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April 7, 2021 - The Joe Rogan Experience
03:34:26
JRE MMA Show #107 with Georges St-Pierre
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g
georges st-pierre
02:02:01
j
joe rogan
01:29:55
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jamie vernon
00:13
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unidentified
Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!
The Joe Rogan Experience.
Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.
georges st-pierre
How many times a week do you have two guests during a day?
joe rogan
It's rare, but I did it once last week and then today.
Wow.
georges st-pierre
That burns you?
joe rogan
Nah, it's just talking.
It's no big deal.
georges st-pierre
Are we up?
joe rogan
Yeah, okay, go ahead.
georges st-pierre
It's insane, you know?
joe rogan
Why is it insane?
georges st-pierre
Because, man, sometimes, you know, I can train all day, you know, but if I do something like this, like autograph signing or any, like, things that require more, I would say, You know, meet and greet and stuff like that, that take more out of me than a physical, something physical like a training.
joe rogan
That's just because you're accustomed to training all the time.
It's like everything else, like the more accustomed to it you are, the easier it is.
georges st-pierre
Man, anyway, you look fantastic.
joe rogan
Thanks, you do too!
georges st-pierre
You haven't aged a bit, you're like wine, you get better with age.
joe rogan
I like the frosted tips, man.
What are you doing?
georges st-pierre
Change my style.
You know, when you get older, you try to look younger.
When you're younger, you try to look older.
joe rogan
Right.
That's true.
Like, young guys try to grow beards.
georges st-pierre
That's right.
unidentified
Come on, man.
joe rogan
Let it go.
georges st-pierre
I just shaved.
I had Lex Freeman podcast yesterday.
joe rogan
Yes.
georges st-pierre
And I told myself, I said, you know what, it will look weird if I appear on both podcasts in Austin with the same style, you know?
So it's better that I, when they put it on the social media, at least it's kind of a different look.
joe rogan
I saw with Lex, you wore the suit and tie just like him, right?
georges st-pierre
Men in black style, that's right.
joe rogan
Nice, nice.
Reservoir dogs.
georges st-pierre
Yes, exactly.
unidentified
Look at that.
joe rogan
Look at you too.
I love Lex.
He's such a great guy.
georges st-pierre
He's amazing.
I really enjoyed talking to guys like this because you don't meet people like this every day.
He's so educated, so smart.
unidentified
Yes.
joe rogan
But also a martial artist.
georges st-pierre
Yeah.
That's right.
He says that he was a big fan.
He was kind of intimidated.
I said, I'm intimidating talking to you, Lex, because I cannot teach you anything.
You know, like, you can teach me stuff.
I can learn from you.
You cannot, you know, in regards of perhaps martial art, yes, but in terms of life, I'm like, in terms of knowledge, you can teach me so much more than I can do.
joe rogan
It's true.
If you talk to him about artificial intelligence and AI and machine learning and everything, like, oof.
georges st-pierre
Bro, yesterday we went deep in the rabbit hole.
You know, like in your podcast, sometimes you curves, you go in the field.
With Lex, yesterday we went in the right field, like far away.
joe rogan
What did you discuss?
What was it?
georges st-pierre
Man, at one point, I was the one interviewing him.
Because I'm curious, the podcast took another turn, like 180 degrees.
I was the one interviewing him because I'm so curious.
You know, when I meet someone like him, I take advantage of it.
You know, like it's...
I think he likes it and I ask him about what he thinks about free will, if he thinks at one point AI could be a potential threat for humanity.
joe rogan
What do you think about that?
georges st-pierre
He actually changed my mind quite a bit on the subject.
joe rogan
Did you think it could be a threat and now you don't?
georges st-pierre
No, on free will.
Oh, free will.
I never, like, before I met Lex, like, yesterday, before that, I thought that free will was just an illusion and everything is a result of causality, right?
joe rogan
Right, determinism.
georges st-pierre
Determinism, that's right.
A lot of people don't know, but that's called determinism.
But Lex came up with the...
Like very good argument and now I'm not so sure anymore.
joe rogan
I think both things are true.
I think it's like many things involving human beings.
There's not an absolute in one side or the other.
For sure, free will is a thing.
Because we both know about discipline.
We both know how difficult it is.
Like you know more than anybody how difficult it is when you're in like a full training camp and you're exhausted, but you know you have the work that you have to do.
And there's some people that will find a way out of that work.
They'll quit or they'll not answer their phone or they'll take time off.
And then there's other people that will just bite down and deal with it and be uncomfortable but do the work.
That's free will.
That's discipline.
But why can you do it and why can other people not do it?
How much of your personality was instilled upon you because of your genetics, because of your life experiences, because of the environment that you grew up in?
How much of it was the people that you experienced when you were younger that showed you the value and the benefit of hard work?
And how many of the people that you mirrored were lazy and then found excuses?
And maybe you lean towards them.
How much of determinism is true?
How much of free will is true?
It's a balance.
There's a lot of both things.
georges st-pierre
That's right.
You know, in a mechanical world, if a car...
Brokes.
We're not going to say the car decides to break.
joe rogan
Right.
georges st-pierre
Or if trees fall down, we're not going to say the trees decide to break.
Maybe the asymmetry of the tree makes it fall down.
There's a reason why.
But I feel that us as human beings sometimes, our ego, want us to be...
In control of the universe, which is, I do not believe it's the case.
So that's why I tend to, before I met Lex, I was 100% convinced there is no free will.
And, you know, everything is determined by causality.
Now I'm not so sure because we talk about consciousness, what it is, and he had some incredible argument and he made me see a different point of view that I never seen before.
joe rogan
Well, just think about this.
Think about how many people seek out inspiration.
Think about how valuable it is.
Like, Matt Frazier was on my podcast a couple of weeks ago.
He was a five-time CrossFit champion.
And one of the things that he does now, he has this art collection that he's selling on his website.
And it's all these inspirational quotes.
And the idea is to put up this art with all these inspirational quotes and that will give you fuel to get through your workouts or get through difficult things that you want to do in your life.
How many people post inspirational things online?
And then how many people read those things and get excited and it inspires them to action?
There's some real cause and effect.
georges st-pierre
That's right.
joe rogan
Where there's inspiration and then there's action that's motivated by that inspiration.
Whether it's going to The Rock's Instagram and watching him at 5 o'clock in the morning.
unidentified
The Rock here working out in the Church of Iron.
joe rogan
You know, like all the shit that that guy does or all these other...
Cam Haynes or David Goggins.
All these other inspirational people that are online.
Why are they so...
Motivational.
Why do so many people flock to them?
Because there's a reality to the – there's a give and take to these things.
And there's certain things that inspire you to action.
You can externally be motivated by those things.
It's not necessarily 100% determinism.
There is some free will.
georges st-pierre
Well, however, there's, for example, a A quote that can inspire you.
But to me, it doesn't have the same effect because of my background.
It doesn't get me to my core because I cannot rely really much to it.
So it's a little bit of determinism because it's the causality that makes it who I am and who you are that The effect of that quote as on you is different than it has on me.
joe rogan
Or you could both grow up in the same environment.
You could have a brother that's inspired by things that are not even remotely inspirational to you.
But to him, it's everything.
Whether it's music, or whether it's a movie, or a book, or whatever it is.
georges st-pierre
It's true.
In families, very often you have someone who's...
Going the right way and perhaps one of his siblings will go the wrong way.
And we always tend to say, oh, we don't understand because they've been raised the same way, but they did not.
The moment you take one of your kids in your arm and the other one is looking at the kid, it changes everything.
You know what I mean?
joe rogan
Yeah, it does.
georges st-pierre
It's very hard to understand.
But I'm not saying that I'm convinced that there is no free will, but I... I don't know now.
He didn't completely convince me.
He didn't completely make me change my mind.
But he's got his point.
And now, man, I don't know.
joe rogan
I think the real problem is people that are convinced one way or the other.
That's the real problem.
Because it is an open-ended conversation.
I don't think they're really...
I think determinism is a real factor.
But I also think will is a real factor too.
In that there's something about...
The open-ended variability of your decisions and what you decide to do and what you don't decide to do.
There's moments in your life where you go, fuck it, I'm going to go for it.
And when you do go for it, your life changes.
What makes you say, fuck it, I'm going to go for it?
It depends entirely on what happened that day to you.
It depends entirely on how you feel, whether or not you got rest, whether or not you broke up with a girlfriend, or she broke up with you, or you got fired from a job, or you quit a job, or you took on a new path in life.
All those different things play a factor.
But there's also your own personal decision making that's based on your own personality and maybe your own life experiences.
There's so many things involved.
But for sure, we all value discipline.
We all value the ability to take action.
Well, why do we do that?
Because we know it's a variable.
It comes and goes.
It ebbs and flows.
And sometimes it's there and sometimes it's not.
It's like, what is that expression?
There's an old expression.
I don't remember who said it, but that inspiration is like bathing.
It's effective, but you need to do it daily.
And I think there's something to that.
It's like you need to seek out inspiration.
And that's why, again, people like David Goggins are so inspirational because you can go to his page every day and that motherfucker's running 30 miles a day.
georges st-pierre
You know what I mean?
joe rogan
Like there's something to that.
Like you get fuel out of that.
There's people like my friend Cam Haynes.
There's people or The Rock or whoever it is.
They give you fuel.
You see them training hard.
You go, oh, there's fuel in that.
Like I want to go train.
georges st-pierre
They are unbreakable.
They have an unbreakable will and this is very inspirational.
That's right.
joe rogan
So there's two things happening.
There's one, it's like, yeah, you are a lot of who you are because of genetics and because of life experience and because of all the things that have happened to you.
But there's also decisions that you make.
There's lines in the sand where you draw.
There's moments where you say, I'm going to do something different now.
I'm tired of this shit.
Like people that are drunk their whole life and fucked up on drugs and then one day they go, enough.
Enough.
I don't want to do this anymore.
I'm going to change.
And they have inspiration.
And then they go to a 12-step program.
They meet other people that also have inspiration.
And they feed off of each other.
georges st-pierre
I think it's important to face adversity.
It helps if you face it at a very young age because it molds you.
Especially if you're able to overcome it.
Because if you've never faced adversity before, and when you face it for the first time and you're not prepared for it, it can break you.
It can make you fold.
You see that very often in a career of a In mixed martial arts, some of the guys, they've been protected for too long, and then when they face a real challenge, they fall.
Same thing in anything.
And I think guys, perhaps like David Goggins, or when I heard their backstories, because they faced adversity, they had to face an incredible amount of adversity, and they were able to overcome each of it.
And they become stronger because what doesn't kill you make you stronger, right?
joe rogan
Or it fucks you up to the point where you're weaker than you were before.
georges st-pierre
Exactly.
But I think it's a little bit life.
I think it could be like a fight if you gradually face adversity.
joe rogan
Yes.
georges st-pierre
It's like someone who's...
Let's say someone who's very healthy...
Always pay everything for his kids.
His kids are not used to learn the importance of hard work.
You know what I mean?
I think it's very important to teach that to kids.
The importance of hard work, the importance of adversity.
The importance of, you know, not to break them right when they're young and make them lose their confidence, because I believe confidence is everything, right?
If you don't have, you can have all the skills in the world, but if you don't have confidence, it's like someone who has a lot of money in his bank account, but no way of accessing it.
So, by facing adversity and overcoming it, you're building your confidence.
joe rogan
That's why sports are so important for kids.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, man.
And life and same thing in business.
You're going to reach time that you're going to go down.
And sometimes you might go to the down deep.
But if you face adversity before you're used to overcome those obstacles, you'll bounce back from it.
joe rogan
Yes.
georges st-pierre
That's why I like...
I know a lot of people, sometimes they face adversity and they fall.
They can't stand up from it.
And some people, let's help them, let's help them.
But if you help them, you always give them help.
They will rely on that.
They need to learn from themselves.
And sometimes I think there is nothing better than reach the down deep To find out how strong you are to come back from that.
joe rogan
Yeah, well that's a lot of things that people say when they're talking about experiencing drug addiction or alcoholism.
They have to hit rock bottom.
They hit rock bottom and then they realize they don't want to be there anymore and then they build themselves back up.
They experience that adversity and they overcome it.
georges st-pierre
That's right.
joe rogan
It doesn't break them.
georges st-pierre
That's right.
Sometimes it can fold you, it can break you, but it can make you much stronger.
joe rogan
This is a good point of discussion because the way mixed martial arts fighters, particularly in the large organizations, whether it's the UFC or Bellator or what have you, they're developed very differently than boxing.
In boxing, they take a fighter and the goal is to keep that fighter undefeated as long as possible.
Until they can get them a title shot.
And a really good manager and a really good trainer will progressively increase the level of the opponents that they face.
unidentified
That's right.
joe rogan
They'll give you an opponent that's a very good inside fighter, give you an opponent who's got a longer reach and fights very well from the outside, and show you all these various problems that you're going to encounter when you face a world-class opponent.
Whereas in the MMA, you just get fucking thrown into the wolves.
georges st-pierre
Well, your match with someone...
On paper, who has a similar record than you do.
Who has a similar skill set than you do.
So it's pretty much 50-50 on paper.
Not always, but very often.
joe rogan
Very often.
georges st-pierre
I believe the reason why it is like that is because if you look at the UFC, for example, look at UFC, the way they promote the event.
UFC is like the Vaseline of petrol jelly.
People don't say, hey, I watch mixed martial arts.
They say, I watch UFC. So the way they promote it, it's UFC 226, this guy versus this guy on the bottom, but they promote the UFC. They don't promote the fighter.
They promote mostly the brand.
And it's very smart because they have the monopoly over the others, right?
joe rogan
Right.
georges st-pierre
Which in boxing, they build up their fighter because the money is on the fighter.
It's not on the IBF title or...
Yes, it's IBF title, but it's...
joe rogan
People don't care.
georges st-pierre
Canelo versus Mayweather.
unidentified
Right.
georges st-pierre
And then on the bottom, you know for what they're fighting for.
unidentified
Right.
georges st-pierre
Which in UFC is the opposite.
joe rogan
Yeah.
georges st-pierre
So that's the main difference and that's why it's like that.
Which is not a bad thing for their business because they're there to make money, right?
It's a smart move.
But for the fighters, I mean, if you're on the winning hand, it's a good thing to be promoted.
But if you're in the losing hand, I mean...
Get another job.
joe rogan
It's unusual where a guy like Jon Jones rises through the ranks where he's 22 years old, he fights for the title and wins.
That's very unusual.
Very unusual.
A lot of times when guys are very young and they get thrown to the wolves like that, they don't...
Jon is an extraordinary talent.
He's very unusual.
georges st-pierre
One of a kind.
joe rogan
One of a kind.
Literally one of a kind, because he's the only guy other than Khabib Nurmagomedov that's fought his entire career and been undefeated.
John has one loss, but it's a bullshit loss.
It was a disqualification, a fight that he totally dominated against Matt Hamill.
Yeah, for throwing the downward elbows, which is a ridiculous rule.
Don't you think that's the most ridiculous rule out of all the rules?
The 12-6 elbow.
georges st-pierre
Joe, if it would be up to me, I mean, I would allow almost anything and I would not even make rounds.
I think rounds are stupid.
You want to see who's the best man?
Let them fight, man.
joe rogan
What about eye pokes?
georges st-pierre
No, no eye poke.
The problem is the gloves.
Trevor Whitman came out with gloves, you know, because the UFC glove, when you put it on, it makes your hand open like this.
And for example, there's gloves like Trevor Whitman made.
The gloves naturally makes your hand fold.
And that's one of the solutions to the problem.
joe rogan
They're better protecting your hands, too.
georges st-pierre
A hundred percent.
joe rogan
Trevor's gloves are the best.
They're so superior.
georges st-pierre
I remember everyone, like John McCarty, used to fold the glove and wrap it to make sure it...
But it's still not enough because when you put it on, it makes your hand open.
joe rogan
Yeah.
georges st-pierre
So that's the problem with the eye poke.
And I believe...
No, I would not allow eye poke, of course, but I would, you know, no rounds.
joe rogan
What about groin shots?
georges st-pierre
No, maybe not my shot.
I mean, I would keep it in the realm of sport, you know?
But yeah, man, if you want to see who's the best man, let them fight.
Because you see very often that a fight is interrupted by a round.
The momentum shifts like 180 degrees completely.
joe rogan
Yes.
georges st-pierre
And it's not fair.
It's a fight.
Let them fight.
joe rogan
I agree.
I also think that stand-ups are bullshit.
I get mad and people go, no, no, no.
Fighters get mad at me.
They're like, you don't know what you're talking about.
The stand-ups are important.
Otherwise, people will stall.
I go, well, do something about it.
Someone's holding you down.
They're holding you down.
You gotta figure out a way to get up.
Like, that's a part of the sport.
Like, baseball, right?
Baseball's boring as fuck, to me.
georges st-pierre
But, yeah, it's a subjective argument, yeah.
joe rogan
You wait for this one moment where someone hits a ball really far.
And it takes so long for those moments!
Whereas a fight, if a guy can hold a guy down for three minutes, you're telling me you can't...
We can't watch three minutes where a guy tries to figure it out.
We're so starved for entertainment.
Our attention span is so short that we can't allow...
That's part of the fight.
And everyone knows that if you roll with a wrestler.
If you roll with a wrestler, they fucking squash you.
And you're like, shit, I gotta figure out a way to get out from underneath this guy.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, but John...
Joe, we're in the entertainment business.
joe rogan
Yes, I understand.
georges st-pierre
Actor, comedian, athletes, singers.
It's an entertainment business.
People pay to be entertained.
We forgot that sometimes.
Yeah, but it's also just purity.
It's not only about who's the best man.
I mean, that's because us, we're martial artists.
That's the pure...
The purity of our sport, the truth about it for us is to see who's the best man.
But for an entertainment standpoint, the money isn't there.
The money isn't the entertainment.
joe rogan
Right, but isn't the incentive in the fighter?
Like, look, a guy like Khabib Nurmagomedov, who's the greatest lightweight champion of all time, you can't hold him down!
You can't do it.
No one's held him down.
You say that about him.
Well, no one's ever fucking held him down.
He's never held anybody down.
When he holds you down, he's beating the shit out of you.
There's a lot of action involved in that guy holding you down.
No one's holding Jon Jones down.
Hold Jon Jones down.
Good luck.
Well, it's because they're good enough where that doesn't apply to them.
So if someone's getting held down, isn't the issue that the fighter who's on the bottom doesn't have the ability to get back up?
georges st-pierre
That's right.
But most people don't understand that.
And I understand that completely.
I'm on your side 100%.
And the proof of that is even when I fought at my total reign, I was blamed to be kind of boring because I was not taking enough risk.
But why would I take a risk if I'm winning the fight?
Why would I take a stupid risk?
And let an opportunity to my opponent to give me a fatal blow to knock me out.
It's up to him to take the risk.
If you're a martial artist, you understand that.
But if you're watching a fight to be entertained, you do not understand that.
And because we live in an entertained world, that's what it is.
joe rogan
That's just people looking for a reason to criticize you because you were so dominant, though.
They're trying to find some reason why something you're doing is wrong.
georges st-pierre
It's okay.
I live with it.
But the critics were real.
The good news about it for me is I could be brain damaged, but so far I think I'm good.
joe rogan
You did great!
Are you kidding me, man?
As many fights as you had?
To be able to talk the way you talk?
We all know fighters that can't.
We all know boxers in particular.
They get to a certain age and it's unbelievable.
You listen to them talk.
It's so sad.
georges st-pierre
It's not a guarantee that I will not have problems in the future.
I mean, so far, so good.
Touch wood.
And I don't think I got any issues.
But I saw many doctors because for me, my health is the most important thing.
And they say that there is never a doctor that will tell you, oh, it's good that if you go back to fight...
It's just that it's always a risk.
And there is sometimes we don't have the technology nowadays sometimes to see if potentially you'll have problems in the future, right?
joe rogan
Well, my hope is that the technology, medical technology, will improve to the point where we can regenerate neurons and help people that have CTE. That's my real hope.
And there is some light on the horizon when it comes to that.
There are some therapies that are available now that were not available just 5-10 years ago.
georges st-pierre
Yeah.
It's sad.
I see a lot of guys, they hang on way too long in the sport.
I mean, everybody keeps fighting for different reasons.
I fought myself, not because I like to fight for the legacy, because I like to win, I guess, better than I hate to lose.
So that's why I came back.
But some guys, they keep fighting.
They always ask me, they say, what do you think about this guy still fighting?
And I'm like...
If it were me, I would have retired a long time ago because you have a prime window.
And when you pass your prime, what's the point?
You know, you're hurting your legacy.
But if you do it because you love to fight or you do it because you need the money, that's okay.
That's your choice, you know?
But I think it's a very, very sad thing.
And also, another thing, very often I got...
I got parents coming with their kids, coming to me and telling me, hey, this is the...
The future world champion, you know, which advice would you tell him?
And I always tell them the same thing.
I disappoint them all, always, almost all of them.
joe rogan
Don't do it.
georges st-pierre
Now I said to them, I say, how's school doing?
They're like, oh, I don't really like it.
I said, stay at school, be good.
Keep training, it's good for you.
You know, it's good for you, but don't put your eggs in the same basket, kid.
You know, like, keep training.
And the parent always look at me like this, like, and I'm like, it's not because I made it that I'm gonna...
Try to convince your kid to choose the same path.
It's a very hard journey.
joe rogan
Especially when you're dealing with a kid.
You don't know how that kid's going to grow.
Some kids grow up to be terrible athletes through no fault of their own.
They're slow.
They can't hit hard.
They don't get hit well.
They have a bad chin.
There's certain aspects that you can't control when it comes to an athlete.
georges st-pierre
And Joe, I'm not talking only about MMA. I'm talking about basketball, hockey, baseball.
Same thing.
joe rogan
Yes.
georges st-pierre
It's the same thing.
joe rogan
But more consequences with fighting than any of the other ones.
georges st-pierre
Yeah.
Hockey.
joe rogan
Football.
georges st-pierre
Hockey, football, American football.
Soccer too is bad.
I talked to Dr. Kent who told me a lot of soccer players because they...
joe rogan
Yeah, they had the ball.
georges st-pierre
Yeah!
And it's very sad.
joe rogan
They're crazy getting CTE from bouncing the ball off their head.
No one would have ever expected that.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
That's why there's a real problem with people.
They conflate concussions with CTE, but it's not necessarily.
It's any kind of impact to the head.
You know what my doctor, Dr. Mark Gordon, told me?
People get CTE from riding jet skis.
georges st-pierre
Wow.
joe rogan
Just riding jet skis and bouncing off of waves.
He said it rattles your brain inside your head.
georges st-pierre
And people have cognitive problems, memory problems, and it turns out they're experiencing CTE. Dr. Kent in Boston told me that if you know any kids, if you have any kids, don't ever let him get hit on the head.
Or if you play soccer, never hit the ball with your head.
Football, no contact.
Because before puberty, He clearly made me understand that the damage is way worse.
And you know, see some parents, sometimes they grab their kids like this and they shake them.
This is like terrible, terrible.
So it's a very hard path.
And you know, one of the happiest places for me to go and the saddest place to go, it's the gym.
When I go train to the gym.
It's the happiest place for me to go because I can practice the sport that I love, because I love training, you know, I love the science of fighting.
And it's very sad, too, because after training, there's always some guys that come to me because they seek some advice.
And I always give them advice regarding fighting.
A lot of them, my advice for them would be, hey bro, you should hang up your gloves and find a real job.
Because I've seen this movie and it's not a good ending, my friend.
But if I tell them the truth...
joe rogan
They'll get mad at you.
georges st-pierre
They'll get mad at me because I'll be like, oh yeah, you know what I mean?
joe rogan
You're jealous.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, he's jealous.
He's arrogant and stuff.
But that's the thing.
I tell my real friends that when it's time to hang up their gloves, I tell them the truth.
I say, listen.
And I said to them, like I said, listen man, what's good for you now?
You know, it's a little bit like in...
The movie with Bruce Willis, Quentin Tarantino.
joe rogan
Oh, Pulp Fiction.
georges st-pierre
Pulp Fiction.
If you would have made it, you would have made it before.
When he made that speech, it's a little bit the same thing.
I love that monologue.
It's amazing.
But it's the truth.
A lot of people should rely to this, but it's unfortunate.
joe rogan
Well, the reason why champions are so exceptional is because it's so hard to become a champion.
It's so rare.
All the stars have to align.
You have to have mental prowess, physical prowess.
You have to have great coaching.
You have to have...
So many different factors have to come together.
And also fortune.
I mean, your guy has been through some surgeries.
And we all know guys who...
They get injured and they can never even train again.
It happens.
It's unusual, but it can happen.
And we were dealing with this...
This giant hurricane of possibilities for someone to come out of that and be a George St-Pierre or be a Khabib Nurmagomedov or a Jon Jones or someone who's exceptional.
It's so rare.
So when someone's kid comes up to you and says, I'm going to be the next world champion, you're like...
georges st-pierre
The possibility, the odds of failure are so high.
joe rogan
They're so high.
georges st-pierre
That's the thing.
I believe you need to have a certain predisposition.
joe rogan
Yeah.
georges st-pierre
I met in my life incredible mentors that had a huge influence on me.
They taught me great life lessons, techniques, and it's incredible.
If I would not have had that...
Those guys who influenced me, I would never have been where I am right now.
And plus, on top of that, you know, I worked really hard and I was lucky.
You know, like the stars were all aligned.
But you need all that, you know?
joe rogan
The great coaching is so important, too.
There's so many guys that are really talented, but they have meathead coaches.
And the coaches train them the wrong way so they spar full blast in the gym and then they go out and they lose and then their coach has them sparring a couple weeks after they get knocked out and that kind of shit.
And they don't have the technical prowess, the technical proficiency to teach a child or a kid or an athlete right.
You can get unlucky, you know?
georges st-pierre
I believe the best way to improve is when it's playful.
I've seen so many guys, Joe, I can't say names, but it's crazy how many guys I've seen that left their career in the gyms.
joe rogan
Yeah.
georges st-pierre
Because they spar too hard.
Every sparring for them, it's about winning the rounds.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Life or death.
georges st-pierre
You cannot improve like this.
You need to be playful.
Of course, when you're in training camp and your fight is coming up, you need to somehow try to recreate that environment of discomfort, that stress.
But when you're outside of that preparation zone, you need to be playful.
And that's when you improve, when it's playful, when it's like a game.
Because you will be more prone to trying new things.
And by trying new things, you'll adapt.
You'll be like, oh, this one works, this one doesn't work.
But the one that works, I keep it in my back pocket.
And it makes you grow.
That's a problem.
I've seen...
Very often I see guys sparring, they lose a lot of brain cells.
It's terrible.
It's terrible.
And I'm a former world champion.
When I spar with guys, very often they're nervous, so they become all stiff.
And when they hit, they hit so hard.
I tell them, I'm like...
You don't get ready.
You don't have any fight coming up soon.
Just have fun.
Relax.
I tell them, relax.
And very often, they relax.
Some will try to make...
So I have to answer back.
I have to.
But very often, they relax.
And they're surprised.
Because it's so much of an egotistic...
We have this mentality that if the guy tells you to relax, it's because he's scared.
It's so stupid.
If you want to improve, it needs to be playful.
In everything.
When I say sparring, When I'm about to spar with someone I never sparred before, that's what I do.
I tell them, I say, would you like to play a little bit?
I don't use the word sparring.
Because sparring is like aggression.
I tell them, I say, would you like to play a little bit there?
Then we touch glove and we play.
And I never go hard.
I always start very...
Very slow.
And if I see that he's going to our...
I tell him, I say, please, go more easy.
And of course, if he's getting ready for a fight, it's different.
It's a different situation.
But, you know, that's how it is, you know?
And you need...
You shouldn't be afraid to tell your training partner, hey, please, like, put it...
Like, slow down a notch, you know?
Like...
When you see guys trying to throw a head kick to knock each other out, you know?
In boxing, sparring, it's different because we have big gloves, big headgear, you know?
They can go hard.
I mean, even if it's not good because it's repeatedly blows...
Repetition with the blows to the head, but...
In MMA, with the kicks, the damage is basically like a baseball bat hitting your head.
You can't do that.
It's crazy, man.
joe rogan
The ties have it right, right?
georges st-pierre
That's right.
That's right, because they have so many fights.
They have so many fights that...
And also, when you fight someone...
When I fight someone, it happens very often in my career.
Like, when I fight someone...
You have a connection with the guy you fight.
A lot of things happen here.
And real fighters will know that when I'm talking about the connection that we have because you look at each other and this connection you cannot see it when you watch a fight on TV. But very often in most of my fight When I went to decision, I could see the guy breaking, folding.
Like, he's letting me know that he doesn't fight to win anymore.
He's fighting to not lose.
And like I said earlier, it's not up to me trying to...
Trying to push the pace, trying to finish him and increasing my risk of getting caught by a counter punch and getting knocked out.
You know, it's up to him to take the risk, you know, because he's losing the fight.
And the idea in this game, you want to save yourself for another day.
I mean, it's sad to say for the fan, but this is the truth.
If you win and that's what you're doing is good, you win...
You're winning the fight, you know?
You're gonna get paid the same amount of money.
Of course, if you have like an highlight reel, something like that, it could increase your pay.
But in terms of your career, I believe you should see your career as a marathon, not as a sprint.
So you kind of save yourself.
And a lot of time I fought guys, I could see in their face that, oh, he doesn't want to be there anymore.
Like, I know I'm winning the fight before even the fight is over.
They get desperate.
Of course, they're going to throw a haymaker or something, but I know they're not going to take any risk because they're hurt.
They lost already.
They know that I'm better than them.
And that's when I know I get the fight.
And I know that I just need to be on cruise control.
I can win if they don't...
Like, it's hard to finish someone who doesn't fight to win anymore.
joe rogan
Right.
georges st-pierre
You see very often champions...
In MMA, I have a very dominant career in the beginning.
You know, they finish a lot of their opponent.
But after a while, it kind of peaked because the entire UFC roster is studying you and they figure you out.
Maybe they didn't figure out how to beat you, but they figure out how to kind of survive and hang in there with you.
joe rogan
John Jones is a good example of that, right?
georges st-pierre
Everybody, myself, same thing.
Like a lot of guys, Anderson Silva, all the champions.
That's what happened.
joe rogan
Everyone's studying you.
georges st-pierre
Yes, it's hard to become champion.
That's why I told Francis and Gano, I said, man, it's hard to become champion now.
Now the entire roster...
joe rogan
He's a different animal.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, but...
joe rogan
It's so hard.
georges st-pierre
Oh, man, he's a scary human being.
It's unbelievable.
joe rogan
Pull the microphone in front of your face a little bit more there.
georges st-pierre
Like this.
joe rogan
Yeah, he's the scariest.
Isn't he the scariest heavyweight of all time?
georges st-pierre
Yeah, man, I think so.
joe rogan
No one's scarier.
A natural 265 pounds and knocks everyone out.
georges st-pierre
It's true.
There's guys that were very scary in the beginning, but then after, when some other guys figured out how to beat them, they're like, oh, okay, they're not so scary anymore.
joe rogan
But even guys that are really scary, like Anderson Silva, it's usually multiple punches that he would knock you out with.
With Francis, you can't make any mistakes.
Every punch is a hydrogen bomb.
georges st-pierre
You don't need to be a champion to be a scary fighter.
Just think about...
Like Melvin Manoev, for example.
He was an incredible, scary fighter.
Because he can knock everybody out, but he can get beat by everybody.
joe rogan
Rumble Johnson.
georges st-pierre
That's right.
joe rogan
Rumble Johnson, another example.
georges st-pierre
Scary guy.
joe rogan
One of the scariest of all time.
georges st-pierre
That's right.
joe rogan
Knocked out Glover Teixeira with one punch.
Remember that?
georges st-pierre
To me, Khabib is one of the scariest, too.
joe rogan
Oh, yeah.
georges st-pierre
Because he's beating you down.
He's not only beating you down, he's breaking you mentally.
And for me, that is worse than anything.
For me, he's the scariest one, pound for pound.
joe rogan
Is he the guy that you would come back for?
georges st-pierre
I would have.
You would have?
No, it's all over now.
joe rogan
You're done?
That's it?
georges st-pierre
I'm done.
It's three years ago.
joe rogan
Hey, GSP, it's Dana White.
Listen, I got to fight for you.
georges st-pierre
Now, I'm going to explain to you.
If he wants me to fight, he needs to do it.
That's how he needs to do it.
He needs to hide himself, wait that I'm in a gym training.
Like, for example, when I was in LA with Freddie Roach hitting the pads and getting back because I haven't done this before.
It's because COVID, everything is closed in Montreal.
unidentified
Right.
georges st-pierre
But I went back and now I found my mechanic back, man.
And when you hit, when you train in mixed martial arts and combat sport, you become a different person, you know?
And ta-ta-ta-ta-ta!
And Freddie, look at me.
He's like, George...
You get the hitch back.
I'm like, ah, stop saying that!
And if Dana White would walk in right now in the gym in between rounds, I would sign the contract in a blink of an eye.
But then after I go back home, go back in Montreal in my comfort, and I'm like...
Hell no!
joe rogan
There you are, working with Freddie.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, and people are like, hey, are you practicing left-handed?
I've always been both sides.
joe rogan
Switch hitter, yeah.
I like how Freddie has a fucking...
He's got a mask on his chin.
What's that protection, Freddie?
Take that stupid goddamn thing off.
georges st-pierre
And you know, I'm left-handed because I've always been left-handed.
It was a card, a secret card that I kept.
In my arsenal that if I would have needed to use it.
joe rogan
You switch?
georges st-pierre
Yes, I was going to switch perhaps with Bisping in the fourth round.
joe rogan
Oh really?
georges st-pierre
Yes.
joe rogan
So you're more comfortable left-handed?
georges st-pierre
No.
joe rogan
You're more comfortable in the southpaw?
georges st-pierre
No, I would say I've started more comfortable as a regular stand.
But because I do karate, I always...
If you ask my coaches, everybody knows.
But I always fight one side because I believe it's a secret card that you can pull off and surprise everybody.
But you don't show your hand when you play a card.
You only show what you need to show to win the fight.
joe rogan
Well, you see that with Wonderboy.
Like, Wonderboy, he's right-handed, but he fights, in my opinion, at his best when he's right-leg forward because he throws front-leg kicks.
georges st-pierre
Yes.
joe rogan
That's one of the things he does.
He'll switch back and forth fluidly.
Don't get me wrong.
He can fight well from both stances.
But when he's right leg forward, you see a lot of those front leg kicks.
And that's some of the most difficult shit to get through with that guy.
georges st-pierre
Yeah.
There's guys that has a lot of problems fighting a southpaw.
There's guys like...
joe rogan
It switches everything.
unidentified
Yes!
georges st-pierre
It can change everything.
So that's why it was for me a secret car that I kept in case I would need it.
But unfortunately for me, Bisping was very good with Southport as well.
He knocked out Ruluk Rockhold.
Perhaps it's one of these things that I should have used earlier in my career, unfortunately.
And I did not.
joe rogan
Unfortunately, you're one of the greatest of all time.
How about relax?
georges st-pierre
I'm very critic about myself, Joe.
It always can be better, right?
joe rogan
But that's always one of the reasons why champions are champions, is that they are self-critical.
If you just think everything you do is amazing and you don't have any room for improvement...
I think some of the reason why champions become champions is this terrible discomfort of analyzing themselves and not liking certain aspects of what they're doing and finding flaws in their technique or watching a tape.
Ah, I shouldn't have got hit with that.
Why is that?
You get crazy and angry and then you train harder.
The people that are self-satisfied, they're really easily satisfied with their work, they never reach the level of champion because they don't feel that horrible discomfort.
When you're looking at yourself and you don't like what you see.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, and my friend C.T. Fletcher says that.
joe rogan
Shout out to C.T. I love that dude.
georges st-pierre
He's the man.
joe rogan
Iron addicts for life.
georges st-pierre
Big inspiration for me, C.T. I love him.
And he says to me, the day that you're satisfied, choose to do something else.
joe rogan
Yeah.
georges st-pierre
And it's a little bit what happened to me in fighting.
I made peace with it.
I... I wanted to come back for Khabib because it was...
For a fighter, the scariest thing sometimes is the most exciting thing to do, and it's a problem that's never been solved before.
But to come back for another guy and fight for another title, if I win, it's going to be another one after, and another one, and another one.
And I'm going to turn 40 years old.
I hate to admit it, Joe, and I refuse to accept it, but...
Man, sometimes I think my best years might be behind me.
joe rogan
But listen, you're retired.
It's okay.
georges st-pierre
No, it's not okay.
I'm not done.
joe rogan
Dana, you're hearing him right now.
georges st-pierre
Show up with a check.
joe rogan
Let's make it happen.
But Khabib is done as well.
And Khabib is, what is he, 32?
I think Khabib is 32 or 33. That's right.
So he's in his athletic prime.
How old is Khabib?
Find out how old Khabib is.
unidentified
I believe he's either 32 or 33. Yeah, but it's different for everybody.
georges st-pierre
Some people reach their prime at 25. Some people at 22. Some people at 35. Look at Bojovic.
He's incredible.
joe rogan
He's 38 years old and he's dominating the light heavyweight division.
I think for Khabib, it was also a promise that he made to his mother.
And I think that's where it lies.
When his father died, he told his mother, this is going to be the last fight.
And then he fought Justin Gaethje.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
And he said, that's it.
georges st-pierre
And I understand why.
Because fighting takes a lot out of you and takes a lot out of the people who loves you.
joe rogan
Yeah.
georges st-pierre
Because you play basketball, you play baseball, you don't play fighting.
And the outcome of a failure, it could be very, very bad.
You know what I mean?
It's not like you lose a game of basketball or something like that.
You lose a fight, it can have huge repercussions on your health, your well-being, but also your income and your family and everything.
joe rogan
Sure, like Stipe's loss to Ngannou.
When you watch that loss, that's a horrible price that he paid.
When he got knocked out, and you see him out cold, and Francis hits him with that hammer fist after all, he KO'd him with the left hook.
That's a horrible place to be.
If that's your child, you think of Khabib's mother looking at him, and if that's your child, that's a terrible thing to watch.
georges st-pierre
That's right.
But I think psychologically for a fighter, it's hard to come back from a knockout.
But it's probably harder to come back from a fight where you've been dominated and broken for five rounds, like where you clearly know that you did not belong there with the team.
Khabib, that's his style.
That's why I'm saying he's the scariest guy.
He can knock you out, submit you, but if he wins the fight, it's very less likely that it's going to be on a punch that clips you.
It can happen, but it's going to be on a very dominant performance.
joe rogan
He's going to maul you.
georges st-pierre
Exactly.
joe rogan
Yeah, my favorite fight of his, I think, is the Edson Barboza fight.
Because there's a moment, and Barboza at the time was so scary.
He has, in my opinion, the fastest switch kick I've ever seen in my life.
I've never seen anybody throw that left front lead kick as fast as Barboza.
It's just like...
It's so fast.
It's incredible.
georges st-pierre
Like a slingshot.
joe rogan
His kicking is some of the best I've ever seen in all of my life.
But Khabib just got a hold of him and mauled him.
And there was a moment in the first round where you see Barboza looking up.
He's just getting smothered on the ground.
georges st-pierre
He knows he's done.
joe rogan
He knows he can't fuck with this guy.
He can't keep him off of him.
When you know you're always going to be second place, you're never going to beat the champion, and then you have to continue fighting.
There's that moment where you see a fighter who was a promising prospect early in his career, and then somewhere along the line, he accepts the fact that he's a journeyman.
And then you see his body change.
He starts looking like a little softer.
georges st-pierre
His will change as well.
joe rogan
He doesn't train as hard.
He fights to put up a good fight, but he doesn't fight to be the best in the world.
And I always tell guys, if you're not trying to be the best in the world, you should probably get out.
You can enjoy it.
Don't listen to me.
Do whatever you like.
If you enjoy just competing, if you're happy being someone who just competes and you're just trying to do your best every time, there's nothing wrong with that.
georges st-pierre
That's right.
joe rogan
But in my opinion, if you started out to be the best in the world and then somewhere along the line you changed and you don't want to be the best in the world anymore, you just want to compete, just get out.
georges st-pierre
Yes.
joe rogan
Just get out.
georges st-pierre
Because we've all seen the end of that movie.
joe rogan
We've all seen the end of that movie.
georges st-pierre
It's a bad ending.
People only see the one who made it, the Conor McGregor, the one that makes the big bucks.
But it's a very sad movie.
It's a very sad truth in the world of fighting.
You go to the Hall of Fame of boxing, sometimes you see things like that.
You're like, wow, it's unbelievable.
Like, you wish you didn't see.
joe rogan
You know what I mean?
georges st-pierre
It's very sad, you know?
And you need to compete only when you're in...
I believe if you want to maintain your well-being and your health...
Do it for yourself, but do it also for your family if you don't do it for yourself.
Compete while you're in that window.
Get your chip, get out of here.
joe rogan
I think it's really great that you still enjoy martial arts even after you're done fighting.
You still love to train and improve.
We were talking about how the fact that you just trained with Freddie Roach, and before this we were talking about how you're going to go to Puerto Rico and train with the Donna Hurt Death Squad.
You're going to go down and train with those guys.
You're literally going to go to a fucking island to go do Jiu Jitsu.
georges st-pierre
I like the confidence that martial arts give me because I started when I was very young and it saved my life because I started when I was bullied in school and it became an habit and if I don't do it, I'm not happy and I don't feel confident.
I remember when I was a kid, I was looking at myself in the mirror and I didn't like myself.
I didn't like what I saw in myself because I wanted to change my environment.
Martial art taught me that if you want to change your environment, you want to change yourself, you need to love yourself first.
And I learned how to love myself.
I didn't love right away in the beginning who I was, but I loved who I could become.
And I wanted to become that person that I visualized, the idea George St. Pierre that I could become.
That's when I started training.
And that's when I started looking at people in the eyes instead of looking down.
And when I shake someone's hand, I have firm grip.
And when the teacher was asking a question before, I was always like this, always the last to answer.
Now I was taking charge.
Hey, I know the answer.
Five plus five, it's ten, for example.
Yeah.
I exteriorize myself.
I got out of my comfort zone.
And it start building up my confidence.
And you know, like in life, the bully, it's like a predatory animal.
It will never hunt the strong alpha male.
It will go for the weak.
And it's the same thing.
So I wish I could tell you I get out of my bullying Because I kick all their ass, because I've learned karate.
But that's not how it happened.
It happened because I gained confidence.
And by gaining confidence, I became someone different.
I became a different person.
And that's why I like to go to Puerto Rico to train.
Because if I don't have martial art, if I walk to a place, Perhaps it's the remnants of what happened in the past for me.
I will not feel confidence.
Maybe it left a scar in my mind.
I'm not a psychologist, but perhaps that's what a psychologist will tell me.
It left a big scar.
joe rogan
But I think that scar is a gift.
georges st-pierre
It could be.
joe rogan
I think it is with you, because I think that scar forces you to continue to grow and learn.
And even though your competitive career as a professional and as a champion may or may not be done, depending on whether or not Dana White shows up for a check.
unidentified
You need to show up with a good check and at the right time.
georges st-pierre
So the money and the timing, Dana, very important.
joe rogan
Very important.
Show up at Wild Card Gym while you see him in the Southpaw's dance.
But even if that doesn't happen, what's important is that that gift makes you constantly look to improve yourself.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Because you know the benefits of that.
Even though, like, you would think, like, people listening to this go, wait, wait, wait, wait.
George St. Pierre is a confidence thing?
Like, you're the fucking, one of the greatest of all time!
If you have, like, a list of, like, the Mount Rushmore of great martial artists, you're on that Mount Rushmore, man.
But still, you're honest.
And you're honest about your feelings on these things.
And I think it's a very important thing for people to hear because there's a real great benefit for anybody in challenging yourself.
It's a great benefit.
And it doesn't mean that you have to be a world champion.
As a martial artist, comparing yourself to who you used to be is what's important.
Who were you last week and who are you now?
Are you growing?
Are you getting better?
Are you learning new skills?
Because if you're not, you're doing it wrong.
You're supposed to be challenging yourself.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's the biggest benefit for me.
It helped me love myself.
I like to be fit.
I like to be in good health.
That's what martial arts taught me.
It's something that changed my life.
That's one of the benefits.
Of course, if you look at Competition in mixed martial arts, sometimes it has a very violent ending.
But what it can bring to an individual, it's so much more positive than what you see sometimes on TV. And I think it would benefit the bullies too.
joe rogan
I've always said, like, people say, like, what's the best way to stop bullying?
Well, teach everybody how to fight.
Because a lot of the reasons why the bullies do it, because they're looking for some sort of external validation.
They're looking to dominate people to make themselves feel better.
But if they could just learn martial arts, the people that we know that are good at martial arts are some of the nicest people in the world.
Like, jujitsu people in particular.
They're so nice.
Most people that I know that are just fucking stone-cold killers.
They're so friendly.
They're so nice.
georges st-pierre
You know, I grew up in Canada and I feel very lucky to grow up in Canada.
But it's not sometimes because you grow up in a nice place that nice things happen.
You know what I mean?
Everybody can face different adversity.
And I think it's important to love yourself, to accept yourself as a person in order to change your surrounding.
And it's very important in life and everything.
You know, like if you want to...
If you want to do good, you have to look at yourself in the mirror and accept who you are and try to be who you want to become.
You said it once, I believe you said, you know, We talk about loving yourself.
Sometimes you love yourself a lot.
Sometimes you don't, right?
Because we all do things that we regret.
Sometimes nobody's perfect.
Sometimes I look at myself in the mirror and I'm like, man, I just did something very stupid.
I don't really love myself.
Sometimes I love myself a lot.
But you said it like you're not the person who you were in the past.
You're the person who you are now.
And I remember I've learned that from you.
And it was a great quote that inspired me.
And it's the truth.
Because we all learn.
You know, sometimes we talk about someone, oh, I don't want it.
But that person is not the same that you met in the past.
He perhaps is different.
Perhaps he's better or maybe he's worse.
joe rogan
Maybe he's worse.
georges st-pierre
That's right.
joe rogan
Yeah, you have to internalize that.
Just because you've made mistakes, you are not the person who you were when you were at your lowest mistake.
You have to realize those mistakes, although they're very painful, they're very valuable.
Because they teach you how you want to never be again.
If you don't experience yourself at a low point, you don't know how bad it is.
You have to experience those bad moments to know, like, oh, I'm capable of complete, total failure.
georges st-pierre
That's right.
joe rogan
Now I have to never allow myself to get to that place again.
And for many fighters, there's fighters where they quit in a fight, and then they always quit.
But some fighters quit and they're like, I'll never fucking quit again.
And they grow stronger because of that.
So sometimes people say, well once a quitter, always a quitter.
I say bullshit.
georges st-pierre
That's right.
joe rogan
Because some guys have quit and because of that they're more dangerous than ever.
Because they had to go home and live with themselves because of that quitting.
And they fucking hate it.
So they train harder than ever and they're terrified of that weakness.
So they're a horrifying fighter to face because they've faced the worst possible feeling you can face.
Sometimes the worst feeling you can face as a fighter is not loss, but failing yourself, knowing that you could have done more, but quitting.
georges st-pierre
Joe, I'm happy I'm in Vegas because last time I'm in...
You talk about quitting.
Last time I came in Vegas...
Not in Vegas, I mean in Houston.
Last time I came in Houston...
I had a very bad memory of Houston.
joe rogan
Matt Serra.
unidentified
That's when I got knocked out by Matt Serra.
joe rogan
Tell me about that fight.
georges st-pierre
Houston was a nightmare for me.
And now I have a chance to redeem myself.
And I really loved Houston.
Houston people are like, everybody's been so nice to me.
The food is fantastic.
But when I fought Matt Serra, you talk about quitting.
I was blamed.
Because everybody saw me at the time like the best new thing.
And I was fighting a guy that the odds were incredibly in my favor.
I don't remember.
I think it was 11 to 1. And when I lost, I got punched by a looping punch that I never saw coming.
And I got dizzy and I made the mistake to try to get back into the fight right away.
And boom, boom, boom, I end up on my back and...
I knew that it was finished for me because I didn't know where I was.
So I turn on the side and I tap on strike.
And then a lot of people say, oh, he tapped on strike.
He's a quitter.
But people, sometimes they should understand, they should know when they're done.
Why would I take unnecessary damage and be unconscious?
I was able to save myself perhaps for another day.
And those extra punches that perhaps I would have taken and knocked me out cold, Would have made it in a way that I would have perhaps because the brain damage never have to be able to come back and have the greatest run that I had after.
So when you say you quit, it's true.
It's not because you quit that it doesn't make you better.
Some people say he's a quitter, but you quit perhaps to save yourself.
Maybe there's a reason.
But the experience that I went through, it was the most humiliating moment of my career.
I wouldn't say to my life because I had worse thing in the past.
But in my career, it was no doubt the most humiliating moment.
And it was a nightmare for me.
It became an obsession.
It was always in the back of my head and I never wanted this thing to ever happen again.
And then, I remember during the fight of Carlos Condit, I got kicked in the head and I got dropped on my butt like this.
And that...
Scenarios that happen with Matt Serra is playing in my mind.
Sometimes in the fight, the time stops.
And it's like in Rocky, you know, like you see, it goes slow motion and you have time to think about stuff that seems to take more times.
So I'm in my butt and I see Carlos Condit coming to me and I'm like, I've seen this before.
And I know now that if I try to stand up right away to get back in the fight because of my ego to show him that I'm not hurt and show the people that I'm not hurt, I might get knocked out.
So I step on my ego, I lean back, I use the guard, the shield to parry the punches and I'm able to survive it because now I know that It's the loss of Matt Serra and the experience that I gained from it that made me survive that kick to the head that Carlos Condit gave me.
joe rogan
Isn't that interesting how that bad moment was so valuable?
That kind of experience is so valuable.
georges st-pierre
There's very often in life negative experience that you don't understand At the time, because you go through a depressive moment.
But later on in your life, you'll be like, man, that thing's helped me.
Like when I was bullied in school, I was always complaining about myself.
It was a very negative experience for me.
But now I know that it helped me to deal with the mental warfare that I have to deal with in my career in mixed martial arts.
Because in mixed martial arts, it's a lot of mind games.
I was able to put a shield on myself because of the experience I had in bullying.
You could say whatever you want to me.
It would never affect me.
And of course, the UFC, the way they promote the fight, they would say, oh, I've never seen George St-Pierre like this.
He's mad.
He's mad.
But that was bullshit.
joe rogan
That was just promoted to fight.
georges st-pierre
Exactly.
Because the fight are promoted on emotions.
But the fight are not won on emotions or won on mundane things that you do every day.
joe rogan
But there are moments in your career that I remember you being very angry.
One of them was a BJ Penn fight.
You almost stopped BJ Penn, the round ended, and you jumped up and punched the cage.
georges st-pierre
Yes.
joe rogan
Remember that?
georges st-pierre
Yes.
joe rogan
You were still mad.
georges st-pierre
You need to canalize your emotion when you fight.
You need to be stoic.
No emotion.
But there's times that it's time to use your emotion.
But to use it to propel you.
To use it to motivate you to be able, for example, to finish the round with more energy.
Even though you're physically exhausted, you use those emotions to push yourself.
But the emotion is a little bit like a fire.
It can help you cook your food, but it can burn you.
It's like fear.
It's like fear.
If you have a huge ego, like I have an incredible ego.
I'm very, very proud.
I'm a very proud person, which helped me be a better fighter, but also it's an issue with some time in life.
If I use my emotion when I get hit, like I did for Matissero, because I wanted to give it back to him right away.
I didn't like to be stunned.
I've never been stunned in my life, never.
It was the first time that I got stunned, and for me it was humiliating.
He humiliated me.
So I wanted to give it back right away so we can shut everybody's mouth and, you know, I can say, you see, it was just a little mistake and that's it.
But if you use it for that particular thing, it could be a big mistake.
You need to canalize it.
And knowing when it's time to use your emotion.
You keep it inside of you.
And when it's time, you let it explode.
joe rogan
Isn't that interesting where some fights that people love are really not the way you're supposed to fight?
Like a great example is Arturo Gatti and Mickey Ward.
georges st-pierre
Oh, God.
joe rogan
Everybody loves those fights, including me.
georges st-pierre
Absolutely, I loved it.
joe rogan
Those fights were amazing.
But if that was one of my fighters, I'd be like, stop.
And then Arturo Gatti in the third fight, I think it was the third fight where he outboxed him, he fought smart.
He stayed on his toes, moved around, he popped the jab, he did a lot of footwork and head movement, and he didn't brawl.
And he won the fight.
georges st-pierre
One of my favorite boxers of all time, the great Sugary Leonard, did that mistake with Roberto Duran.
He stood with him because he wanted to show him that he was a man.
But then after he danced, and the second fight, he clearly beat him up.
No mass!
joe rogan
Yeah, but Duran was fat for that fight.
They took advantage of Duran.
They knew Duran was partying, so they got him a fight on short notice, and he had to lose a lot of weight, and he had all these cramps, and he just...
He fucked up.
Roberto Duran fucked up.
That's what it was.
I mean, he got fat and he was way out of shape.
There's a lot of variables, but in the first fight, clearly, Sugar Ray Lantern, you know, he fought very well, but Duran won that decision.
It was just the worst way to fight Duran.
georges st-pierre
Exactly.
You can't...
I mean, it's good to be tough.
It's something that when fights are very close can help you to have an edge.
joe rogan
Yeah, but don't be tough for no reason.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, you shouldn't rely on it.
Especially in a fight, but especially in training, you should not rely on it.
We talk about guys leaving their career in the gym.
Toughness is not a good thing in the gym.
joe rogan
Yeah, you're so right.
And it's so hard for people to separate themselves and just say, no, I'm here to work and to improve.
The problem is you get tagged.
You're like, oh, you motherfucker.
And the next thing you know, you're in a war in the gym.
And you can only have so many of those.
If you have a punch card, this is your life.
You have a certain amount of shots you can take where you get really rocked You'll have certain amount and if you want to give up all those in the gym and we've all seen guys like that Where they you know a great example is when Travis Luter fought Marvin Eastman.
Did you ever see that fight?
Yeah, yeah, yeah He just connected with one punch and it was like on the end of the punch It didn't seem like the biggest punch and Marvin Eastman went out cold and it turned out that Marvin Eastman had been KO'd I believe twice in the gym leading up to that fight And it's happened multiple times where you see guys get hit and they go unconscious.
And you're like, why did that guy go out so easy?
And you go, oh, he got knocked out in the gym before the fight.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, I think what you don't see, that's what knocks you out most of the time.
We talk about power, but precision and timing.
But it's also...
With what I'm baiting you.
I'm baiting you to look here, then boom, I come on the other side.
Because while you're watching this, you're blind on the other side.
And when you get hit a lot, you have blind spots that accumulate in your vision.
And now we get into some of what I call secret weapon stuff.
Some people have secret weapon, secret knowledge.
Knowledge is a weapon.
I had a guy when I was training, when I was champion, during my welterweight run, I had a guy in Montreal that was measuring frames.
Nobody knows that.
He was watching fight and he was making a frame with image.
So when someone threw a punch, click, click, click, click.
And by doing that, he was able to know who has better reaction times than others.
So if you watch my first fight with BJ Penn, I had a horrible first round.
And that fight was very competitive, you know, all the way to the end, you know, like very, very tight fight.
I went into that fight.
Without that knowledge.
And normally when I was competing, I used to always be the fastest guy.
When I fought BJ Penn, he was so freaking fast.
He was in his prime.
And I remember normally when I go first, I always touch the target.
But BJ Penn, I couldn't touch him.
He was so fast.
My jab didn't work because he was always like avoiding it and coming back with a counter punch or, you know, counter jab.
And he messed me up real fast.
So I had to the second and third round.
I had to change my strategy to wrestling.
I won the fight by an inch.
After I met that guy, he's not a scientist, he's a guy that does that for fun.
And he showed me what he did.
And I thought it was just incredible.
It was like a secret weapon, secret knowledge that nobody knows.
He told me BJ Penn has the fastest reaction time of all the UFC roster that he couldn't measure.
And the way he did it is when you throw a punch or a kick, How much frame it takes him to react to that body stimuli.
And I know that BJ Penn had the fastest reaction time.
Lyoto Merchido, by the way, was second place.
Really?
Yes, yes.
But this, over time, can change because your brain can punch and, you know, so things change.
joe rogan
Body slowly.
unidentified
Yes.
georges st-pierre
I'm talking about prime BJ Penn.
I knew BJ Penn had the best reaction time, but I knew also he had a poor reset time.
And poor reset time is the guy told me that when I fought BJ Penn the second time, I knew that if I come into the fight, I couldn't go first because he was too fast.
What I did is...
Because the nervous system is like a muscle.
If you do a lot of reps, you get tired fast.
You might be like a sprinter at a very good start, but you will get tired fast.
So when I fought BJ Penn the first fight, when I tell you that when you fight someone, there's like a relation that happened up here that nobody sees around.
When I fought BJ Penn, I was faking a lot, showing him all these creativity.
joe rogan
In the second fight?
georges st-pierre
Yes!
Because I wanted to load up his nervous system to make him tired because I knew he had a quick reaction.
So he was flinching a lot.
I was making him flinch and react.
He was getting stiff and stiff and flinching because I want to get it out of his system.
So when he got tired and his nervous system is tired, now I could attack.
That's why my second fight had much more success against him than in my first fight.
joe rogan
Is this something that Feras and you devised?
unidentified
Yes.
joe rogan
Because I know Feras talks about that a lot, about overriding someone's, like, overwhelming their system.
unidentified
Yes.
joe rogan
With complications, with possibilities.
georges st-pierre
What you want to do is you want to load up his nervous system by showing him different things, different threats, kick, punch, fake it, anything you want to do that stimulates him.
If you stay in front of him and you don't move, that will not make him flinch, nothing like this.
So you need to make him flinch, even if it's not real, but you need to make him react.
And if you make him react...
He will flinch and get tired.
His nervous system will get tired and he won't.
His reaction time will slow down.
That's why I was able to get him.
And that's why I was able to figure out a lot of guys that I was fighting.
Because we had that information that nobody has.
A lot of people have different tricks.
It's like a war.
The American had the atomic bomb.
In fighting, we have that knowledge.
joe rogan
So watching, studying film, and breaking down the amount of frames.
georges st-pierre
Yes!
That's how we did it.
That's one of the secret weapon I had.
And now I'm sure some other guys use it as well.
joe rogan
Well, you had different approaches to different fighters too.
It's really interesting if you look at your career, you had a different approach to Thiago Alves, then you did to Josh Koscheck, then you did to John Fitch.
Every fight, you came in with a different strategy and a different approach.
georges st-pierre
Yes, and I knew also with that guy, That certain people have different blind spots.
For example, if you look at Chuck Liddell, you get caught very often with the same punch, the same looping punch.
My weakness for me, personally, I'm telling you, it was the things that come from under.
Because...
Because the stance I was always in, you know, more like a karate stance, lower stance, my stance was wider, ready for a takedown.
Because I was kind of looking up a little bit.
And if you look up, the thing that comes from under, you don't see it as well.
If you fight tall, you look down.
The thing that comes from the top, you see it as well.
So Chuck Liddell was more upright.
Things that come from the top.
And that you can study.
It's a blind spot.
And it's important to know.
It's very important to know.
And I'm aware of it.
When I decided to make the comeback against Bisping, first it was Luke Rockle that was the champion.
So I was, you know, nobody knew at the time, but we were...
Thinking about the comeback, when John brought me that idea, we were thinking about how could we fight.
It was Luke Rockall at the time.
And before Luke Rockall, I would never have made it because it was Chris Weinman.
And Chris Weinman is a teammate, is part of the same team.
I would never go up and challenge a guy from the same team.
But when it was Luke Rockall, I was, you know, looking at it.
And we were starting to, you know, because I'm always...
I always liked to be ahead of the curve, so I was trying to think about these kinds of stuff and study them.
But then Bisping messed up all the plan and I had to re-switch and learn about Bisping, you know?
So it was an interesting time.
But these are...
When you talk about secret weapons that fighters have, secret knowledge, these are one of the things.
And you don't talk about those things when you're an active fighter because you keep it for yourself.
And now...
There is a lot of stuff that now I see a lot of other guys are doing it, but back in the day, not much people did it.
Like tests with the eyes, it helps for a blind spot.
you had a doctor in Montreal that does that, you know, like, like beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, like the beep test reactions to, Yeah, I believe, like, I mean, there is no scientific proof.
But I do believe it increases your reaction times and it can help with blind spots.
joe rogan
A lot of people do things where they touch those lights.
georges st-pierre
Yes.
joe rogan
Like they have those light things and they do this just to try to increase reaction times.
georges st-pierre
In Montreal, when I get ready for fight, I have the same thing with lights.
I see and I have symbols.
Different symbols is different feet.
Sometimes it's one feet, left feet, sometimes it's right.
So because the feet, it takes more time for my nervous system to get the information and move my feet.
So that's why the doctor told me he did it with the feet.
However, I don't know if it clearly makes a difference because fighting is very specific.
But what I can tell you for sure, and this is from my experiences, if I do that kind of training, because I've done the mistake before, if I do that nervous system training and then I'm going to do a gymnastic training, My next training is horrible.
I have the worst training.
So it burns your nervous system.
And it's really true.
This I can guarantee you from my experience that is the truth.
So I would never do that and go spar.
Even though it's not physically demanding.
But it's very taxing on the nervous system.
joe rogan
Same way you overwhelm BJ Penn with the faints.
georges st-pierre
Exactly.
So it's like my nervous system is so tired that when I try to do a...
Like a half tuck flip.
I couldn't even do it.
I was all messed up.
And I remember, man, bro, I almost hurt myself one time because of it.
I did this training and like two hours after I went to do gymnastics, I almost hurt myself.
And my gymnastic coach told me, I remember I said, what's wrong, George?
I said, I don't know, man.
I think I've done my...
We call it Apex.
I did the Apex training for the nervous system and blind spot and reaction time.
I think I messed up, so I changed my training for something more slow.
But man, I was really messed up.
So that's why it's a real thing.
It's not Fugazi.
If you fake the guy, you make him flinch, you make him react, you stimulate his nervous system with all kinds of different threats, he will get tired and that will work.
joe rogan
That makes sense.
georges st-pierre
It's a thing.
Young fighters, pay attention to this.
This is the future, guys.
joe rogan
Can you increase your endurance in that?
As you do it over time, you can do it more easily, more efficiently?
georges st-pierre
So, once again, you need to talk to a neurologist, a doctor that specializes in it, but they believe that you can increase it.
And I believe, personally, that the best fighter in the world Are the ones that have the best nervous system.
It's not about muscle.
It's about, look guys, some of the guys, you know, they don't look like Greek gods, you know, statue, you know?
But they do very well because I believe their nervous system, you know, they got good timing, good reaction times.
That's a real thing.
joe rogan
I think it is a real thing, and I think it makes sense that you could get better endurance at that, just like you can get better at doing anything, whether it's running or hitting the bag or sparring or jiu-jitsu.
It makes sense that if you just did those reaction time drills over and over again, it would increase your reaction time.
georges st-pierre
However, I believe fighting is very specific.
Doing this exercise with the DOT, it might help your nervous system to be good at this game.
However, if you want to be good for fighters, I think it can cross over a little bit.
But it's like a little bit saying that doing bench press will make me punch harder.
I do not think so.
joe rogan
You know, there's certain fighters.
Like, what did you think about, like, Max Holloway for, in my opinion, one of his finest performances was against Calvin Cater, and he didn't spar at all.
And another one is, you know, Cedric Dumbay?
Cedric Dumbay, who fights for glory, who, in my opinion, is one of the greatest...
georges st-pierre
Yeah, French guy, yeah.
joe rogan
Amazing.
He's one of the greatest kickboxers alive.
He's my favorite guy to watch in glory.
He's fucking incredible.
georges st-pierre
Yeah.
joe rogan
All his training is physical training.
All his training is hitting the bag, sparring, hitting mitts, doing sprints.
I saw him work out.
He came to my, did my podcast, and then I had my gym in my old, in Los Angeles, I had a full gym.
So I had a treadmill, heavy bag, the whole deal.
And so I got to watch them run through a typical training.
And everything is sprint recovery, sprint recovery.
So he would get on, you know, I had an air runner, you know where those are?
The treadmill where it's self-propelled.
Yeah, you have to move it yourself.
So it's more difficult than a regular treadmill.
So he's just...
He's like, time!
And then he's like, got 15 seconds.
They put the gloves on him.
He's like, ready?
Go!
He goes over to the back.
Ba-ba-ba-boom!
Ba-ba-ba-boom!
unidentified
Ba-ba-boom!
joe rogan
So he has unbelievable resources in terms of his ability to sprint, recover, sprint, recover.
So that's all his training.
His training is all that.
All of his hitting pads.
He told me he doesn't even have a fucking kickboxing coach anymore.
georges st-pierre
He does not spar?
No!
There's...
joe rogan
He's super talented, too, though.
georges st-pierre
Yes, I know he is.
I really enjoy watching fights.
joe rogan
And playful, as well.
I think that's part of what makes him so good, too.
He's got a playful confidence to him.
georges st-pierre
I think...
I think he sparred before many times.
joe rogan
Oh, yeah.
unidentified
Definitely.
georges st-pierre
So the experience, it's a little bit like Jean-Charles Skarbusky, one of my coaches, told me it's like a bicycle.
In the beginning, when you start, you have to push hard, push hard, and then after, it's very easy.
You just need to do it.
I think that's how it is in combat sport.
joe rogan
Where Skowboski used to show up drunk, right?
He showed up drunk to your place of the Ultimate Fighter when you had him coach people.
It's one of my favorite clips on the Ultimate Fighter.
He shows up with a drink, partying all night, shows up to train.
He's fucking hammered.
And he gets in there, he's tripping people, dumping them, kicking their ass.
georges st-pierre
That's right, because he's very efficient.
That's why I believe if you're efficient...
You don't need to turn it on so much.
You don't need to spar as much.
And one thing I do a lot personally, I do not spar as much as people think.
I do a lot of reaction drills.
Like, let's say you throw me a jab, I will practice, you know, like the parry, come back with the hook.
So I learn how to...
How to read your body signature.
And I do it, the more you do it with different people, the better you are at learning the body signature.
That's why I had great takedowns.
People think it's my wrestling that give me those takedowns.
It's karate.
And the drills that I do, the drills that I repeat.
Yes, the blitz and also the fact that I'm not necessarily inspiring.
I drill a lot with people.
I have two kinds of takedowns that I really enjoy that I believe are very efficient and economical.
The reactive takedown and the proactive takedown.
Proactive is when I, myself, instigate the takedown.
I will throw something to distract my opponent, perhaps a jab, because I like it.
It's one of my longest weapons.
Against his nearest point, like Bruce Lee says.
Normally it would be the tie kick, but I use my jab for this.
I jab his hand, and then I go, because it's a distraction.
This is the proactive take down.
The reactive take down, it's when I bait him.
To throw punches and come forward to me.
I beat him like I'm scared, you know?
Like I'm fighting him and I'm playing like I'm scared.
It's a relation that I have with the other guy.
It's not only physical.
I'm trying to make you believe that I'm scared.
I'm here.
So I want you to go and try to knock me out.
unidentified
Boom!
georges st-pierre
I put you down.
These are very important when you fight.
You need to do these things.
So I don't think when you have the experience, sparring is very important because sparring is very different than the timing that you will face in the fight.
However, I'm still saying that sparring is the most similar thing that you will have to face when you compete in mixed martial arts.
You know what I mean?
But it's still very different.
And I think also that when you are in great shape, the thing is, if you're in great shape for a fight, You know, you will have more, better creativity.
Because when you get tired, it's like a horse, you know, who has like a mask like this.
Your creativity diminish.
And you always go back to what you do best.
It's like, oh, you forgot all the other things.
And we talked about like performance enhancing drugs.
And sometimes they say, oh, it's not the punch that knock you out.
That's the favorite excuses of people who are cheating.
But if...
You would not have used these things.
You wouldn't have the physical abilities that you have.
And perhaps you would have been shrink like this and you wouldn't have that creativity.
So that's what I'm saying.
Creativity is very important for a fighter.
And sometimes creativity is linked directly with physical condition.
joe rogan
Yes.
That's what I found so interesting about Cedric Dumbe is being there and watching him train at my gym.
I was like, oh, it was very enlightening because I've seen him fight before and he's fucking gas tank's incredible.
And he sees guys wither.
They start to wither.
And then he comes on and he knocks them out.
But it's because he can keep up a pace they can't keep up.
georges st-pierre
Yes.
joe rogan
Because his training is fucking ruthless, man.
It's all sprinting.
It's all...
He's on a treadmill.
Get to the back.
15, 13, 14, go!
Bang!
Bang!
So his body is conditioned to have a much higher threshold for endurance than the average fighter who's just doing normal mitt work, normal bag work, normal road work.
Everything he's doing is like sprint recovery.
And he has a really good physical trainer that came with him to the podcast.
And the guy waited, and then afterwards they did their workout together.
And I got a chance to watch him.
I was like, oh!
And you see how successful he is in glory.
He's fucking amazing.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, but I'm sure he put on the work.
He did his time in sparring.
So he's perhaps, if I make the analogy, like on a bicycle, but he climbed the hill already.
Now he's just like maintaining by doing...
Physical exercise.
joe rogan
The same as Max Holloway.
Like, Max Holloway said that.
He goes, look, I already know how to fight.
I know how to do that.
I've already done that.
And if you look at Max Holloway's fights and all of his time in the gym and then his kickboxing fights before he ever fought in MMA, he's got all this striking and all this timing already down.
So for him, it's like, why take the big hits?
He understands it now.
It's mostly reaction drills and endurance.
And Max is another one.
Tremendous endurance.
And also, tremendous ability to take a punch.
It's one of the most underrated things about Max that people forget.
He's never even been knocked down.
And he's been in wars.
He has a tremendous chin.
And I think part of that chin, particularly in the fights, the most recent fights, is the fact that he's not taking any damage in training.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, Tony Ferguson is another one.
I saw him in wildcard.
He says, hey, he doesn't spar apparently, and he's an amazing fighter.
You know what I mean?
Also, another thing, we talk about brain damage.
It's also the volume.
A lot of guys, I think...
And that's one thing I realized.
I think I did too much.
We have this tendency of always wanting to do more and more.
But more is not better.
More intelligent.
Intelligent is better.
joe rogan
You gotta know when to pull it back.
georges st-pierre
Yes, you burn yourself out.
And that's one thing too.
If the fight in mixed martial art is 15, perhaps 25 minutes, you want to know...
How much intensity you can give for that amount of time, not for two hours.
You know what I mean?
And this is where the training differ in, for example, in jujitsu, wrestling, and mixed martial art.
And that's when you need to be smart.
I believe if you get accustomed to a jujitsu pace, When you compete in mixed martial arts, you might have a hard time to adapt because Jiu Jitsu is a slower pace.
It's not as dynamic.
One thing I did to get ready for my fight with Michael Bisping to make me more opportunist, John's was making me do 3 minute rounds.
Instead of doing five-minute rounds, because you're never going to spend an entire five minutes on the ground in MMA, it's very unlikely.
Normally, you'll have like three-minute rounds, and then you have like perhaps, like I was taking a minute off, then another guy, three minutes.
So it made me roll at a higher pace, more importantness.
So when I was switching partner, I knew I had only three minutes.
I was giving everything I had in three minutes because I wanted to submit him.
I was more hungry.
And I knew after that I could recuperate and do the same thing to the next guy.
But if I'm going with a guy of five minutes, man, I knew if I submit him, I have another maybe two minutes left, so I'm going to cast out.
So I become...
I made myself used to a different pace.
And that's what I believe.
And same thing in wrestling.
In wrestling training, in wrestling competition, you spend hours in competition.
Then you have a match, then you relax.
Then you have another match.
So the wrestling training that I have in Montreal, that's how it's designed.
It's normal because it's for a wrestling competitor.
However, for martial art, especially when my fight is coming up, I need to modify that.
So I don't stay as long in the room as the other guys.
I get there, do my warm-up, do my matches, my live match, shake in, thank you, bye-bye.
Same thing in Jiu-Jitsu.
When I was getting ready for Michael Bisping, I was going with some of the monsters from the squad.
You know, Gordon Ryan, Gary Tonin, Jake Shield was there.
I had an incredible elite team with me.
It was unbelievable.
I was very well prepared.
So, if I would have had perhaps the same opportunity I had with that choke, maybe I would not have been...
Willing to take it if I would have had it earlier in my career because I was more on a slower pace, grappling pace, so to speak.
You know what I mean?
I was more on a control pace, ground and pound, instead of a finishing...
joe rogan
That rear naked choke that you hit on Michael Bisping is one of the best rear naked chokes I've ever seen.
It was perfect.
It was so tight, too.
And it wasn't like this, right?
With the hand with the palm on the back of the head.
It was perfect.
It was so sunk in, man.
It was so sunk in.
It was so nice.
georges st-pierre
The people, they make the mistake sometimes when they have a rear naked choke, they go like this.
And also, they try to pull.
You don't want to pull.
You want to crunch your abs.
And that's...
I think I was able to do that because the way that my training was designed, I became more opportunist.
I had more like a killer's instinct.
And sometimes guys tend to say that, oh, you lose that with time.
But I think you can get it back.
It's just the way you design your training.
And if you always go with training partner who are just as good or better than you, It will make you practice your defense and it might decrease your creativity in offense in a way that you know because if you know if you if you try something that miss you might get cut right so I believe even if you're a champion if you're an elite you need to go with guys that are your level but also guys that are not as good as you Eddie Bravo always
stressed this he always said the best way to get good at jujitsu is to spar with blue belts Roger Gracie, when he moved to England, that's when he became so successful.
joe rogan
Because he was training with people that had no business being on the mat with him.
georges st-pierre
Exactly.
joe rogan
So he got reps.
georges st-pierre
Man, his offense got so much better.
And I remember at that time, a lot of people thought that he would...
His level would decrease because he moved to England.
It went the opposite way.
And I remember when I first started my career in mixed martial arts, I didn't have any training partner to go with.
I had like David Loiseau.
I had Patrick Cote, I had Dennis Kang.
Once a week, all the Canadian fighters we used to meet once a week and train and spar.
And then see you next week.
And if you had a bad training session that Friday, it messed up your whole weekend.
Anyway, for me, that's how it was because I became obsessed.
I was like, man, I'm going to get him next weekend.
And you start thinking about all what you should have done.
And then the next week, you redeem yourself, you know?
joe rogan
Yes.
georges st-pierre
But that's how it was, you know what I mean?
Like, when I was saying, I was talking about, yeah, so you don't need to always go with good guys all the time.
So I had these guys on Fridays.
But the other days, I was going with guys that are maybe, he's an engineer, that guy is a janitor in a gym buddy.
They were my sparring partner.
And that's how I developed my takedown dream.
My timing for my takedown.
That's how I developed my confidence, my timing.
Because these guys were not my level.
But they were, you know, I did one round with one, then a fresh one come.
And later in my career, perhaps I become more conservative as a fighter because I start Going with guys my level.
So it makes me train in a way that if I try something new, I might miss and they're going to make me pay the price.
So, no, I'm not going to do it.
And your training is always reflecting of how the fight will go, I believe.
joe rogan
Yeah, and as you were saying earlier, you have to learn to be playful.
It's easier to be playful when you're going with someone who's not quite at your level.
You have to have a varied diet.
You have to have people that are elite, where you have to know what it feels like to be in there against an elite fighter, but also people that aren't as elite so you can practice things.
georges st-pierre
That's right.
I think you need to have a big range, a variety of training partners.
joe rogan
Yes.
georges st-pierre
Because if you're used to have different training partners, the bigger is your range, the better you will be able to adapt and become the perfect nemesis of different kinds of styles.
Oh, a smaller, stockier opponent.
Oh, a longer, bigger reach guy.
Yes.
And I think it's good also...
To make it playful, but to make your training partner also that it's a game.
You're not there to...
It's not about an ego.
Yes, exactly.
joe rogan
Did John Donaher come up with this idea of you sparring for three minutes instead of five?
georges st-pierre
No, I did.
I did.
joe rogan
You just decided that the pace was not fast enough?
georges st-pierre
I talked to John and John agreed on it.
And I've started doing it in Montreal.
And I always ask John.
If John would have told me he'd disagree, I would have obeyed to John.
Because I think it's important when you're in a training camp.
You cannot be the boss.
You have to get out of your comfort zone.
I agree.
We talked about Conor McGregor's last loss.
I think Conor can come back.
Like he was, and perhaps better than he was, but he needed...
joe rogan
You had good advice about that, though.
georges st-pierre
You need to get out of his comfort zone.
He cannot be the boss.
Because it's easy when you're wealthy, you're healthy, you're wealthy, you got everything you need in the world, you know, you're not hungry anymore.
But you need to be willing to do that.
It's a sacrifice that needs to be made, especially at the elite level.
joe rogan
I think someone on the outside needs to look at what you're doing.
You can't look at it objectively yourself.
You need someone analyzing.
Someone who you implicitly trust.
georges st-pierre
I agree.
I agree.
Because sometimes it's hard to look at ourselves in the mirror and know ourselves.
joe rogan
Especially when you have a big ego, like Connor.
georges st-pierre
Yes.
joe rogan
So, you know, for good reasons.
I mean, he's very confident.
But it's because of his success and because of his ability.
He understands what he's capable of.
But I don't think that's enough.
georges st-pierre
We say sometimes that you don't want to fix something that is not broken, but I think it's wrong.
I think when you're on top, you need to fix something that is not broken because otherwise the sport will catch up to you.
You need to innovate.
And if you stay there, the sport will catch up to you.
You know what I mean?
Of course, Conor, he's not champion and he had a few losses, but you need to have a reality check if you want to stay there and be successful, I believe, you know?
joe rogan
And it's broken.
It's broken.
If it's not broken, don't fix it.
Well, it's broken.
georges st-pierre
It is.
joe rogan
So you have to fix it.
I mean, Dustin clearly broke it.
And the low calf kick was never a weapon that was very popular when you were champion.
georges st-pierre
Yeah.
joe rogan
Is that fascinating to you that this one thing has emerged that's been one of the most important weapons to learn how to avoid and block and implement?
georges st-pierre
Yeah, it's...
Because a lot of guys, their striking background come from Muay Thai.
And in Muay Thai, it's not really used because the legs are...
The stance is more narrow.
So if the stance are more narrow, you can lift and shield it easier.
However, in MMA... The octagon is much bigger.
The surface which you fight on is bigger.
So in order to have a better mobility, most fighters, they adopt a wider stance, which increases your mobility.
However, it has a profound effect on how you can shield the kick.
I believe the best way to deal with that kick is either get out or either step blitz in with a counter or I developed one that you lift your heel.
You completely turn the opposite way.
You go with your heel.
I was talking to Bas Rutten about it on a shoot.
joe rogan
How so?
In what way?
georges st-pierre
In Los Angeles.
Let's say you don't have time to shield it because you see it coming too late.
What you do is you turn around and it's a little bit like you want to...
Like an hamstring exercise, you want to lift your heel to your butt.
You go here.
It's like the person will hit your foot and might hit your heel.
And it works.
I've done it.
It works.
joe rogan
And so you let them sort of kick you and let your leg move with it.
georges st-pierre
Yes.
I'm from karate background.
So for me, that's the way I would react.
Perhaps someone who's from a different background, it won't work as well.
Because I like to stand wide.
I like to have better mobility.
So it's either you see it coming, you step out.
If you're out, if you're too close, you step in, you blitz in.
I've done that many times in my fight.
And if you're in the middle range and you don't have time, you simply kick your heel up.
So people will kick your foot.
Yeah, and it works.
I've done it.
It works.
joe rogan
Interesting.
unidentified
Yes.
joe rogan
So if you are fighting someone who's standing orthodox and you're standing orthodox, your left leg would be in front and you would just pick it up and they would kick your heel instead of kicking your calf.
georges st-pierre
Yes, and it's a fast move.
Because if you try to shield it, you don't have enough time.
This movement, because the posterior chain of the leg, the muscles of the posterior chain are much more fast twitch than the one forward.
When you sprint, you use your hamstring, you don't use your quad.
So when you see something, you need to react quick.
You go with the hamstring and the glute and you do that movement.
It's much quicker than trying to shield it.
joe rogan
Some guys are doing a good job of turning their foot outside though and catching it on the shin instead of catching it on the calf.
Did you see Pedro Munoz versus Jimmy Rivera?
Good fight, right?
Pedro Munoz was landing the calf kicks, but then when Jimmy Rivera was trying to hit him, Pedro was turning his foot outward and catching it right on the shin.
georges st-pierre
Yeah.
joe rogan
And it discouraged Jimmy from throwing as many kicks and it was just more effective for Pedro because he was checking them.
georges st-pierre
That would work too.
However, depending on your background, once again, I'm from karate background, so I'm used to fight sideways because karate is designed for street fight.
You want to protect your center line.
If you do that, in the history fight, they will kick you in the balls, you know, because your center line is all open.
So when you fight, like me, it would be hard to do because I won't have enough time to turn like that.
It depends.
Everybody is...
There are some techniques that will work for you better than it will work for me and vice versa.
You need to find what is good for you.
joe rogan
I still think to this day that the most underutilized technique in MMA that I think will eventually be more utilized is the front leg techniques.
You see it with Wonderboy in particular.
He's really good at like throwing sidekicks and keeping guys off and front leg round kicks.
There was guys when I was doing Taekwondo that were so fucking good with their front leg you couldn't get close to them.
And I always felt like, man, if those guys could learn everything else, if those guys could learn Muay Thai, if they could learn takedown defense and jujitsu, they'd be devastating because their front leg was so good.
There was a guy named Larry Jones, and I used to spar with him all the time, and Larry's legs went all the way up the fuck up to here.
It went up to his tits.
It was crazy.
He had the longest legs.
I mean, his upper body was like a normal length, but he was like six foot three.
But it was all long legs.
And when Larry would spar people, He was really light on his foot and relaxed and he would stand sideways and you were terrified of his front leg.
You couldn't get close to him because it was like a jab.
It was so fast.
georges st-pierre
It's fascinating that you just said Joe because what you just said it's Bruce Lee like talks about it like in his books like When he says, you use your longest weapon against the nearest point of my opponent.
joe rogan
Like a jab.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, like you're a sidekick to the thigh, to the knee.
I mean, that's what it is.
I truly believe.
That in martial art, there's three different dimensions, right?
They're the competitor, like I do, like in UFC. It's the real thing, you know?
It's about timing.
There's the choreography, like what you see, for example, on TV, the stuntmen.
They are incredible.
They do stuff that I cannot do.
They are the best in their field.
And there's also the philosopher.
I would say Bruce Lee, yeah, of course, he could do the two other dimensions.
And when you're a martial artist, I think you have all three dimensions, but there is one that you're mostly better at.
And Bruce Lee, I believe, what he brings to the world was his philosophy.
I think he's known because of his philosophy, not necessarily because Hollywood made him a fighter and everything, but I think the truth is that His philosophy is really the thing that really changed the world.
It changed my life.
He could be a good fighter, but sometimes people say, hey, what happened if you would put him in UFC? I don't think.
Times has changed since then.
Even the guys that used to compete in UFC, in the first few UFC, you cannot put them in the octagon right now.
It would apply to Bruce as well, but his philosophy, man...
That was brilliant.
joe rogan
I think people don't understand how revolutionary it was.
Because in the 1970s, when Bruce Lee was doing like Enter the Dragon, the people that were martial arts practitioners were convinced that their style was all you needed to learn.
When I was doing Taekwondo, my instructor would tell me, I would go to a boxing gym and train with boxers, and they would tell me, you don't need to do that.
You can work your hands here.
I'm like...
Can I, though?
Because I'm going to the boxing gyms.
I'm getting fucked up.
My hands are not as good.
I need to learn with people that are really good boxers.
So I would go and train with professional boxers, and then I was realizing all the flaws in my technique.
I wouldn't have learned that in the gym.
And then I would go and train with judo guys, and I'd be like, oh, I didn't know it was so easy to throw me around.
You need to know, and the only way to know is to go to these different places.
But Bruce Lee...
Back then, put everything together.
I was watching, my daughters did martial arts when they were younger, but they're not really into it anymore, but sometimes they'll watch movies with me and shit, and I was watching Enter the Dragon, the opening scene of Enter the Dragon when he's got the mixed martial arts gloves on.
Remember?
georges st-pierre
Is there the one with Bolo Young?
joe rogan
Yes!
georges st-pierre
Oh yeah.
joe rogan
They look like MMA gloves.
And this is, you know, in the 1970s.
And he wins by an arm bar.
georges st-pierre
It's kind of a fucked up arm bar.
joe rogan
It's a bullshit arm bar.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, it's the worst arm bar I've ever seen.
But listen, it was ahead of his time.
joe rogan
Yes, but there was a lot of arm bars in the early UFCs that were bullshit too.
georges st-pierre
That's right.
joe rogan
Other than hoist.
Here it is, man.
Like, watch this scene.
Look, I mean, look at his gloves.
georges st-pierre
Is that Bolo Young next to him?
joe rogan
Yes!
georges st-pierre
Man, he doesn't have his chest.
joe rogan
I don't know if that's Bolo.
No, that's not Bolo.
georges st-pierre
No, it can't be Bolo Young.
joe rogan
But Bolo's in the movie, right?
georges st-pierre
I'm going to tell you something.
joe rogan
I think he's in it later.
georges st-pierre
I'm going to tell you something.
Bolo Young is the best villain ever in all martial art movies.
He's unbelievable in Bloodsport and...
Like, amazing.
joe rogan
Look how shredded Bruce was, too.
unidentified
Woo!
joe rogan
He was shredded.
georges st-pierre
That's right.
joe rogan
He had no body fat.
But he was so fast and his movement was so interesting and there was nothing like it at the time.
georges st-pierre
He was ahead of his time.
Way ahead.
He was the greatest of his time, 100%.
joe rogan
But there's innovators and you can't compare them to people that have learned and already moved past his footsteps.
Because he carved the path.
He carved the path, and by the Tao of Jeet Kune Do, if you read that book, and I read that book cover to cover like 20 times, he combined martial arts in a way.
He said, absorb what's useful.
Take what's useful.
And throw out everything else.
And there were so many martial artists that hated him because of that.
Because of what he was saying was, like, that it didn't matter if you were doing karate or if you were doing Muay Thai, whatever it was.
Just find out what works and put them together.
Put them all together.
And...
People did not like hearing that back then because if you were running a karate school, you were trying to tell your students this was all you needed to learn.
That's it.
But he knew.
I talked to Gene LaBelle, and Gene LaBelle taught him about grappling.
And one of the things that Gene LaBelle did when they first worked together, Gene LaBelle grabbed him.
Gene LaBelle was a fucking massive guy.
He was built like a bear and phenomenal judo player, national champion, elite of the elite.
He grabbed a hold of...
And Bruce Lee was like, oh shit!
unidentified
Like, he realized, like, I'm helpless against this fucking gorilla.
joe rogan
And then Gene showed Bruce Lee judo, and he showed him submission techniques.
unidentified
That's right.
joe rogan
He showed him all that stuff, and Bruce was super open-minded to that.
georges st-pierre
We cannot compare, like, sometimes we talk about who's the greatest.
Same thing in basketball, same thing.
Like, because, I think it's Einstein says, we stand on shoulders of giants.
unidentified
Yes.
georges st-pierre
All the progress that have been made, the mistakes that have been made in the past, the progress, we've learned from it.
So we already start nowadays, we already have a head start on the people in the past.
joe rogan
I think that's with everything.
georges st-pierre
We cannot compare.
People always in every interview, they ask me, who's the goat?
Who's the goat?
And I was surprised.
I said, for me, the goat is Royce Gracie.
And people are like, yeah, but you put him in the ring right now.
I'm like, of course you put him in the ring.
It would be a different story.
The fighters of today are better than the fighters of yesterday.
And as good as the fighters are today, sorry to disappoint the ones that are watching.
And if I hurt some ego, but in the future, they will be better.
joe rogan
They will be better.
georges st-pierre
We cannot stop the progress.
I remember, Joe, to learn jujitsu.
Like, 20 years ago, like more than 25 years ago, to learn Jiu-Jitsu, I need to drive to New York, you know, to be physically present in the class.
Now I can grab my cell phone and learn a technique from a guy who's in Australia.
joe rogan
Yeah, yeah.
georges st-pierre
And now there's things that I worked on this weekend.
There's like holograms.
This is going to be the future of the sport.
unidentified
Holograms.
georges st-pierre
Holograms.
So you'll be able to turn, to zoom in, to check on dirt, where you put this in.
I was with Kevin Lee.
We work on stuff like that.
joe rogan
Oh, that's what they were talking about.
I saw you and Kevin in front of a green screen.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, so that's gonna be a game changer.
I told a guy that he wanted to do exclusively for sports, you know, for games.
But for instructional, this is a game changer.
And I don't think the athletes get better.
I don't think Usain Bolt is necessarily better than Jesse Owen in the 100m.
I think he has access to better knowledge, better technology.
That makes him have better performance.
It's the same thing in fighting.
However, in fighting, it's very subjective because we cannot measure.
We don't have any instrument of measure.
So it's always, oh, it's Ali against Tyson, who would have won, like, oh, St-Pierre versus Ousmane, or, you know, like, they make comparative stuff like that.
However, it cannot be made, but normally...
General idea is that the future is always better than the past.
And that's how it is.
And if I don't agree with that, that means I insult the entire UFC roster.
I insult the entire NBA, the entire NHL. That's what I believe.
joe rogan
I think you're 100% correct, and I think the quote, we stand on the shoulders of giants, that's really what it is.
You don't get to where we are today without Hoist Gracie, without Bruce Lee, without the steps of all these people, without Matt Hughes, without George St. Pierre, without all, fill in the blank, Randy Couture, Tito Ortiz, all those fighters, they paved the way, and the young fighters that were watching them when they were children, they learned from watching these guys compete and perform.
In jujitsu, it's a great example.
Gordon Ryan is the greatest jujitsu player of all time.
georges st-pierre
I agree, 100%.
joe rogan
And he's only 25. Yeah.
It's fucking crazy, right?
But also, why is he the greatest?
Well, he's the greatest because John Donaher is a brilliant instructor, and John Donaher came straight from Henzo Gracie.
Henzo Gracie, who's a cousin of Hoyce, who's also one of the greatest of all time, and one of the innovators.
The Gracie family and all the lessons learned from the early days of mixed martial arts gets transferred to John Donner in his genius mind, and then he finds this guy who's a fucking savage, who's willing to put in the time in Gordon Ryan, and then you see Gordon, did you see his last match with Wagner Rocha?
He wrote down on a piece of paper how he was going to submit.
He wrote a triangle on a piece of paper and he handed it to the commentators.
And he said, open that up after the match is over.
And then he plays with Wagner and then submits him with a triangle.
georges st-pierre
It's fucking incredible.
Gordon is my friend.
This could be also by deduction.
When you talk about preparation, How good someone can be prepared.
It's because he knew how his strength would match versus his opponent.
That's when the genius comes in.
Like John De Niro, Gordon Ryan.
And Gordon is amazing, man.
He's the best right now I ever roll with.
Like all size.
joe rogan
He's the best I've ever seen.
I've never seen anybody.
georges st-pierre
But as good as his, watch out for his little brother, Nicky.
joe rogan
Oh, he's a beast.
georges st-pierre
And you know why they're so good?
John is a PhD in philosophy.
He's incredible.
He used to teach at Columbia University.
And all his academic background experience, he brings that into martial art.
That's why, for me, he's the best teacher ever.
joe rogan
Also, he's a seven-day-a-week guy.
I talk to him.
I go, seven days a week?
georges st-pierre
Morning to night, my friend.
joe rogan
Every day.
I go, you guys don't take any day off?
He goes, no.
I go, what do you do for recovery?
He goes, you just train less hard.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, that's right.
joe rogan
I'm like, Jesus Christ.
I go, Christmas?
He goes, Christmas, New Year's, birthday, every day.
georges st-pierre
You can do that in jiu-jitsu, Joe, but you cannot do that, I think, in a sport like with boxing or a more dynamic sport.
You cannot do that because the...
It would have a profound effect on your body and how you recuperate.
joe rogan
I think you're right too in terms of your tissue.
georges st-pierre
We talk about how white people get better.
We talk about knowledge.
One of the greatest role models for me was Wayne Gretzky.
Wayne Gretzky and ice hockey in Canada is our national sport.
He was incredibly humble.
His record, I think he's one of the athlete all sport combined that I can say for certainty or almost for certainty that his record will never be broken during my living.
Really?
Yeah, he's that good, bro.
He's amazing.
joe rogan
I don't know jack shit about hockey.
georges st-pierre
However, if you would put him right now on the ice, I don't think he would do that well.
Because for his time, when you talk about the GOAT, We don't talk about the present time.
We talk about how was he for his time.
joe rogan
So who he was competing against.
georges st-pierre
It depends what goat means.
It doesn't mean for his time or it means like right now.
Because if we talk about right now, it will always be a guy from the present.
And man, he used to start...
He's the first guy to start to go behind the goaltender net to start a play.
Now you see it.
He was the first.
Before him, nobody did that before.
And he revolutionized the game.
So now they stand on shoulders of a giant.
Now you see that every day.
But he was so special because he had to figure it out in the beginning.
And what makes him so great?
It's not because he was faster or stronger than everyone else.
It's because of his IQ, his hockey IQ. Yeah.
So this is something that when you talk about sport, we always tend to say, oh, he's so athletic.
But I think when you say athletic, of course, we talk about muscle, speed and everything.
But athleticism is also how your brain can adjust to things, how your learning capacity.
That has a lot to do with...
Athletism.
How fast can you learn a movement pattern?
How fast can you adapt to certain situations to solve it?
This is athleticism as well.
joe rogan
And how quickly can you access the techniques?
How deep is your database?
If I had to pay money for any matchup ever, I would pay so much money for Hicks and Gracie versus Gordon Ryan.
I know a lot of people, they would have a lot of different fights they would like to see between John Jones and this and that.
That's all good.
For me, I love all martial arts, but I'm most perplexed by the people that stand out as being above and beyond.
And in Hickson's time, you talk to any black belt from Hickson's time, and they're like, Hickson was the best.
No one could touch Hickson.
Hickson would line these black belts out and line them up and do a seminar and tap them all.
One after the other.
One after the other.
georges st-pierre
You think it's true or is it because it's part of the legend?
No, it's true.
joe rogan
It's true because John-Jacques Machado told me.
unidentified
Wow.
joe rogan
I know it's true.
I know it's true because John-Jacques, he's as honest as the day is long.
John-Jacques never lies about anything.
He tells you and he always says, man, Hickson will fuck you up.
That's what he always said.
He goes, Hickson was different.
It was different.
georges st-pierre
I gotta ask you a question or put you on the spot.
unidentified
I mean, you cut it if you wanted to.
Okay.
georges st-pierre
I heard rumors about a fight with you and Wesley Snipes.
joe rogan
But it didn't happen.
It was supposed to happen.
unidentified
Really?
joe rogan
Yeah, yeah.
georges st-pierre
Man, people ask me about that.
I was like, man, Joe Rogan, because you're a comedian, people doesn't know that you have a legit...
Like, martial art background.
You got the best spinning back kick I've ever seen.
And I would have, like, people, when they talk to me about it, they say, yeah, but he's a good martial.
I'm like, man, Joe Rogan all day, man.
Let me tell you, like, this is different.
I've done movies, and when you do movies, it makes you look good.
But when, do it for real and do it for the camera, it's two different things.
I would have loved to see this.
joe rogan
Well, I think he just needed money.
You know, he was in a bad situation where he owed taxes.
And the government, they put him in jail.
You know, he got put in jail for tax evasion.
I think he had bad advisors.
And sometimes advisors would tell you, like, there's a law and you don't have to follow that law.
And I think that's what happened with Wesley.
And I'm a fan of his, by the way.
I love Blade.
It's one of my favorite superhero movies of all time.
I think he's great.
And he's a legit martial artist.
It wouldn't have been easy.
But I also knew that he didn't have any jiu-jitsu training.
And I was like, I know how to kickbox.
I know I fought.
I fought a lot of Taekwondo tournaments.
I fought some kickboxing matches.
I'm like, I know how to strike.
If he doesn't know any jiu-jitsu, at the time I was a brown belt, I was like, good luck.
I'm going to grab you.
What the fuck are you going to do if I grab you?
I don't think people understand how helpless you are if you're not trained in jiu-jitsu, or even if you're a blue belt.
If you train with a guy who's a legit brown belt or a black belt.
I just...
georges st-pierre
Knowledge is a weapon.
Even if you're the best boxer in the world, you flood Mayweather.
It's like I take Floyd Mayweather and I bring him to fight in the pool, in the water.
If Floyd doesn't know how to swim, it would be the same analogy that taking someone that doesn't have any jiu-jitsu background.
If the fight goes to the ground, which is very likely because you need, in MMA, in a street fight, you need to go on the ground to finish your opponent if he falls down, right?
joe rogan
Right.
And this also, there's so many other elements.
You know, it's just...
Do you ever see when Vince Phillips fought Masato in K1? Mmm...
georges st-pierre
I don't think so.
joe rogan
Vince Phillips, cool Vince Phillips, was a bad motherfucker.
He was an elite boxer, world champion boxer.
See if you can find that.
See if you can find that online.
I think it was in K1. And Masato was at the peak of his game.
There it is.
And so Vince Phillips at the time...
Was a little older, I think, if I remember correctly, I think he was in his later 30s, but Vince Phillips was a fucking elite professional boxer, world champion, and Masato, oh, he's 44, yeah, a little too old for that.
Unfortunately, so it would have been interesting more so if they fought in their prime, but Vince was still very fucking good, but Masato just lit his legs on fire.
georges st-pierre
Oh, man.
joe rogan
And Masato, at the time, Masato's one of the greatest Japanese kickboxers of all time.
I mean, he was fucking elite, man.
And his leg kicks were phenomenal.
And so he just moved around.
And if they had a boxing match, I think Vince would have fucked him up.
But they didn't have a boxing match.
Masato just kept chopping at those legs, moving away, moving away.
Boom!
Look at that.
Moving away, moving away, moving away.
unidentified
Boom!
georges st-pierre
You changed the rules.
You changed the game.
joe rogan
Yep.
georges st-pierre
I remember Tim Silvio versus in MMA. Ray Mercer!
unidentified
Yeah!
georges st-pierre
Mercer knocked him out.
But you know why?
Because it was stupid from Silvio trying to make it a boxing match.
joe rogan
Well, do you know what happened?
georges st-pierre
No, I don't know.
joe rogan
Here's what happened.
They were supposed to have a boxing match.
Here's what happened.
Here, let's just watch it real quick.
Boom!
Timber!
This is what happened.
They were supposed to have a boxing match, but the Athletic Commission wouldn't sanction a boxing match because Tim Sylvia didn't have any boxing matches and Ray Mercer was a gold medalist in the Olympics and a world champion.
So they're like, there's no fucking way.
Even though Ray Mercer was older, they said there's no fucking way you're going to fight Tim Sylvia in a boxing match.
So they said, what about a mixed martial arts match?
Well, okay.
Well, that makes more sense because Tim Sylvia was a world champion in mixed martial arts and you're a world champion in boxing.
Okay.
So they sanctioned that fight, but they made a gentleman's agreement.
The gentleman's agreement was they would just have a boxing match with the little gloves on.
But they open up the fight.
Watch the open up the fight.
Tim Sylvia leg kicks him.
And look at Ray Mercer.
He's like, what the fuck?
Because he's like, I thought we had a rule.
Bang!
And so that's why he was so angry after the fight was over because they weren't supposed to kick.
But Tim Sylvia opened up and he hit him with a leg kick.
Look, see how he's like, what the fuck is this?
He's like, what the fuck is this?
Because they had an agreement.
georges st-pierre
I didn't know that.
joe rogan
Yes, they were going to have a boxing match, but with the little gloves on.
georges st-pierre
It's like these fights are mismatched.
You see Randy Cutservice's James Toney.
joe rogan
Yes.
georges st-pierre
If you're James Toney, what the hell are you thinking, man?
joe rogan
James Toney needed money.
That's what that was.
James Toney needed money.
I remember interviewing James Toney before the fight.
And I'm like, did you practice any kicks?
Like, yeah, I practiced all these kicks.
I practiced side check kick.
He was making kicks up that didn't even exist.
He's like, yeah, I'm training.
Don't worry about it.
I'm training.
georges st-pierre
Randy went for a low single.
And a low single when there's no shoes to grab, the only thing you need to do is to turn your kneecap facing the other way and just step out.
It's the most ridiculous thing to do, to escape, because it's outside of his frame of reference.
joe rogan
I don't think he did.
Honestly, I watched him train, on video at least, it looks like he was training with a karate guy.
He was hitting some pads and stuff and throwing some...
Here's the...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But also, Randy was an elite wrestler and also an elite world champion, mixed martial arts fighter.
Got on top of James and hit him a bunch of times and then mercifully arm triangled him.
If I remember correctly, I believe it was an arm triangle he submitted him with.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, but now they do more and more of these matches.
Like you have Jake Paul versus Ben Askren.
joe rogan
Yeah, here it is.
Arm triangle.
Yeah, that was what it was.
georges st-pierre
I asked Freddie Roach because, you know, like I train with Freddie Roach.
I say you train because they make it look like they train Ben Askren like the whole camp.
He said he came only for a week.
joe rogan
Well, I know he's training with Duke Rufus.
Duke is obviously a very good striking coach.
Ben is a world-class wrestler.
In his prime, he was one of the best wrestlers that America had to offer.
He's an elite wrestler.
georges st-pierre
Yeah.
joe rogan
He's also older, and he's got a lot of mixed martial arts experience, but none of that was as a striker.
His striking was really just a distraction in order to get you down.
georges st-pierre
You take away all his favorite weapons.
This is not fair, you know?
joe rogan
It's weird, though, because He's clearly an elite competitor.
And you could say, oh, Masvidal knocked him out.
Let me tell you something.
That fucking knee would have knocked out 99% of the human beings that have ever lived.
That knee was perfect.
I mean, Masvidal's a slick guy.
He's a slick, clever guy.
And the way he did that by leaning up against the cage and then stepping off to the side so that Askren follows him and then he moves forward.
Askren couldn't resist.
His natural instinct is to just dive on the single or dive on a double.
Just get those legs and try to take them down.
georges st-pierre
Perfect bait.
joe rogan
Oh, it was amazing.
georges st-pierre
Perfect timing.
joe rogan
And you see in his training that he practiced that over and over and over again.
They showed the video of Masvidal practicing for that very scenario.
But other than that, he's fought a lot of elite strikers and not gotten knocked out.
Like, if you look at his fights when he fought Douglas Lima or Koroskov, when he fought those guys in Bellator, I mean, he did very well, but he was allowed to wrestle.
How was he going to do in an actual boxing match?
I mean, I've never, just be honest, I've never thought of him as being a good striker.
unidentified
No.
joe rogan
He's a guy that just kind of uses his hands to get a hold of you.
georges st-pierre
It's a different muscle.
When you're a wrestler, it's all about pulling, you know what I mean?
And driving.
Boxing is way more dynamic.
And he's an Olympic wrestler, you know what I mean?
The reason why he had so much success, I believe, Ben Askren, it's because when he was in his prime, nobody could figure out how...
They know how technically make it in a way that the odds would be in their favor, but they couldn't.
Do it, you know what I mean?
They knew the secret to beat him was to keep it standing up and keep distance, you know?
joe rogan
But they couldn't stop the shot.
georges st-pierre
They couldn't do it.
Everybody knew what he was going to do, but nobody could stop it.
And now you take that away from him, it's going to be hard for him.
I just hope...
unidentified
What I found sad sometimes, I just hope...
georges st-pierre
Man, and I really do hope that it does not make us look...
But I hope Ben is training hard and, you know, at least, you know, like...
joe rogan
When is that fight?
It's soon, isn't it?
Two weeks.
The problem is he doesn't...
It's hard to frame this correctly.
georges st-pierre
Freddie Roach, I asked him, because I thought that if one guy can help him the best is Freddie Roach.
So I told him, hey, where is Ben?
You're training Ben?
And he says, Ben, he came only one week.
I was disappointed.
I said, shoot, I hope he has a right...
He's surrounded by real...
Boxers.
Because the world of boxing and the world of MMA is a different...
joe rogan
Different world.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, you need to...
joe rogan
His hands look pretty good there, though.
His hands look pretty good.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, but everybody is champion on the pad, Joe, you know?
Everybody, you never know.
joe rogan
That's a good way to put it.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, man.
joe rogan
Everybody's a champion in the pad.
georges st-pierre
See, guys, I had four amateur boxing fights.
I'm 4-0 in boxing.
And I remember before every amateur boxing fight, you watch the guys you're going to fight.
I was in an open division, so I was fighting guys that had multiple fight records.
So I look at them, they all look good on the pad.
Same thing in MMA. Because they're used to the...
The rhythm, you know?
So everybody's champion, but that's when you fight.
It's a different story.
I just hope he put on the work and sparred.
Otherwise, it's going to look bad, you know?
It's going to look bad for all the athletes, not only in MMA, in boxing.
But Jake Paul is a real boxer, I think.
He had a legit boxing fight in Amatar, right?
Him or his brother.
joe rogan
Well, he's only had a couple of fights, but in the way he looked against...
What was that guy's name?
Nate?
What's his name, Jamie?
Nate Robinson.
The way he looked in that fight...
georges st-pierre
He knocked him out.
joe rogan
He knocked him out, but he also knocked him out with short punches.
He throws short...
He's not winding up.
He threw a short right hand that he dropped him with.
He's got real skill.
georges st-pierre
Yeah.
joe rogan
He can fucking hit, man.
His punching is very, very legit.
He's got legitimate knockout power and he's willing to train hard and spar hard.
He looks fucking good, man.
georges st-pierre
What I don't like is the idea that a lot of people think it's maybe because a lot of them it's because of ignorance.
They think, oh, he's just a YouTuber against an MMA champion.
But the truth is you've got a guy that has a real boxing background.
joe rogan
Well, he's a good athlete.
georges st-pierre
Yes, yes.
And he's fighting another guy who's an MMA fighter, but that's really not his specialty.
That's really, really, and really not his specialty.
But the reason why he was successful in MMA is because he was so damn good in the other thing.
joe rogan
He's also quite a bit larger.
Like, I think Jake is, uh, what did he weigh against Nate Robinson?
His brother is like 200 plus pounds, somewhere in the range.
unidentified
Yeah, I saw that.
joe rogan
I saw that.
But, I mean, he's not just taller, and he's a little bit taller, but he's like a physically bigger person.
Like, Ben, although, you know, his body never looked impressive, he's very strong as a grappler, but he doesn't get a chance to grapple.
This is not a grappling match.
This is a boxing match.
I don't know.
I don't know.
georges st-pierre
I think it would need to somehow, sometime, because I've sparred world champion boxers in my life many times.
I can hang there for three, four rounds with the guys I sparred.
But after four rounds, What you find is that they're way more efficient than you, especially in the inside boxing, because we do not have inside boxing in MMA. Right, right.
So everything we do, it's the outside.
And when we're inside, we're clinching, you know?
joe rogan
That's a good point.
georges st-pierre
Boxers like in boxing are way more efficient than MMA because that's the biggest difference is the inside boxing.
So he's a wrestler and that's where things will get complicated.
joe rogan
But the thing is though that he can tie him up in a way that Jake Paul's never been tied up before.
georges st-pierre
Big gloves.
joe rogan
That's true, but still.
Clamp is a clamp.
The way that guy gets a hold of you.
He'll grab the back of your head, grab a hold of your arm.
He'll muscle him around in a way that he's going to feel very uncomfortable clenching with him.
georges st-pierre
That's right.
joe rogan
But can he do that and not get knocked out?
Can he do that and not get hit?
georges st-pierre
Can he do that without being fined?
I mean, you know, like McGregor, I think there were rules that he was fined if he did to Mayweather.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
I think the rules were, it says 5'10", 6'1", but that's not the big thing.
The height is not the big thing.
The big thing is the physical weight, lean weight.
See, I think, when you think about Ben Askren competing most of his career at 170 pounds, he's a small guy.
Like, even at 170, he's not like Kamaru Usman at 170. Like, Usman at 170 is fucking shredded and gigantic.
Or Douglas Lima is another guy, shredded and gigantic at 170. Ben is a smaller guy.
He carries body weight, like fat on him.
I think when Ben wrestled, what was Ben's when he was wrestling, when he was at the peak of his form as an amateur wrestler?
I think he was in, I don't remember, but I believe it was in the 160s.
unidentified
It says 170 also.
joe rogan
As a wrestler?
What does it say on Wikipedia?
unidentified
Wikipedia says he's 190. That's what he weighs now.
joe rogan
I don't know.
jamie vernon
It says 170, actually, but...
joe rogan
Well, yeah, that's what he competes at.
174 in college.
That's what he weighed?
74?
As a wrestler in college?
unidentified
Mm-hmm.
joe rogan
Really?
georges st-pierre
I just hope they don't get hurt, man.
I like to see these fights because it's the entertainment that it provides.
There is a story behind it and it's fun to watch because I'm a curious person.
I've got to watch it.
But I just hope they don't get humiliated or badly hurt because it will hurt me to watch it.
And then on both sides, you know?
joe rogan
I know what you're saying.
georges st-pierre
Yeah.
joe rogan
So what did Jake Paul weigh when he fought Nate Robinson?
189. That's not too bad.
So we're only dealing with about 20 pounds of difference.
It's not too bad.
The difference is power.
Jake has like real power.
He has real knockout power.
And he's got real speed.
Where again, Ben's body is designed to squeeze you and crush you and throw you around.
georges st-pierre
It's not dynamic.
It's isometric strength.
Squeezing.
And in boxing, there's no room for isometry.
It's all about dynamic.
And that's where Ben lacks.
joe rogan
It's going to be interesting.
It's going to be interesting.
Who knows?
Maybe he knows something we don't know.
But also, you have to take into consideration the fact that it's an enormous payday.
And maybe that's why he's willing to do this.
Because he said that the payday he's going to get from this Jake Paul fight would be bigger than any payday he's ever had in his career.
georges st-pierre
That's worth it then.
Good for him.
Good for him.
This is important.
You can assure a future for him and family.
This is important.
joe rogan
Good for him.
I'm curious to see how many other fighters decide to do this.
Like Anderson Silva is fighting Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. Do you know about that?
georges st-pierre
No!
joe rogan
Yes, that's a new fight that's been announced that makes me uncomfortable.
georges st-pierre
There is more and more.
I know, but he's not the same Julius Caesar Chavez Jr. that he was when he was in his prime, but he looked damn good.
joe rogan
He's a dangerous striker.
He's a good boxer.
He's not the cream of the crop.
He's not who his dad was.
His dad is one of my all-time favorite fighters.
georges st-pierre
Oh, okay, wait.
Junior.
joe rogan
Junior.
Junior's younger.
georges st-pierre
Oh, okay, that's not good.
joe rogan
Junior, I think, is only like 35. No, that's not good then.
georges st-pierre
That's not good for...
joe rogan
Junior's big.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, okay.
joe rogan
Junior's 175. He's a bigger fighter.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, that's not good.
I thought it was the dad.
No.
joe rogan
No.
That would be terrible.
georges st-pierre
That's rude.
unidentified
I thought it was good for Anderson.
georges st-pierre
I was like, what the hell?
He's going back to fight?
But I think this is bad because he's still active, right?
joe rogan
He's still active as of recently.
He quit.
He didn't quit, but he basically laid off the gas against Canelo a few years ago.
And most people were very upset at him for that fight because it looked like he was just trying to survive against Canelo Alvarez.
Canelo was just lighting him up.
And so that was, I think, at 160?
jamie vernon
Seniors fighting on the same card, FYI. No!
georges st-pierre
I knew!
I knew!
joe rogan
He's fighting Hector Camacho's son?
How old is Hector Camacho's son?
unidentified
I don't know.
jamie vernon
It doesn't sound either.
joe rogan
Joe, I knew I... Senior?
Oh, my God.
georges st-pierre
I knew I've seen it somewhere.
It was in the back of my mind, but I had the wrong person.
I knew I've seen it somewhere.
joe rogan
That's crazy.
georges st-pierre
But you know, Anderson always publicly says that he would have loved to fight Jon Jones.
I think it would be better because it would be like...
joe rogan
Roy Jones.
Roy Jones.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, Roy Jones.
Not John Jones.
Roy Jones, exactly.
It would be a good novelty fight for him.
This could be better.
joe rogan
When is this fight supposed to take place?
jamie vernon
June 19th in Mexico.
joe rogan
Let me be honest with you.
It depends on what they're going to let him do in terms of hormones.
That's the big factor here because Anderson, towards the end of his career in MMA, just was not the same guy.
From Chris Weidman on, he's not the same guy.
He got older and he lost a few steps.
From the second Weidman fight, so he lost to Chris Weidman.
Then the only fight that he won was one decision against Derrick Brunson.
He came very close in that fight with Michael Bisping.
That was a close fight, but every fight other than that, he lost all those fights.
I think it was like eight fights, which is crazy when you see how dominant he was when he was in his prime.
There's a thing where an athlete just reaches a point of no return where their body just does not respond.
His body didn't look the same anymore.
I mean, you look at the Anderson Silva that fought Yushin Okami.
You look at the Anderson Silva that fought Dan Henderson.
He was fucking jacked and shredded and he was so good, man.
Dana White sent me a text message the other day with a video of Anderson Silva when he fought Dan Henderson.
He goes, man, people forget how fucking good Anderson was when he was in his prime.
And I watched the video.
I didn't forget, but I kind of did.
I had to watch it again.
I was like, God damn!
georges st-pierre
It was amazing.
joe rogan
He was so good!
He was so good!
Anderson was so fucking good!
He had ESP. He knew what people were going to do before they did it.
And his reaction time was so fast.
But when it goes, it goes.
georges st-pierre
I think...
Like, we talk about GOAT sometimes.
I think Anderson Silva is there.
joe rogan
He's the GOAT. He's one of them, that's for sure.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, the people always remember your last performance.
I think Anderson is there.
I think, of course, Jon Jones.
Anderson is because he was so flamboyant.
Jon Jones, he faced the most adversity.
I think Stipe Miocic was there.
joe rogan
He's the GOAT. He just lost, people say, oh no, but I think he was the GOAT. Oh man, I mean, you think about it, he beat legends, he beat Alistair Overeem, Junior Dos Santos, he beat everybody.
georges st-pierre
You never fight the same fighter twice.
You might fight the same name twice, but every fight leaves a scar.
Could be for the best or for the worst.
And I think Khabib was there because he had the most dominated career that ever.
I don't know if he ever lost a round.
He might have, but he was so...
He was so incredible.
You have Dimitrius Johnson.
joe rogan
One of the greats too.
georges st-pierre
Maybe he's a goat.
He was all around.
He was amazing in his prime.
But now you keep fighting when you're not in your prime.
You kind of make people forget how good you were.
BJ Penn was there.
He was just the perfect fighter.
He was amazing.
You have, I think personally, Dominic Cruz too.
He had a time, his footwork was...
I really enjoyed watching him fight.
joe rogan
He was so innovative.
georges st-pierre
Conor McGregor too, because of his precision.
Royce Gracie.
There's many arguments to say why someone is their goal.
Then you have to It depends what it is for you.
Then after you have the performance and then seeing drugs and stuff, you have to weigh in the whole thing.
You know what I mean?
joe rogan
It's almost you can't say who the greatest of all time is, but there's some greatest of all times.
georges st-pierre
For their time.
joe rogan
One of the greatest of all time.
georges st-pierre
If we talk about who's the fighter nowadays that we...
All weight included, everything goes in a fight.
Who would you choose?
joe rogan
Francis?
georges st-pierre
Francis, yeah.
joe rogan
Right now?
georges st-pierre
Right now, yeah.
joe rogan
Who the fuck is going to fight him that's lighter than him?
georges st-pierre
However, I realized something.
I know a lot of young fighters might not think this way, but the way it is in this game is like that, I think.
For example, you have three guys that are on top.
This guy beat this guy, this guy beat this guy, this guy beat this guy.
It's just a matter of timing.
Fighting, it's about style.
It's about...
It's never forever.
joe rogan
Because Derek Lewis beat Francis by decision.
georges st-pierre
That's right.
joe rogan
So maybe he's the greatest, right?
So you have to look at it that way.
georges st-pierre
Perhaps one day it will be someone that will figure out, Francis, how to fight a guy like this.
joe rogan
Well, Derek Lewis is an interesting case because he's so big and he can take a tremendous punch and he can knock you out with one shot.
And he's the only guy in the heavyweight division that can knock Francis out with one shot.
He can knock anybody out.
The way he knocked out Curtis Blades, I think Derek can knock out any man alive.
He has that kind of power.
georges st-pierre
I agree.
However, what is his Achilles?
It's his wrestling.
joe rogan
The ground game, yes.
But he can tighten that up, and one of the things that he's tightened up is his endurance.
georges st-pierre
So you got, let's say we speculate.
joe rogan
Right.
georges st-pierre
I don't think so, but let's say we speculate.
Okay, you have Lewis beat Francis, Francis beat Mio Cic, but Mio Cic beat...
Lewis.
Who's the best?
joe rogan
But he didn't fight.
georges st-pierre
I know we just speculated, but that's how the world of fighting works.
joe rogan
But Cormier beat Lewis, and then Stipe beat Cormier twice.
georges st-pierre
I'm saying it's just speculation, you know, if it happened.
If you beat someone, that does not mean also you will beat him every time.
joe rogan
Right, like Matt Serra and you, right?
georges st-pierre
It's a question of odds.
It's maybe 9 out of 10, you will beat him, but that night.
That night, you zig when you should have zagged and...
Yes.
It's too late.
joe rogan
It's too late.
The thing about Francis that makes it so dangerous is you can't make any errors.
You can't make any errors.
Like, at any time, you can get hit with a bomb and then it's over.
And, like, the punch that he knocks Stipe out with, too, is short left hook.
Stipe's moving towards him.
He just...
Catches him with that short left hook.
georges st-pierre
We forget that Stipe has knockout power too.
joe rogan
Oh, fuck yeah.
georges st-pierre
And if you watch that fight, look at the end of the fight.
He missed with the right hand.
That was like two inches from the...
So it could have been dangerous.
joe rogan
He hit him.
He hit him with that right hand.
georges st-pierre
I remember I was doing the French commentator.
There's a right hand.
You watch the last part of that fight.
When it ends, there's a counter right, that straight right, that missed from Stipe.
joe rogan
I didn't think it missed.
I thought it landed.
georges st-pierre
No, no, no, it missed.
If it would have cut him, my friend, maybe we would have a different discussion.
But I'm just saying, sometimes fights...
The outcome could switch to one side to another.
It happens so fast.
You know what I mean?
joe rogan
Especially in heavyweights.
georges st-pierre
Yeah.
joe rogan
Because they hit so hard.
That's the thing.
You can't make too many errors in the heavyweight division.
But I also think that Francis had Stipe hurt in the first round bad and then knocked him down with that step forward jab in the second round.
He had him in big trouble already.
georges st-pierre
The problem I think Stipe did, he tried to repeat exactly, do a copy-paste of what he did in the first fight.
He thought Francis perhaps would come...
unidentified
Aggressive.
georges st-pierre
But Francis was smart.
He didn't burn himself.
So now Francis has improved as a fighter.
As scary as he is, he's improving.
joe rogan
The amount of time that he's been in martial arts is relatively limited.
You know, I mean, when he first fought for the title, he'd only been doing martial arts for about five years.
georges st-pierre
Yes.
joe rogan
So now it's eight years, but now also he's with a full camp, right?
He's now extreme couture in Vegas.
They're working with him on all the aspects of his game.
His takedown defense, like when Stipe shot for the takedown, Francis stuffed the takedown correctly.
georges st-pierre
Textbook.
joe rogan
Textbook.
georges st-pierre
With the head inside.
It was beautiful.
joe rogan
And then got behind him and hit him with those bombs.
So let's see the right hand.
georges st-pierre
Yes.
jamie vernon
I have to start doing it in slow-mo so you can see it.
joe rogan
Oh, sure.
It's right there.
Boom.
Oh, no.
That's reversed.
georges st-pierre
That's reversed.
At the end of the...
joe rogan
But this is before this.
jamie vernon
It is reversed.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's reversed.
georges st-pierre
That's right before.
joe rogan
But if you go before that...
jamie vernon
Well, he lands the one that you're talking about.
joe rogan
Let me see it.
Let me see it.
It's right here.
It's right here.
georges st-pierre
There's one that kind of missed at one point, but he's...
unidentified
It's that one.
joe rogan
Right here.
No, it's right before.
georges st-pierre
No, no, no, before.
joe rogan
Right before that.
georges st-pierre
And I remember because...
joe rogan
I remember specifically.
It's all reversed, but I still remember it very specifically.
See, when he's moving forward, it's because he's already hit him.
Can you go before that?
georges st-pierre
Yeah, it's the last sequence.
joe rogan
Right there.
Back up again?
georges st-pierre
No, even more.
Even more.
joe rogan
It doesn't matter.
Back up again.
Yeah, let's go here.
So this is a knock.
Let it play out from here.
So boom, boom, boom.
He hits him with these big punches.
He catches him with the uppercut.
georges st-pierre
That's it right there.
You see this one?
I said a right...
joe rogan
Let me see it again.
georges st-pierre
It was a straight left.
joe rogan
No, no, no, it wasn't.
This is reversed.
This is backwards, and the reason why it's backwards is so they don't get hit with copyright.
Because that punch that dropped him was not in real life a right hand, it was a left hand.
See, right there.
But he hit him a little bit.
georges st-pierre
It was on the top.
Imagine he hit with that.
Yeah, but you miss from one inches or you miss by two inches.
The gold, the home run is when you hit on the chin.
Imagine if he hit with that on the chin.
joe rogan
Let me see it.
georges st-pierre
He missed.
He missed a little bit, you see?
I don't know.
joe rogan
I think he punched him.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, but it's not at the right spot.
You have to punch in the point of the chin in the right spot.
joe rogan
I think he hit him on the cheek, though.
I think he hit him right in the face.
georges st-pierre
I think it sounded more on the forehead.
joe rogan
I don't know about that.
I think he hit him straight on the cheek.
Let's see it.
georges st-pierre
And he was coming forward.
joe rogan
Boom!
See?
He hit him right on the cheek.
I mean, it's not perfectly on the point of the chin, but you're right.
georges st-pierre
Imagine you catch that with the perfect timing on the point of sitting down like this.
joe rogan
He made him sit back.
He made him step back, but then Stipe came forward and then he caught him perfectly with the left hand.
georges st-pierre
It's just saying sometimes, and it happened...
The outcome of a fight can switch on a blink of an eye.
joe rogan
Especially in a crazy exchange like that.
georges st-pierre
I remember Volkov against Derek Lewis.
Volkov was winning the fight and Lewis, boom!
It was beautiful.
joe rogan
That was crazy.
georges st-pierre
But it's just to show that sometimes when you get confidence, it's great for a fighter.
But it's dangerous because there's nothing more dangerous for a fighter than success.
Success makes you weak, man.
Success makes you forget sometimes.
Then you're not...
You know what I mean?
It can be very dangerous.
And I love Francis.
I hope...
I want...
Francis is making his story, man.
He's the one that can...
He's an amazing fighter, an amazing human being.
And perhaps, maybe one day, they're going to go rumble in the jungle, Ali Foreman.
Do that in Africa.
That would be amazing.
He had that aura on him.
But man, I want him to stay successful and never forget that no matter how dangerous, how good you are, and especially in heavyweight, you're only at one...
You know who I would have loved to see?
joe rogan
Francis versus Fedor in his prime.
unidentified
Ooh!
georges st-pierre
That would have been good.
unidentified
Ooh!
georges st-pierre
Ooh!
Fedor was a very dangerous one too.
joe rogan
He was special.
georges st-pierre
Yes.
joe rogan
He was special.
georges st-pierre
But I think now, if you look at boxing, it's the same thing.
Look Tyson Fury, how big he is.
Francis, if I would go back in the gladiator time, he's the perfect human being, man.
I know!
joe rogan
Especially for the weight limit.
georges st-pierre
He's a specimen, man.
joe rogan
For 265, because Francis is a natural 275-pound guy.
He cuts a little bit of weight.
georges st-pierre
You cannot have a more perfect...
joe rogan
Impossible.
georges st-pierre
Athletic than Francis.
joe rogan
Tall, super strong.
Yes.
Muscular, but not too muscular.
It's like everything's perfect.
Ridiculous power.
georges st-pierre
Perfect human being to be a killing machine.
It's unbelievable.
Unbelievable.
You know what I mean?
joe rogan
Also, what...
Daniel Cormier said at the end of the fight, he said, strap a rocket to Francis' back because he's going to take off because he's got that Tyson-like aura where everyone's scared of fighting him.
He knocks everybody out.
When you see him knock a guy like Stipe out, who's the consensus greatest UFC heavyweight champion of all time.
Stipe defended the title more than anybody.
He won the title twice.
When you watch him fight, Stipe was the fucking man.
So Francis, when he knocks him out, so he takes the title from the greatest heavyweight champion of all time, knocks him out cold, and now he has this ability to transcend the sport.
He has this ability to become this gigantic superstar.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, he can change the game, and I'm very happy for him.
I just hope he stays focused, and man, you know, it's just amazing for him.
Like, if you know about his story, it's just incredible.
Like, it's very inspirational.
joe rogan
Yes.
Now, let me ask you this.
What do you think about what Jon Jones is saying?
Because Jon Jones...
Now, I am always on the side of I want fighters to get paid as much as possible.
And Jon Jones is saying...
georges st-pierre
Let me demystify this.
joe rogan
Please.
georges st-pierre
Is afraid?
Yes, Jon Jones is afraid of Francis.
And Francis is afraid of Jon Jones.
Because if they would not be afraid, that means they don't care.
Fighting, I'm sure it's important for them.
Success is important for them.
And when you put it all on the line, it's normal to be afraid.
However, it has nothing to do with the fight.
Are we gonna fight or not?
UFC used that as a tactic to make him accept the fight.
And they did that for me for years.
Being afraid or not being afraid, it's not like in the schoolyard, we're not like in the schoolyard when someone will run away.
If the price is good, even though he's afraid, and he should be afraid, he's a scary guy, he's about to fight.
You know, regardless of how we feel, He will do the job.
He will bite in his mouthpiece and do it.
I was afraid.
Personally, I can talk about myself.
I was afraid before every fight.
joe rogan
Which one made you most afraid?
unidentified
Every fight!
georges st-pierre
I can tell you which one made I was the least afraid.
joe rogan
Which one?
georges st-pierre
It was Matt Serra.
And I got knocked out.
Matt Serra is the only fight in my entire life.
And I'm saying life, I'm talking even about amateur competition when I was a kid in karate and wrestling.
It's the only fight that I had a good night of sleep the week before all the way through the fight.
I had it all figured out.
I didn't make those crazy scenarios in my mind.
I didn't rethink of it.
This idea of fighting, of losing, didn't hunt me.
It needs to be...
Fear, it's a good thing.
And people are like, oh, he's afraid.
It's stupid to say that because of course he's afraid.
And of course, I'm going to tell you the scoop.
I'm sure Francis is afraid too.
But it doesn't matter if they're afraid or not.
If the numbers is good...
Hopefully, they will fight, and this fight will make history.
And hopefully it happens.
I was afraid of every fight, but it does not matter.
Because as much as I'm afraid, I'm by no means a perfect man.
But one thing that I'm not, I'm not a coward.
And no matter who I'm fighting, and if the contract is good, everything is good.
I'm gonna go out there and I don't care about how I feel because it's subjectivity.
I only care about the objective.
What I need to do in order to take you out of your comfort zone.
And this needs to be done at all costs.
Me, myself, how I feel, if I'm sick or not, what the other people think, that does not exist.
The only thing that exists and matters is the objectivity, the things that you need to do to succeed.
And these need to be done at all costs.
That's how you should think when you have a fight coming up.
People, they don't know that because nobody can really rely to that because not everybody that is a fighter.
But I know, as a fighter, I can tell you for certain that I'm sure they are both afraid.
It's normal.
Every fight, you're kind of afraid.
You can be confident, but you always have this idea in the back of your mind that, man, if I mess up, I could lose everything, all my legacy and everything.
It's normal.
And you should feel this way.
Because if you don't feel this way, my friend, it's the end of your career.
And that's when you take the big dive and now it's loss after loss after loss after loss.
It's...
Hopefully they're both afraid.
Because we want to see a good fight.
And I want to see the best of both guys.
See who's the best man.
joe rogan
Yeah, well, Hickson said that as well.
You know, when people say, are you afraid?
He says, I'm always afraid.
He goes, if you tell me that someone's not afraid, I'm like, that's a crazy person.
georges st-pierre
Bro, it's because do you have a pride?
Are you a proud person?
You want to be knocked out in front of everybody?
Like, no, I'm a proud person.
I don't want to be knocked out.
I don't want to be humiliated.
I'm afraid, not like a kid in the school yard that I'm afraid I'm running.
I'm afraid to not perform at my best.
I'm afraid that I zig when I should have zagged.
And I used to seek the help of sports psychologists because of that.
Because when I was looking around, when I was competing...
Everybody is putting a mask on.
Everybody is saying like, oh, they use the word excited.
Hey, I'm excited.
And even the sports psychologist used to tell me, George, stop saying you're afraid.
You're excited.
That does not apply here.
Like, I know my English is not perfect, sir, but...
You know, my sports psychologist is American.
He was American.
He said, don't stop saying you're afraid.
I know you're afraid that you had the same experience with Matt Serra.
It repeats itself, but you're excited to fight.
I'm like, no, I'm not excited.
I'm not afraid to admit that I'm afraid.
I'm excited if I'm in Montreal when it's minus 20 degrees Celsius and I know I'm going next week on vacation to the beach in Miami.
I'm excited.
Or if I fasted for three days and I'm about to eat my favorite dish, I'm excited.
I'm not afraid to not knowing if I will perhaps be badly hurt, humiliated, or win the ultimate prize.
And there's no shame in that.
There's no shame in that.
And it does not matter on the result if the fight would happen or not.
Because even if they are afraid, which they should...
If the instager of the fight are made and are correct, this hopefully will happen and we will have a great show.
joe rogan
I don't think that's what's keeping them from fighting each other.
I don't believe that Jon Jones is afraid in terms of...
I think, for sure, there's a high level of anticipation.
There's going to be some worry when it comes to the fight.
There's going to be some nervousness, for sure.
But I don't think he's afraid in terms of that's why he's not fighting Francis because he's scared to fight Francis.
I think it's a negotiation issue.
georges st-pierre
Yes.
joe rogan
For sure.
But I think that...
He makes a lot of good points.
This is the biggest fight.
The fight, if Jon Jones fights Francis Ngannou, you have...
Jon, again, he's undefeated.
No one's beaten him.
georges st-pierre
He should retire.
He has nothing else to accomplish.
joe rogan
If he wants to.
georges st-pierre
Oh, man, it's amazing.
joe rogan
If he wants to, he can retire.
Jon's made millions of dollars.
I think if they do fight, it will be the biggest fight in the history of the sport.
And I also believe he needs to be paid accordingly.
georges st-pierre
100%.
And if he wins that, that's the thing why the UFC might think.
Think about the business side.
And we see that often happen.
Let's say he fights.
Every fight left that could happen can only downgrade him because everybody will expect him to win.
He's a victim of his own success.
joe rogan
Well, up until this fight.
Everybody expected him to win up until this fight.
georges st-pierre
No, no, exactly.
But if he wins that fight...
What's left for a rematch?
joe rogan
It depends on how he wins.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, but maybe the UFC is aware of that and they want to keep the ball rolling.
joe rogan
Is that what you think?
georges st-pierre
I think that's why the fight with Khabib and I did not happen.
And I think that's why a lot of fights do not happen because the UFC is a business, you know?
joe rogan
Well, I think with Khabib and you, the primary concern was that you were going to do what you did with the Bisping fight.
You fought Bisping, you won the title, and you're like...
Have your title back!
See ya!
georges st-pierre
Well, it's a little bit more complicated than that, but I got sick too.
I got ulcer colitis.
joe rogan
Yes.
We'll talk about that too.
Do you think that that was because of the amount of food that you were eating?
See, this is also parallels what Gordon Ryan is dealing with.
georges st-pierre
Oh, he told you.
Okay, I didn't know if he...
joe rogan
No, he's talked about it publicly.
georges st-pierre
He called me for this.
joe rogan
Well, Gordon has an issue because he's eating all the time to try to maintain his mass.
georges st-pierre
And Gordon, he gained a lot, a lot of weight.
joe rogan
A lot of weight, and he lifts weights constantly, and he's eating all day long.
You were in that same situation where you had to force yourself to eat, to put on the weight necessary to fight at 185 pounds.
georges st-pierre
I only gained 10 pounds.
Normally, like I am now, like I always been, I'm about 184 pounds, 185 pounds.
joe rogan
Walking around.
georges st-pierre
Walking around.
joe rogan
That's your natural weight.
georges st-pierre
Before the fight with Bisping, I went up to 195. It took me a few months, maybe two months to reach that because I was eating all the time.
joe rogan
Did you consult a nutritionist?
georges st-pierre
Yes.
joe rogan
How did you do it?
What did you do?
georges st-pierre
I consult a guy, but it's different in bodybuilding and in MMA. I was taking protein shake, too, on top of that.
And creatine, it's a food supplement that helps water retention.
And I told the guy, I said, I didn't like it because it's good for explosion, for dynamic thing.
However, when I grappled, I felt I was having cramp.
When I was doing like isometric tension, like squeezing, I was having cramp.
joe rogan
You think that was creatine?
georges st-pierre
I think that's what it was.
So I stopped it at first, but I kept eating.
And I got bigger.
I got 195. But that was a mistake, Joe.
I should never have done that because I believe there's a genetic component.
There's also because I believe it's the stress and the fact that I eat too much.
I developed a situation called ulcer colitis.
I had very severe cramps at the point that, man, it was blood and it was very, very bad, Joe.
I thought at one point I had maybe cancer.
It was very bad.
But that fight was postponed a few times and had so much drama around it.
I knew that if I asked to postpone it because I wanted to do a colonoscopy, and when you do a colonoscopy, they give you a laxative to empty you.
And I was trying to gain weight.
I was not trying to lose weight.
So I told myself, whatever it is, the fight is happening very soon.
I'm going to fight and I'm going to do the exam after.
So I did this.
I won the fight.
It was great.
Then I went to do the exam.
I found out I was diagnosed with ulcer colitis, which is a condition that you're stuck for life with.
So, I was on severe medication.
joe rogan
What kind of medication?
georges st-pierre
It's called Salofalc.
It's something you put inside of yourself.
joe rogan
In your ass?
georges st-pierre
Yes, every night before you go to bed.
What a way to go to bed.
It's a very strong anti-inflammatory for the intestine.
So I got better from it, but I see it more as like a bandage that you put on an injury.
Like I wanted to heal it at the core.
And I'm not a fan of medication.
I'm more a fan of not always look for the natural way of doing things.
So I investigate about fasting.
And I found out that through internet research that the best way to deal with this for a lot of people, it was through fasting.
And I met with Dr. Jason Fong, who convinced me to start fasting.
And I practice long-term fasting.
I go four times a year, up to three days water fast.
And I train during those three days.
And I supplement myself with Himalayan salt to make sure I don't deplete my minerals.
So I do that four times a year, and I do also time-restricted eating, like 16-8.
And days that I do not train, I only eat once a day.
And that's what I did.
And immediately when I started that, and I even went on a scan at McGill University.
A scan is very accurate to see the changes on my body because my biggest concern was to lose muscle.
So it turns out that I did two months after my bisping fight.
So it turns out that I lost 10 pounds, you know?
I didn't lose muscle mass.
I didn't lose bone density.
I lost a lot of water retention, a lot.
It was the biggest loss that I had and fat percentage.
So basically, overfeeding myself Gives me dead weight.
Because all the weight that I was carrying was not solid muscular weight.
It was like a bag that I carry on my shoulder.
So I would have probably be better just competing in my natural weight.
And perhaps I would not have had that...
Ulcer colitis problem because now I'm stuck with it.
I'm symptoms free, bro.
I'm symptoms free.
I cannot recommend fasting to any of the audience because everybody is different, right?
Everybody has different genetics and problems.
However, it's worth to investigate.
For me, I'm symptoms free.
It took a few months that I was symptoms free.
And I mix fasting, also I eat a lot of fermented food, collagen supplements.
There's different kinds of collagen, different spectrums, and there's certain spectrums that are good for your gut.
joe rogan
What fermented foods did you find helped you the most?
georges st-pierre
Kimchi and I make my own...
joe rogan
I love kimchi.
georges st-pierre
I make my own Jun.
I made it.
unidentified
Jun?
georges st-pierre
Jun.
It's like kombucha.
unidentified
Oh, okay.
georges st-pierre
You have a mushroom.
You put green tea with...
unidentified
Sugar?
georges st-pierre
Yeah, you let it infuse the green tea in water.
Then you take out the green tea pocket.
Then you put your...
Honey in it, inside you mix, and then you put the mushroom.
And the one that the mushroom used to be in, that's the one that you drink.
It looks disgusting, but that's how I get rid of it.
And it's an acquired taste.
After a while, you kind of loved it.
And it's very strong.
joe rogan
How is it different from kombucha?
georges st-pierre
I think the mushroom is different.
joe rogan
Can you spell it?
georges st-pierre
It's Jun.
G-U-N. Jun.
joe rogan
Like gun.
georges st-pierre
Gun, yeah.
I think in English it could be gun.
No, sorry.
J-U-N. My grandmother used to do that.
joe rogan
Here it is.
georges st-pierre
That's the one.
joe rogan
John Kombucha.
georges st-pierre
Actually, it could be the same.
joe rogan
It says, similar to kombucha, differing only in that its base ingredients are green tea and honey instead of black tea and cane sugar.
Oh, okay.
So it's brewed with the same...
Symbiotic culture of yeast and bacteria.
So it seems like it's the same mushroom.
Does it look like that in the center?
georges st-pierre
It is exactly like that.
joe rogan
Okay, I used to make my own mushroom or make my own kombucha.
georges st-pierre
It looks disgusting.
joe rogan
Oh, look at the difference.
georges st-pierre
And when I did it in the beginning, I was concerned because it looked so disgusting.
I'm like, am I going to get sick?
And yes, in the beginning when you first drink it, because you mix it with sparkling water, it makes you have kind of a...
A little bit of cramp because it's bacteria that you put inside of your stomach.
However, you get used to it.
And right now, I'm telling you the truth.
I might still have ulcer colitis, but I'm symptoms free.
joe rogan
But if you don't have symptoms, why would you have colitis?
Isn't it all about whether or not it's active?
georges st-pierre
It's inside of me.
It will be inside of me.
Forever?
Yes.
And I think the fact that I'm fasting, that's why I can drink and I can drink if I want to.
I can eat chocolate.
I can eat whatever I want.
It took me a few months to get symptoms free.
But I still have it.
Because sometimes you still feel it a little bit.
But very soon I'm very excited because I need to go back to the doctor to make another checkup and if Like, I mean, it's very unlikely.
I mean, it would defy science if I don't have it.
But if I do, it turns out that I don't have it, I would be like, oh, that's the blueprint to beat this.
Because the doctor told me I have it for the rest of my life.
joe rogan
Yeah, but isn't that also because most people don't fast the way you fast, and most people wouldn't be disciplined enough to do what you're doing with, even with intermittent fasting, as well as the three-day water fast.
Like, how many people do that?
Very few.
georges st-pierre
And it's not that hard.
It's not that hard.
joe rogan
When you tell that to people, the percentage of people that will actually go and do it are so small.
georges st-pierre
Joe, if you would have come up to me before I had ulcer colitis and talked to me about fasting, it would have come in my hair and go out, right?
Because I'm part of that society where we're bombarded by publicity or buy this, drink this, protein shake, this, this, that.
And I'm part of that culture too, so I was kind of brainwashed.
I was forced to try fasting because I was healed.
If I wouldn't not be healed, there is no way in the world you could have convinced me to that.
And that's what lead me to my other question.
Carnivore diet.
I want to try this.
joe rogan
You should try it.
georges st-pierre
Talk to me about it.
It sounds insane to me.
joe rogan
I only did it strictly for one month.
And during that month, I lost 13 pounds and I felt fucking great.
I had so much energy.
I got really lean and shredded.
georges st-pierre
Really?
joe rogan
Yeah.
Oh, my God.
And I had so much energy, but not just energy, mental energy, which is interesting.
But I only did it for a month.
I most of the time eat that way where I don't eat a lot of sugar, but I do love food.
I love to go to a restaurant and order pasta.
I love salad.
I like a delicious salad.
georges st-pierre
You're Italian, right?
joe rogan
Yes, I'm Italian.
But I like...
I love good food.
I love chef's creations.
I love sushi.
I like to go to a great sushi place.
So my problem is I enjoy the act of going to dinner and eating at a nice restaurant.
I like wine.
I like eating dessert.
I like all that stuff.
georges st-pierre
When you did it, did you supplement?
joe rogan
No.
Well, yes.
Vitamins.
Just vitamins.
But that's it.
georges st-pierre
Okay, okay.
But...
That's my question.
I traveled to Africa in Kenya.
I went to Maasai Maradu.
I did a safari.
I took my dad there.
And I met a tribe there.
They call them Maasai.
Very beautiful people, Joe.
And you should see they're shredded.
A lot of them...
joe rogan
They eat only meat.
georges st-pierre
Only meat, bro.
Like 90% meat.
They eat roots sometimes.
And how about the Eskimos?
Same thing, they eat fish.
joe rogan
How about the Comanche?
The Comanche Indians, who are the most fierce of all the tribes.
They actually roam this part of the world, in Texas.
They only ate buffalo.
That's all they ate.
georges st-pierre
However, I've been told that they don't eat the filet mignon.
They look for the organs.
joe rogan
The organs and fatty meats.
That's what they want, yeah.
georges st-pierre
So when you did your carnivore diet, did you eat organs as well?
joe rogan
Yeah, I ate a lot of liver.
I ate liver.
I even took supplements, like liver supplements.
There's a company called Heart and Soil, and they sell desiccated supplements like desiccated liver.
So it's dehydrated liver and heart and all these different things.
I took a lot of that stuff.
But mostly what I ate was wild game because I hunt, so I ate mostly elk.
georges st-pierre
Oh, it's very lean.
joe rogan
Very lean.
But I also ate bacon with that to sort of supplement to give myself fat.
And I eat ribeye steaks.
If I eat beef, I eat ribeye steaks.
If I eat buffalo, I also eat ribeyes.
georges st-pierre
When you say you eat ribeye and everything, did you always make sure that everything was grass-fed?
joe rogan
No, but I think that's better for you.
I do believe that's better for you, but I didn't.
I ate some corn-fed because it had more fat to it.
I think fat is the most important thing because you can't...
There's a thing called rabbit starvation.
Have you ever heard of that?
georges st-pierre
I'm not sure.
Perhaps.
joe rogan
Rabbits are so lean that if you eat only rabbits, you'll actually starve to death.
It's very dangerous because you don't have any fat.
You're not getting any fat out of your diet.
georges st-pierre
So you're going keto in a way.
joe rogan
It's not just keto.
Keto, you burn fat, right?
But with only 100% completely lean meat and nothing else, your body does not like that.
Your body wants fat for fuel.
There's a thing called gluconeogenesis that when you eat enough protein, your body converts that protein to glucose.
But when you need some fat, like fat is actually, you know, we're programmed to think that, oh, I want to eat low fat.
That's fucking terrible for you.
Low-fat is awful for you.
Low-fat stuff.
Lean meat is not bad, but you do need fat.
And fat is an important component for your diet, whether it's fat from avocado, fat from nuts and macadamia nuts, or whether it's a vegan fat or vegetarian fat, or whether it's fat from eggs.
People think that, oh, I want to eat all egg whites.
That's fucking terrible.
Yolk is where most of the nutrients are.
Yolks are good for you.
georges st-pierre
And when you say carnivore diet, do you eat fish as well?
joe rogan
Yes.
Just animal protein.
Fish, eggs, meat.
And I did it for an entire month.
And I'm telling you, I felt really good.
georges st-pierre
But you need to be crazy disciplined.
I did my DNA test.
I'm part Italian.
I'm like 15%.
I don't know why, but that's perhaps why I love to eat a lot of pasta and stuff like that.
joe rogan
Well, it's just It's delicious.
georges st-pierre
I don't think I can sustain that for one month, but I want to give it...
joe rogan
Oh, you could do it for a month.
I'm sure you could do it for a month.
georges st-pierre
No chocolate, nothing.
joe rogan
Man, it sucks.
The entire month, you know what I did?
unidentified
It sucks.
joe rogan
I had a couple of pieces of chili mango.
One of my favorite desserts is chili mango.
You ever have that Mexican treat?
It's like a dried mango with chili powder on it.
Oh, it's so good.
It's one of my favorite cheat meals.
It's chili mango.
I love it.
georges st-pierre
Joe, I don't think I have your discipline.
joe rogan
Oh, you fucking...
Of course you did.
georges st-pierre
I might do it for a week, not for a month.
joe rogan
Come on, man.
unidentified
You could do it.
georges st-pierre
Did you take a picture before or after or went in a scan?
joe rogan
Well, I was lucky that I was pretty fat before I did it.
I'd gotten to like 205 pounds and I just had gotten like a lot of like side fat and my stomach was bloated.
I was eating so much pasta.
That's my problem is I fucking love pasta.
And pasta makes me like I get a belly.
georges st-pierre
I love pasta.
joe rogan
Pasta and beer make my fucking stomach fat.
I'm a glutton man.
When I eat, I eat well past the point where I'm satisfied.
I just gorge myself.
georges st-pierre
But don't you think that's how we're supposed to be?
If you look at Untergetter, Food was scared.
And they didn't have food.
They didn't know when it was the last time they could eat.
So they used to feed as much as they can, then wait for the next one, right?
joe rogan
I think that's how we should do.
It's a good excuse.
But the reality is, I'm a glutton.
I'm a glutton.
I am.
I really am.
Like, yesterday, I had an ice cream sundae.
My kids wanted to get ice cream.
We got some ice cream.
And then I was like, come on, fucking ice cream sundae.
And I ate so much, I felt disgusting afterwards.
But while I was eating, I was like...
I have gluttonous instincts when it comes to food.
I always overeat.
georges st-pierre
Bro, it's a pleasure of life and, you know, I wouldn't be fully happy if I cannot enjoy it, you know?
And I think the fact that I'm fasting made me able to enjoy it.
joe rogan
Yes!
You've paid the price.
unidentified
Yeah!
joe rogan
Yes, yes.
georges st-pierre
Like sleeping or eating.
joe rogan
Well, that's why I never stuck with the carnivore diet.
It's because I enjoy all kinds of food.
I am a fan of culinary arts.
Like, I'm not much of a cook.
I can cook meat.
I'm good at that.
And I can cook some pasta dishes and a couple other things.
But I love chefs.
I love...
I respect the art form.
I was good friends with Anthony Bourdain and I learned a lot from him.
And I just...
I learned a lot, first of all, before I ever met him, watching his program, but I love watching people cook.
I love television shows on cooking.
I love talking to chefs.
They're some of my favorite people to talk to.
I think they create a temporary art.
That's what that is.
It's an art form that you take in with your mouth, with your...
Your smells and just looking at it.
I love food.
I just love it.
georges st-pierre
We forget sometimes how much we're spoiled today.
joe rogan
True.
georges st-pierre
I'm just thinking about, you go back 13,000 years ago, man.
I was in L.A. right before I came here.
I went to La Brea Tarp.
Man.
joe rogan
Yeah, crazy, right?
georges st-pierre
Imagine when you kill an animal you have to eat and you eat the bone marrow, you eat everything.
You need to eat it fast because there is other predatory animals like Slimodon.
And man, it's just a scary thing.
And ice ages.
Forget about the nice jacket that we have.
Forget about Montreal.
How cold is Montreal?
Go to an ice age, man.
When you have like saber-toothed cat like running after you.
Holy shoot!
joe rogan
It's like...
georges st-pierre
Man, our ancestors are incredibly tough.
We're spoiled as hell.
joe rogan
The fact that human beings made it to 2021 with these soft bodies.
We're so soft.
Just compared to dogs.
You ever see dogs fight with each other?
They bite each other.
Nothing happens to them.
They got little tiny holes in them.
If a dog bit me, my arm would be fucked.
It would be torn apart.
We're so weak compared to most animals.
georges st-pierre
Where are we going with our society?
I think we're gonna lose muscle.
AI will take...
I was asking Lex Freeman because I was concerned.
I asked him, I said, what do you think about AI? Do you think it could be a threat?
Because I hear...
Elon Musk on your podcast.
joe rogan
He's terrified of it.
georges st-pierre
He's terrified.
joe rogan
So is Sam Harris.
Sam Harris is also equally fearful of the potential downsides and two of the most brilliant people that I know.
georges st-pierre
I'm afraid that in a way that AI could be a good thing for humans, for the development of humans.
However, in order to keep us safe, we need to eliminate us.
Because for our...
Little monkey brain plan, you and me, or, you know, like us as humans, who might think of doing certain things is the greater things for the greater of the humanity.
But maybe it's not, you know?
And if you have a superior intelligence that controls, you know what I mean?
They will protect us against ourselves, and the only way to do that is by eliminating some of the human.
I don't know.
Look what we do to the planet, man.
It's crazy.
Sometimes it makes me scare us.
joe rogan
Well, I think what we are is an imperfect creature, right?
So if you went back to ancient primates, Australopithecus or any of the ancient primates, and you said to them, one day you're not going to have any hair on your body or very little hair, And you're going to have to wear clothes everywhere.
And your feet are going to be so soft, you're going to have to wear shoes.
And then you're going to be protected because you can't live outside because your body is too weak.
So you're going to be protected by structures.
And you're not going to hunt anymore.
You're just going to go to a store.
And because of that, you're going to eat whatever you want.
So you're going to get fat.
And you're going to be really lazy because you can be lazy.
And society is going to protect you.
So it's going to give you all this food and resources.
and they're going to protect you and make you softer and softer and more dependent upon these systems that really don't give a shit about you.
They need massive amounts of people in order to give the resources so that they can keep these structures intact, whether it's government or political structures or society, and they're going to try to make men as toxic.
They're going to look at the idea of masculinity as being the most dangerous thing, and aggression as the most dangerous thing.
All the things that made human beings what we are today.
Men had to be strong.
We needed to conquer.
And we needed to fight off other conquerors that were trying to take over our land.
And we needed to be able to fight off predators.
Well, that's not necessary anymore.
So all those male instincts are going to be shunned and looked at as the worst possible part of our society and our culture.
Which is the only thing that really got us to where we are today.
georges st-pierre
I think if you say that to that Australopithecus, you will find it absurd.
joe rogan
Yes.
georges st-pierre
And you will not...
Be willing to go towards that direction.
So that's what I'm saying about AI. Perhaps we don't know what is the best thing for us.
joe rogan
I believe that AI, let's forget about artificial intelligence or AI, it's a term.
I think technology.
Is impossible to avoid at this stage of human evolution.
And I think most likely we are going to integrate with it.
And what Elon Musk is trying to do with Neuralink, are you aware of Neuralink?
georges st-pierre
Yeah, I've heard about what he...
Not too much, but I'm not educated like you, Elon Musk, but I've heard about what he's saying about it.
joe rogan
Hilarious, he put me and Elon Musk in the same sentence.
The concept is that there's going to be an invention that increases the bandwidth.
Now, first, it's going to be used for people that have...
Neurological disorders and injuries and spinal cord injuries and it's going to try to bridge the gap between the person's injury and their potential as a person.
They're going to be able to figure out a way to allow them to utilize their body in a way that they couldn't use it before because of the injury.
But then eventually it's going to be something once they become more proficient, once they get better at this technology, once this technology innovates sufficiently and gets more and more advanced, they're going to get to a point where it's going to be something that normal people use because it's going to increase the bandwidth between human beings and information and also increase the physical capability of the body.
And then with CRISPR, CRISPR is a technology that allows gene editing.
With that and with these integrated technologies like Neuralink and whatever comes after Neuralink, Neuralink is just one.
Like, you know, like the Morse code was one method of communication that existed a couple hundred years ago.
And then now it's a joke in comparison to what we have today.
Well, you take Neuralink and you go a couple hundred years from now, what kind of...
Symbiotic technologies we're going to have.
It's going to be nuts.
georges st-pierre
It's like having a cell phone connected directly to your brain, right?
Or Google even more.
joe rogan
Much, much more advanced.
This is the first step.
It's going to be godlike.
Human beings are going to have...
I think when you look at aliens, like when you think of the...
Archetypal alien, the archetype alien where they have these iconic images of this large head, little tiny bodies where they have no muscle.
That's going to be us.
I think what we're seeing when we see those things, if they are real, if people are experiencing those things, I think that's probably us in the future.
Or, if not us...
Some beings from other galaxies or other planets or other parts of the universe, other solar systems.
That's probably what happens if your civilization stays intact and you reach a thousand years from now, a million years from now, from where we are.
If they're similar to us in their developmental cycle, I think that's where we're going.
georges st-pierre
Your brain, you lose, your skin became pale.
joe rogan
Yeah, if you look at us, Compared to chimps, right?
georges st-pierre
That makes sense.
joe rogan
Chimps have smaller brains and bigger muscles.
Well, as they get further and further advanced, the head gets larger, the body gets softer.
And then you get further and further advanced from that.
You get to the point where the muscles are just almost non-existent.
And you just like these stick-like bodies and these enormous heads.
Because your brain...
And this is assuming, right, that these are biological entities in the first place.
Like maybe there's some sort of a combination of biology and intelligence.
Or artificial intelligence and technology to the point where they don't even reproduce with sex.
Like the thing that people always say about these...
No genitals.
Yeah, they have no genitals.
And their mouth doesn't even need to move around because they probably communicate telepathically.
And one of the things that Elon said when I talked to him about Neuralink, he said, you're not going to need to talk to communicate.
You're going to be able to talk through your mind.
You're going to be able to express.
And so that's what they always say about these alien beings.
georges st-pierre
That's going to be very hard to do because if we say a word, for example, mother.
Maybe mother for you is someone that took good care of you and everything.
But for another person, mother is someone who beat...
joe rogan
Right, but you're thinking about it in terms of the meaning that you attach to a word.
What you're going to be able to do is convey intent.
You're going to be able to convey thoughts and concepts which will be universally recognized without the use of language.
So, the problem we're thinking of is, like, the word, like, if you use Russian, the Russian word for a stove is different than a German word for a stove, which is different than a Japanese word.
It's all, like, it's hard.
That's one of the things about when people translate, and you know this better than anybody, because you speak multiple languages.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
When you translate something from French to English, it's difficult finding the appropriate word.
Well, I think we're going to be able to convey thoughts.
unidentified
Whew!
joe rogan
Without use of language.
And so it'll be more universal.
georges st-pierre
Wow.
joe rogan
This is one of the things that they say, people that have been abducted.
I had Travis Walton, this guy.
georges st-pierre
I've seen, I've seen, I've watched it.
joe rogan
This bobblehead.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, I've watched it.
joe rogan
He's very compelling in his descriptions of his encounter with these beings.
But one of the things that he was saying was they were talking to him, but it wasn't with words.
Like, they were communicating with him, and he understood what they were saying, but it wasn't, they weren't saying things.
You know, like, hey, Travis, why don't you relax?
Because we're here from planet fucking whatever it is.
georges st-pierre
The information was flowing faster because it was like, boom, right away, what I think, you get it.
joe rogan
Yes.
They were explaining things to him in some sort of a telepathic way.
unidentified
Wow.
joe rogan
And it was mind-blowing to him.
And I think that that's probably the future of communication.
Just like you can transmit information from phone to phone, right?
You can call people.
They're nowhere near you but you can talk to them.
You can send a video to someone.
It's going through the air.
It's just data, right?
It's just information.
georges st-pierre
Do you think Travis and Bob Lazar and all these guys that have extraordinary claim believe what they are telling you?
I don't know if what they believe is true, but do you think they believe what they are telling you in a way that they're not lying, they're telling the truth of what they're believing?
joe rogan
I can't tell for certain, but I believe Bob Lazar.
I believe what he's saying is true.
I believe he's telling me.
Now, Bob, he had one moment where he was passing by a window and he said he saw something that was small and these people were standing over it and he didn't know if it was an alien or whether it was some sort of a...
Form that they were trying like a doll or something that's supposed to represent the size of an alien or some sort of a model of an alien But he remembers he looked briefly through a window and he saw something small.
He didn't see it move around didn't see it talk So he doesn't know what he saw because in his world as he explained it When he was working at Area 51 Site 4, that's where he worked, he said that it was very compartmentalized.
And he's saying it was one of the problems with them trying to figure out...
Now, this is assuming he's telling the truth.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, of course.
joe rogan
One of the problems they were trying to figure out was how to back engineer these devices, these ships.
But the problem was they weren't allowed to communicate with other people outside of this very limited group of people that had access to these vehicles.
And the people that were involved in the metallurgy were not allowed to communicate with the people that were involved in whatever the propulsion system was.
They didn't understand what they were trying to decipher these things.
But he said, and if you listen to the podcast that I did with him, that it didn't work because the scientific method requires multiple people to communicate and share ideas and explain – And they didn't do that.
georges st-pierre
You can't improve like that.
You need to share ideas.
You can't do something and compartmentalize everything.
joe rogan
But my communication with him, again, I don't know if he was telling me the truth, but he didn't seem deceptive.
And he's a brilliant guy.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, he's clearly a borderline genius.
You hear him speak, he's very educated.
joe rogan
And some of the things that he talked about came to fruition.
One of the things was...
There was a concept of this thing called element 115. That was not really proven until the 2000s.
Somewhere in the 2000s, they used a particle collider and created this thing where it was a very unstable, very short-lived particle.
But he was saying that wherever these beings are from, they have figured out a way to utilize a stable version of this element 115 and that's how they propel themselves.
The things that he was describing Were also exactly the same things that were experienced by Commander David Fravor, who was a guy who was a jet pilot.
georges st-pierre
I saw, yeah.
joe rogan
Yeah, and so he experienced this thing move in that same direction, that same way, where there was no visible propulsion system, but they tracked this thing going from 80,000 feet above sea level to one in one second.
So that's the amount of time that it takes radar to track this.
So it might have been less than a second.
This thing traveled from 80,000 feet to 1,000.
georges st-pierre
No time.
joe rogan
To one feet.
georges st-pierre
It's like that thing with the hand.
It says you measure the distance between the bone and the...
When you get in, you put your hand in it and measure the distance between your bone and the...
joe rogan
Oh, the scanner.
Yes.
georges st-pierre
There is a lot of things like this.
Zacharias Sitchin was...
There's a lot of stuff that you can think of that how could they know that at the time?
But it's...
Man, it's...
joe rogan
Well, the Zacharias Sitchin stuff is interesting, right?
That's all the Sumerian text.
The Sumerian text is some fascinating stuff because it's all from 6,000 years ago.
And by the way, Zacharias Hitchin, he's very controversial.
There's even a website called SitchinIsWrong.com, and it's basically scholars of ancient Sumerian who say that his translations are completely off.
But even if his translations are off, there's still a lot of really confusing stuff about ancient Sumer.
And one of the things is their depictions of the solar system.
They had a depiction of the solar system 6,000 years ago that shows the sun in the center, and it shows all of the known planets in the outside, and they're relatively accurate in terms of the size.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, and how about the formation of the Earth?
Tiamat, Marduk, I don't remember which one is what, but that's...
joe rogan
Yeah, the formation of the Earth.
georges st-pierre
That's the model that we use today.
joe rogan
Well, the scientists...
georges st-pierre
The asteroid belt, like, that's the model that we use today.
How did they know that at that time?
joe rogan
I don't know how they knew that.
When you're saying it's Earth 1 and Earth 2, and what that means is that there was an original version of Earth, and then Earth was hit by another planet at some point in the distant, distant past.
And that's what created the moon, and that's also what created the asteroid belt.
georges st-pierre
That goes on the different direction than the rest of the planet.
Like, they knew that too.
joe rogan
Well, there's also a thing called Bode's Law, and Bode's Law measures the distance between planets, and it's based on the mass of the planet.
And they figure out, because of the mass of the planet, how far these planets are from each other.
And one of the things that fucks that up is the asteroid belt.
I might be wrong about this, but the distance between Mars and Jupiter is one of the things that screws that up.
And they think that's explained by the asteroid belt, that some collision created this asteroid belt and created all of the...
I mean, there's something like 900,000 known near-Earth objects that were created by the impact of these planets.
georges st-pierre
One thing I believe And I'm sure it's the same because you had a lot of these guys on your podcast, Graham Hancock, Randall Carson, John Anthony West.
There is clearly knowledge that we've lost in the past.
This is for sure.
Just think about the Library of Alexandria.
Man, imagine the knowledge that it wasn't there before it burned.
joe rogan
I know.
Imagine.
georges st-pierre
Imagine.
People think we lost like one millennia, like just when it burns, of knowledge, you know, medicine, botany, science.
It's just crazy to think of.
So very often, sometimes when crazy stuff happens like that, I just think that perhaps they have knowledge that That there's knowledge that we lost.
Just think about the Greek fire.
It's a weapon that was used in the naval battle.
And it's really, really known about historians.
You can research.
They still don't know exactly how it works, but it was so destructive.
It was like, at the time, it was like a secret weapon.
Like, they didn't want to share.
And it was known to be very efficient in naval battle.
joe rogan
I don't know what that is.
I don't know about Greek fire.
georges st-pierre
Greek fire.
If you go to Greek fire, you'll get it, boom.
It was used in naval battles.
They used to throw fire, flames.
People that are burning, they still burn in the water.
So they think it was made with some kinds of petrol or...
They still don't know.
They cannot recreate it.
And it's clearly something that a lot of historians have talked about.
It's called Greek fire.
It's just an example that it's clear that it's a technology that we have lost.
joe rogan
Well, if you just look at the pyramids, the pyramids are a perfect example of technology loss.
It's almost like the best example.
Those ancient civilizations almost letting everyone know, hey, there is information that we have that's so above and beyond what's expected of people from this era.
Because if you think about people that lived 2,500 B.C., You don't think about someone that had the kind of proficiency to create something that...
People don't understand.
It's not just that the pyramids were big, but they were so perfectly designed that when they put all the stones, they reached the top.
If anyone was off by even a half an inch at the bottom, as time went on, an inch here, an inch there, by the time they got to the top, it would be all fucked up.
It wouldn't be perfect.
But the pyramids were so amazingly perfect, and they were originally covered in smooth limestone.
So smooth, polished limestone that would probably be insane to look at if you were staring at it from a distance.
Like this immense structure of 2,300,000 stones, some of them cut from quarries hundreds of miles away, all perfectly aligned and put together by these people that lived thousands and thousands of years ago.
georges st-pierre
You know, most scholars would say that they use a ramp, but if you think about it, like, there's other scholars that would counter that by saying the construction of that ramp needs to be in an angle that it could be so difficult to do that it will challenge the construction of the pyramid itself, you know?
joe rogan
Again, it's like, maybe they use a ramp.
I don't know what they use.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, we don't know, yeah.
joe rogan
But whatever they used, it's so amazingly precise that they were able to make this 2,300,000 stone structure.
Still to this day, I haven't been, but I have friends that have gone, like my friend Andrew Schultz just went.
Danica Patrick, the race car driver, she told me she just went.
People that I know that have been, my friend Eddie Bravo, when he went, you get to it, you're like, what the fuck?!
It's so big, apparently.
georges st-pierre
It's like an awakening.
unidentified
Yes.
joe rogan
That our idea of what it is, when you see it in a photograph, it looks incredible.
But I guess I need to go.
Because I guess when you see it in person, it's just like a complete reset.
It recalibrates what people are capable of.
Because you have to think, like, man, this is 4,500 years old.
georges st-pierre
It's amazing.
Think about Darren Cuiou, Gobekli Tepe.
joe rogan
Yes!
georges st-pierre
And man, it's...
The thing that happened...
joe rogan
10,000 years older, right?
georges st-pierre
Yeah, it's like 12,000 years old, you know?
At least.
joe rogan
At least.
georges st-pierre
Like, how do you conceive that?
And sometimes what happens is it gets, you know, infected by other civilizations that pass there after that construction.
So they think they are the one that built it.
I think it's...
Pumapunku.
There's clearly two different technologies.
You see the stones are perfectly cut.
Then you have other stones that are just on top.
It's like a butcher's job.
And It's clearly not the same technology, the same people that built these two layers.
joe rogan
Right.
Well, that was also John Anthony West's concept of Egypt, that there's multiple eras, and that if you go deeper, like some of the stuff that they found when they dig deeper in the sand was a different construction method.
It looked different.
Different designs, but still equally complex and fascinating.
It's like there's probably many eras of human civilization, and there's probably been...
Whatever it is, whether it's disease or some sort of a natural disaster or something that happened.
Asteroidal impact was John Anthony or was Randall Carlson's and Graham Hancock's.
That's their theory.
georges st-pierre
12,000 years ago at the end of the Pleistocene era.
Homo sapiens date to 3,000 years old.
How many?
3,000.
joe rogan
No, no.
Homo sapiens.
georges st-pierre
Homo sapiens, 3,000.
joe rogan
I think it's older than that.
I think it's several hundred thousand.
georges st-pierre
300,000.
unidentified
Sorry, my English.
georges st-pierre
Homo sapiens is 300,000 in Morocco.
I'm 100% sure.
That's why I read about this kind of stuff.
joe rogan
I think they think it's somewhere in that neighborhood.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, but if you take that 300,000 times for an evolution, why would it be only in the last...
Twelve, ten thousand years that we would, you know...
joe rogan
Invent such immense structures.
georges st-pierre
It's kind of strange.
It doesn't make sense to me.
joe rogan
Well, it's also we're so different from all the other animals.
Like, we're the only animal that wears shoes.
We're the only animal that wears clothes.
We're the only animal that really manipulates its environment the way we do.
I mean, other animals think, you know, bees make beehives and shit like that, but they don't...
Do anything remotely interesting in comparison to what we're capable of doing and what we have done for thousands and thousands of years.
And why?
You know, one of the things that Bob Lazar said that he was taught when he was at Area 51-S4 was that one of the things that they were telling him was that human beings are the product of accelerated evolution and that these creatures occasionally come back to check upon our progress.
Yeah, which is crazy.
But that might be how it works throughout the universe, is that these beings that are very far advanced, they come back and they see these creatures that are pretty close and they give them a little boost.
They push them ahead a little bit.
Because otherwise it would take so long.
And maybe we don't have them out of time because of the fact that we're in this...
Fucking shooting gallery of asteroids, that these things come down and whatever progress you make is wiped out by impacts or by super volcanoes.
georges st-pierre
It's crazy, but it's not that crazy.
If you look at the belief of human beings through evolution, you know, like in ancient Greek, they believe in different, they were believing in different gods, like in different times, different civilization had different beliefs.
Now, some people believe Jesus walked on water, you know, which is fine too.
That's their belief, you know.
If you believe that human was the result of alien beings, it's another belief.
Everybody believes in different things.
joe rogan
It's not that crazy if you think about what we're doing.
They just landed a helicopter on Mars.
Like, yesterday.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, it was recently, yeah.
joe rogan
Yeah, so we're doing weird shit by sending things to other planets, and they roam around and take photographs and send it back to us, and we watch these high-resolution images from the surface of Mars.
This is just within the last, you know...
Less than a hundred years we're capable of doing this.
Who knows what's going to happen in a few thousand years?
So if human beings stay alive and the Earth stays in one piece for a few thousand years and then we're sending things out to various planets and maybe that's what these beings are.
Maybe these beings are these artificial intelligent robots that other intelligent entities have constructed and send out to the galaxy.
georges st-pierre
I'm gonna tell you something in the future because now we know there is more and more planets that are finding the Goldilocks zone, right?
That could potentially be habitable.
Man, I'm sure if in the future human beings we find another civilization in one of those planets, we'll mess up with their genetic material.
100%.
joe rogan
If we found some monkey in the jungle and we said, listen, we'll keep most of them by the way they are.
We'll take a few of them.
We'll pull them aside and run some tests on them.
But we take monkeys and we do experiments on them where we see if things are toxic.
They try medicine on monkeys.
They use makeup.
They try makeup on monkeys to see if it's bad for them.
They do all kinds of horrible experiments with monkeys, and they've done it forever to see cancer drugs and all sorts of other things that are effective or toxic.
georges st-pierre
Some scientists are talking now that they think some of the monkeys have reached Stone Age.
They use tools to fish and it's crazy.
joe rogan
Yes, that's true, right?
They think some primates have entered the sun age.
georges st-pierre
They enter the Homo habilis part.
Habilis is when they use tools.
That's kind of crazy.
Like Homo habilis a little bit.
It's kind of nuts to think of that.
joe rogan
It is interesting when you think of the possibility.
It doesn't end here.
It doesn't end with us.
It's not like we're the perfect being and this is as advanced as things get.
We know that we are far more advanced technologically than things that we're aware of historically that we can for sure prove existed because we can watch videos of them.
We can watch videos of people that lived in the 1920s.
So we look at the way they lived.
We look at the historical record of medical experiments and medical treatments that they did on people that were just 100, 200 years ago where they wrote things down.
We know exactly what people knew then as opposed to what they knew now.
Shit, if we just go back to 1950...
The comparison to people, what they did in terms of medicine and medical technology, it's so advanced now.
And this is 70 years later.
It's not that long.
georges st-pierre
The progress goes exponentially.
I'm wondering, and we talk about perhaps the possibility of lost civilization.
How advanced were they?
Is that possible that they reached Mars and they're the one that left pyramids there?
Who knows?
In a crazy world, you never know.
joe rogan
Well, if we were wiped out except for a few thousand people, and that few thousand people lived like cave people, lived like savages, and they made their way through the eras and eventually reinvented all the things that we have today, but there was no record left of what we have.
Have you ever seen some of those...
Photographs of places that were abandoned, and not that long ago in Russia.
Like, you know, places that were abandoned just a few decades ago.
georges st-pierre
Chernobyl, right?
joe rogan
Chernobyl's a good advance.
georges st-pierre
Nature take over.
They destroy everything.
joe rogan
Yeah.
A thousand years from now, there wouldn't be shit left.
Except things like Gobekli Tepe.
Stone structures.
georges st-pierre
I had the chance to go on site for paleontology and ask some geologists.
joe rogan
Where'd you go?
georges st-pierre
I went to many places.
I went to Argentina, Patagonia, Alberta, Canada.
I went to Dakota.
Many places.
I want to go in North Africa soon because...
There were very interesting life there back in the Cretaceous.
joe rogan
North Africa, like Egypt?
Yeah, yeah.
georges st-pierre
Egypt, Morocco, and various places.
They're finding new fossils now.
It was probably one of the most dangerous places where they had like super predator.
The niche for super predator was amazing.
But what I was going to say.
So yeah, I asked them.
I said, how about a city like New York?
How much time would it take to be destroyed by nature if an apocalypse happened?
And it doesn't take that long.
joe rogan
A thousand years?
georges st-pierre
Yes!
It doesn't take that long.
Like, they say a thousand years.
That's the answer they gave me.
And they say to me that the things that will stay the longest is the structures that are built in rock.
joe rogan
Yeah.
unidentified
Yes.
georges st-pierre
Because the structure that will...
How do you say?
The water will mix with the metal and it will...
joe rogan
Corrode.
georges st-pierre
Corrode and everything.
So all the building that we see...
Let's say there is like the ice sheet melt...
Or a comet hit Antarctica and there is like a big ocean rise...
This can all go away in a blink of an eye, my friend.
That's a scary thing.
joe rogan
It is.
It's pretty scary.
It'd be nothing but the foundations.
georges st-pierre
Yes, and that's what Randall Carson talks about, right?
He talks about the rapid rise of the ocean, which is maybe something that has happened in the past, and that's why perhaps we've lost everything.
We're so dependent on cell phones and things.
I don't know how to live as an hunter-gatherer anymore.
joe rogan
No, most people don't.
georges st-pierre
We will die, man.
We will die.
If we lose our technology, how would we survive?
joe rogan
Most people won't survive.
Most people won't survive if we lose our technology.
But some will, and they'll relearn things.
And that's what Randall thought of.
And that's the Younger Dryas impact theory.
That's what that is.
georges st-pierre
And that means we will become the myth, the folklore of people who have technology.
joe rogan
We'll be Atlantis.
We'll be the theory of Atlantis.
georges st-pierre
Maybe that's what happened.
I don't know.
It's possible.
We live in a very interesting time.
We live in a very interesting time that we found out more and more about those things.
joe rogan
Well, you see how what happened just with coronavirus, just with the pandemic where civilization sort of crumbles.
Partially.
I mean, things fall apart.
In Los Angeles, you drive down the road, you see buildings boarded up.
All these places that used to have thriving businesses are gone.
Restaurants are gone.
Tents are everywhere.
People living on the street.
It's crazy.
And that's just a very...
In terms of the way diseases have impacted our culture, that's a small disease.
It's a disease that only kills a small percentage of people.
georges st-pierre
Think of the Black Plague.
Ebola.
joe rogan
Yellow Fever.
georges st-pierre
Oh my god.
The Black Plague.
One third of Europe.
joe rogan
Dead.
And lasted a long fucking time too.
Kill people for a long time.
georges st-pierre
I think they thought it was because of their sins.
They found out after it was because of the rat that carries the...
Mites.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's crazy.
georges st-pierre
You know, our ignorance sometimes take away our ability to evolve, right?
joe rogan
Well, I think we are clearly in an adolescent stage of learning and growing.
And as much as we know now in comparison to what we knew a hundred years ago or a thousand years ago, we're just learning.
We're just beginning.
And it's...
We're also in this very volatile environment in Earth.
We're ruining the planet, so we're polluting it.
We're filling the atmosphere with all sorts of chemicals and bullshit, and we're fucking up the ocean and dumping chemicals in the rivers and streams, and we're pulling all the fish out of the ocean.
It's chaos, and we've got to right the ship.
Just even if nothing hits us, just even if we don't have a...
Yellowstone has thousands of earthquakes every year.
There's a massive super volcano in Yellowstone that every 600,000 to 800,000 years blows up.
We're overdue.
georges st-pierre
Do you think they will know ahead of time?
No.
Oh man, that scares me.
You sure about that?
joe rogan
Yeah, I don't think so.
georges st-pierre
I know you do a lot of podcasts with different scientists.
Have you ever talked to a guy like this and asked him that question?
unidentified
Yes.
georges st-pierre
Because that's presently...
My biggest fear.
joe rogan
Supervolcanoes?
georges st-pierre
Like Yellowstone, that one is the one because we're overdue.
joe rogan
Yeah, we're overdue.
georges st-pierre
And there is, I don't know if it's misinformation, but I pay attention to certain things on the internet sometimes and I see that it starts to move a little bit.
Like they talk about some of the activity that goes on there.
joe rogan
It could happen quick.
georges st-pierre
That could be another apocalypse if it happens.
joe rogan
Yes, and it's not the only one.
There's multiple active supervolcanoes in the world that if they blow, we're fucked.
And I think if I was an alien civilization and I was monitoring Earth, and I'd be like, well...
We gotta help these things.
Move them along quicker because the place they live is crazy.
The place they live, they only have a certain amount of time to evolve in order to escape.
If their life is going to get to a point where they're so advanced that they can populate the universe and move out into other galaxies, you gotta help them.
We gotta help them.
Because these little monkeys, they don't have a shot.
They're gonna get hit.
But as much as brilliant as they are, the incredible things they've created, they still don't have enough time to evolve to the point where they could get out of there before they get hit.
georges st-pierre
We live in a zone that it's like crossing an highway with our eyes closed, you know?
unidentified
That's a good way to put it.
Boom!
georges st-pierre
Might get hit by a comet or a volcano.
Yeah, it's true.
It's very unstable.
We think that it's stable because the life of a human being can perhaps extend to 100 years old, but it's been around for a long time.
joe rogan
That's part of the problem, right?
Our life is so short that we don't have enough information.
Unless people are writing things down, and even if they're writing things down, unless they're writing things down on stone, it's not going to survive past an apocalypse.
georges st-pierre
That's right.
It disappears.
joe rogan
Because the paper is going to be gone.
They find things like the Dead Sea Scrolls.
It's all written on animal skins.
And they found them in a cave in Qumran.
It's like these things and they have to do DNA tests on the skins to make sure they align them together when they're trying to piece together these little pieces of a story that these people are trying to tell from thousands and thousands of years ago.
georges st-pierre
That's why I think Gobekli Tepe is so fascinating because it's on rock and there is carving of animals that are not even indigenous of that area.
unidentified
Yes!
georges st-pierre
It's like, how the hell?
joe rogan
Not only that, the carvings aren't carvings.
They're 3D structures.
So it's not like someone carved into the stone.
They removed all the stone around it.
georges st-pierre
Who?
joe rogan
Have you ever seen it?
georges st-pierre
No, I thought it was carving.
joe rogan
It is carving, but it's not a carving like there's a flat stone and there's a drawing carved in.
It's a 3D thing.
So that means they carved away all the stone around these little things, which is far more complex.
georges st-pierre
I think there's a message out there because they deliberately...
Buried the whole site, man.
joe rogan
Yeah, they deliberately did, but they don't know who did that and they don't know why.
So it goes to some of the other ones.
There's some more interesting ones that show some of the weird shit of animals and stuff.
But there's some of the cooler ones in Gobekli Tepe that show these three-dimensional little creatures.
See if you Google three-dimensional stone carvings on Gobekli Tepe.
That one right there.
That one in the far left of your cursor, Jamie.
georges st-pierre
There is one that has...
joe rogan
No, above that.
Go above.
Go above.
Right there.
Right there.
Boom.
So that's a perfect example.
georges st-pierre
Joe, there is one...
joe rogan
See, look at that one.
unidentified
That's a complete 3D thing.
joe rogan
So they carved out all the stuff around it to create whatever that is.
A lizard or whatever the fuck it is?
georges st-pierre
There is one that is an image of someone that is holding someone that is holding someone.
unidentified
Yeah.
georges st-pierre
And that's, when you talk about ancestors, what does that mean?
You know what I mean?
There's a lot of conspiracy theorists about that one.
You know the one I'm talking about?
The carving of, you can't see the head, but you see it's like a human is holding a baby, but you don't know which one is the first one.
joe rogan
Is that it?
I don't know.
They're all cool.
georges st-pierre
Yeah.
joe rogan
It's cool shit.
georges st-pierre
I think there could be a message there because, you know, I think there's something to learn out there.
I mean, we live in a very interesting time.
It's fascinating.
joe rogan
Well, one of the more fascinating things about the construction of the pyramids and the hieroglyphs is none of the hieroglyphs show the pyramid in various stages of construction.
You would think...
You'd want to write that down.
georges st-pierre
Of course.
joe rogan
You're writing down all this other stuff, like Enki and people traveling to the dark lands and this is the afterlife.
They wrote all that stuff down.
They didn't bother writing down how they created one of the most...
Unless they did it in the library of Alexandria and it got burnt up.
But in the hieroglyphs, they don't have a depiction of the pyramid in various stages or the sphinx in various stages.
There's only a couple images, I believe, of them even moving stones.
georges st-pierre
Wow.
joe rogan
It's wild shit, man.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, we don't know.
And I think a lot of people are afraid to admit when they don't know, so they made up stories.
joe rogan
Could be.
Yeah, could be.
georges st-pierre
And I think it takes courage and guts to say you don't know.
joe rogan
Well, archaeologists are also very reluctant to entertain any other ideas other than the ones they've been teaching and writing books about.
So that's one of the things that Graham Hancock and also Robert Schock Ran into when they were trying to show images of the erosion that appears on the Temple of the Sphinx.
That seems to indicate that it's the result of thousands of years of rainfall.
They violently oppose these ideas.
georges st-pierre
Some say it's the wind, but their arguments are not very strong.
I like the one of Robert Chuck much better.
joe rogan
Well, he's a geologist.
I mean, his whole field of study is studying water.
And I did a podcast with him, too, back in the day.
georges st-pierre
Yeah, I've seen all that.
joe rogan
Really interesting stuff, man.
All those ideas are fascinating because if they're correct, and it seems like they are, it seems to indicate that this date that they put on civilization of Egypt, you know, they have accurate dates about parts of Egypt, you know, like the construction of the Great Pyramid.
But this would predate that by thousands and thousands of years because it seems to indicate that the result of the erosion is a result of thousands of years of rainfall.
The problem with that is the last time there was that kind of rainfall in the Nile Valley was 9000 BC.
So you gotta go thousands of years before the construction of the pyramids.
georges st-pierre
So the reason why they put this date is because perhaps it has been contaminated by a more recent civilization that went there.
That doesn't mean that it's the one that built it.
joe rogan
Right.
That's what they think about the Sphinx.
Because the head of the Sphinx is smaller than the rest of the body.
And the head of the Sphinx is clearly a man.
They probably did it like a pharaoh probably contracted them to build that.
But it seems smaller.
It's out of proportion to the rest of the Sphinx.
So at one time, it might have been a lion.
And then some guys say, like, fuck that lion.
Make my head.
georges st-pierre
I think I've heard to the...
I think it's 12,000...
11,800, it was pointing to the Leo constellation.
joe rogan
Yeah, the Leo constellation, yeah.
georges st-pierre
That's why they think it's a lion, but...
I don't know.
I'm too dumb to know.
joe rogan
It's interesting though.
georges st-pierre
I like to contemplate the idea.
I just hope it is true.
Because we feel so lonely.
I hope all that is true.
joe rogan
If there's anything that I hope, I hope that aliens are real.
And that's my problem with my own thinking about it, is that I want it to be true so badly.
That I almost ignore evidence to the contrary.
That's also why I get angry when I talk to someone who's full of shit.
When I know they're a liar and I know that they're lying about UFOs and their ability to contact UFOs and all the information that they know.
Like, okay.
You don't know shit.
The fucking government is trying to figure this out.
georges st-pierre
Sometimes people...
Believe what they believe.
You know, they believe their own stories, but it doesn't mean they are lying.
They believe what they've seen is...
You know what I mean?
So they make their own movies in their minds.
But what's your brain...
Your eyes look at the perception that it gives your brain sometimes.
It's not the truth.
joe rogan
Well, that's why the most fascinating encounter to me was Commander Fravor.
Because he's a fighter jet pilot.
And he knows what he's looking at.
And he also doesn't have any other stories like that.
He's a hardcore, legitimate pilot.
He's a pilot who doesn't have a history of telling fantastic stories.
He has one encounter with this thing that behaved in a way that they can't explain, actively blocked their radar, jammed their radar, which is technically an act of war.
And then behaved in a way, like moved in a way that they can't explain.
And they tracked it.
And they have video of this thing and they, you know, they know it's a thing.
They don't know what the fuck it is.
They don't know what it was doing there or why it was doing there.
And he also said that it was hovering above something that was in the ocean.
There was, it was some waves washing over this thing.
So it was clearly some large craft and it's hovering above it and then met them and looked at them.
Like it was, it was turning towards them.
So it was aware that they were there.
georges st-pierre
There's different theory about these things.
Some people believe it could come from deep down in the ocean.
Some people, Jacques Vallée, believe it's from another dimension.
Some people believe it's human from the future.
Some people believe it's from another star system.
Some people believe that everybody is full of shit and it's not true.
unidentified
Who knows?
georges st-pierre
I don't know, man.
joe rogan
It's cool to talk about that.
georges st-pierre
I want it to be true, bro.
I really want it.
And it affects my judgment sometimes.
joe rogan
Yes, me too!
I'm glad you're honest about that.
That's exactly how I feel.
It affects my judgment.
But hey, brother, so good to see you again.
Thanks for being here, man.
I really enjoyed it.
georges st-pierre
John!
joe rogan
Always a pleasure.
georges st-pierre
Joe, thank you.
And man, it's good to see you.
You haven't aged a bit.
You're like wine.
You get better with age.
And you're still carrying that bazooka of a spinnick back kick as a little weapon in your pocket.
It doesn't get better than this, my friend.
joe rogan
And you, my friend, you are a perfect example of a fighter who lived their career, did it all, became a champion, but then got out on your own terms.
I love that.
You are a great example to young fighters coming up.
georges st-pierre
Thank you, Joe.
joe rogan
A perfect model.
georges st-pierre
I want to be like you when I grow up.
Thank you.
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