, if you have a diet that's rich in ultra-processed foods and garbage, fiber would be beneficial to you because it would help.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What does it do?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		It helps push that food?
		I think it's displacing the garbage off the plate, right?
		So if you load your plate up with fruits and vegetables, which I think generally, I'm not a guy that says vegetables are trying to kill you and nobody should.
		I know there's other people.
		It's kind of funny.
		You talk about cults.
		And karma's kind of become a cult, right?
		And it's not because of me.
		I'm like, I tell people, hey, we're omnivores.
		This is a therapeutic protocol.
		Use it for as long as you like.
		If you want to do it for a lifestyle, have at it.
		It's fine.
		I'm not going to.
		But what I think was happening with fiber in a lot of ways, because fiber goes back to, what's the researcher's name?
		I'm blanking on his name.
		He had a cancer named after him.
		Anyway, from 1920s, 1930s, goes to Uganda in Africa and notices like, oh, these people aren't fat and sick like they are in England.
		And Burkitt, Dennis Burkitt's the guy's name.
		And he says, well, oh, they're eating a lot of fiber.
		But they weren't also, they weren't eating a lot of sugar and they weren't eating a lot of garbage like they were in the UK. Sugar's been around since about the 1600s and progressively has increased.
		I mean, the U.S. right now, it's kind of interesting.
		Compared to the early 1800s, the average kid by the age of something like eight has eaten more sugar than they would have eaten in a lifetime back 150 years ago.
		So it's kind of crazy.
		By the time they're eight years old, the average eight-year-old has eaten more sugar than somebody would have eaten in their entire life.
		And that's just the normal kids.
		You see some of these kids who are just like...
		I mean, Jamie, I got a picture I got to show you.
		This is so incredible.
		There's a gal before and after picture.
		We got this food addiction stuff.
		So I interviewed a gal.
		She was 800 pounds, right?
		It's like, how do you get to 800 pounds?
		It's like impossible.
		Like, I don't think I could do it if I tried, right?
		I mean, you know, food addict.
		Couldn't stop eating chocolate and ice cream and all that stuff.
		And this is her.
unidentified		Whoa.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		She's almost 800 pounds, or 350 kilos, which is the most I've ever deadlifted, so that's kind of an interesting weight.
		But 22 months, she goes on Carnivore, right?
		I interviewed her a while back, and she's now lost almost 500 pounds on Carnivore when nothing else would work for her.
		I mean, she literally, I mean, she told me it was like, I finally found the off switch.
		She tried Weight Watchers.
		She tried, like, gastric band surgery.
		She tried vegan diets.
		She tried juicing.
		She tried Weight Watchers.
		She tried every single thing you could think of, but could never stop.
		And finally, for the first time in her life, she's like, I finally found freedom from this food addiction.
		And, you know, recent studies show that that other guy in the hat, this is a funny guy, this guy in the hat right there, his name is, what's his name?
		Todd.
		He's a dude out in Montana, right?
		He was 770 pounds, right?
		Same sort of situation.
		Started drinking Cokes when he was 14 years old.
		I'm doing an interview, and he goes, yeah, I didn't know who he was, and he starts telling me, he goes, yeah, when I was 14, I was 600 pounds.
		I'm like, what?
		600 pounds at 14?
		It's like, how the hell can you get to 400 pounds?
		You know, their poor family and his mom and sister and everybody in the family is, you know, very obese.
		And they had tried gastric bypass and it didn't work for them.
		But same thing with this kid.
		I mean, he's just like, I call him a kid, he's 40. He went carnivore for the first time in his life.
		He's like, I don't need the sugar and I don't need the Coke.
		He was drinking like 20 Cokes a day or some ridiculous stuff.
		And he just blew up and blew up and he could not stop until...
		And this is why one of the reasons I think they know this.
		I mean, the food industry knows they're making addictive food.
		They clearly know that.
		In fact, I had a gal who worked for one of the major food manufacturing companies.
		And her job, she was a chemist.
		And her job was to design food to be as addictive as possible.
		And she literally told me that.
		She goes, I can no longer live with the guilt.
		I want to come work for you guys.
		You know, she was just so, like, just beside herself.
		She says she realizes what she's created with this epidemic of disease and suffering.
		I mean, because these people are suffering.
		Did you see that movie, The Whale?
		Did you ever see that movie?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I did not.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		It's an interesting movie.
		It's like a 700-pound dude.
		It shows he lives in his recliner.
		He can't barely get up.
		He can barely go to the bathroom.
		Refrigerator next to him and his whole life isn't and this guy did the same thing he said he spent like He said he went he fasted one time for 40 days trying to lose weight just and he never left his chair He laid he just sat there for 40 days and didn't eat Wow can you imagine that's like hell that's like hell on earth You know, but now he's like now.
		He's going back to work He's getting out in the field and he's working doing all like electrical work or something like that But I mean it's just the sugar In one, you know, I know there's people out there saying, listen, not sugar's fine, it's all seed oils and stuff like that, but I think clearly there are people that are addicted to either sugar or sugary foods.
		You know, it's like, you know, because you're like, would you eat chocolate if there's no sugar in it?
		I mean, it's like, you know, that 100% dark is kind of like...
		Have you tried that?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's kind of gross.
unidentified		It is.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		It's like the only reason you eat that stuff is because the sugar is in there.
		So people say, well, no one's mainlining bags of sugar.
		I mean, actually, I know people that have actually done that.
		I mean, it's kind of crazy.
		You see these people that are so addicted to this stuff.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They mainline the sugar?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, they just eat it out of the bag.
unidentified		Oh, okay.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		So it's kind of like they're not shooting it up.
		Not like an IV. They're not like heroin addicts.
		But I mean, they're like, you know, because there are people that say they'll do that if they can't get anything else.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They just eat a bag of sugar.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		They'll sit down.
		Well, there's...
		The lethal dose for sugar is about, like, five pounds.
		If you, like, sat down and ate a five-pound bag of sugar, it would kill you.
		It would literally cause you going to liver failure.
		So there is, like, an LD50 on sugar.
		So it is...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Over what time period?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Just, like, whatever.
		Maybe a day or something like that.
		You know, if you just sat down and ate...
		You know, and some of these people...
		You see some of these...
		Have you seen, like, they call them fat fluencers, like these body-positive...
		You know, influencers, but they're fat, right?
		And they're literally out there.
		And the processed food companies actually pay these guys, right?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They do?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		It's the same thing.
		They're getting kickbacks to promote all this unhealthy behavior and unhealthy food, and they're going through what I eat in a day, and it's like, you know, everything.
		It's like Doritos and cookies and Cokes and all the garbage that they're chowing down on.
		And, you know, we've got this whole...
		The body positivity movement is being funded by the processed food industry.
		I mean, if you didn't know that.
		I mean, it's like they've clearly shown...
unidentified		Directly.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Directly.
		They're paying these people to do this.
		The other thing, processed food companies, they're paying dieticians on social media also to recommend processed foods.
		So it's just like, it's clearly corrupt.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's so dirty.
		It's such a dirty, but it's like a war against your health.
		And they're the enemy.
		They're the propagandists.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Well, and then they wanted you.
		I mean, you've seen this stuff.
		Like, you know, they come off to you.
		They say, oh, he's a racist or he's a right-wing fascist or something like that.
		Because you're like, I don't want to be sick and fat.
		That's what they come out and say.
		It's, you know, it's like there was some article like, you know, working out is a right-wing conspiracy.
unidentified		Do you see that stuff?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		It's wild.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's wild, because some people will read that, and people that are extremely averse as to being labeled right-wing, or being labeled racist, or xenophobic, or whatever it is, they're terrified of those labels.
		They don't want that smoke.
		And so they see these things, and it does affect the way they view the world, as ridiculous as it sounds.
		And maybe one article won't do it, but if you see enough of them over time, you will associate that activity with some sort of problematic label that could be put on you, which is incredible that we're so easily influenced.
		Some of us.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, you know, I saw like, I know you've had Elon Musk on several times.
		I know he said like, look, I was a middle-of-the-road dude, and that's me too.
		I was like, I'm just kind of middle.
		Let people live.
		I'm not political one way or the other.
		And all of a sudden, the whole spectrum just shifts way over.
		And it's like, if you're not promoting...
		Like craziness, you're all of a sudden this homophobic, racist, crazy person.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I've always been left-wing, which is really crazy.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But the left moved so far away from what the left used to be.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Now you're a fascist.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Now I'm an alt-right influencer.
		I've seen people label me as an alt-right person.
		I'm like, that is so wild that they can do that with a straight face.
		Because I've said, hey, maybe we should look into universal basic income.
		Maybe we should look into universal healthcare.
		I think education should be free.
		I think we should subsidize the schools, and we should fix the roads, and we should fucking fix inner cities.
		If you're going to use tax dollars, and if I thought my tax dollars were being used very appropriately in that way, I'd be 100% in favor of all that stuff.
		If I thought it really was an overall benefit to society.
		The problem is bureaucracy and big government is insanely inefficient.
		Like if you were talking about If there was some sort of private industry and the private industry only profited if something was successful and they got involved in these particular activities, if they got involved in education, if they got involved in dietary health, and the only way they were profitable is if their methods were effective because there's a free market.
		That would probably work, but when you get the government involved, all it does is make the government employees more wealthy, it makes the government larger, and it makes them protect that industry.
		We covered that with the homeless thing in California.
		If you're not aware, there's people that are working on the homeless.
		There's like a shitload of them, and some of them are making a quarter million dollars a year, and they are not putting a fucking dent in it.
		They're not effective at all.
		In fact, the only thing that I saw that was effective at all in stopping the tents in the homeless situation was when Xi Jinping did San Francisco!
		They fucking cleaned it up like that!
		Like, you could've done this the whole time?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		What do they do to those people?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Where do they put those people?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I don't know, but what are they gonna do now?
		Now that Xi Jinping is gone, are they gonna, like, take down the fences and let people camp again?
		Like, you showed that the overall quality of life of the people that live in that city is not important to you.
		What's important is the view, the optics.
		When a fucking dictator comes and visits, which is so wild.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I saw, you know, the governor Gavin Newsom.
		I think he's going to run.
		I try not to get political, but I'm just like, what's going to happen in the next election?
		I mean, is Biden even going to be able to run?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I think at this point they kind of have to run him unless he dies.
		We have one year now.
		We're in November.
		We're in late November.
		We have less than a year.
		What are they going to do?
		I mean, you could.
		Look, if Biden died tomorrow, And then what do they do with Kamala Harris?
		They're gonna put her on the moon?
		Like, what are they gonna do?
		She's the vice president.
		So if he dies, she becomes the president, which is fucking wild when you hear that lady talk.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		What if, like, Biden says, like, in, I don't know, May, he says, you know, I'm just not feeling up to it.
		And then they say Kamala's now the president.
		She's the first female president.
		And then she steps down at the convention and they said, let's give it to Newsom.
		I mean, do you think that's a plausible scenario?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That is possible, but it would be a real problem for people that are Kamala Harris supporters, and believe it or not, they exist.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but I mean how I mean I'm sure that I'm sure the Democratic Party's just like calculating how they have to how big is this and what's it?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		What's the thing?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I think they have fucking no cards and they're looking at this this game and I don't know I think they're depending upon party loyalty and they're depending upon Trump getting convicted and arrested I mean and in imprisoned rather I don't know if that's gonna happen.
		I don't think it is.
		It doesn't seem, it seems like it's a bunch of trumped-up charges, no pun intended.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, I just, again, I'm not a political commentator, I'm not an expert, but it does seem like, really, like, why are they going after him so hard right now when they could have done it?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Like the hotel thing or the valuation of the property from 20 years ago.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's bananas.
		The valuation of the property is so obvious, so off what it should be.
		$18 million for Mar-a-Lago?
		I'd fucking buy it.
		I'd fucking buy it immediately.
		If that shit was $18 million and you were the only one that was able to buy it, you'd be a fool not to scoop it up because you could sell it right away.
		You can get a loan and you can sell that bitch right away for who knows how much.
		I think Forbes valued it, I think it was like well over 700 million.
		And Trump thinks it's worth over a billion.
		And he might be right.
		That's what's crazy.
		It's a giant piece of property in one of the most valuable pieces of land in all of America.
		I mean, a house next to him, down the street, a much smaller place, sold for 50. Yeah, so it doesn't make sense.
		It does make sense if you want to look at banana republic tactics.
		I mean, when you're imprisoning and trying to convict your political opponents, which is, the problem with that is, even if you think Donald Trump is a crook, even if you think that he should be arrested, This sets a precedent for future presidents.
		If we get someone who is not just Donald Trump, who has a lot of people in the center that say, hey, his economic policies were effective, his foreign policies were effective, even if I think he's a jerk, maybe that would be better to have a jerk run the country in a way that's better overall than what's being done right now.
		Even if you looked at that.
		What if someone further right than him steps in?
		What if a war breaks out?
		What if things get even crazier?
		What if nationalism really upticks?
		Then you have someone who is now in power that is far right, like has happened.
		All over the world.
		If that happens and that person, if that precedent has been set for prosecuting your political opponents and going after them with trumped up charges, we have a horrible situation.
		And that's one of the reasons why we have to stick with the rule of law.
		We have to stick with the way this country was founded on.
		These principles were set up because they wanted to mitigate corruption at its base level at every step of the way.
		They wanted to stretch it out so no one Could be an authoritarian dictator and run America.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, because you talk about the backlash, because you saw, like, recently in Argentina, you know, a guy who's a libertarian won, and then just in the Netherlands, which is kind of interesting, because they were like, in the Netherlands, they're trying to get rid of cows.
		They're like, oh, these cows are farting, they're killing the atmosphere, and the farmers were like, we don't like this.
		And so they had this, I guess, this PVV or PPV party, Freedom Party, and they won that by a landslide.
		And so you saw in Italy, Maloney takes over.
		So you've got this I think backlash coming back.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Right.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		It depends on how far does the pendulum swing back the other way.
		And you're kind of like...
		I don't know.
		I mean, day-to-day to me, it doesn't really affect me that much because I'm not like a political crazy person.
		But I'm just like, how does it affect my day-to-day stuff?
		I mean, a little bit of the COVID stuff, I was a little annoyed by that.
		I don't know.
		I was very annoyed by that.
		I don't know.
		I just spoke in a conference in Florida, and I had Robert Malone sitting next to me in the car when he was going out there.
		And I just kind of saw some of the craziness there.
		And I know that's a really sensitive issue.
		But...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's sensitive, but it shouldn't be.
		It should be sensitive the other way.
		Everyone at this point in time should realize that we got hoodwinked.
		Everyone should realize that it was an overall net negative for children that got kept out of schools, masks, all the shit that we saw that went on.
		Forget about just the vaccines, the lockdowns, just what they did, the closing of businesses, the essential businesses.
		That they had big chains labeled as essential, but these small mom-and-pop stores were forced to go under.
		People had worked their whole lives to develop these businesses, and they took them away from them.
		And it's fucked up.
		And the fact that no one is outraged still, and that this narrative has been allowed to be portrayed through the mass media, that this isn't a major problem, and that this cannot happen again.
		Like, this is fucking madness, man.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's like the shirt I'm wearing here.
		This is from my jiu-jitsu coach.
		This guy's named Greg Anderson.
		I know that dude.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I follow him on Instagram.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		He's a good guy.
		Special operations, Army Ranger, 14-15 tours overseas.
		Comes back as a Seattle cop.
		During the pandemic, they were like, hey, you need to go arrest this lady for doing people's nails at her home.
		And he's like, I'm not doing that.
		This is total bullshit, right?
		And he made a video, and it went viral.
		And the cops, the Seattle Police Commissioner said, hey, Greg, we agree in principle what you're saying, but you've got to take down that video.
		And he just said, no, fuck you, I'm not going to do it.
		So they fired him.
		And so he got like a GoFundMe page and he raised much money and he opened a jiu-jitsu studio and a CrossFit gym.
		He's like, I make more money now as a jiu-jitsu guy than I ever did as a cop.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		He's great online, too.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		He's very wise.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		He's a guy.
		And he always beats my ass whenever I roll against him.
		He always arm-armed me, that motherfucker, man.
unidentified		Of course.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		It's just like I try.
		One time, one round, I got to like within two seconds of the round and he hit and got me and he got me in the last second.
		So it's kind of like...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's the process.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, exactly.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I mean, one day you'll be doing that to people.
		Stay healthy.
		And that's what the stem cells are for today.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, exactly.
		And appreciate it.
		I guess we may chat about that.
		So you've been doing stem cells for a while, right, John?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I've cured some really serious injuries with stem cells.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That I was told needed surgery.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's the interesting thing because I'm an orthopedic surgeon, right?
		I operate, I replace knees and hips and shoulders and all that stuff over the years.
		And the orthopedic surgery, orthopedic academy says stem cells don't really work.
		And so, but the question is, is it because, again, there's a conflict of interest there?
		Because if you're not getting surgery because you're getting stem cells, I'm losing out on, you know, shoulder arthroscopy money, right?
		So, I mean, there's a little bit of a conflict of interest there.
		So I go in it with a little bit of skepticism, but I'm open-minded, and we'll see.
		Like I said, if I notice, because I want to get back to rolling.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The key is you have to not roll for quite a while.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You have to really let that thing heal.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Well, what I'm planning on, like I said, I got one of those Iron Neck deals.
		You're a fan of that.
		I talked to the guy, Robert, I think is the head of that company.
		And it's pretty cool.
		I was doing it in the hotel room this morning.
		But I mean, it was just like, I want to, because I got a long neck.
		I don't know if you can tell, I got a pretty long neck.
		I'm a pretty big, strong guy, but my neck is an area where I didn't really, like, spend a lot of time developing.
		I mean, when I played rugby, I did.
		I'd do some neck bridges and wrestler's bridges.
		Neck bridge and start bench pressing with the weight on there.
		But I hadn't done that in years, you know, because I was just like, eh.
		So then, you know, when I got into Jiu-Jitsu and I've been doing, you know, two years into it, basically, and then I just got dumped, man.
		I was just like, you know, we were talking about that.
		I just got landed on my head.
		Dropped on my head and flexed under me.
		Because I'm about 250, 260. And the other guy was like, I don't know, 220. And it was just like that combined weight.
		It was just like...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's a lot of weight.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so it's one thing.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Necks are a real problem.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		John John Machado always said, never trust your neck.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		So my goal is to make it as strong and as flexible and as bulletproof as possible before I go back.
		I may go back to just doing some drilling and stuff like that, but not the actual live rounds for a while.
		But...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you just have to avoid aggravating it while it happens.
		My buddy Shane Dorian, who's a big wave surfer, he just went down to the CPI in Tijuana.
		And they could do some wild shit down there.
		Because that's part of the problem with it not being completely approved by the FDA is they're limited in their applications.
		But in Mexico, they're not.
		And so they've had tremendous results.
		And they inject directly into the disks.
unidentified		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They put you under anesthesia, they inject you directly into the discs, and they told them, I want you doing anything for eight weeks.
		Nothing.
		You're walking.
		That's it.
		Nothing straining.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		That's hard to do.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's hard to do, but it's important.
		It's so hard for guys like you and I that work out all the time, but it's so important.
		And one of the things that I realized...
		I was getting a lot of stem cells in my left knee in particular.
		I had a torn MCL and I just wasn't letting it heal properly.
		I would get the stem cells and then four weeks later I'd go back to Muay Thai and I'd be smashing the bag and kicking the pads and then my knee would swell up again and I was like, fuck.
		And I was thinking, God damn it, I don't want to get surgery.
		And then I would go back again, get more stem cells, do it again.
		Then I finally got the stem cells and I said, okay, I am going to take a year off of kicking.
		And I didn't do any kicking at all for a year.
		Now it's back to full strength.
		I have no problems with it.
		I'm slamming the bag, no problems, it doesn't hurt.
		It's still a missing meniscus in there because I had it scoped in 2003, I believe it was.
		And so there's a chunk of...
		I had a bucket handle tear.
		It was a real problem.
		It was a nasty meniscus tear that I had.
		So they removed some meniscus, which can contribute to arthritis if you're not careful.
		But it just gets a little sore sometimes.
		But the structure is not...
		It's not a problem at all anymore.
		And I did a lot of that knees over toes stuff.
unidentified		You know, that guy?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That guy's amazing.
		He's amazing.
		And I love that he puts all that information out there for everybody.
		He just lets you know for free.
		He shows his mom doing it.
		He shows how he had all these knee surgeries and all these problems and now he can dunk, he can run, he can sprint, do all these different things.
		So I started incorporating all those knees over toes things, the Nordic curls, the tib bar raises.
		My knees are significantly stronger than they've been in years.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I do some of the backwards stuff that he does.
		I've got a hill up my house that's about 80 meters.
		Do you still do hill sprints, Joe?
		Do you still do that stuff?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		No, I haven't done those, but I do a lot of sled work.
		I do a lot of pushing the sled, and I still run a little bit.
		I have one of those treadmills that is self-propelled.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, like an arc one.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yes, those are great.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I've got one in the garage.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Because you're on the ball of your foot, it's fairly cushioned, and that doesn't irritate me at all.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's supposed to sort of, I guess, provide better feedback for better, correct running technique.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		It's like the Salt Air Runner is the one I've got at home.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think that's what I have, too.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And it's supposedly, like, I think it's 13% more difficult than running regularly.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've heard it's a little harder.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so it's nice.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It gives you real good cardiovascular benefits, and it doesn't hurt my knees, and it doesn't fuck with me.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Do you run sprints, or what do you kind of run?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I mostly just do distance.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You know I'll do like you know time and keep my my heart rate at you know in the high 140s something like that.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		What percentage of like when you say because you're doing what percentage your training is jujitsu versus striking or grappling versus striking?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I haven't been doing much grappling lately so I've been doing more striking than that but it was mostly because of my knee because I just wanted to give it time off and now that it's better and then I was going through El Conti season and El Conti season I didn't want to fuck anything up because You know when you elk hunt you have to you know, you're doing 10 12 miles a day and you're doing it in the mountains So most of my work was I was doing rucking.
		I was doing a lot of farmers carries I was doing elevated treadmill with weight on my back I was doing a lot of things like that that is just designed Stairmaster I was doing all the different knees over toes stuff box steps all these different things just specifically to condition my legs for the mountains and And I didn't want to fuck my knees up.
		But that's over, so now I can go back to jiu-jitsu again.
unidentified		Got it.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I was just wondering, like, you know, because you've got a black belt and you've been doing it for, what, 30 years or something?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Forever.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Forever, yeah.
		So you kind of, like, you figure out, like, I'm still in a learning phase.
		I'm like, the biggest problem for me is, like, I can't get in as enough as I want to hit that learning curve.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The big thing is drilling.
unidentified		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Drilling is everything and everybody loves to roll because it's so fun.
unidentified		Yeah, exactly.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's so fun, but really drilling and live drills, you know, like, you know, you and especially if you get good training partners.
		Good training partners are everything.
		Someone who gives you like 50%, 60% resistance and then you go through a pass phase, you know, you go through a guard pass phase or you go through a back mount phase, you know, whatever your routine is that you do.
		Just Fucking do that over and over and over and over again.
		I made my biggest leaps when I was a blue belt because I'm good friends with Eddie Bravo and He and I would drill twice a week.
		We would just get together and nothing but drill.
		Nothing but drill.
		And it made massive leaps in my improvement because I was conditioned to hit those, my body knew what, just like tying, he would describe it like tying your shoelace.
		You don't even think about tying your shoelace, right?
		You get it, once you know how to do it, you just, it just does that.
		You want that with your jiu-jitsu techniques.
		And the way to get that with your jiu-jitsu techniques is to drill.
		Just drill over and over and over again.
		And practice on white belts.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's what I like so much.
		Because I find, like, you know, because I'm still a white belt.
		I mean, because I don't go as much, but I mean, it's just like, when I go to another white belt, it's like war, man.
		It's just like you want to kill each other.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Right, right, right.
		You've got to learn how to be playful.
		That's what the Gracies always say.
		Keep it playful.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I try to play like I have my better roles with the with the higher belts like the black belts because I Mean because they know like they can dial it back in there Yeah, it's just kind of like they kind of let you work a little bit So that's really and I always but I always try to get the harder ones because I'm like, you know I'm like I'm big guy and I like, you know That's a problem Tuesday.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You're so big.
		Yeah, you know when big guys it's hard for them to learn that's like a big guy that has a guard is so fucking dangerous and That's why Fabrizio Verdum was so dangerous because he was a heavyweight, a giant guy who had a lethal guard because it's so rare because big guys can just get on top.
		They get on top and smash the smaller people and that's fun.
		And so they do that more often than not.
		And it's very rare that you get a big guy that has really sharp, sharp technique.
		Most people say the best jujitsu to learn is learn jujitsu from a smaller person.
		You learn jujitsu from, you know, like one of the Mendez brothers or Hoyler Gracie or someone who's a smaller person physically, Marcelo Garcia.
		So their technique is just sharp.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Has to be.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Has to be.
		There's no options.
		You can't muscle your way around things.
		How many times have you been caught in an arm bar where you can just fucking yank your arm out?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, if it's a white belt putting on, I usually get out.
		Usually I like it, because then I'm like, I'm going to get out and land on you.
		Exactly.
		But if it's somebody good, like Greg, I'm fine.
		There was a period where I was kind of figuring out, I was like pushing his lower leg down and catching it between my legs.
		And I was doing that for a while, and I was kind of defeating him a little bit.
		Then he, of course, figured that out and still arm barred me anyway.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's what being a black belt's all about.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		How much does he weigh?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		He, Greg's...
		He's 200-ish, something like that.
		So he's a decent size, you know.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's decent size, but you have a significant advantage over a weight loss.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I'm like 260-ish right now.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Usually I'm about 250. I'm a little fat right now.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You've got to learn how to not use that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's so counterintuitive.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Well, what he says is use it when you need it.
		I mean, there's times when strength is important.
		It's like telling a fast guy, don't be fast.
		I mean, it's like you want to use what you have to some degree.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But that's in competition.
		What learning and training is supposed to be about is drilling those techniques into your central nervous system, drilling those techniques into your mind and your body so that when the opportunity arises, like when you hit an arm drag, your body immediately knows what to do.
		It's just instantaneous.
		It's not like, oh, okay, I got the elbow and I pull.
		Now what?
		It's just...
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I mean, that makes total sense because it's like, you know, like, It's kind of funny, before I hurt my neck, I got all these Danaher videos.
		I'm like watching them like, oh yeah, because John is like, he's funny.
		I mean, it's just like, you listen to him talking on his videos, and he'll just say something off the wall.
		It's like, oh yeah, it's like if you were hanging out at the strip joint last night.
		I'm like, what?
		He throws these funny things in there, and he's such a good guy describing what you're supposed to be doing, what you're supposed to be thinking, why you're doing it.
		I enjoy that, but...
		But again, then you go to a live role and you're like, wait a minute, it's changing too fast for me to keep up.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's why drilling is so important.
		Drilling is everything.
		When you meet guys that drill versus guys that don't drill, it's a giant leap in their improvement, the guys who drill.
		Another thing that really helps is teaching.
		When my friends who realized that they really loved jujitsu and they started teaching lower belts to make a living, they didn't want to do their job anymore, so they got a job teaching private lessons.
		Those guys got so much better.
		It's really incredible.
		It's extraordinary the leap that they make.
		Because they're concentrating on the basics and they're explaining it to people.
		So when they're explaining these things to people, it's like cementing it in their mind, like really carving those grooves deeply in their mind and their body so their body knows exactly what to do in those situations.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we used to have a saying in surgery, see one, do one, teach one.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it wasn't exactly that, but I mean, if you could teach it, then you really had it down.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		100%.
		That's when I got really good at martial arts, when I was teaching.
		When I was a kid, I started teaching very early on.
		My instructor realized that I had some potential.
		So he told me at a very young age, I think I was like 16 when I started teaching, he said, look, we need someone to teach white belts.
		You're good and you're very dedicated.
		If you teach, you can train here for free.
		So I was great.
		I was like, this is awesome.
		Now I don't have to pay dues.
		All I have to do is show up and teach, which I love to do anyway.
		And it helped me.
		I got big leaps in my improvement from teaching.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that makes sense.
		You know what really shocked me is because, you know, doing this carnivore stuff, a lot of people are reaching out to me.
		And I had, the first time I met a professional MMA guy, his name was Georgie Karkand, and he fought in Bellator.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, very good fighter.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		And he goes, hey, would you mind if I came to your house and trained?
		I said, yeah, sure, come on over.
		And he's such an, I was like, this is a killer.
		These guys are assassins.
		I mean, their job is literally to beat people up, right?
		Yeah.
		The nicest people I've ever met.
		I've been amazed at how just super nice all these guys.
		I've met a lot of them now.
		They have nothing to prove.
		Yeah, I mean, it's just like, that's the one thing, one of the reasons I like about Jiu-Jitsu is like, it puts the rest of your life in perspective.
		You know, you go there, and literally like someone's literally like trying to kill you.
		If they choke you to death, you'd be dead.
		If they like continue, you'd literally die.
		And so you're like, you're fighting for your life, And then the rest of life is like, well, at least I'm not fighting for my life right now.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So much easier.
		The hardest thing you do is always the hardest thing you do.
		If the hardest thing you do is parallel parking, like, I can't do it!
		It becomes a fucking real issue.
		But if you're used to jiu-jitsu, the rest of the life is easy.
		You know, you're just trying not to get your arm broken.
		You're trying to, you know, like literally.
		I mean, how many people are running around all day where multiple times a day you're trying not to get your arm broken?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Right, yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's pretty rare.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But in jujitsu, it's insanely common.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's like 10 times in half an hour.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's also such an insane stress reliever.
		And it's a moving form of meditation because it's so engrossing and it's so all-encompassing.
		All your thoughts are on that movement at that time.
		If you're training, you're rolling, all your thoughts are completely locked in.
		You're not thinking, fuck my electric bill, I forgot to pay it.
		Oh my god, I gotta do this and whatever.
		The end of the month, I owe taxes.
		You're not thinking of any of that shit.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		If you're thinking of any of that stuff, you're quickly going to be choked.
		It's kind of funny, and this is trying to explain that.
		My spouse sees me coming in, my face is all scratched up, I got black eyes.
		She's like, why the fuck are you doing this stuff?
		It doesn't compute to her, but I'm like, it's so fun.
		It's just like, it's so...
		There's such a positive trade-off for that.
		Like I said, I'm just thinking about longevity and stuff like that, and it's like, yeah, if I get hurt, then I can't train, and then that's going to have a negative impact on me, so it's kind of balancing that out so that you can still continue to do the things that keep you healthy and still enjoy this.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The thing is training smart, finding good training partners.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Like, if you train with Greg, I guarantee you it's safer than training with someone who's like a brute of a blue belt.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, he's never hurt me, you know?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		He's never hurt me, but he's submitted me like a gazillion times.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Again, that's what being a black belt's all about.
		But if you can just find training partners like that, and then also drill, you'll be able to train well.
		I mean, Elio Gracie was training well into his 80s.
		But if you watched him train, he was training with his sons, and they were flow rolling.
		So he's always going over the techniques, but there's no spiking him on his head.
		You know what I'm saying?
		The problem is the actual chaos of rolling, where knees get yanked and fucking backs get fucked up.
		That's where the problem lies.
		But if you can train smart and train with other people that are also dedicated to training smart, you can continue your improvement.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's what I look forward to getting back.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I'm thinking probably with this neck thing, probably, you know, you know, three, four months down the road.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's so addictive.
		I remember I was like, I guess I was probably like 27 or 28 the first time I got hurt.
		And I went to a doctor and the doctor was like, well, you got to stop doing jujitsu.
		I was like, okay.
unidentified		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Fix this, and I'm getting right back in there.
		I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
		All I was thinking is, how long do I have to recover from surgery before I can get back to rolling again?
		That's all I was thinking.
		I was not thinking, oh, I have to stop now.
		I was like, what?
		He was saying stop.
		I was like, stop what?
		Stop the one thing that keeps me sane?
		Especially if you're a person that deals with other high-pressure things, it makes those other high-pressure things so much easier.
		It really does.
		And it elevates your human potential.
		Whatever you do in life will be easier to do because you do something that's so much more difficult than anything else.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so it's kind of like taking the cold plunge and the cold shower.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		It's like, if I get up and do that, you said you do that first thing in the morning.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		First thing in the morning.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		So the rest of the day is downhill from there, right?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		I get up, and the first thing in the morning, I'm fucking cold.
		I go out there.
		I'm in a bathroom.
		I'm like, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck.
		It never feels good.
		I never want to do it.
		Every single time, my bitch-ass brain tries to find some way to override my discipline and tell me, you don't have to do it today.
		You've done it three days this week.
		How about take a day off?
		Let's go inside and get a cup of coffee and watch TV. I'm like, shut up, pussy.
		Let's go.
		And then you get in there, and I just stare at my stopwatch.
		I stare at the watch, and I go, when three minutes is over, I'm going to be so happy I did this.
		And every time three minutes is over, I get out.
		I feel amazing.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I think you've got this crazy, like you said, rapid river.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		It keeps circulating in water.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's called a blue cube.
		We have it in here.
		That thing sucks, but it's awesome.
		But you don't have to have it on.
		You can turn it off.
		It's still cold.
		It's still cold as fuck.
		But if you really want to experience the suff...
		The real suffer, crank that bitch up, and it's a raging river.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it pushes the thermal layer away from you.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and it's also really well built.
		It's an awesome machine.
		I can't recommend it enough.
		Blue Cubes are the shit.
		I also, at my home, I have a Morosco Forge, which is amazing, too.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I've been in one of those, yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's great.
		It's cold as shit.
		The whole thing is just suffering.
		The whole thing is getting your body to adapt to this insane environment, making more brown fat, elevating your cold shock proteins, and also ramping up your dopamine in a significant manner.
		When you get out of there, your dopamine ramps up for 200%, and it's like that for hours.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I remember, I can't remember, like, I used to do Ice Pass, you know, back way in the day, and I would sit in there for like 30 minutes.
		I mean, it wasn't as cold as it was, but I'd get out and I'd be euphoric.
		I mean, I would literally be like euphoria.
		It was like, I'd shiver, but I'd be like, it was like I was happy for like hours afterwards.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's what it is.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I have a group of comedians that I'm running on like a little comedy, like a comedy training boot camp.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Get them on carnivore too, right?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I am trying, yes.
		They're going to do it in January.
		I'm working them up to it now.
		World Carnivore Month, which is when I first did it.
		So I've got them now where they're cold plunging after workouts.
		And eventually, within the next couple of weeks, we're going to start with a cold plunge.
		That's next level.
		That's when it gets hard.
		Then I'm saying, look, I start them off.
		Every workout starts out with 100 bodyweight squats, 100 pushups.
		And I tell them, if you can only do 5, do 5. You don't have to do 100. I'm doing sets of 20. If you want to do sets of 5, do 5. The most important thing is we want to build a base.
		So if you get to 5 and you're struggling, stop right there.
		I'm not trying to kill anybody.
		I'm just trying to give you guys a base so you have a good time.
		So we're all laughing.
		We're having a lot of fun.
		I'm running through these workouts.
		We're doing it 3-4 days a week, and then we get in the cold plunge.
		We get in the sauna first, which is the way I've been doing it with them, so they get to the point where they're actually kind of looking forward to the cold.
		Because I don't fuck around with the sauna.
		I get that bitch up to 185 degrees.
		We sit in there for 20 minutes.
		If anybody complains, I throw water on the rocks.
		I'm like, come on, man.
		This is the whole...
		I know you can do this.
		I know you don't want to do this, but the whole idea is when it's done, you're going to feel better because you did a thing that you didn't think you could do or you think you had to quit.
		You don't have to quit because sometimes they'll be in there like, I got to get out.
		No, you don't.
		You have four more minutes.
		You can do anything for four minutes.
		Almost.
		But just fucking concentrate.
		Concentrate and relax and just deal with it.
		Count to ten and then count to ten again and then keep doing that.
		And eventually it'll be four minutes.
		Just do it.
		And then afterwards, I get them in the cold.
		And when I get them in the cold, they get out, they're like, oh my god, I feel amazing.
		I go, don't you feel great?
		So, by doing it this way, where I'm just introducing them First two bodyweight exercises, then to very light kettlebells.
		You know, like 12-pound swings, cleans presses, some windmills.
		And then now I've got them doing renegade rows, a little bit more difficult.
		You know, and then now I've got them doing, you know, like the rogue glute ham machine.
		So I've got them doing like those sit-ups where you hang low and come all the way up.
		I'm like, if you only do three, do three.
		I'm doing sets of 15. You don't have to do what I'm doing.
		Just do, because I've built up to this.
		We're going to do those.
		Then we're going to do some back extensions.
		I'm going to strengthen your core.
		We're going to do some reverse squats with the pulley machine.
		So we're going to do those with 50% of your body weight.
		If you can only do 2, do 2. I want you to get up to 10. And we're going to do sets of 10 eventually.
		But we're going to build a base.
		And so we build this base, and now these guys are fucking happy, they're confident, they're coming to the green room before the show's like, dude, I feel fucking great!
		Like, yes!
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Because, I mean, I imagine, like, I mean, you've been a comic for a long time, right?
		And that's gotta be a tough lifestyle, though, in a way, because you're out late at night all the time.
		It's drinking, smoking, partying.
		I mean, are these guys, because, I mean, obviously the UFC fighters are a different breed than the comics.
unidentified		Yes.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		And are you finding that, like in your own personal experience, that being in shape helps you with your craft?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I think it helps you with everything in life.
		Because it makes your mind function better.
		People want to think that the mind and the body are two separate things.
		They're not.
		You're an entity.
		Your existence is all symbiotic.
		It's all working together.
		If you eat better, if you rest better...
		Look, if I'm tired, like if for some reason I had to travel or this or that or something woke me up and I'm not getting any sleep...
		And I have to do stand-up and I have four hours sleep.
		I don't have as much juice, you know?
		I have to drink like a couple of espressos.
		I have to fucking do some jumping jacks, get my brain fired up.
		And then at night, I'm significantly more tired that day.
		If I sleep eight hours and I eat really good food and I come in there, I have more energy.
		If you have more energy, you'll be better at everything you do.
		There's not a thing you can do other than sleep, where when you have less energy, you do it better.
		Nothing else.
		So if you have more energy, you'll be better at comedy.
		You'll be better at talking to people.
		You'll be better at whatever the fuck it is you do.
		Whether you're an accountant or a fucking songwriter, you'll be better at it if you have more energy.
		It's not like mutually exclusive that you have to be a drunk fatso in order to be a funny comedian.
		It's just not true.
		A lot of drunk fatso's are funny comedians because they're wild, impulsive people and that's fun to watch.
		But they can still be all those things and be healthy.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, I'm not a comic.
		I do some stupid skips that are kind of funny.
		But it takes a lot of creativity and intelligence to be funny.
		I mean, you would know that.
		I mean, it's like something that a lot of comics are very, very intelligent people.
		I mean, I would, you know.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		There's a lot of my friends who are surprisingly funny.
		A lot of them are uneducated.
		But they're also very smart.
		They're very smart.
		They're what you call street smart or wise.
		They get things.
		They understand people.
		They're armchair psychologists.
		They understand what makes people think and behave.
		Like Patrice O'Neil is one of the greatest comics of all time.
		He was diabetic.
		And he was a big, overweight guy, but he was brilliant, and he had an understanding of human psychology that came from life experience and whatever shit he went through when he was younger that he brought to the stage.
		And he would have been better if he was healthy, which is crazy, because he was so good already.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		So these guys that are training with you, they all live in Austin or local comics?
		Yes.
		You've got like a new club or something like that, right?
unidentified		Yes.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Comedy Mothership.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		That's downtown or something like that?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		So these guys are all guys that I work with all the time.
		So if I'm doing shows there Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, I'm doing shows with these guys.
		So there's like a really cool camaraderie and brotherhood with all these guys and we all work out together.
		And, you know, it's like, I don't like that term team building because I don't think about it as like a corporate environment, but there's something to that.
		Like we're all brothers and we get together and we have fun together.
		And they're learning.
		They're learning.
		They're like, oh my god, this actually makes me feel better.
		And they were never involved in anything like this before.
		They never had, like, organized workouts on a regular basis.
		But the fact that they're all going through it together as beginners, and that they're getting guided by someone like me who loves them, and who is already fit, and they could see the benefits.
		And I'm telling them, dude, keep going.
		You will have a fucking six-pack before you know it.
		You will be better.
		You will feel healthier.
		Change your diet.
		Change what you do.
		Change how you live your life.
		Make sure you get your sleep in.
		Start taking vitamins.
		Listen, athletic greens is the fucking easiest thing to take.
		Take a scoop, put it in water, spin it up.
		You got vitamins.
		Dude, give your fucking body the nutrients it deserves.
		Do these things, and you will feel better.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, is there ever, like, I mean, there's some, like, I can remember through the years, like John Belushi, John Candy, these giant, you know, they all died early, right?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Drugs or whatever.
		Probably the obesity didn't help them.
		But is there a danger of, like, once you become that role, like, you're the big heavy guy, you've got to stay that way to get the jobs.
		I mean, like, maybe in Hollywood and stuff like that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, in Hollywood.
		If you want to be a big fat guy in movies, yeah.
		My advice sucks.
unidentified		Yeah.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		You're going to lose your job.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But you don't have to be the big fat guy.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		What's the guy that, he's like, oh, I guess Seth or something like that.
		He's like a red-headed kid.
		He was, uh...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Seth Rogen?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		No, not Seth Rogen.
		There's another, no, I can't remember the guy's name.
		Anyway, he was a big chubby kid and he lost a lot of weight and I can't remember what his name was, but he was in like Superbad or something like that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, um...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Jonah Hill.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah, him.
		So he's like lean battle.
		But he still has a career, I guess.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Of course he does.
		He's talented.
		But also, those movies that he used to be in, they don't fucking make those anymore.
		Because the woke PC culture just fucking threw water on that fire.
		I mean, they used to make movies like Tropic Thunder.
		If you made a movie like Tropic Thunder today, everyone's going to jail.
		Meanwhile, it's one of the greatest comedies of all time.
		Or Superbad.
		You couldn't make Superbad today.
		Jesus Christ, the backlash would be insane.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's crazy how, like, I don't know.
		I mean, I guess Generation X is the toughest generation, you know?
		It's kind of like, you know...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but there's a lot of really funny guys.
		Andrew Schultz is a perfect example.
		One of the best comics alive.
		He's fit, he's thin, he's smart, he doesn't party, and he's still hilarious.
		You don't have to be dying to be a good comic.
		It's not necessary.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I saw there's a comedian.
		His name is Brent Pella.
		Do you know who he is?
		Have you ever seen him?
		He does a lot of these carnivore diet things and stuff.
		Do you know a place called Hop Dottie?
		Have you heard of that place?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's a burger place.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		It's a hamburger place.
		My friend is one of the executives over there.
		And they had Impulse Burger and Beyond Meat on their menu for a while.
		And he was like pissed off about it because he's kind of carnivore leaning.
		And they kept trying to get rid of it, get rid of it.
		And I think one of them paid like a million dollars to keep it on the menu.
		It was like, it was like ridiculous.
		They were just, you know, obviously forcing this on the population.
		And Beyond Meat is just like tank.
		Nobody wants that stuff.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Isn't it crazy how that happened?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		The stock went from like 250, like three years ago to now, it's like five bucks.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's like Not only that, they're fucking getting sued.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Like, people that were shareholders are suing them.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Oh, for, yeah.
		And it's like, so, HopDotty made a video, like, we're getting rid of Beyond Meat, and they threw it in the garbage, and this comic print pal, making this funny little, it's like a three-minute funny video.
		And Beyond Meat actually sent them a cease and desist, stop making fun of us.
		How can you say that?
		I don't know, I guess they did.
		They said, see, don't make fun of us anymore.
unidentified		Oh.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		How can you send a cease and desist for making fun of something?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		That's what they did.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		It was just funny.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I don't think you have to obey that.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's part of culture.
		You can make fun of anything in culture.
		It's in America.
		You see what they're doing in Ireland?
		They're trying to pass some law where if you have memes on your possession.
		So if you have something in your possession that could be used to marginalize or incite violence.
		Which is very open-ended.
		Like, something funny could be used to incite violence in their ridiculous ideology.
		That you could be arrested for that.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, wasn't there a guy that was sentenced to jail for having a meme about Hillary Clinton recently?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		No, he created a parody meme about Hillary Clinton.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		And he went to jail for it, though.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Something happened.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		It's like crazy.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I don't know if he went to jail or if he was convicted of something.
		I don't know what the sentence was.
		But yeah, and this was because they were – what were they saying that was like – Jamie will find it.
		But it's something egregious because it was a very subtle parody where you could say that this was just not true.
		These are falsehoods.
		So here it is.
		Man who spread misinformation on Trump's behalf, sentenced to seven months.
		The man, Douglas Mackey, spread internet memes meant to fool people into not voting for Hillary Clinton in 2016. So what were the memes?
		Let's find out what the memes were.
		Okay, but let's find out what the thing...
		Evidence...
		Hold on, scroll up a little bit.
		Evidence show that the participants discuss generating interest in emails stolen from the Clinton campaign by Russia, portraying Ms. Clinton as a warmonger and promoting the claim that she had cheated during the primaries to get supporters of Senator Bernie Sanders to hate not just Hillary, but the Democratic Party itself.
		Mr. Mackey published, pushed the hashtag, right in Bernie, hashtag right in Bernie, evidence showed, and stated that women and naturalized citizens should not be allowed to vote.
		He also wrote that black people were unintelligent and gullible, and suggested spreading a hashtag, hashtag never vote, in black social media spaces.
		Yeah, but here's the thing, like, this was all parody.
		I'm 90% sure.
		Let's find out what he actually made.
		But I remember looking at the things that he made and going, wow, that was...
		If you didn't know any better.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, you think like today with the AI stuff.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I know you've had like fake AI Joe Rogans, right?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, there's a shitload of them.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		There's going to be stuff that are just like, they're going to take something and make you say something that you never would have said and you...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They're already doing that.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		They're already selling.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I don't know what to do.
		I don't know what I can do.
		I'm selling big dick pills, and I'm selling all kinds of stuff online.
		Rappers are using me to promote themselves.
		I'm talking about this is the hottest rapper alive, and it's an AI-generated voice.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		If you can't do anything against that...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I don't know what you can do.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I mean, what can anyone do?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess you could ask Instagram to take it down, but Instagram has some wild shit up in the algorithm now.
		I see murders every day now.
		Every...
		Tom Segura and I have this thing where every day we send each other the worst shit that we can find.
		And because of that, my algorithm is now conditioned to show me the worst things.
unidentified		Crazy stuff, yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh my god.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Every day it's people getting pulverized.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but they're banning like...
		I saw Chad Mendes.
		You know Chad Mendes, the UFC guy?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		They took down his hunting photos.
		They're saying, you can't put up hunting photos.
		You're showing murders and all this other crap on there?
unidentified		It's crazy.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think they're doing it from these really sketchy accounts, and they just make thousands of these accounts.
		Post that up there.
		It says, Twitter user convicted for false voting information, not Hillary Clinton memes.
		Fact check.
		Okay, but this is like USA Today.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Who are the fact checkers?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		USA Today.
		It's just fucking mainstream.
		Go back to that, please.
		Oh, sorry, the pop-up ad popped up.
		So scroll down, and what is it saying?
		Instagram post directly, scroll back up, so I can read that.
		Includes a screenshot of post on X, formerly Twitter, that claims social media user is being imprisoned for political memes.
		Breaking.
		Twitter user Douglas Mackey sentenced to seven months in prison for being found guilty of election interference for making memes.
		Asparaging Hillary Clinton, reads the post.
		Which links to a post-millennial story making the same claim.
		It received more than 70,000 likes in two days.
		Another version of the post shared on X by right-wing commentator Dinesh D'Souza received nearly 1,300 shares.
		Scroll back down.
		Okay, R rating, false.
		Making memes disparaging political figures is not illegal.
		Mackey was sentenced for posting memes that encourage Clinton supporters to vote via text message, which is not a valid way to vote.
		Let's see if we can find the memes.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it has a link for it, but...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But no, no, that's a direct link to something that said he was sentenced to prison for political commentary.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		It generally would have the meme in these posts, though, so...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, does it?
unidentified		I don't...
unidentified		I mean, we had to check.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Let's see.
		You're going to Gulag?
		No, that's them doing that.
		That's different.
		Let's see if we can find what his memes were that he made.
		Douglas Mackey memes.
		There they go.
		Okay.
		That's not really a meme, though, either.
		Kind of is.
		Save time.
		Avoid the line.
		Vote from home.
		Text Hillary to 59925 and we'll make history together this November 8th.
		Okay.
		That's borderline, right?
		Because that is kind of misinformation.
		I don't think the guy should go to jail for it.
		But click on that one in the upper right-hand corner.
		Yeah, that one.
		It says, vote for her.
		Vote from home.
		Post Hillary using hashtag presidential election.
		Yeah.
		This is definitely not true.
		There's nothing funny about that.
		Right.
		Right.
		That is, yeah, that's different.
		Avoid the line vote from home.
		Text Hillary.
		Yeah.
		Okay.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		So I wonder how many people got fooled by that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		A lot.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it said over five, like somewhere in the range of 5,000 people texted one of those numbers or something like that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure.
		I'm sure they did.
		Because if you saw that and you go, oh, all I have to do is this, and I don't have to vote in person.
		Yeah, if you're not aware, I could see how that could get you.
		So that's, yeah, that's a little different than a meme.
		I mean, it's kind of a meme, but it really is...
		I mean, that kind of falls under misinformation.
		I don't think the guy should go to jail for it, but...
		You probably shouldn't be allowed to...
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Maybe lose your account or something like that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Because I got banned from Twitter for a year.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And for what?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		They said there was copyrighted music, music playing in the background on one of my videos.
		We're going to ban you for life.
		And I was like, ban me for life?
		There's people out here promoting murder and death, and they're on there.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The Taliban's on there.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Right, exactly.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		It's kind of crazy.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's not that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It was that you were promoting this alt-right lifestyle of eating meat only.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Well, and exercise.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And exercise.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's very problematic, Sean.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		It is.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		It is problematic.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		We can't have people eating meat and being healthy and working out.
		That's fucked up.
		I don't know why you did it, and I hope you've changed your ways.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm working on that.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		So, like I said, we talked about that debate with the wacko view.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
		That was my favorite one you've ever done.
		So, I don't know when this took place, but I just discovered it.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		No, it was recently.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		It was like two weeks ago.
unidentified		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I just discovered a couple of days ago, but you are debating this guy, and you, by the way, you played this brilliantly, where you just had this, like, little smile on your face, and you let him talk, and this guy was saying that you've never met a vegan like me.
		Not only do I not think that you should eat meat, because you were talking about the animal kingdom.
		What about the animal kingdom?
		He was like, oh, I don't think the animal kingdom should exist.
unidentified		Right.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I think we should replace it with human infrastructure.
		He was saying that he thinks that all animal prey, predators and prey, that's all problematic.
		And we shouldn't have any of that.
		So he's for eliminating all animal life.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		It's kind of bizarre.
		I was just like, I don't even have to say anything.
		It's not even a debate.
		All I got to do is just let you talk for like...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		By the way, where does this motherfucker think fertilizer comes from?
		How are you going to grow your vegetables?
		What are you going to do?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		He doesn't care about that.
		He said basically, I don't care if you kill billions of creatures to grow avocados.
		It doesn't matter to me.
		That's fine.
		He went as far as saying, even if they were humans you were slaughtering to produce crops that I ate, that's fine.
		But if you feed it for a cow and then kill the cow, that's a rights violation.
		That's a problem.
		And then he said he won the debate because I said...
		I probably wouldn't eat a homo erectus.
		You know, like he said, well, if we could bring back something as close to homo sapien, but not exactly.
		You're trying to get me to say it's okay to eat humans, but that's the only reason.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's how he won the debate?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's how he claims he won the debate.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		If you say, I don't think you should eat orangutans.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Right, right, right.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Then he won.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Then he won.
		That was the whole thing.
		It was just bizarre.
		It was funny.
		I mean, it was hilarious.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, he's in a cult.
		Whether he realizes it or not, he's in a cult, and this cult is not based on any objective assessment of the reality of biological life on Earth.
		It's just not.
		It's like, to say that you think all animal life should die, are you including insects?
		Because if you include insects, then you're including bees, then there's no pollination.
		What are you saying?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, our species, if there were no animals, we would all be dead, too.
		Everything would be gone.
		So it's like, you know, it's almost like, well, you don't really seem like you fit too well on this planet, dude.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that's a deeply unhappy person that's probably very depressed and also a contrarian to the point of complete illogical thinking.
		Like, the idea that you would think that all predator and prey animals that exist on Earth, including Africa, in the wild, like, areas where there are no human beings ever, and these animals all coexisted in this very balanced food chain where you have predators and prey and the predators keep the prey animals in check and that there's this, like, balance in terms of population.
		The fact that you think that human beings should somehow or another stop that and replace it with human infrastructure.
		That's basically what he's saying, right?
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Pave it all over with a parking lot and grow food in a factory.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		See if you can find that guy.
		It's hilarious.
		Because I don't think he understands, like...
		Plants literally survive on biological material that is being broken down by the natural process and converted into fertilizer.
		There's this symbiotic relationship.
		They breathe in carbon dioxide and breathe out oxygen.
		We breathe in oxygen, we breathe out carbon dioxide.
		The more carbon dioxide, which is a real problem with the whole climate crisis things, the Earth's literally never been greener in observable history.
		Right now, with the higher levels of CO2 in the atmosphere, you literally have a greening of the Earth.
		The whole thing is super complicated.
		And to try to boil it down into some very easy-to-follow way because it supports your ideology is what most people are doing.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, Jamie, if you go to my Instagram, like, a couple back, like, there was that guy.
		I think it's like, I take on the final vegan boss or something like that.
		It was like...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Did you put those seed oil bottles behind him?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		No, he did.
		It was his.
		Because he's a big promoter.
		There's a whole argument about you should be drinking gallons of canola oil and it makes you healthy.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So he did this?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Give me some volume and refresh this so I can hear what this guy says because it's really funny.
unidentified		I think the natural world is actually morally problematic and I advocate for its non-existence.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Can you expand upon that?
		What does that mean?
		You advocate for getting rid of the natural world and we live in a...
unidentified		Oh, absolutely.
unidentified		The natural world is filled with death and destruction, things I find morally problematic.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		What would you replace that with?
unidentified		Human infrastructure.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Human infrastructure?
unidentified		And you're saying we would do a better job as humans Yeah, I would even go so far as I think the end goal should be to ditch this ball because it's a liability in and of itself.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		But a lot of people might find that problematic.
unidentified		It's fine.
		People are free to think that I have a weird position.
		Just on that, Sean, like, do you see where he's coming from there?
		I haven't given this...
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I can see his argument.
		I would disagree with that pretty...
		I don't think, you know...
unidentified		Would you disagree that if you make human infrastructure over where there is usually a huge amount of suffering and death and rights violations, most likely this...
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		So I guess if we're calling a rights violation a lion eating a zebra, would that fall into your definition of a rights violation?
unidentified		On my definition, yeah.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Okay, interesting.
		So who's the other guy?
		I'll tell you this.
		So the other guy, he's a vegan activist.
		His name's James Aspie.
		And he used to be like a drug addict, and now he's vegan.
		And he made this rap video saying I was afraid of him and wouldn't debate him.
		And I was like, okay, whatever, James.
		But he wanted a partner to debate with me.
		And I said, I don't want to bring somebody on.
		And this is the other guy he picked as his backup.
		And I'm like, he's probably regretting he brought this guy on now because he's like such a wacko.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, the other guy, not the final vegan boss, but the other guy is like, don't you see his point?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Rights violations.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Rights violations.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So a mountain lion eating a mule deer is a rights violation?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Well, then I asked him, I asked him, because then I go on to ask him, I said, well, what about the lion that needs to eat?
		Doesn't he have any rights?
		He goes, oh, I don't care about them.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I'm like, oh, God.
		So let's eat them.
		Let's eat the lions.
		Let's only eat predators.
		No.
		That's a rights violation, too.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		That's a right violation, too.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they're bizarre.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's just a complete...
		It's convenient thinking.
		It's not based on facts.
		I mean, it's one of the things that's been discussed ad nauseum, but Ted Nugent covered it.
		That if you want to kill the most things, eat a vegan diet.
		If you're thinking...
		Like, you made this argument that one cow...
		One cow is one life, and it's probably better to eat cows, because if you eat a cow, that's an enormous animal, and you could eat that cow for like six months.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, how long does an elk last you, Joe?
unidentified		Months.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Months.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's interesting.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I was just...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Hundreds of pounds!
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I was just in Oregon, and that's the end of the Lewis and Clark Trail, right?
		And you read back there, have you ever read the history of the Lewis and Clark Exposition?
		Those guys were eating up to nine pounds of meat a day when they had A lot of game.
		They had 31 dudes and they would go through, like, every day they'd go through four deer or an elk and a deer or a buffalo.
unidentified		A lot of bear.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They ate a lot of bear.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Stuff like that.
		Have you ever eaten bear?
		I've never had it.
		How's it taste?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I got some here.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You can have some.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I'd like to try it.
unidentified		It'd be awesome.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I'll give you some.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Awesome.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Cam Haynes shot a bear and he turned it into pepperoni sticks.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		What kind of bear was it?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Black bear.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Black bear.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		But you can eat grizzly bears, too.
		The problem with bears is...
		The real problem...
		In society is that people view them as what my friend Steve Rinella likes to call charismatic megafauna.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Because we think of it as like yogi bear and only you can prevent forest fires and, you know, teddy bears and all that shit.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Not teddy bears.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But yeah, they're fucking giant predators.
		But when you eat grizzlies and you eat particularly brown bear that are coastal, which are the really large ones, they're eating a lot of fish and they might taste like shit.
		Whereas if you get a black bear that is munching on blueberries, they're sensational.
		Steve Rinella says it's some of the best meat he's ever eaten in his life.
		And when there's a video of him, see if you could find Steve Rinella blueberry bear.
		So they specifically target these fall bears that are eating blueberries.
		And when he opens it up, he says they smell like blueberries.
		Their fat is purple.
		And he said the meat is delicious.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		So this is an interesting thing because...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So this is him, right, what he's doing now.
		This is Steve after he's shot the animal.
		And these are pieces of meat that he's quartered up.
		And so he's taking this fat...
		And this fat has a blue, see how it has like a blue hue to it?
unidentified		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's from the berry.
		Give me some volume.
		Does it say anything?
unidentified		Oh, there's good stuff right there.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So he's gonna start.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		He's up in Alaska or something like that, isn't he?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, he lives in Montana, but he has a fish shack in Alaska.
		And I think, I believe he was hunting them in Alaska.
		Because that's where, you know, he'll specifically target them where they're eating blueberries.
unidentified		Getting into the sirloin here.
		I just want some red meat.
		There's some good stuff.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And so what he's doing now is he's going to use a jet boil, and he's going to cook the meat in the fat.
		So that fat, if you look at it, it's got like a blue hue to it, like a reddish blue hue to it from blueberries.
		So he cooks that down, gets the oil, gets it fat, and then he dunks...
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		So he gets a bunch of hot, melted fat, and then he cooks it.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		It's like confit, like a confit duck.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You have to make sure you cook it to 150 plus degrees to avoid trichinosis.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I forget what the number is.
unidentified		That fat will wind up sitting on top of the water.
		But for deep frying meat, it's better to have pure oil.
		But if you just wanted oil out to drink, just if you needed like, you know, a quick energy charge, you can do it that way a lot faster than rendering it like this.
		My brother one time I watched, he like rendered a mug full of bear fat and just drank it like coffee.
		That's how good that stuff is.
		And hunters like Daniel Boone, I mean, that guy would shoot bears just for oil.
		He could sell the stuff.
		It was a marketable commodity.
		You can continue to cook these fat pieces down, down, down.
		And they'll just mind being crispy little treats like little pork.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		How hard is it to get a bear tag?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's not that hard, depending on where you go.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They're overpopulated in a lot of areas.
unidentified		Really?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You want to hear something crazy?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What state would you think has the largest population of bears per capita?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Per capita?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, take a guess.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Per capita, Wyoming.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		New Jersey.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		New Jersey?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		New Jersey has a real bear problem.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of people living in New Jersey.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I know.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		A kid a few years back who was going to Rutgers got killed by a bear out there.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Like black bears?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Black bear, yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Black bears are more likely for some reason to kill people for food, whereas brown bears and grizzly bears, generally they kill people because they get startled or it's a mama and her cubs.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I had a black bear walk through my backyard.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I got it on video up in Washington.
unidentified		Pretty cool.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was pretty good.
		My spouse was taking a bath.
		She heard the dogs barking.
		She looks out, there's a freaking bear walking.
		I was out of town.
		She's like, oh my God, there's a bear.
		But the interesting thing, you said about the blue stuff and the fat.
		So, Jamie, I've got a paper, I think it's from Stephan Van Vliet, about phytonutrients in meat.
		So we talk about phytonutrients, right?
		You gotta get all your plants to get your phytonutrients.
		Meat actually contains thousands of phytonutrients.
		So when those animals graze, they actually absorb that phytonutrients, and it goes into their fat, into their tissue, and so you actually get it in almost as much or even more than you can get in plants, because we ignore that.
		But meat, like Stephan Van Vliet, who was a researcher, Initially out of Duke, he's not like Utah State, showed that meat has something like 50,000 unique compounds.
		It's not just amino acids and a little bit of vitamins and minerals.
		It's 50,000 unique compounds, and many of them are phytonutrients.
		So it's pretty amazing.
		Because a bear can eat a hell of a lot more than I can.
		There it is.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Health-promoting phytonutrients are higher in grass-fed meat and milk.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But you don't necessarily gravitate towards grass-fed.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I do both.
		You know, it's one of those things that, you know, I mean, I don't know what your opinion is on taste.
		I mean, I know you like a lot of elk.
		And so, you know, it's kind of funny because I become like the meathead guy, right?
		Like everybody, I get a lot of ranchers to send me stuff.
		They're like, here, have some free meat.
		I'm like, hell yeah, I'll eat that stuff.
		And I get, you know, I get a little bit of everything.
		I get some really crazy, like, there's a, well, one in Colorado, Colorado Craft Beef, which Jaco has invested in.
		They're part of that partnership.
		They got really good meat, but it's, you know, it's pasture raised, and then they feed it, and they finish it out themselves, and they have their own facility.
		But there's like one in like Montana.
		They finish their cows out on sprouts, which is kind of interesting.
		And sprouts can grow like, you don't even need light.
		All you need is water.
		And they grow very massively.
		And so this guy said in a building that's like 40 by 60, he can grow enough sprouts to finish out 400 head of cattle, which takes up almost no room.
		It's like amazing.
		So it's called McCafferty Ranch Beef up in Montana.
		And they're trying to, you know, trying to Spread is because you think about we're talking about how do we sustainably feed people more meat because I think that's a real issue.
		And that's, you know, one of those things that's out there.
		So it's kind of because I think, you know, again, I don't think everybody needs to be on carnival, but I do think we should probably eat less junk food, more meat.
		I mean, I think that would be a clear win for society in general.
		And it's like, well, how do you do that?
		I mean, we used to have...
		This goes back to the beef checkoff.
		I mean, their job is to promote beef, but since 1977, our beef consumption in the U.S. is down like 30%, 40%, and yet diseases are going up.
		So it's like the exact opposite direction.
		And literally, like half a million ranchers have gone out of business since the 70s.
		I mean, it's like we talk about 3,000 farms closing in the Netherlands.
		Half a million have gone out of business here in the U.S., which is...
		Chris, I'm always trying to support your local rancher, you know, whatever your preference is, but, you know, get these guys out there, because, I don't know, I mean, these guys are good.
		I mean, just like everybody else, I mean, ranchers are hard-working people.
		I think they're one of the backbones of this country.
		I mean, you know, you get people that feed you.
		I mean, whatever it was, because it used to be back in, you know, 200 years ago, everybody had produced their own food.
		Now you've got like 2% of the population feeding all the rest of us.
		And I mean, you know, I mean...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I had Walt Harris.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Will Harris.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Will Harris.
		Will Harris and his...
		Sorry, Will.
		And his daughter Jenny on recently.
		And they explained...
		And I've had Will on twice.
		And he explained his situation where he developed this...
		Regenerative farm from what used to be an industrialized farm and how difficult it was.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I'm reading his book right now.
		It's amazing.
		It's amazing.
		I've interviewed Will before, too.
		I've interviewed all these regenerative guys, and I'm totally for that.
		I think it's wonderful.
		It's great.
		It improves the ecosystem.
		It's like something we need more of.
		It's just incentivizing the guys, because a lot of the guys are on more kind of a commodity beef, which he likes to call it.
		He doesn't like it anymore.
		A lot of those guys are like, I'm worried I'm going to go out of business if I try this, because maybe they're up in North Dakota where it snows all the time, and they're like, where am I going to get the alfalfa and the hay to feed this stuff?
		And it's just, it's kind of a, you know...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, you have to do what you have to do.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		He's lucky he's in Georgia.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Well, he's in a good place.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		He admits I've got perfect land for this, and not everybody has that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But he's also recreating nature in a contained environment, which is really what we should all be striving for.
		What we want is these animals to exist in a way that's ethical, humane, and that they exist in a way that they've existed for hundreds of thousands of years.
		And that's how they're healthy.
		And if you eat that, you will be healthier.
		There's no pesticides, herbicides, no bullshit involved.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's the other thing, because you've heard of glyphosate, right?
		So they spray it on everything.
		They've been spraying it on everything since, I don't know, the 1980s or something like that.
		Now it's showing up in your urine.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		And most of it accumulates in grains and legumes and stuff like that.
		That's where it's most densely found.
		So if you want to avoid that stuff, don't eat that stuff.
		Eat more of a meat base.
		Because mammals basically break it down so it doesn't really show up in their meat and their milk very much.
		It's very limited.
		Yeah.
		It's, you know, it's like these guys that are due regenerative, they don't need any herbicides.
		They don't need any pesticides.
		So you get rid of all that stuff.
		Saves them money in the long run.
		But it's like they said, you've got to go through the threat of going out of business for five years or six years before you can make it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, it took him like 20 years to convert that farm.
		Which is an amazing task that he achieved.
		But because of that, it's like a shining light to all these people.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I mean, we should subsidize that stuff.
		That's what we should do.
		Instead of subsidizing all these wheat and grain and corn commodities, which go into potato chips and garbage.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Well, that's what's crazy about, you know, we demonize Russia.
		But Putin banned GMO foods.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Well, do you see what they did in Italy?
		Maloney said no lab-grown meat.
		Because that's another thing.
		Because, you know, the plant...
		Like, people have...
		Caught on to the Beyond Burgers and Impossible Meat.
		It's just all ultra-processed garbage.
		And the people are speaking with their wallet.
		When I look at all the corporate sort of malfeasance and the corporate influence, the corporations own the politicians.
		You've got to know that.
		They're paying the politicians in one way or the other.
		And it's like, what can I do as a lone individual?
		And it's like, all you can do really is vote with your pocketbook.
		And just every time you go to the store and you buy that bullshit, that crappy food, you're putting more money in their pockets.
		And they have more power over you.
		And so I'm just like, you gotta turn it around.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, in a perfect world, they would invest all their money into regenerative farming.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		If people change their diet and they realize, look, the only thing people are buying is grass-fed meat and organic vegetables, all from regenerative organic farms, if that really became something that was sustainable, they would try to pursue that.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no, I think the market will dictate where things go, and it's just convincing the market that, hey, look, you know, if you want to continue to be Sad and depressed and miserable.
		Keep doing what you're doing, but you got to change it.
		You know, you got to make a big change.
		And that's what, you know, I mean, we'd be told not to do it.
		Just like that USDA study.
		Hey, 91% processed food diet.
		That's okay.
		Keep eating this way.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So crazy.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		It is crazy.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's why what makes that sort of propaganda so insidious.
		It's like you're literally holding back people from gaining health and gaining control of their health.
		And the evidence is clear in terms of if you just look at what people used to look like and what they look like now.
		Something's wrong.
		Something's really wrong.
		And all that comes from diet.
		Yeah, sedentary lifestyle and diet.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's but I mean I will say this and because you I mean I'm sure you agree that what distinguishes healthy people that age in a very healthy matter.
		I mean diet is important and I'm a huge proponent but physical activity and Exercise is such a huge.
		I mean, I don't care what diet you are.
		You need to be taking care of your health and I think You know, because I hear it all the time.
		Oh, you're in your 50s.
		You need to slow down.
		You need not be doing that stuff because you're going to get hurt and it's time to get down.
		But I mean, I've heard that since I've been 20 or 30. Oh, you're 30. You've got to slow down.
		I think once you lose capacity, like, you know, if you say, like, my 100% was here, and then you say, I'm not going to do 100% anymore.
		I'm just going to do 90%.
		Well, that 90% is now your 100%.
		And then you keep doing it, and all of a sudden, it's like, you know, walking down the street is now a chore, you know?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Right.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		And you see so many people.
		It's like, I had a guy talk to me about, I thought it was a good guy named Ted Naiman, he's a doctor that I interviewed one time, he said, you know, what happens is, over life, you have this sort of spectrum of things you can do.
		This is me laying in bed, and this is me doing backflips, right?
		And then it gets smaller.
		And smaller.
		And eventually you're like, all I can do is walk around the house and then all I can do is lay in bed and then you're dead.
		So you need to keep this as broad as possible.
		And that's why I say when people say, you need to slow down.
		I'm like, bullshit, man.
		You've got to train smart and you don't get hurt.
		But you need to push yourself.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Also, if anybody watches your workouts, clearly you don't need to slow down.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Because you're doing some pretty extraordinary stuff and you're deep into your 50s.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, just like you.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Same thing, right?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and when we were kids, we were told that when you get into your 50s, it's over.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You know, have you ever seen those images where they show Archie Bunker and Judith Bunker?
unidentified		Yeah, when they're like 38. Fred Sanford was like 48 when he was on Sanford and Sons.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's crazy.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, big belly, gray hair.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I can't believe that stuff.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They weren't healthy.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They didn't take care of themselves.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		That's amazing.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They didn't work out.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But if you look at some people today, like yourself, there's a whole new standard.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Well, you look at guys like Stallone and Schwarzenegger, they're mid-70s now, and they're still like...
		I mean, granted, they're taking stuff, but I mean, at the same point, we've never had a time in human history where we've experienced people that are pushing it that way and still training hard into the late years.
		And I've seen people like...
		In their 90s, I saw a guy who's 91 years old.
		He's deadlifting 405 for a triple at 90, and he only weighs like 148. That's incredible.
		It's like, where did this guy come from?
		So it's like, what is going to be possible?
		And you know, like I said, I don't know.
		I always, the longevity stuff, I was like, I don't know.
		I mean, I don't think anybody really, really knows.
		I think you're just speculating.
		My thing is like, Let's get healthy today.
		Let's stop being sick and then just keep doing that.
		And then if you live extra long, great.
		But, you know, because a lot of people say, well, if you eat a carnivore diet, you're going to have a heart attack at 60. I'm like, I don't know that that's true.
		I mean, maybe I will, but I don't think we have enough data to support that.
		What I can say is, like, if you're sick, you're diabetic, you're fat, you're high blood pressure, I can fix that by diet.
		Let's just do that, and I think we would just focus on that instead of, like, protecting people from cancer when they're 90, which is like, you don't even know.
		The evidence is so bad on that stuff.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, what we know, what you can do for what you are right now, where you are right now, that if you change your diet and you eat healthier foods and you exercise, you'll feel better, you'll be better.
		That's a fact.
		Whether or not you're looking at, like, look, clearly these people that are eating off the Twinkie tree, they're not worried about being 150 years old either.
		Like, this is nonsense, and that's a bullshit argument.
		Like, you're going to get off a heart attack, you're going to die young.
		And what, your sedentary lifestyle, eating fucking Oreos?
		You're going to be okay?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I mean, there's some people that say, we've only got a limited number of heartbeats, and I don't want to, you've ever heard that argument?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I've heard that.
unidentified		What?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		You gotta be crazy.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But that's based on who and what.
		Like, based on what?
		Says who?
		That doesn't make any sense.
		It doesn't make any sense.
		Do we have a number of calf contractions that you're allowed to have?
		Your heart is a muscle.
		Like, who says?
		If your heart is healthier because your whole body is healthier, you're more metabolically healthy, I would imagine that everything's healthier.
		Your brain.
		People that are fit and older, their brains work better.
		Everything works better.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		It's just good.
		Hey, Jamie, there's a picture of a gal with blonde hair.
		Do you see that one?
		I just want to show this gal because it's quite interesting because people are asking, where's the people that have been doing carnivore for a while?
		So there's a rancher.
		Her name is Maggie.
		I can't remember.
		Maybe Maggie White or something.
		She's up in Alberta, Canada.
		She's been doing supposedly a carnivore diet since she's like 15. She's now 82. And if you can find a picture, she just looks like that's her.
		She's 82. That's insane.
		And she's busting her ass, working on a ranch every day.
		She's learning Spanish because she's getting tired of how the Canadian government is screwing her ranchers.
		She wants to move down to Bolivia and start a new ranch in Bolivia.
		She's 82, learning Spanish.
unidentified		She's starting a new ranch in Bolivia at 82. That's amazing.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		That's a current picture.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		And a friend of mine went to go visit her and looked at her birth certificate and her driver's life and verified.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And that's literally what she looks like at 82. Well, that's 82 years of no bullshit in your body and being physically active.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's amazing.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It can do that for you.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		So we'll see what happens.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		You know, like I said, if the vegans are right, you and I are dropping dead of a heart attack in six months.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They're going to drop dead, too.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Listen, it's all nonsense.
		So I had a, you know, talking about debating the vegans.
		I used to not do it because it was such a waste.
		I find it was a waste of time, but now I'm kind of humoring it just because, I don't know, I guess I'm bored.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, listen, if you can get a result like the guy with the canola oil behind him, that's amazing entertainment.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		It was.
		I thought it was.
		I didn't learn anything except how crazy these people are.
		I had a guy that I was like, you know, he's saying, well, you know, you're going to get cancer or heart disease.
		And I said, hey, well, what do you think vegans are dying of, right?
		What do you think they die of?
		And he goes, well, I don't know, skiing accidents?
		And I was like, that's bullshit, man.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They're all dying skiing.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So if they didn't ski, they'd live forever?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Right, right.
		So I looked it up, and I looked up studies that actually had endpoints of death on vegans.
		And number one cause of death is heart disease and cancer.
		It's like, You guys have the same thing as everybody else.
		So all you got to do is all those years of suffering and farting and pretending, you know, virtue signaling.
		For what?
		You drop dead anyway.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, another part of the problem is they've become attached to an ideology that's very difficult for them to escape.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And when they do try to escape that ideology, they get attacked.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's amazing.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's vicious.
		Oh my God.
		There was this one vegan influencer who ate a piece of salmon and just felt amazing.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I believe so.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And then they started fucking it.
		And she was attacking her and she was crying.
		But immediately started feeling better because she's giving her body what she needs.
		How many of these people are suffering?
		If you think of the vitriol that comes from the vegan community and so much anger and so much hate and just horrible things they say about people.
		How much of that is based on, like, hurt people hurt people, right?
		How much of that is based on them being in pain and them being in agony, whether it's mental anguish because their brain's not functioning well, their body's not functioning, they're overwhelmed with inflammation, their guts are filled with fiber?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, if you imagine, like, if you literally, like, believe the ideology really hard, you literally hate almost all of humanity.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		It's like every 99 out of 100 people you see, you're like, I hate you because you're a murderer.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Right.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		You know, it's like, how do you even live in that society where you literally hate every human being around you?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it's got to be crazy.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's not good for you.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's not good.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, for sure.
		Yeah, there was a guy in that movie Game Changers, you know, that vegan sports film.
		And he was going to be in the movie.
		They had filmed all this stuff.
		His name was Tim Sheaf.
		He was like an obstacle course, like, you know, those obstacle race guys, right?
		Ninja guy, American ninja type thing.
		And he was like the vegan prince.
		Like, they loved him.
		And then he said he got sick.
		And he was like, I couldn't do it anymore.
		And they, like, literally threw him out of the movie.
unidentified		You know, because...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's so many stories of that.
		That's what's fascinating.
		There's so many stories of people who were vegan that had to abandon it, including a lot of celebrities that have come out.
		And when they do that, they get attacked.
		They get attacked viciously instead of people going, interesting.
		That's an interesting point of data.
		Instead of saying it that way, you're going against an ideology.
		It's not about facts.
		It's not about the reality.
		Of the science or what we know about nutrition in the human body.
		It's about being attached to this ideology that makes you superior morally to the people that are around you.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I always laugh when they say, I'm going to eat this guilt-free, whatever, salad.
		I'm like, no, there's a lot of things that die to get you that salad.
		But they're just like, oh, that doesn't count.
		It's kind of crazy.
		But they'll point out, there literally are people that...
		Do reasonably well on a vegan diet.
		I don't know if you know him.
		I'm sure you know him.
		They talk about Nate Diaz.
		He's a UFC fighter.
unidentified		He's not vegan.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		That's what I heard.
		He eats fish and stuff like that.
		But they always point to Nate Diaz.
		They point to him as the guy like Novik Djokovic, who also is not vegan, but they keep pointing to him.
		It's just kind of like he also eats fish and stuff like that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, how about when they put athletes on vegan diets and they get these catastrophic injuries?
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Cam Newton was the prototype for that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		There's a bunch of those guys, because you're not getting a lot of the things that you need.
		You're not getting creatine, unless you're supplementing.
		You're not getting...
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		You're not getting taurine, carnosine, carnitine.
		I mean, all these things that are either conditionally beneficial or absolutely needed, and you're just not seeing that.
		So we see that.
		Like, there was a...
		A depression study, Stanford University, 2018, people with major depressive disorders have low levels of carnitine.
		Where do you get carnitine from?
		You pretty much only get it from animal products.
		It's like your brain turns back on.
		These people say their brain reset when they got the right food.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Well, listen, man, I'm glad you're out there preaching the gospel.
		And I'm glad you're still alive all these years later.
		You're still healthy and everything's fine.
		And I think what you're doing is important because I think people need to understand that We've been kind of hoodwinked in more ways than one and that you can kind of follow the chain of evidence and you can figure out how this happened and why this happened.
		And it's not to preserve your health.
		It's not evidence-based.
		And when you look at the real evidence that supports vegan diets and supports that meat is bad for you, you find out that that's a bunch of chicanery too.
		There's a lot of bullshit going on there, and so I'm glad you're out there, Sean.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I appreciate it.
		Appreciate giving me the platform to talk on this show, because I think, like I said, it's literally, it's helping people, and I think anything that helps people, we should be in favor of, and like I said, I think, because we're seeing...
		People are like saying, we need to shut down meat.
		We can't eat it anymore.
		And I think that's a really, it's going to have some really bad unintended consequences.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So tell everybody where they can find your content and your social media.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so first thing, companyrivero.com, R-E-V-E-R-O, if you want to get your health taken care of, all 50 states.
		I'm on social media, Instagram, Sean, S-H-A-W-N, Baker, B-A-K-E-R. On Twitter, I'm at SBakerMD.
		I've got a YouTube channel.
		It's SeanBakerMD, and that's mostly where I'll be.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		All right, brother.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Thanks for being here.
dr shawn baker ▲ ● ▼		Appreciate you.
unidentified		All right.

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