Josh Dubin and Jason Flom of the Innocence Project expose how 90% of Rikers Island inmates face petty drug charges, with systemic failures like false confessions (25% of DNA exonerations) and flawed forensics—bite marks misidentified, blood spatter analysis unreliable—leading to mass incarceration. Cases like Myon Burrell’s 20-year wrongful imprisonment, Walter Swift’s parole intervention by trainer Emanuel Stewart, and Anthony Aponovich’s re-imprisonment despite DNA evidence reveal prosecutorial immunity and judicial misconduct. With black Americans jailed at six times apartheid-era South Africa rates, cash bail profits from poverty, and exonerees often denied compensation, their call to action—voting locally, donating to FAMM.org, or demanding reforms—aims to dismantle a broken system that punishes the innocent while failing to address real justice. [Automatically generated summary]
One of my best friends and actually personal heroes.
So Jason and I both work at the Innocence Project.
I'm the...
I'm the ambassador, the innocence ambassador of the Innocence Project in New York.
And we're here to get the word out about wrongful convictions.
We have a podcast.
Jason has had a long, successful podcast called Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom.
I'm the host of a new spinoff of that called Wrongful Conviction and Junk Science, which examines all of these disciplines of forensic sciences that have been proven to be total bullshit, total junk, as the name would suggest.
That you used to be able to clean your weed on and everything else on the album covers.
But, yeah, I've been in the music business since I was 18, so I've signed acts over the years.
Everybody from Stone Temple Pilots and Skid Row, all the way to Tori Amos and Katy Perry and Kid Rock, and more recently Greta Van Fleet and Lorde.
And, you know, it's been an amazing run.
Various times I was chairman and CEO of Atlantic Records, Virgin Records, Capitol Records.
But my calling in life has been...
Eliminating mandatory sentencing, decriminalizing drugs, basically getting people out of prison that don't belong there and reversing mass incarceration, which I believe to be the worst failed social policy disaster since slavery.
And it's really just an extension of slavery.
So I really appreciate you having us here.
And I can't wait to tell you the story of how we first met.
Before we even get started, this makes me excited.
When successful people go out of their way to do something like this where it's just good, you know, you're just trying to right wrongs.
And I couldn't agree with you more.
I mean, the war on drugs is one of the most disgusting And confusing aspects of our enlightened culture.
It's infuriating that we have a gigantic percentage of people that are in prison for nonviolent drug offenses, and then a lot of them are wrongly in prison.
You know what's crazy is that when you said thank you and you like when successful people do this, when you said that, I almost felt like, I don't know the right way to articulate it.
I never feel like I'm doing enough because there's so much bad shit happening to people.
And, you know, I remember reading this book called Inside Rikers.
I forget the author's name, Jennifer Wynn, but she did this study of the population of incarcerated people at Rikers Island and how such a large percentage of them were in there for petty drug crimes.
And the recidivism was all about people that had drug and alcohol problems.
It makes up over 90 percent of the population at Rikers Island.
And she had a revolutionary idea, right?
She said, what if we start a program?
And give them vocational training and put them in jobs.
And the recidivism rate in her program called Fresh Start dropped to almost zero, 0.3%.
And it just shows you that the first episode of my podcast, there was a great quote, and I'm a sucker for quotes, from the guy that I interviewed.
He's an attorney at the Innocence Project named Chris Fabricani.
He said that the justice system is an efficient eating and killing machine for poor people of color.
It's kind of a crazy serendipitous occurrence that happened in the early 90s.
I was on my way to play tennis.
I used to play tennis.
And I wanted a newspaper to read in the taxi ride.
And usually I would buy the Times, but it was sold out.
So I happened to pick up the post.
And there was a story, Cuomo bid, sorry, Ferraro bid for cocaine kid, right?
So the story, of course I read this, I was fascinated by, you know, drugs and stuff.
And the story was about a kid named Stephen Lennon who had been sentenced to 15 years to life for a non-violent first offense cocaine possession charge in New York State.
And just in case people think they might be, that might be misstating that.
That was a non-violent first offense cocaine possession charge in New York State.
And the reason it was in the newspaper was because his mother, Shirley Lennon was her name, had been trying to get clemency from Governor Mario Cuomo, Andrew Cuomo's father, of course.
And for you New Yorkers out there, remember that.
And she had gotten letters from the sentencing judge, from the warden, and even Geraldine Ferraro had written a letter on behalf of this kid, you know, who had a good record in prison and everything else, and it had been turned down.
So that's why I made the newspaper.
And I read this, and my whole sense of fairness and equity and everything just got thrown completely out of whack.
I was like, I don't understand.
Like, I kept rereading it and going, this doesn't make any sense.
Nonviolent first offense.
Like, it could be anybody, right?
Wrong place, wrong time kind of thing.
And I decided I wanted to do something about it.
So I only knew one criminal defense lawyer back in those days.
And there was a guy named Bob Collina.
He represented Stone Temple Pilots and Skid Row, who both were artists that I had signed.
And so I had him on speed dial because, you know, they were getting arrested a lot in those days and, like, weekly.
So Bob agreed to take the case pro bono, and long story short, even though he said it was hopeless, six months later we ended up in a courtroom in Malone, New York.
And I sat there holding Mrs. Lennon's hand, the woman I originally spoke to, Shirley Lennon, who was in the story.
Her husband Stan was on the other side of her.
And they brought the kid in in shackles, like he was Manson or something, right?
Leg irons.
I was like, this is all new to me.
I'm just like, what the hell?
And, you know, skinny guy with glasses, whatever.
And the judge looked like Ted Forsyth.
I thought, we're screwed, right?
There's no way this guy's gonna, he's an old guy with white hair.
And the arguments went back and forth.
I knew nothing about what was going on.
And finally, the judge says, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever he said, and he goes, the motion is granted.
And he bangs the gavel down.
And Bob comes running over.
I go, Bob, what just happened?
He goes, we won.
I go, we won?
Get the fuck out of here.
We won?
And he's like, we won.
I was like, holy shit, that's incredible.
And it was the best feeling I'd ever had.
And they sent the kid home.
He had served nine years.
But he had six to go before his parole, his first eligible parole date.
And I was hooked.
So I did a little research just to bring it to a close.
I found out about an organization called Families Against Mandatory Minimums, FAMM.org, which had just started.
And I joined their board.
And then soon after that, I found out about the work of the Innocence Project.
And I marched in and just offered my services for whatever they needed.
So I didn't return the call because I thought it was my brother fucking with me.
So I then got a call from a real famous civil rights lawyer named Jerry Lefcourt who said, he said, what the fuck is wrong with you?
I refer you to Barry Sheck and you don't return his phone call?
So I said, Oh, my God.
So I called him.
And at the time, I was, you know, a alleged expert in jury selection.
So I was getting passed around this circle of criminal defense lawyers.
And I had to lie about my age a lot, because I was 27, 28. And I was You know, regarded as an expert in jury selection and people would see me and be like, fuck, am I gonna take advice from this young kid?
So I went and met with Barry Sheck.
Then he had this case where this guy was Like, literally brutalized.
His name was Christopher Ochoa in Austin, Texas.
And he gets implicated in this murder at a pizza hut.
And he's accused of raping and his friend is accused of raping and murdering this employee at a pizza hut.
He had nothing to do with it.
His friend had nothing to do with it and he was a vulnerable kid and they took him in an interrogation room and they beat a confession out of him and I was so horrified.
I was so perplexed that this could happen in our country and what happened to him was They threw things at him.
They threatened him with prison rape.
They did everything that you hear about happening in an interrogation room to him until he finally just said what a lot of people say, which is, okay, I'll tell you what you want to hear just to get out of the room.
And he spent, you know, 13 plus years in prison for a rape and murder he didn't commit.
He implicated his friend.
His life was ruined.
And I said, you know what?
I can't do anything else with my life if I don't commit it to this.
I just have a visceral reaction to it, and I hate it when it's in the form of bullying even more.
You know, as a kid, my brother was a victim of terrible bullying.
I think we all have been at some stage, but he was really, and that really affected me a lot, and maybe that informed me.
I think I learned a lot from my dad, too.
My dad always taught me, you know, about doing the right thing.
I try to do that in my life, you know, but this is my way of giving back and it's extremely rewarding.
I think anyone that's in this work with us would say the same thing, that it's the feeling that you get when you're able to have that impact on someone who's in a position through no fault of their own, that is the most dire circumstance anyone can find themselves in, like some of Josh's clients or our clients sentenced to death.
Julius Jones is one we're working on now.
Of course, James Daly in Florida, innocent on death row.
It's like, those words should never be in the same sentence together.
Well, so, you know, we could pick on any particular one.
And on my podcast, Wrongful Conviction, we've covered a number of death penalty cases.
And, you know, this one, Julius Jones, for instance, and Josh can speak about James Daly, who we also just did a podcast on recently, Josh and I did it together, which I thought was really powerful.
I mean, again, he'll speak about that.
But Julius Jones...
In this case, the actual killer has confessed to numerous people.
We have a different perspective, a slightly different perspective because I'm an attorney that represents these guys and he's a justice advocate.
But he does get to know the facts of the case.
But for me, you know, I have three young kids and, you know, a lot of the crimes are rapes and murders that these guys are accused of, which is why they get long prison sentences, at least the cases that I deal with for the Innocence Project.
And that I take on pro bono.
And I'll give you two examples because I take it – a lot of criminal defense lawyers say, well, you're not supposed to ever ask the question, is the person innocent?
To me, it does matter.
And I had two cases where I demanded of myself and of the client that I really was convinced they were innocent.
And what blows my mind is that science – Is the truth to me.
Good science.
DNA is the truth.
So here we had a case, and this was one where I said, well, I want to be convinced that he's innocent.
So it's the case of this guy named Clemente Aguirre.
And if I tell you this story, you'll say, you got to be making this shit up.
It can't be true.
Because the story from start to finish is just mind-bending.
He's a Honduran immigrant.
He is escaping MS-13 in Honduras.
And he wins like what?
It was like the Honduran version of The Voice, right?
Right, Honduran Idol when he's young, when he's in grade school.
So the gang leaves him alone because he's kind of a novelty.
And he's nicknamed Shorty because he's only 4'11 as a grown person.
He's in his early 20s.
And the violence is getting so bad, he says, I got to get the fuck out of here.
They kill his best friend and dump him in the street in front of him.
So he flees to America and he does the whole circuitous route through Mexico or he tries to get a Mexican accent.
He finds a coyote and he swims across the Rio Grande, almost drowns.
And then he's taken, I mean, that whole story I could spend a half hour on.
He's put in an escape hatch of a car and driven around the country until he finally lands in Samford, Florida.
All right.
And Sanford, Florida is where the Trayvon Martin trial happened.
And I end up in front of the same judge that presided originally over the Trayvon Martin trial.
So Clemente is accused.
He gets to Sanford, Florida on a Saturday.
He begins working at a golf course on a Monday, climbing trees and cutting down branches.
One of the golf members says, I like this kid's work ethic.
You want to come work at my restaurant?
He goes and begins working at the restaurant.
He lives in a trailer.
In the back of a trailer, no shit, on Vagabond Way.
And he's got neighbors who are three generations of poor white trash.
It's a grandmother, a mother, and a daughter.
And he's like a novelty.
They call him Little Mexico.
He's not even from Mexico.
He can't speak English.
And he used to go and do coke with the daughter and Smoke weed, drink.
And it was like an outdoor dorm.
You know, they would go to his trailer.
He would go to hers.
It was like their doors were always unlocked.
He's out one day partying with his friends.
He does coke.
He comes home and it's like five in the morning.
And he wants a beer because he wants to try to come down.
So he waits till the sun comes up and he goes to knock on their door and he sees a bloody shoulder blocking the door and he goes to push it open and the mother has stabbed 129 times.
And he bends down.
He was no stranger to seeing violence.
He bends down to check her.
And the dog starts barking and he hears noise and he picks up, he sees a butcher knife, bloody butcher knife sitting on a box.
And he picks it up and he screams in Spanish, is anyone here?
He then walks into the other room and he sees the grandmother slumped over in her wheelchair.
And he freaks out.
He's about to call the police and he says, wait a second, I'm illegal.
They'll never believe me.
Can you imagine this shit on a cocaine bender?
So he leaves the trailer.
He runs back to his, throws the knife in the grass, takes his bloody clothes off.
His clothes are bloody because he picked up the mother to check her pulse.
Takes off his clothes, throws them in a garbage bag, puts them on top of his trailer.
The boyfriend and the daughter slept out that night.
So the mother and the grandmother are dead.
The daughter slept out that night.
And bear with me because this is worth waiting for.
The police show up a couple of hours later because the boyfriend is sent by the daughter.
The daughter says, I have a weird feeling about my mother and grandmother.
Can you go check on them and get my work clothes?
Because she worked at Subway, the sandwich shop.
So the boyfriend of the daughter discovers the dead bodies, calls 911. The police come.
They come next door to Clementi's trailer and say, did you hear anything last night?
You know anything about this?
He says, no.
He's freaked out.
He then goes to a friend's house and tells his friend what happened.
He said, I'm just going to go back and tell the cops what happened.
This is America, right?
And the friend says, you don't know America.
You need to get the fuck out of town.
He says, no, I'm going back.
I'm going to tell them.
He goes back, walks over there and says, tells him exactly what happened.
They put him in handcuffs and they sit him down and they say, listen, we know how you Latin guys are.
You wanted sex from them, right?
He says, are you out of your fucking mind?
No, I had nothing to do with this.
P.S. Long story short, he gets tried, convicted, and put on death row in Florida.
The crime scene analysts sat on their hands and knees for days in the stinking Florida heat and scraping blood swabs in the trailer.
Okay?
151 blood swabs.
And what they're swabbing for is not the victim's blood.
They know it's the victim's blood.
This woman has been butchered 129 times.
The crime scene analyst in his case testified that we were swabbing for evidence of who the perpetrator was because in a knife fight, the perpetrator often gets nicked and cut, especially when you're stabbing someone that many times.
So when the Innocence Project got the case, they said, well, what were the results of that blood test?
You know how many drops of blood they tested?
Not a single drop of blood.
They never tested a single drop of blood because they thought that he was guilty.
We had the blood tested and right within inches of the mother's body and in a bathroom where the state argued the killer cleaned up is the daughter's blood, a trail of the daughter's blood going to the bathroom, and then the mother's blood on the outside of the daughter's window.
We did just a minimal investigation into the daughter and it turns out that she had a history of crazy violence.
She had a condition called intermittent explosive disorder where you would snap and just go off the rails.
And I'm happy to report that after her examination and then an amazing examination by my co-counsel, Maury Parmer, which explodes a bunch of other lies, the ex-boyfriend's current wife came in and testified that he told her that the daughter killed her and that she snuck out of her house that night, his house that night, climbed out of the window, and then returned later in the night.
They dropped the charges in the middle of his retrial.
And I got to walk him out off of death row.
And in Trump's America, they put an immigration hold on him.
And it was like out of a movie.
He got walked out of the prison to immigration.
And there's like a mounting crowd outside of immigration.
We still don't know how it happened.
I got him an immigration bond and walked him out of the immigration center that night.
And to Jason's point, I have never, other than the birth of my kids, marrying my wife, hitting a home run in Little League, I've never had, I've never floated like that.
Fighters winning world titles that you, no better feeling than to restore someone's life.
Joe, I'll tell you what I had to go through to get it.
I'm not patting myself on the back.
Watch this.
I've skipped one retrial.
The first retrial, I was in front of a judge.
The same judge that denied him post-conviction relief said, I don't care that the daughter's blood is there, that she confessed.
I don't care.
Watch this.
She denied him post-conviction relief.
And he then gets his case overturned in the Supreme Court.
Her credentials to serve as a judge in a death penalty case had lapsed.
After his case gets reversed, she files for special dispensation to become a death penalty judge and says, even though I don't still have my credentials, I want to be the judge on his case, seeks out his case.
They're seeking the death penalty, and she denied him the constitutional protections that the U.S. Constitution said that when you death qualify a jury, if you violate these rules, the case is going back on appeal.
And I would say to her, Your Honor, You don't understand.
We're going to be back here again.
You can't not tell the jury, don't research the case in the hallway.
They're going to research the case in the hallway.
And she wanted to kill him.
And at one point I stood up and I said, I'll tell you something.
I had to go at her so hard.
I find out that she was the judge in the Trayvon Martin case, whose husband represented George Zimmerman and wouldn't recuse herself.
So all of a sudden the papers start picking up that I'm clashing with her in court.
And I at one point had such a run-in with her that I sat down and Clemente was crying.
And I said, I'm sorry.
I thought he was going to fire me because I went at it with her so hard.
And I said, I understand.
And he put his arm on me and he said, she's going to kill me.
He said, please keep doing it.
So I just kept going at her.
And she finally had to declare a mistrial.
Because a juror came in and said that they were all researching the case in the hallway.
And that they thought that he was listening to music because he was listening to the translation on the headphones.
So to get these exonerations, it is such a grueling fight.
And if you meet Clemente, he is the most gentle, kind human being and is still in immigration limbo.
And to tell you what a great man this guy is, I'm in there in Florida, like, fighting, like, I'm thinking there's no fucking way I'm going to get him off.
And he's calling me going, listen, when we get him out...
I'm going to get, we'll get him up in an apartment and we'll pay for this and pay for that.
I thought he was crazy.
I said, this guy has no fucking clue what I'm up against.
And to, you know, I'm such a, I'm so in his debt and I'm so in awe of him, even though he's my friend, that to this day, He and I have jointly supported Clemente financially, but he pays for his room and board and to be able to be in a position to help these guys and just help them start a life again.
And, you know, this guy still believes in America.
After all that's happened to him, he still believes it's the best place to be.
You know, the judge that took over the case, she had to recuse herself in a fit of embarrassment.
And the judge that took over the case was such a beautiful guy.
His name is Judge Galuzzo.
And all he did was uphold the law.
And he—the prosecutors would come in and try to get rid of jurors that said, I believe that, you know, I'll listen to the facts and I will only get rid of, you know, I will consider life instead of death.
And he was just so—and he— You know, they have immunity is the short answer.
These judges and prosecutors, one of the many flaws of our system, right, Jason, is that they all have immunity.
And my co-counsel, Lindsey Boney and Dylan Black, Southern gentlemen, who this case changed their lives, and that's Maury Parmer, who I mentioned before.
He would go into court when he was that guy in the white and he would throw a fit.
I'm fucking innocent.
Who the fuck are you to do this to me?
Early in his court appearances, when I knew him, he was very docile.
So he acted exactly how I would expect someone to act.
So watch this.
Three days after he gets out, I always told him, I'm going to get you out of here in jail, I would say, and I'm going to take you to the beach and we're going to have a beer.
And I would say to Jason, I'm starting to think that I'm not going to be able to live up to it.
And I get a call like two days after he's out.
We're in a hotel.
And I said, you know, he got located at this place called the Sunny Center in Tampa.
It's this property where they have like efficiency apartments for death rogues honorees.
And Jason goes to me, that's my place.
I bought the property.
I didn't even know it.
I mean, he's like, this guy's like fucking Robin Hood.
And I actually, it's funny, Joe, because you mentioned the music business before.
I actually had that experience about a year ago.
This is off topic, but I can't help saying this because it's on my mind.
About a year ago, I was visiting an innocent guy.
Well, no, a year and a half ago now because it was early, late January.
I was visiting an innocent guy on death row in Texas named Rob Will.
And I left there and flew to LA. That was on a Monday.
I was down there.
And then flew to LA and ended up going to the Grammys on Sunday.
And ended up, you know, moving around some seats, whatever, and sitting in the front row.
And I had that feeling.
I was like, holy shit, what a week!
I literally went from death row to the front row.
It's a strange life that I leave.
It's a double life.
But it really gives a lot of meaning to our days.
And it's important.
I can't help talking about the death penalty when we talk about Shorty Clemente because in this country, a lot of people still believe in the death penalty.
And I don't.
And what I say to people who believe in the death penalty is I respect your view, but what percentage of innocent people are you okay with executing?
Because the system is fundamentally flawed.
And even if the system was reformed in all the ways that we could sit here and think of, and I have some ideas on that.
There's still going to be errors.
There's always going to be errors made.
And so you have to accept that there are going to be mistakes.
We know that, like in Florida, where Josh represents James Daly, and again, we did a podcast episode about his case as well.
James is either going to be the 100th guy executed by the state of Florida or the 30th guy exonerated from death row.
So they're not, even if all the people they executed were guilty, and we know they weren't, right?
We know certain people like Jesse Tepero, who was absolutely innocent, executed by the state of Florida, in that gruesome execution where the electric chair quote-unquote malfunctioned and his head caught on fire, and they had to electrocute him three times.
But even if they got those right, they aren't even batting 700. And then in Louisiana, you know, to your point before, Joe, a guy named John Thompson, rest in peace, was a good friend of mine.
He came within a month of being executed by the state of Louisiana when an attorney, investigator, staring into a microscope and saw the DNA evidence that proved that he was not guilty of this murder and he was ultimately exonerated.
And he wrote an opinion piece in the New York Times where he said, I don't understand why...
The prosecutor who prosecuted, because he proved that they knew he was innocent before they prosecuted him, right?
He knew it, and it was absolutely proven that was not in question.
So he said, I don't understand why that prosecutor is not being charged with attempted murder.
They tried to kill me, and they knew I was innocent, and I've proven that.
And that's why we're so appreciative that you give us this forum because there are so many amazing people.
That it really literally takes being in the bowels, if you will, of the system and getting it beneath your fingernails and standing up and speaking truth to power.
And there's so many factors that go into wrongful convictions, Joe.
We see them again and again.
Tunnel vision is one, right?
They lock in on you.
They decide you're the guy.
And then new evidence comes in and says he did it.
They don't want to hear it.
It's a psychological thing.
It's also blind ambition.
And there are so many factors that I think some of them are preventable.
And when we set out to do these podcasts, whether it's the wrongful conviction one or junk science that Josh is the host of that just came out, or even the false confession series that we did, Our goal is to educate the public because your listeners, you and me, everyone, Jamie over here, the engineer, is going to end up on a jury at some point.
You may be holding somebody's life in your hands.
And it's important for you to understand that the people that you hope that are going to be telling you the truth, that you respect because they're authority figures, right?
I grew up respecting uniforms and everything else, and I still do.
But the fact is they may not be telling the truth.
And just because somebody says they're an expert, that's what Josh talks about on his podcast, doesn't mean they're really an expert.
They may be talking about things that are actually junk science.
And furthermore, they're allowed to lie in the interrogation room.
And this is something if we get nothing else across today, I always tell people when I do talks and on my show, I talk about the fact that if you get picked up and brought in for questioning – You know, people who are innocent waive their Miranda rights.
85% of people waive their Miranda rights anyway.
People who are innocent almost always do because they don't think they have anything to hide.
They think, I'll just go in.
I'll tell them what, you know, like I wasn't there or I was with my mom, whatever it was, and I go home.
And they may not say that you're a suspect at all.
They may say, we just want to ask you a few questions.
So the answer is, if that happens to you, The only thing you should say is, this is my, I'm Joe Rogan and I want a lawyer.
Or whatever your name is, whoever's listening.
Those are the only words you should say because they're not your friends.
And you can get talked, in that interrogation room, crazy shit happens.
They don't always beat people up.
They don't need to.
They can use coercive psychological tactics that can get people to confess to crimes that they didn't commit.
And once you start talking, and you're in that little airless room, we've seen it on TV, right?
And they start the good cop, bad cop, and they intimidate you, and they threaten you with the death penalty, and they're allowed to lie.
I mean, other Western countries, they're not, but here they are.
So they can sit there, especially, and you know the people that are most likely to falsely confess are people, adolescents, right?
Anyone whose brain is not fully formed, and we know that your brain is not fully formed until you're 25, and military veterans, interestingly enough, and they're disproportionately affected by this because they're used to obeying authority figures, right, and following orders.
And so the Norfolk Four, a classic case of that, four guys confessed to a crime they didn't commit.
And Joe asked – you asked the critical question, which is why are they allowed to do it?
Because there's not a law.
No one has the balls.
All these blowhard politicians have the balls to introduce – because they're afraid to piss off the police union because they'll lose that vote, right?
Introduce legislation that makes it a crime to lie to a suspect.
Think about the mindfuck that's going on here.
And remember, the psychology is we're going to deprive you of sleep.
We're going to deprive you of food.
We're going to scare the living shit out of you.
And we're going to lie to you.
We're going to lie to you and make you...
You ever see that Chris Rock bit where he's like, cop pulled me over.
And after a while, I'm like, damn, maybe I fucking did do it.
It's like that shit is going on.
And it's like, you know, you're like...
Maybe I did something and didn't remember it.
That's what they start getting you to believe.
Because if they're telling me, they're saying, Joe, listen, we have, how the fuck do you explain how your DNA is on the victim?
How do you explain that?
And you're thinking to yourself, I can't fucking explain that.
A, I didn't do it, but maybe, I don't know, maybe I did something and don't remember it.
And then there's this.
Which is, you'll hear from a lot of people that are victims of coercive interrogations is, I figured I would just tell them what they wanted to hear, get out of the room, and then sort it out.
And it goes on even after the conviction has been overturned, like in Clemente's case, like in my own adopted daughter, Nora Jackson's case, where the Tennessee Supreme Court unanimously overturned her conviction for murdering her own mother.
And in their ruling, they excoriated the prosecutors for having played so loose with the rules, right, to say the least.
And yet they came back in and said, listen, we're going to try you again unless you take a plea.
And most people say to me, well, they can't try you again for the same thing.
But they can because the higher court, when they overturn your conviction, the indictment still stands, the original indictment.
And most prosecutors will say, well, you know what, it's a long time ago and we've been proven wrong and, you know, we're going to let it go.
But if they really are vindictive, they may say, you know what, I want to protect this conviction.
And let's not forget that every time we convict an innocent person, The real perpetrator remains free.
And even if you're someone who may be pretty hardline, hardcore on law and order, whatever, a lot of your listeners come from different walks of life, different viewpoints.
But everybody can agree that we want the person, especially these vicious, violent crimes, these brutal crimes, we should all want the real perpetrator off the street and not for the convenient purpose.
Target to just get, you know, manhandled and brutalized by the system.
And then that other perpetrator oftentimes goes on to commit more terrible crimes and creates more innocent victims.
Josh, you were talking about Kamala Harris, and I think this might be a good time to talk about this because she might be the vice presidential nominee.
What specifically did she do where there was someone who was innocent or someone who was wrongfully convicted?
The George Gage case where her prosecutors hid evidence and they tried to protect – once she knew that there was evidence that was withheld from defense attorneys, once she should have known, in my opinion, that people were innocent, she tried to protect those convictions.
Why?
Because she wanted to continue winning.
She blocked DNA. She went to great lengths to try to block access to DNA for people that were accused of or convicted of felonies.
Think about it.
We're talking about a $12 DNA test to see if the biological material from a crime That has been preserved is actually the defendants, right?
You know, when she's asked for her justification of it, it's always been on a debate stage.
And she'll always default to, I stand by my record as a prosecutor.
And she's never had an explanation that I have ever seen.
I don't know, Jason, there was, Jason and I were talking about this before we came on today, because there was a New York Times piece by, her name's escaping me.
Lara Bazelon, which if any of your listeners want to listen to it, she goes into, you know, exhaustive detail about specific cases and things that Kamala Harris did.
And, you know, the sad part about it, yeah, that's it right there.
She could have demanded DNA testing in Cooper's case.
Now, Kevin Cooper is on death row, all right?
You think about this.
If they had denied DNA testing in Clemente's case, he would have been either dead or still on death row.
What are we talking about here?
We're talking about a test.
She has constantly in case after case, issue after issue.
And look, the people that she hurts the most are people of color in this country because they make up, you know, Disproportionate number of people in jail.
She went after the parents of truant children and threatened them with jail time.
Imagine you're a single mom, you're just doing your best to put food on the table, you have to work two jobs, and your kids are understandably fucking up and not going to school because there's no father around.
And the way that they found out that it was planted is that when your hair...
You're going to love this, right?
When the hair is attached to the human head, when you die, there's a physiological phenomenon that happens called post-mortem root banding, where a band goes around the root of your hair And it happens after you've been dead the minimum four hours.
Prosecution's theory is that he picks up this girl, 16-year-old girl, walking home from the roller skating rink with his two buddies, throws her in a van, they rape her, kill her, and dump her near a cemetery, and it all happens in 45 minutes.
The way that they finally find out that he was framed is it's a moving truck.
They search his moving truck and they find hundreds of hairs because we all shed hair.
They find one hair from the victim, and it's pristine.
It's the only pristine hair in the truck.
No kinks on it, no dirt, no debris.
And there's a post-mortem root band around it, which means they had to have taken it from the autopsy.
And we ended up finding out that the cop had access to the envelopes where the autopsy was.
In any event, John Restivo, back to the DNA, the perpetrator ejaculated, And they had a lot of semen, a lot of biological material DNA. He fought for years to get access to the DNA. Finally gets access to it.
They test the DNA and he's excluded and his two co-defendants are excluded.
All right?
What the prosecutor does is they say, okay, well, there must have been a fourth perpetrator.
So they start testing, and this is a process that took years.
They start five years.
They start testing every single known male associate of John Restivo, Dennis Halstead, and John Kogut, and it's only after that.
That he gets out.
He spent 18 years for a rape and murder he didn't commit.
I love him.
He's like a brother to me now, but he's destroyed.
There's a happy ending in that regard in John's story.
I was one of the lawyers that represented him in his civil rights trial.
He was awarded 18 million dollars, a million dollars for every year that he was incarcerated.
And you know, to show you like what the lasting psychological damage, so we got to go to a civil jury for civil rights violations against Nassau County, which indemnified this cop that framed him.
And he got some closure that way, to the extent that you can get any closure.
And we were outside waiting for the verdict outside of the courthouse, and he's smoking a cigarette.
And he put out the cigarette and he took a paper bag, he took a plastic bag out of his pocket, grabbed the butt and put it in the plastic bag and sealed it and put it in his pocket.
I said, John, what the fuck are you doing?
He said, you think I'm going to let someone take my DNA and free me again?
You know, and I get, you know, that's how bad it is.
So think about that in the context of Kamala Harris.
To block access to DNA, once you get the fucking DNA, you're still sometimes in a crazy uphill battle because there's prosecutors, in my opinion, just like Kamala Harris, that want to win and want to protect that conviction.
I mean, we had a lot of evidence that he was innocent, and the state refused to let us test it, and they went ahead and executed him anyway.
We also have cases like the Sedley Alley case.
Which, ironically, is the same prosecutor that prosecuted my adopted daughter, Nora Jackson.
But in Sedley Alley's case, he was executed, and the state denied him access to DNA. It was a horrible crime.
A young cadet girl was jogging, and she was brutally, I think, raped and murdered.
And he was executed for this crime, asking for the DNA to be tested.
And the state refused.
And five years later, the higher court said, oh, you guys made a mistake.
You should have allowed the DNA testing.
Now his daughter has come forward and said, I want to know.
I want my dad's DNA tested.
I want to prove his innocence.
And we now have evidence of who we think it might have been because there was another guy who was a serial murderer and rapist who was in that area at that time.
We don't know that it was him, but until we test the DNA, we can't know.
And the state has refused to let her test it, even posthumously.
So this goes on all over the country, and it's crazy.
Of course we want the DNA tested.
Everybody should want the DNA tested.
But one thing I do want to point out is that it's gratifying to see attention being brought by you and by others, people who are so prominent in society, and it's also become Such a hot-button issue that if you look at, for instance, A.B. Klobuchar, right?
I mean, her campaign was derailed because people were going, hey, what about Mayan Burrell, which was a 16-year-old kid that she prosecuted.
There was evidence of his innocence.
She ignored all of it.
He's still in prison 20 years later.
And she touted this as a, you know, like she bragged about it.
There's a connection because it had something to do with him and the prior cases where he had exhibited police brutality.
And that they had done nothing about it.
She was connected to that in many people's eyes was eliminating her as being a possible candidate for vice president because they thought it was going to come up.
But maybe now, Joe, maybe now we will have an environment where...
Prosecutors, we know, are ambitious people, generally speaking.
Everyone is, and everyone has the right to succeed to the level that they are capable of succeeding to, but not by cheating, right?
Going back to what you said before, but now there's finally, even though there are no legal consequences, Except in the rarest, rarest, rarest of cases.
But now, at least, there are real consequences in terms of running for higher office where these things can come back and bite you in the ass.
We can go back through it, but it's a disgusting case.
But he's still there, just like so many of these other people are.
And I do want to talk about the compensation, because you raised that earlier, Joe, because I think that's an important thing for us to talk about.
Because in the 27 years I've been doing this work, People ask me the question that you asked, both questions that you asked, actually.
Most frequently, people who are new to it, I'm talking to them on the golf course, I'm talking to them anywhere we are, because I'm always out there talking about this stuff.
And they'll say to me, did the people who framed them, did they have to face any consequences, right?
And the answer is almost always no.
And then they say, well, tell me that they got compensated.
Like people like breathless, right?
Like, I want to know, like, this is so horrible.
They react the way you did this, cry, anything, right?
And the answer is usually not.
I mean, this Restivo case, and John is such a beautiful, beautiful guy.
He also was on my podcast.
What a guy, man.
He's incredible.
And he's helping other exonerees, too, as so many others are.
And I want to shout him out for that.
But in the majority of cases, there's no compensation.
At the Innocence Project, and that's innocenceproject.org for people who want to learn more, we are working state by state.
Rebecca Brown runs our policy department.
She's incredible.
And she's going state by state with exonerees to pass compensation statutes because 18 states have no compensation statute whatsoever for exonerees.
And some of them, it's capped at $25,000.
Or like in Illinois, it's 200,000 no matter how long you're in for.
You know, the judgment against him was covered by Nassau County.
He died a horrible death of cancer.
And, you know, John always says to me, look, I would never wish ill on anyone, but it seems like karma played a part in that.
You know, and it's interesting.
You asked the question earlier that I'm not so sure I know the answer to, which is, you know, when they're in there interrogating someone, are they beating a confession out of them because they think they did it or not?
And I don't know the answer.
I think that there are some cops that, you know, Barry Sheck taught me this once.
He said, don't always demonize the cop because sometimes I think that they feel like That their hunch is better than the lack of evidence.
In other words, they feel like, because they feel it, they think that the person did it, that they'll let the means justify, or the ends justify the means.
So I don't know that they go in trying to frame someone, but there's always a point at which, like the story with my wife and the keys, where you have a choice to, you have to open your eyes and say, You know, are...
Am I going to realize that there's no evidence here and get off this notion that this person committed the crime?
I mean, listen, it extends the compensation issue.
Watch what happened to Clemente.
There's a wrongful incarceration compensation statute in Florida, all right?
And what it says is that from the time you were no longer incarcerated, You have 90 days to file.
Clementi's case got overturned in, I think, 2013. The very day the Florida Supreme Court overturned his conviction, the state of Florida said, we're going to retry you.
They announced it the same day.
We filed for wrongful incarceration compensation, and it got denied.
And what the state said was, On the day that they announced they were going to retry him, he was no longer incarcerated.
He went from being incarcerated to being in custody.
And said, wow, that's pretty fucking rich.
So in other words, what he should have thought...
I'm going to face the death penalty again for a crime I didn't commit.
No one came to his prison cell and said, by the way, you're no longer incarcerated.
You're just in custody.
So they write these statutes in a way that they have a trap door to jump out of and his compensation was denied.
So I filed a federal civil rights complaint on his behalf.
We have a civil case going.
But it's very rare that they get compensated.
And I think that that's where I have been...
I'm inspired so much by Jason because here's a guy that uses and it's made me poorer, but I'm happy to be poor as a result because he's made it his mission in life.
I mean, he's like a modern day Robin Hood.
He really is.
He's made it his mission in life to, I'm sorry if I make you blush, but he's like a hero of mine because he's He has made it his life's calling that, you know, the people in need and that need it most are going to get it as long as he can give it.
And he's sort of brought me along on that ride.
So we personally financially support as many exonerees as we can because we feel like it's the very least we can do to try to help, whether it's buying someone a car I'm helping them with their rent, with school tuition, whatever it is, because it's the very least we can do, and most of them are denied compensation.
And until they can get back on their feet in some way, I mean, you think about it.
They come out.
Their life is ruined.
You don't ever really—I don't care what anybody says.
You never really recover from this.
I mean, look, Clemente— Would send my daughter from his prison cell exquisite drawings.
He taught himself to draw on death row and he told me the only reason I learned to draw is because I literally would have lost my mind.
I was losing my mind and I had to figure out something to channel my anxiety.
So when he got out, Jason has been having these art shows for death row inmates because so many of them become good artists because they have so much time on their hands.
And I said, Clemente, maybe we could do some art and raise some money for you.
And he started to weep.
I said, what's wrong?
He said, Josh, I tried to draw and I had a panic attack.
We've been supporting the local attorney, very good local attorney, Mike Whelan.
In this case.
And Josh, you know, he's spending, not only is he volunteering his services, he's spending his own money to finance the case, the parts that he can't cover himself.
And he gets mad at me.
Like, if we alternate payments, and if I take two in a row, he gets mad at me.
Dude, who are you?
What the fuck is this?
Some Mother Teresa shit he's on, whatever.
It doesn't matter.
But the point is that I'm really excited that he's now doing this new podcast, Junk Science.
And by the way, if anybody wants to learn more about this, I post about it all the time on my Instagram, which is at It's Jason Flom.
There's another Jason Flom who was a schoolteacher in Tallahassee.
He got there first.
But now we know each other.
But anyway, It's Jason Flom is my Instagram, and I'm always posting about these cases.
So Josh is now hosting a podcast called Junk Science.
There's all different factors that cause your blood pressure to rise.
You may just have high blood pressure.
Your heart may beat faster and you get anxious in different situations.
So it just doesn't work.
And it's not admissible in any courts.
But I'm talking about things that you would probably think, just based on pop media, even if you're very well-read, which you are, you would say, oh, well, that's reliable, like bite mark evidence.
It's complete junk science.
And the National Academy of Sciences is the gold standard.
It's got the finest scientists in the country that did a review of all of the forensic disciplines that are used in courts.
And found that with the exception of DNA, all of these are fraught with problems.
Bite mark evidence, blood spatter, arson.
Coercion and coerced confession.
So what the podcast does is it examines all of these episode by episode.
It examines all of these forensic disciplines and it goes through to explain how and why, A, they're total bullshit and B, they are...
In the face of it being total bullshit, still accepted.
Now, like, the fact that you got emotional made me want to hug you because it was like, you know, it takes a special person to be able to get there on that level.
But now I want to try to make you angry because I think it's the anger that should drive people.
You want to know the difference between a mouthpiece and human skin?
Everything.
Your skin is different than my skin in thickness, in consistency, if you're flexing when I bite you, if it's during a struggle or not.
And you have to follow the science.
Is that bite marks on human skin are not only unreliable, but there has been study after study that the so-called experts that they call odontologists can't tell the difference between a bite mark and an insect bite.
They can't even agree.
They were all shown, the self-professed finest odontologists in the country are all shown pictures of marks on human skin.
They can't even agree as a threshold matter what's a bite mark and what isn't.
Not only is it bullshit, but the origin story of all these forensic sciences, you end up down a rabbit hole to some fucked up story that sounds like a wacky religion.
Take bite marks, for instance.
There's a guy named George Burroughs who's a reverend in the late 1690s.
He's accused of torturing young girls, okay?
And one of the forms of torture is biting them.
And he's tried and convicted and they take him around the courtroom and pull his mouth open and they point to the crookedness of his teeth, the ridges in his molars, and they compare it to the bite mark.
And he's hanged publicly.
And he cites the Lord's Prayer at his hanging.
And everybody in the crowd is like, that's kind of fucked up.
Because witches aren't supposed to be able to cite the Lord's Prayer.
Because this was a trial during the Salem Witch Trials.
He's the first posthumous exoneration I'm aware of.
Twenty years after this, they end up finding out that George Burroughs was in a different town altogether.
Not only did him bite these people, but that the marks weren't even bites.
The colony of Massachusetts pays his family compensation.
So watch this.
In the 1970s, there's a guy named Walter Marks that is accused of biting a victim in a murder.
And the court in that case says, you know what?
There is no established science here.
It can't be replicated.
But bite marks are associated with, you know, identifying accident victims, burn victims, and admits it.
And it gets admitted into evidence.
The appellate court says, well, if the judge found it credible, who are we to overturn it?
And so, Joe, watch this.
It now infects, and it's probably an unpopular analogy to use now, but it spreads across the criminal justice system like a virus.
Every court just starts citing this Marx case.
And judges just start admitting it.
The National Academy of Forensic Sciences found that there's no way to replicate it, that it's unreliable.
There's this fucking crackpot named West, who is an odontologist that claimed to use 3D pictures and ultraviolet.
So they set him up.
They sent him...
You know, bite marks and the mold of the teeth from someone other than the defendant and said, we think this is the defendant.
Can you match it to this bite mark?
And he said, yes.
They had sent him the bite mark of someone other than the defendant.
I mean, it is that bad of a junk science.
So what we're hoping to do is through the podcast to educate people because you're right.
How do you overhaul a system?
It's a monster.
And one of the ways that you can overhaul the system is, you know, everybody says, how do you, they ask me a lot, how do I get out of jury service?
And I say, you know what, you should want to be there because God forbid you were accused of something you didn't do, wouldn't you want you on your jury?
So one of the ways we want to do it is to get people thinking, you know what, I can make a difference here.
Because there's no presumption of innocence.
We throw that around like it exists.
It doesn't exist.
There have been studies done, my firm has done one, where well over 90% of people feel like if you've been accused of a crime, you probably did it.
Look, I represented, how I met Lennox, I represented Lennox in a case.
Lennox was suing a boxing manager and a promoter from ripping him off and for stealing from him.
But if you ask people during jury selection, how many of you in a criminal case, and when I was, you know, a lot of jurors were asking, well, what did he do?
He didn't do anything.
But if you ask jurors in a criminal case, if a judge will let you ask it, which you should be able to ask, how many of you think my client, he was arrested, indicted, must have done something wrong?
Well, hands go flying up.
And, you know, it should be a basis to get rid of people.
That's not the presumption of innocence.
That's the assumption of guilt.
It doesn't exist in this country and it takes more people to be conscientious.
And one of the things that we're trying to do on the podcast is educate them about these junk sciences so that if you're ever on a jury and you hear, well, the trajectory of the blood mark on the wall shows you that the person must have grabbed the knife from this angle.
So the second episode of the podcast I have a guest by the name of Pamela Koloff, who's an award-winning writer.
She just won every award you could win for writing an article about an informant in a case of mine.
And I got to know her and she wrote an amazing investigative piece about blood spatter evidence for ProPublica or Texas Monthly or the New York Times.
One of those three, I should know.
And she went undercover deep and she became a certified blood spatter analyst as part of her research.
This is a discipline that was born in the basement of some whack job up in New York.
He called it the National Forensic Laboratory or some shit like that.
And it was his basement in his house.
And he would do things like recreate crimes by like...
You know, hitting cadavers and watching the blood spatter.
And just like think about it.
There's so many things wrong with that.
The way the blood travels out of the body from a static...
You know, a static body versus one where blood is circulating already changes it.
The temperature of the blood is different.
If you're struggling and I hit you with a blunt force object, a hammer, a bat, and your arm is coming up this way, depends on the speed your arm is traveling.
As is bite-mark evidence, even though in all 50 states, as is even though the highest court in Texas, based in the work of the Innocence Project, I mean the highest authority in Texas, strongly admonished the courts not to consider blood, to consider bite-mark evidence, but they still do, in spite of the fact that there's case after case that proves that these guys who make themselves out to be these experts don't know anything about what they're talking about.
I mean, it's We should all be embarrassed and ashamed that this is allowed to go on in our courts.
You think about it, Joe, forensic odontology was created as a practice so that if there's a disaster, if there's a plane crash, right, and bodies are obliterated, they can take a full set of teeth and they can compare it to your dental records.
Now you take the idea that someone's going to bite an imperfect surface, right?
Like a finger or, you know, your neck or whatever it is, right?
And now you're going to go with a couple of teeth on an imperfect surface days or weeks later, and you're going to go, this must be Joe's teeth, because sometimes they don't even know if you have teeth or not.
Like, for instance, there's this guy who runs this computer algorithm.
And he claims to be able to take a mixture of a bunch of different people's DNA and untangle it, right?
And basically be able to say whose DNA is what.
And, you know, he won't give the source code for his data and And, you know, this shouldn't be a black box.
So there's some things going on like that.
But for the most part, when it's done correctly and the right standards are applied, you can bet on DNA. But a lot of these pattern matching disciplines, blood spatter, fingerprints in some instances, bite mark evidence, you know, and what are the other ones?
I always wonder, because I would see a house burnt to the ground, and they would say, oh, they determined it was started by a fire, and this is how they determined it.
I was just going to say that what happens with a lot of these forensic sciences is they reverse engineer an outcome.
So they decide that the person did it.
And there's all this confirmation bias.
I know that I've heard you talk about it.
You're familiar with it.
You know the desired outcome, so you confirm that bias.
So, you know, they then start looking at a streak from a smoke stain on the wall and knowing that the theory is that there was a match struck and placed against the wall, right?
They will say, well, that's why you see the pattern that you do of that stain on the wall of smoke.
Where the reality is that there are a lot of different explanations for how something can look, the scientific analysis of charred remains, not remains of people, but remains of different things, chemical compounds and things.
And if you're working to reverse engineer an outcome, And it's easy to make this stuff sound reliable because if you don't have experience with it – I mean, look, this is a big – I hadn't done any bite mark cases in all of my cases.
So I actually tried to approach it with an open mind.
I'm literally stunned at what I'm finding out doing research for the episodes because it sounds like some wacky religion.
You know, that somebody invented in their house and people buy it.
So is all this stuff still in use because no one has exposed the fact that it's all junk science?
Or is it because it's established as a part of what they accept in trials and they just haven't made the corrections yet?
Because if they did, then they would have to accept the fact that all these other convictions that were based on this junk science would be open to reinterpretation?
In the trailer for Junk Science, Josh addresses exactly that, and he does it very eloquently, which is that, along with Chris Fabrikant, who is the Strategic Litigation Director at the Innocence Project, it was actually a post I created in honor of my dad, who's not with us anymore.
Well, I helped to create, I should say.
And he does an incredible job.
But basically, they keep using it because the precedent is there, right?
And Josh talks about this, and maybe we could even play the trailer.
You know, it's interesting too, Joe, because you, you know, earlier I made this like, it seemed probably out of place, this reference to Lennox Lewis.
And the reason I made it is because it blew my mind at how many people walk into a court proceeding I think it's pretty obvious, though.
But the preconceived notion that people walk into any criminal courtroom with is that the person must have done it.
Most people think that if someone was arrested or accused, they must have done it.
So that was why I said earlier the presumption of...
So then when you hear this impressive sounding lingo about something you don't know anything about, and there's someone who is qualified as a quote-unquote expert, And they're sitting there using language you don't know.
You can't really fault the jurors for falling victim to it.
So that's what we're hoping to do is one mind at a time open up people's minds, if you will, and they're thinking about the way that they approach the accused in this country.
Whether it be bite marks or arson or blood spatter, for one court to accept a quote-unquote science as valid can lead to the spreading of that science, much like a virus, across the criminal justice system.
Cameron Todd Willingham, rest in peace, was executed by the state of Texas in an arson case where his three children all died.
And this woman, the wonderful advocate who had befriended him while he was in prison, got a hold of the top fire expert in the world, a guy from England, who has like over 100 patents, invented everything, and he proved all 20 of the prosecution's Those theses were wrong and that it had to be an electrical fire, which is what it was.
It's 2.38 as we speak, so we'll get you home for dinner.
But if you don't mind, I would love to just put a sort of a shameless plug out there because this bullying thing bothers me so much that I wrote a children's book about it with my other daughter, Allison.
It's called Lulu is a Rhinoceros, and it's about my bulldog, Lulu, who's actually not a bulldog at all.
She's a rhinoceros trapped in a bulldog's body, and It's about her struggle to find love and acceptance in a world where she's judged by her physical appearance instead of what's in her heart.
Just basically trying to teach kids that it's okay to be different.
In the end of the day, of course, she prevails, but first she endures ridicule and bullying.
I equally hate bullying, but I have an alternative perspective on bullying.
I think it's a natural part of animals.
It's a natural part of finding weakness in systems.
And I think there's a way to fix it.
And I think the way to fix it is very counterintuitive.
It's to teach people how to fight.
And to teach kids how to fight, very young, so they never even think about bullying.
So these instincts to find weaknesses in these systems, these societal systems, systems of friends and systems of communities, instead, you find them in yourself.
Hey, Jason, can we pause on mass incarceration for a minute?
Because you just, like...
I got the chills just now because, you know, as a guy that manages professional prize fighters, you know, I have an eight-year-old son.
And I told you, he's got type 1 diabetes.
And I knew as soon as he got diagnosed, he was, you know, close to his seventh birthday, he's going to get fucked with and picked on because he wears an insulin pump on his arm.
But before that, I had this idea that...
And my wife's a gentle Canadian.
So I took him to Lennox's boxing camp, Lennox Lewis's boxing camp in Jamaica when he was six, right before he got diagnosed.
Then my wife was like...
I don't want him to learn to fight.
And I said, no, that's wrong.
Because had I known to fight better, You know, I would have won some more fights when I got picked on a little bit.
But I wasn't, you know, like I eventually felt like I needed to teach myself to fight or else I was going to get my ass kicked, right?
And so I've been teaching him and Lennox teaches him and Andre Ward teaches him and I always have this tension.
But I tell my wife, like, I think it's the right thing as long as it's taught the right way.
You use it to defend yourself.
Because as soon as someone fucks with you, and you fight back in a way where you put that fire out very quickly, you're not gonna get fucked with anything.
Every fighter that I know that was a great, successful, professional fighter I want to go so far and idealize them, but they are warm, sensitive, sweet human beings.
You have to address your own insecurities, your own problems, your own flaws.
You have to address everything.
There's a difference in strikers versus grapplers.
The difference is in strikers.
Physical attributes are considerably more important.
Physical attributes and speed and power, they're so significant.
Because if you just teach someone how to throw punches correctly, the people that have speed and power, a lot of them, they're just born fast and powerful.
They have great bodies.
When you have that, you have a giant advantage.
Guys with pillow fists, they only go so far.
If you can hit a guy two or three times and all he has to do is hit you once, he can absorb those two or three times and hit you.
But in grappling, it doesn't work that way.
And grappling is technical.
It's almost entirely technical.
Like even me as a black belt, I weigh 200 pounds.
If I grapple another black belt that's 150 pounds, they can tap me out regularly.
I know multiple friends that are much smaller than me.
That are better than me.
That can tap me out.
Because its technique is everything.
And also, you're going to get humiliated and tapped, but you can do it over and over and over again.
When you get punched in the head, you can only get punched in the head a couple of times a month.
We're really rocked.
You can get tapped.
You can get stunned a little bit.
I mean, dropped.
You can only do that so often or you've got fucking permanent brain damage.
I gotta say, not to sound bro-y or douchey about it, but I gotta say, when I started lifting weights and getting physically stronger, probably in college when I started to take it really seriously, I don't think that I would have had...
This may sound dumb, but I know, as a matter of fact, that I would not have had the emotional strength to stand up to judges and the powers that be like I do.
When I got physically stronger, a lot of my insecurities about getting fucked with emotionally and physically faded.
And for me to stand up, not that I'm going to fight a prosecutor, but for me to know in a purely physical world, there's no match here.
I don't know.
It does something for you psychologically to be able to stand up and say, you know, to be able to say, look, you're not fucking doing anything.
I mean, in Clemente's case, at one point, the cop, every time me and the judge got loud, the cop would put, and it's in the transcript, the cop would put his hand and rest it on his gun.
And this was probably not the right move, but I said, what is he doing?
I wanted to throw something in as well because picking up on what you said, Joe, there's an exoneree based in New Orleans named Doug DeLosa who I've developed a tremendous friendship with over the years.
He was wrongfully convicted of murdering his wife and sentenced to life in prison.
Actually wrote his own pro se motion, which means written by the incarcerated person himself.
And it was granted by the Fifth Circuit.
He was the only person to ever do that, and was freed after 14 years.
And a couple years ago, I was speaking to him, because we talk all the time, because he does a lot of work helping other exonerees get back on their feet, and we worked together on that.
And he sounded really down, and I was like, what's wrong, man?
And he goes, man, my grandson is just getting brutally bullied at school.
They broke his glasses, they threw him down the stairs, and this and that.
And I was like, have you thought about taking him to martial arts?
And he said, no, I hadn't really thought about that.
And sure enough, he took his grandson to martial arts, and now he sends me pictures.
He's got this belt.
He's got that belt.
He's got the other belt.
And just like you said, Joe, I mean, I have never met the kid, but I have a lot of respect for him because he's taken the initiative, and he's doing great, and he's going to have a better life, exactly as you said, specifically because of that.
And, you know...
I just wanted to shout him out on the air because...
Actually, someone who I don't have much respect for put him on his card out here in LA. I won't even mention his name.
At least he did that.
And they got him one fight.
But when Dewey was about to get out, Barry Sheck called me and said, listen, do you have someone in New York?
A pro boxer that we could have a meet with it would really boost him so it was the week that he got out I had actually had at the time I was managing Paulie Malignaggi and I had Paulie come meet with Dewey and Paulie was real enamored with the work I was doing at the Innocence Project and Paulie actually took Dewey under his wing and we flew him up to Paulie's rematch with Juan Diaz up in Chicago and Really got him in the dressing room and got him behind the scenes
One thing I learned from Jay Prince, who, by the way, is probably the smartest negotiator, businessman, he would be a fascinating dude for you to speak to.
There was this quote about him when he died by this guy Mark Brudenell in the Detroit Free Press.
He said...
He loved the steak and he dined with pretty women and cops, with corrupt politicians and police chiefs.
He never could deny someone with their hand out and he used bad language but not in front of women and children.
Emanuel was like this Detroit slickster and I never knew the full reach of his star.
His bright shining star in Detroit.
And one night I was at dinner with Barry Sheck.
He's telling me about this case of this guy, Walter Swift, who was in jail for something he didn't do and how he couldn't get the district attorney to pay attention to him.
Well, I think there's a lot of people that know that people are wrongfully convicted, but they don't know exactly what to do and they don't know what, if anything, they can do to help.
Yeah, we'll give you some links to not only whether it's petitions, signing up for the Innocence Project newsletter, you know, keeping your voice up by writing your governor, parole boards, politicians, and, you know, we can give you various ways that people in their communities can help.
And I know you're chomping at the bit to talk wrongful incarceration.
Yeah, and I'm so glad you brought that up, Joe, because there are things that people can do just by making their voices heard, and we need everybody, because this could happen to you, it could happen to somebody you love.
I mean, no one thinks it can until it does, but it does, and it happens all day, every day, in courtrooms around this country.
And the prisons are filled with people, you know, who are actually innocent of the crimes for which they were convicted.
In fact, even, you know, it's interesting you brought that up because I can't leave out Christina Curl.
That's a case I'm working on in Vegas of a woman who's been wrongfully accused of shaking her baby to death.
And I had the top forensic...
The top expert, Barry Sheck, actually referred me to a guy named Randy Papetti, who actually wrote the book on shaken baby syndrome, who looked into this case for me and came back and basically wrote an email saying it is a certainty that nothing was done to this child.
The poor child had a brain that was twice the normal size and suffered from sickle cell as well.
And those factors are what unfortunately led to his demise.
And now they want to lock her up for the rest of her life for something that she didn't do.
Well, they don't know that we know that now, I don't think.
But hopefully this is going to come out.
And I think now we have the Arizona Innocence Project.
Looks like they might get involved.
She's going to have a wonderful team.
And if they decide to take it to court, I am optimistic that justice will be done.
And hopefully we'll head this one off at the pass.
Thinking about you and the Vegas connection, I just had to bring that up.
before we get into the other part of the conversation about mass incarceration, because at the end of the day, that's the underlying problem with all of this.
And of course, as Josh said, we will put petitions.
Maybe we can put the links in your bio.
Maybe we can put them on your Instagram or whatever.
There are a lot of ways for people to help.
And even if you want to talk about that Doug DeLosa guy I was talking about before, the exoneree, this organization, the First 72 Plus, if people want to go to the, it's just first, number 72 plus, plus.org, If you want to donate to help exonerees get back on their feet when they're coming out of the system, that's a great way to do it.
It's a wonderful organization.
They do great work.
And it's so important that we give these people, because even the ones that do get compensation, Josh knows this better than anyone because he does civil law as well, one of the many hats he wears.
But It takes years and they come out to nothing.
They come out to like a world they don't know.
They haven't maybe been on the streets for 20, 30 years or more.
And the process of getting started again is so, so daunting.
And so if people want to look into their hearts and help on that level, that's a simple thing you can do.
You know, go to innocenceproject.org.
That's for sure.
I mean, then there will be steps you can take there.
Of course, we'll talk more about that.
But I did want to touch on mass incarceration as a whole, because at the end of the day...
We have a system where we lock people up at a higher rate per capita than any country in the history of the recorded world.
It wasn't always like this in America.
Our present population has gone up 700% in the last 35-40 years with no benefit to public safety.
None.
Every aspect of it is cruel.
Every aspect of it is unusual, right?
And no other country does it this way.
And so when you look at inside the numbers, right, we have 4.4% of the world's population, but we have 25% of the world's prison population.
So, why is that?
Like, are Americans worse than other people?
No.
Do we have a higher crime rate than other countries?
No.
Is there any benefit to this policy?
No.
Does it cost a fortune to keep this thing going?
Us taxpayers, everyone's paying for it.
You're listening right now, you're paying for it.
Everyone pays for this bloated I'm not going to call it broken because it works the way it was designed, which is as a lever to control people, mostly poor people, mostly people of color.
We lock, and this statistic sounds crazy to me even when I say it, but I know it's true.
We lock black people up in America at six times the rate of South Africa at the height of apartheid.
So we have 33% of the world's female prison populations.
33%?
What in the world are we doing?
And it costs $80 billion is the total incarceration, more or less, budget in this country.
$80 billion.
It's a huge business.
And a lot of it is really a tax on the poor.
And it functions as a way to keep...
Poor communities, poor and desperate.
And that's what it does.
By over-criminalizing these people, by not investing in resources that could actually help those communities, but instead cycling them in and out of prison.
You know, inside those numbers, Joe, we talked about 700,000 pot arrests every year.
Mostly, again, people of color, even though they don't use drugs at a higher rate than white people do.
In fact, most studies show that they use them at a lower rate.
If I tell you how many people are jailed in America every year, and we call this jail churn, right?
And it's important to talk about this now because of COVID, because now a Harvard study came out yesterday showing that this is a real thing, right?
11 to 12 million people are arrested and jailed, at least for a short period of time in America every year.
11 to 12 million!
And those people, forgetting all the other problems with it, in this time of COVID, they go in and out and they bring the disease with them, as do the people who work inside the jails and prisons, right?
I mean, the spread in the prisons is well known now.
Of course it's spreading.
There's nowhere to social distance in a prison cell or in a prison environment.
And, of course, there's all the workers that go in and out, not just the guards, but the, you know, the religious people, the, you know, the social workers, the people who work in all different aspects of the prison maintenance, whatever.
You know, there's—I'll stop talking in a second, but the fact is there's a guy who I hope someday will get to be on your show named Alec Karakatsanis, who's the author of a book called Usual Cruelty, which is like my Bible now.
And it is Usual Cruelty by Alec, A-L-E-C, Karakatsanis.
He's got an organization called Civil Rights Corps, and he's been suing cities and counties all over the country to eliminate cash bail because cash bail is at the root of a lot of these problems.
How so?
So money bail has existed since, you know, I don't know, it was a thousand years since bail was invented, whatever the hell it was, a long time ago.
But bail historically was an unsecured bond, right?
Which meant that they figured out they wanted to charge people if they didn't show up for trial, right?
So what that meant is if you were arrested and you were supposed to show up in court, if you didn't show up, they would send you a bill, right?
And then in 1899, it changed.
And people realized it actually started in San Francisco, strangely enough, which is now actually leading the charge in the other direction.
But in 1899, they decided to start charging people up front.
So you had to post bail money to be free until your trial.
Now, this obviously affected one group of people, poor people, right?
Because, and you know, we always see the mugshots of celebrities, right?
When they're arrested and they're smiling, right?
Because their lawyer is waiting outside to take them to a lobster dinner or whatever the hell they're going to go do.
And what happened is that soon enough, And Alec taught me a lot of this stuff.
Soon enough, it became clear that this could be an incredible profit center, right?
That charging people for their own freedom, it's a bill you can't afford not to pay.
But if you can't afford to pay it, you go to jail.
So then emerged this bail bonds industry, right?
Which is now a multi-billion dollar industry.
And how that works is if you're poor and you can't afford to post bail for yourself, someone will come along and say, if you give me 10% of the money, nonrefundable, whether you're innocent, guilty, whether your charges are dropped in an hour, it doesn't matter.
You give me that money.
I keep it.
I post the rest, which usually they don't even do.
It's just an understanding they have.
And you can go home.
Now, if you don't do that, think about the consequences, right?
So you're picked up for anything, shoplifting, could be mistaken identity, could be any crime at all, or any minor thing.
Misdemeanors make up a huge percentage of the jail population.
Most commonly, it's just driving on a suspended license.
That's the most common cause of arrest, I think, in most places in America, driving on a suspended license.
And they're going to put you in a jail cell.
They're going to deprive you of contact with your family, of your ability to work, of your ability to take a walk, of your ability to avoid violence that may occur to you when you're in that cell, of all different types.
And your very life will be at risk.
If you don't have the money to avoid that, you're now going to be subjected to being in jail.
We have about 450,000 people in jail in America right now as we're sitting here.
We don't know if they did anything or not.
They haven't been tried.
80% of people in jail have never had a trial yet.
And they could sit there for a week, a month, a year, several years awaiting trial.
And that's why most of them will plead guilty within about 3.2 days is the average time someone will plead guilty if they're in jail.
Whereas if they're out, and think about this too, right?
If you're out, you don't plead guilty.
You wait and you have your day in court.
And it also deprives you of the ability to defend yourself, right?
So let's say you're accused of attacking somebody, right?
And beating somebody, whatever, whatever it might be, right?
And you're in jail because you can't post bail.
You can't meet with your lawyer.
They don't have time to come visit you in jail.
You can't get them on the phone readily.
You can't take your lawyer to the scene of the crime to show that you couldn't have been there because, or whatever, or the witness couldn't have seen you because the lights are, whatever it is.
You have no ability to mount an effective defense if you're in jail, which is why 96, 97% of, well, Now we're talking felonies, but 96% of felonies, convictions in this country are a result of guilty pleas because people realize they can't fight it and they can't afford to sit in jail because they could lose their job, they could lose their home, they could lose their family if they don't either put up the money, which they don't have, or plead guilty.
So this is a problem that is being addressed.
Like I said, Alec has been winning lawsuits all over the country because it's a violation of the 6th and the 14th Amendment.
You can't call it equal protection if two different people are charged with the exact same thing, but the one with money goes home and the one without money goes to jail.
That is such a beautiful way to put it and so clear because I've been seeing people talk about different progressives that want to get rid of cash bail and how ridiculous that is.
And what you're saying makes total sense and I've never seen it laid out like that before.
And I didn't know that there were that many people that are in jail for things and they can't post bail because they don't have the money and so they just have to wait for trial.
If you ever really want to see the inequities here and see how the system is so fucked up, go sit.
You could do it – obviously not now, but when the world resumes to some sense of normal.
So you go to any criminal court and watch the arraignments, all right?
And if you watch the arraignments, you will see they parade in all of the arrestees of the last 24 hours and they read their charges.
and they will then set bail.
They will make a decision on bail.
You'll notice two or three things.
One, you'll notice that the vast majority of people in any, certainly in any urban jurisdiction, in any big city, are people of color.
And I sat recently watching this happen in Tampa, Florida, because I was working on the James Daly case, and they did arraignments before my hearing.
And I sat with a bunch of public defenders, and I listened to them wince.
Every time someone of color, a young person of color, is brought in, driving on a suspended license, possession of marijuana, possession of hydrocodone without a prescription, and they set their bail a thousand, ten thousand, seven thousand.
And they would say, well, that person's going to get out.
Or they say, we're going to let you out, but if you don't pay a fine of $1,500 within 60 days, you're back in.
He'll be back in.
I'll be representing him again.
And you watch, as Jason put it, this churn machine.
And you watch how these people of color are treated very differently from white defendants.
And you can just assess based on the fact that the judge will say, do you currently have a job?
No.
Where are you living?
Well, I don't know.
I'm going to stay on someone's couch.
And you start to quickly be able to do the computation in your mind.
Where are they coming up with $1,000 or $500?
And then they will re-offend and end up right back where they were.
And what will really be striking to you is that I would venture to say in the high 80s, in terms of percentage, These people, what they really need is help with an addiction.
And if we put a third of the money that we spend incarcerating people, keeping them incarcerated on drug and alcohol rehabilitation, the incarceration rate would plummet.
And the recidivism rate, you know, people reoffending would plummet.
And not only we don't have to hypothesize, that's in fact what happens.
It happens in countries that, you know, decriminalize drugs and it happens in countries where there's not such an emphasis on jailing people and there's more of an emphasis on getting them help.
And to answer your question, Joe, I just looked it up because I'm going to quote from the book, Usual Cruelty, again by Alec Karkatsanis.
Between 80 and 90 percent of the people charged with crimes are so poor that they cannot afford a lawyer.
25 years into America's incarceration boom, black people were incarcerated at a rate six times that of South Africa during apartheid.
The incarceration rate for black people in the nation's capital where I live is 19 times that of white people.
And it still goes on every day.
And the net benefit to society...
Well, there is no net benefit to society.
In fact, it's been proven in the University of Pennsylvania.
The Quattrone Center did a study that showed that people...
They studied people who were jailed or freed for the exact same crime under the exact same circumstances, right?
And this one posted bail and that one couldn't.
And they found that the people who went to jail, even if for as little as a few days, were 40% more likely to be arrested for another felony in an ensuing year.
So, because their lives fall apart while they're in jail, and then, you know, like I said, they lose their job.
You can't just not show up for work for a few days and be like, I was in jail, you know?
So, you know, and if I could, I'm just going to read the first paragraph of the book.
Because this really, I think, puts it in stark contrast.
The book is called Usual Cruelty by Alec Karakatsanis, which is K-A-R-A-K-A-T-S-A-N-I-S. It's kind of a tongue twister.
And so the book starts off, on January 26, 2014, Sharnel Mitchell was sitting on her couch with her one-year-old daughter on her lap and her four-year-old son to her side.
Armed government agents entered her home, put her in metal restraints, took her from her children, and brought her to the Montgomery City Jail.
Jail staff told Charnel that she owed the city money for old traffic tickets.
The city had privatized a collection of her debts to a for-profit probation company, which had sought a warrant for her arrest.
I happened to be sitting in the courtroom on the morning that Chanel was brought to court along with dozens of other people who had been jailed because they owed the city money.
The judge demanded that Chanel pay or stay in jail.
If she could not pay, she would be kept in a cage until she, quote, sat out her debts at $50 per day or $75 per day if she agreed to clean the courthouse bathrooms and the feces, blood, and mucus from the jail walls.
An hour later, in a windowless cell, Chanel told me that a jail guard had given her a pencil, and she showed me the crumpled court document on the back of which she had calculated how many more weeks of forced labor separated her from her children.
That day she became my first client as a civil rights lawyer.
So, you know, that's really it.
You know, we have this mythology in America that the people in jails are bad people.
A lot of them are there just because they're poor.
There's no other reason that Charnel Mitchell or all these other people are there except they couldn't pay their traffic tickets.
And what are you...
You know, we talked about single parents, right?
What do you do?
You're a single parent.
You have a choice between feeding your kids or paying your traffic ticket or whatever it might be.
These are not bad people.
And the idea that we send more or less like a SWAT team to the home of this woman to pull her away from her kids, what kind of planet is there where that's okay?
But it happens in darkness, right?
It doesn't...
We don't see that, right?
Now there's all this awareness being brought to George Floyd and the rest of this stuff, which is really important.
And I'm so glad that it's coming to light and people are starting to, you know, really rise up as one, right?
As one group, as humans, not as black people or white people or any other kind of people, but together.
But this stuff happens under...
Under the shade of darkness where we don't see it.
We don't see what happens in the jails and prisons.
But what happens there in Harris County, where Alec won this suit recently, and now this, did a wonderful piece on this.
But about 20 people a year die in the Harris County Jail awaiting trial, right?
Oh, and you've got to watch the way it happens, Joe.
You'll watch, and it's all video.
It's all recorded.
So, in fact, we were watching it before we came in, where a judge will say, here are your charges.
You're going to answer me yes or no.
Do you want a court-appointed lawyer?
Yeah.
Again, you're going to answer me yes or no.
I just said, yeah.
No, I want a yes or a no.
Yes.
Well, when I asked you yes or no, what didn't you understand about that?
Well, I said, yeah.
Now your bail's doubled, $2,000.
You know, they fuck with people.
These white judges are fucking with people of color like they don't matter.
And, you know, it's interesting because you're probably sitting here thinking...
It's so overwhelming.
It is.
It's overwhelming.
What the fuck can be done about it?
What can we do about it?
But we have no choice but to fight back and mobilize and whether that means Putting pressure on local politicians or, you know, dare I say, run for office yourself.
We need people that care.
We need people that will speak truth to power by standing up for the people that are being oppressed in this country, as cliche as that sounds.
You know, you're sitting here horrified by a few stories.
You know, each one is more heartbreaking than the next.
And when you actually see how it works in action and you live it with these people, You know, it changes you.
I mean, I've never heard it laid out as well as you guys were laying it out, and I think most people listening to this probably are gonna agree.
They knew, but they didn't know, you know, and it leaves you with this overwhelming feeling of Of helplessness.
Like, besides running for office, what can be done?
I mean, we obviously need to change some laws.
We obviously need to, first of all, the conviction and arrest of people for non-violent drug offenses is fucking insane.
It's insane, and it's a giant part of the entire problem.
The fact that you can arrest people for traffic tickets and leave them in a cage, separate them from their children, that's fucking insane.
All these things are immoral.
The fact that we're supposed to be the shining beacon of democracy and civilization in this country, it's a joke when you look at our criminal justice system as you guys have laid it out.
I don't want you to feel helpless, though, and I don't want your listeners to feel helpless, and here's why.
The way that I, when I start to feel that way and I do sometimes, I start thinking of the strength that you have to have To survive an ordeal like John Restivo or Clemente Aguirre or Dewey Bezella or the countless other people that we have talked about,
it is beyond belief to be accused of something you didn't do, but to be able to survive in conditions that are popularized by movies, but the worst thing that could happen to you in jail often happens to these people.
And to have the resolve and not be helpless, at some point you overcome that helplessness, then I think it's in all of us to do something.
And that path is different for different people.
Not everybody is going to go out and be a civil rights lawyer or a criminal justice reform advocate, but there is something that all of us can do.
Politicians don't like to be embarrassed.
So whether that is writing an op-ed Writing to your local politician, calling the newspapers, like on the first episode of Wrongful Conviction Junk Science, I say, look, many of you are thinking, what can you do?
One thing you can do is, for instance, just dealing with forensic science.
Is write letters to your local criminal court judges.
Find out who they are.
You can look online and send them articles about the junk science of bite mark evidence.
Part of it is also our laziness in local elections as voters.
In many states, state court judges are elected, so a lot of them are not qualified.
And, you know, what is the answer to that?
That's a bigger problem.
But I think part of it is fear of bucking the system.
But one thing we do know, people act differently if they know that they're going to be embarrassed or exposed.
The reason why the judge in Clemente's case that I told you about, that was the judge that wouldn't recuse herself in the Trayvon Martin case even though her husband had represented George Zimmerman prior, she had to get outed and the press had to write about it and she got publicly embarrassed into being recused.
In my case with Clemente, the same thing.
The paper started covering it and picking it up and she finally had to give in.
So it might be an uphill and a steep uphill climb, but we can either take it, right?
We could either lay down and take it or get up and fight.
And there's something that all of us can do.
And I can tell you, Joe, I have seen, and when I say that it transformed me as a human being, I watched the pride of my 10-year-old daughter, my 8-year-old son, my 4-year-old doesn't get it yet, and saying, my dad stands up for people.
You know, my dad helped save his life.
And to watch them, you know, these people become parts of our family.
I'm telling you, man, you vibrate, you know, just to know that you physically saved a life.
There is no more gratifying thing in the world, no sporting event, no cheap thrill at a club out with your friends drinking or whatever it is that gets your rocks off.
I can tell you that if you have warm blood in your body, The reason why wrongful convictions and exonerations are so popular as a genre on podcasts or in movies is because it is that exhilarating to be able...
I think that it taps into the best part of who we are as human beings, really.
Because I think that we are fundamentally good in many ways.
Even though we love to...
We love to...
We sort of celebrate people's downfall.
That's also intrinsic in human beings for some odd reason.
And we celebrate disasters, but we also intrinsically, it's in all of us, to celebrate the triumph of the human soul.
It really is.
And I feel like the reason it evokes that in us is because that is in us.
And, you know, you will never find more gratification in being able to look in someone's eyes And say, I helped save his or her life.
And it forms a bond that is not comparable to money or, you know, any kind of material gain.
It is the human experience on the most fundamental level and the best part of the human experience.
So, you know, your listeners who are thinking, well, what can I do?
We could never list all of the ways, but I think we've given some ideas and we would strongly encourage.
I mean, you never know what one letter will do.
Clemente Aguirre wrote 74 letters when he was on death row to wild fucking people.
Because voting, you know, in local races, especially local DA's races, local judges' races, so few people vote that your vote literally could be the deciding factor, and it will have a ripple effect.
If they know that you're going to vote for judges and for prosecutors who do the right thing, who want actual justice and not just to win at all costs, like you said before, Joe, then that is going to make a huge difference.
You know, Chesa Boudin just won in San Francisco by a very tiny margin, less than 1%.
He has decarcerated San Francisco by over 50% in less than six months with no...
No spike in crime, no nothing, right?
And so the fact is none of those people needed to be in the first place.
He's refusing to prosecute these low-level nudnik crimes that don't need to be prosecuted, people that need help, who need us as a society to give them a lift up, not to brutalize them and put them through this churn, this miserable system.
Go to FAMM.org, Families Against Mandatory Mandatory, FAMM.org.
Go to First72 Plus if you want to donate to that.
Go to drugpolicyalliance.org.
It's an organization I've been on the board of forever that's leading what I call the war against the drug war and is doing such amazing work to help to take away not only the legal penalties but also the stigma associated with drugs.
And don't forget, even in the presidential race, right, Over 20% of federal judges now have been appointed by Trump.
And most of those judges, the overwhelming majority of those judges, are exactly the ones that we are sitting here talking about.
They're the ones we don't want on the bench because they could victimize so many more people.
Many of them have been judged unanimously unqualified by the American Bar Association.
And they're appointing, these Republicans are appointing these judges to lifetime tenures.
In places where they're going to see hundreds or thousands of cases.
So if you don't think your vote matters in the presidential election, if all you care about, if none of that other stuff interests you, it should interest you.
And for the sake of yourself, your friends, your loved ones, your children, those judges are going to do a tremendous amount of damage.
It must have been like 2000. And you said, two things were supposed to happen by now.
Pot was supposed to be legal and we were all supposed to have jetpacks.
I remember that bit really well.
So, my hope is that in ten years, or five years, or seven years, that we come back and you say, well, another thing was supposed to happen by now, and it's either happened or beginning to happen.
We were supposed to decriminalize, you know, low-level drug offenses, or we were supposed to change this bullshit about prosecutors and cops having immunity, right?
We're starting to see that with cops.
I can guarantee you that if prosecutors knew that there were repercussions, right, that there were repercussions to hiding evidence, okay, and not turning it over to the defense.
It happened in one of Kamala Harris's cases.
Wasn't it one of her cases where the crime lab – or that wasn't her case – where the crime lab had to send the DNA – I don't know if it was in California – where the crime lab – You're talking about Anthony Apanovich and I'm glad you brought this up.
You can tell him the story in a second, but the crime lab, not the prosecutors, a crime lab technician says, you know what, this is wrong.
This DNA doesn't match the defendant and I'm sending it to the defense counsel.
And what happens is that he gets put back – first he gets out because they realize they have the wrong guy, but he gets put back on death row because he got – he obtained the evidence illegally because it wasn't – so hold on.
You can tell the story in a second, but my hope is that – We start to beat back against the system so that we can come back on here, wherever you are, whether it's on a podcast, or it'll be your next bit, or maybe you'll have a talk show at that point and say, you know what?
So, Anthony Aponovich, this story is just, even by my standards, absolutely fucking mind-blowing, right?
Anthony Aponovich was wrongfully convicted in Ohio and sentenced to death.
He's on death row in Ohio, I think it was for 35 years, when what happened happened, right?
The state finally tested the DNA that they said didn't exist.
So the test came back and showed that he did not commit this crime.
So they withheld that from the defense.
So there he is on death row.
The state knows he's innocent.
They may have known all along.
I don't know.
But somebody, I think it was a crime lab technician, whoever it was, some whistleblower or whatever you want to call it, sent that evidence to the defense.
It's not the first time we've heard that kind of story.
He gets out.
He's out for 17 months.
He's a grandfather.
He's a...
I mean, the guy's terrific.
If you talk to him, you'd fall in love with him.
You'd want to have him on the damn show.
And...
He's sitting on the lawn with his grandchildren one day and a SWAT team shows up and arrests him again.
The state appealed his reversal saying that Only he, technically, only he was allowed to request his DNA. It's something in Ohio law, right?
The person who's appealing their conviction has to request the DNA themselves.
So they said that since they requested the DNA, he couldn't use it in his appeal, which technically was correct.
And so they're saying, you should have requested the DNA that we told you doesn't exist.
And since you didn't, we're taking it to the higher court.
And the higher court was left with no choice.
I mean, I guess they had no choice.
They followed the letter of the law and sent him right back to death row, which is where he is right now as we're sitting here.
Anthony Aponovich.
Un-fucking-believable.
Yeah.
I mean, and that's our system at its worst.
I mean, Josh and I are both involved in the case of a guy named Richard Midkiff down in Florida.
On the Apanovich case, I'll have to get you that information, or maybe Jamie can find it, but it's Anthony Apanovich, A-P-A-N-O-V-I-T-C-H, and I know it's Ohio, but I don't remember the jurisdiction.
Has confirmed through conclusive scientific evidence a death row inmate Anthony Aponovich brutally raped and murdered Marianne Flynn in 1984. That's a 2006 article.
Common Pleas Court judge on Tuesday rejected and imprisoned Cleveland Man's challenge to his 1984 conviction.
1984, Jesus fucking Christ.
And death sentence in the raping and killing of a nurse.
Judge Robert McClelland sent Anthony Aponovich back to death row after Ohio Supreme Court last year reversed his 2015 decision granting Aponovich a new trial based on new DNA tests.
McClelland, in a five-page opinion, expressed dismay that Aponovich was sentenced to death based solely on circumstantial evidence presented during a trial that took place just 55 days after the crime and noted that the record of the case against Aponovich was troubling.
so what the fuck It's difficult to be at the end of the line, McClellan wrote.
He said, Legal precedent and prior court rulings leave this court with no option than to deny the motion for new trial on the basis that the defendant is unable to show a strong possibility that a new trial would end in a different result.
Prosecutor Michael O'Malley said in a statement through a spokesperson that Aponovich belongs on death row.
The gamesmanship has gone on for too long, O'Malley said.
Putting him back on death row ends the agony of years of litigation that has tortured the victim's family.
Aponovich's appellate attorney, Mark Devon, did not immediately return a request for comment Wednesday.
Yeah, I mean, look, there's all sorts of roadblocks that courts throw up where, you know, you have to bring the new evidence within a certain time frame.
And there's just these paralyzing, you know, as hopeless— I was out!
Listen, because of this conversation we've had, millions and millions and millions of people are going to be aware of this that weren't aware of it before.
Another person we should mention, by the way, whose case is still going on and people can make a difference is James Daly.
James Daly has been on death row in Florida for 33 years for a murder he didn't commit.
His co-defendant, the real murder, has confessed.
He confessed to me.
He confessed to me that he did it.
He told me why he implicated my client, James Daly.
And we could really use people.
I mean here's a situation where the governor of Florida, Ron DeSantis, has the ability to call a clemency hearing and grant James Daly clemency at least to hear his case.
And they have basically communicated to me, the governor's office, that if he doesn't show contrition, That it's not going to go well for him.
So think about the Catch-22 they put me in as his lawyer and him in for a crime he didn't commit to which someone else has confessed to time and time again.
2020 is airing a whole special about the case and my representation of him in October.
We could use people writing letters to the governor, Ron DeSantis of Florida, to grant James Daly a clemency hearing.
Think about what I'm asking for right now.
I'm asking for a governor to exercise his power to just listen.
It's that difficult to just get a hearing, just to listen.
This other man has...
He's confessed to inmates.
He's confessed to his friends.
He's confessed to me.
And then what he does is he goes into court and changes his mind and says, I no longer want to talk about this because every time he confesses, his family reads about it in the paper.
They then call him.
I have recorded prison calls where they're saying, what did you do?
Why did you confess?
We've been telling people you didn't do this.
Now we can never say that anymore.
Your son will never come visit you again.
And then he changes it back.
All of the evidence, the physical evidence, leads to him.
He's confessed, yet my client sits on death row for 33 years for a crime he didn't commit.
The governor has the power to listen to his case.
Ron DeSantis has the ability and the power to make it less of a joke than it's been, but they don't even hear cases of death row prisoners.
And the last word on Michelle Murphy, and then we'll wrap up, because I know that you probably have some other parts of your life you want to attend to.
On Michelle Murphy's case, and this touches on a number of things we talked about.
Michelle Murphy, even at her original hearing, the judge called all the lawyers into his chambers and said, There was a kid in the courtroom who was the witness against her.
It was a next-door neighbor kid.
And the judge says, how come the kid doesn't have a lawyer?
And the prosecutor says, because he's not a suspect, Your Honor, he's a witness.
And the judge says, are you the only person here that doesn't know he's the real killer?
And, of course, that was the case.
But that kid killed himself before the trial, and he was never able to be put on the stand.
But Michelle, more importantly, served 20 years of a life sentence.
She was exonerated, fully exonerated with DNA. And here it is, five, six years later, and she hasn't gotten a dollar from the state.
And they've fought every tooth and nail any compensation for her.
And if not for people like, you know, the first 72-plus and other, you know, other good-hearted people, she would be on the streets.
I mean, it's just, it should shock everyone's conscience.