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March 10, 2021 - The Joe Rogan Experience
02:58:55
Joe Rogan Experience #1617 - Mike Baker
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joe rogan
01:06:04
m
mike baker
01:47:32
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jamie vernon
01:00
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unidentified
Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!
The Joe Rogan Experience.
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.
That sound is the sweet and sultry sound of Mike Baker lighting a cigar.
mike baker
Hey now.
joe rogan
Good to see you, buddy.
What's happening?
mike baker
Good to be seen.
Good to be seen.
You know, not much going on in these times of ours.
joe rogan
I'm very excited to talk to you because I had a guy on, Jamie Metzl yesterday, a scientist who scared the shit out of me, talking about China.
He's talking about China.
We were talking about China amassing naval power, China's...
Taking over tech companies and how huge they're getting and how much influence they have over their people as opposed to the way we do it.
mike baker
Well, he's not wrong.
unidentified
No.
mike baker
Yeah, I can't spot the line in what you just said.
I mean, look, there's so much we can talk about.
But if you think about it, just in the past handful of months, There was this SolarWinds hack, right, by the Russians.
So the Russians go in, they hack into a company called SolarWinds that is an IT management software company that happens to be fairly deep into government organizations, agencies, treasury, and a variety of others throughout the U.S. government.
And they're also into parts of the intel community, defense department, and a lot of commercial sectors.
So anyway, the Russians figure this out.
Now, around about December or January, Microsoft identified this as a problem.
And I think it was the head of Microsoft said, this looks like the most sophisticated attack we've ever seen.
So this is December, January timeframe.
And they're still trying to figure out the depth of this hack by Russians.
At the same time, and going back months and months and months and months before, the Chinese...
had been engaged in a more sophisticated attack that while everyone is focused on what's going on and so fully aware that we got problems, right, from nation states out there who don't like us, Everybody's talking about SolarWinds, and now it's, you know, they've just now released information about the Chinese attack against Microsoft Exchange servers, running the Exchange email systems.
And this thing is enormous.
And so the Chinese, yeah, I mean, we've been so focused for four years on the Russians, you know, and they're, you know, they're out there to cause us all sorts of problems.
So we should be focused on them.
But it's China that's the biggest problem.
And so this guy is absolutely right.
Jamie's right.
joe rogan
It was terrifying.
Listen to what he was talking about, the way he was explaining how they have this plan.
I think he said 2049 to be the global superpower of the world and essentially take the place of what America used to be.
But do it their way.
mike baker
And do it their way, which means we're going to bypass all the costs and the heavy lift of research and development over the years, which is going to steal everything.
And they've been doing it for decades.
So people think, oh, China, it's a problem.
We've talked about this before, this idea that perhaps this is just something relatively new or it's popped up during the previous administration of Trump.
Honest to God's truth is it's been going on for decades, and they decided that that's how they're going to get to the top of the food chain, is by stealing shit, because it's a lot easier to hoover up everything and then reverse engineer it.
And the technology has made it even easier, right?
It used to be old school.
They'd go out and recruit somebody.
They'd find some Chinese-American working for a company here in the States.
They'd appeal to sort of, you know, you got to help the motherland, and they would.
And that was the old school way of doing it.
You know, cyber theft is, it's incredible what they're able to do.
And this latest attack, while they're still trying to sort out the mess, right?
joe rogan
So when they do this, so if they get into this email server, are they targeting anything specific?
Is there specific companies?
Are they just like throwing a net out there and seeing what they catch?
mike baker
Yes, is the answer to both of those.
It looks like what happened here was that Their initial point of attack or the initial focus was intelligence, right?
So then it branched out, and it branched out very, very quickly, right, to hit everything, small companies, medium-sized companies.
And that's kind of the M.O. for the Chinese, the Chinese regime, right, and their intel operations.
They've got this long vision, and they've also got the resources, and they've got the desire to hoover up everything and then sort it out later.
We take, as a country, we take a very sort of targeted approach, right?
We say, okay, this is a piece of information that's a priority tasking for the U.S., for our national security.
We're going to go out.
We're going to figure out who has access to it.
We're going to develop a very sort of surgical strike to figure out how do we get to somebody who's got this piece of information.
That's typically how...
We or some of our allies would operate.
The Russians, the Chinese, have always had a different approach.
I mean, the Russians is less elegant.
The Russians just throw shit at the wall and see what sticks, right?
But the Chinese, they've got this long view and they've also got this ability.
So in this particular attack that they're still trying to assess that was perpetrated by Chinese state-sponsored hackers based in China, they They're just going to take everything, and then they'll sift through it.
They'll figure out what they got.
A lot of it's going to be just, you know, chafe, not of interest, but they're going to find a lot of gold in there, too.
And they're willing to do that because they've got the patience to do it.
They'll develop a target.
They'll develop a potential recruit for years and years and years.
Or they'll infiltrate a society or an organization, right?
They'll put a student out here who's actually working for the PLA, for their intel operations.
They'll put them out as an undergrad, and then they'll go to school, and they'll get good grades, and they'll go to grad school, and they'll get a job, and they'll get another job, and then 30 years down the line, it may pay off, but they're willing to make that investment.
joe rogan
So we should be scared.
mike baker
Well, we shouldn't be scared, but we should, yeah.
I don't think we should be scared, but I think what we should be is...
Is pragmatic and understand why, for instance, I mean, there was a lot of, you know, hue and cry over the past four years.
I can't believe I just said hue and cry.
I don't even know what that means.
It's old-timey.
joe rogan
Is it?
mike baker
Oh, by golly!
unidentified
What is hue and cry?
mike baker
Look at me.
It's like the cat's pajamas.
It's so...
Four years of Trump and sort of his antagonistic relationship with China, and people were all wringing their hands in Washington, D.C., sort of the think tankers and the traditional pundits and the diplomats of the U.S., the long-term people.
Oh, my God, we've got this adversarial relationship with China.
Well, you know what?
We better.
So that's not a bad thing.
So I'm hoping the current administration maintains to some degree.
And we'll see what happens.
They still haven't responded to the SolarWinds, to the Russian hack.
They're talking about it.
Now they're saying they're going to engage in several clandestine retaliatory acts.
Well, it's not that clandestine because they've announced that they're going to do it.
But I'm hoping that they will take serious action against the SolarWinds Russian Act, but they've got to with China.
They've got to maintain this posture.
We've got to make it clear and understood to the Chinese regime that we're not going to put up with this shit.
They're going to keep doing it, but we've got to make it painful for them.
joe rogan
So how do you make it painful?
mike baker
Well, you know, it's the old word sanctions.
You got to go with the sanctions because there's not much else.
Trade wars, you know, I know everybody hates a trade war, not everybody, but you've got to find a way because the problem with cyber shenanigans is that there's no real clear definition, right?
We know if a country fires a ballistic missile off, You know, we know what the retaliatory act is.
We know what an appropriate response is.
In cyberspace, when you're talking about warfare, Coming up with a definition is very difficult and hasn't been done yet.
We've got Cyber Command, right?
And we're still trying to sort out what are appropriate responses because it can escalate quickly, right?
Next thing you know, they could shut down our infrastructure, right?
joe rogan
Well, that's what I wanted to talk to you about, supposedly what they did in India.
So if you could explain that to people, they shut down the power grid in India, allegedly.
They said they didn't do it, but apparently there was some sort of a warning about the power going out, right?
mike baker
Yeah.
They've done it – I mean the Russians did it famously in Ukraine, right?
I mean not that long ago.
And China's ability to interfere in infrastructure here in the U.S. or in India or with our allies is because for years now they've been probing.
There's been testing going on.
We talk about – it's a good example.
We talk about how in the US we have three grids and I think people were stunned to find out that Texas has its own power grid.
Well, yeah, but it's not so much – people were like, oh my god, look at Texas.
They're terrible because – they wanted to make it a political thing.
They wanted to make it sound like the reason why it's so terrible is because it's Republicans and they've got – they want their own independence.
Well, No, all three grids are fucked, right?
The East and the West and the Texas grids are all cobbled together over the years.
So it's a very...
So it's like a patchwork quilt.
And they were never built to withstand physical attacks.
I mean, you could drive by any substation, right?
You could get close enough to pee on it.
And there's...
They certainly were never designed to withstand a cyber attack.
So...
Over the years, what goes on is essentially a mapping exercise, right?
Whether it's the Russians, whether it's the Chinese, whether it's the North Koreans using Chinese capabilities, whether it's the Iranians, whomever, they're in there probing and trying to understand the weaknesses, and they're drawing up a map.
Now, the reason why they're doing that is to have a game plan, right?
And I guarantee you, sitting on a desk somewhere not too far from, you know, Xi's office, is a playbook that says, if this thing escalates, here's what we're going to do.
And if you think that it was bad in Texas a couple weeks ago when the power was out, and it was bad, but think about that lasting for 8, 10, 12 weeks around the country.
Power grid shutdown, what happens?
You can't transport shit.
You can't get cash.
Fuel doesn't get to the gas stations.
Food doesn't get to the stores.
Depending on the time of year, heat issues, obviously, water supplies.
And that's where the next big battle is going to be fought, right?
They're going to bring it to the homeland.
And we will do the same thing, right?
It's not like we're not doing it because people always say when I say something like that, well, the U.S. does it too.
I think, well, fuck yeah, the U.S. does it.
We better.
We better hope we're prepared.
joe rogan
Does that frustrate you when people say that?
Well, the U.S. does it too.
mike baker
Yeah, it does in a sense because – and this is where I think – You know, now personal opinion comes into it.
Look, I spent most of my adult life overseas, and I like to think that I've got a fairly pragmatic view on things.
I do admit that I, you know, obviously, look, I look at the U.S., and I like to think, and I have seen on occasion, we do a lot of things for the right reasons.
Sometimes we don't do it properly, right?
We make mistakes.
Of course we make mistakes.
But we try to self-correct.
I guarantee you, if we're talking about the major powers out there, if we're talking about China and us, if we're talking about the Chinese regime, I'm talking about obviously, if we're talking about the Russians, the Iranians, the North Koreans, we better hope that we stay up there, right?
And are able to exert influence and leverage and control the top, right?
Because if it's—and again, maybe I'm wrong here, but the Chinese don't view anything in an altruistic manner.
The Chinese regime, right?
It's all about self-interest.
And sometimes, I'll tell you what's frustrating, sometimes we seem to be the only country out there that apologizes, right, for that sort of thing.
And so when we act in our own best interest and we go, well, we're really sorry about that.
You know, we're kind of acting in our own best interest.
Well, every other nation does it and they don't give a fuck.
joe rogan
Yeah, but shouldn't we be the moral high ground for the world?
I think we should.
I think it's nice if we do all the same shit they do.
We say, sorry.
As long as we do all the same shit.
mike baker
I guess it doesn't cost anything to say sorry.
joe rogan
It's not a bad thing.
mike baker
It's not a bad thing.
joe rogan
We're setting a tone.
mike baker
Yeah, I guess that's true.
As long as we're also then, at the same time, acting at our own best interest.
Because we have to be, again, we have to be pragmatic.
If we think that somehow, you know, look at climate change.
Obviously, it's back on the table.
It's a big issue.
It's a major policy direction.
Hey, fine.
Great.
Who doesn't want clean energy?
But, you know, To act as if China's not the number one polluter out there is insane.
joe rogan
Yeah, that's where it gets weird.
mike baker
Yeah, it gets a little weird.
joe rogan
It's a giant difference between the amount of particulates, the amount of pollution, the amount of CO2. I think they've tried hard to mitigate that over the last few years in particular, but you remember when they had the Beijing Olympics and they had to shut everything down because the air quality was so bad that it would actually be dangerous for the athletes to perform and to compete.
Under those conditions.
Light it up, baby.
Don't worry about it.
mike baker
I'm not allowed to smoke cigars in the house because I don't want to set a bad example for Scooter and Sluggo and Muggsy.
joe rogan
Well, I'm allowed to in the house, but I get yelled at by the kids.
mike baker
Do you have air handlers in any part of your house?
joe rogan
No, I have a thing, one of those purifiers, those air things that suck things out.
And I have some spray that I bought on Amazon that's supposed to kill the spray.
mike baker
Like Febreze?
joe rogan
Yeah, and in my office, I have a window thing.
I open the windows and get the air out.
mike baker
That's old school.
That's good.
Yeah, it works.
joe rogan
But I live with all women, man.
It's all women in my fucking house.
It's always women in there.
I like being a man every now and then.
I put the fights on.
I smoke a cigar.
I put my feet up.
I feel like a man again, Mike Baker.
mike baker
No, I know.
Look, I got a different situation.
My wife is completely outnumbered, right?
Even with the pets, except for we got a Siberian hamster that's a female, we think.
joe rogan
I got a male dog, at least.
unidentified
How do you know?
mike baker
There you go.
How's he doing?
Marshall?
joe rogan
He's awesome.
mike baker
Marshall, right?
joe rogan
He's the best.
mike baker
Yeah, yeah.
Dogs are great.
So yeah, the Chinese is...
joe rogan
Not good.
mike baker
I hate to...
I think sometimes people say, ah, quit kicking the Chinese in the ass.
But the regime really does have a plan, as you pointed out.
They would like to accelerate that plan to before 2049. And it's everything.
It's the aggression in the South Pacific Seas.
It's the buildup of their military, particularly their navy.
It's...
It's primarily, the part that is most frustrating is the theft of intellectual property.
And, I mean, look, this hack that I just talked about earlier with Microsoft, with the exchange.
We're getting screwed, right?
So they're out there.
We don't know the extent.
We know it's huge.
We don't know the extent yet of this attack.
But do you think that's going to stop?
Is Microsoft going to stop doing business in China?
joe rogan
No.
mike baker
Absolutely not.
joe rogan
No.
mike baker
Facebook is banned.
You know what's not banned?
Microsoft, right?
LinkedIn, right?
Bing, right?
joe rogan
Who the fuck uses Bing?
mike baker
I know.
unidentified
Bing.
mike baker
I know.
I didn't even know it was still in existence.
joe rogan
I have a Windows laptop.
It wants to pull up Bing sometimes.
I'm like, what are you doing?
Please get out of here.
unidentified
I know.
mike baker
Bing.
But at that point, Bing is...
joe rogan
How bad is Bing?
Is it bad?
It's not bad.
mike baker
Bad of Bing?
joe rogan
It's just no one's using it, right?
I'd use DuckDuckGo.
That's what I like.
Because DuckDuckGo gives me uncurated information.
That's good.
DuckDuckGo doesn't save your information.
It's not trying to use your data.
And it just gives you a search.
Do you know what it is?
Are you aware of it?
mike baker
No.
Look at me.
I know how to do a couple of things on my laptop.
One of them is send emails.
joe rogan
I've looked for things on Google and I couldn't find them page after page.
I looked on DuckDuckGo and I find them instantly.
DuckDuckGo does not censor or curate any of the information.
It just tries to search out keywords that you're looking for.
So here's a perfect example.
mike baker
How do you know it's not curated though?
joe rogan
Well, the difference is the way I try to find things on Google and try to find things on DuckDuckGo.
This is a good example.
There was a doctor in Florida who died immediately after the COVID vaccination.
Whether it's causation or correlation or just random...
Bad luck.
mike baker
Coincidence.
joe rogan
This guy was in his 50s.
He was relatively healthy, as far as the article says.
Takes COVID vaccination, dies.
So I'm trying to find out what this is, because somebody sent it to me, and then I Google it.
I cannot find it.
Two, three, four pages in, can't find it.
Duck, duck, go.
First page, right away.
I'm like, well, something's happening.
I think Google is trying to...
Look, I think they're doing it for altruistic purposes.
I think they think that they're being good citizens and good human beings, trying to encourage people to get vaccinated, and they want to discourage anti-vax propaganda.
If you have 320 million people that get vaccinated, you're going to have 100, 200, 1,000, 2,000 horror stories.
That's just...
That's if you give 320 million people Tylenol, you're going to have 2,000 horror stories, right?
mike baker
Agreed?
Yeah, I remember the Tylenol scale.
I remember that from years ago.
joe rogan
Well, that was different, though.
That was someone was poisoning.
unidentified
Exactly.
joe rogan
But I mean, if you just give them...
I mean, Tylenol might not be the best example, but there's a lot of medication that if you give people...
Some people, for whatever reason, like I'm not allergic to dogs, but my wife's allergic to dogs.
Some people, like my friend Brian, his mom, if she even licks a Brazil nut, she's dead.
mike baker
My wife's like that with hazelnuts.
joe rogan
I don't know what the fuck that is, but this is also the case with virtually anything that gets introduced to the human body.
We vary so much biologically that if you have a wide swath of people, if you have an enormous number, 330 plus million, you're going to have a few horrible cases.
Now, that doesn't mean that people shouldn't get vaccinated.
It doesn't mean people shouldn't eat Brazil nuts.
It just means you should kind of have access to all the information, but we also should have...
Unbiased, objective reporting of these things.
And someone should state it that way.
And I try to do that.
mike baker
Is DuckDuckGo, is that spelled?
Is it some funky spelling?
It's just an app.
joe rogan
It's an app.
mike baker
I have them on my phone.
unidentified
It's spelled like duck.
joe rogan
It's not like D-U-K or anything.
No, no, no.
mike baker
Stupid shit.
Clever thing.
joe rogan
It actually is a duck and the logo is a duck.
But I like it.
mike baker
We're getting a farm duck.
joe rogan
Their eggs taste like shit, though.
Have you ever had duck eggs?
mike baker
I have had duck eggs, yeah.
joe rogan
I bought a fucking dozen duck eggs.
I gave them to my dog.
mike baker
Where'd you get duck eggs from?
joe rogan
From some fucking weirdo market.
mike baker
Yeah, farm the table market.
joe rogan
Yeah, some weirdo market serving duck eggs.
They suck.
They're in fear.
They're slimy.
mike baker
We're just getting the farm duck for entertainment purposes.
joe rogan
But they leave like a film on your mouth.
mike baker
Well, that's good to know that.
I'm going to tell my boys, don't eat the duck eggs.
joe rogan
Like if you blew Donald Duck, it'd probably be the same as eating a duck egg.
I mean, look, it's a matter of starving.
mike baker
The only person to know about that would be Daisy.
joe rogan
Quail eggs, though, are delicious.
mike baker
Quail eggs are delicious.
I had a quail egg last night.
joe rogan
Did you?
mike baker
I did.
joe rogan
Look at you fancy culinary guy.
mike baker
I was sitting on top of some tuna tartare.
unidentified
Oh!
joe rogan
Oh, look at tuna tartare.
mike baker
I know.
unidentified
Look at you.
joe rogan
Whale eggs.
mike baker
Well, let me just adjust my ascot.
unidentified
Did it have a tiny sprinkling of parsley?
mike baker
Yeah, I believe there might have been foam on the plate, too.
Remember, that was a big thing.
unidentified
Foam.
mike baker
We're going to put foam on there.
Don't put foam on my plate.
joe rogan
When people do that drizzle of, like, balsamic.
mike baker
Put a little bit there, you go, creepy, Chris.
No, it's...
What was I going to say?
Something about the...
Oh, the Russians.
You talk about the...
Inability to get information.
So you talk about vaccines.
So just something popped in my head.
The Russians are at it again, right?
So they did the solo wins.
They know that retaliation is...
joe rogan
You have a hard time with that word.
mike baker
I do.
Fucking hell.
joe rogan
What's the problem?
mike baker
Retaliation.
Retaliation.
joe rogan
That's good.
You're kind of from another country, but it's England.
Right?
You were born in England?
mike baker
Yeah, aluminum.
joe rogan
Yeah, that's a weird one.
mike baker
And tires with a Y. Yeah, we want to put extra vowels.
joe rogan
But you're American, basically.
mike baker
Oh, sure, yeah.
joe rogan
How American are you?
mike baker
First and foremost.
joe rogan
When were you born there?
You lived there to how long?
mike baker
My childhood.
And then I moved to Australia.
joe rogan
What year did you move to America?
mike baker
I did my final year of high school in America.
joe rogan
You can't be trusted.
mike baker
Of course I can't be.
joe rogan
You're basically a foreigner.
mike baker
I'm a very trustworthy person.
joe rogan
I feel like he's a foreign agent working for the CIA. Right, Jamie?
Don't you feel this way?
mike baker
It seems harsh, Jamie.
Don't say yes, Jamie.
joe rogan
And I'm a big fan of Australians.
mike baker
I know there's pressure to say yes.
joe rogan
Australians are basically, I feel like...
mike baker
Australians are great.
Say nothing bad about Australians.
joe rogan
No, I fucking love Australia.
If I was going to live anywhere outside the United States and Canada, I would live in Australia, 100%.
Or New Zealand.
mike baker
New Zealand's beautiful.
joe rogan
I've never even been to New Zealand, but I love New Zealanders.
mike baker
I'm surprised at that.
I mean, that's a beautiful place.
I'm afraid I'll stay.
Well, it's a long ways away.
People say it's a great place to ride out the pandemic.
It's no better than Idaho.
Idaho's a great place to ride.
joe rogan
That's a good place, but it's a lot colder than New Zealand, motherfucker.
mike baker
Yeah, no, that's not incorrect.
joe rogan
New Zealand looks like Hobbitland.
mike baker
But the Russians, let me tell you about what the Russians are up to now, having just on the heels of the SolarWinds hack, which was very successful for them.
We still don't know how much intel they've pulled, and it's probably a great deal.
But now what they're doing is they are engaged in a covert action campaign, basically a propaganda campaign, against U.S. vaccines, Pfizer in particular.
joe rogan
Against them?
mike baker
Yes.
Basically, what they're doing is they're using social media and they're seeding information about, well, this Pfizer vaccine.
I don't know if it's really legit, right?
Because the Russians created their own vaccine.
This is basically a monetary decision for them.
They're trying to sell their Sputnik vaccine.
joe rogan
Is that what it's called?
mike baker
It's called Sputnik.
unidentified
Really?
Yeah.
mike baker
They never got over that space race thing.
So they call it Sputnik.
They're trying to sell it to every country that will buy it.
And so what they're trying to do is they're trying to push down or they're trying to create a lack of credibility in the Pfizer vaccine in particular, U.S.-made vaccines in general.
And so they're seeding stories out there.
In the old days, before the internet, What you would do is you would pay off journalists, and you would get stories planted in the newspapers, when people read newspapers.
And that's how you would influence, to some degree, public opinion.
You do other things.
The Russians, you know, they're very good at this.
But that was one of the old days, the ways that you would do it.
Now, as we know from the elections in the past, they're using that same methodology that they did during the elections to sort of like put in this idea that our electoral system isn't credible, that there's problems with it.
That's in their benefit.
But they're also now doing it as far as the vaccines go.
And primarily the driver there is a monetary issue, right?
They just want to sell Sputnik.
It really is called Sputnik.
It's really called Sputnik.
It's the Sputnik.
joe rogan
By the way, my friend who's a doctor took the Russian vaccine.
He got a hold of the Russian vaccine a few months ago.
He said zero side effects.
mike baker
Did he do it as an experiment or did he do it because it was the only vaccine he could get?
joe rogan
He can get whatever he wants.
I think, well, he's a really fucking smart guy.
He's one of the smartest people I know.
And he just...
mike baker
You know a lot of smart people, so that's pretty impressive.
joe rogan
He's a genius, like a legitimate genius.
And he decided that he wanted to take the Russian vaccine.
I haven't talked to him about it in depth, but he said based on the research that he did on the vaccine, he said it's as legit as any of them.
He had access to it.
Is it an mRNA virus the same, or vaccine rather, is the same as Pfizer and Moderna?
mike baker
Yeah, I think it's using the same technology and the development of it was kind of the same, I think.
But they raced it out there, right?
And what they don't have to do is, it's like a lot of other things overseas, they don't necessarily have the FDA, you know, breathing down the neck saying, these are the sort of clinical trials you've got to go through, these are the sort of approvals you need.
So part of the problem that they've been facing with Sputnik is like, you got this out here pretty quick, right?
joe rogan
They probably tested it on Pussy Riot and political dissonance.
You know Pussy Riot, the band?
mike baker
Yeah, sure.
I got all their albums.
joe rogan
I have a t-shirt back in my LA house.
I need to bring it over here.
It's free Pussy Riot.
I was wearing it on podcast.
mike baker
Haven't you sold the LA house?
joe rogan
I have two L.A. houses.
I sold one of them.
Listen to you.
mike baker
Man, look at me.
I'm big in the real estate market.
He knows things.
joe rogan
He slipped up there, didn't he, Jamie?
mike baker
Yeah.
joe rogan
He slipped up a little bit.
mike baker
I didn't slip up, no.
Sometimes you want to see the fact that there's a piece of information floating out there.
You put it in the sidebar conversation.
So anyway, the bottom line is, I don't want to sound like one of those people, but we just have to be pragmatic.
joe rogan
Yes.
mike baker
And so, to go back to that question you had, which I think is very interesting, is do I get frustrated by people saying, well, the US, you know, does it too?
Fuck yeah.
It's a hostile world out there, whether you want to believe it or not.
It's not a happy place out there, and there's a lot of people that would like to see us at the bottom of the food chain.
And so all those people that say, well, the U.S. does it too.
Yes, we do.
And you know what?
You're sitting here in the U.S., and you're using the benefits of being here in the U.S., so you probably want to, on occasion, just on occasion, maybe root for the home team.
joe rogan
I think it's a natural thing that people do when one country is the most innovative, the most militarily successful.
There's a lot of shit about the United States that angers people that even are a part of the United States in terms of our...
I mean, you've got guys like Ron Paul who don't think we should be anywhere.
We should be controlling the United States.
And you've got other people that think that we should go over there and fucking kick ass and conquer the whole globe and keep them on the straight and narrow the way allegedly we are.
But the thing that bothers me more than anything about the United States currently is like...
There's an unnecessary divide that I see amongst us.
There's a racial divide.
There's a sexual orientation divide.
I wonder how much of this is cultivated and how much of this is curated.
When I see even weird things that don't make sense, like in Connecticut, 15 of their state titles, state records for women's athletics are held by two biological males who identify as females.
There's one thing to be tolerant and to be open-minded, but there's one thing to look at the whole picture and go, what better way Across the board, with everything, to get people upset and frustrated and distracted and constantly engaged in arguments and battle than to seed social media with nonsense and constant propaganda.
We know from the Internet Research Agency and Rene DiResta's work and all this that Russia in particular and probably China and Iran Are constantly flooding social media with arguments against all sorts of policies and pro all sorts of other policies simultaneously just to encourage argument.
And you wonder, like, how much of the racial divide in America is real?
For sure there's real racists in America.
mike baker
Of course, yeah, yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
But also, for sure, there's a lot of, like, malarkey.
There's a lot of shit that's, like, most of us...
Get along.
mike baker
Most of us get along.
I agree with you.
Republicans are Democrats.
Most don't give a shit because they're worried about their daily fucking life.
joe rogan
They're worried about their children.
They're worried about the same thing.
It's like that old Sting song, the Russians love their children too.
Yeah, it's the...
Well done.
mike baker
You just quoted Sting.
joe rogan
I love Sting.
I think what's happening is the world is so filled with information and there's some players that are manipulating that information to keep people being antagonistic against each other.
And the thing is, they're over there and we think, oh, these motherfuckers are coming after us.
They're doing this.
They're hacking this.
No one is together, right?
Human beings are supposed to be like you and I are right now.
Having a cocktail, smoking a cigar, sitting across from each other.
And we all basically want the same things.
We want to be healthy and successful.
mike baker
We want the best for our kids.
Yes, yes.
joe rogan
We want the best for our community.
We want to be happy.
We want to be happy.
And there's too many filters in this life between human beings sitting down and communicating with each other and breaking bread with each other and talking with each other.
There's too many filters.
mike baker
Well, I will say, nobody should underestimate that point that you just made earlier, which is that There's a very active covert action wing within the Russian government, within Chinese intel, and their whole point sometimes is not to do anything other than just to sow distrust and instability and chaos.
People say, well, why would they do that?
Well, they do it because it's in their best interest.
Again, going back to that same thought.
So is it in the Russian...
Best interest to kind of see the idea of, man, you know what?
Domestic terrorism and racism, that's your top priority in the states.
Of course it is.
And so we feed into that, right?
And we do our own part too, right?
There's this desire to slice and dice the demographic, right, for political purposes, right?
If I can control this block, or if I can control that block, then I can win the election, right?
Well, that's fucked up.
joe rogan
It's fucked up.
mike baker
And I'm old enough to remember the riots.
Okay, I was watching TV as a kid, but the riots of the 60s and that whole civil rights process.
And I'll be honest with you.
Up until a handful of years ago, I really thought we'd moved on.
I thought it was all about...
Who you are as a person, right?
Your character, as Martin Luther King used to talk about.
I think you'd be disgusted by this idea that it's all about the color of your skin.
That's bullshit.
joe rogan
It is bullshit.
mike baker
And it's also the sexual orientation.
I don't give a fuck what your sexual orientation is.
I don't need to celebrate it, but I don't care.
joe rogan
Yeah, I don't care.
I think these are attack vectors.
mike baker
Yes, that's a good way to put it.
joe rogan
They're ways that people can figure out a way to sow the seeds of dissent and discontent.
And I think that...
One of the things that happened, we talked about the whole situation with the power grid here.
It was really sad to me to watch people on the left saying, hey, Texas, you still want your independence now?
Look what happened.
Man, you got babies freezing to death.
You got people without clean water.
Is that who you are?
Because as an American, I don't give a fuck if you're a Republican or a Democrat.
I share ideas from both sides.
I'm kind of a hybrid in a lot of ways.
I mean, I'm a big supporter of the Second Amendment.
I'm a big supporter of the military.
But I'm very liberal.
I'm socially very liberal.
Like, I don't buy this idea that I have to be a part of one party or another party.
I 100% support gay rights.
I 100% support women's rights, civil rights, trans rights, across the board, but not at the expense of other people.
Which is why I'm against this whole idea of trans athletes competing against biological females.
But it's also why I'm also in support of the Second Amendment.
Some people, they're raised poorly, they're abused, they're tortured, they're fucking put in foster care, they find their way into juvenile detention, they go to prison, and then they're out, and they have no money, and then the pandemic hits, and they want to rob your house.
If you don't think you should have a gun, To protect yourself from bad people who just, by circumstance or by bad fucking luck, find themselves at your doorstep.
You're crazy.
You're crazy.
You don't love your family.
If you don't think you should be able to protect...
If you're in a bad situation and it's you protecting people against an attack from bad people...
You're out of your mind.
You've never experienced bad people then.
You've never experienced dangerous people.
mike baker
That's a good point.
I mean, a lot of people like to imagine that there's this community of goodwill out there and that if just given the opportunity, all people would be inclined to go along with what's in your best interest.
unidentified
Look, I... Yeah, if you could find them as babies and raise them, right?
joe rogan
When you have children, and I have children too, and there's a thing you find out when you have children.
When I had children, it changed me as a man.
It changed me as a human being.
And one of the most profound ways it changed me is I stopped thinking about people as static things.
I stopped thinking about a man as like, this is a 54-year-old man, and here he is.
I go, oh, this is a grown-up baby.
And I really started thinking about people like that.
I started thinking about people as children that grew up, and by bad circumstance, by abuse, by horrible environments, they became this bad person.
But I don't think people are born bad.
mike baker
Yeah, I agree with you.
I don't think they are.
I think the environment creates, you know, I mean, and yeah, I mean, look, there's so many sides to this, right?
I mean, like, criminal justice reform.
Of course!
Of course!
We need to focus on criminal justice reform.
But at the same time, as somebody who owns a walk-in safe, yeah, you're never going to convince me that it's not my right to protect my family.
joe rogan
When you say walk-in safe, you mean a gun safe.
mike baker
Yes.
joe rogan
Let's be honest.
You know, I have fucking gold bars in there, bro.
mike baker
I got catheters and gold bars, yeah.
unidentified
Catheters?
mike baker
That's what I got.
No, no, I'm kidding.
joe rogan
I just had a collection of dildos from the 16th century.
mike baker
That's right.
Well, you know, those things are...
Roman clay dildos.
Where did that come from?
As a walk-in gun safe.
Yeah, look, you have the right.
I mean, think about a family.
You're raising your kids, and the legitimate police response time is 20, 30 minutes, right?
Not because the police are overstretched, but even just because you're living in some place where that's how long it's going to take.
And it's like this idea of, what's a good example?
It's like when you're You talk about, well, should some of the teachers in a school be armed?
Well, we have in Idaho, we have schools where legitimately the sheriff getting to that school is going to take him 25 minutes because of the fucking distance, right?
So yes, do I want a couple of well-trained, vetted, responsible teachers in that public school to be armed in case there is, God forbid, some incident?
Yeah, fuck yeah, I do.
joe rogan
Yeah.
mike baker
So that to me is common sense.
And then you'll get people going, well, that's just wrong.
How is it wrong?
You're protecting children.
joe rogan
Well, it's also the idea that people are mutually exclusive.
These are two mutually exclusive ideas.
Like someone can't be a math teacher but also be trained in firearm use.
mike baker
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
That's crazy.
It's a human being.
If it's a human being that understands math, that guy could be good at anything else.
unidentified
Right.
mike baker
And you insist that they do.
And there's ways to do it.
This is not a heavy lift to have someone trained up and then go through continuous training because they have to do that.
I mean the problem with a lot of people is they'll get scared or for whatever reason they'll think, oh, they're going to take away our guns so I better go out and buy one.
There's a huge surge in gun sales.
joe rogan
Oh my god, the pandemic was the best thing that ever happened in the gun industry.
mike baker
Oh, for the manufacturers?
Oh, absolutely.
joe rogan
And I'm sure the NRA, too.
I'm sure the NRA's membership went up, too.
mike baker
The NRA's had some serious problems.
joe rogan
Well, they have had a lot of problems, but there's not a lot of organizations that are fighting for gun rights.
mike baker
Yeah, there's very few.
So they're important in that sense, but I think that it's important to insist that But again, that's common sense, right?
I don't want the federal government to say, you know, what you have to do, but it's like the masks.
I'll tell you this.
Flying into Texas on an aircraft I was on, one of the flight attendants came up and kind of tapped me on the shoulder as we were getting ready to land and said, well, be careful because, you know, Texas has gotten rid of the mask mandate.
And the point was, from the flight attendant, was...
joe rogan
Did she just say it to you?
mike baker
Yeah, it's going to be like...
joe rogan
She likes you.
mike baker
Yeah, it's a wild west.
She's trying to let you know.
joe rogan
She's like Mr. Pinker.
mike baker
You be careful out there because, you know...
joe rogan
Because I like you.
mike baker
Yeah, and so...
But the point...
My wife was sitting right next to me.
There was nothing untoward.
It wasn't like...
No, we were not engaged in any shenanigans.
But the point was...
Was that they looked at it and they go, oh, you know, Governor Abbott said this, and it's political, right?
But the point of my story is, I walked off the plane, everybody was wearing a mask.
joe rogan
Yeah, this is the thing that Governor Abbott said.
He said, I encourage you to wear a mask, you should still wear a mask, but I don't want the state to tell you what to do.
unidentified
Right.
Right.
joe rogan
That's what I support.
mike baker
And if you don't want the state to tell you what to do, you shouldn't want the federal government telling you what to do.
joe rogan
Exactly.
Exactly.
mike baker
But everybody I've seen in Austin wear a mask.
joe rogan
Wear a mask.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, until you go to a restaurant and then you sit down, then there's no mask.
And I don't understand that.
The whole thing is nonsense.
You have to wear a mask when you go to pee, and then you don't wear a mask when you come back and sit down at your table like, okay.
mike baker
I mean, because to be fair, they've got mostly six-foot distance.
The places that I've been here in Texas, they keep the social distance.
But I guess my point was like, you get this, and we talked about this earlier before the show, but was the idea that some people just like to suffer, and they suffer well, right?
joe rogan
They enjoy the fact that this is hard and bad.
And that's really sad, but it's true.
There's people that they enjoy being depressed.
It's a hard thing to even say because you don't want it to be real.
You don't want there to really be people out there that like...
There's some people that when we got shut into our homes and everyone was sad and everyone was scared, they enjoyed it because that's how they live all the time.
unidentified
Yeah.
mike baker
Or it's their time to shine.
Some people have really shown during the pandemic.
joe rogan
Yeah.
mike baker
And I saw this post from this individual who is a professional, clearly from their job, and they posted, oh...
I'm dealing with such anxiety now because of the possible return to normal and the idea that I'm going to have to travel and I won't be able to have dinner with my kids and I'm just like...
And I'm thinking, fuck you.
It was clear from the Post that they've had the luxury of working from home and not losing their job and they could teach their kids And it's this idea of not opening the public schools.
These kids out here who don't have Wi-Fi, who don't have laptops, who have a one-parent home, who has to work, all those who can't afford a tutor, can't make a little pod to teach their kids...
You know, those people aren't doing well, right?
And those kids are suffering.
And then you get, like, the people who can afford to set up a private pod for their kids and bring a tutor in and have strong Wi-Fi and can do all those things, have English as a first language.
And they're doing just fine.
And they're like, well, we should not go back to school.
Fuck you.
Kids have disappeared off the radar during this past year.
And the schools don't even know where they are in places like New York and Chicago and other places.
So it's fucked up.
joe rogan
Yeah, you know, there's narratives out there.
And the problem with these narratives are, it's not that they're all completely inaccurate.
The problem is when you espouse these narratives in a very condensed, processed way like social media, you get a bunch of people that support it and a bunch of people that argue against it.
But if it's a narrative like, we should stay home, we should all wear masks, pretty hard for people to fight against that, right?
So people...
They pile on, and then people get addicted to the reactions and the interactions on Twitter.
It becomes this weird fucking method of communication, the method of discussing ideas.
And people get really attached to whatever they believe in.
Whether they believe the kids should be in school to the end of time, and all fucking interactions should be done through Zoom.
Or that we should all throw away our masks and achieve herd immunity and we should take vitamin D and go out in the sun and fucking exercise and be healthier and...
mike baker
You can do all of it, right?
You can wear a mask because, you know, okay, fine.
My freedoms aren't infringed by wearing a mask.
I don't give a shit.
joe rogan
It's not that big a deal.
mike baker
Yeah.
But at the same time, do I want my kids back in school?
Do I think it's healthy for my oldest boy Sluggo to, you know, be wearing his, you know, pajamas or his sweatpants all day long and learning from distance?
No.
And I think that it's just...
I do agree with the idea that there are people that suffer well.
They're wielding this whole thing as a sword of justice.
joe rogan
The comedy community is an interesting example.
One of the things that a lot of my professional comedian friends have found is that there's a lot of people that never worked And when I say never, I'm exaggerating, but they weren't successful.
They weren't selling out clubs and theaters.
They weren't doing well.
And they're so angry that some comics have decided to go on the road again.
Because a lot of places have opened up.
Texas has opened up.
Florida has opened up.
You can go and do shows.
mike baker
But that's a chance to do work, right?
joe rogan
It is, but they're angry.
The narrative is that you're doing these super spreader events.
People even got mad at me and Dave Chappelle because Dave and I were doing these shows at Stubbs Amphitheater in Austin outside.
There's no evidence whatsoever that the virus spreads outside.
And I mean literally none.
There's no evidence.
And then on top of that, we test everyone in the crowd.
It's expensive.
It takes a long time.
The people get there early.
We test the entire crowd.
mike baker
Are you doing temperature checks?
No.
joe rogan
No, we're doing antigen tests for the entire crowd.
mike baker
That's crazy.
I mean, that's great, but it's crazy.
joe rogan
It's expensive, but it's the way to do it, and we had a great fucking time, and we're doing it again.
But some comics have been mad at that.
But if you go and look at the comics that are mad, they're all unsuccessful.
Or super liberal, and they're virtue signaling.
They're looking to tag on to this idea that...
That what you're doing is bad and then what we should do is all stay home and lock down.
You can go outside.
And by the way, most people, like 99.9 whatever percent survive.
There was a recent study that showed that 78% of all the people that are hospitalized from COVID are overweight.
Have you seen that?
mike baker
Yeah, I've seen that.
joe rogan
Where is the shame in that?
All these people are talking about fat shaming.
You want to talk about the super spreaders?
It's people that have ignored their health.
And those people need help, and they need support, and they need love.
But there's a reality to the people that are getting sick from this.
If everyone was healthy, this would almost be a non-issue.
Now, that's not a health-shaming thing, like we should be shaming people that are in poor health or people that are born with, you know, comorbidity factors like diabetes and whatever.
mike baker
Right, of course, of course, yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
But we're not looking at this thing 100% objective.
If we were, we would have a completely different take on it.
mike baker
Well, look, there's no science.
That's an example.
I'm focused because I got these three knuckleheads at home, right?
So I'm focused on the education side of things as well, as are you, but there's no science.
People believe science.
Well, of course, believe science.
That's one of the funniest narratives.
Believe science.
Well, who the fuck doesn't believe?
I mean, that's fine, but it's a political issue, right?
But I think that...
There's no science that shows that a six-foot distance in public schools for kids is essential to their health.
So, in fact, the science shows three-foot.
That's fine.
And what that does, though, the importance of that is logistics, right?
Because it allows for you to get the schools open again.
People will talk about the six-foot distance.
We can't get the kids back into their classrooms with six-foot distances.
We can't get enough of them in there.
It's the little things.
It's the logistics of it saying, well, get it down to three foot, which is what the science supports, and then you can get these schools, you can start opening these places back up in a responsible manner.
Honest to God, we're going to look at this thing in a year or two.
Maybe we won't because we're not going to be honest with ourselves.
But if we actually did an honest hot wash of this reaction to the pandemic, Our reaction has been pathetic over this past year.
This has not been a shining moment for us.
joe rogan
Don't you think part of the problem is we started out with a different idea of what the virus is?
We started out thinking that it was going to be like the next Spanish flu, that it was going to kill.
I mean, everyone was terrified, me included.
I was scared of it.
In the beginning, I thought that it was going to be something that kills 10% of the population.
And it didn't turn out to be that way, but we never made an adjustment.
mike baker
Yes, I think that's true, and I think also part of it is you can't negate or minimize the political reaction.
If Joe Biden had been president when this thing broke, I guarantee you the reaction would have been somewhat different.
The fact that Trump was in there and created so much emotion, and there was such animosity.
joe rogan
Thank God Trump wasn't pro-vaccine.
We would be fucked.
Because he was pro so many other therapeutics, and they're like, hydroxychloroquine is racist!
Thank God he didn't say anything about ivermectin or vitamin D or quercetin or any of the other things, or zinc.
mike baker
Yeah, but I do think that was a big issue.
It was like, ah, see?
joe rogan
He was so polarizing.
mike baker
And we can't trust the vaccines because they were developed under Trump.
joe rogan
Right.
mike baker
Fuck it, believe the science.
It was developed by companies that have nothing but scientists and doctors and engineers working inside them.
And so, if you believe the science, then you better believe that they were developing vaccines that you should have been happy about.
So, you know...
I don't know.
It's the political nature of this country.
And again, going back to what we were talking about earlier with the Russians and the Chinese, they see that and they just keep sticking the knife in it.
And the more they do, the more they tear the threads of our belief in the system.
And the more polarized we get and the more yelling that goes on.
The more bullshit people believe when they read social media and they don't bother to say, well, who wrote this?
Is this actually a scientific piece of work or is this just – and what's the origin of it?
What's the outlet?
And half the time the outlet is overseas someplace and then you've got to dig into it.
It's like an asset tracing exercise.
Who owns that company?
Then you find out it's owned by some Russian entity that's got an operation out of Cyprus or whatever.
joe rogan
Well, there's a weird thing when you find something, like you find a meme, like a political meme or a meme that has something to do with anything that's going on in the popular culture, and then you go to the page that runs the meme, and you find that this page has this weird address.
And they're all memes and there's no quotes to the memes.
There's no English.
And you're like, what is going on here?
And you realize, oh my god, this is a propaganda page.
This is a page that someone or some entity has set up to try to make fun of things, to try to turn things viral.
And they churn them out six, seven, ten a day.
And they're just trying to make viral memes that influence the way people look at them.
mike baker
And the ease of doing that.
Look, you go back to the sort of earlier days of the CIA and you think about trying to influence opinion or actions in a particular foreign government, right?
And again, going back to that idea that, well, you didn't have that many opportunities, so what did you do?
You tried to influence the local media.
Well, that was newspapers or radio or whatever, so you'd target that, you know.
How do I place these articles, right?
And the ability to do that now is – I mean, God, I wish I was still in the business now, right?
Because you could change public opinion in a heartbeat compared to what it used to be like.
But the Russians in particular are very, very good at this.
And people would criticize – As an example, Voice of America.
Remember the old Voice of America?
It still exists.
joe rogan
What is it?
mike baker
But Voice of America, VOA, it's out there.
In the early days, the idea was to get news into the Soviet Union at the time.
So it was this broadcasting outlet that would provide news to parts of the world that were under communist influence.
And Was it designed to criticize the regimes that were – the Soviets or whomever was running that?
Yes, of course it was.
Was it designed to promote democracy and the idea of free thinking?
Of course it was, right?
So is that – Propaganda, is that covert action?
Well, yes, it is.
You know, is it designed to promote, you know, the idea of democracy and freedom?
Yes.
So can we, you know, is that better than the Russians trying with their covert action to criticize and sow disbelief in the US manufactured vaccines?
Yeah, I think I can make a relative judgment and say one is better than the other.
But again, going back to your thing about people saying, well, the US does it too.
There's degrees of what is You know, what is acceptable and what isn't?
What is right and what is wrong?
And, you know, it's a gray world out there.
There's no black and white.
But I guess what I'm, you know, so, yeah, I am fascinated by that question about, you know, does it frustrate you that people say America does it too?
joe rogan
Yeah.
mike baker
And I keep going back and people say, oh, you know, rose-colored glasses and all that bullshit about, you know.
But I've seen enough shit over there to think that, yes, we do try, we try to To do the right thing.
Or we try to mirror our values, right?
And what are our values?
Well, if you think about it and we say, that's fine.
I would rather have our values existing in a place like Iran, and the population would too, frankly, than the theocratic regime that exists there.
So, I was disappearing down a rabbit hole.
joe rogan
No, listen, it's a...
There's a weird narrative, a weird anti-American narrative that exists even inside of America, and that's oftentimes when you have children, they rebel against their parents.
I think there's a similar thing.
America's not perfect, but Iran executed an Olympic gold medalist in wrestling because he protested against the government, and that's a fact.
Yeah.
We were talking about China yesterday, what China's done in terms of there was that Jack Ma guy who disappeared for three months and came back and he's been, you know, whatever.
mike baker
He's towing the line.
He's a little more compliant now, let's put it that way.
joe rogan
I realize that he doesn't like prison.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
I realize they can disappear him for a few months.
mike baker
When was the last time anybody talked about the Uyghurs?
That's a fucking genocide.
joe rogan
We don't know what they're doing, right?
mike baker
We don't know.
We know it's bad, right?
But it's Xi's regime, right?
Look, that guy has spent years now cementing his place, and much like Putin did, but with more subtlety.
He's smarter than Putin.
Putin's a very smart politician, right?
He's kept himself in power in a place where it's a constant kabuki dance to try to figure out how to avoid your opponents.
Putin's proved himself to be a master at that.
But Xi has cemented his place in there.
He is the most important leader of China going generations back, right?
And he has done it through suppression.
He's done it through, you know, the buildup of the security surface, the internal security services, the suppression of information, oppression of journalists.
And so, yeah, do I think that Again, every time I start off on this path, I get these responses.
joe rogan
Do you read the responses?
Do you read that shit?
mike baker
Not really.
joe rogan
That's part of the problem, is reading that shit.
mike baker
Yeah, I know.
joe rogan
It's probably the Russians texting you.
mike baker
Yeah.
joe rogan
Send your messages.
mike baker
Yeah, let's face it.
joe rogan
Russians and Chinese are attacking you.
mike baker
My daughter worked and lived in China for a while.
She speaks Chinese, and she's a great kid.
But she would always be like, Dad, come on.
I've got to work and live over here.
And I said, well, look.
She gets it.
She got the joke.
She understood how oppressive that place could be because she had spent time over there.
I get questions from companies that are doing business over there or are about to start doing business over there.
And their questions are always typically in the same bucket, which is, how do we protect our information?
We're going to build a manufacturing facility over there.
Or we're going to build a lab over there to whatever it might be, pharmaceuticals or technology.
And the question is always, how do we go about securing our information?
And you don't, is the answer.
You build a facility over there, they're going to get it.
They're going to either get it through coercive means of saying, well, if you want business over here, this is what you have to sign up to.
We're going to have access to your code, or whatever it may be.
Or they're just going to steal it.
So again, going back to the same thing as we were.
We just have to be pragmatic, right?
I mean, stop acting as if, you know, the rest of the world is trying to come together in some community of nations, right?
And I think, actually, I think Biden gets it, right?
I mean, I don't know how long he's going to be in charge of the administration, but, you know...
joe rogan
I'm worried about him.
I mean, of course.
mike baker
I think he understands that he's a pragmatic guy.
He's a smart character, but he's got a lot of pressure on him politically from a variety of different angles.
Do you think he's lucid though?
Do I think he's lucid?
Yes, right now.
joe rogan
That's a long pause.
mike baker
Yeah, that's a long pause.
joe rogan
Every fucking couple of days, he gives a speech and it goes viral.
And the quote under the viral video is like, WTF? What is he saying?
mike baker
Poor guy.
I think he is.
joe rogan
He should be fishing.
mike baker
I shouldn't have paused that long.
I think he is.
I just think that his instincts are overridden.
By the priorities of the further left portion of the party.
And so, you know, for me...
joe rogan
Why do you think that is?
Do they think that that is more effective?
Do they think the further left, like, that the people in the moderate left will go along with the further left because at least it's far away from the far right?
mike baker
Yeah, I just think that, you know, the extremes always make the most noise, right?
They always make, whether it's the far right or the far left, right?
And so I think that they're the vocal, in a sense, minority, right?
They're the ones who are always going to be beating the drums and screaming about shit.
And it's like this thing, not to change subject entirely, but it's like if you look at the far right.
We had an incident in Idaho, in Boise, not that long ago, a few days ago, where some parents brought their kids to the statehouse, and they had a mask-burning ceremony.
joe rogan
I saw that.
Yeah.
You know who sent me that video?
Alex Jones.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Look, they're taking over.
mike baker
Oh my God.
joe rogan
They're figuring it out.
America's coming back.
mike baker
But you know what the secret to that is?
None of those people, and it was a small gathering, right?
It made news basically because they brought their kids, right?
And it's kind of wacky.
unidentified
It made news.
joe rogan
You know what didn't make news?
Bombing Syria.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Yeah, that didn't make news.
unidentified
No.
joe rogan
Both those things are happening at the same time.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
And this fucking ridiculous exercise of burning these cotton masks became important.
mike baker
But you know what?
In that crowd, in that small crowd, how many people were from Boise?
None.
So what you had was you had some people coming from out of town.
They're all Russians, that's right.
There are a lot of Chinese in there.
joe rogan
Where are they from?
mike baker
They were all from out of town.
joe rogan
Mountain towns.
mike baker
And none of them from a town where they had a mask mandate.
It wasn't like they were forced to wear masks.
They were just trying to make a point.
But because it was like one of those moments where you think, really, did you have to come?
jamie vernon
This guy in the back has a whole bag of them.
mike baker
Yeah.
unidentified
Did you have to?
mike baker
I mean, look at this.
joe rogan
I don't like how that one's hanging over the edge.
Throw it in there, girl.
mike baker
Get that in there.
Yeah, watch yourself.
Don't set that fleece on fire.
joe rogan
That's a nice girl.
mike baker
Be nice to her sister.
Oh, clap, clap, clap.
joe rogan
Come over here.
mike baker
Get those in there.
Come on.
Oh, here you go.
joe rogan
Put that mask in.
mike baker
That kid behind him wants to throw his in, but he's a little awkward.
joe rogan
Look at the guy there with the double flannel.
You fucking fashion victim.
mike baker
That's one of those shirt jackets.
joe rogan
That guy's a fashion criminal with his double flannel.
He doesn't know who he is.
mike baker
You know what?
Those shirt jackets that he's wearing, those were very popular in the 70s.
joe rogan
Look at the girl clapping.
mike baker
Yeah, I know.
Look at this.
Yeah, burn that mask.
Now get away from the fire.
joe rogan
What does the thing say?
What does the sign say?
Not suffering?
What does that say?
mike baker
Don't self-suffocate.
joe rogan
That lady is in the Westboro Baptist Church.
She's just there on vacation.
mike baker
So it's not like, again, not a big crowd, but it made the news because, and to your point, because it feeds some narrative, right?
It feeds some narrative.
joe rogan
Look at the lady in the back with the red lumberjack.
She had a fucking old school camera she was videoing.
She doesn't even have a phone.
mike baker
Oh wait, you're right.
She doesn't even have a fucking phone.
I'm surprised she didn't have one of those video cameras you'd have on your shoulder back in the old days.
joe rogan
She's got a Windows phone and it can't update.
mike baker
Oh god.
But it's not like those people live in a city where there's a mask mandate, right?
So they come into town, they do this thing, and it got...
And to your point, it got...
How much coverage?
That son of a bitch guy...
I heard from all sorts of people saying, what the hell's happening in Idaho?
joe rogan
That's just Facebook.
mike baker
Yeah.
joe rogan
People get excited.
They want to see...
Oh my God, it's going to go everywhere.
unidentified
Yeah.
mike baker
But it's...
joe rogan
It's going to be everywhere.
mike baker
It's...
You know what?
You go to Boise, you go to really most points of Idaho, everybody's wearing a mask.
They're doing the right thing.
They don't have to be told by the federal government to do the right thing.
They're just doing it because what the fuck.
joe rogan
There's this thing going on where there's all these different arguments and there's all these different narratives and all these different people that are arguing their points and no one knows exactly what the motives are, exactly who's doing what or why.
You're worried about the far left if you're in the far right, and you're worried about the left.
Everybody in the right is worried about the left.
Everybody in the left is worried about the right, and everybody in the center is trying to figure out where the fuck the rational people are.
One of the things that I'm worried about, and this is going to sound really weird, but I'm worried that what all of this dissent and confusion is going to bring about is the rise of Of some sort of technological symbiosis where we can read each other's minds, where we can understand each other better, and it's going to make us less human than we are currently.
I'm really worried about that.
I'm worried about these weird interfaces, like Elon Musk is trying to do this...
Neuralink thing.
And I think he's doing it because he wants to increase the bandwidth between human beings and information, which is a very noble concept.
You're going to make people smarter, more access to information.
One of the things he said to me, you're going to be able to talk without words.
mike baker
I think we're going to read each other's minds.
I don't know that there's a correlation between access to more information and getting smarter.
joe rogan
But this is what I think.
I think ultimately there's going to be some sort of technology that literally allows people to understand people's intent and to read their thoughts and ideas.
I think it's not that far away.
It might be 50 years, whatever it is, but we're moving in this direction where we're going to be less human.
And that might be because of all the bullshit that's been created by social media and by these conversations, by these algorithms that encourage people to be upset about things, that encourage outrage.
We're gonna move into some weird place where we're gonna have to change who we are in order to recognize what are the motives behind these different programs and campaigns that are forcing people into these situations where they hate each other.
mike baker
Yeah.
Yeah, as somebody who's taken the polygraph, I don't know, four dozen times.
joe rogan
I want to see if I can lie.
mike baker
Yeah, well, what I was going to say was, I mean, we used to say with the polygraph that, oh my God, can't you just put like a colander on our head and just read our thoughts?
Because that would be a lot more pleasant and easier, right?
joe rogan
Have you ever beaten a polygraph?
mike baker
Have you ever lied?
No.
I've had a lot of inconclusive.
Because the polygraph, the thing about the polygraph is, A, it's all physiological activity, right?
unidentified
It's blood pressure and sweat and, you know.
joe rogan
What is it?
It's like heart rate, right?
mike baker
Heart rate.
And it's an imperfect system.
joe rogan
Yeah, because it doesn't hold up in court.
unidentified
Right.
mike baker
Right.
And it's also entirely dependent on the experience and the abilities of the examiner, right?
And that varies because it's a human effort, right?
So you'll get a good polygrapher, you'll get one that's got less experience, you'll get one who's had a bad day, and it's just, you know, whatever.
Right.
And I've seen these things fail miserably.
I mean, obviously in the intel community, in the agency, we've had people...
Aldrich Ames, right, is a good example.
joe rogan
Who's that?
mike baker
He was one of our traders, right?
So Aldrich Ames went to work for the enemy.
joe rogan
Which enemy?
mike baker
The Russians.
And sold out...
Caused a fair number of deaths.
Hanson is another good example from the FBI. Ed Lee Howard.
I mean, oh my God, Jim Nicholson, all these people that were able to beat the polygraph because essentially they're psychopaths, right?
They don't see the difference between right and wrong.
So the polygraph doesn't have any influence on If you're a Quaker, if you walk around and you feel bad about everything, right?
Ah, God, I remember I took those cookies when I was a kid and I shouldn't have.
joe rogan
I plugged that toaster in.
I fucked up.
mike baker
Yeah, I mean, it doesn't...
unidentified
The old toaster incident.
joe rogan
I used that electricity.
I'm a bad Amish.
mike baker
I'm a bad person.
I shouldn't have done it.
So if you carry that with you, then yeah, you're going to have a problem with a polygraph because you're going to be thinking about all these things.
And I've had...
Back in the day, you know, you take the polygraph and the examiner be like, oh my god, we're gonna take it again.
It's inconclusive.
Look, we're just worried about, have you sold secrets to the enemy?
That's all.
We don't worry about any of the other shit, right?
And yet, if you get somebody who doesn't think that way, like Aldrich Ames or some of these people, then yeah, they'll pass the polygraph.
So in our minds, we were always thinking, well, just come up with something better.
Now they're getting there, right?
They're getting to the ability to, with scans, brain scans.
joe rogan
FMRI, right?
mike baker
Yeah.
So you're getting closer, but it's not one of those things that you're going to subject your workforce to.
It's costly.
It's very difficult to do.
So you use it for a high-value target, for instance, like a KSM or one of these cats from the old terrorist days.
So I guess my point with that is, we're still relying on the old school technology of the polygraph for the most part.
joe rogan
And we know it can be beaten.
mike baker
And we know it can be beaten.
And it can be beaten if you feel no difference between right and wrong.
If you just walk through life and you don't give a fuck, then the polygraph isn't much of an issue for you.
But luckily, most people aren't like that.
Most people will get hooked up And they'll start reacting, right?
And that's a good thing.
joe rogan
But what about false memories?
Because it's been shown that particularly through hypnotic regression that you can introduce false memories to a person.
So if you say to a, you know, you can create a memory in a person, you know, like, you know, whatever, about seeing Bigfoot or whatever it is.
And that person can really believe it.
It's been proven that they can do that.
mike baker
Yeah.
joe rogan
Especially under hypnosis.
So if you can hypnotize someone, get them, To believe a false narrative and then hook them up to a polygraph and then describe that false narrative, they'll show that they believe that thing, even though that thing is not really true.
mike baker
Yeah.
And that's true.
If you talk to somebody who said, okay, I was kidnapped by a UFO, by aliens.
Yeah.
They're going to believe it.
They're not going to react.
So what do you do with a polygraph?
Again, people are like, oh, we're having a lesson on the polygraph.
But what you do is you have other information that you've developed about that individual that you use.
So it's a tool in the kit bag that you use, at least in the intel community, to determine credibility.
joe rogan
It's just one tool.
mike baker
It's just one tool.
You do not want to completely rely on the polygraph.
But I have seen it work.
Well, and then I've seen it fail miserably, right?
So, you know, what I would like to see, I mean, I look at it from a counterintelligence perspective, if we can create something that can read people's minds, Great, because you know what that does is that allows us to identify the traitor within the group, the mole, a lot quicker.
And counterintelligence operations are always an enormous lift.
People say, like, I can't believe you allowed whomever, you know, Hanson, to operate, you know, within the Bureau and have all those lives lost and betray us to the Russians for all those years.
And my response is always, you know, I can't believe we caught him because it's a very heavy lift.
It's a very difficult thing to do.
But to your point, yeah, do I want us to develop that ability in general?
No.
joe rogan
It's inevitable.
I think it's inevitable.
I think it's coming whether we want it or not.
I think if you look at the...
If you go back in time and you go to Martin Luther and you go to the printing press and the ability to translate the Bible into a phonetic language and the changes that that had on society and you move that into the future and you go to the free press and then you go to the internet and you go to social media and you go to where we are today...
One of the things that's common, the thing that it all shares in common is that there's a course in this path that seems to be inevitable, is that there's a shrinking of the distance between human beings and information.
And information is far more accessible than it's ever been before.
And there is some resistance to that, right?
Like there's some censorship in terms of like what you're allowed to search and what you're not allowed to search, which we talked about earlier with Google and DuckDuckGo and things are curated and we're all aware of the problems with big tech censoring certain voices on social media because they're concerned with the narrative that's going to be...
Because they're thinking about it in short-term gains and losses.
But ultimately...
All technology is leading into, there's a boundary between human beings and information.
It's getting smaller and smaller and smaller, to the point where information is going to be instantaneously accessible.
whether it is a decade from now or a month from now or 100 years from now, whatever it is, it is inevitable, in my opinion, that as technology continues to progress and innovation continues to be something that people value and that is prized that as technology continues to progress and innovation continues to be something that people value and that is prized and that is rewarded, we're going to move to a position where You're going to be able to understand people's intent.
We're not going to trust people who aren't willing to do that.
And it's going to help people in a lot of ways because lying doesn't just hurt the people that you lie to.
It hurts you.
Because you're living some bullshit life where you're trying to pretend that you're something that you're not.
And I think ultimately people are going to get that.
And there's going to be people that fall by the wayside.
And there's going to be people that rise because of it.
And it's going to help culture ultimately.
But I think one of the big things it's going to do, it's going to eliminate propaganda.
And that's why I think it's going to be embraced.
Because you can't have propaganda if people can actually understand what people's intentions are.
In a clear, like, you know how you have, like, if you enable location finding on your phone, and you say, hey, I'm in Russia, and you're like, no, motherfucker, you're in Oklahoma.
It says it on your picture.
You piece of shit.
This is fake.
mike baker
Well, who's to say Oklahoma's a little bit of a foreign destination?
joe rogan
It depends on where you are and who you are.
mike baker
Yeah, it's true.
joe rogan
How dare you.
mike baker
See, I, no, I like Oklahoma.
joe rogan
It's foreign if you live in Connecticut.
Yeah.
mike baker
Who wants to be there anymore?
joe rogan
Connecticut's a rough spot right now.
Didn't they just decide to open wide up?
mike baker
I do not know.
joe rogan
I think they did too.
Didn't they, Jamie?
I think Connecticut opened wide up too, which is odd.
unidentified
We left Connecticut to go to Idaho and I've never been happier.
joe rogan
Connecticut is a highway.
Any city there is barely a city and it's barely a state.
It's a highway between Boston and New York.
mike baker
See, I will disagree on the – it's going to be a benefit overall.
I don't think it's going to be a benefit.
I think we – it's going to happen.
I don't disagree with that idea that it's just going to happen.
But I think the quicker and the more access that we have to information has not done us any favors to date.
Hasn't it though?
No.
joe rogan
People are way more educated and informed than people were a thousand years from now.
mike baker
I'm very conflicted on this.
Is the potential there for good?
Yes.
But if you look at the reality of it all, look how divisive we are now.
joe rogan
But maybe isn't that because we don't have access to all the information so we're concerned and we're worried?
mike baker
Yeah.
I mean, maybe part of it is how much credit you give to individual humans, but I just think that we haven't done ourselves any favors yet.
Maybe we learn, and maybe, yes, maybe there's one day when it's all instantaneous, and so therefore everybody's showing their cards all at the same time, and there's no issues.
But I just have a feeling that so far...
You know, so far, I don't think the internet has really...
This is going to sound like I'm some sort of Luddite, but in terms of our children, in terms of general society and the way that we deal with each other...
I don't know that it's done us more good than harm so far.
I just have this feeling that the way that we are currently, right, and people, because people, the human condition is still going to be that they're going to, they're going to go to wherever they believe, right?
So the fact that I can, I know your intentions doesn't mean it's going to make me altruistic and understanding, right?
That's not human condition.
It's just going to make me harden my opinion or figure out some way to get around The aspect of what your intentions are.
Maybe I'm more cynical than you are.
joe rogan
Let me push back on that.
Isn't that a lot of that fear and a lot of that is distrust of other people?
There's a lot of the way we interact with each other.
A lot of it is based on fear and distrust.
mike baker
Yeah, but I don't think the additional access to information and instantaneous understanding of all...
I don't think that's going to make us...
Somehow it's going to make the human condition better.
I don't think it's going to make us more, again, more open to new ideas or others' ideas or opinions.
I just have a feeling we're going to figure out a workaround, and it may harden our positions.
And...
I don't know.
joe rogan
But maybe there's a workaround to the workaround.
Like, let's go back to the people in the 1950s that were terrible.
unidentified
The old triple fake.
joe rogan
The people in the 1950s that were terrified about rock and roll.
They were terrified.
Elvis Presley's shaking his hips.
You can't show it on television.
There was a real argument.
There was a real argument that that guy, he's swinging his cock on TV and these girls are screaming.
mike baker
Not literally swinging his cock.
joe rogan
What's that?
jamie vernon
The porn.
joe rogan
What?
jamie vernon
It led to, like, dirty porn, though?
joe rogan
No, there was porn before that.
jamie vernon
I don't know what I mean, but, like, more and more and more.
Elvis?
mike baker
Elvis did, yeah.
Elvis was directly responsible for...
joe rogan
A lot of porn.
mike baker
A lot of porn.
jamie vernon
With the Neuralink thing, there's going to be software and hardware issues.
I'm trying to piggyback off what he's saying that would be very hard knowing what we have seen over the past 20, 30 years...
Hard to keep that out of there.
Like, people would be able to mask their feelings from being seen by downloading the whole thing.
unidentified
Yeah, for now.
joe rogan
For now, but, you know, that's also, again, like, location services and, like, a lot of other things.
Like, there's these little hurdles that come up that keep people from truly understanding the nature of an actual thing that you're experiencing.
mike baker
Look, from my perspective, from an operational perspective, and from my business perspective, what do we do?
We're involved in a lot of investigations, a lot of fraud concerns, a lot of asset tracing, all these things that my folks do.
Hey, great!
I'd love to be able to know immediately what somebody's intentions are.
That makes the job so much easier.
I guess what I'm saying is I think it doesn't change the base nature of human characteristics.
And so I don't think it's going to make us suddenly come together as a community and understand and get together.
I think what's happened is the ability to access more information has just driven us apart and created these silos where we all just sit and listen to whatever...
Affirms our opinion and I don't think that you know a neural link or anything else is going to suddenly make us better people and I think it's going to Not be I don't know I and what the fuck do I know?
I'm not a neuroscientist, so I don't know I'm not a psychiatrist.
I don't know what the fuck do I know but my yeah, what the fuck do I know but my my Experiences so far have told me that oftentimes people's intentions aren't particularly good and And that we have to be pragmatic and sometimes being cynical is not a bad thing.
No.
joe rogan
I don't think it's a bad thing either, but I think that what we're dealing with is there's a lot of confusion and there's a lot of distrust and there's a lot of conflict.
There's a lot of these things going on.
A lot of it is based on the unknown.
A lot of it is like, we don't know what the Russians are doing.
We don't know what the far left is doing.
We don't know what the far right is doing.
We don't know what the Chinese are doing.
And there's a problem with...
Our own biology.
It takes a long time for human beings to evolve biologically.
Like, there's not much difference between our DNA and the DNA of people that lived 10,000 years ago.
mike baker
Yeah.
joe rogan
But there's a massive difference in the world that we exist in.
mike baker
You're saying we're Neanderthals?
Because I've heard recently that that's bad.
joe rogan
Neanderthal thinking is bad.
mike baker
Neanderthal thinking is bad.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
As we move forward, technology is increasing at a pace that biology can't possibly keep up with.
So we are left with these tribal biological instincts that were developed and that evolved when people were in tribes worried about other tribes coming over and attacking us.
We were worried about the unknown.
We were worried about animals.
We were worried about attacks.
We're worried about, you know, the sky turning into a monster that we didn't understand.
And now we know so much more, but we still have the same human reward systems.
We still have the same DNA and biology that was...
Essentially programmed to keep us alive during these ignorant situations.
We didn't really know, but now we know a lot.
But now we know so much we have this ability to communicate that's unprecedented.
And it's evolving and changing.
The only way I see that we can keep up with it is if we do something to interface with the technology in a way that's unprecedented.
In a way that's different than just looking at a screen Or looking at a phone because you're still using the same biology and you're interfacing with new information when you're using a phone.
And that's also created a lot of confusion.
You know, that's part of the reasons why people isolate and insulate and get into these fucking, these little bubbles of information and thought.
And, you know, they insulate themselves from opposing ideas and it gives them comfort and it makes them tribal.
It makes them more tribal.
And I think it's not a coincidence that the more technology increases and the more access to information increases, the more likely people are to get into these weird fucking groups where they have echo chambers.
I think one of the only ways it's going to move us out of that is some sort of technology that alleviates a lot of our concerns by giving us information about intent, give us information about what people's real thoughts are and real intentions are, and let people know that most of us want the same thing.
Most of us really, truly want the same thing.
And a lot of the conflict that's been exploited, whether it's by social media algorithms or it's by foreign countries or bad entities, they've done so by preying upon these biological limitations.
mike baker
Yeah, I don't know.
Maybe I don't want to live in a world where I can read people's intents, right?
I mean, because part of it is sort of like, you take it down to the base level in terms of just relationships, right?
I think part of the excitement of life is not knowing, in a way, right?
That sounds maybe stupid.
joe rogan
Sounds like a married guy.
mike baker
Yeah, it sounds like a married guy.
joe rogan
If you were single...
jamie vernon
I was trying to think about what age do you do this if you do it to a baby because then you could hear what your baby's thinking but also you're going to have to replace that multiple times as they grow older or their brain might not develop correctly because there's already an interference.
joe rogan
An interference?
How so?
jamie vernon
Because there's wires in the baby's brain that's not biologically Oh, yeah.
joe rogan
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
The wires thing is like...
I think the wires thing is like a wired phone.
You know, it's like, you know, like right now we don't have to have a wire.
I don't have a phone in my house, like a wired phone.
mike baker
Yeah, nobody's got a landline anymore.
joe rogan
No, yeah.
But we used to.
You know, I think this wire thing is like a shitty technology.
jamie vernon
Okay, well, you still have to have a...
Let's just get...
The wire's a sensor then.
It's still close to your brain and you have to cut the hole in the head and...
joe rogan
For now.
But remember when we were talking with Jamie Messel yesterday about CRISPR? What if CRISPR gets to the point where there's some new technology that we literally develop the human mind to the point where it can access Wi-Fi, where it can access...
Some new software or some new hardware that allows people to communicate with each other without any...
No filter.
No filter between us.
Whether it's language...
mike baker
I will say this.
It sounds awful.
What you're describing...
I'm a simpleton.
I admit it.
joe rogan
You sound like a guy in the 1950s who was a pastor who was working at Elvis Presley, shaking his hips.
This is the end of civilization!
mike baker
I loved Elvis.
But what I'm saying is, I think...
What I want to grow up as a kid today compared to when I grew up, which was we didn't have access to that news.
We had like three channels for news, right?
Everybody had a shared experience in a sense, right?
Now, am I saying – I'm not somebody who looks back at the past and goes, oh my god, it was so wonderful.
There were problems then too.
Of course it was.
And so, you know, but – As an example, was there a benefit to having much of the country sitting down for the 5 o'clock news or the 11 o'clock news, and everybody had a shared experience.
They were getting the same news.
Now they would process it differently based on their own personal life experience and where they were sitting in life, but there was a shared moment in time.
This is a small example.
I look at that and I go, you know, was there some benefit to that?
And I think there was, because now you don't have that.
And that creates in part what we've got today with this divisiveness that exists.
And everybody's sitting in their trenches.
It's like World War I, right?
Everybody's throwing grenades.
Nobody wants to come out into no man's land.
And then I go back to the other part of it, which is still more touchy-feely, admittedly, which is...
I don't want to know.
There's an element of life that it's sort of the unknown.
I don't want to walk around knowing exactly what your intention is or what Jamie's intention is.
It's not a concern of mine.
Life can be pretty simple if you think about it.
If you think, what am I interested in?
I'm interested in trying to be a good person, raising my family so that the kids are good people and productive people.
The idea of getting to some point in life where we don't have to talk to communicate, right?
I mean, no.
I'm not a buyer on that one.
joe rogan
This is where we're headed, Mike Baker.
We're going to be these little aliens.
unidentified
I know.
mike baker
This is our future.
Remember the Star Trek?
I think it was a two-part episode where they all just kind of communicate without talking?
That's fucked up.
Again, I don't want to...
joe rogan
But the problem with the scenario that you're painting in these rose-colored glasses is that there was a small group of people that curated that information that was portrayed on the 5 o'clock news.
That's the problem.
It's like, then you relied on government entities and propaganda, and you could have people with unscrupulous ideas, and that's what led to Stalin, Russia, and Laos, China.
mike baker
But are you saying that now it's better in terms of politics and the governments and our reliance on government and the way that we have our information?
joe rogan
It's better in terms of whether or not we know the government's full of shit, because we're way more aware Way more aware of corruption.
mike baker
I won't disagree with that.
But you know what?
Part of that is an investigative responsibility, right?
Part of that is the ability of individuals to question what's happening.
That never changes, right?
That's been the same now as it was Yeah, but they have the penny press.
joe rogan
No, they have access to Google and DuckDuckGo and search engines.
mike baker
Are you an investor in DuckDuckGo?
joe rogan
No, I'm not.
mike baker
Oh, okay.
joe rogan
Just checking.
Nothing to do with it, but I like it.
I'm a believer in unbiased sources, and I think there's only a few of them out there.
It's one of the reasons why I like Apple over Androids.
They don't share your information the same.
And I think there's real value in that, because human beings have We've been using these things, whether it's Google or Facebook, and we always thought that that was the product, that we were using these things, and that these things, Facebook was the product, Google was the product, and then somewhere along the line we realized, no, we're the product.
Our data is the product, and we're selling.
But by using these things for free, by using whatever it is, their message services and posting on these things, we think we're getting something for free, but we're not.
Because we're giving up our data, we're giving up all of our metadata and all of our information, and through these algorithms they've been able to amass Insane amounts of wealth just by using our information.
mike baker
Well, and it's something that, yeah, I always laugh when people talk about the government, you know, collecting information on you.
They say, government's not the problem.
The U.S. government's not the issue.
joe rogan
Nothing in comparison to social media corporations.
mike baker
It can't organize panic in a doomed submarine.
Yeah, so, I mean, it's the corporations.
joe rogan
And these new corporations.
That 25 years ago didn't even exist.
There was no such thing as Facebook and Google.
They didn't have an influence on world ideas.
They didn't have an influence on the way people express narratives.
There was no influence by tech companies other than selling you cool products.
25 years ago, all they did is sell you things that you thought would enhance your life.
mike baker
I guess what I'm saying is I don't disagree in the sense of – again, going back to the operational perspective, there's a lot of advantage, right, from somebody who is worried about security and national security concerns.
Hey, there's a lot of advantage to getting to that point.
I just don't think it's going to improve the human condition necessarily.
I don't think there's going to be the upside that necessarily comes from – Instantaneous, immediate access to understanding people's plans and intentions and information.
I don't think it's going to make us less tribal.
joe rogan
This was the same argument they had about the printing press.
It really is.
mike baker
No, I've just been caught.
I've been caught short there.
I can't spot the lie in what you just said.
joe rogan
If you follow like Steven Pinker's work and you follow like the analysis of violence and crime as it relates to the progress of civilization and humanity, there's a path.
And this is not to discount all the situations where people have been the victim of violence and the victim of crime.
But there's less instances of it statistically.
If you had an overlook, if you were looking at the earth from above and you looked at a trend in terms of the way civilization is heading, as technology progresses, as access to food and resources and information progress, you have less instances of violence Less instances of crime and less instances of all the undesirable things.
Whether it's sexual assault or racism, all the things, they occur less over time.
And I think that as technology increases, this will be a trend that continues to go in that direction.
This is just me guessing based on the work of other people far smarter than me that have gone over this sort of pattern and looked at it in terms of like, where are we headed?
We're not headed in a bad place.
People can concentrate on all the bad things that still do exist, whether it's sexual harassment in the workplace or whether it's violence or whatever the thing you want to concentrate on.
There's 8 billion people on this planet.
You can find massive amounts of data that can support your idea that this is still a problem, and it's always going to be still a problem until there's no problems.
Until we reach utopia, and I don't know if we're ever going to reach utopia.
mike baker
No, we're not going to.
joe rogan
Unless we turn into these guys.
mike baker
Unless we turn into those guys.
joe rogan
These little genital-less, mouthless little mind readers.
mike baker
By the way, we're getting ready to film a second season of Black Files Declassified.
unidentified
Do you have any UFO stuff?
mike baker
We do.
We're going to have a couple of really good episodes on that.
joe rogan
I've been very underwhelmed lately by people who are involved in the UFO world, unfortunately.
mike baker
I think this is going to be good.
We're visiting...
We're going to have a couple of good episodes on this.
Where are you visiting?
I'm prescribed from saying the exact show map right now, but I've seen the...
joe rogan
You're prescribed?
mike baker
Well, I've seen the topics, and I'm not allowed to talk about it.
I am allowed to say that the first season of Black Files Declassified is available on Discovery+.
joe rogan
But you're not allowed to talk about what happens?
mike baker
About what we're going to film in the next season?
No.
Which is fine.
But...
A, I don't think we're heading towards utopia.
I don't think that's ever going to happen.
Again, maybe I'm too cynical about the human condition and the way that we always find a way to fuck things up.
joe rogan
Let me ask you this, though.
In your home, I bet it's pretty utopian.
In terms of, like, if you think about the way people lived as cavemen versus the way you live today...
mike baker
Oh, sure.
In your home.
joe rogan
In your home with your family.
mike baker
Yeah, the invention of the wheel.
joe rogan
Pretty utopian.
mike baker
And the invention of the toaster.
I mean, it's all good stuff.
joe rogan
Electricity, warmth, hot showers.
mike baker
Yes.
joe rogan
Pretty goddamn good.
mike baker
It's very, very good.
unidentified
Do you think it's going to continue along those same lines?
Um...
mike baker
Yeah, but that's different than me sitting here and reading your intent immediately.
That's separate from that, right?
Now, again, if I'm concerned about finding a trader in my Intel organization, I like the idea very, very much.
But if I'm just some dude, right, who's interacting with people on a daily basis, do I find that...
Less appealing?
Yeah, I do.
There's not necessarily a logic to what I'm saying.
I know that.
joe rogan
Listen, you have a handicap.
You're not even American.
That's part of the problem.
unidentified
You got over here a couple of weeks ago.
Like some fucking European-Australian character.
mike baker
I know.
You probably liked the European Union idea.
I don't know.
joe rogan
I didn't even pay attention to that.
I'm too busy.
Some people didn't like it.
mike baker
Hey, you mentioned, by the way, I just filed it away and it just popped up in my data bank again, Syria.
You mentioned Syria?
Yeah.
It's a very good point.
A, there's very little attention paid to it.
joe rogan
People were paying attention to Ted Cruz trying to go to Cancun.
They didn't give a fuck about Syria.
mike baker
At what point didn't his chief of staff or somebody, right, who was booking his tickets, didn't say, you know, Ted, this is probably the optic isn't looking good.
So maybe you shouldn't do it.
joe rogan
Why can't he wear, like, a better mask?
mike baker
Did he wear a mask at all?
joe rogan
Yeah, but I mean, like, if you're gonna wear a mask, like, get someone to fucking dye your hair blue or something.
mike baker
Yeah, you can't hide that Ted Cruz look.
He's very discernible.
joe rogan
Shave your head!
mike baker
Wear an eyepatch.
joe rogan
Yeah, do something.
mike baker
Come up with something.
joe rogan
It's just like, if you're going to go to Cancun in the middle of a deep freeze, and then also be aware that you can't say, I was going to head right back when people can fucking research your ticket and find out you actually weren't coming back until Saturday.
mike baker
It was weird.
It was strange.
It was a bizarrely bumbled job on his part and his staff's part, right?
Because most of these people are kind of controlled by their staffs.
joe rogan
How about his wife's got a bunch of friends that are fucking rats?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
How about that?
They sold her down the river.
Gave up all her text messages talking about how it's freezing.
But listen, if you have the means and you are stuck in a place where there's no power and the power's not coming back on and you can just fly to Cancun, I get the optics for Ted, but his family should absolutely be allowed to do that, if they have the money.
It's not like you shouldn't have to stay and suffer because everybody else has to stay and suffer.
mike baker
No, if you're going into public service, though, you should.
He should.
No, his family should, too, because there's no dividing line.
People don't perceive the difference between Ted's wife and kids went to Cancun.
They're not going to then say, but Ted stayed here, so that's good.
The headline's going to be, ah, he sent his family to Cancun.
So whether he went or not, it didn't matter.
So that's why I say it was a stupid, stupid political move on his part, and a very amateur move.
joe rogan
But if his family went without him, do you think it would be...
I mean, I don't think anyone would even pay attention.
If he stayed home in a fucking tent with a mug lux on, a beaver hat...
I mean, you might as well be in a tent if your fucking house has no heat.
mike baker
Yeah, I know.
Hey, look, in Connecticut, where we used to live, apparently when you moved to Connecticut, you signed some agreement, I don't remember signing it, that said every winter the power is going to go out at least four or five times during the winter and for days at a time.
I mean, not just a couple of days.
The first winter we were in Connecticut, because all the utilities are above ground, right?
So, you know, they get a lot of storms.
Trees come down.
So the next thing you know, the entire town and a bunch of other towns are without power.
It is a common occurrence there.
But the difference is, as opposed to here in Texas, you're used to it.
You're prepared for it.
So what happens is you get generators and you get food and you understand it's going to happen, right?
You have a fireplace.
It's going to be okay, even if the power is out for six or seven or eight days, which it It is, right?
It's not an uncommon occurrence.
So, I mean, I remember we didn't have a generator the first winter, right?
And I remember looking outside.
Power was out for a few days.
Other people got their lights on, right?
And our neighbors were great, and they'd say, come on over.
Just stay at our house for a few days until, you know, and that's what we would do.
And then eventually, you know, my wife, the finest person I know, you know, she said...
She knows not about that handy, but she said, you're going to go get a generator for the family, right?
Maybe take care of the family.
So I went to a Home Depot to buy a...
joe rogan
Did you just talk like a foreigner?
Home Depot?
What the fuck is a Depot?
What is it?
mike baker
It's a Depot.
joe rogan
Jamie, talk to him.
jamie vernon
I heard it.
unidentified
I was going to let it slide.
mike baker
It's Depot.
joe rogan
Home Depot.
mike baker
Depot.
joe rogan
You fucking foreigner.
Jesus Christ.
mike baker
You go to Home...
unidentified
Don't they teach you in the CIA? You go to Home Depot.
joe rogan
Yeah.
mike baker
Talk like a goddamn American.
joe rogan
I'm an American.
I was born here, bro.
mike baker
There I was in my beaver hat, and I went to Home Depot with my buckskin jacket.
But I went there, and I remember walking in, and I thought, I gotta buy a generator.
joe rogan
They're already bought.
mike baker
Well, there was like one left, right?
And the manager, because I approached some guy and I said, look, I'm looking to buy a generator.
And the guy says, well, you know, I'll show you where they are, but I don't think we have any left.
And there was a fight going on over the last generator.
Like we were about to face the zombie apocalypse, right?
There was a battle going on in this Home Depot where...
Where they were going to come to, as we used to say, fisticuffs.
And so I remember standing there looking at them thinking, you've got to be shitting me.
And then I slipped the manager some money and he took me out back and gave me the last generator.
unidentified
Really?
joe rogan
How much did you have to give him?
mike baker
Eh, not that much compared to the cost of the generator.
Point being though is then I had the generator and then I realized after running it for a while that it needs oil.
I didn't know that until it burned out.
joe rogan
Oh no!
mike baker
Yeah, because I'm not that handy.
But I guess the point being is We weren't used to it, right?
We didn't have a problem with it.
And then you look at what happens in Texas, and I had friends on the East Coast that were saying, I want a bunch of pussies, right?
They're all complaining because they don't...
And I said, look, it's Texas.
When was the last time they had a deep freeze like this, right?
It's all what you're used to and what you're prepared to get ready for.
joe rogan
It is.
mike baker
So I don't know where I was going with that story.
joe rogan
And most people around here didn't know how to drive in it, which is...
Really?
Yeah.
mike baker
Of course.
Yeah, that's a good point.
joe rogan
They didn't have the tires for it.
They didn't have four-wheel drive.
Or if they did have four-wheel drive, there's a lot of guys with trucks that have these pickup trucks, but they're two-wheel drive trucks.
mike baker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And we get that, too.
joe rogan
Trucks are the worst.
They have real fucking weight in the back.
You have to have sandbags back there or something.
mike baker
You've got to put sand back there.
Put at least 100 and 150 pounds of sand in the back, and then you're good.
But...
We've got people that move up to Idaho, particularly from California, that get that first winter.
And we don't plow the roads, right?
The general feeling is, if you don't know how to drive in the snow, then stay home.
So nobody's plowing the roads.
We still get people out there that don't know how to drive.
joe rogan
They don't plow the roads?
mike baker
No.
If it's a lot in Boise, then they'll get out there and they'll give it an effort.
joe rogan
Do you have a serious vehicle up there?
mike baker
Yeah, we've got nothing but I got a truck.
What do you drive?
It's a GMC. Some fucking foreign piece of shit?
Oh, it's a GMC. Denali.
And we got a suburban.
I got a Wagoneer.
I got a 91 Wagoneer.
I told you that before.
unidentified
Oh, that's right.
mike baker
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
With the wood panels?
mike baker
Yeah, exactly.
I know.
I look pretty fucking good in my beaver hat driving that Wagoneer.
And then I just bought a 1965 MGB. Oh, really?
From a guy in the UK, from a Vicar.
joe rogan
From the little convertible ones?
mike baker
A Vicar, yeah, yeah.
It's a beautiful car.
Oh, man.
joe rogan
Don't they have, like, wooden frames or something?
mike baker
No, no.
That's an old-ass car, man.
That's an old car.
No, 65, it's a brilliant piece of machinery.
And this one's been...
unidentified
Oh, yeah.
mike baker
Look at that.
joe rogan
That's a sweet little vehicle right there.
Look at the wire wheels.
Nice.
mike baker
Google 1965 MGB. What's this?
Yes, there you go.
It's beautiful.
So I'm going to pick it up in Liverpool.
joe rogan
Oh, look at that black one.
You're literally going to go to England to get it?
mike baker
Actually, bring it back.
Jamie, I think you've got my car.
joe rogan
The green one?
mike baker
The green one, yeah.
Really?
joe rogan
Oh, look at that.
That's beautiful.
mike baker
So I'm going to take him over to England.
We're going to drive it around for a while, and then I'm going to ship it back.
Now, this is not a car you drive in the winter in Idaho, but in the summertime, It's going to be great.
And Sluggo, my middle boy, has already claimed it.
He said, when you guys die...
He talks like that all the time.
When you guys die, do I get the house?
What the hell?
joe rogan
You better have AAA for that fucking car.
Yeah, yeah.
That's a British car, right?
mike baker
Yeah, it is.
joe rogan
They're not known for their reliability.
What is it about the Brits where they make shitbag cars?
They're your people.
mike baker
They make great...
They make very solid cars.
We made the Spitfire from World War II, you know.
joe rogan
They make great cars, but they don't have the best reliability ratings.
mike baker
You're thinking about Italian cars.
You're thinking about Fiats.
joe rogan
Listen, I'm Italian.
I'll tell you right now.
I don't buy my people's cars.
I don't trust anybody like me to make a fucking car.
But the Land Rover, they make a fucking hell of a car, but they break all the time.
I looked at the new Defender.
Have you seen the new Defender?
mike baker
Get yourself an old Defender now.
That's what lasts forever.
Jesus, get the fuck out of here.
joe rogan
Those things break constantly.
mike baker
It's the difference between buying an old Land Cruiser, Toyota Land Cruiser, and a new Land Cruiser.
The old ones, they will stay on the road forever.
As long as you take care of them, you've got to take care of them.
joe rogan
You're a good guy, but you're talking out of your ass.
Let me tell you something right now.
You just fucked up and you stepped into my realm.
Those new Land Cruisers are very...
Virtually bulletproof.
Those fucking things last forever.
mike baker
You can't fix anything on those things.
joe rogan
You don't have to.
They don't break.
The old Land Cruiser's also virtually bulletproof.
mike baker
Don't you run a car you could fix?
joe rogan
There's an old saying that they used to say, in Australia in particular, if you want to go into the bush, you bring a Range Rover.
If you want to get out of the bush, you bring a Land Cruiser.
Because those Range Rovers suck.
They're beautiful.
They look cool.
It makes it look like you're an artist.
You've got one of them fucking moleskin notebooks and you're writing deep thoughts about your soul.
mike baker
Oh, you've got to solve a murder mystery in a village somewhere.
joe rogan
Yeah, that's a 100 series, right?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Isn't that?
Yeah, I have an 80 series.
mike baker
But that's right there.
Look at that.
Yeah, that one right there.
unidentified
Ah.
mike baker
That's sweet.
That one's going to stay on the road forever.
joe rogan
Nice.
mike baker
Yeah.
joe rogan
What year is that?
That's a 70 series, right?
What is that?
Yep.
mike baker
Nice.
joe rogan
See?
I know my shit.
I have an 80 series.
I have an 80 series.
mike baker
Land Cruiser.
joe rogan
Yeah.
1995. It was souped up by Icon, so it's got a supercharged Corvette engine in it.
unidentified
Holy shit.
joe rogan
Yeah, I was driving around while everybody was freaking out about the snow.
unidentified
I was like, ha ha!
joe rogan
I got locking differentials.
You can find mine, Jamie.
Find mine in there because it's fucking souped up and it's lifted so it can go over everything and it's got like a fucking...
That's it on the far left.
That's it right there.
That's my car.
That's it.
Yeah.
That fucking thing.
That fucking thing.
I loved driving that thing around.
mike baker
Do you still have it?
unidentified
Yes!
joe rogan
I drove it around during...
That's my buddy, Jonathan Ward.
He moved out here, too.
I don't think he wants anybody to know.
Too late.
mike baker
I'm sure.
Just between you and me, nobody else knows.
joe rogan
But that fucking thing, man, you drive that anywhere.
It's awesome.
I mean, it was so sturdy and sure-footed.
And it's got solid axles and...
You know, front and rear.
Look at that.
Supercharged Corvette engines.
mike baker
In some of our places overseas, I mean, Land Cruiser was all we had.
unidentified
They're the best.
mike baker
We'd show up somewhere and, you know, that was sort of the fleet of vehicles that we had available to us to get around.
joe rogan
That's why.
mike baker
And yeah, no, they're great vehicles.
But don't be fucking with the Defender.
joe rogan
That's a great vehicle.
Listen, the new Defender is a...
Google 2021 Range Rover Defender V8. They have a new one that has 500-plus horsepower.
90 series.
90 series is the one.
It's a fucking beautiful car, but they have literally the worst reliability ratings that are out there.
That's a fact.
mike baker
Look at that.
joe rogan
Come on.
That's a beautiful goddamn car.
That truck goes zero to 60 in a little over four seconds.
518 horsepower.
mike baker
You can go over there and pick up a Land Rover and go through their testing facility.
joe rogan
Yeah, and then it'll break down before you even get home.
You won't even be able to get it back to the fucking factory.
mike baker
Well, anyway, that fucking 65 MGB is going to be sweet.
And yes, you're right.
But you know what I can do with it?
I can also work on it.
joe rogan
Bring your AAA card.
mike baker
I can jack that thing up and work on it because I don't need a computer system to figure out what's wrong with it.
joe rogan
That's true.
That's true.
You know it.
It's broken and there it goes.
Replace the engine.
Well, I know what's going on.
mike baker
Yeah.
Anyway.
joe rogan
They're beautiful cars.
And there's some real value to the simplicity of those old cars.
Like you could work on the carburetor.
You could figure out, oh, I'll replace the spark plugs.
You could do things to them.
mike baker
Yeah.
I had a 67 Triumph one time.
unidentified
Oh.
mike baker
That's where it got stolen.
joe rogan
See, you really are, Britt.
You like those old shitboxes.
unidentified
I do like them.
mike baker
All right.
I give up.
You're right.
joe rogan
I think they're cool.
Look at that, man.
mike baker
I know.
joe rogan
Look at that.
unidentified
God, that's beautiful.
mike baker
It's like driving a go-kart.
You're so low to the ground.
joe rogan
So little, too.
Look at the little tiny-ass tires.
God, that's awesome.
mike baker
They have fun to drive, man.
joe rogan
You know what I really love?
That Jaguar E-Type.
That long front nose, like a fucking Barracuda.
mike baker
Now, those are, I will admit, those are always in need of...
unidentified
Repair.
joe rogan
Constant.
Constant.
I think they've got the new ones dialed in, though.
The new Jaguars.
mike baker
It's made by Ford.
joe rogan
Yeah.
But for whatever reason, they can't figure out the new Range Rovers.
They still break down.
There's a YouTube channel that I follow that reviews trucks, and they...
God, I can't remember the name of the channel.
These guys, I believe they're from...
I don't even know where the fuck they're from.
But they bought the base model Range Rover Defender.
And they got, you know, the four-cylinder one, the cheapest one you can get with the metal wheels.
And it broke down almost immediately after having it.
And it took, like, more than a month for them to get it repaired.
And this is a brand new truck.
Is that it?
These guys?
Yeah, the Fastlane.
Yeah, so their fucking Defender broke down.
Like, right away.
The guy's laughing his ass off.
This guy, he's a really good reviewer on YouTube.
He's got an awesome channel.
It's really informative and well thought out.
What's it called?
The Fastlane.
mike baker
The Fastlane, okay.
joe rogan
The Fastlane, and most of it is.
So, our third brand new Land Rover Defender, but will it be our last?
Because they kept breaking down.
These fucking things.
They had to fly someone in from England to fix it.
mike baker
Well, that's inexpensive.
joe rogan
Yeah, because they just couldn't...
And also, when you've got a channel that has millions of views on their reviews and you sell them a fucking shitty lemon and it keeps breaking down, you've made a mistake.
mike baker
It's not good, yeah.
joe rogan
They have the worst reliability ratings, and it's unfortunate, because other than that, I don't know what corners they're cutting where their stuff sucks, because the engineering and everything, the design is amazing.
mike baker
I'll tell you what we've been happy with.
joe rogan
7,000 miles.
mike baker
What broke?
My wife drives a Suburban, right?
Now, it's like, what is it, a 2019, I think.
And we needed something we could throw all the sports gear in for the kids, right?
And haul all of them and the dogs and everything around.
And it's been amazingly reliable.
I'll say that much.
And I never had a Suburban before.
But it's been probably the best vehicle we've owned in terms of just reliability, right?
joe rogan
Yeah, those new GM cars are far better than the old ones.
Like, a perfect example is the new GM Corvette.
That new Chevy Corvette is fucking incredible.
That's an incredible car.
It's the best value sports car you can get.
It's a mid-engine American supercar and it's super reliable and really well engineered.
I mean, they went above and beyond for a long time.
They worked on that goddamn thing and they made a masterpiece.
That new Corvette, look at that thing.
That is a masterpiece.
mike baker
It's an amazing car.
They went through a dark period.
joe rogan
Look at that thing, man.
That thing's fucking gorgeous, too.
It looks like a Ferrari.
mike baker
Well, that's what I was going to say.
There was a period of time where...
But again, American design cars went through a period.
joe rogan
Look at that thing, though.
Come on.
mike baker
Remember when every...
joe rogan
That's beautiful.
mike baker
We had a 69 Camaro for a while.
But there was a period where Camaros, Firebirds, Trans Ams all looked alike.
joe rogan
Oh, yeah.
When they got into the 70s and the 80s, they were dog shit.
mike baker
Yeah.
joe rogan
With that, that's a magical vehicle.
They really came out of...
And the interior was always the big thing about...
Click on one of the photos of the interior, Jamie, because that was always the big criticism.
That interior is amazing.
It's beautiful.
And the new one, the 2022, was supposed to be even better looking than that.
mike baker
What's the price on that?
joe rogan
It's not bad.
I think the base model is $60,000.
Seriously?
Yes.
mike baker
It's like an SUV. Yes.
joe rogan
For a car that looks that good and is that fast, I mean, it's ridiculously fast.
And because it's mid-engine, all the weight is above the rear wheels.
So it's really well balanced.
It handles fantastic.
I mean, they have rave reviews all throughout the internet and all these different websites.
They nailed it.
mike baker
Yeah.
What's your favorite car you've had?
joe rogan
I have a 1965 Corvette.
It's probably my favorite.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
I'd give them all up except for that one.
mike baker
Yeah.
joe rogan
If I had to give them all up, I'd keep that.
mike baker
I think I've seen that.
You had that parked one time at your old place.
joe rogan
At the Comedy Store, too.
Yes.
Yeah.
unidentified
That's nice.
joe rogan
That fucking thing is...
That thing is...
It's just...
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
It's just the perfect little car.
It's fun.
But if I had to choose one car to drive, if you said, you can only drive one car, it would be my Tesla.
Really?
Oh yeah.
It makes other cars seem like they're foolish.
Like they're dumb.
Have you ever driven one?
mike baker
No.
You should drive one.
I've never actually been inclined to even think about Tesla.
joe rogan
They're so fast, you can't believe it.
You can't believe it.
It goes 0 to 60 in 2.4 seconds.
That's two seconds faster than that new Corvette.
That's one second faster.
New Corvette's under four seconds.
But it's preposterous how fast it is.
mike baker
Yeah, that's one area I can't even speak about because I have not been in a Tesla.
joe rogan
They'll fuck with your head.
They'll fuck with your head because they do things in a way that you go, why don't other cars work?
Don't you feel the same way?
jamie vernon
I'm going to say mine's all bad.
Go show them real quick.
Come back.
joe rogan
Mine's out back, too.
jamie vernon
Okay.
joe rogan
Mine's back there, too.
jamie vernon
There's an EV Corvette coming out, it says.
joe rogan
Yeah.
What it's going to be is a hybrid.
mike baker
That makes sense.
joe rogan
They're going to have electrical motors in the front, and I think they're going to still have the mid-engine.
But it's going to be like the Acura NSX, which is like a hybrid.
They have electrical motors.
jamie vernon
This is not it, though.
I'm trying to figure out the difference.
joe rogan
1,000 horsepower Corvette Zora is in the works.
Oh, Jesus.
Everyone's going to die.
mike baker
Should I say a stop order on future car development?
joe rogan
Well, my boy John Hennessy already takes a regular Corvette, and I think he jacks it up to 1,000 horsepower.
Go to Hennessey's Corvette.
I have a Hennessey Raptor.
mike baker
Oh.
joe rogan
Oh yeah.
That's my Texas truck.
I had to get one when I moved here.
Just to show that I'm fucking committed to being a Texan.
mike baker
You gotta have a pickup truck.
joe rogan
It's my first pickup truck I've ever owned in my life.
mike baker
Really?
joe rogan
Yeah.
mike baker
I will say, you know, probably if I look at it.
joe rogan
This is the Hennessey C8 Corvette.
He's got a thousand horsepower Corvette.
Watch how fast this thing passes.
unidentified
Come the fuck on!
joe rogan
That to me, that's an eagle strangling a terrorist.
That's America.
Hennessy's awesome.
Come and take it.
He's got the cannon on it.
Look at the first 200 mile rodeo.
mike baker
That's crazy.
joe rogan
Yeah, Generation 501, 203.9 miles per hour.
Yeah, he makes some wild shit.
mike baker
See, I got weird taste.
The pickup that I've got now, I really like.
I'm a big fan.
I think a pickup truck is always a great option.
But ever since I was a kid, and I've never owned one, I've looked at a lot of them.
I've come close to buying them, but this is going to sound weird.
But the car that I've always wanted to buy is a 56 Bel Air.
joe rogan
Oh, it's a beautiful car.
mike baker
It's a beautiful car.
unidentified
It's a beautiful car.
mike baker
It's something about sort of the excess of that period of time, right?
joe rogan
Yeah.
mike baker
Where it was just like, it was all about melding the car design with airplanes and just that whole idea.
unidentified
Yeah.
mike baker
Oh, God.
But I've never found one that I thought, yeah, I'm going to buy this one.
joe rogan
I saw a 55 the other day that was souped up.
It was at this auto shop that I get my repairs done at in Austin, and it was amazing.
Just the boxiness, but the chrome bumpers and the shape.
mike baker
It's fantastic.
It's a different world, right?
joe rogan
Inefficient.
mike baker
Yeah.
joe rogan
Nonsense.
mike baker
Yeah, it is nonsense.
joe rogan
But they're so beautiful.
mike baker
Yeah.
I don't know why, but I go to car shows and I'm always looking around.
joe rogan
Look at that.
Fuck!
Look at that.
mike baker
God, that's beautiful.
Tell me that's not beautiful.
joe rogan
Is that a 56, Jamie?
God, that's so pretty.
That is so pretty.
mike baker
Everything about it.
It's just so fucking excess, but it's just gorgeous.
And the color schemes they had back then, just crazy.
joe rogan
You know who made a really killer one?
Who the fuck was it that made a really killer one?
Somebody made one for rides.
It was Google 55 Corvette.
No, 55 Bel Air for rides.
For the TV show Rides.
They did it.
I'm trying to remember who the fuck designed it.
But there's a difference, right, between a car that you have for transportation and a car that's really just pure enjoyment and fun.
And that's what that is at this point.
mike baker
Yeah.
You've got to have something that you know is always going to be reliable, is not going to break down, is always going to be there.
joe rogan
Yeah.
mike baker
The fun of cars, I think, is in part is just sort of the quirks that each one brings.
And I keep going back to the same thing.
It's just the ability to work on a car as opposed to, I've got to take it in, I've got to have the diagnostics figured out.
I always said, if I had enough money, that's kind of where the money would go.
joe rogan
Is that a rides car?
mike baker
God, it's pretty.
unidentified
Look at that.
joe rogan
Look at that thing.
My God.
mike baker
Fucking paint job on that.
joe rogan
Brilliant.
Yeah, it's just, I mean, it's a statement, right?
It's not just a car.
It's like a love letter to American automotive engineering from the 1950s.
There's just something about...
mike baker
Look, that's optimism, right?
In that time, that shows you what sort of the mindset was, right?
We're launching off to the unknown, right?
We're going to the moon.
Whatever it is, there's this concept that says it's not just about utility, right?
There's something more there.
There's a belief in what we're moving towards.
Boy, that was deep.
joe rogan
I remember who had it now.
Yeah, that was deep.
Christopher Titus, the comic, he had one.
mike baker
He had a Bel Air?
Yeah.
joe rogan
I think he has a 55 that he had made for rides.
My buddy Bud Brutzman's show.
Is that it?
Yeah.
That's it.
Look at that.
That one is super customized.
mike baker
Yeah, that is.
joe rogan
Yeah.
mike baker
That is some heavy work on that.
joe rogan
That's a Chip Foose car.
Chip Foose designed it.
mike baker
Wow.
Yeah.
joe rogan
I mean, that is a goddamn...
I believe he sold it.
But that's a gorgeous car.
Gorgeous car.
Look at that thing.
My God.
mike baker
Yeah, that's not a Kia.
Perfect 55. I'm not going out buying a Camry.
joe rogan
That's very customized.
There's a lot going on with that car that doesn't...
Look at that thing.
Oh my God.
That one right there.
Look at that.
Oh my God.
mike baker
Yeah, the retro mod industry has really come on big.
You see a lot of this in the shows nowadays.
And sometimes it's tough.
I mean, if you're looking for something that's just straight up from the numbers and is legit, it's tough to find sometimes because this is kind of where people are going that direction.
Anyway, so yeah, we're going to go over to England.
I'll probably stop at the Home Depot outside of London, pick up some duct tape and some extra wire, then pick up the MGB, drive around, wait for it to break.
joe rogan
Do you have someone that can inspect the car for you over there to make sure that it's okay?
mike baker
Yeah, I got folks over there.
I got an office over there.
And so, you know, I got some people that are happy to go up.
But I had talked to these guys for a while.
I've been looking for this particular car for a long time.
And you see a lot of crap, right?
But this literally had been owned by a Vicar and garage held.
Forever, right?
And there was just not a bit of rust on this thing.
All the lines, the seams are perfect.
It's really good.
But the problem has been trying to get over that.
I was going to go over towards the end of last year to pick it up.
I've delayed that trip several times.
It sounds like a 1% problem.
Anyway, so we'll go over one.
joe rogan
You're all vaccinated up, right?
mike baker
I am, yeah.
joe rogan
Did you get both shots?
mike baker
I got both shots.
I did the Moderna thing.
joe rogan
Did the second shot kick your ass?
mike baker
Yeah, I did it two weeks ago.
And I've never had a reaction to anything, any sort of flu shot or vaccine.
And the agency used to pump us full of all sorts of stuff.
Yeah.
joe rogan
Take it.
mike baker
It'll be fine.
Here, go downstairs.
They used to send us down to the Office of Medical Services downstairs to get some shots to go some shithole somewhere.
And you never questioned it.
You're always like, yeah, whatever.
But I never had a reaction to anything.
And the docs used to say, well, this might lay you out for a while, and it'd be fine.
So anyway, long story short, a couple weeks ago, I get the second shot of Moderna.
And I go in, and they said, well, stick around for, you know, 15, 20 minutes, see if you have a reaction or whatever.
joe rogan
See if you die.
mike baker
Yeah, if you die, right?
You're going to, you know, fall into a seizure or whatever.
I didn't, so I went home, and I was like, yeah, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine.
Got together with some friends that night, because it's Idaho, so we can actually get together with outside of our bubble, and we drank.
And I woke up the next morning, I thought, yeah, I got a hangover, right, from the, you know, too much red wine or whatever.
And then the rest of that day, 24 hours.
My fever was spiking from like 103 down to 96, right?
I mean, I was going from 103 to 96 in a matter of an hour and a half or so.
It was very odd.
For 24 hours, it just laid me out.
And that was it then.
And after that, I was fine.
No problems.
But it's the same thing I've heard from just about everybody else I've talked to that have taken that second shot.
They say, yeah, about 24 hours, you just feel like shit.
joe rogan
What about younger folks?
You know any younger folks that got it?
mike baker
I try not to socialize with younger folks.
joe rogan
I'm curious.
mike baker
It makes me sound like Wilfred Brimley.
joe rogan
I was watching this video where Ben Stein was on the internet and he was talking about how bad he got wrecked by the second shot, but Ben Stein is like 80, right?
I mean, he was a writer, speechwriter for Nixon.
mike baker
Yeah, yeah.
Bueller.
Bueller.
Yeah, yeah.
He's been around a long time.
I'm trying to think.
Actually, you know, that's not true.
I do know some folks in their, what, 40s?
Early 40s.
joe rogan
How'd they do?
mike baker
They also said the same thing.
In fact, one of the guys, I got the shots because I was doing some work for a company that's considered to be a Whatever they call it, a critical infrastructure company.
And so they put me on their list of people that they wanted to have because they were given a certain number of vaccines.
So they said, you know, would you mind getting on the list?
And so I said, fine.
But I remember some of their folks, probably late 30s and early 40s, they all said the same thing, which is, yeah, the second shot knocked them on their ass.
It varied a little bit.
A couple of days, maybe three days.
They all had sort of the same thing.
Fever, chills, aches.
Flu symptoms, right?
Basically.
And again, I didn't think anything of it because I haven't had a reaction in the past.
But yeah, it was kind of shitty, but You know, I mean, look, I've got some, you know, I had a heart attack, right?
I've had cancer, right?
So I was happy to get it, right?
Because I don't want to, you know, you hear the stories about people, you know, get COVID and they've had other issues in the past.
joe rogan
Right.
mike baker
Okay, fine.
I felt like, you know, and at my age, you know, whatever I am, 48. So I felt like I should, I'm going to get it.
And It wasn't that bad, right, in the scheme of things.
I don't want to sound like a whiner.
It really wasn't that bad.
It was 24 hours of feeling like shit, big deal.
joe rogan
And then the next day you were fine?
mike baker
Yeah, yeah, I was fine.
joe rogan
Did you work out at all afterwards?
mike baker
Oh, yeah, yeah, the next day.
unidentified
How'd you feel?
mike baker
Yeah, I felt fine.
I actually felt, I feel better if I work out.
In fact, I tried to work out that day when I felt like shit because you get, kind of get moving, right, and you feel, you know what it's, I mean, you know, and I went upstairs.
We got a home gym.
And I thought, fuck that.
I can't do it.
Because it's just the temperature changes were just really screwing with me.
But it is interesting.
I've been surprised by the number of people who don't want to take it.
Who are disinclined and included in that number are healthcare people who are saying, eh, I'm going to give it a pass.
So I think that surprised a lot of people.
The general public, and that doesn't send a good message to the general public when they see healthcare professionals saying, ah, I think I'm going to give this a miss.
And everybody's got to make that decision.
For me, it was like, fine, fuck it, I'll take it.
And again, maybe I'm too simplistic, but...
It's fine.
And my wife has got the first shot.
She's going to get the second shot at some point here, I think, the next couple of weeks.
So it'll be interesting to see because she's somewhat younger than I am.
joe rogan
And then there's that Johnson& Johnson one where you take one shot, but it's not as effective.
mike baker
Yeah, and that's interesting because, again, I think people need to go in and it's just like with everything else.
Regardless of what you're reading, you need to figure out what the outlet is, right?
Because there is no doubt.
I keep going back to the same thing.
I sound like I'm beating a fucking dead horse, but The FSB, the Russian Intel Service, is engaged in a covert action campaign right now to denigrate the U.S. manufactured vaccines.
So I'm not saying there's not legit information out there that says, you know, you should think about it.
Maybe it's not right for you.
Fine.
But at least know what the hell you're reading, right?
And pay attention to what the sources of information are that you're getting.
And until that day when we all can figure out what the intent is immediately...
Yeah, I mean, pay attention to what you're doing.
Whether you're reading about foreign policy or domestic politics or the vaccine, just fucking pay attention.
joe rogan
What's weird is that they want you to take the vaccine even if you've already had COVID and you have the antibodies.
That's weird.
That doesn't make sense.
Like, Jamie's got strong antibodies.
Jamie caught COVID in October.
He was barely sick.
He didn't even think he had COVID. He thought he had a sinus infection.
Jamie, speak for yourself.
unidentified
I'm still strong with antibodies now.
mike baker
Strong.
joe rogan
Like fucking Ronnie Coleman strong.
Like we looked at his antibodies.
Fucking thick.
Thick, fat line.
Today.
Today, I mean, here we are.
What is it?
March, what?
The 12th or something?
What is today?
mike baker
Today's the 9th.
March 9th.
joe rogan
March 9th.
unidentified
Over five months.
joe rogan
Five months, strong antibodies.
The kid's a freak.
mike baker
Look at him!
It's a picture of health, right?
joe rogan
It's a specimen.
But I mean, why would anybody tell him that he has to take a vaccine?
That's a thing that keeps coming up.
mike baker
Well, I'll be honest with you.
I didn't know that was the advice.
I thought they were saying, you don't need to get in line for the vaccine if you've already had it.
I didn't know that.
joe rogan
No, they're telling people, even if you've had the vaccine, or excuse me, if you've had COVID, you should still take the vaccine.
And I don't necessarily think I understand that.
mike baker
Yeah, I would think they'd be pushing people who have tested positive, like Jamie, who now has superpowers, that they would push them to the back of the line, basically, and say, you know what, I'm not going to prioritize you for the vaccine, because that actually doesn't make sense.
Look, you think about the population in the U.S. that's had COVID already, and then you think about the numbers that have been vaccinated, and you've got to think, okay...
Is that line shifting?
That line where we thought a year ago, we get to this number, we're approaching herd immunity or whatever they call it.
You would think we're almost there, right?
And I don't know.
joe rogan
They think we are approaching it.
They think we're going to hit it somewhere around the end of April.
That Fauci guy needs to shut the fuck up.
mike baker
Yeah.
joe rogan
As much as he's an expert, and God bless him, but he keeps saying that one of the things he said that made me angry, he said, we're never going to shake hands again.
We're never going to go back to shaking hands again.
I never stopped.
What the fuck are you saying?
Wash your hands.
Shaking your hands is not going to kill people.
Stop saying things like that.
He says too many things that he takes back and too many things that he said in the beginning that masks don't work.
And now he's saying, wear two masks.
Come on, man.
mike baker
I think he's become a little enamored of the limelight.
I think he's...
And that's a natural human thing, I think.
But I think he...
I'm not saying that he's not...
He's a scientist, right?
Fine.
Great.
Okay.
Yo, believe science.
But I'm just saying, human condition is...
joe rogan
He's a human.
mike baker
The attention has been not unattractive to him.
And so then some of the things he says...
And I think that's been part of the problem for the general population is the inconsistency of messaging.
And I think part of that is because people are starting to realize, like, look, medicine's not a fucking black and white issue, right?
It's not a science.
joe rogan
It is a science, but it's not consistent across all human beings.
mike baker
Right.
But it's not—look, there's a lot of educated guesses that go on in medicine.
joe rogan
Yes.
mike baker
I had a stress test.
I had a full workout for my heart.
And they said, whatever you're doing, keep doing.
You're in great shape.
God bless you.
joe rogan
You've eaten a lot of steaks.
mike baker
I've eaten a lot of steaks.
unidentified
Do you?
mike baker
I like red meat.
I'm not going to lie.
I like red meat.
unidentified
Me too.
joe rogan
Keep talking.
mike baker
Let me take my pants off.
unidentified
It's good protein, man.
mike baker
Oh, yeah.
We're going to start talking about elk.
Elk porn.
But then a week later, I have a widow maker.
On an airplane, right?
Just drop on an airplane.
joe rogan
What do you mean?
mike baker
I was going to Puerto Rico to give a speech at a conference.
And thank God Emily was with me.
We were flying.
They said, look, you're coming down to Puerto Rico.
It's a really nice place.
Stay for a few days afterwards.
So all I got to do is give a stupid talk for a little while and something boring.
And they said, hang out.
So Emily came with me.
We were going to have a really great time.
We passed through DFW through Dallas.
We got to the airport in Dallas, waited for the connection, got on the connection, going to Puerto Rico, get on the plane, sit there.
They wind up the engines, move off to the taxi.
They get to the runway.
They're literally pointing down the runway, winding up the engines.
And I look at him and I go, I'm not feeling that.
And that was the last thing I said.
I didn't even get to work good at it.
And I just collapsed, right?
I was done.
joe rogan
How long ago was this?
mike baker
This was three years ago.
And a week before I had a stress test where they said, everything's good, man.
You look good.
And I got a family that's got a history of heart concerns, right?
So that's why I was in for the stress tests.
And if my wife hadn't been with me, I would have died on that plane because everyone would have thought, you know, how the engines wind up and you get ready and people fall asleep.
It's just, you know, it's a white noise.
Yeah.
But she jumped up and said, get this fucking plane back to the gate.
And one of the attendants said, would he like some orange juice?
Because, I mean, she probably thought I was diabetic or something, and I passed out.
And according to a couple of doctors on the plane who came to visit me afterwards, they said my wife was very funny.
She said, he doesn't want any fucking orange juice.
Get back to the fucking gate.
So we got to the gate.
Luckily, the Baylor Grapevine Institute, the Hart Institute, is like seven minutes away.
I couldn't have been luckier.
And so we get back to the gate.
They get me off the plane.
I wake up on a hospital bed staring up at the doctor who's like right there in my face, right?
And I come to and he says, he's very funny, but he says, you know how you can avoid this in the future?
And I'm like, where the fuck am I? Is this like, you know, have I gone to the afterlife and this is what it is?
I'm, you know, talking to a doctor.
And he says, have different parents.
And then he laughed, right?
That was the first thing I saw when I woke up.
unidentified
What a dick!
mike baker
No, he was funny.
He's a great guy.
Great doctor.
Thank God he was there.
But anyway, the point being is that what I learned from that episode and then the subsequent treatment and all the other things that go on with it, I should have known before because I'm old enough to be pragmatic, but a lot of medicine is educated guesses, right?
And yet the general population, right, has grown up to believe that medicine is science, is definite, is black and white.
Here's your answer.
And that's not the way it is.
And I think—so I think it's natural that with a pandemic like this, of course there's going to be—it's not misinformation, it's just— Inconsistent messaging because we're still figuring it out, right?
So that's not medicine's fault.
It's just the way it is.
But that creates this distrust among the public because they're anticipating that it's all going to be clear, right?
You're going to get the exact answer that you want and it's going to be right.
And it's not.
So we've had this period of time over this year where people kind of wig up and you get these different sides arguing about things.
We're just trying to figure the fuck out.
So do the smart thing.
Just try to be responsible, right?
But don't expect that, you know, medicine is going to give you the answers right off the bat and it's going to be correct.
Just like, don't fucking turn to the federal government.
I don't know where I'm going with this, but don't turn to the federal government for all your answers and, you know, don't buy an MGB and expect it to work.
joe rogan
Or a Range Rover expected to make it out of the woods.
mike baker
Or a Range Rover, yeah.
joe rogan
So when you had this heart attack, what advice do they give you in terms of how do you keep from having one again?
mike baker
Well, they put me on blood thinners.
That was a big part of it.
joe rogan
So did you have some sort of a clot or something?
mike baker
I did.
My one side was entirely blocked.
joe rogan
Whoa.
mike baker
Yeah.
And so that's what they call the widow maker.
It just happens.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Did they tell you to resume cardio or to have more cardio?
mike baker
Yeah, I went into some sort of very slow...
It was very funny because they put me in this program where I show up and I'm...
Basically, it's an exercise program.
So I would go there four days a week, and everybody in there was at least 25 years older than I was.
I'm not young, but they were all in there, and so they'd kind of be walking around the track, and I was like, I'm hooked up, and I'm walking around with these guys.
I made some great friends, frankly.
Some of these guys were fantastic, and so you'd go there.
I actually was looking forward to it.
I'd go and have coffee with Fred, and Fred's 89 years old, and we'd have a great time talking.
But they'd be looking at me like I was 20 years old, which I kind of enjoyed, right?
Because I'm the youngest guy in there.
So it was a lot of, you know, build back up your level.
Now I work out just like I did before, right?
But the interesting thing is that they basically, now, when you go in and you say, because there was some talk about, well, let's do the other side, meaning let's get in there and clear it out, put a couple of stents on the other side and make sure you're all good.
But they're like, you know, you talk to one cardiologist and they say, maybe we should.
And the other said, maybe we shouldn't because there's a risk if we go in there.
So maybe we just wait.
And then their answer is always kind of like, well, if you start to feel anything, then, you know, we'll go in there and we'll intervene.
And you think, well, I didn't feel anything before.
joe rogan
Just came out of nowhere?
mike baker
But again, being fairly pragmatic, I'm thinking, well, that's life, right?
There's no fucking guarantees.
I don't have a problem with that.
joe rogan
Did it change your perspective at all?
Like having a Widowmaker experience where you almost died?
Did you get out of that saying, not to be cliche, but every day is a gift, like that kind of shit?
mike baker
Yeah.
I mean, look, I had a stretch of time with that, with the heart situation.
I also had colon cancer, right?
Because I did what a lot of guys do.
I thought I'd put off the colonoscopy, and I put it off.
You're supposed to start when you're 50, I think, is the general advice.
And I was thinking like, I have no interest in going in and getting a colonoscopy.
It just doesn't, it's not the sort of thing that, so I always found a reason to put it off.
I put it off for like five years.
And then finally, my wife said, no, you got to go and get it done for no reason.
It's just, I wasn't feeling bad or anything.
She says, you got to go get it done.
So I went in.
It turns out it's nothing, right?
If my one piece of advice to anybody as a dude, to other guys, is go get your fucking colonoscopy because you don't even know it's happening, you know, and it's not like some sort of prison situation.
You're fine, right?
You're gonna wake up, you have no idea it happened, but get it done.
When you turn 50, start doing that.
joe rogan
Why is it with guys?
Like, what is it about guys that get colon cancer?
unidentified
I have no idea.
mike baker
I have no idea.
I mean, I probably should have researched it afterwards, but I remember going and getting it, and then I'm still doped up, right?
And so I kind of wake up, and I'm aware that Em's standing there talking to the doctor, who turned out to be a great doctor.
She's fantastic.
And they're talking.
But I don't know what they're talking about.
So then we go from there, and I go immediately to another part of the hospital to get some tests done, some scans and everything.
And then I get some more tests done, and then I go home, and I'm happy as a clam, right?
Because I'm still lubed up.
I've got whatever anesthesia they use, and I'm feeling pretty good.
I go upstairs.
I said, I want to take a nap.
I wake up from my nap a couple hours later, and I'm happy as a clam.
I'm going to go outside and do some work.
And Em says, you don't have no idea what's going on, do you?
And I said, no.
So it turns out I had cancer, and they had scheduled me already.
I had to go in and get a, you know, they had to take a section of your colon out, right?
It turns out we've got like six feet of, everybody's got like six feet of whatever colon, or again, I'm not a doctor.
But they had to take out a section of it, do the surgery, and I'm like, yeah, I had no idea until it was explained to me.
So you go in, you do all of that, and then you've got a period of time where you've got to go through some treatment and everything.
But again, you can sit and you can think about it, and you can go, oh my God, why?
I have no history of that in my family.
joe rogan
Just happened.
mike baker
Just happened.
As they said, it was an outlier.
joe rogan
Do you take vitamins?
Do you go in the sauna?
Do you do anything to take care of yourself?
mike baker
Yeah, I'm a healthy guy.
I mean, in a sense.
I mean, I watch, you know, okay, I eat red meat, but I watch my diet.
joe rogan
Red meat's not bad for you.
mike baker
No, I exercise a lot.
You know, I've got an active lifestyle.
I do all those things, right?
joe rogan
There's a lot of people that try to make correlations between red meat being bad for you, but they're all from epidemiology studies where people are eating cheeseburgers and fries and shakes.
mike baker
Exactly.
joe rogan
If you're just eating steak and vegetables, that's normal human food.
I mean, people have been eating meat since the beginning of people.
mike baker
Yeah, I haven't changed.
I know it sounds weird, but after the heart attack, after the cancer, I haven't changed my diet.
Because I had a good diet before.
joe rogan
Did anybody try talking to being a vegan?
mike baker
Nobody that knows me will.
I got some nieces who are very serious vegans, and they're like a religious zealot.
There's nobody more obnoxious than somebody who's adapted a religion.
They get zealous about it.
Vegans kind of can be the same way.
God bless them.
They want to do that, that's fine.
Don't get up on my face about it.
I got some family.
joe rogan
It's an interesting psychological thing.
They just want to show everybody that they're doing the right thing.
They really do believe in it.
It's weird.
I have a friend who's a vegan who's a real asshole.
He's such a shitty person to other people that aren't vegans.
Isn't this supposed to be all about kindness?
Meanwhile, you're just a terrible person to people.
mike baker
But it's like a lot of other things, right?
It's like wearing a mask.
unidentified
Fine.
mike baker
I don't care about wearing a mask.
I'll wear a mask, but don't get up on my face about...
joe rogan
Well, there's things that happen where people use those opportunities as a moment for them to yell at folks.
It's a moment for them to be righteous and, you know...
mike baker
Yeah, never underestimate the strength of the power of someone feeling righteous and smarter than anybody else.
And that's, again, but to answer your question about every day a gift and everything, you know what, I kind of felt that way before, right?
I've seen my family go on, I've seen siblings and good friends, and so I always felt like, you know, yeah, every day's a gift, but I don't think you need some sort of life-changing moment If your priorities are right to think that.
joe rogan
Well, some people, that life-changing moment, though, is just enough of a jolt to just let you know, like, this is real.
Because sometimes, we all know we're going to die, but it's not something you dwell on.
But when you almost die...
mike baker
Don't you dwell on it more?
For a little while, I tell you what, the one reaction to the heart attack on the plane was getting on other planes, right?
And I got to travel a lot, you know, for my line of work.
And so there was that moment where I get on a plane because you feel like, okay, I got no choice.
If I'm sitting on a 13-hour flight, and I'm halfway through it, I'm fucked if something else happens, right?
So there was that side of it, but otherwise, no.
There was no come to Jesus moment where I thought, oh my God.
I will say this.
I don't dwell on death, but I do find myself...
This sounds really odd, but I find myself sometimes thinking, you know, I just want, like, just give me 25 more years or give me, you know, give me 30 more years or whatever.
joe rogan
What do you plan on doing in those 30 years?
mike baker
Well, you know what?
unidentified
Nothing.
mike baker
I just want to see my kids grow up.
joe rogan
And you don't want to leave them behind and leave them sad.
mike baker
Yeah, it's like, you know, What's that old line from Butch Cassidy, the Sundance Kid?
Butch said, you know, I always thought when I grow up I was going to be a hero.
I don't think that I'm going to be a hero when I grow up, right?
But I want to see my kids grow up.
That, to me, is the driver.
I got young kids, right?
I got young boys, right?
So I want to see them grow up.
joe rogan
You know what line I thought you were going to say?
mike baker
What?
joe rogan
When they're about to jump off the cliff.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
One of them goes, I can't swim.
He goes, doesn't matter.
The fall's probably going to kill you anyway.
unidentified
Fall's going to kill you.
mike baker
Yeah.
So many good lines out of that movie.
Yeah, I know.
joe rogan
That's a great movie.
unidentified
Yeah.
mike baker
Oh, my God.
Yeah.
I don't think anybody under 40 actually remembers that movie.
joe rogan
No.
It's a great movie.
mike baker
Oh, God.
It was funny.
Yeah.
joe rogan
Yeah.
There's a lot of those movies, man, from those days.
People, they told stories different back then.
mike baker
Yeah, there was more character development and fewer explosions.
joe rogan
It wasn't influenced by these studies, these focus groups that were trying to figure out what people tune into and what people don't tune into.
They were just trying to tell a story.
Yeah.
mike baker
And you could develop the story in a slower fashion.
In part because, I go back to what we were talking about, the access to information.
It's created shorter attention spans.
joe rogan
It's too much.
mike baker
And so people want that answer right away.
They want satisfaction right away.
I'm going to buy something, I'm going to buy it right away.
I want the story to get over with so I can move on to the next one.
I'm going to binge watch something.
So yeah, I think there was something to that.
There were a lot of bad movies made in the old days, but a lot of them did allow for more dialogue, more story development, more character development.
joe rogan
They appreciated and respected your intelligence enough that you could sit and watch something.
A couple years back, it's been a couple years, but a couple years back I watched Le Mans with Stephen Queen.
unidentified
Yes.
joe rogan
In the beginning of the movie, there's no dialogue for a long-ass time.
For a long-ass time, it's just setting up this scenario.
mike baker
That's a great movie.
joe rogan
That's a great movie.
Great movie.
mike baker
Oh, God.
joe rogan
Great movie.
And you realize what those guys had to go through back then, driving those race cars in the 1960s?
mike baker
Yeah.
joe rogan
Those things were death traps.
mike baker
Yeah.
Death traps and a lot of physical work.
joe rogan
Oh, yeah.
mike baker
You were beat to hell by the time you finished.
joe rogan
Well, Le Mans is 24 hours.
mike baker
Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan
You're driving for a full day.
I mean, that's part of what the race was about was your mental endurance.
mike baker
Yeah.
That's a good result.
If all this does is get people to watch Le Mans or Butch Cassidy, that's great.
joe rogan
That's a great result.
unidentified
And pay attention to China.
mike baker
Yeah, pay attention to China.
Going back to...
I did want to touch on the Syria thing because I think it is important.
joe rogan
What is going on over there?
mike baker
Well, I think it's interesting for a couple of reasons, but one is just...
I found interesting was the...
The realization amongst a lot of people that we still had troops over in Iraq, right?
That seemed to catch a lot of people off guard.
Because what happened was there's eastern Syria where we did the airstrikes a couple of weeks ago.
We struck a facility that is essentially a hub, a center for transportation of fighters, foreign fighters, and money and hardware, weapons, that the Iranians have set up.
The Iranians have basically created a transportation system from Tehran to all the way to Beirut, right, in their effort to try to control the region.
And so you had this eastern Syria outpost with Iranian-backed militia, and they were engaged in occasional attacks against U.S. and coalition forces, right?
So they were lobbing missiles, and there were a couple of incidents where we lost contractors and some coalition members.
And so essentially what happened was the Biden administration, I think correctly so, said, okay, look, we've got to do something.
We've got to send a message.
And so they did.
They struck a facility there run by some Iranian-backed militia.
But the news that it was because of the attacks that they were committing on U.S. forces in Iraq, that's the interesting part because it caught people by surprise and going, what the fuck?
We still got people in Iraq?
Because we've gone well beyond that time when – support our troops.
Wounded warrior was always the ads up there and everybody thought about it.
But it's been, I think about how many years it's been, right?
And so I think we've forgotten that we still have, we don't have many, but we still have troops over there.
And so it raised an interesting question, which is an important one to talk about, I think, which is, you know, why are we still over there?
Or what are we doing over there?
Or what's our endgame?
What's our reason for being, right?
And, you know, look, 19 years.
Twenty years since we've been in Afghanistan, as an example, and what's the point?
And so I think that's a legitimate conversation to have, regardless of where you fall on the answer.
I think it's a good question to have, and we should be talking about it.
But we don't because we get wrapped up in domestic politics or we get wrapped up in COVID or whatever it is.
So occasionally something like that happens that causes people to shift their focus outside of their bubble and outside the US and think about what the hell else is going on in the world.
And that's, from my perspective anyway, that's a good thing, right?
Because there is a lot of happening over there.
joe rogan
But it's just shocking how little coverage there is.
mike baker
Yeah.
joe rogan
And how much coverage there is about Ted Cruz wanting to go to Cancun.
unidentified
Right?
joe rogan
If you look at the difference, that was in the front center of the media.
That was the thing they were talking about the most.
mike baker
And they know that.
Look, most journalism now is on social media, in a sense.
So it's all about getting clicks on your story, which is why headlines are so sensational.
Oftentimes don't line up with the actual story then.
Because all you want to do is you want to get people clicking on it or talking about it.
And that's the way that the journalism gets driven forward.
So, yeah, it's no surprise that Ted Kuhn and – or Ted Kuhn.
joe rogan
Ted Kuhn.
mike baker
Ted Kuhn in Cancun.
I was combining Cancun and Ted Kuhn.
I came up with Ted Kuhn.
I'm not saying not to go with it.
So that's why that gets the attention.
And airstrikes in Syria, you're not going to get the clicks on that, right?
People aren't going to go, oh, that's interesting.
joe rogan
It's outrageous to see Ted Cruz in the middle of a crisis that's happening in Texas, his state.
He's a senator.
He decides to leave the state and go to a resort in Mexico.
mike baker
Yeah.
That's going to get more clicks and likes.
joe rogan
You son of a bitch!
mike baker
Yeah, yeah.
So it's from, again, it makes sense why certain stories drive a narrative, right?
Because, again, because people have sort of a very short attention span, limited time in their day to gather information.
They're going to go for the salacious thing.
And so, yeah, yeah, Cruz and Cancun, why not?
Syria?
Eh.
It's too complicated.
joe rogan
It's too complicated, and it's also so far away.
It's hard for people to wrap their heads around it.
mike baker
Yeah.
But it is, I mean, it will be very interesting to see where this administration goes.
I mean, again, God bless them.
I hope they do well.
We should have hoped that the Trump administration did well.
We should, you know.
joe rogan
You should always hope they do well because if they do well, we do well.
mike baker
Exactly.
joe rogan
The problem is when people don't want them to do well.
Like, I was hearing people saying that they wanted the economy to tank so it would get people to realize that Trump's a fraud.
Like, why the fuck would you want the economy to tank?
mike baker
Yeah.
joe rogan
It's like, even if you hate Trump, you'd want him to do well because then the country does well.
mike baker
It seems like a simple equation, but...
joe rogan
You don't know the guy.
It's not like you talk to him every day.
Oh, this dick again.
Just stop watching CNN. You won't be so angry.
mike baker
Well, the problem is access to instantaneous information.
That's the problem.
joe rogan
Isn't it weird how they're taking out Cuomo now?
mike baker
Oh, New York.
Although with New York...
You're probably one more sexual harassment allegation away from opening up New York, you know, getting the restaurants open.
And so I think they're probably hoping one more woman will show up and say, yeah, you know, he...
joe rogan
Yeah, but de Blasio doesn't want anything to be opened up.
That fucking moron.
mike baker
Yeah, although it's interesting to see the dynamic with Cuomo.
And de Blasio, they've never seen eye-to-eye.
They've always been kind of going at each other.
And de Blasio sees this as a moment.
And I think he felt like he was probably done.
Nobody really wants him as mayor in New York, the people that are in New York.
And so he probably sees this as a possible entrance ramp to the governor's slot.
He might be able to make his...
unidentified
Really?
joe rogan
Everybody hates him.
mike baker
Everybody hates him, but look, you know...
joe rogan
Do you see that video that he put out?
mike baker
Stranger things have happened in politics.
I don't know about that.
joe rogan
That's pretty strange.
Even liberals don't like de Blasio.
Did you see that video that he put out about bringing the arts back to New York?
mike baker
Yes.
joe rogan
Do you see that?
With the bad dancing, the out-of-sync music, and the uncoordinated dancing?
That was the weirdest thing ever.
That was a part of a Coen Brothers movie.
That's what that was like.
That was like the Big Lebowski.
You're watching this and you're like, what am I seeing?
mike baker
I just watched Fuck, that movie's good.
It's so fucking good.
joe rogan
Such a good movie, man.
You know what I watched the other night?
A lot of my friends!
mike baker
Face down in the muck!
Died!
Chinaman.
I don't think you're supposed to say Chinaman.
There's so many good things in that movie.
unidentified
Great movie.
joe rogan
You know what I watched the other night that's a great movie that I kind of forgot how good it was?
Napoleon Dynamite.
mike baker
Oh.
joe rogan
My God, that was good.
unidentified
Filmed out in Idaho.
joe rogan
My God, that was good.
My 10-year-old did not understand it.
mike baker
Really?
joe rogan
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
She just, there's certain aspects of humor.
She's like, he's dumb.
I'm like, that's the point.
mike baker
Yeah.
joe rogan
The point is that it's all dumb.
mike baker
That's a brilliant movie.
My kids, again, we're out in Idaho.
My kids have all watched it.
They love that movie.
joe rogan
Fuck, that movie's funny.
Isn't it in Idaho?
mike baker
It is, yeah.
It's a couple hours outside of Boise.
God, it's funny.
My youngest boy, Muggsy, can do the entire dance.
Jamiroquai, I think, did the music for that.
And Can't Heat or whatever that song was.
And he can do that entire dance.
He did it for a talent show at school one time, which was absolutely brilliant.
joe rogan
The uncle who Uncle Rico.
Yeah, Uncle Rico.
Uncle Rico wants to go back in time to when he was playing football in high school.
unidentified
I could throw that football over that mountain.
That fucking movie's so funny!
mike baker
And then a dojo.
joe rogan
Oh my god.
mike baker
A dojo.
Bow to your sensei!
It's just brilliant.
unidentified
It's a funny movie, man.
joe rogan
It's a funny movie.
mike baker
God, that was funny.
Yeah, there he is.
Yeah.
unidentified
Yeah.
mike baker
LaFonda.
Remember LaFonda comes out?
joe rogan
She turns out to be real.
mike baker
Don't worry.
Don't worry, Demolian.
You'll find your soulmate one day.
joe rogan
And everyone's thinking that LaFonda's fake.
Turns out she's real and they really do love each other.
unidentified
It's a great movie, man.
mike baker
I caught you a tasty bass.
No, you're right.
Again, there's certain movies.
I had my boys watch Old School the other day.
joe rogan
That's a great one, too.
mike baker
Yeah.
There's some movies I think the boys at a certain age should always watch.
I sound like I'm sexist, but you know what I'm going to say.
But I got boys, so they should watch these movies.
But yeah, Old School's great.
Step Brothers.
joe rogan
Isn't it funny that it's sexist if you say there's movies that you think a boy should watch, but it's not sexist if you say there's movies that I think girls should watch.
mike baker
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's true.
We got International Women's Day.
We just had International Women's Day.
joe rogan
Yeah, because men are all scared.
mike baker
Yeah, we don't have men's day.
joe rogan
We're scared of being called out for being sexist.
mike baker
Yeah.
joe rogan
We have to be careful.
mike baker
You have to be careful about everything, right?
In fact, that's what Emily told me.
She dropped me off here.
joe rogan
Be careful.
You're talking to Rogan.
mike baker
It's probably high.
No, no, no.
She loves your show, but she's worried about me.
She's worried about me saying something stupid.
joe rogan
Have you taken heat from shit you said on here in the past?
mike baker
Yes.
Yes, I have.
And a lot of it.
But that's fine.
joe rogan
What's the big one?
mike baker
Well, you know what?
The big one's in sort of a general category where you say that like the far right, you know, they're full of shit and the far left's full of shit.
And then people get upset because what I get mostly is, well, if you're in the middle, you don't stand for anything.
joe rogan
That's ridiculous.
mike baker
But that's what you hear mostly, is because you say something about how fucked up the – like the mask burning.
Like, that's fucked up, right?
Or you say something stupid about – like the far left not seeing the irony of wanting to ban books.
unidentified
And you're thinking, okay.
mike baker
Fine.
But then you get called out because you exist somewhere in the center where you're trying to see that there's smart ideas on both sides, and yet people are so angry that they don't want that, right?
And it's like that idea that we were talking about before where… The people who are shining during the pandemic, who love the suffering in a sense, right, who really don't want us to return to a normal because they've actually found this to be a good time for them.
That sounds wrong.
I know that sounds wrong.
You know, a lot of people, but there are some people who seem to suffer well, right?
You know, to some degree, they're the same people who grieve well, right?
You know, you get those people who, they didn't know the person who died, but, you know, my God, they're grieving more than anybody else, including immediate family.
And so, I don't know.
I probably don't want to disappear.
I'll say something stupid, and then I'll get caught out again.
joe rogan
What do you think of saying that was maybe stupid?
Let's talk about this Capitol Hill shit.
What did you think about that?
Because we haven't talked about that yet.
That's happened since the last time I saw you.
mike baker
You know what?
That's a good example of getting called out on shit.
I did a show on the 6th.
It was a news segment where I was talking and I said that President Trump's reaction that day was pathetic.
That's what I said.
And my point was, is that a lot of what he did over his four years, it was just self-inflicted wounds.
It was unnecessary, right?
And a lot of the noise was unnecessary.
It was because of his personality and the way that he responded, right?
Now, I know his base loved that because they felt like, well, that's real, right?
And he's really speaking truth to power.
He's not part of the swamp and all that.
But my point was, look, you can be smart enough as the president of the United States to come out and immediately say, regardless of what's going on, just say...
Back the fuck off.
This is wrong.
Don't do it.
You can protest, but not violently, and get the fuck out of the Capitol building.
And he didn't do that.
It was sort of the same thing that he always does, which is, it's not a strong statement, and it's a self-inflicted wound.
So I said that, and man did I take some fucking heat.
From who?
From the right side.
From the right side, who's saying, ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm full of shit.
joe rogan
But what people on the right don't think that that's wise?
That's what I understand.
mike baker
Well, it's the people on the farthest spectrum, which again, I go back to the same thing.
joe rogan
Now they have to understand that they were wrong.
mike baker
You would think so.
But I think a lot of people don't.
A lot of people still think...
Look, was there fraud in the election?
Yes, I believe.
But there's fraud in every election, right?
It's the nature of the beast, right?
joe rogan
What I said was like, do you think that the fraud in the election was zero?
No one thinks that.
mike baker
No.
joe rogan
How much do you think the fraud was?
Do you think the fraud was enough to shift the election one way or the other?
mike baker
I don't.
joe rogan
I don't think so either.
But I don't know.
mike baker
But I think that if we allow to normalize certain aspects of the electoral system, I think what you're doing – look, I work in fraud all the time, right?
That's what my guys do in my business.
That's all.
They work in fraud.
If you allow conditions to create the potential for fraud, then people are going to fill that gap, and they're going to rush in, and they're going to engage in fraud.
So this is the part that I can't figure out.
Everybody should want, right or left, to allow the ability, the easy access to vote for every U.S. citizen.
But we should also want To not have people who aren't citizens or Whatever.
I mean, just to not allow fraud into the system.
And so I have a hard time understanding how people can't come together and say, yeah, we want integrity in our electoral system.
Do you think any other country allows for a sort of lax, you know, program that says, yeah, we're not going to check and we're just going to – we're so keen to show how righteous we are that everybody has easy access to voting that we're not going to check and make sure we're a citizen.
I guarantee you every other country makes sure that the people voting are citizens of that country, if they're given the right to vote, right?
joe rogan
And we don't do that?
mike baker
Well, what I'm saying is there's a potential if we just expand the ability to vote, right, in our desire— To non-citizens.
Right.
Well, no, I'm not even saying non-citizens.
What I'm saying is the way that we allow people to vote.
If we don't have integrity in ensuring that the vote is coming from a legitimate citizen, right, And the right and the left should want that.
You want people to be able to vote.
Of course you want fucking people to vote.
It's like believe science.
Of course you believe science.
But you want everybody to be able to vote, and you want them to be able to do it easily.
But you also want to make sure that you're not opening it up in your desire to allow people to vote so that you don't have the ability to check and make sure that there's no fraud.
So that doesn't seem to be a heavy lift.
Allow easy access to voting for every US citizen, but ensure that the integrity of the system allows you to make sure that you just have US citizens voting for your country's elections.
That's what every other country does.
And again, it goes back to that thing about sometimes we apologize for it.
It's a righteous idea that, you know, well...
I don't know.
joe rogan
Let me ask you this.
Instead of examining all the problems, what could be done to make voting more secure?
Is it possible to vote online?
I said, why is it that we can bank online, but we can't vote online?
mike baker
Yeah.
Well, I think if your system – part of the problem, I think, is if your system isn't clearly explainable and transparent, if people can't look at it and go, I see – and the reason why, like, in-person voting, right, the day of the election was for so long, was – nobody questioned it – was because that's simple.
That's transparent.
You can look at it and you say, yeah, I get it.
That's what happens.
It's – It's election day.
Everybody go to the voting polls and vote.
And so if you're doing it online or there's just unsolicited mail-in ballots, then People can look at that and legitimately go, well, I don't understand it, and so therefore I don't know that it's credible.
joe rogan
Do you think the mail-in ballots leave more of an opportunity for fraud?
mike baker
There's a potential.
Do I think – I mean, again, I go back to the same thing.
Do I think there was enough in this – no.
There wasn't so much fraud.
joe rogan
But I think that – Do you think there's fraud on both sides?
Do you think there's fraud on the Republican side and the Democrat side?
mike baker
Oh, sure.
joe rogan
So it probably cancels itself out?
mike baker
Well, I think it's – there's a – You know, again, you go back to the human condition.
I think it's – if there's an opportunity for fraud, I don't think, you know, Republicans are going to be less inclined than Democrats or Democrats are less inclined than Republicans.
I just think it's the way it works.
But it's – I think you have to have a transparent, clearly explainable, you know – System that you can look at and go, yes, I get it.
That's why.
And so I'm a big fan of in-person voting.
And unsolicited mail-in ballots?
No.
In the old days, we had absentee ballots.
And look, we changed the rules to try to accommodate for the pandemic.
And that made sense, right?
There has to be an ability for both sides to look at the system and say it's credible because it's clearly explainable and transparent.
And I just don't think that's where we're at right now.
That's what created this confusion and distrust.
That's a very dangerous thing.
And also then we had outside elements trying to, you know, drop in there with their covert action campaigns to cede that inability to believe in the system.
So, yeah, we better get this nailed down before the next election.
Otherwise, we're gonna have the same problems.
joe rogan
Yeah, I'm worried that Trump comes back in 2024, and I'm worried that these people that were at the Capitol building get more organized and more emboldened.
The only difference is what's really kind of hilarious is these dummies were also anti-maskers, so they all showed up.
I mean, it was like a perfect storm of stupid.
mike baker
Yeah.
unidentified
It really was.
mike baker
It was a perfect storm of super...
Because if you think about it, the facial recognition abilities that we have now...
joe rogan
All they had to do is wear masks.
mike baker
Yeah.
joe rogan
You fucking idiots.
You could wear a mask and you'd be totally justified and nobody would ever catch you.
mike baker
Perfect opportunity to wear a mask and not be identified.
Yeah, I know.
joe rogan
And these fucking idiots are putting their feet up on Nancy Pelosi's desk and taking photos.
mike baker
Yeah.
No, that was...
But then they've got to do a hot wash, and we still haven't gotten the results of that yet in terms of the – what was the breakdown in all of this?
Why was it so difficult to just simply secure the Capitol building?
joe rogan
Well, look at the difference between when the Black Lives Matter protests were there and they had hundreds of security guards surrounding the Capitol building versus this, which is a pittance.
mike baker
Right.
But I think that's an easy thing to do, right?
To walk that back and say, okay, let's do an investigation.
But the problem is with DC is, you know, they seem incapable of doing an investigation into anything, right?
It's where good investigations go to die.
Yet, these sort of things happen all the time.
You do a hot wash of some scenario or something that happened, you can do that.
But in D.C., because of the dysfunctional nature of that place, I don't think we're going to get any sort of easy answers out of this.
But it should be relatively simple.
I know some of the people that were in the Sergeant of Arms office there in Capitol Building and Capitol Police guys.
It shouldn't be difficult to say, what's the timeline?
Who talked about security in the days leading up to this?
Who requested additional security?
Why was it denied?
All these things need to be looked at and then explained to the general public in a clear and nonpartisan way.
Do I think that's going to happen?
joe rogan
No, because it's Washington, D.C. Do you think that the attack on Capitol Hill in many ways is like what happens when the social media chickens come to roost?
That this divide that we've had on social media that is accentuated by algorithms, it does...
It emphasizes these echo chambers where people believe the election was stolen.
They only communicate with other people.
And you're a patriot if you go there.
We're going to get together patriots.
They were calling themselves patriots, violating the law, right?
mike baker
Right.
joe rogan
Violating Capitol Hill, storming the gates, killing a cop, and you're calling yourself a patriot.
mike baker
Look, I think the vast majority of those people, once they found themselves inside the Capitol building, were probably like, oh, wow.
joe rogan
Exactly.
mike baker
You can see it.
But you had some of those people who knew exactly what they were doing.
And so they should be punished, of course.
But I think that, yes, I think social media played a big role in it.
I think Trump himself...
I know people were saying, well, he said he called for peaceful protest.
Well, yes, but he could have done it in a better way.
He could have been more demanding.
joe rogan
I don't think he anticipated that they were going to do that.
I think he thought they were going to go there and chant and scream.
mike baker
Of course.
joe rogan
It has always happened, and that would be the end of it.
unidentified
Right.
mike baker
Yeah, exactly.
Do I think Trump intended or thought that they were going to storm the Capitol?
Of course not.
joe rogan
No, but he did want to incite them to cheer and chant and let people know on his behalf.
That tape that got leaked of him calling up the governor of Georgia and telling them to change the election results and be a patriot, like that kind of shit.
mike baker
That's disconcerting.
Everything's a problem with his messaging and his self-inflicted wounds.
And look, we talked back in, what, November, right?
I think was the last time.
And I think at that time, I said that he's losing the election and The next important thing was going to be the Georgia Senate runs.
If you're a Republican, you should be pissed off that he wasn't smart enough to understand that after the election, He should have turned his attention to Georgia and simply said, all you've got to do now is you've got to focus on Georgia.
You've got to get out there and vote.
You've got to do everything possible.
He couldn't do that.
He couldn't do it.
Now look, that doesn't mean I don't like some of the policies of the previous administration.
You can have disagreements with the person who's in the White House and still like the policies, the attitude towards China and the way that we dealt with China, some of the other things that we were doing.
That's great.
We don't live in that world now where you can separate and kind of, you know, look and analyze policies from people, right?
Now it's like, if you say, look, there were self-inflicted wounds, people go, oh, you're fucked up, you're not a Republican, you hate the policy.
I didn't know.
I'm just saying, look, he clearly, through his actions, caused the Republicans to lose Georgia.
He could have, from that bully pulpit of his, he could have pushed, and we probably would have won both of those elections in Georgia.
But he didn't do that.
joe rogan
How could you have done that?
What could you have done differently?
mike baker
Simply by shutting up about election fraud and realizing that this is – the Democrats, one thing that they do, right?
And again, I'm a centrist here, but one of the things that I always thought Democrats do well is they focus on the end result, right?
On the game, right?
On the game plan.
And sometimes Republicans get lost in, like, principle and theory and the purity of it all, right?
And it's like with, I don't know.
So I think that what he could have done was just immediately pivot after the national election, the presidential election, and said, look, we're all disappointed, right?
This is not the result that we wanted.
But now we have an important task ahead of us.
And that is the two Senate seats in Georgia.
If you like the policies that we've been promoting, and you like the deregulation, or you like the China policy, or whatever it is, focus your attention in Georgia.
joe rogan
But do you think that would have made a difference?
Because the people that are on the fence, do you think there's that many people that are on the fence that would have voted Republican but wound up voting Democratic?
Because he...
mike baker
I think...
I don't think they wound up voting Democratic.
I think they just stayed home.
I think what they did was they sowed this...
Belief in the lack of integrity of the election system, and they probably thought, ah, fuck it!
You know, they stole the first one, they're gonna steal this one, so I'm not going anywhere.
You know, I'm gonna protest, or whatever it might be.
So I think that's where the mistake was.
But, you know, again, look, I, you know, what the hell?
I hope the Biden administration does a great job.
I hope they...
joe rogan
Do you think he's gonna make it four years?
mike baker
I hope he does.
Yeah, of course he does.
Of course I hope he does.
Yeah, of course he does.
joe rogan
You think he's going to make it four years?
mike baker
You know, what am I? If you had a bet.
If I had a bet.
joe rogan
For your last hundred bucks.
mike baker
We have a bet.
joe rogan
What's our bet?
mike baker
We have a bet that I bet that Trump won't come back and run again.
joe rogan
Oh, he's coming back.
mike baker
Oh, I know.
joe rogan
How much was our bet?
mike baker
What was it, Jamie?
A thousand bucks?
joe rogan
A thousand bucks?
I can't wait to spend that money.
mike baker
I think it was $1,000.
I'm just reminding you because I still think I'm going to win.
joe rogan
I'm spending it right now.
He's coming back.
mike baker
What are you going to spend it on?
joe rogan
Oh, good stuff.
All kinds of good stuff.
mike baker
Good stuff.
joe rogan
I'm going to buy an eagle sculpture.
mike baker
A big screaming eagle sculpture.
unidentified
He's coming back.
joe rogan
He's coming back.
unidentified
I don't know.
mike baker
I don't think so.
joe rogan
What did you think about when they attached in the COVID relief bill 180 days for the CIA to release all the information they have about UFOs?
unidentified
Did you see that?
mike baker
That's one of the things I love about this.
joe rogan
We can go from there to there.
mike baker
Yeah.
Oh, my God.
joe rogan
It's fantastic.
Yeah, we can't be taken seriously that way.
mike baker
Yeah.
No, no.
But I will say this.
I tell people this all the time.
They say, why is it so entertaining?
I say, because he's curious about everything.
He's genuinely curious about everything.
And that's a good question.
Look, I'm happy that when it comes to UFOs, there's a lot of things that the agency needs to keep off the radar for sources and methods, right?
unidentified
Yeah.
mike baker
It's a need to know issue.
And frankly, again, going back to what's in, you know, the U.S. best interest.
For that day when China decides to release all of their intel operations and information, then great.
Maybe it's time for us to be transparent, but that's not the way the world works.
unidentified
Do you think that's what it is?
joe rogan
A lot of it is just secret programs, defense vehicles?
mike baker
Well, no, what I'm saying is, oh, in terms of the UFO thing?
unidentified
Yeah, yeah.
mike baker
Yeah, a great portion of it is.
How much?
joe rogan
50%?
mike baker
Oh, now the...
47% actually, but don't tell anybody I said that.
That's well known.
Inside the community.
No, look, I think it's good because I think the...
Look, it's for the same reason that Pentagon released the information about AATIP, about the Advanced Aeronautical Threat Identification Program.
I think it's actually good.
There's no reason why we shouldn't, unless...
You are talking about developmental aircraft as an example, which is important because when you're talking about hypersonic aircraft or missiles or whatever it is, there's some stuff that needs to be kept off the radar screen because there is a tremendous competition going on right now, particularly for things like control of space.
That's going to be a huge issue.
Because the weaponization of space, for a long time people were thinking, ah, space, it's a great exploration and it's good for mankind.
Frankly, There is a race to figure out how to weaponize space.
And so as an example of what we're talking about, the idea of just saying, oh, we're going to open the books as a country and reveal all our information about developmental aircraft, as an example, that's the wrong move, right?
Because...
joe rogan
But do you think there are any credible stories, whether it's from Commander David Fravor, who saw that Tic Tac vehicle off the coast of San Diego, or whatever video?
mike baker
Yeah.
If I had to point to one, I would say Fravor.
joe rogan
Yeah.
mike baker
I would say without a doubt.
I'd say the one that if I were somebody who's looking for some redemption because I've been beating the drum about UFOs and nobody's ever believed me and they always roll their eyes, I would say the one thing that would give them comfort would be the incident with Commander Fravor and that sighting.
That's one that I have yet to see an explanation for that makes any sense.
joe rogan
Well, not only that, they tracked it.
mike baker
Yeah.
joe rogan
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, and then also it blocked their radar systems, which is an act of war.
They actively jammed radar systems.
Yeah.
It's not simple as, like, they saw something, they didn't know what it was.
Like, they tracked this thing going from, I think it was close to 80,000 feet above sea level to one in one second.
mike baker
Yeah.
No signs of propulsion.
joe rogan
Yeah.
mike baker
No heat signatures.
Nothing, right?
And it was just, it was a...
Yeah, it's one of those things you look at and you go, okay, and look, the AATIP program made sense in the sense that, you know, if a nation is out there, if the Chinese are out there, or the Russians, whomever, and they're developing propulsion capability that we don't know about, then yeah, we should have a mechanism within the Pentagon, within the intel community to understand what that is.
Let's research it, let's investigate, right?
And so, oftentimes, you know, they come to a logical conclusion.
The Fravor incident, I have yet to see any information that explains it, right?
So, that to me, and also, as you pointed out, the way that it was tracked, the verification of it from very credible, you know, individuals, that...
To me is like the prime example.
joe rogan
And they have video footage of this thing, too.
And then on top of that, the Nimitz...
mike baker
Yeah, they have gun camera footage.
It's incredible.
joe rogan
Yeah, and the Nimitz saying that these things are fairly common, that they're seeing them every couple of weeks.
They were seeing them, and you know, when Fravor's like, hey guys, what the fuck is this?
And they're like, yeah, you see it?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
We've been seeing these things.
mike baker
And there's no upside for somebody like that, a very well-respected aviator with great experience.
There's no upside for these guys to come forward.
In fact, there's pressure to not because it's not necessarily good for your career to come in and say, I think I saw a UFO. What do you think is going on?
Uh, I don't know.
We've talked about that before.
I'm not, you know.
joe rogan
I'm trying to get the right answer out of you.
I keep asking until you forget what you said before.
mike baker
Yeah, I know, right?
You forgot about the damn bed.
I shouldn't have opened my mouth.
I know.
People will go back to that, though.
They would have called me out.
If Trump comes back and runs, they would have said, oh, you owe him a thousand bucks.
joe rogan
I can't wait to get that fucking screaming eagle in here that I'm going to buy.
mike baker
I'll buy it for you with the money, and I'll put a little plaque on there to say where it came from.
joe rogan
Big bronze eagle.
mike baker
I know, big...
I've got one.
I gave a speech one time for a Veterans Day event, and they gave me this big eagle.
I keep it in my office now.
It's fantastic.
I keep it in the background when I do news segments from my office, and it's perched over my shoulder.
You've got to have one in here.
Anyway, I don't know.
joe rogan
You think about it at all?
mike baker
Yeah, I do.
And like I said, with Black Files Declassified coming up, I just got another plug-in.
We're going to do an episode...
joe rogan
That's on the Discovery Channel, isn't it?
mike baker
It is on Discovery Channel.
And you know what?
You can see the entire first season on Discovery+.
So I... I think it's foolish to discount these things because there's so much we don't know, right?
And the idea of thinking that somehow we're the only credible life forms out there I think is ridiculous.
So I think it's a high possibility that Yes, I do think that.
But at the same time, then I also question sort of the way that...
That's great.
If some alien life force with amazing technology that we can't even fathom right now comes to visit us...
What the hell are they doing?
Are they just sort of like watching us just for the entertainment value?
So I'm always puzzled by that part, the idea that...
joe rogan
Well, they probably want to observe, but they don't want to interfere.
If they're super advanced, they probably realize there's a process.
that intelligent life goes through, where there's stages of their evolutionary development in terms of use of technology, understanding of each other, mitigation of war and conflict, and then ultimately entrance into the Galactic Federation.
unidentified
I'm on board then.
mike baker
I'm good.
I'm good.
joe rogan
If I had to guess, that's what I would think.
mike baker
I hope we get good uniforms.
Space Force.
Space Force.
joe rogan
Like that one over there.
The silver one.
Right?
mike baker
I didn't see that.
joe rogan
We wear that when we get high and do shows sometimes.
mike baker
That's fantastic.
It looks like something out of Better Call Saul.
joe rogan
It's from Amazon.com.
I got it from Amazon.
mike baker
I've been watching that again.
You watch Better Call Saul?
joe rogan
I've never seen it.
mike baker
Oh, you should watch it.
I'm watching it again the second time around.
It's actually really good.
Yeah, Breaking Bad.
It's actually very entertaining.
It's well-written.
But yeah, Saul's...
joe rogan
It's not as good as that Black Fowl show, though, right?
mike baker
It's not as good as the Black Fowl show.
The first season's on Discovery+.
And we're going to start filming in mid-April.
Traveling around the country, doing all the...
joe rogan
And you are going to cover UFOs.
mike baker
We are covering UFOs.
joe rogan
Anything else salacious we could add before we wrap this up?
mike baker
I think that's about it actually we're getting I shouldn't say that this is interesting we're getting into invested recently in the cannabis business yeah I know I'm I'm starting to become a believer I'm not a believer in Bitcoin yet but I'm a believer in the cannabis business well it's a fucking giant business it's like not being a believer in trees yeah They're out there.
It's like the Lorax.
Yeah.
So, yeah, no, it's, we've, we've, but we're hitting it from a different direction.
We're hitting it from, I've always thought...
I've done some work, a couple of shows on the problems that are around cannabis in terms of the cash economy, the inability of banking systems to get involved and all of that.
We're going in on a business that does the...
Is worried about the tax and banking side of things.
So it's sort of the intersection of the trade with commerce and pulling it into sort of the legitimate world of commerce.
joe rogan
Well, that's one of the hopes of the Biden administration that they'll pass some sort of federal law on marijuana, that they'll change it and make it legal, which I think they should.
unidentified
They should.
mike baker
I think it's time at this point.
Look, the horses left the barn, regardless of where anybody thinks about weed.
joe rogan
Yeah, you don't have to smoke it.
mike baker
No, no.
But in terms of legitimizing it and getting it out of sort of the cash economy, I think...
So anyway, this business, it's backed by Snoop Dogg, actually.
joe rogan
Oh my goodness.
mike baker
Yeah, Casa Verde.
Perfect.
So it's a business that is working on that portion of it.
So it's interesting.
It's not like a grower.
It's not the production side.
And I think in that regard, it makes more sense.
But it's sort of an initial foray.
For a guy that came out of the agency, that's an interesting thing.
joe rogan
It is.
Congratulations to you.
mike baker
Thank you very much.
joe rogan
Open them eyes.
Look around.
Maybe take a little hit yourself.
mike baker
Gummies.
I was playing golf the other day with a guy who said he had a big bag of gummies.
joe rogan
Oh, that's a dangerous person.
mike baker
I know, but he said, you want some gummies?
And I was like, I'm playing golf, dude.
I'm just out here playing golf.
And he goes, it's going to improve your game.
joe rogan
Improves pool.
Definitely improves pool.
No.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Smoking pot improves pool tremendously.
mike baker
There's no way.
joe rogan
100%.
I play better.
mike baker
Do you smoke or just edibles?
joe rogan
I do both.
mike baker
Yeah.
joe rogan
But when I smoke pot, well, edibles too.
My game gets about a ball better.
unidentified
Really?
joe rogan
Yeah, a ball better means...
Like, um, if you were, uh, playing someone and they, you're like playing nine ball, someone would give you the eight ball if they were a little bit better than you.
mike baker
Yeah.
joe rogan
I, I'm like one ball better.
mike baker
Okay.
joe rogan
When I, when I smoke pot, I, I have a better feel.
mike baker
That's interesting.
joe rogan
Yeah.
mike baker
Yeah.
joe rogan
A lot of, a lot of pool players, like high level pool players, like Earl Strickland, one of the best pool players of all time.
mike baker
Right.
joe rogan
Smokes a lot of weed.
mike baker
Really?
Or they, or at least used to.
Is it sort of like the halfway, like what do they call it, uh, What do they call it?
Delta 8 or something like that?
joe rogan
Yeah, what is that shit, Jamie?
You were telling me about the stuff that's legal, right?
What is that stuff?
jamie vernon
I haven't gotten to buy it yet.
mike baker
What's that?
joe rogan
It's legal, though, right?
There's some weird...
jamie vernon
What is it?
It's like a variation or...
unidentified
I think it's called Delta 8 THC. Delta 9 is what gets everybody really high.
mike baker
Right, but this is like a more mild...
joe rogan
A little more mild.
mike baker
Yeah, yeah.
And I think it's legal because it's derived from hemp.
And I think, which is not a controlled substance in most states.
joe rogan
Well, me and my friend Tommy Jr., whenever we play, when I see him in New York, he plays real good.
And whenever we play, we get barbecued first, and then we play.
And I'm telling you, you play better.
mike baker
It's better.
joe rogan
Yeah, you play better.
You really do.
mike baker
We play a lot of pool at our house.
Do you?
Yeah, and the boys are very good at it.
joe rogan
Well, if I lose that thousand bucks to you, I know how I'm getting it back.
mike baker
I'll take you up on that, actually.
unidentified
Oh, okay.
mike baker
You come up and hunt some elk up in Idaho, and we'll play some pool.
joe rogan
Oh, you'll play some pool for Monday?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
You better bring a lot of money.
unidentified
You better bring that damn eagle, because I'm going to take that eagle from you.
joe rogan
All right, my friend.
unidentified
Thank you, man.
joe rogan
Well, always good to see you.
Again, your show is coming out.
It's out on Discovery+.
You can get it right now.
And the new season starts...
mike baker
Yeah, it'll start later in the year.
We're starting to film in mid-April.
unidentified
All right.
joe rogan
Well, always fun.
Always fun.
unidentified
Thanks, Mike.
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