George Knapp and Jeremy Corbell revisit Bob Lazar’s 1989 claims of reverse-engineering alien tech at Area 51, citing verified details like element 115 (discovered in 2013) and his top-secret clearance. They dismiss government disinformation theories but acknowledge ongoing harassment by fringe conspiracy theorists. Recent Pentagon acknowledgments—including the Northern Tier cases (1974–75) and Russian military reports (1978–88)—and leaked DIRDs on metamaterials confirm UFOs as credible national security threats. Skinwalker Ranch’s unexplained phenomena, like surgical cattle mutilations and self-rotating craft, suggest advanced but unknown forces, possibly tied to propulsion tech beyond current capabilities. Despite skepticism from debunkers like Mick West, military pilots’ reactions and physics-defying behavior in videos (e.g., Go Fast) underscore the need for serious investigation. [Automatically generated summary]
George, I think that you're probably one of the most important figures when it comes to journalism and UFOs.
And when you broke the Bob Lazar story, was that 89?
When was that?
1989. 1989. 1989, I remember reading about it, I remember hearing about it, I remember watching clips on television and watching countless Bob Lazar interviews.
It all came out of you.
I mean, did you think at that time, what was your thoughts about UFOs before you had met Bob Lazar and how much did it change while you got to know him and hear his story?
You know, it's probably the same level of curiosity as most people.
You go about your life, you pay your bills, you go to work, you love your family, and it's always out there somewhere.
Hey, I wonder what the deal is on that.
But had not really dwelled on it until it was a day in 1987. Into the studio comes a guy named John Lear.
And I had heard sort of a little bit about him.
His family was famous.
His dad developed the Learjet, the 8-track tape.
John had run for the State Senate, and he had a certain amount of credibility with our news organization, KLAS-TV, because he had helped us break a really big story.
And the story was the stealth fighter, the F-117.
He had told my boss, Ned Day, managing editor, about this amazing plane that was invisible to radar flying up in Tonopah in Area 51. We had an interest in Area 51, not UFO related, but Ned broke that story.
It went national.
So John Lear comes into the station one day with a stack of what turned out to be UFO documents.
He plops them on Ned's desk and says, Ned, this is going to be the next biggest story, the biggest story in history.
It's a UFO cover-up.
Aliens are here.
Technology's been recovered.
Ned takes a look at it and says, I'm not doing this story.
If it was true, I'd already know about it.
This is crazy.
I'm eavesdropping, as I tend to do.
I'm a curious person.
So as he's going out, I said, Lear, let me take a look at this material.
And I looked at it and I thought, well, this is kind of interesting.
At the time, I was producing and hosting this little public affairs show, 30-minute interview show.
It would air a Sunday morning at 6 o'clock.
Nobody watches it.
It would be interviewing a city councilman, a county commissioner.
What the heck?
I'll put Lear on there.
And I let him go.
And he told me this big scenario about secret treaties with aliens and recovered technology and a giant cover-up.
Some of the information sounded outrageous.
Some of it seemed like it would be worth checking out.
Suddenly, the phone starts ringing off the hook.
I'm getting calls about people.
Who was that guy?
What was the deal on that UFO stuff?
Is it real?
I had him on again.
Six months later, the response was bigger.
I had him on a third time with a guy named Bill Cooper.
I regret that.
And he told him an even more elaborate conspiracy.
He had this scenario where he had seen these documents when he was in the Navy, and he's going to tell the world about it, then he's going to go away.
Well, every time he told the story, the documents got bigger and bigger, and anybody who criticized Bill Cooper became part of the secret government, including me.
So we do this third show with Lear, and he hints that he knows a guy who might be going to work out at Area 51 and knows something about alien technology.
That guy turns out to be Bob Lazar, but Lear didn't give me the name at that time.
I am anchoring the 5 o'clock news on KLAS, and we have a nightly or evening interview segment, five-minute segment, live interview.
Our guest doesn't show up, and we're scrambling to find somebody to fill that hole, and I thought about Lear.
So I called him up, not knowing what had been going on in Lazar's life or Lear's life, and I said, hey, is that UFO guy you told me about, is he around?
Just turned out that Bob had been through the ringer and a lot of stuff going on in his life.
He felt threatened and he said yes.
We had to black out his face.
We do this interview and he spills the basics of the story.
I worked out there at a place called S4. I saw nine flying saucers in an underground base.
This is technology that came from somewhere else.
I'm in fear for my life.
Holy cow, the phones start ringing off the hook.
My news director comes rushing in, the station manager.
Is that for real?
What's the deal on that?
And we realized we had touched the pulse of the public in a way that I didn't really understand.
We arranged to go meet Bob Lazar, my news director Bob Stolow and I, that following weekend and put him through a paces where we would ask him questions about his background and how he got the job.
We spent a couple hours with him and we walked out of that meeting thinking, holy shit, what if this is true?
You know, this is really risky for us as journalists.
It's risky for our personal reputations.
If it blows up in our faces and we do this story, and it would really damage the reputation of our news organization, which is, KLAS is a jewel.
It's always been a leader in Las Vegas, one of the best TV news operations in the country.
We're putting a lot on the line.
Well, look, we decide, let's take our time.
Let's look into this guy's story.
And then in order to understand Lazar, we'd have to look at The bigger picture of UFOs.
So I started a cram course on ufology and I read everything and I spent eight months like cramming for a final exam that never happened.
I read everything.
I interviewed people.
That same year MUFON had its international symposium in Las Vegas and all the world's UFO people came right to me.
I got to interview them, traveled around, went to Los Alamos.
Lazar took us into the lab.
We took cameras in there.
He walked us around.
Waving to people.
We didn't even have to stop for security.
Took us into the lab like it was a rabbit going through its own burrow.
He knew his way around.
We were allowed to take a camera in there.
We put those stories together, put them on the air in November, and man, it just went through the roof.
Every night of this nine-part series, the audience got bigger, phones ringing off the hook, people calling, giving us information.
Suddenly, it's on something called Paranet, which was sort of a precursor to the internet.
And it was huge.
And it changed my life, for sure.
I had no idea that there were so many people out there interested in the topic.
And I was hooked.
And I really got hooked on Lazar, not only because his story, personally, you know, I was interested in him.
We became friends.
I saw what happened to him after that live interview and in the seven and a half months before we went and I revealed his identity.
People were really messing with him.
I mean, you cannot convey what it was like, how weird it was then, breaking into his house, leaving the windows open, messing with things in his home, breaking into his car, leaving the doors and windows down, just messing with his head.
I am actively seeking information from the public.
If you ever worked at Area 51 or S4, you know anything about this, you're at Nellis Air Force Base, reach out to me.
So I started getting calls, and six people right in a row who had talked to me on the phone and offered to give me information were visited right after the call.
One of them was a guy who did tax returns for people at Nellis Air Force Base, and he got to know these guys really well and got information about crashes.
There was a guy who was a golf pro at Nellis who had gone on road trips with officers and told him about this weird stuff out at Area 51 that seemed to be from somewhere else.
He gets visited and told to shut up.
There was a lady who worked in the court system.
A cop told me about her, and I talked to her on the phone, and she had worked at the court system, but before she had worked for a company called Holmes and Narber, which is a defense contractor.
And she said she sat in as a stenographer in these meetings and heard these conversations between the government contractors and Air Force officials about crashed saucers.
And they would, after the meeting, they'd take the tape out of the typewriter and destroy it and take all the notes, and she agreed to tell me the story.
It was just a tiny piece of the story.
The next day, she's visited by these two guys in suits.
They tell her, look, you are still subject to your security clearance.
I hope you know that.
And then they said, we know you travel to L.A. to see your daughter and we know she comes here.
It's a big desert out there.
It'd be terrible if something happened to either one of you.
This lady is scared shitless.
She didn't make that stuff up.
So six people who had offered to give me information on the phone, one right after another, get visited.
And it made me mad.
It also made me mad that dealing with, you know, trying to fill in pieces of Bob Lazar's life.
I know there's some gaping holes.
I know it better than anybody.
I've had to deal with it for 31 years.
But I always thought if he worked at Los Alamos in classified projects in a scientific or technical capacity, then it would make sense that he could get hired into a program like S4 as somebody who thinks outside the box.
Despite personal shortcomings or whatever, they might bring somebody like him in to help them crack a problem that they hadn't been able to resolve themselves.
So I focused on Los Alamos.
I knew he had been there.
I talked to people who remembered him from being there, but the lab kept telling me no, no record of him.
He's never here.
And then I showed him, well, look, I've got the Los Alamos newspaper.
It's a small town paper.
There it is on the front page, a front page story.
Bob Lazar, physicist, Mason facility, Los Alamos lab.
It's a story about his jet car.
No, still have no records of him.
And then I found his name in the phone book from the era when he was there.
He's in the lab phone book.
He had been hired by a company called Kirkmeyer, which is a company that's a headhunter that fills positions at Los Alamos and places like that.
So, great.
I'll reach out to Kirkmeyer.
They said, yeah, we hired him.
Yeah, we've got records.
Can I get it?
Can I get his employment records that would show where he went to school, whatever information you guys had?
Yes.
A couple weeks go by, nothing.
A couple more weeks go by, I call him again.
I start writing him.
I've got a stack of letters that thick.
It went on for two and a half years.
And finally, by the end of it, they said he was never here.
We don't have any records.
That pissed me off.
It made me mad, and I think that that is really what got me hooked in the story, is that I was being jacked around by government and national facilities like that.
And the way he explained it to me, I don't think I'm at liberty to say what the project was, because the project, the way he was describing it, Is essentially internationally illegal, like what they were working on.
And that's one of the reasons why he was saying, he explained what the project was.
It sounded very feasible, also very evil.
And then it was basically a weapon.
And then he said that this is the reason why there was no actual record of him studying at MIT. It wasn't important that he got a degree.
It was important that he understand The technical specifications of what they were attempting to accomplish.
But here's – I had always told him and I've – you know, Bob, you're my friend.
I want to have a conversation with you about these claimed degrees because I didn't believe that he'd ever sat down – you know, in those days you go to a college like MIT or Caltech and get a degree.
You've got to take classes in something other than science.
Yeah.
I could not imagine Bob Lazar taking an English lit class to save his life.
But he is a brilliant guy.
I'll give you an example.
In April, COVID thing is raging.
My wife and I are staying at home.
We're getting packages delivered for food and things of that sort.
I'm a little worried.
They didn't know about contact, whether you can get it off of cardboard boxes or whatever.
And I mentioned to Bob in a phone conversation, I'm thinking about buying one of these UV screener systems.
He goes, wait a second.
Don't buy one.
I think I've got the parts that I can make you want in my garage.
When you listen to him talk, there's no bullshitting going on.
When he talks about undeniable, concrete things when it comes to science, when it comes to elements, when it comes to propulsion systems, he clearly knows what he's talking about.
And the really confusing thing For people that are detractors is he really hasn't changed his story in 31 years.
It really is the same story.
And that's really hard to do.
Even if you tell a true story, 31 years later, you get it screwed up a little bit.
It's hard.
Like, when you're calling on 30...
Like, if I had to remember things from 31 years ago, that's like...
I'm one year in a stand-up comedy, 31 years ago.
I don't remember it.
I barely...
I'm going to tell you, like, oh, yeah, it was a Sunday night, and then my friend Greg would go, actually, it was Wednesday.
I go, fuck, yeah, you're right, it was Wednesday.
Who was the host?
You know, we'll have...
I don't know.
It's a blurry slideshow, but Bob has been remarkably consistent.
The only thing that he's vacillated on, we varied a little bit, is whether or not he saw an alien or whether or not he saw someone who was looking at something that was the size of an alien, like a small figure, like whether or not they were trying to determine how large...
A creature would have to be to use one of those small crafts.
Because the crafts were very small in terms of like for a human being.
It was more like something that was built for a child.
And he walked by a window and looked inside.
And in some of the earlier discussions of it, he believed that he might have seen an alien.
But he was really clear that he only saw it for literally a second as he was walking by, saw something.
And again, you know how the brain works in memory.
You could...
You can really plant false memories.
Everybody wants to pretend their memory is so good.
Remember, the first interview we did, I think it was June of 89. So it was a little after we did that live interview, but months before we went with his ID. And that was really, we recorded it in case something happened to him.
He was afraid he was going to be killed.
There were a lot of really weird things going on.
And I was worried about it too.
I wanted to get it on the record in case suddenly he disappeared.
So we recorded this long interview and always he downplays stuff like that.
That's an example.
I saw something that was that size.
I don't believe it was an alien.
It was just a glimpse of me where they're messing with my head.
He also admits that they did mess with his head.
That he had to...
They underwent some kind of hypnosis that they made him drink this weird green liquid?
Various scenarios have popped up over the years about why he came forward.
There are people who believe he just made it up.
He was trying to make money or he wanted attention.
There are people who believe it's government disinformation to distract attention from something else that was going on out there.
Or they believe both of them, which, you know, they would seem to be mutually exclusive.
Bob would admit that he had no business being there, that there were much more qualified people to work on those kind of things.
Maybe he was a guy who thinks outside the box, who might give a new slant on trying to figure this stuff out that they had had for decades and had not been able to duplicate.
You know, he will admit to you that maybe he was picked for the job.
They figured, all right, in case he blabs, we can discredit this guy like that.
When we're done with him, there's things in his background.
He likes to blow things up.
He likes explosives.
He had a Pirate flag on his house at the time that I first met him.
He liked machine guns.
He had an illegal firework show that would go out in the desert every year that became a world-class event.
He got into some legal trouble after he'd worked out there.
So there's a lot of things in his life they could use to discredit him.
The people who still maintain that Bob was a disinformation plot, it was meant to distract attention out from something else going on out there, whoever came up with that idea should be fired, because as a result of Bob coming forward with that story, Area 51 is now known all over the world.
I'm sorry, but the Bob Lazar version of the tale is the one that prevailed.
It's known everywhere.
It's been in movies and books and TV shows.
It's launched a thousand different products like the hat.
Las Vegas 51s.
Our AAA baseball team became the 51s because of the Lazar story.
The E.T. Highway is created and christened by our governor.
You know, that story, that version that he told is now known all over the world, whether detractors like it or not.
And if somebody was trying to distract attention away from something going on at Area 51, it failed miserably because tens of thousands of people made the trek out there.
Even today, 31 years later, every single day, there's somebody with binoculars or a scope or something looking for whatever is flying around out there.
Every major news organization in the world, after giving me nothing but grief, has beaten a path to Area 51's door.
All of them, they've all done it.
And Bob's story about reverse engineering craft from somewhere else is now part of a much larger and current series of events that we can get into.
Yeah, and that story that he told when he was on the podcast here got phenomenal response.
There were so many people that I talked to that were my friends who were skeptical about that shit.
They call me up and go, hey man, I'm starting to believe this is real.
And I'm like, you should watch the documentary and then you should watch the Commander Fravor interview where he talks about the Tic Tac UFO that they encountered off of San Diego.
Because you're talking about a rock solid military man with no shenanigans in his background who is telling a story about a craft that they cannot explain, doing things that defy physics and our understanding of propulsion systems.
And quite a few people from that interview have completely changed their tune.
Friends of mine who thought it was total horseshit have done a 180 and they're like, fuck, is this real?
And then the New York Times story came out, of course, and the New York Times is showing all these images of these UFOs and these things that they can't explain at all.
Exhibit very similar propulsion methods or at least speeds that they can't explain.
They move the same way.
And there's legitimate people, legitimate scientists now that are starting to take this into consideration and say, okay, if this is from Earth, Then there's got to be some sort of a program that has technology that's far beyond anything we knew was possible.
How did they do that?
Is it because there's some super geniuses that the government gets a hold of right when they're in college and they immediately ship them off to the desert and have them create this stuff?
Are we, in fact, encountering something like us from the future or something from another place that has had a completely different path to technology?
But it's not outside the realm of possibility.
We're here.
We're here sending videos through our phones to each other.
We're talking to people.
It's being relayed through the sky.
We're watching films that are instantly downloaded wirelessly.
From these servers, I mean, just the technology that we have right now is completely alien to anybody who was around in Roswell in 1947. From 1947 to 2020, in terms of the universe, is not even a half of a blink of an eye.
And then, boom, things have changed so radically.
It's not crazy to think that something from somewhere is far ahead of us.
The material science even, just the actual physical material science, the materials it's made out of, and that's what's been in the news now, metamaterials, that there are materials from craft that we have.
George will talk about that, but Lazar is parallel with what we're seeing today.
Yeah, and what's also really bonkers is in 89 he was talking about element 115. It wasn't even scientifically proven to exist until 2013. So in 1989 he was talking about, this is science fiction, he's making things up.
In 2013 they actually were able to create, for a brief moment, an element 115, which is this insanely dense element that they believe is perhaps the propulsion system for this craft.
And they videotaped it, and all the witnesses who were there have verified it, and it was not over Area 51. It was over Papoose, which officially has no facility.
Nothing has ever been there.
Bob knew a lot of stuff that he couldn't have known otherwise, and it's been proven over the years.
He didn't make up a bunch of crazy shit like the William Cooper book, right?
There's a lot of people that have speculated what that was all about, whether William Cooper was just schizophrenic, whether he was writing some truths mixed in with crazy things so you could discount the truth.
I mean, that is a real strategy that the government will employ if they know that information is going to get leaked out.
And they want to somehow or another discredit it, they'll connect it to really loony stuff that is absolutely not true.
And they'll say, where'd you get that information?
Oh, I got it from Behold the Pale Horse.
Oh, Christ.
Did you read all the stuff in that book?
Right?
I mean, so there's that thought.
But there's none of that with Bob.
With Bob, everything that he talked, it's so eerie.
He's like, Jeremy, that doesn't show the cool part of the test.
It's just the cool-down period.
And I'm like, well, it shows that you filmed this with your friends back then and that at least you believed you had 115. So what I have in the film, it's not definitive proof, but it shows that they weren't lying, that they filmed it.
years ago about disinformation you know do you guys have to see disinformation out there to discredit the ufo story said we don't have to plant anything the ufo people do it all to themselves i mean they're nuts yeah i had a i got a phd in ufology in essence by working on that story and then subsequent stories because the public had reacted in such a way all right i'm going to stick with it but what you run into in the topic it's no wonder that you've gone back and
So have I. Questioning whether, is this a good use of my time?
Because there are so many of them that are absolutely nuts.
Like Jamie and I were watching Ancient Aliens the other day and we were laughing.
We're like, what are the qualifications of being a UFO researcher?
You don't have to have a degree.
You just have to be a bullshit artist who's willing to get on the History Channel and talk about UFOs.
Literally, you just have to know a few facts that you could spit out.
And some guys were clearly reading off of a script.
I'm like, this has got to be the lowest bar in terms of like, what does your son do?
Oh, he's a scientific expert on the History Channel.
Amazing.
But what is he really?
He's a fucking UFO researcher.
Well, what does that mean?
It just means he's a guy who's into UFOs who can string words together in an appropriate sentence that seems like he knows what he's talking about, and so they put him on TV. And when I did that sci-fi show, Joe Rogan Questions Everything, I lost all my faith in UFO research.
Yeah, it is really weird to see the government looking into it openly.
That's what's strange.
The fact that the younger version of me would be bracing myself for contact.
It's coming.
They're talking to us about it now.
Because my thought was always like...
They probably – if UFOs are real and aliens exist, they have it in contact, they probably don't think we can handle it.
So they probably want to keep us as calm as possible and just dismiss everything and go back to work, go back to sleep, do what you got to do, don't pay attention to this.
This is all nonsense and that's what most people do.
But when the government is actually openly discussing the fact that they not only have been studying this but they have some video footage of some things they cannot explain.
And they're saying this just out in public, in legitimate, recognized publications, newspapers, television shows.
Now, it's, you know, 33 years that I've been chasing this, and I become...
And I don't want to talk about me, but I mean, I've become the UFO reporter, whether I like it or not.
I'm not the UFO reporter.
I'm a reporter who's interested in that.
The UFO stories I've done in all that time, it's been a lot.
But as a percentage of all the reports that I do, it's small.
I'm a news guy.
I chase bad guys mostly for the I-team.
But those UFO stories have gone all over the world.
The UFO field is so polluted with liars and exaggerators and fast-buck artists and people who appropriate this story for their own political agendas, to make money, to get attention.
It takes 90% of your energy just to wade through the crap and get to the hard facts, and there aren't that many of them, and to figure out who's telling the truth, who's reliable, who's honestly trying to pursue the story and get to the truth.
It's a task that is difficult, and I don't blame other journalists for not giving it a fair shake, because it's not something you could do in a week.
I remember saying to myself, this is how cocky I was in the beginning, is, you know, I'm reading these UFO books, and boy, this field is a mess.
But there is some good information in here.
Give me six months, and I'll have this figured out.
Well, there's 33 years later.
I know less than I did now.
I know I have a lot more facts in my head, but all the big questions, we don't have answers to them.
I don't think anybody does.
Who they are, where they're from, why they're here, what they're interested in us, what the long-term agenda is.
We don't know that, and I don't think anybody does.
As a career journalist, what did it feel like to you when you started seeing the government actually coming out and saying, we are trying to investigate these reports, we know that there is something to them, these are real claims by You know, real pilots, real scientists have reviewed these things and they find them troubling.
The most immediate reaction is astonishment because of all the years I'm chasing this, everywhere you go, you run into brick walls when dealing with the government.
That's really what got my attention and where I wanted to focus because I can't go out and wait for UFOs to show up, although I've done that.
But I wanted to follow the paper trail.
The government has this whole big, long history of documents that they exchanged reports, memos, incident reports about UFOs before the Freedom of Information Act became the law of the land.
And they're very candid with each other.
They're not that way anymore.
They hide stuff.
But back in those days, they were candid that this is from somewhere else.
This is real.
It's not fictitious.
We need to look into this.
We've got to make sure it's not Russians or Chinese.
And we have to figure out who's got this technology because we don't.
It's not ours.
And then, of course, when Freedom of Information Act became the law of the land, all these agencies that had lied about it – nope, we don't have any UFO reports – have to cough up thousands and thousands of pages.
They have absolutely stonewalled this and lied to the public for a long time.
So to finally see them admit, yes, we're taking it seriously, which I have known all along.
Of course they have to study this.
Unknown craft float over our nuclear missile bases, disarm the missiles.
We have fighter jets go after them.
They leave them in the dust.
They can fly circles around our best technology.
They mess with nuclear power plants, nuclear weapons, nuclear facilities like Los Alamos.
It is a national security issue, and they have been paying attention to it.
They just haven't been telling us.
So for the New York Times to come out in December 2017 and say, yeah, there was a program, and yeah, they've been looking at UFOs.
Oh, by the way, it's all done now.
It's still a mixture of lies and some glimpses of truth, but I never thought I would see this in my lifetime.
I never thought I'd see this much progress.
The last two and a half years has been the most astonishing time in the history of this subject.
And I'll tell you, Joe, there is stuff bubbling right under the surface now that is going to rock our world, I think, in the next year or so.
they had obtained some of these documents after freedom of information act came forward and then the the most recent study bass osap that we could talk about they also really focused on the northern tier cases and they looked up some of those guys they found uh some of the nuclear missile officers and security personnel and interviewed him and they told the story all over again there's a guy named robert hastings ufos and nukes he's has been his specialty for the last 30 years he wrote a
Part of what has happened is it not only happened to us, the U.S., but in Russia.
So once I got UFO fever and became a UFO reporter, I traveled all over the world.
And one of the places I went twice was Russia.
After the fall of the Soviet Union, it occurred to me that maybe we might be able to learn more from the Russians about what our government knows about UFOs than our government will ever tell us.
And I met a Russian physicist who was here in the U.S. to lecture on disarmament issues at national labs.
He was getting ready to go back to Russia.
He had been the national security advisor to Boris Yeltsin.
He was a national security advisor to the Russian parliament.
He had taught Russian cosmonauts how to spot American nuclear submarines from space.
He was connected.
So I had a beer with him at the suggestion of a U.S. congressman.
And I said, hey, Nikolai, you ever hear any of your guys in Russia at high levels talk about UFOs?
Now, can't really think that that doesn't ring a bell.
We have another beer.
And he says, you know, I do have a guy at the KGB who told me that they had looked into it for a while.
And I thought, well, they had just – the KGB had just released its Oswald files.
I thought, maybe this is a golden opportunity to find out what they know.
Because they are a superpower.
They have nuclear weapons.
They would have seen the same things we've been seeing.
So I went to Russia.
We sent Nikolai back to Moscow, gave him a stipend, and his instructions were, find people who are in a position to know, high up in the military or the government, who have never talked about this before.
And it took about eight months for him to report back and get all these people lined up, and then I went to Russia and met him and interviewed him.
Thank you.
a previously unknown study, probably the biggest UFO study in the history of the world.
For 10 years, from 78 to 88, the Russian military empire, every military unit in Russia, in their whole military global, if they saw any ball of light, anomalous aircraft, UFO, anything weird like that, they had to report it to the KGB.
And all that information went to one desk at the Ministry of Defense.
Colonel Sokolov was that desk, and they had thousands of reports that had never been made public before.
He told me about 45 different incidents where Russian warplanes had chased UFOs, couldn't catch them.
Three of the instances, these UFOs shot them down.
Two of those pilots died, and after that he said, The order went out, look, if you see these things, don't mess with them.
He said their study was for a very practical reason.
These craft could do things that the Russians could not.
And they wanted to get an advantage over the Americans in terms of stealth technology.
So they wanted to do what people in reverse engineering programs are doing, figure out how the UFOs work so they could have an advantage over us.
I had to smuggle some of these documents back.
If I had been caught with this stuff – because some of it was classified – if I'd been caught, I'd still be in a gulag somewhere.
But I got it back.
I shared it with some people.
It eventually found its way into the U.S. government's hands.
And it tells us basically a lot of what we now know about our own government, that they have always taken this seriously.
And one of the incidents – I'm sorry I made the long way around on that story – was an ICBM base in the Ukraine.
Colonel Sokolov says that a giant UFO appeared over this base.
These are missiles that are trained to go to New York and Los Angeles.
They're very serious stuff there.
It's a very secure facility.
Giant UFO appears over this base.
It splits into pieces and then it melds back apart and it performs this dazzling display for a couple of hours.
The base is on high alert and all of a sudden the nuclear control facilities Lights up like a Christmas tree.
And whatever this thing was, it entered the launch control codes.
The missiles were enabled.
They start firing up.
They're ready to go.
And then poof, UFO goes away.
The whole thing shuts down.
It goes back to normal.
Colonel Sokolov sent his team, he and his team, sent there to investigate it.
They took the machines apart, could not figure out what it had done.
And he told me on camera, we think that they were sending us a message that these are your most powerful weapons, but we're not impressed.
Same kind of thing happened here.
We don't like to admit it, but there's a pretty strong paper trail that it really did happen.
Now, what is a bigger national security issue than that?
Or like the Tic Tac.
You've got a nuclear-powered carrier there and other warships around it, and you've got these strange radar sightings for a couple of weeks right off the coast of the U.S. This is an intruder.
And even though these aliens, whatever they are, are not firing beams and wiping out our cities, you have to consider it a threat.
That's the job of our Defense Department.
They don't know what it is, but they know it shouldn't be there, and it's not ours.
And I think that's what the program is going on right now.
It's a legitimate national security issue.
It deserves to be investigated in spite of the larger social implications that we're not alone.
The Tic-Tac craft that was spotted off San Diego, it performed something spectacular in terms of its ability to go from the surface of the water to 60,000 feet in how long?
Less than a second, but there's actually more to it.
There was a craft.
Remember, I was talking with Commander Fravor before this was public.
There was a craft under the water too.
The tic-tac would drop from 60,000 feet is what they're saying, 60 to 80, but that's the scan volume of the SPY-1 radar.
So everybody I've talked with said they were coming from above.
They were coming from outer space, dropping down within a second and stopping on a dime and then making the movements Commander Fravor saw, bop, bop, bop, bop, like inside of a Then he said to me in our first talk ever, I'll never forget this, because I'm talking to a fighter pilot and I got to talk fighter pilot.
And he says to me, It noticed me.
I go, what do you mean it noticed you?
And he says, as I was descending rapidly to engage it, it turned its nose and began to intelligently mirror my movements, came right up by me.
And he says, faster than you can see, like you can't even see a bullet leave a gun.
No, it just, bam, shot off.
He goes, we don't have anything like that.
I wish we did.
We don't.
Whatever propels that is not a reactionary propulsion system.
Like a lot of the wacky theories that he has are like, I wonder, you know, it's real weird like that a smart man can make such really bizarre conclusions.
Okay, so one that I recently attacked because it was so ridiculous is he was saying that the Go Fast video, which is this object that goes along in a straight line, one of the three videos that was released, he said it was probably a bird.
And it's essentially recording in thermal imagery.
This is not Instagram.
These things are weapons systems that are highly trained to be able to accurately represent spatial awareness and to be able to target enemy combatants.
This is not an iPhone, an Instagram.
These are weapons for us.
So out of the three videos, If we just look at this one, although I like the Tic Tac one with Commander Fravor and I like the gimbal one.
Those are awesome.
This one gives us very little information.
But the idea that this would be a bird, if you talk to anybody that uses these pods, you can't pinpoint on a bird.
You can't lock a weapon system on a frickin' bird.
And they got real excited when they locked it because they boxed a moving target, right?
So here's the deal though.
Out of anything I could say about this video because there's not a lot of information in there, what I can say is that object you're seeing is colder than the surface of the ocean.
Now I looked up the surface of the ocean temperature at that location at that time because we had the information.
It was like 65 degrees.
What propulsion system...
Okay, so a bird.
A bird is about 100 and let's say 5 degrees, like a seagull.
Seagulls can go maybe 15 miles an hour.
I don't know how fast they can go.
But they wouldn't be colder than the ocean.
They'd be hypothermic and dead.
It cannot be a bird because what we're seeing is a colder object than the surface of the water.
So I'll give you one interpretation about, you know, 240 miles an hour, some people say.
And then they can argue, well, the fastest bird in a nosedive could go that fast.
Back up.
We have an object that is colder than the surface of the ocean that immediately gets rid of the bird theory because a bird would be hypothermic and drop like a paperweight into the water.
It cannot fly at that.
So that's the piece of information I would attack that debunking with.
But this video, when you're watching that, if it is going 200 miles an hour, that's not outside of what's possible with spacecraft or aircraft or just planes.
The premise that the U.S. government would tell you, all right, look, we're going to release these videos reluctantly.
Lou Elizondo is the guy that got them released, and then the U.S. government formally released them a couple of months ago.
The idea that the U.S. government would release it, the Pentagon says, these are unidentified.
You know, if it was a bird or a jet engine, the pilots would not have the kind of reaction that they had that you can hear on the audio.
Our government does not tell members of Congress, the Pentagon doesn't go to the Senate Intelligence Committee, show them those videos and say, yeah, it's unidentified if it isn't.
And, you know, the reaction of the pilots, the fact that they were forced to release it to begin with, suggests it really is unidentified.
I know you guys had a pretty spirited conversation when he was here, but he created an organization.
Lou Elizondo, who ran that program, came forward and brought with him those videos.
I saw them two days after Lou Elizondo stepped on a stage with Tom and said, I was in charge of the program.
He and Chris Mellon have been sort of the engineers of getting that story into the New York Times.
That changed everything.
As I said, the last two and a half years, everything has turned on its head.
The New York Times covers the story.
The result is other media covered as well.
They've been ignoring it forever, and that allowed people to keep these secrets.
That pressure meant that people in Congress started asking questions.
Two days after the story came out, I interviewed Senator Harry Reid, who was the one who got the money to create that program that became AATIP. And he said his phone had been ringing off the hook from other members of Congress who are now suddenly interested.
I didn't know there was a program they're telling him.
How do we learn more about this?
It started a series of closed-door briefings on Capitol Hill that continue to this day.
The pilots, like Dave Fravor, were hauled before Congress, first in front of the staff of the Senate Intelligence, and then Senate Armed Services, and then the elected members, these senators who get briefed on it.
And they were impressed, and they wanted more pilots to come in.
So it's been going on for two and a half years.
And two weeks ago, no, excuse me, about a month ago now, The culmination of it, Senator Marco Rubio, who is now the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, drops this bill.
And it's the budget for the intelligence budget for next year.
And he includes a UFO provision in there.
We want, Congress wants to have a mechanism set up where we get regular briefings from the Pentagon on UFOs.
That's an astonishing change of events.
It's because of the media pressure and then congressional interest.
It made it more acceptable for everybody to pursue the subject matter.
It's kind of out of the shadows and the Pentagon has reacted in fits and starts.
So sometimes, as they said to the New York Times, that program ended.
It had nothing to do with UFOs.
At first they said it did, then they said it didn't.
They've admitted Lou Elizondo worked on the program, then they said he didn't.
They've said that the OSAP, which is the other program, the mother program that became AATEP, that that had nothing to do with UFOs, but it did.
So they continue to sort of lie and obfuscate and muddy the waters, but the fact is that there's too much momentum from media and Congress and the public to hide this anymore.
You should tell Joe about how the government program ASAP was created directly because George wrote this book about a little place called Skinwalker Ranch where the government was studying this property.
So we did that story in the series in 89. One of the first people to call me after that was a guy I'd never heard of before named Robert Bigelow, a billionaire.
He calls me up and says, I was really interested in that.
I've been interested in UFOs for a long time.
Can I help you?
Meaning, can he help fund me?
I said, I work for a TV station.
I don't need any help.
But he was not to be deterred.
He then reached out to Lazar.
They had a little – he started meeting with him and pumping him for information.
And that really amplified Bigelow's lifelong interest in it.
He created something called NIDS, the National Institute for Discovery Science, which he made a science advisory board of the best and the brightest in both the UFO field and the field of consciousness.
So they're looking at two questions.
Is there life elsewhere in the universe?
Is it here?
And do humans survive after death?
And he assembled this board, former CIA guys, two former astronauts, men who had walked on the moon, Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Dr. Hal Puthoff, physicists, psychologists, really a brilliant little think tank to take on these two topics.
I was allowed to be a fly on the wall for some of it, not all of it, but some.
And I told Harry Reid about it in 1996, and he said, can I go?
And so he showed up and sat in on the meetings, and he was kind of hooked.
Harry Reid was the first person I told about Bob Lazar outside of our newsroom.
Before we aired the stories, I'd known him since he first ran for Congress in 1982. Then he becomes Senate Majority Leader.
So he'd always had an interest in it, but he didn't want it to be known publicly.
That does not help your reelection chances.
So in 2005, We write the book about Skinwalker Ranch.
NIDS, that team, bought the ranch.
They were on the property for seven or eight years at that point and had hundreds of different incidents that they investigated.
They approached it like scientists would.
They looked for prosaic explanations.
They looked for gravity anomalies.
They looked for psychoactive plants.
Could there be hallucinations caused by magic mushrooms or something?
Are the witnesses lying?
They investigated the background of the family that had lived there.
And they found out that it could not be explained, all the range of activity there.
Well, it starts with UFOs because that's what got their attention.
The Uinta Basin in northeastern Utah has always been a UFO hotspot.
Everybody who lives there basically has seen them.
Balls of light, orbs, structured craft, daylight, nighttime.
In 1976, a guy named Dr. Frank Salisbury wrote a book about it, The Utah UFO Display.
And he took hundreds of these cases that have been collected by the locals.
There was a local science teacher named Junior Hicks.
Who, because he had taught generations of kids science in that area, when people would see UFOs, they'd call up Junior Hicks.
And he went and go and investigate them.
And he had had hundreds and hundreds of files.
He gave them over to this guy, Salisbury, who wrote a book about it.
And he said, these are real.
You know, they're going on.
But Junior Hicks would disregard any high strangeness cases that came along with the UFOs.
Anything weird, Bigfoot, Ghosts, anything like that.
He thought it was too incredible, and he discarded that.
Bigelow buys the ranch.
He hears about these stories going on on this one property, flies in, meets with the rancher.
And by this time, that rancher and his family had lived on the ranch for 20 months.
And they were so scared that he, his wife, and his two kids were all sleeping at night on the floor in the same room because it had messed with them so badly.
Their property had had...
Ghost-type activity?
Poltergeist kind of things?
Trickster activity?
For example, the wife goes shopping to the grocery store.
She buys all this food, comes back, puts it on the table, takes it out, puts it in the shelves, leaves the room, comes back in, all the food's back in the bag.
She would take a shower in the morning, locks the door, puts a towel and a hairbrush on the cabinet, gets out of the shower, door's still locked, hairbrush and towel are gone.
Dad's out in the field.
He is digging a post hole, using a post hole digger, a happy piece of equipment.
He stops for a second, wipes his brow, looks back, and it's gone.
And they find it two weeks later up in a tree.
They start hearing voices at night in the air speaking a strange language.
They start seeing shapes outside the window at night, big, lurking humanoid shapes, hearing heavy footsteps outside, then hearing heavy footsteps inside.
Then their animals started being mutilated.
Cows.
The tracks would lead out into the snow and then just be gone.
Calves mutilated, cut up with surgical precision.
Cats wiped out, carved up.
Dogs that were vaporized.
Hundreds of these incidents.
They would see holes in the sky, like a great big hole in the sky and things flying in and out of it.
Now this rancher, college-educated guy, grounded, strict religious guy, Thinks the government is trying to run off his property.
So he's out there at night lurking with a gun, trying to catch whatever government agents are doing this stuff.
And it's not government agents.
It was something else.
They start seeing UFOs of all shapes and sizes.
The first one they saw was like a, they thought it was a Winnebago.
This ranch is a beautiful place, and it only has one way in and one way out.
They see these two lights that look like headlights down in the third homestead.
How How did this guy get past the house here and get down there?
He must be stuck.
Let's go down and help him out.
The lights start coming toward he and his son.
Then they go up into the sky, up over the trees, and then poof, gone.
These different kinds of orbs, the white ones that were intelligently controlled, not fireflies, not bugs, blue ones that would go, they seemed to touch the fear center in your brain.
They'd get near them.
They looked like a little bigger than a softball.
Made out of glass with a swirling blue liquid, scared the hell out of the animals, and then it scared the hell out of the people, too.
This literally drove them to their knees with fear.
These red orbs that would stampede the cattle.
They lost so many cattle that they began to think that they were going to go under.
They had these four prized bulls.
I know I'm jumping around, but there's a lot of stories.
These four prized bulls, 2,000 pounds each, behemoths, very expensive animals because they were raising seven tall cattle.
Had them in the corral, and the husband and wife, they always felt like they're being watched.
He says to the wife as they're driving to town, man, if something happens to one of those bulls, We'll go under.
We'll be done.
They come back a half an hour later.
All four of the bulls are gone.
They jump out.
They're freaking out.
Where did they go?
Did somebody steal them?
Are they rustlers looking around all over the place?
In this corral is a metal trailer where they used to store tools.
And there's only one door into it.
And it's locked with this heavy piece of wire.
The door's still locked.
The wire is still on there.
The guy, just as a last resort, he looks into the grating on top of this trailer, and there's the four bulls inside.
Door's still locked.
They're all crammed in there.
Now, you could take a forklift.
You could have a team of 50 people, and they couldn't get those bulls in that trailer, but there they were.
He yells to his wife, Hey, honey, they're in here.
And when he says that, the Bulls wake up as if out of a trance, kick the door down and all got out.
The NIDS team, which had been on the property for a couple of years at that point, fly in.
They had been in Las Vegas.
They fly back in.
They look around.
They check out the animals.
The whole corral, which is made out of metal, had been magnetized.
So whatever technology was used to get those bulls from the corral into that trailer left a magnetic signature.
They were there on the property, the NIDS guys, for several years.
Bigelow owned it for 20 years.
But eventually they gave up.
Whatever this thing was, this intelligence, it did not like being stalked and it played tricks on them.
And they never made the stuff public because what are you going to do?
Write a paper about this?
Who's going to print it?
You can't make a documentary about it because they weren't there with cameras.
I mean, so Bigelow puts up cameras all over the property, and you have them focused here where some activity had happened before, the thing moves over here.
You move the cameras and focus there, it goes away.
Toward the end of the study, whatever it was that was there, one of these cameras would rip to shreds.
They're up on top of a telephone pole.
30, 40 feet in the air.
And there's wires that are secured all the way down the telephone pole.
And they notice that one of their cameras goes out.
They figure, well, there's another camera on another pole that should have a view of whatever it was that tore this up, some kind of animal or whatever.
Well, whatever it was, was invisible.
And I know it's very frustrating.
It certainly was for them and for me to try to write about it in that this thing didn't want to be caught.
It wanted to demonstrate that it was there, but it didn't want to have evidence.
The calf that was mutilated was in – I know it's a lot to handle.
I mean, it seemed to be a demonstration to get their attention.
This trickster element has been reported in other places around the world.
There's no hotspot quite like Skinwalker, and I know how weird it sounds.
There's no spot like that because there's no spot that's been studied to that extent.
The NIDS guys were there for, well, Bigelow owned the property for 20 years.
NIDS was active for seven or eight.
Then another secret study funded by the government came in.
Under an organization called Bass.
That was the money that Reed got.
He got 22 million dollars and went to Bigelow as a contract and they hired all these people and fanned out all over the world to try to find UFO information but other related phenomena.
Things that wouldn't seem normally to be connected to UFOs but which are.
A guy from the DIA had read the book and became interested and he asked for permission to go to the property.
This guy's a double PhD, a brilliant rocket scientist who had seen it and thought there were national security implications, the hole in the sky in particular with things coming in and out.
He wondered if someone was using technology to make these things happen.
I mean, look, let's say it's people doing this, you know, to farmers to get them out of there.
Let's say it's some program.
I mean, although the cattle mutilation thing, you gave me a stack of documents this big, has been studied by the FBI. It's happened all over the country.
Is that something killed that, they butchered it, they chopped all the meat off of it, and then they removed the carcass from that area and dropped it off there.
While you're looking, I'll tell them about one of the theories about the cattle mutilations that Dr. Kelleher, Dr. Colin Kelleher developed, was that somebody is tracking the spread of, like, mad cow.
through the food supply and that they've been doing it under the guise of UFOs.
Since no one would take UFOs and cattle mutilation seriously, they just do it in helicopters.
And instead of just stealing these cattle, they're tracking how far these indestructible prions travel through the food supply because it's in cattle.
It's in pigs.
It gets fed into chickens and things like that and feed.
It's in deer.
It's called chronic wasting disease in some circles.
And the reason he called me is because in my movie, you could see this special kind of slice, like a jagged slice that is common to these types of things they think are real mutilations.
And he is looking at it.
He's like, that's exactly like in the movie.
And this is a straight shooter.
He's a religious guy.
He had to ask his pastor if he could even, like, go on camera with me.
Freaks him out so he sees this now he sees dead animals all the time and he saw this cow he said before Accidentally he was out shooting BB guns with his kid and he's on this big part of land and he sees this down bull and He goes over to it and he's looking at it and it's unlike anything he has ever seen in all of his years before it had Surgical cuts there is no doubt somebody Killed Cut up this animal with those classic,
like the ear gone, two types of tools, like a scissor type.
By the way, I tried to cut it.
It is not easy to cut.
So they had sharp tools, and then there's like a very thin slice kind of cut.
So I got to take it, get samples, take them to labs, and try to see...
I mean, I've been to the ranch, the Skinwalker Ranch, in the basin more than two dozen times.
I've never seen anything.
I've interviewed the neighbors.
I've interviewed the scientists.
These are PhD-level guys who had seen this stuff.
A lot of times they have cameras that fail.
I mean, it's, you know, you've heard that story before, and it's very convenient that it happens just when some giant disc shows up, but it does happen, that their car batteries would die in the same spot.
Whatever it was messed with them.
And maybe it's humans.
Maybe it is human technology.
But no humans were ever found to be doing this stuff.
NIDS was there for all those years.
They didn't want to tell anybody about it.
They shared the information with me, but you can't publish it.
There's no real physical proof.
So they just left it there.
And I had tried to do a documentary.
Ended up, I talked to them to let me write a book about it.
But, you know, if people...
If you're looking for physical evidence and solid proof, they don't have it.
And it's like, I wouldn't think I would ever be interested in this.
But someone calls you and says they've got a fresh cattle mutilation and they're associated with the UFO phenomenon.
Sure, I'm going to look into it.
What I find more interesting is what's happening now with the government study that started here at Skinwalker Ranch, OSAP, the one that was in the New York Times, and where the information is going now.
The Skinwalker story, lack of physical evidence though there may be, comes to the attention of the Defense Intelligence Agency, this guy, this scientist who sees it.
He goes to Bigelow.
They go visit the property.
He looks around.
He has an experience.
He's not there 15 or 20 minutes and something appears inside a house that only he can see.
He doesn't say anything about it.
He goes back to Washington, meets with Harry Reid in a skiff in the Capitol and two other U.S. Senators.
He presents them the proposal for a study of UFOs and related phenomena, not just like AATIP, looking at flying saucers that encounter U.S. military, but something more expansive.
They put out a contract.
Bigelow bids on it, creates an organization called Bass.
Again, puts together a team of experts, 50 or 60 employees, and they start studying it.
They go around the world.
They interact with other governments.
They get their files.
They send out teams to hotspots to try to figure it out, looking at whether there are connections between what we call flying saucers, possible aliens, and all these other different phenomena.
The program goes on for a couple of years, and somebody yanks the funding.
And get this, the reason that the DIA suddenly became worried about all this weirdness that was being reported at Skinwalker and elsewhere is because they thought it was demonic.
And they thought, if this comes out that we're studying this weird phenomena, A, it's going to end up on the front page of the New York Times, which it did, and B, we might be invoking Satan in here.
These were fundamentalist Christians in the Pentagon who pulled the money because they thought it was the devil.
But the ATEP program, which is what Lou Elizondo headed up, that looked just at military UFO encounters, continued.
Pentagon says it was ended.
It did not.
It continued for a couple of years, and after the New York Times story comes out and creates this furor, it got funding.
And it now has a structured organization, and it is looking into cases where the U.S. military sees these things.
And off the coast of Virginia, they've been seeing this stuff.
I think Fravor talked about it when he was here.
Beach balls with cubes inside of them.
And they were sitting there for hours off the coast, right where our warplanes would go out for training exercises, as if they wanted to be seen.
And it went on.
There were 70 or 80 witnesses during 2015-2016, pilots.
Some of them were willing to talk about it, some weren't.
It continues to this day.
Now the program is on more solid footing.
Now Congress has been informed and they want to expand it and get more information.
We are told the New York Times is working on another follow-up story to look into reports of what Lazar said, crash retrievals, reverse engineering, the existence of these metamaterials, bits and pieces that Grand Pod stashed in a barn somewhere, whether it's Roswell or other alleged crashes.
They're taking it seriously to figure out if there's something about these materials that we could not have created.
So the BAS program, the OSAP program, created a baseline of what we know about the state of our technology right now in different disciplines, lift and propulsion, things of that sort.
They commissioned 38 papers that would be the baseline for what the state of human knowledge was in 2009.
And those papers were published on an internal Department of Defense website, but they never have been made public.
Six of them have now leaked out, and I brought along two more for you that have not been made public.
Yeah, the harm that is done to the body, what they call close proximity to a UAP, which is a UFO. There are known effects to the human body that are horrible.
And there was a study that focused on the witnesses they do know had close encounters, like military people.
And then how it negatively impacted their body.
So each of these reports, as he obtains them or as people find them, they're very illuminating to what our government knows.
There was one that looked at how you would track a hypersonic vehicle traveling through space.
How difficult would it be?
It doesn't say UFOs, but it's looking at things that really travel fast that are coming in from space into our atmosphere.
How would you track that?
Now, when that paper was written in 2009, we didn't have hypersonic weapons.
Now, the Russians claim they've got them.
Now, it's very timely because we're in a rush to develop those things.
So that was one of the papers that I made public last year, and I interviewed the engineering professor who wrote it.
He wasn't writing about UFOs.
He was writing about the state of knowledge about hypersonic weapon systems back then.
It's a similar thing for metamaterials.
That's what this paper is.
How would you engineer materials so you could travel through space that would have, say, you shoot it with microwaves and it could develop certain special properties?
Just to put into context maybe, because here's the deal.
Our government has now admitted there are UFOs.
That's the world we're living in.
They're unidentified objects or craft that seem to outpace, outmaneuver, actively jam our radar systems, even go over our military installations of high sensitivity.
There are incursions.
All of this is now said.
It's a different world we're living in.
The next thing that people are talking about now is, well, we also have materials.
We'll call them metamaterials.
Materials associated with UFO craft.
They might even go as far as to say we have whole materials, craft, from somewhere else.
Hal Puthoff, who was a physicist who worked with Bigelow on both NIDS and BASS, made a presentation in Las Vegas in June of 2018, where he says, yeah, we've got these materials and we're trying to figure out where they came from and how they were engineered, because some of them Appear to be multi-layered that are beyond what is known engineering capabilities of humans.
It looks like they would have had to have been made in, say, zero gravity of space, and we don't have any manufacturing plants up there.
He implied that they came from crashes.
Doesn't mean it's a UFO from Zeta Reticuli.
It's crashed from somewhere, and we don't know whose it is.
So they're trying to figure out whether we can duplicate it or not.
So the Army now has these metamaterials that were famously put in through, actually, the Coast to Coast show.
It was called Arts Parts.
I told you this last time.
I did.
I was able to obtain them briefly and have five scientists from New Mexico that I knew, material scientists, physicists, interrogate, as they say, the samples for numerous days.
I don't believe that I had access to the best equipment.
That's one of the exact pieces that I had in my hands and worked on with my team, and I filmed it all.
But right now, because of TTSA, they've made a deal with the Army, and I think the Army has these parts.
But I feel like we're missing the big note here.
The big note is, a few years ago, UFOs are still laughable.
Military doesn't look after that.
Turns out we have programs that do.
I'm suspecting, and maybe you can talk more about it, that the next piece of information is that there are reverse engineering programs, which will then make everybody have to look at Lazar's story a little bit differently once again.
If we admit that we are trying to reverse engineer either materials or actual craft from somewhere else, intelligently designed metals or craft from somewhere else, if there are crash retrieval programs, For vehicles we don't know where they're from, that's going to make me look at Bob's story even more differently.
Alleged extraterrestrial material from the bottom of a wedge-shaped craft in the late 1940s made of 26 alternating layers, 1 to 4 microns dark bismuth.
And 100 to 200 microns of silver magnesium zinc alloy, each of the six pieces received from the U.S. Army source, were formed with a curvature that tapered.
Well, Jacques Vallée has like 20, as I said last, Jacques fucking Vallée, he's got like 27 samples of things associated with crash retrieval.
So if anybody has an archive of this stuff that's being scientifically interrogated right now, and his studies do show isotopic ratios that are not from this earth, so he's confident with his research.
I remember reading about J. Allen Hynek when he was running Project Blue Book and how he initially started it with the intent to debunk all of these stories and come up with some sort of rational explanation that he could pass off to the general public.
The best evidence for me, because look, I'm just curious about this.
This is just one of those places where all the answers aren't there.
I want to know, man.
So the best evidence for me, because I ask that same question to everybody, it's the fact that we're being lied to.
That alone, we can prove that.
We can prove that our government intelligence agencies have actively partake in lying to us about the UFO subject.
That there are craft of unknown origin that fly with impunity in our airspace globally and throughout history.
And so the fact that they are lying and have been lying, that makes me, I'm like, why are you lying to me then?
I want to find out.
So for me, that's the greatest evidence that there's scientific studies on this stuff.
And everybody's hush the fuck hush about it.
Why?
Is it like North Korea had leapfrogged us 50 years ago, so all of a sudden, you know, that's our enemy?
I mean, who is operating this craft that comes in from outer space, drops down to sea level, docks like the Tic Tac was docking with a USO, an underwater craft, and it outpaces our military jets?
You've got to be dead to not be curious about this.
So that's the greatest evidence to me is the fact we've been lied to as an American population and we're just starting to peel back layers that this shit is real and our military is worried about it.
Well, if we haven't been lied to, at the very least, they haven't felt it.
Well, if they don't have real evidence other than this stuff that we're discussing, if this is all they have, I don't know what they would tell the general public.
It was like, why would they talk to the government?
Like, if you came from another planet and you were looking at us, us weird territorial chimps with nuclear weapons, why would you pick one group and then talk to them as opposed to just the general public?
Well, there's one thing that Bob talked about from some of the documents that he had been given when he was working at S4 was that they had actually taken a part in engineering human beings.
And that is, to me, like, if you wanted to say, like, what's the thing that's going to get people to roll their eyes the most?
Well, you would say, well, the aliens came down here and they got a hold of the lower hominids and they accelerated the evolutionary process and they created human beings.
A lot of people go, get the fuck out of here.
That's crazy.
But if you look at people, one of the weird things about people is how much we vary.
We're so different.
Not like any other animal.
Other than dogs.
And dogs are the way they are because we've fucked with them.
Because we've manipulated them.
We are the dogs of the rest of the world.
If you really think about it, We're so different than every other primate.
There's not even anything close to us.
And I know there were some other human species.
How do you say it?
The Denovians, right?
There's Neanderthals, Homo floriensis, which was those little hobbit people.
There have been a bunch of other humanoids.
But nothing that came close to what we are.
And if you look at ancient primates and us, the leap.
Between them and us is so quick.
The doubling of the human brain size over a period of two million years is just bonkers.
Like they don't know why.
They don't know what happened.
They have no idea.
But if that really is what happened, If they said, listen, they're going to get there, but we can help.
Like, let's just jump in, because these things...
Like, look, chimps are still chimps, right?
They're still murdering each other.
They're still tearing monkeys apart and eating them alive.
They're still doing the same things they've been doing for thousands and thousands of years, whereas we're living in condominiums and watching cable.
You know, it's like whatever has happened to humans has happened so...
The advancement is so unique.
It's so different than any other animal.
If we really have been visited since the beginning of time, since history, if all those biblical stories and all the stories from the Bhagavad Gita and all these ancient texts that do talk about Vimanas and flying crafts and beings that come down from upon high, if all that really is Aliens intervening with the biological evolution of human beings.
How fucking weird are we?
If you think about how weird we are, period, maybe that would kind of explain that.
Look at how they've handled COVID. Well, if you would think about if aliens coming down and interfering with weapon systems and interfering with nuclear launch codes and things along those lines, like If you think about the uptick in alien sightings and activity post-Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that would kind of make sense.
Like, alright, these fucking dickheads, they've gotten to a point where they can do some really crazy shit and they literally might ruin this whole thing.
The technology that shows up that may be reverse engineered or craft or bits and pieces, you know, I sometimes equate it with, let's throw us, we're aliens, let's throw a cell phone into a chimpanzee cage.
Here, have at it.
See how you do for a while.
I don't know that we're ever going to figure this stuff out.
And how do you tell a population, if you do study UFOs as a government and you find out, okay, shit, they're a craft and they're coming in, they're probably studying us.
Like, how do you fucking tell people that?
Like, how are people going to react?
And the way that it's so compartmentalized, that's been the best proof to me as well.
If I've talked to somebody who's worked on a project and they're like, all I saw was a supercapacitor in 1974 and I know this was not something we made.
He was told nothing else.
He just saw a technology that was more efficient than anything he had ever seen.
So the idea that people are funneling this information, whoever is funneling it, and protecting this information as we see How OSAP and AATIP didn't get special access permission.
That's a special type of program.
They knew about crash retrieval programs.
So they said, we want to compare notes and information with other UFO projects.
Like other retrieval programs, material programs, stuff that Bob has talked about.
So just the fact that it's so hidden, even within its own mechanism, that they won't allow this scientific team to work on this project, it tells me, as Ravi says, something's up.
Well, it was what the way he described best is that scientific research, the way you progress is everybody works together and it doesn't happen in a vacuum.
So they were literally trying to do scientific research without the scientific method.
They were trying to withhold information from them And only get them to concentrate on one aspect of this project without the whole group coming together and getting some sort of a comprehensive understanding of what these things are.
I mean it wasn't any you could tell he would stop and he would wince and you know he just didn't like the idea that he was gonna do this thing that he knew that millions and millions of people gonna see him talk about this for hours and hours and he knew it was all gonna come back up again all the investigation all the people fucking with them all the attention that he had avoided another important point is this is not a guy who profited off of this story no and This guy told this story for 31 years and didn't profit off of it.
Andrew was at the bar before, when Bob and I arrived, we'd go up to the bar.
I didn't know who Andrew was, right?
And then Joe walks in, hey, Andrew.
And he had been sitting right next to us.
So Joe was putting spies out.
That was a good move.
But, you know, it's so frustrating.
It's fun.
And I think I would have stopped.
But George has been doing this 30 years.
It's like you always get one step forward.
And look, we all want to know if this stuff is true, but the weight of the evidence is so heavy now with the government programs and everything that you've been involved with.
It's just an exciting time.
And I think I learned more In this last year than all the time before.
And I think that that's going to continue.
I don't think we're all of a sudden going to say, okay, this doesn't matter anymore.
And they get abducted and through hypnotic regression tell this crazy story of they lost time, their car stops, this UFO shows up and then they have this classic abduction story that we have heard time and time again.
And I had this conversation with someone where they were saying, do you believe in these UFO abductions?
And I said, I don't.
I don't believe in them, but I don't not believe in them either.
I don't.
I just keep a blank slate with this because...
And their take was like, wouldn't you think more people would talk about it?
I go, why would they do it that often?
I go, how many unique occurrences would have to take place before it would be common knowledge?
How many times would people have to be abducted before you would believe?
And what would they get out of these abductions?
And look, we know what we're willing to do with chimpanzees or gorillas or any other primate orangutans that we find in the wild.
They run experiments on them.
They capture them.
They do things to them all the time.
Why wouldn't something that's infinitely more intelligent than us abduct two folks that are driving somewhere, Betty and Barney Hill?
Yeah, and so he writes this book about UFO abductions.
And I actually found out about it from my friend Mora, who worked with me on news radio with Dave Foley.
She actually was reading the book.
She's like, this is right up your alley.
She goes, it's so crazy.
Like, I didn't know what to think.
Somebody recommended it.
But along the way, she's like, these stories are so similar.
It's crazy.
Like, there's all these different people that don't know each other from all over the world that have really similar stories.
Like, if this thing is happening, again, how would anyone know?
And how many times would they have to do it?
And why would it be common knowledge?
Like, if they have the ability to come here from another galaxy or another solar system, and they can...
Penetrate our defenses and hover over a place and abduct someone and run experiments on them and put them back there with some sort of a Distorted memory which it seems to be part of the story and many of them that their memory is at least partially wiped and they come back very confused Like how many of those would take place before we would all know about it?
I mean you they wouldn't have to do it that often There's 300 million people and they do it once a week Who the fuck is going to know?
It wants to show us glimpses of itself and glimpses of other realities, but it doesn't want us to be able to prove it.
It's as if it's trying to tell us it's like a learning curve, you know, that reality isn't what it used to be, that it's way more complicated than you might think it is.
That's sort of like what we got out of the ranch is that it's putting all these different weird phenomena together when you can't really prove any of them.
I mean, Jacques Vallée had said, if you can manipulate space-time, if you can create your own gravity like the craft that Bob was talking about, you could be from other planets, other solar systems, other times, you could be time travelers, you could be from other dimensions, or all of the above.
Dr. John Mack had suggested that abductions and these strange experiences in connection with them suggest that we're part of a galactic neighborhood, a cosmic neighborhood, multidimensional reality that we haven't got our heads around yet.
And that it's important for our ultimate survival that we figure it out.
Remember, he is a journalist that broke mob stories, corruption stories, political corruption stories.
I mean, just last year.
I mean, this guy's been doing this for 30-something years.
UFOs has defined him because the world at large has defined him by the UFOs.
That's because of the stigma.
Now, of course, he's made lots of headway and does the coast show like Art Bell.
But what he's doing now is kind of cool.
After 30 years of studying this and filming with people on news, you get to drop 12 seconds, one minute in a news report.
He has a Akashic record of everybody ever involved with claims about this stuff throughout the last 30 years.
And he's been dumping it all online So all of his collective wisdom over the years of what could this fucking be?
He is now starting to release those archives And so this is for me It's a very exciting time because like the Lazar interviews There's so much more out there now that he had under his station where do you keep that?
You know, I had the support of my news director and the station at the time.
And, you know, they were encouraged by the reaction from our audience.
It was big.
And then it expanded and went all over the world.
But I think they worried that I was going too far down the rabbit hole.
So I had to be careful.
I mean, for me, it is not my religion.
I'm not chasing this because I've got a hole in my heart where God should be.
It's a story.
It's always been a story.
And so I try to be careful and not commit to a position.
It's space aliens.
It's interdimensionals.
I'm following what evidence there is.
I'm listening to the witness testimony and trying to figure it out.
And over the years, you know, I have been all over the world to chase this down.
In the end, a lot of the answers of the best information was right in Las Vegas because of Bigelow and the organizations that he founded.
All that expertise came right into my backyard.
And Harry Reid being the sponsor to the program that became ATIP. I mean, I've been fortunate to be a fly on the wall and to gain their trust.
And it's tricky.
You know, it's tricky because so many people find this to be crazy and ridiculous.
Whenever I do a story not related to UFOs, it's about some crooked politician or cops or something like that, and people are mad at me, which happens often, they bring up UFOs.
I think, you know, I'll go back to the New York Times story that changed so much.
So I had known that stuff, and when I found out they were going to do it, I had known about the program that was underway.
I said, hey, why don't I get to do this?
Because I've known about all this time.
I've kept quiet about it because that was my agreement.
I'm going to do this story.
They said, no, this is Bigelow, Senator Reid, and Tom DeLonge had asked me, don't do that.
If you do it, the New York Times said they'll back out.
And so I sort of, I don't want to say took one for the team, but I realized I'm not the New York Times.
They were gently letting me know I'm the UFO reporter.
If I do it, nobody's going to pay attention to it.
If the New York Times does it, then everybody does pay attention to it.
And they did.
They did that story.
Then the Washington Post and Politico, all the new networks did stories of press all over the world.
It is now acceptable for reporters to dig into it.
You have to be careful.
There are still liars and scammers out there who will mislead you, but there is information that can be pursued by reporters, and I think that's made all the difference.
It made Congress more comfortable with exploring it, and our world is different than it was two and a half years ago.
Well, the other thing that he was talking about that we didn't really get to is that that thing not only was recognizing that he was there, but it was jamming.
That's one of the cool things now that's happening is because of the New York Times article, and really because you had Bob on and Commander Favorite, people are talking about this in the zeitgeist.
I've had more people, serious people, come forward to me in the last year of my life than ever before.
And it includes soccer moms and just people that just...
I mean, Joe, it's everything you can imagine from seeing craft that are right there, right in front of them to, you know, abduction stories, which I don't get into because it's too crazy for me.
But they're reporting sightings, encounters, all UFO stuff.
That's why they call me.
They don't call me for other stuff, right?
But also very serious people.
People that have worked or do work within our military and say, I had an encounter.
There was an incursion.
I know George has dealt with this for 30 years.
It's just new for me that the amount of people coming forward to me and telling me their stories and giving me documents and stuff like that, I got to be careful because a lot of it's got to be bullshit.
It's crazy people, and some of it might be more organized than that.
The reach of your show, Joe, when Bob was on there, I know what happened to Jeremy as a result of it.
I get a little bit of the blowback because people are interested in the topic, but it's amazing how much of an impact it's had to kindle people's interest, not only in that story, but in others and the general topic.
By the way, this paper...
It says, with a 75% probability, the nearest extraterrestrial civilization is located in between 1,361 and 3,979 light-years from us.
I mean, there was a lot of naysayers back in the day that were quote-unquote UFO experts that had more traditional ideas of how they traveled here, like Stanton Friedman.
He had his hot potato theory that they just did it in short bursts, like very fast travel in short bursts that you could tolerate.
And he didn't believe in Bob Lazar, too, but I always felt like there was some weirdness there.
UFO guys and researchers are so used to people being full of shit that everyone but them is full of shit.
And that's what I felt like with Stanton.
When Stanton would discredit Bob's education pass and all these different things, I'd be like, yeah, but I don't know.
I don't think you know him.
I don't think you talk to him.
I don't think you get in the room.
Just empty out.
Empty out all your predisposed notions of who the guy is and look at it.
What if he's telling the truth?
Like, what if he's telling the truth?
Does that place actually exist?
Area S4? Yes.
Does he have some weird knowledge of it?
Yes.
Did he really work at Los Alamos Lab?
Yes.
Did people who work there remember him?
Yes.
Does he know how to navigate the building from the inside?
Yes.
Was there a fucking article in the newspaper where he built a fucking jet car and it said he was a physicist at Los Alamos Lab?
Yes.
These things are piling up, Stanton.
I wish you were alive.
I wish you were alive because he was a really smart guy.
He was also obsessed with UFOs.
But again, these UFO experts all believe that everyone else is full of shit.
I had a 20-year dialogue with Stan Friedman and I respect the hell out of him because he really plodded away and really plowed the ground on the topic in general and tried to make it respectable.
But he had a blind spot about Bob.
We had multiple face-to-face conversations and exchanged letters over the years.
Did you bring up, like, I'm sure Bob told you the same story he told me about working at Los Alamos Lab and his education at MIT. I did not tell him that story, but it would not have mattered because Stan didn't hear any of that stuff.
All the things about, how does he go out and know it's going to fly on Wednesday night and take friends out there three weeks in a row and then record it on video?
So if this UFO thing is real and there are these intelligent craft and stuff, can we accept that it is aware of us?
That it is aware that we have cell phones, that it is aware that we want to monitor it, and if it's highly advanced, wherever it's from, I don't care if it's fucking aliens or, again, North Korea, I don't care who it is, but if they're that advanced, if this technology, if there's any weight to it, which there is, then we have to know that they are aware of us looking at them, and that they can...
Work from a technologically more advanced standpoint, right?
I mean, I have to accept that.
Skinwalker, all that, it was hard for me when I started doing the film and working with George on it.
It's hard for me.
Where's the concrete evidence?
I see Commander Fravor.
That's concrete evidence.
The documents.
That's what he first showed me is documents, documents.
Great.
That's hard evidence.
So I know it's hard to accept some of that, but I'm not going to exclude it.
So, you know, there might be some scary explanations ultimately that they live here, that they can see us and read our thoughts and we're in the shower and we're sleeping and they're watching and they manipulate us on a micro and macro scale that it's their planet, not ours, that we're an agricultural product.
That's scary.
The other thing that's scary is what if we are totally alone, you know?
That we're the only life anywhere.
That this is the only inhabited planet.
Some people believe that.
I don't, but that's pretty scary too because you look at how we take care of ourselves and it's not very well.
The whole subject is such a weird one because you spend a lot of time on it and you start thinking, am I just wasting my precious energy here on nonsense?
But then you hear Like, one of the things that Bob told me that was so strange was when we were doing the podcast, he was saying that they think that one of them was really old.
It was from an archaeological dig.
And I was like, well, why are they leaving spacecrafts around?
Are they leaving spacecrafts around so I could let them figure this shit out?
So as our military devices get better at detection, UFO sightings are going up.
And it's because we now can look at them purely through thermal heat signature compared to just flying in— But some of them don't display a thermal heat signature.
You know, is that there's anything you can imagine and more.
This cop just called me a month ago, and he's not a UFO guy or anything, and he had an encounter, he claims, that was so extraordinarily strange, like non-aerodynamic, something impossible.
He saw something impossible.
They come in all shapes and forms.
It's just that as we look more, we're seeing more, I think, because our technology is increasing and maybe because our awareness also, we're starting to be more curious, our government and our scientists.
I think the scientific community should engage this topic.
You have stuff to study now.
Michio Kaku famously recently said the burden of evidence about these not being extraterrestrial craft is now on the scientific community because there's such a weight of evidence now.
Our government's working on it, the Russians are working on it, and the Chinese are working on it.
That we know of for sure.
That's been told to me directly.
Senator Reid had said that was one of the reasons he started the program, because he's had indications that those other governments are trying to figure out the same stuff that we're figuring out.
And if some of us can master that technology, the Russians get it, the Chinese get it before we do.
It's one of the most compelling subjects that the human race has ever known.
Are we alone?
And if we're not alone, is something as advanced to us as we are to ants?
And that is...
Obviously, if you follow the string of evolution, things become more and more complex, and in the case of primates, they become more and more intelligent, more and more capable of manipulating their environment.
So if we extrapolate and we go a thousand years from now, or we take ourselves to a totally different environment where you don't have the same sort of tooth and claw competition as you have here on Earth.
I mean, maybe they exist in some sort of a planet with a completely different Ecosphere, a completely different series of metals and different propulsion systems get invented first, long before fire.
I mean, maybe they're just messing with some stuff that's just very different than us.
Maybe they live in a more stable environment where they don't have to worry about asteroid impacts, and they've had a steady chain of evolution that's gone on for millions of years.
And a million years in terms of biological life on Earth is really nothing.
It's nothing.
We haven't even been alive for a million years.
Humans haven't been human for a million years.
So just think what goes on a million years from now.
The other thing that always trips me out is the archetypal alien.
When you look at it, it's like if you took...
Cavemen, or you go back to chimps and cavemen and then humans, you're seeing this pattern of the heads are getting bigger, the muscles are getting smaller, the body's getting less hairy.
Well, if you keep going, what do you get?
You get an even bigger head and muscles that are almost non-existent, these like stick bodies, but they still maintain that sort of Iconic primate shape.
They're kind of primate-like, where they walk on two legs, they have two arms, they vary the amount of digits they have on their fingers, they have heads that have predators' eyes, because the eyes face forward, like ours.
Like, are we looking at what always happens to life?
I mean, if life exists the way it exists here and that it always gets to some point where some really intelligent species starts to manipulate its environment and then it starts to look like that, where they develop technology, where they don't need brute force anymore,
so their bodies slowly but surely shrink and become something that's Just not reliant on a muscle strength, but rather on telekinetic ability, the ability to express themselves without words and thoughts.
That's one of the things that Elon said when he was talking about his neural link, which is, you know, if there's a fucking alien on Earth, it's that guy, right?
And he's talking about putting some sort of a device into people's skulls where wires will go to different parts of your brain and you'll be able to greatly Improve your ability to access information.
It will increase your bandwidth of information substantially, and in his words, you'll be able to talk without using words.
Now, when you look at aliens, the iconic alien has this slit for a mouth, very little nose, giant eyes, and an enormous head.
If we allow ourselves to become some hybrid or some symbiotic computer cyborg type thing, isn't that what we're going to look like?
Maybe those things have weird skin because we realize regular skin kind of sucks.
It gets zits.
You get cancer.
It's penetrable.
They've already figured out a way to make some sort of a...
A hybrid of spider silk and human skin that would be bulletproof.
I mean, this is something that they've done research on in a lab.
I mean, whether or not it actually gets to a human body, you know, who knows.
But when you look at those things, when you think of that iconic alien shape, it does remind us, or it reminds us of the process of evolution.
It could be or it just could be their life that's gone further than where we are and they know the process and that's how they were able to confidently manipulate our genetics.
They're like, well, they're going to get there anyway.
Let's just step in and jack up the process.
Maybe we don't have a million years.
Maybe because of where we live in terms of our galaxy.
I mean, this is a legitimate shooting gallery.
There's like some stupid number, like 900,000 near-earth objects that could end us.
A couple of months ago, NASA made an announcement that they thought they had found evidence of or indications of a parallel universe.
And I don't know if you saw that article or not, but they thought that, I don't know if they're theorizing that time Operated in the opposite direction in that parallel universe.
Yeah, it is the ultimate who knows question, but goddamn, I wish more people from S4 would come forth.
If Bob really did work with all those people and they really were briefed the same way he was, if we could get more of those people to talk, that would be utterly fascinating.
But the story that he told me was different than what he told her.
He said that they eventually told me that they had a live alien out there.
That I could not go public with this until after he died.
That they had craft.
That it was in a special spot.
Originally it was at Indian Springs, which is now Creech Air Force Base.
And then it was moved to Area 51 when 51 became active.
And that it was a very small group that tried to analyze this stuff.
They didn't know where it was from.
They didn't know how we obtained it.
He said this thing was alive.
And that they eventually were able to communicate with us and told me that he was going to make a videotape and he was going to make it available so that after he died I could have it.
Well, suddenly two or three years later he totally changes his story.
What had happened was there was a congressional investigator.
His name was Richard D'Amato, and he worked for Senator Robert Byrd.
And he oversaw black budget projects.
And he got onto this UFO story from Whitley Strieber.
And so he was assigned, find out what the deal is.
So he went around the country, talked to different researchers, and came to me and wanted to know about Area 51 and Lazar.
So I told him a story, and I told him about this guy.
And he got permission for this guy to violate his security oaths and talk to him about it.
And they had multiple conversations, and they went to the founders of EG&G, the company, and it became a dead end.
But after that congressional inquiry, this guy completely changed his tune.
So he made up this story, which is the one that you heard from Annie Jacobson, that what crashed at Roswell was a Russian technology, Nazi technology, flown by the Russians, containing little concentration camp victims who'd been experimented on by Dr. Mengele.
Completely ridiculous, you know, story.
But I think he got scared.
He was a real guy in a real position to know and had shared with his family some of this information.
I think the story that he told me was legit.
But if he made the tape, which I think he did, I didn't get it.
I had an operation one time after the Lazar thing, somebody who was targeting me and he had other people helping him that convinced me that he had worked out there with live aliens.
And I'm getting letters from his supposedly written by his neighbors.
Hey, you got to check this guy out, doctor, I'll just say X. He was taken away by armed security in the middle of the night.
I think he has something to do with aliens.
From out of the blue, then suddenly I am at a planetarium event, and I'm going to speak about UFOs at some event at this community college, and the guy shows up in a men's room.
Hey, my name is Dr. X, standing there at the urinal.
You're not doing a story about me, are you?
So, no.
Who are you?
What?
This was a concerted effort to get me to believe that he had worked out there.
And it went on for a couple of years.
And of course it was complete bullshit.
When I finally did dig into his background, I was able to document where he had worked and what he'd been doing through most of his life.
And it was just like a fantasy role-playing thing.
I'm super lucky to have George as a mentor because when I go left and I should be going right, he's like, I've already gone left a decade ago, idiot.
Check this out.
But I don't think a lot of people have somebody like George who can tell you what the bullshit is and prove it to you before you go down the wrong path.
So you're right.
This field of research or whatever, it's filled with curiosity.
That's the good thing.
Human desire.
Everybody in the world has a UFO story and knows somebody else who does.
So it's a common link between us all.
But it is filled with charlatans, kooks, freaks and schizophrenics.
Sure you could say that.
Mainly it's filled with good intended people who are curious too.
But having people like George over 35 years, you know, not make a major mistake, report the news, break stories open.
I'm grateful for that because it makes my job a lot easier.
I can filter the bullshit much faster.
So I'd say, yes, it sucks.
There's a lot of kooks and crazy people in this field, but mainly there's a lot of curious people who are good intended.
I'm encouraged by what's happened in the last couple of years.
I mean, not only the information coming out of the government, because it's a little more solid than what you typically get from UFO people, but also by the new wave of people who are now interested.
Because of your show, because of what's happened since the New York Times story, there's a whole new generation of people who are suddenly waking up and paying attention to it.
I'm glad to see that.
There's some new energy in it.
And ultimately, I hope that those folks, if not me, will be able to get some answers on this someday.
Well, as preposterous as we would like, if we want to sleep well at night, we'd like to pretend that it's impossible, it doesn't make any sense.
Just when you look up, you look up, you see infinity.
You see hundreds of billions of stars just in this galaxy.
And this is one of hundreds of billions of galaxies.
Of course there's something out there.
It's really just of course.
It's not if.
It's not do you think.
It's of course.
Of course.
There's no fucking way there's not.
Whatever happened here that created us is likely to have happened in an infinite number of different forms all throughout the cosmos.
The real question is, can they come here?
And the real question is, if they have come here, where, where from, and how?
And how much interest do they have in us?
And how long have they been paying attention to us?
And how much of the ancient scriptures were really about that?
Like, you know, I mean, everybody shit all over Zechariah Sitchin's interpretations of the Sumerian text, but what if he's right?
What if the Anunnaki really were creatures from another planet that came here and manipulated primate DNA to create people?
And when you see those ancient Sumerian clay tablets that were created where you see a large god-like creature with a humanoid monkey creature with a tail sitting on its lap in this tiny thing, And the image of the solar system with the correct amount of planets and the sun in the center and all.
I mean, obviously, we lost some technologies because, I mean, I'm not an architect, but the stones that are pressed together, almost like they're molded all around the world in these, like, pyramid structures and walls.
You know, it's my understanding that we cannot create that now today as such perfection.
That's incredible if that's true.
Is there a technology that we have figured out and then lost and we're just in a cycle of that?
Well, it's most likely there's been some catastrophes that set humanity back.
There's a lot of evidence that points to that.
There's a lot of evidence that points to this period.
I mean, Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson have done an amazing job of illuminating that.
On this podcast, if you go back and listen to those episodes, there's real physical evidence of asteroid impacts of meteors hitting Earth somewhere in the neighborhood of 12,000 years ago.
And that is also when you go to this period of construction.
There's things that look like they could be older, that are built differently, particularly like in Egypt and a lot of other parts of the world.
And then you find this layer of...
What's it called?
Tritonite?
Trinitite?
What is it?
Trinitite.
Trinitite.
This nuclear glass.
They find that stuff all over when they do core samples.
And it's always around 12,000 years.
And then the...
Almost instant changing of the Ice Age, the floods that followed.
I mean, all the stuff that's detailed in the Bible, like the floods in Noah, that coincides, they believe, with these impacts and that these impacts happened and radically changed the climate, killed an enormous amount of people, probably set technology back thousands of years.
And then we are the product of this sort of slow reboot.
Qualified reporters, you know, like policemen, this is one I keep bringing up, this guy, man, his mind, when he saw this impossible thing, and I believe him, he did see what he said.
He tries to describe it in terms that make sense to him, but he struggles because it was so odd, the craft.
It was just so odd.
So, I don't know.
If you ever see one, let me know, though, because...
No one, nothing, nothing where, you know, there's things that people could get wrong.
You know, there's experimental aircrafts.
Like, I remember the first time I saw a stealth bomber was after September 11th.
We were working out in Palmdale doing Fear Factor, and that's near Edwards Air Force Base.
And I saw one of those things fly by.
I was like, holy shit, it's the fucking, it's the Jedi's or something.
I mean, it just looked like...
It looked like stormtroopers.
Like, it didn't look like something from this world.
When you see that, have you seen a stealth flight?
It's crazy, man.
You look at one of those things like, that's a UFO. Like, I felt like we were in some sort of strange movie, a Star Wars movie.
It was wild seeing that thing fly across the sky.
I was like, wow!
But I knew what it was, you know?
I think if I really saw an actual UFO, I bet your brain would play all kinds of tricks on you in terms of perception and trying to interpret it, especially if it was a very quick thing.
Someone will call me and they say, I don't want to be known.
I just want to tell somebody, you seem accessible.
Let me tell you my story.
Don't report on it.
Okay, cool.
Got it.
They'll tell me they saw a UFO, like a disc or something big, not like a ball of light, something big.
And I'll be like, okay, cool.
Is that it?
Is that where your story ends?
And almost every time, there's something much more personal, much more strange that occurred almost every time.
So you have to imagine people are okay with reporting UFOs to you or whatever.
They can say, I saw what I think of a UFO. But a lot of people aren't telling the full story until you really dig and find out because it makes them uncomfortable.
Time distortions, creatures, beings...
So I don't know, man, if any of that's true, you know, if these experiences go beyond the hardware of the saucers, this sort of thing, then it gets more complicated.