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Nov. 19, 2019 - The Joe Rogan Experience

02:10:25

Joe Rogan Experience #1388 - Louie Psihoyos

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joe rogan

01:01:12

louie psihoyos

01:06:02

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jamie vernon

00:51

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Speaker	Time	Text
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Alright, here we go.
		How are you?
		Good.
		Good to see you.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Good to see you.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		How did you get involved with the Cove?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What was the history behind that?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to give you the long version.
unidentified		Sure.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		There's a good friend of mine, Jim Clark, the guy that started Netscape, Silicon Graphics, WebMD.
		I wanted to film.
		I was doing a story for Geographic back in 1995, I think it came out.
		I was on the Information Revolution, and Jim Clark was sort of the You know, the Steve Jobs of my generation, right?
		And he didn't want to be photographed.
		He was just too busy.
		And then I started working for Fortune magazine, and he had built a boat, the world's tallest mast, I think, at that point.
		And I went over to Amsterdam to film him.
		And we hit it off and he said, would you teach me how to be a good photographer?
		And he made three companies from scratch worth over a billion dollars.
		And I said, well, if you teach me how to be a billionaire, I'll teach you how to be a great photographer.
		And then we traveled all over the world taking pictures for about the next 10 years.
		And we did mostly underwater photography.
		He built the best underwater camera ever made by an order of magnitude.
		It was just a piece of work because Jim doesn't do anything half-ass.
		And every time we would go to a dive site and come back to it, you'd see this shifting baseline where there's less fish, there's less coral.
		In fact, he took me to a place in Papua New Guinea.
		He said, Louie, I'm going to take you to the best place I've ever seen.
		It's in Papua New Guinea.
		We flew over there all day to get there, a day and a half to sail.
		We dive on the GPS coordinates and it's rubble.
		It's completely gone.
		And this is what happened, not all the time, but a lot.
		We don't know what the insults were.
		It could have been dynamite fishing.
		It could have been anything.
		Who knows what it was?
		But I think it was the third time that we were in the Galapagos, Jim turned to me and said something like, you know, somebody should do something about this.
		We saw a fisherman illegally fishing in a marine sanctuary.
		And sort of empowered by the success that he's had in business and seeing how he could change the world in his businesses, I said, how about you and I? He said, what do you mean?
		I said, we'll use your money and my eye and we'll make films.
		So I'm jumping careers at this stage.
		I'm going from being a fairly successful still photographer, really busy, To a career where I had really no business doing it.
		I'd never really made a film before, not even really a short film.
		And so I'm, you know, nervous.
		I'm feeling sort of full of myself, like I'm going to start this great career.
		We're down in the Caribbean on a boat.
		And my kid starts with Jim on vacation with our families.
		And my kid starts playing on the beach with another kid.
		It happens to be Steven Spielberg's kid.
		So Stephen comes over onto the boat to meet Jim and I. He made Jurassic Park using Jim's computers, you know, Silicon Graphics.
		And after I had Stephen alone for a few seconds, I said, do you have any advice for a first-time filmmaker?
		And he said, yeah, never make a movie involving boats or animals.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, great.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, of course the first film we did was The Cove.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But at least these are, you don't have actors and special effects and boats and animals.
		It's just a part of the story.
		It's not like you're, like, with him, I think, what he's meaning, like, jaws.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		Yeah, because, you know, you have to match shots and all that.
		But it has its own set of, you know, trying to keep the horizon level on a boat.
		You don't want to give the audience seasickness.
		Yeah.
		But, you know, I would add to that, like, don't do a movie where people want to kill you, because when we did The Cove, it was, you know, it was exciting but dangerous work.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Yeah.
		Look, that movie changed a lot of people's minds and opened up a lot of people's eyes to the horrors of the way dolphins are slaughtered.
		And, you know, we were just talking about this before the podcast.
		I think they are as intelligent as human beings.
		I just think the difference is they can't change their environment.
		They don't affect their environment the way we do.
		They don't build houses.
		They don't have cars.
		They don't send emails.
		So we don't appreciate what they are.
		But when we look at the complexity of their brains, the fact that their cerebral cortex is 40% larger than a human being, they have this incredibly complex language that we don't even really totally understand.
		We can peck out.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I don't understand any of it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, we could pack out patterns.
		I mean, the scientists have...
		I mean, you know, I'm sure you're aware of John Lilly's work.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		John Lilly, I mean, for years, and did it in, like, really weird, unconventional ways.
		He tried to take acid and communicate with dolphins, and it's one of the reasons why he...
		He created the sensory deprivation tank.
		We actually have one of those over here.
		And Lily, they were forever trying to figure out some way to figure out some method of communication where they were trying to get the dolphins to talk like people and we would try to make their noises and to no avail.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, they're obviously extremely complex, you know, animals.
		And if you, you know, judge them by our value, like people say, oh, you know, they didn't invent, you know, the car and computers.
		But, you know, intelligence can be seen as your ability to, you know, to live, exist in your environment.
		And by that standard, you know, I mean, put us in the water, you know, and, you know, have a go at it and see how we do.
unidentified		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They don't need anything in that world.
		They travel through three-dimensional space.
		I mean, it's incredible what they can do.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		It's not just dolphins, too.
		I mean, look at butterflies, monarch butterflies.
		It takes three generations for them to go to migrate from Canada down to a six-hectare area in northern Mexico.
		And they do that.
		Somehow they find it every year.
		I couldn't find a studio without an iPhone.
		Right.
		I mean, we don't even have a clue on how most of the world works.
		And, you know, the second film I worked on, The Racing Extinction, you know, that's about, we're going through a mass extinction right now.
		We're exterminating this stuff.
		These animals, before we have a chance to even know how they operate, the ecosystem, how it even works.
		A friend of mine said it's like, you know, we're burning down the Library of Congress before we have a chance to know what the books read.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Well, that's what they did with the Library of Alexandria.
		That's why we don't really totally understand how they built the pyramids.
		But what disturbs me is this egocentric approach that we have towards marine life in particular because they're the most intelligent versions of life that we know of other than ourselves that we, for some reason, universally have accepted up until really recently because of your film and because of Blackfish and, you know, More awareness and Sea Shepherd and all these different organizations are trying to let people know.
		You've got to pay attention to what this is because I think history, I think when all said and done, we're going to look at this as some insane slaughter of what's basically like water people.
		They're like some form of super intelligent life that some cultures have just decided are just competitors in the fishing market.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, I can't agree with you more.
		I mean, I think it's, and I think that was the shock of the cove, that you see our counterparts in the ocean being treated like that.
		And I think, you know, when you look at the way we made that film, it was, you know, we pretty much told the story of what's going on in the oceans by looking at that cove.
		And, you know, William Blake said, to see the world in a grain of sand.
		But we could look at, you know, in that film, we talk about overfishing and, you know, listen, the reason that they shouldn't be eaten, besides that they're sentient and intelligent, is also that they're toxic.
		You know, their meat is now, their flesh is now some of the most toxic, you know, waste in the world when you bury them.
		You know, there's, I think, 6,000 times more PCBs than, you know, than the background in the ocean.
		There is, you know, all the flesh that's been tested in Japan in the last 20 years has between 5,000 and 5,000 times more mercury than allowed by Japanese law if it was a fish, but it's a mammal, of course.
		It's insane.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Just hearing that is insane.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I'll tell you an interesting story.
		When we were making that film, there was a point where we went down to the IWC, the International Whaling Commission meeting down in Georgia.
		In Chile.
		And we were trying to get an interview with some of the top people there that run the organization because, you know, whales, dolphins are killing them in mass.
		And we had the footage at that point.
		And we were just hoping to get an interview with somebody that worked for the International Whaling Commission.
		And I think it was going from Houston to Santiago.
		The plane was full.
		I couldn't even sit next to my partners and my buddies on the film crew.
		There was one empty seat next to me.
		And, you know, they were waiting for somebody else to come from another flight.
		And right before the plane door closes, in comes Akira Nakamai.
		He's the head of overseas fishing for Japan.
		The head bull, goose, loony.
		And he sits down right next to me.
		I'm looking at my buddies on the plane thinking, my God, if there is a God, he has a good sense of humor.
		So he sits down next to me.
		I didn't want him to find out who I was.
		And then move.
		So I waited until dinner was served like an hour or two later.
		And I said, do you have any idea who I am?
		He said, no.
		I said, I know who you are.
		I want to show you a film.
		So we had a condensed version of it, probably about 12 or 15 minutes of it at that point, and I showed it to him.
		And I said, how do you reconcile killing these sentient, intelligent animals when you know that their flesh is poisoned?
		And there's recommendations for pregnant women to eat this You know, this flesh, you know, on the Japanese Ministry of Health site.
		And he said, I'm not in charge of food safety.
		I'm in charge of food security.
		In other words, he doesn't have to worry about the health consequences.
		His job is just to provide enough meat on the plate for the Japanese people.
		And it gives you an insight of how he's thinking.
		He's in charge of, I think there's 145 million people in Japan in an area about the size of our California.
		He says 17% of the land area in Japan is only good enough for growing crops on or living on.
		We have to turn to the sea for food.
		And at that point, they were also caught...
		Skimming, stealing about 200,000 tons of endangered bluefin tuna.
		This is over about a 20-year period.
		Now, when you start talking about big numbers like that, I can't imagine, you know, it's hard to imagine it, but imagine like...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		How are they stealing this tuna?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Well, they have quotas.
		And they're exceeding their quotas every year, which means that they're taken away from other countries.
		So it's not just like – every country has their allotment and once you've reached it, you're supposed to go home.
		But the Japanese kept on getting more.
		So the Australians actually caught them.
		They figured out over this 20-year period that they went through the books and saw what they reported and was actually sold at the Tsukiji market and found out they had skimmed 200,000 tons.
		That's five big train cars, like trains full of endangered tuna.
		Like, not cars, but the whole trains, like 110 car trains, five of them full of...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's weird to just reconcile the idea that tuna's endangered.
		You know, you think of tuna as being something that you just get at the store.
		Like, tuna...
		Tuna's a weird one, right?
		Because it's such a common food.
		It's in cans.
		You see it at the sushi place.
		You know what I'm saying?
		To hear that tuna's endangered, most people are like, is tuna endangered?
		They're hearing this going, is tuna endangered?
		But when you talk to people that work at the fish market, they'll very clearly tell you that there's a radical difference between the amount of tuna that was available 30, 40 years ago 10 years ago.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Bluefin tunas in particular is down to 4% of their historical levels.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		That's incredible.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And there's no way to stop this.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It seems like everyone's waiting for someone else to do something and during the meantime everyone's just trying to make money.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		A lot of money.
		Unfortunately, it's sort of what happens with endangered species.
		The more rare it becomes, the more valuable it becomes.
		And so there's very little incentive to do the right thing.
		But this is happening with all the fish stocks.
		I run a little organization called the Oceanic Preservation Society, and I probably gave out more seafood guides than anybody on the planet.
		This is the Monterey Seafood Watches.
		What fish are sustainable?
		And I've seen them You know, go through the fish stocks.
		So less and less, you know, we start at the big animals and we start to, you know, slowly go through all the fish stocks until like we're, you know, like McDonald's used to do halibut.
		Now it's pollock, which is a very small, you know, white fish from Alaska.
		And now that's being hunted to extinction.
		So we're going through these fish stocks.
		That's shifting baseline where you're seeing each successive generation adapts to the diminishment of the previous one.
		That's what's going on.
		So I just stopped handing out seafood guides, and now I'm trying to sort of preempt it.
		So I don't think...
		The big question is, there's 7.5 billion of us on this planet, soon to be 10. Is there enough wild animals to feed us all?
		There isn't.
		You look at the biomass of mammals on the planet.
		Between livestock and humans, we occupy 96% of the biomass of mammals on the planet.
		4% are wild animals.
		Mammals.
		So we can't all be eating wild fish.
		And think about that.
		You never go out and say, let's get some land food.
		We've commodified sea animals.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That is interesting, right?
		You don't say land food.
		That's a really good point.
		You know, they did at the turn of the century.
		I mean, during the late 1800s, rather, there was market hunting.
		In North America, a lot of the soldiers were done with the Civil War, rather.
		They were hunting, and they hunted all the deer, the bear, the antelope, the buffalo, and they got down to incredibly low numbers.
		Elk to this day, I think, are only in 10% of their original range that they were at in the 1700s.
		And that was all from market hunting, from people just going out, buying, you know, meat from these market hunters that have shot these things.
		And they didn't really have refrigeration back then, so it wasn't like they could freeze it and store it.
		And they got down to these incredibly low levels until Teddy Roosevelt and a lot of other people that were conservation-minded realized, like, what was happening here.
		And they put a stop to it all and then started...
		Enacting programs to reintroduce these animals to the areas where they're extirpated.
		And now you see historic levels, especially white-tailed deer.
		There's more white-tailed deer in America now than when Columbus landed.
		But that's a weird one, too, because white-tailed deer are almost a farm animal.
		Because there's so many of them that exist in Iowa and Kansas and around farmlands.
		Like, they literally exist in fields, and a lot of them live off of GMO crops.
		So it's very strange.
		I have a buddy of mine, my friend Doug Duren, who has this huge piece of land in Wisconsin.
		And he's like, the deer in my area are essentially eating GMO corn.
		They're eating Monsanto corn.
		This is so weird.
		Yeah, they're wild, but they're also kind of farm animals.
		You know, because they exist in record numbers because they've got so much food to eat.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		And no predators.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, the only predators they have there, I mean, they have some wolves now, very few, in some parts of the Driftless area in Wisconsin.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I think they have some bears, too, and coyotes, a lot of coyotes that will kill a lot of the fawns.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I lived in Boulder, Colorado for a while and we had a lot of bears and mountain lions come through our yard because we were right at the base of the foothills of the Rockies.
		I woke up one morning and the neighbor was looking at his minivan and there's a big dent in the side.
		He's trying to figure out how to get a dent because it was parked here all night.
		And he found an antler in the bushes.
		And then the question is, how does a deer run into it?
		And then in the paper the next day, there was a picture of a mountain lion on a house down the block, sitting on a hot tub cover, this is in the winter, holding a deer in his mouth with one antler.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, so it attacked it and slammed it into it.
		Oh, Jesus Christ.
		I lost a dog in Boulder to a mountain lion.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		I had a little dog who's part American Eskimo and part Pomeranian.
		The mountain lion got it.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		The mountain lion, I think, got our cat.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they get everything up there, man.
		If it's not them, it's a fox.
		You know, there's a lot of foxes up there that get things.
		But God, it's beautiful.
		Boulder's just incredible, incredible place.
		And you'll be driving down the road and you see, it's weird, like the deer in Boulder know that they're safe.
		So we were looking at this house in Boulder and we opened up the door to the backyard and there was this enormous deer just standing there staring at us.
		And my wife thought it was fake.
		I go, no, that's a real deer.
		She's like, what?
		And then it just turns its head and starts moving around because it wasn't even remotely freaked out that there were people a stone's throw away from it.
		They're just so used to being around people.
		It's weird.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I remember a neighbor of ours planting rose bushes on the front of their property and all proud.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		And then I remember driving home later on that day and there's a deer coming and snipping the tops of the roses.
unidentified		Oh, they love it.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Like a salad bar.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Many people have turned on deer because of the loss of their gardens, the roses especially.
		They love roses.
		Yeah, is there anybody that has ever come up with any sort of a plan to do what they did for wild animals in North America?
		Because you can't regulate it the way you can, wild animals, because in wild animals, if they have a particular area, you could make it so people can't go in that area.
		But the ocean is so enormous.
		Has anybody come up with some sort of a repopulation plan?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Sure, sure.
		E.L. Wilson, I'm on the advisory board of his group.
		It's called the Half-Life Project.
		You know who E.L. Wilson is?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		No.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		E.L. Wilson is a Harvard professor.
		He has two Pulitzer's for his work in biology.
		He wrote the book on biodiversity.
		He's considered the father of modern biodiversity.
		He's about getting right around 90 years old now.
		But looking at, he would do things like go to an island and pretty much exterminate everything on it and then try to figure out, well, at what rate do the animals come back and what's sustainable?
		And he's figured out that to save 85% of the wild animals on the planet, you have to put aside half of it.
		Half of the planet.
		Half the planet.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So the ocean, you would have to literally make half the ocean where people couldn't travel in it?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Not travel, and just not exploit it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		No fishing.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no fishing.
		And so Sylvia Earle is working on hotspots.
		They're called, I think, what she calls this, like blue zones where you have a lot of biodiversity.
		Try to keep those away from fishing exploitation.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		How do they do that, though?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you would have to get everybody on board, right?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, the high seas are, you know, that's tough, right?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		The Japanese were fishing in an international marine sanctuary for decades, you know, so you have to, you know, it's really tough when you have organizations that really don't have any teeth to it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The attitude that he has, that pragmatic attitude about feeding the population, you almost can sympathize with him, right?
		I mean, a hundred plus million people in this tiny place the size of California and just pulling mostly fish out of the ocean.
		I mean, it's a crazy place to be in terms of his position, right?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, I don't envy it at all.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		But, you know, what do you do?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You don't slaughter dolphins.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's what you do.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, we're endangered species.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I don't know what's sustainable anymore.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Is it possible?
		I mean, I know they've done this in some places outside of Hawaii where they've bred animals, fish rather, like sushi fish, like hamachi.
		And they've had these pens set up and then a lot of times a storm will come by like a huge storm and they break these pens and then those fish get wild and people start catching them.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, that's, I mean, like salmon, like, well, you know, I went, they were trying to, in Japan, when we were doing the Cove, we went to a university where they were breeding the first bluefin tuna.
		These are from eggs, you know, so this is when, like, what they do at some places where they catch them, then they put them in these pens, then they fatten them up.
		These were, they're making bluefin from scratch, basically, from eggs.
		And really hard to do, really skittish.
		And when I went there, they were shoveling, this is back when I ate fish, They were shoveling these mackerels, like what I would feed my family with, like a family of four.
		They were shoveling it to the tuna.
		And I said, hold on a minute, like how many, how many, how much...
		How much mackerel does it take to make a pound of tuna?
		They said about seven, up until about 150 pounds.
		And after that, it takes 14 pounds.
		So seven pounds of wild fish to make one pound of farm-raised fish.
		I mean, this is like going to the bank because you want a crisp $5 bill and say, here's a couple 20s.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		But that's, you know, if you look at, you know, what are they feeding, you know, a lot of these fish are feeding them, you know, parts of farm animals and fish, wild fish.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		And I was just reading this morning a Los Angeles magazine that, and the cover it says, you know, fish are fucked.
		And it has, and it talks about, like, the fish that are raised, and I don't know the data behind it, but they have eight times more There's more pollutants in it than wild fish.
		I don't know if it's what they're feeding or maybe because they're sitting in a...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They're stationary.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I think that's a big part of the problem.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, apparently they don't taste as well.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		When we were in Hawaii recently, we went scuba diving and snorkeling.
		So you jump off the boat and you're swimming around.
		And you know what's really fucking weird about that is how few fish there are.
		You expect you're going to dunk your head underwater with those goggles on.
		You're going to see all this wildlife, all these fish swimming around us.
		No, it's not much.
		You don't see much.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there was about 10 years ago, I was down in the Caribbean, a friend was getting married, and I took his daughter out to...
		I didn't know it at the time, but it was her first time snorkeling.
		And we were in an area that I'd been to about 20 years before, and there was nothing.
		There was nothing there.
		It was just like...
		A desert.
		And then I heard her screaming through her snorkel, and I thought, what's wrong?
		And she was screaming because she saw a single orange tang.
		That was the only life form we saw there.
		I used to see clouds of schools of these orange and blue tang.
		Now there was nothing.
		And I thought, my God, she thinks that that's beautiful.
		And it is.
		It's just, you know, the single fish.
		But, you know, again, a shifting baseline.
		The generation before when I was there, it probably looked like the land before time.
		These places I went to with Clark, you know, Rajanpat, where you'd see, you know, if you go to the Caribbean, you might see 30 fish on a different species of fish on a dive.
		And Rajanpat, you'd see 300. And it was just miraculous.
		And when you're taking pictures, you actually see more detail with the picture than you can with your eye can't comprehend it all.
		So it's only when you get back and you see these reefs that we lit like jewel boxes, you see how much life that there is there.
		But there was just unbelievable, stunning amounts of wildlife.
		But that's going on all over the world.
		And the Great Barrier Reef, we lost over half the Great Barrier Reef in the last two years.
		It was never that good anyway.
		You know, 15 years ago, after being to some of the best preserved places in the world that I've been to with Clark, we looked at the Great Barrier Reef and we'd be like, Oh my God, this is not that great.
		And now they've already, then they've lost half again.
		So, I mean, if you're just putting your head in the water for the first time and you come from, you know, Iowa or Wisconsin or Boulder, that looks pretty good.
		But if you knew what came before that, you're seeing this assault against nature going on.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What is taking out the Great Barrier Reef?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		We're heating the planet.
		We're heating the water.
		It's bleaching.
		So there's a couple things.
		There's multiple insults.
		You have runoff from fertilizer and pesticides from agriculture.
		You have the heating of the water, these events.
		When I say it's dying, it's dying.
		It's not like, oh, it's going to come back.
		Once the coral is dead, that's it.
		It's not going to come back.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Does sunscreen play a part in that as well?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Probably not there.
		It's fairly remote.
		In Hawaii, it would, or the Caribbean.
		But it's pretty remote.
		You have to get out several miles at the Great Barrier Reef.
		The further north you go, the more isolated it is.
		We went the entire length of the Great Barrier Reef, and it didn't look.
		It got slightly better as you got north.
		But there's only a couple boats there.
		It's not like you have thousands and hundreds of thousands of tourists out on the beach.
		And the other thing is acidification.
		The burning of fossil fuels is acidifying the oceans.
		It's now about 30% more acidic than it was 50 years ago.
		And when you make, you know, there's more carbonic acid in the water, it makes it harder for the corals to survive.
		And basically you have these multiple insults going on at the same time.
		It's probably not just one thing.
		But there was a massive bleaching event two years in a row in the Great Barrier Reef.
		And so it's disappearing in our lifetime.
		But if you look at, we have the last coral berry reef in America is down in Florida.
		And they have...
		Semi-treated sewage coming out of these outfalls that they could swim through.
		I've been out there on these beaches.
		You could literally talk to somebody on the beach or scream to them on the beach.
		And they have this green water coming out of sewer pipes 200 meters away, 300 meters away.
		And so they're dumping semi-treated sewage on the last reef in America.
		This is going on all around the world.
		And, you know...
		What we do?
		I don't know.
		But this is the last generation that we have that can actually do something about it because we're seeing it disappear in our watch.
		And that's what I'm trying to do is try to not just create the awareness that something's going on, that we have to do something, but try to create action.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Now, when you say semi-treated sewage, what do you mean by that?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what they reported.
		So it smells like sewage.
		It smells like crap.
		But if you go to the website, it says it's just semi-treated.
		I don't know.
		They're not putting it through the aerators.
		They're not going through the whole system.
		But it smells like shit to me.
		You come out of the water and it's like, you know, we all stink.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You smell like shit.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		By the way, this is on the Hollywood-Fort Lauderdale border.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		How is that legal?
		I mean, this is not a third world country.
		How is the United States allowing them to pump semi-treated sewage?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		It's a very good question.
		You know, there's so many things to work on.
		I know the activists down there are working on this.
		They're just trying to get people to see it, to know that this is going on.
		And, you know, I think they close the beaches down when, you know, when the wind shifts and it starts to push it on shore.
		But, I mean, if you saw, if you were on the beach and you saw what was going on there, you wouldn't be sending your kids there.
		You wouldn't be going to Florida if you knew what was going on on that beach.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		We can make arguments about whether or not you should go to Florida all day long, and I'm with you 100%, but I just can't imagine that they would allow this.
		I mean, how much more would it cost to treat it versus semi-treat it?
		How much more would it cost to not do what they're doing?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I don't have an answer to that question.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		That's a good question.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's fucking insane.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And then that they close the beach when the water shifts, and the wind shifts and heads towards the shore?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		And people get sick, and they probably don't even know it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Jesus Christ.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, you know, when we were at one outfall, that's what they call an outfall, it's basically a sewer pipe.
		You know, nothing's happening, and all of a sudden you can start to hear this rumble, and then you see this green...
		Oh, God!
		And we're not talking like a little drain pipe, too.
		Like, literally, you could swim through it.
		Not stand in it, but it's big, like four feet, five feet tall.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Now, why are they allowing?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Does anybody have an argument for why that's money?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Money.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Because it costs money to treat sewage.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Jesus Christ, though.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's insane.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's a lot of things like that going on right now.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But it seems like someone should be held accountable for that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Like whatever cost benefit that they've decided is worth polluting the ocean by pumping sewage into it.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		It's a good question.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		When we did, now that I recall, this is like five years ago, we tried to get an interview with the key people down there, but try to, like, if you're going to talk to somebody about this, nobody wants to go on record to talk about it, because it's really bad for tourism, and it's not good for the political record.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Is there video of it?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Can we show video?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		You got something?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Jamie's got something here.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I need to see this.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		It's in Racing Extinction, the second film I did.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		This says it was impossible.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, look at this!
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Look at that!
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		There we go.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's so disgusting!
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		Four months ago, maybe?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Wow!
		It is just a gigantic pipe pumping green shit into the ocean.
		Why is it green, by the way?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		It's a picture.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		It could be the color under the water, too.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But you said it was green when you saw it as well, right?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's the treated.
		It's treated.
		It's much better that way.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Well, everything in the spectrum down there is a little bit blue or green.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's probably food coloring.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Look at that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Fuck.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What is that, fish?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, fish love it.
		Chewing on the sewage?
		They can eat crab.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Christ.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		And then the fishermen fish on it, too, when the outfall is going.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Jesus Christ.
		To catch fish that are eating shit?
		Look at that.
		That is insane.
		We're looking at this pipe, and it looks like a cloud of poison is being jettisoned out of this pipe and into the ocean.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		And the important part is if you came up, you would see people on the beach.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, God.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I mean, we're not talking about, like, you know, miles out at sea.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		We're talking about...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		How in America, I mean, I know Florida's barely America, but how in America is that possible?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		It's a really good question.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		We try to explore some of these issues, but trying to get somebody to talk on the record about this is really difficult.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Is there any other part of the country that has something like that?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Not that I know of.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Fucking Florida.
		Jesus Christ.
		I mean, of course it's Florida.
		I mean, is there a place that is so worthy of all the stereotypes like Florida is?
		It seems like every time you think you've had enough...
		Look at all these fish just swimming into the shit.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		That surface looks like it's boiling when all the water comes in.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, God.
		Shit boil.
		Shit boil in Florida.
		And look at the ground.
		It's all just covered with algae.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's kind of the point.
		What I'm saying is, you know...
		We always think somebody else should be doing something about this.
		And, you know, that's why we do films.
		It's not just to create the awareness and, you know, to try to get something done about it.
		You know, when we did The Cove, they were killing about 23,000 dolphins and porpoises every year for human consumption.
		And I think the last time, I think 2017 was the last reports of how many they killed.
		I think it was 1,610 total.
		So it was like a 93% drop.
		Since we did that film, because every time that Rick O'Berry, he's the guy that captured and trained the five female dolphins that collectively played the part of Flipper, every time that we talked in the Japanese press, we try to use the word Mercury, because that's their Achilles heel.
		If you talk to the Japanese, the people from the IWC, of course, they're out of that now.
		They've quit the IWC. They'd say, well, what about cows, pigs, and chickens?
		They're pretty sentient, intelligent, too.
		And we say, well, but the Mercury.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Now, how many people are eating dolphin meat?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Less.
		I think less because of the film.
		When we were there, they were feeding it to school kids.
		And the school children, it's the young mind, like infants or prenatal, that has the most deleterious effects of mercury because your neurons are just developing.
		And they had hatched a scheme for school lunch programs all over America.
		And in Japan, unlike in America, you have to eat everything on your plate.
		So it's almost like you were force-fed to poison.
		And because of the film, that stopped.
		So, I mean, films can be really powerful, you know, to...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's amazing.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That film is so disturbing, man.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, it is.
		And, you know, when Mark Monroe, the writer, he came up with the name The Cove, I said, it sounds like a horror film.
		He goes, well, it is.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I mean, look, if we write, and these are water people, I mean, essentially, as intelligent, if not more.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you were saying that the complexity of their brains is...
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		They have more density for neurons, like the folds of the brains.
		If you did a slice of a brain, it looks like a fjord, right?
		And there's more convolutions with a dolphin.
		There's more surface area for neurons.
		And of course, the more neurons you have, the more connections you're making.
		And they actually have a...
		God, there's a...
		Spindle neurons that they have for developing complex emotions.
		If you look at orcas, they're really tight-knit communities.
		A male orca will spend most of its life, not more than a body length away from its mother the entire time until it goes away to do what it does.
		These animals are really social, and they're communicating at levels that, like you said, we don't even know what they're saying.
		The average person can hear from 50 hertz to 20,000 kilohertz, and I think they can communicate up to 200,000.
		So there's a whole bandwidth, like an order of magnitude more bandwidth that they're actually communicating with.
		And we hear like a little squeak, like...
		But if you slow it down and break it down, there's actually, you know, there's more patterns in there than we can sense.
		What's interesting about whales, blue whales, blue whales are really solitary creatures.
		They're, you know, they're not gregarious like dolphins.
		They don't usually hang out in big, you know, groups.
		But down in the Southern Ocean, it was confounding people.
		Like, how do they find the krill bloom that happens in a different area, you know, hundreds or thousands of miles apart?
		How do they, you know, they all find it?
		And one of the researchers, Roger Payne, came up with this idea, and it was through the work with the Navy, that there's something called the Deep Ocean Channel.
		And it's basically between the surface of the water and the thermal layer that fluctuates depending on where you're at in the column, let's say 500 feet.
		They basically use their voice, which is one of the loudest voices in the animal kingdom.
		It's so loud, but it's infrasound, you can't hear it.
		And they'll use it.
		It almost gets propagated like the internet.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Through that layer.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		So it's bouncing up, and imagine that it's bouncing up to the surface and down to this cold layer, and it can go for literally thousands of miles.
		So it's called reciprocal altruism.
		The theory is that when one finds it, they start singing, and it notifies the rest of the group that this is where the krill bloom is, and then they can all survive.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Holy shit.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		There's a friend of mine, Chris Clark, Dr. Chris Clark from over in Cornell University.
		He was...
		It was a string of pearl hydrophones that the Navy uses called Sosis in the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, and it was designed to listen for Russian submarines back in the Cold War.
		But they opened it up to some researchers, and Chris was one of the first ones to, you know, if you're a researcher listening to whales, you go out in your little boat and you drop a hydrophone in, and you can usually think, oh, that's amazing.
		Look, you can hear sounds everywhere.
		Everything is basically singing down there from crackling shrimp up to blue whales.
		And, you know, so you have this impression that, man, I just, you know, dropped in on this conversation.
		I don't know what's being said, but like, that feels pretty special.
		Now he goes to Sosis, and they have like a...
		Back then it was like an underground bunker full of people with three screens back before anybody had three screens and everybody's listening for submarines.
		And he sees that on a board it's lit up in the whole world.
		He's seeing wherever the blue whales are singing or all these whales, it's lit up like a Christmas tree.
		And what the Navy was trying to do is to filter through the voices of what they called the biologicals to pinpoint The submarines.
		But he was like, oh my god, this is like the holy grail for listening to whales because they have – they can tell what's going on on an ocean ecosystem level.
		When he could just – you know, you imagine one guy in a boat out there trying to listen.
		Now he can all of a sudden has all this incredible data.
		And he could track animals.
		These animals, like blue whales, they'll ping, and they can basically send out a wave, and they can see thousands of miles away with their extra senses.
		Wow.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Jesus, that's incredible.
		Just imagine that ability to pick up all those extra patterns that we don't even hear.
		So we don't even understand exactly what kind of data they're getting from each other.
		And we don't know what it means either.
		So we just know there's something, right?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there's a friend of mine.
		I don't even know if you want to talk.
		His name is Britt Salvatelli.
		He's working with another friend of his, AZA, to try to use AI to figure out what animals are saying.
		I know he's talked about it before with the press, so I think it's okay if I mention it.
		I've been sending them to people like Roger Payne and Chris Clark, these other researchers I know, because they have these huge databases.
		And they're trying to use AI to see if they can figure out, using computers, what these animals are saying.
		And I think that's the holy grail for letting us care about these animals.
		If we know what they're saying, I think that changes the game.
		Roger Payne, it's in the code, but he's the guy that Well, he and his wife found out that these animals, like humpback whales, are singing.
		You know, these strange, beautiful sounds.
		I don't know, do you want Jamie to pull up songs of the humpback whale?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we'll find something to play.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		That these animals were actually singing.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		You know, it was actually his wife, Katie Payne, that figured it out, and he wrote up the paper with another guy.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Like joyously singing.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, like, you know, she...
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		When a humpback wills...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		We have an issue with playing it?
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's actually been sold, so it's copywritten.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		A lot of times if we do that, we'll get pulled off of YouTube.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
unidentified		Okay.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, because somebody owns that, which is hilarious, right?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They own the sound of nature, which is, like, what?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		You can probably, you know, if you go onto the website of the Cornell Ornithology Lab, I think there probably is some stuff that you can play with that's not copyrighted.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Excuse me.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		Oh, look, it's tough.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		It's going to be real tough, though, because somebody may own it that may not know that somebody else owns it.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		An agent for the whale.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		An agent for the whale.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Some CAA guy.
unidentified		Hey, we want to get paid, you fucks!
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Are you aware of what's going on with the resident orca pod outside of Seattle?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, which is a very strange situation where the salmon have dwindled radically.
		And this resident pod only eats salmon.
		They only eat, what is it, Chinook?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Chinook.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So they only eat Chinook salmon.
		And so the ones that migrate, the migratory orcas are fine because they eat marine mammals.
		They eat mostly seals.
		These poor resident ones do not want to eat anything other than salmon, and so they're literally starving to death, and they're trying to figure out ways to feed them.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no, I was working on that story for the last year or so on a different aspect of it.
		I was co-directing a film.
		I was doing the Russia portion.
		The Russians had illegally caught 101 cetaceans.
		It was about 87, roughly, belugas and about 11 orcas illegally for the Chinese market.
		I was covering that part of it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Was that the Chinese market of marine shows?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		The Cove and Blackfish in particular have been really effective about shutting down in a massive way the amount of people going to the shows.
		But in China they haven't got the message.
		So I think there's 25 new dolphin parks opening up in China alone this year.
		So it's like whack-a-mole.
		And the Russians were providing...
		And that story...
		When I was in Russia...
		This is like one of those amazing situations.
		Putin, on a State of the Union address, announced that they were going to release the whales from the whale jail that were caught over in eastern Russia.
		So we ran over to Vladivostok and covered that portion of the story.
		But to answer your question, there's another co-director that was working on the northwest, and the Lummi Indians were going out to feed from their stock of A farm-raised salmon, they were feeding the animals, but that's not sustainable because they move around.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You can't find them sometimes.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		The solution seems to be to get rid of a lot of the dams.
		It's kind of an unpopular position with some people, but they're not efficient anymore.
		They're holding up, the whole ecosystems are being degraded because of that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, one of them that they initially, when they set it up, they didn't even realize what they were doing.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		This was in the 1930s or something like that, where they You know, they had hundreds of thousands of salmon just coming to this wall and not understanding what the fuck's going on and dying there.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		There's a friend of mine, I'm a co-director in a film about plastics with Josh Murphy, did a film called Artificial, and it's about just this, you know, the craziness of We're good to go.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What is this, Jeremy?
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		This is Pattern Radio.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		So this is an AI. I'll reset the website, but it says that you can explore yourself to find humpback whale songs and make your own discoveries.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Use AI to explore thousands of hours of humpback whale songs and make your own discoveries.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So they'll play some of it?
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there's a lot to dig through here, but it's a really cool-looking site.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		It's gonna be the one to go check it out.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What's that heavy-duty power and over to the left Jamie?
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		This thing?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		No, to the left.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		Oh, here.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Whoa.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Really?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What about those long bars right next to it?
		Yeah.
		No, over to the right.
		No, no.
		The long ones.
		The long ones.
		Like, just to the right of that image.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		Wow.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		If that was coming out of space, you'd be like, what the hell?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we'd be like, we have to go immediately.
		I've often said that about Bigfoot, that everyone cares.
		Shut it off.
		People are so interested in finding Bigfoot, but if you found Bigfoot, what would it be?
		It would be basically a big chimpanzee or something, right?
		Another big primate.
		We already know about primates.
		They're amazing.
		We know about them now.
		But if you found, if an orca wasn't real, and someone said, hey, there's this thing, it's as smart as people, maybe smarter, it lives in the ocean, but it breathes air, and it swims around in these incredible pods, and they have really tight communities, they communicate with each other with this language, that we have had our best linguists try to decipher, we have no idea what the fuck they're saying.
		You know, you'd be like, what kind of animal is that?
		It would be a crazy mythical creature.
		You know, like the creature from the Black Lagoon or the Loch Ness Monster or something.
		It would be like some incredible thing.
		If you ever found one, people would be freaking out.
		But we get so used to things being real.
		And I think we're just used to them.
		And unfortunately, because of things like Free Willy and going to see Sea World shows where they're doing flips for fish and everybody's clapping, people have got it in their head that this is just the thing.
		It's a normal thing.
		But what they are is one of the most fantastic creatures that the world has ever known in all of the billions of years of life on this planet.
		There's two things that are mind-blowers in terms of their intelligence.
		One of them is us.
		The other one is them.
		All the marine mammals, whether it's whales, dolphins.
		I mean, whales are amazing because of their size, but whales, dolphins, and orcas.
		And obviously, orcas are cousins of whales.
		But those things are...
		They're some of the most spectacular creatures that the biodiversity of the earth has ever created.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		When you're watching a dolphin show, you're watching a spectacle of dominance.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You're watching slaves.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Listen, this is a nice room.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		We have plenty of water, but if we needed food and we had to do backflips for it after a couple of weeks, you and I would be doing it.
unidentified		Exactly.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And that's what it is.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		On this film I was working on, we uncovered some...
		Some information at SeaWorld, and this is the trainers talking to management about an animal that's not performing well.
		And then they get the vets involved.
		And the vets say, have you tried caloric deprivation?
		So there's actually emails.
		They'll never tell you that they're starving an animal to get it to do tricks, but there's emails now.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The vet.
		The doctor.
		Imagine that if you went to a university and like, his grades are down.
		What should we do?
		Starve him.
		Can you imagine if that was your kid?
		Dad, they don't want to give me any food because I'm doing poorly in history.
		Like, what?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Or, you know, to perform better with the sports, I guess, would be a better analogy.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Jesus Christ.
		I mean, that's essentially what they do with the Cuban Olympic wrestling program.
		Yoel Romero, who was one of the top UFC fighters, came out of that Cuban wrestling program, and he said that the elite athletes get to eat three times a day, but the people that are under them get to eat twice a day.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		And they set up this insane competition so that they're hunted.
		So that the elite athletes are hunted by the guys coming up.
		They want to make sure that, you know, they only develop the best of the best.
		You know, and he has this crazy Cuban accent with his broken English.
unidentified		He's like, he turned you into a machine!
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's how he talks.
		And he's just an unbelievable freak athlete.
		And part of why he's so spectacular is because he came up through this ruthless program.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's horrible.
		But the results are pretty spectacular.
		It's, you know, it's just, to me, I mean, I have a very close relationship with a guy named Phil Demers, who has been involved in a decades-long lawsuit with Marineland in Canada.
		He was a walrus trainer.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I think I know his story.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And he, they, walrus bond was, With humans when they're babies, and he bonded with this walrus named Smooshy.
		And I believe she's the only one that's alive.
		Marineland has a horrible record of animal rights.
		I mean, the way Phil puts it, he goes, it makes SeaWorld look like paradise for dolphins and orcas.
		And he was an orca trainer there too and a dolphin trainer and you know he worked with these people over there and just I mean horrific stories of what it's like and to see these animals just living in hell just tortured and then they have no chance to ever find their family again they were they were pulled from their mother when they're a baby and now here they are you know 15 years old stuck in a swimming pool developing ulcers their their dorsal fin collapsing collapses and atrophies I mean It's
		so crazy that it's still legal.
		Like that after Blackfish, SeaWorld didn't just get shut down by the government.
		And that people didn't just boycott them en masse.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		In a TED talk I have, I show the stock price of...
		I was at Sundance for the premiere of Blackfish.
		And I went down and talked to the people that made the film afterwards, and I said, we're going to be the best thing that ever happened to you.
		Because at that point, I think we had like 650,000 followers.
		And then we helped organize, like getting musicians to stop performing there.
		And we sent a copy of Blackfish in the Cove to all the 10 major, everybody that sat at the board of directors that had Backed SeaWorld.
		Everybody that sat on the board got a copy of that film.
		I can't remember.
		I guess it was their earnings came out that quarter.
		Their stock value just fell down from 32 to 16. They lost a billion dollars in value almost overnight.
		But now it's back up.
		It's back up in the 20s, I think.
		Really?
		So, you know, they're doing other things, too.
		They're trying to, you know, do rides and, you know, do what the other theme parks are doing and try to get away from that business.
		But it's still happening.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It should be illegal.
		I mean, it's really simple.
		It should be illegal.
		Once you look at the data, what we understand about their intelligence, what we understand about the way they've captured these things and taken them...
		From their families and would they understand the close-knit or the nature of these orcopods the fact that it's not illegal.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		It's just it's stunning Yeah, well, they've bred a lot of theirs now in captivity.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Which is even more fucked up.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		I mean, they're not even from the – if you know how they learn, and now they're suddenly thrown into these disparate groups where you have some that are wild, some come from different – imagine these populations of the transients and the residents.
		They don't speak the same language.
		And then you pull the mothers away, so there's really no – What do they do when they don't speak the same language?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Do they try to communicate and just run into it?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		They beat up each other.
		There's all sorts of evidence that we have had people go in there.
		Because there's a lawsuit going on right now.
		And so we've gone in and photographed for the people with the lawsuit.
		And you look and they're raked.
		The dolphins chew on the iron bars on the side or on the sides of the pool.
		A lot of their teeth are just sawed off because they're getting infected.
		Let's go on to something else.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What can you go on to?
		I really think it's like a human rights issue.
		But it's a human rights issue for water people.
		If we could really, like you said, if we could decipher what they were saying and then break it down to a very clear language.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		That would certainly help with everything.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		If we knew what was being said.
		Because, you know, we did this film called Racing Extinction, and the working title was called The Singing Planet, because just about everything is singing.
		We just haven't been listening.
		Everything from a mouse up to a blue whale has a song.
		I mean, technically it's a song.
		But we don't see it as that.
		We're looking at it only through our own eyes.
		And that was part of the objective of that film was to try to get people to understand like, hey, there's all these other life forms out there.
		They're disappearing before we have a chance to even know what they're up to.
		And we're the last generation that can fix it.
		So, you know, we're going through a mass extinction right now.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The sixth.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the Anthropocene.
		And, you know, when I started, you know, I did four stories for National Geographic on dinosaurs, on the Mesozoic, the midlife of the planet.
		A lot of friends of mine were paleontologists.
		And Michael Novacek, the head provost of the American Museum of Natural History.
		I was in the Gobi Desert with him.
		You know, you go around to these beautiful landscapes where you see dinosaurs laid out, you know, basically from the tip of the nose to the tip of the tail like you don't see anywhere else in the world.
		Like they almost got exterminated by something in one go.
		And he had told me that, well, we're going through a mass extinction right now.
		And I was like, what?
		He said, oh yeah, mankind is responsible for the sixth mass extinction.
		That's the first time I heard about it about 15 years ago.
		And I said, what are the issues?
		He said, well, the drivers are habitat destruction for agriculture.
		Pollution, invasive species, and overconsumption.
		But the biggest one by far is habitat destruction, the raising of crops for animals that we in turn eat.
		So, you know, if you look at what's going on in Africa, you know, poaching's a big, huge problem, but a bigger problem is there, you know, a lot of that land now is being, and what's going on in the Amazon as well, it's being torn up for getting feed for cattle, for animals.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Did they find out what was causing those fires in the Amazon?
		Were they set?
		Do they know?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, those are all illegal fires for illegal crops, for soybean corn to feed cattle.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So they burned down the jungle so that they could wipe everything out.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		This has been proven?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Oh yeah.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		They do the same thing in Indonesia, but for palm oil.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And the thing about Brazil is Bolsonaro apparently has approved this kind of behavior, right?
		Is that what's going on down there?
		To prop up business.
		There was an image in the New York Times of Sao Paulo and people walking through during the day and the sky was like it was dark out.
		Just from the clouds of smoke, from the burning of the Amazon, from the millions of acres.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and these are one of the most biodiverse hotspots on the planet, and we're burning them down for...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, not only that, not just biodiverse, but so unknown.
		I mean, this is where...
		A great majority of some of the greatest pharmaceutical drugs ever invented, their origins have come from the rainforest.
		People have found various compounds and things inside the rainforest that have been used for a variety of different methods.
		There's all sorts of bugs in there that we don't understand.
		Look at that.
		There's the image.
		How insane is that?
		I mean, if you've never been to Sao Paulo, Sao Paulo was a huge city.
		I mean, it rivals like New York City.
		It's massive.
		And the sky was literally black with smoke.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		That's daytime?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, insane.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, have you ever experienced wildfires out here in California?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Oh yeah, yeah.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Boy, I mean...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's pretty crazy.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		The last four or five, well, what was the last month?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Do you live over here?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I live in Sausalito, just north of the bridge.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, then you guys, the Northern California one, that one, what was that, what was the area that got hit last year?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Oh, the Kincaid Fire, just recently.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That was enormous.
		Yes.
		And then there was the one- Paradise Fire.
		The Paradise Fire.
		That was the one I was thinking was the largest, I think, in California history.
		I mean, these goddamn fires.
		When they happen, it's a very stunning and sobering reminder of the forces of nature.
		And when you're in this situation like we're in right now, where you have all this dry ground and all these dry leaves and one thing catches and then the wind brings it down.
		It's terrifying.
		But my point was that I've been very, very close to some of these fires.
		We've been evacuated a few times.
		And when it's hitting and the sky is just gray with smoke and the hills are on fire, it's a very strange, strange feeling.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, like climate change is real and it's happening now and it's close.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's about as real as it can ever get.
		I mean, the people who are in denial of it at this point, I mean, how much longer can you hold this opinion?
		And what is keeping you?
		What is keeping you on this?
		It's a hoax track.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		You know, I travel all over the world.
		We're the only country that doesn't get it.
		You know, we might have the illusion that it's half the world that doesn't get it, but over in Europe and Asia, they all understand it.
		It's not a mystery over there.
		It's only here.
		And I think, you know, it's self-interest, greed.
		You know, I think people are, you know...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		There's also a right-wing ideology.
		There's something that happens.
		There's certain opinions that people adopt.
		They adopt this conglomeration of opinions if you are in the right or if you're in the left.
		And one of them in the right is to deny the impact of certain environmental factors and climate change and things along those lines.
		And it's like to join this group, you have to subscribe to a certain platform or a certain system of ideas.
		And that's one of them.
		One of them is that climate change is no big deal.
		It's just a hoax.
		Or people are making out...
		I mean, I see it on Twitter all the time, where someone will point something out, like, yeah, how's that climate change working out for you?
		Just because, like, it's really cold in some place one day.
		I don't think you understand what this is.
		That's actually part of it.
		Have it being extraordinarily cold.
		The whole thing's in chaos.
		All the systems are out of whack.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no, whole ecosystems.
		I went out to the beach this morning and it probably looked the way it did 50,000 years ago out there.
		But you go into the water, it's a whole different story.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, a couple degrees warmer fucks everything up.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's all you need.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's really hard for us to understand.
		Because some days it's 76, and the other days it's 52. And the next day it's 80. It seems normal for us.
		There's variability.
		But you don't look at the overall mean.
		If you look at the overall mean, you see that rise.
		Just a couple degrees of temperature could change everything.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so I mean, this is what keeps me up at night.
		It's like, you know, if you know this is going on, what do you do about it?
		So that, you know, you can look at yourself when you're on your deathbed and say, I did everything I could to make a difference.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, the fish one's a huge one, right?
		And the ocean, the pollution of the ocean is a huge one because it seems like it's nobody's, right?
		It seems like it's everybody's, but it's nobody's.
		Whereas, like, the land, if someone is doing something on the land...
		Could you imagine that Florida, if they were just pumping that shit into West Palm Beach, if there's just a big tube that goes into the sky and just sprays all over West Palm Beach, people would be like, what the fuck is this?
		And then they would have to act.
		They have to say, you can't do that.
		But because it's getting pumped into the ocean, it seems like it's okay.
		It's not ours.
		It's just the ocean.
		Well, it's unfortunate.
		I've got to go to work, man.
		I don't have time for this.
		I'm behind on my car payments.
		I'm doing overtime tonight.
		Most people are concerned with so many different things that they don't have time to think about the massive overfishing and pollution of the ocean.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's the trick.
		As a filmmaker, how do you make a story like that so that people actually want to see it?
		So they don't feel like it's medicine.
		They don't feel like, okay, I've got to go watch this.
unidentified		Right, medicine.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's a good way of putting it.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		And The Cove, for instance, it feels like a thriller.
		It doesn't feel like a lecture on what we're doing to dolphins.
		It's sort of set up like a mystery.
		The first line of the film was me saying, I just want to say we try to do the story legally.
		I still can't go back to Japan.
		Really?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What happens if you go back?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I won't come back out.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They'll arrest you?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I'm told that there's arrest warrants out for me.
		For what?
		Conspiracy to disrupt commerce, trespassing.
		Wow.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Disrupt commerce.
		All that dolphin commerce.
		Fuck you.
		Holy shit.
		Conspiracy to disrupt commerce.
		How do you define disrupting commerce?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		However they want, I guess.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Did you have parameters that you were supposed to operate under while you were over there and you went outside of them?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		They gave us a map.
		It's in the film.
		They gave us a map and they told us this is where we're not supposed to go.
		As my friend Charles Hamilton said, that became our template of where we needed to go.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Have you seen some of the Sea Shepherd work where they've caught these Japanese scientific research boats that are really just killing whales?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		And they're out of the Southern Ocean now.
		This is last year they announced that they were going to get out of there and now they're only killing whales around their own territorial waters.
		So, in a way, it's a big victory.
		You know, Paul's a good friend, Paul Watson.
		He just wrote me a couple hours before I came here.
		Yeah, he wanted like a big projector.
		You ever saw a racing extinction?
unidentified		No.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		We did, you know, to alert the world that we needed to get on this, we lit up the Empire State Building with endangered species.
		And it was like a huge event.
		We had like, I think, 939 million media views in four days.
		Top trending story on Facebook and Twitter for like four days worldwide.
		Just to get, you know, we did something really strange like that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		How'd you do that?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		With a projector?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		With 50 projectors, 50 IMAX-sized projectors all mounted on the building that was on 31st Street.
		And this is all sanctioned.
		We spent four years getting permission to do it.
		And we finally did it.
		Here it is right here.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Jamie's got a video of it.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you've got to slow that down, though.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's just what's on YouTube.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, on YouTube, they speed it up?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		How long did this last for?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Oh, we did it for three hours, but there's like two 10-minute shows, 15-minute shows.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Was there a crowd of people that watched it?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
		It was like the Easter parade on Fifth Avenue.
		What was funny is like the producer and the distributor said, oh, it's going to be too expensive.
		Nobody will be there in the summertime in New York.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They always say that.
		There's fucking 100 million people in New York.
		I go there in the summertime, it's packed with people.
		Nothing happens in the summer in New York.
		I was doing a show down there, and I'm like, wow, this is really good.
		I mean, it's the summer in New York.
		How are you selling so many tickets?
		I'm like, have you looked around?
		They have this weird attitude that nothing happens in New York in the summer.
		I think it's like carried over from the 30s when there was no air conditioning.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so we had, you know, we thought we couldn't get any more attention on that subject.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		How crazy is that though?
		The summer in New York.
		Everybody's out.
		Why wouldn't they see it?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		They said, well, the important people, they said, are going to be at the Hamptons or they're going to be overseas.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, God.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Or overseas.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
		The important people.
		Did they really say that to you?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		They said that.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		And they also said the press wouldn't show up because at 930 at night, nobody could afford overtime.
unidentified		Oh.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		But, you know, it looked like the Easter parade on Fifth Avenue.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, everybody was wrong.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		And then we thought, okay, that's it.
		We can't get any more attention than that than the Pope called.
		The Pope wanted us to project on the Vatican during COP21. Whoa.
		And then we had, I think, four and a half billion media views.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You should have taken all of the extinct animal footage and replaced it with child abuse footage.
		Imagine that.
		All of the cases of all the pedophile priests of all, I mean...
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's a lot of issues.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, there is.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I'm concerned with the ecosystems.
unidentified		I understand.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		One step at a time.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That dirty place.
		Vatican's a strange place.
		Like, you walk around there, you go, where did you get all this money?
		Like, what did you guys, you guys don't even sell anything.
		You know, they have fucking billions of dollars in art and spectacular architecture and everywhere you go the spoils of riches and you're like, where do you get this from?
		It's an amazing place to visit, just historically, just to see what it's like.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		And in Venice right now, if you go to the Doge Palace, if you look at the columns on that, those are all different.
		What they did is they pilfered Persia for that.
		You had to bring it back when you were trading the 1700s, 1600s.
		You had to bring back Stuff you stole.
		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I was just there.
		I was just in Venice.
		And now, do you know what's going on right now?
		They have the worst flooding they've had in 50 years.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I saw the Gritty Palace.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I stayed there at the Gritty Palace.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's where we were.
unidentified		The lobby had like four feet of water in the lobby.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Really?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Holy shit.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Four feet of water in the fucking lobby?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Mm-hmm.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So what is causing that?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a combination of this time of year, the tides and the storms, but also, you know, the seas are raising.
		You know, you have just a couple inches of ocean raising.
		You can imagine there's more water out there, and it gets pushed to shore.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So how do you stay in the Gritty Palace when the floor is water?
unidentified		Yeah.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I don't think you do stay.
		I think that's the least of their problems right now.
		When I lived in Boulder, I wasn't in a flood zone.
		I lived at 4th and Juniper.
		Like I said, right against the foothills.
		It wasn't on a flood map, but we had a 2,000-year flood, and there was furniture floating.
		I had furniture floating up against the ceiling of my place.
		I got brought out by climate change.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Look at that.
		Wow.
		That's how bad the flooding is.
		Yeah, that's where we stayed over the summer.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's gorgeous.
		But weird.
		But it's like a really beautiful prostitute.
		Like, do you have to do this?
		Because like, look at all that shit floating by.
		That's crazy how high the water level is.
		That's a restaurant.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Wow, it's all underwater.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Is that outside the Gritty Palace?
unidentified		No.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		It's around the corner.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's what it looks like, yeah.
		The cruise ships would pull up, and then you would see the amount of people that get out, and then the streets would be flooded.
		And all the people that lived there would be like, this all just started happening like a decade ago, or the cruise ships were allowed to pull right up.
		And the week they were there, they said they had two accidents.
		With cruise ships hitting docks.
		And we played a video of one of them.
		It's fucking crazy.
		You see this gigantic boat.
		And it's just coming in.
		You know it's going to hit the dock.
		And you know it's going to hit this boat in front of it.
		And everybody's running to get out of the way.
		And you see this mountain.
		It's a mountain that's floating.
		A floating mountain that has no ability to maneuver correctly.
		Look at the size of that goddamn thing.
		I mean, that is so much bigger than any of the buildings there.
		And that thing's floating in.
		And banging into the walls.
		Look at the size of that.
		Look at the size of that.
		That is so insane.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		And we wonder why we're screwed.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That thing has nine floors.
		That is so crazy.
		Look at that.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there's probably several thousand people, right?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, for sure.
		Many thousand.
		And, you know, don't they just dump their waste right into the ocean?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		They did in the past.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I don't know if they do it now.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What do they do now?
		Put it in a baggie?
		Well, that's one of the things they found in LA. I'm sure you're aware of this.
		They did a satellite overview, like an image of methane.
		They're trying to find out where's the greenhouse gases, where's the biggest polluters.
		It turns out it was landfills.
		Landfill is a huge issue.
		Is that the greenhouse gas thing, the methane leak?
unidentified		Right.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		This idea that you're going to just put it in the ground.
		Hey, that doesn't work.
		It comes out of the ground.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		I told you we had a Tesla that we had retrofitted for racing extinction that had a FLIR camera, the same camera that you use to see methane.
		It sees a spectrum.
		It's not heat, but it can see methane.
		You can put another filter in it so you can see carbon dioxide.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		And so we had, you know, we went around the streets of LA and we got onto the tarmac.
		And, you know, the carbon dioxide is a little bit of the boogeyman.
		You can't see it.
		But with this camera, you can see it.
		And it's pretty astounding when you can, you know, just, you know, right now if you put it on us, you'd look like we're smoking.
		But when you show it on the streets of LA, it's like everything's disgorging.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And there's not enough plants to absorb it.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you can't absorb it that quickly.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But that's one of the beautiful things about when you go to the woods.
		There's something about when you're in nature and you're in the forest where, you know, you like specifically like the Pacific Northwest, which has these incredibly dense forests.
		The air just has a different quality to it.
		I mean, it's just this rich, oxygenated air.
		Because, you know, you're just around all these trees and plants.
		There's a different feel to it.
		You just don't get here.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		No.
		L.A. I was here last week.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's rough, bro.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		It is.
unidentified		It's rough.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Jamie and I have been planning our escape.
		We don't know what to do, though.
		We're trying to figure it out somewhere.
		I think you can only stay here a little while longer.
		I came here in 1994, and there was maybe 30% of the traffic that there is now.
		And I'm not exaggerating.
		Maybe 40%.
		Let's get crazy.
		But now, I can come home from the comedy store at 11 o'clock at night and be stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic.
		Just bumper-to-bumper.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I worked for the LA Times back in the 1970s, and I remember at 3 in the morning, without an accident on the road, there could be traffic backed up.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, without an accident.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		And I don't, you know, back then, I mean, I'm probably, I don't know, how old are you?
		52. Yeah, so I'm like, I got a little bit more than 10 years on you, but I remember that this valley was always, for the first month I worked at the LA Times, the valley was just, you couldn't see anything.
		And then one day it cleared up, and in the rearview mirror, I was living north of town in Glendale, and in the rearview mirror I saw Whitecap Mountains, and I thought, where the hell did they come from?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Right!
unidentified		Right!
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that scared me because I thought...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you can see that from Woodland Hills.
		From Woodland Hills on a rainy day when the rain comes in and washes it all away.
		Like, what the fuck is this?
		There's mountains right there?
		Like, you don't see literally the pollution so dense it hides mountains.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Still?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yes!
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		All the time!
		Because today is a beautiful day.
		It's really clear.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Today is a beautiful day.
		You get lucky.
		What really helps us is when the wind blows.
		When the wind blows, it clears everything out.
		You can get to a high peak.
		There's an area where I trail run.
		You get to this really high peak and you can look out at the top and pause.
		And some days you don't see jack shit.
		You just see gray.
		And then some days after it rains, you're like, there's fucking mountains out here.
		I want to take a picture of this stark contrast.
		You know, matter of fact, I'm going to run not tomorrow but the next day.
		When I get up there, I'm going to take a photo and I'm going to try to take a few photos and try to catch it when it rains because it's supposed to rain sometime this week and so get a difference between what it is normally versus what it is when it rains.
		Because the difference is it's stunning and it's all being hid by pollution and we just have gotten accustomed to it.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, I mean, catalytic converters helped a lot.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What also is helping a lot is this conversion to electric cars and I really hope people continue down that path, you know, especially I mean, they're getting better at figuring out how to charge them and better at battery capacity.
		And they're better to drive.
		I mean, we were talking about Teslas.
		I mean, I have that Model S. I love that thing.
		I mean, it's amazing.
		It's just an amazing car.
		And I'm an automobile enthusiast.
		I love cars.
		You don't lose anything with that.
		I mean, it's more fun than any other automatic car I've ever driven.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no.
		I mean, I had one too for a while, but I told you I had the electroluminescent paint job and the projector.
		It was a nice one.
		But I had one of the first electric cars in Colorado back in like 2007. I only knew of like two other ones.
		And I had 120 solar panels on my roof, so I didn't pay for electricity.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Really?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, the roof of your house.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the roof of my house.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Did you see that documentary, Who Killed the Electric Car?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, Chris Payne.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		He's a good friend.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Very interesting, right?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and Revenge of the Electric Car.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		It was his follow-up to it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I didn't see that.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's a good one.
		I think it's better than the first one, actually.
		But, you know, I would tell my neighbors, like, hey, I don't pay for electricity.
		My license plate said VUS. It stood for Vehicle Using Sun.
		It was the opposite of an SUV. Yeah.
		I mean, I got checks from the electric company.
		I didn't have bills.
		I had checks.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Because you were contributing to the grid.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so we had net metering.
		And I thought I just discovered something.
		It was just incredible.
		But everybody said...
		I was doing it just to prove that you could do it back then.
		And neighbors would say, but how much does it cost?
		And it's like, well, we should all be...
		You have to be...
		People have to be early adopters before you can get it to scale.
		So I was an early adopter, but I think even with everything that we know is going on, that people are still saying they're not going to switch over until it's cheaper.
		It's a little bit better and it's cheaper.
		And Elon, I think he's got the right idea to make it a lot better and eventually it's going to be cheaper.
		I mean, the Model S is a great car, but the The Model 3 is sounding like crazy, and it's a fantastic car as well.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That Model 3 is preposterous.
		I have a Porsche 911 GT3, and it's a pretty fast car.
		This guy humiliated me the other day.
		I wasn't trying to race him, but I think he was trying to prove a point.
		We were at a red light, and the light turned green, and he shot ahead of me and got onto the highway so fast, I was laughing.
		I was like, look, I wasn't trying to race the guy, but if I was, it would have been a bloodbath.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		You said you keep yours on ludicrous mode all the time.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, mine?
		Yeah, my Model S? Yeah, I do.
		I keep it on ludicrous mode.
		But you don't have to drive it ludicrous.
		It's on ludicrous mode.
		You could drive it normal, but anytime you want it, just dump on the accelerator.
		It just, whoa!
		It literally feels like it's violating some sort of laws of physics.
		Like it just, it does something with time.
		You know, like you're not supposed to be able to get there that quick.
		You have a thing in your mind when you're driving a car.
		Well, if I want to get in front of that car, it's going to take X amount of seconds.
		Even if I really accelerate, it'll take some time before I can get up, before I can change lanes.
		With that thing, it's just...
		You just go.
		And people that have never been in one before, I take them for a drive in the Tesla, and they grip the seat and they're like, what the fuck?
		Everybody says the same thing.
		Like, what the...
		Or holy shit.
		Those are the two things they say.
		Because it doesn't seem like it should be able to do that.
		It looks like a sedan.
		It's like a regular car.
		I've got an old muscle car.
		I've got a couple old cars that look fast.
		I'm like, that car, that regular sedan-looking car, five times faster than anything here.
		And zero emissions.
		But, you know, we're in this transitionary period, and I think the future is pretty bright for that stuff.
		Mustang, Ford just released a concept of this new vehicle that they're releasing very soon.
		It's like a Mustang crossover e-car.
		It's beautiful.
		It's really cool looking.
		It looks like a larger Mustang, like a taller Mustang, but it's all electric.
		And Elon praised it today that Ford is going out on a limb and making something like that.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Oh, cool.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You know, and then Porsche is releasing their version.
		It's called a Taycan.
		And that's, I think that's how you say it.
		It's a beautiful looking, sleek looking electric car.
		So, we're moving in that direction.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		I mean, there's a great, Tony Saba, the futurist, he shows a picture of the 1900 Easter parade in New York City.
		And it's all horses.
		Looking down from a building.
		I don't know if you find it, Jamie.
		1905 or 1900 Easter Parade.
		And it's like, there's one car.
		And then 13 years later, it's like, find the horse.
		And these transitions, they take about 10, 12 years.
		12 years ago, we were punching the number two key on our flip phone six times to text a capital C. And I think we're going to be doing the same thing with...
		You know, with the transition with food.
		I think it's going to be going that way.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that they're going to be – do you have hope for all this lab-created meat?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What do you think about – I mean, I know there's some process that I don't totally understand where they're able to make actual biological, like, bison meat.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I'm doing a film series right now called Food 2.0 and I had dinner on Saturday night two nights ago with Uma, the guy that founded Memphis Meats.
		And I have the same sort of ickiness about going that direction.
		But he showed me these pictures on his phone of this chicken breast that he's making.
		And, you know, I stopped eating meat about 10 years ago, but I thought it didn't look bad.
		You know, it looked, he had like, it chopped, you know, so that it was grilled and it thought, you know, I have this sort of revulsion against it myself because I've, you know, got myself off of it.
		But I looked at that and I thought, you know what, that looks really edible.
		It looks good.
		Somebody that could eat meat You know, that would be appetizing.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it seems like the science...
		Whatever it is, right?
		It's tissue.
		And whatever that tissue is, it's composed of a bunch of different natural ingredients, right?
		Whatever creates a turkey breast.
		It seems like it's just a matter of innovation and technology improving to the point where they can recreate that.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no, the question is, you know, is that...
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Is that better for you than the whole foods, plant-based diet?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's the real question, right?
		Because that's where things get convoluted.
		What is healthy versus what is ethical versus what makes you feel like you're doing the right thing morally?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you know, the way, you know, I stopped eating, you know, meat about 1986. I went to a, I was doing a story for Fortune magazine on the biggest independently owned cattle ranches in America.
		And there's one that was so big in Oklahoma, they had their own slaughterhouse.
		They kill the animal with this captive bolt to the brain.
		It's supposed to happen instantly, but there was one animal that came around, and it was still alive.
		At that point, it was hanging upside down, and its hide was stripped off.
		It's looking at me with its eye, and it's following my eye.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Its hide was stripped off, and it was still alive?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		And as it's turning around, it was turning its head and it still held my eye.
		And I thought, the son of a bitch is alive and I'm part of this.
		So I stopped eating meat shortly after that.
		And so I thought, well, I have to eat something, right?
		I have to eat an animal product because, you know, you're going to shrivel up and die if you don't.
		And then, so I became a pescatarian.
		That's all I ate for animal protein.
		Well, you know, I did milk and dairy, but I didn't eat anything.
		I limited myself to things that didn't walk.
		So fish was like fair territory for me.
		And then when we made the cove, there's a scene in it where we take a sample of hair from the deputy minister of fisheries there, and we tested for mercury.
		And while I was out at the lab, I thought, well, I'll get mine tested, too, because I ate a lot of fish.
		I loved it.
		My son's still a professional fisherman, and I had a freezer full of fish all the time, stocked up of fresh ocean, well, not fresh, but frozen ocean fish.
		And I had it for breakfast, lunch, and dinner all the time.
		Then when we got his sample back, it was eight times higher than was high, which is like you don't want any mercury in your body.
		Mercury is the most toxic non-radioactive element in the world.
		And my levels were 44 times higher.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Jesus.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Were you experiencing any physical effects of that?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I was having trouble with my short-term memory.
		I had an ache in my shoulder that was there for probably decades.
		I tried to get it massaged out.
		If you start looking through the...
		You know, the problems with mercury.
		You notice that there's a whole litany of things that it causes depending on how bad you have it.
		But my doctor said it's the worst he'd ever seen in Colorado.
		So I had to get off of it.
		And then, you know, this is...
		So we're here in LA for the Academy Awards and I met my first vegan.
		And I said, what do you eat?
		And she goes, everything else.
		You know, all protein originates with plants.
		And that was how I got started.
		And it took a...
		You know, I thought, okay, well...
		Mercury has a half-life in your body of about 70 to 90 days.
		And so it took me about two years to get it down.
		And I thought, well, I'll just try a little.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Two years to get it down?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Why did it take so long?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Because it has a half-life in your body of 70 to 90 days.
		So 44 goes to 22. Oh, 90 to 180. So I thought, okay, then I'll start eating a little bit of fish.
		And then I had to test it right away and I jacked back up.
		And I thought, okay, I can't be tested.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So all fish is poison.
unidentified		Yeah.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Oh, big fish is poison for sure.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Big fish, like tuna.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, tuna, swordfish, marlin.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So what is the recommendations?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They tell you you're not supposed to eat it more than a couple times a week or something like that, but it seems like if it's got a half-life of...
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I don't trust any of that.
		I mean, like...
		I mean, I can't mess with it.
		When I was in Japan, I went to Minamata, where they had the—they call it Minamata disease, but it's not a disease.
		It's poison.
		There's a company that was intentionally polluting the bay where there's a lot of fishermen, and the kids, of course, got—well, the cats got affected first because people give the— The fish to the cats and the cats would have called dancing cat disease.
		You know, you heard the expression mad as a hatter.
		That's because they had the felt from 100 years, 150 years ago.
		They used to cure the felt, the beaver felt on top hats.
		But they would use the mercury and the hatters would go mad.
		In Minamata, the cats got affected and the kids.
		And then, you know, the people, a couple hundred thousand people got affected.
		And at least remember, this is 1950s, remote villages.
		And an American researcher went there and saw that everybody looked weird and said, something's going on here.
		And he found out that they were dumping mercury into the bay.
		And I saw, I visited a doctor there that studied Minamata disease.
		He was the guy that was in charge of figuring out compensation for what they owe people.
		And he showed me these brains of, you know, they sliced open.
		And it looked like Swiss cheese.
		We're talking about the convolutions of the brain and how dolphins have more of them.
		Same thing with people, but, you know.
		And the ones, the slices, they look like Swiss cheese.
		There's holes that, the mercury's eating up in the brain.
		And so you don't want, you know, once you see that, you don't want that in your body.
		So I had to get off fish and become a vegan, not for ethical reasons, but because of, I just couldn't eat it, just for health reasons.
		But I'm doing just fine.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		How fucking crazy is that, that most fish is poison?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Like that is such a crazy thing to think that the ocean is so fucked up That most of the food you pull out of the ocean is a mess.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, most of the fish that we're eating, I think 54% is farm-raised.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Again, I just read it this morning in Los Angeles magazine.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But that's worse, right?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		It's worse, yeah.
		And, you know, the ecological damage it's doing is crazy.
		The health consequences is crazy.
		So the question is, then, what do we eat?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What about mollusks?
		So one of the things that someone told me that was actually someone who was a vegan told me about mollusks.
		They said you can make an ethical argument that mollusks are actually less complicated life forms than even plants.
		They don't have the same nerve endings, they don't really move, they open and shut, and they're a viable form of animal protein that is just so primitive.
		I heard that too.
		We think of them as life forms, but so is broccoli.
		That's a life form as well.
		But there's actually more evidence that plants are intelligent than there is that mollusks are.
		Mollusks are an incredibly ancient life form.
		But then again, don't you get some sort of mercury poisoning from them as well?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Well, they're on the bottom, right, usually, and they're filtering, so you're getting whatever toxins there are.
		I'm not going to say that molluscs are poison.
		I just wouldn't eat it.
		I'm going a completely different direction, but I've heard that before, that molluscs are— You can farm them, too, right?
unidentified		Mm-hmm.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		You can.
		I mean, if we really can break down that they're even more primitive, but yet more nutritious— I did a story in Polynesia on oysters, and they have the big oysters that they get for pearls.
		And they just eat the muscle that holds all the organs and stuff on.
		When I said, oh, in America, we eat the whole oyster, they're like, what?
		Because the muscle tastes like fish flesh.
		It's actually pretty good.
		But the idea that we're eating all those other filtered organs and stuff, I just don't know.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But you don't know.
		I don't know.
		Has anybody come up with any sort of comprehensive plan or anything that makes sense where they can viably repopulate the ocean?
		I mean, the idea of stopping and slowing down fishing would be wonderful, but if it really gets to a point where we've got to somehow or another independently grow these fish and reintroduce them to the wild, I mean, is there any talk of doing things like that, or is it even impossible?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I think it's impossible, the scale of what's going on right now.
		You know, when I was in Japan, they were saying that, oh, we used to go out all, you know, we could fill up a boat in a day.
		Now it's eight days.
		Then we have to go out 30 and we're competing with the Koreans, the Chinese, the Taiwanese.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And everybody's just going gangbusters.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		And we're using military gear, sonar, to catch things at this unprecedented rate.
		It's not sustainable.
		I personally don't believe that fishing, to feeding this planet currently, you can do it with fish.
		I don't think you can do it with...
		And we know...
		What's, you know, the unethical side of raising, you know, farm animals for this is it's just I think we have to transition to another form.
		I think it's going to be, you know, 10 or 12 years, but I think we're headed that direction.
		And people, I think what you're seeing now is that there's a direction towards, you know, people want to eat healthier.
		They want to eat sustainable.
		And I know you're a hunter.
		I mean, I was a hunter, too.
		I hunted fish.
		And, you know, I understand, like, when you come back, You come back with the goods.
		You come back with an animal and you're feeding your family, you're feeding your friends.
		You feel like the man.
		You feel like there's something you tap in that's really primitive in a really genuine way that makes us feel good about who we are, that you're providing.
		And I know that happened when I was a fisherman.
		You know, you go hunt a fish with your friends, and there's a group thing going on, and everybody's there, they're enjoying themselves, and it feels wonderful.
		But we can't do it with wild fish.
		You know, with 4% of the biomass being wild animals now, and the rest of it being...
		It's not sustainable.
		And I wish it was because there's something we lost with that.
		But we have to transition.
		We're at that period right now where we have to figure out how do you feed a planet?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's the real problem, right?
		And not just how do you feed a planet.
		How do you feed a planet that may double its population in the next 50 years?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, they're talking 10 billion by 2050, and we're already at a point where, you know, we're at the...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so 20 years past that, it might really be double.
		It might be 15 million, or excuse me, billion people.
		That's crazy.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		So, you know, you can't have 18 and a half million people in the greater Los Angeles area going out and hunting for their food or fishing, you know.
		So what are we going to eat?
		I think the way to do it is drifting more towards plants.
		Last week I was in Loma Linda, California.
		You know where that's at.
		You've heard about one of the blue zones?
		Yeah.
		For the people out there that might not know about it, Dan Buettner, Geographic Fellow, popularized the idea that there's these five geographic regions of the planet where people live longer and without chronic disease than any other place on the planet.
		So I was out there last week at the Brain Health and Alzheimer Clinic.
		And there's two researchers that started one.
		There wasn't one for miles around.
		And they opened it.
		One out of three people in America in the next 10 years are going to be affected by Alzheimer's.
		They're going to have it.
		Their mate's going to have it.
		They're going to be taking care of somebody that has it, their parents.
		So it's going to overtake heart disease as our number one disease that we have.
		They opened up the brain health clinic there, an Alzheimer's clinic, and nobody came.
		Now, about half the population of Seventh-day Adventists are vegetarians by religion.
		And you go to the grocery store, they don't sell meat.
		They have milk.
		They have cow's milk, but it's on the bottom shelf.
		They just have a few things of it.
		And to find people initially, they had to go to San Bernardino across the highway.
		There's nothing geologically different between San Bernardino and Loma Linda.
		They're drinking the same water, breathing the same air, but they have a different diet.
		But they're living about 10 years longer than everybody else.
		San Bernardino is one of the unhealthiest populations in America.
		And on the other side of Highway 10, you have one of the healthiest populations in the entire world.
		And they're living about 10 years on average longer.
		They're doing other things too.
		It's not just diet.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a big factor, sleep.
		I mean, Dr. Matthew Walker has been on this podcast, who's a well-renowned sleep scientist, was discussing that it's one of the biggest factors where they've determined that the less sleep you have, the higher likelihood you have of Alzheimer's disease.
		And it's really stark.
		The numbers are pretty undisputable.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, I agree.
		They have four principles, the Shurzai's, Dean and Aisha Shurzai.
		Sleep is one of them, whole foods, plant-based diet, support, community support, and exercise.
		Those are the big ones.
		But out of the 3,000 people that they have in the Alzheimer's clinic now, only 19 of them, or sorry, only 13 of them are vegetarians and three vegans.
		So, I mean, you look at, you know, if you look at, if you break it down, the population, like how many of the 24,000 people there that are vegetarians, about 15%, you'd expect, you know, several hundred of them to be, you know, with Alzheimer's to be vegetarians, but they're not there.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So many of them are following that Seventh-day Adventist diet, which is vegetarian.
unidentified		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But when you're talking about San Bernardino, it's a very poor community, unfortunately.
		And I think you know as well as I do, a lot of people in poor communities eat terrible.
		You know, when you're eating junk food and sugar and all that crap, I mean, that's one of the primary factors when it comes to poor health.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Education is related definitely to brain health, unfortunately, and it has nothing to do that they're stupid.
		It's just that you're right, they're not eating as well.
		You know, the first McDonald's was in San Bernardino.
		Was it really?
		Yeah.
		We went to the museum there, the McDonald's Museum.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They have a McDonald's Museum?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Do they have all the Ronald McDonald's from the beginning to the end?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Everything, yeah.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so they've been really good about keeping fast food out of Loma Linda.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Isn't there giant concerns even with large-scale agriculture?
		When you're talking about monocrops and growing things for 15 billion people, you're going to need gigantic swaths of land.
		It's going to displace a lot of wildlife.
		You're going to have a lot of different chemicals that get released into the ground unless you're doing regenerative farming, in which case you're going to have to use some animal products anyway because you have compost and fertilizer.
		You need fish for fertilizer or something that creates nitrogen.
		There's a lot of issues even with large-scale agriculture when you're growing crops.
		You're doing something that's wholly unnatural.
		If you have 1,000 acres of corn or soybeans or anything that you're growing in large-scale, that's not how nature intends it.
		Nature intends everything to be combined together.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Right, but if you look at the amount of crops that are out there, most land is being used to grow crops to feed animals.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Right.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, sort of.
		A lot of it's being used to feed animals.
		A lot of it's being used for corn syrup and a lot of different...
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		And we can agree on that.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Get rid of it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, you've seen King Corn, right?
unidentified		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's pretty fucking crazy when they check your DNA and they find out how much of your DNA is corn-based.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And you're like, what?
		Like, what is going on?
		Or how much of your cellular structure is corn-based?
		It's like, how much corn is in your diet?
		And then you go through the supermarket and go and pick up box after box and read how much corn is in there.
		Corn starch, corn syrup, different proteins that they've extracted from corn.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me ask you, how do you think, you know, if we have to feed 10, 15 billion people in the future, how do you think?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Real question.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		We should be feeding the population.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's a good question.
		It's a very good question.
		I have hope for this fake meat shit.
		Not the plant-based stuff where they're using oils, but the actual physical meat that they can figure out some way to create meat without animals dying.
		I am not a fan of factory farming.
		It's the reason why I got into hunting in the first place.
		I saw a lot of those PETA documentaries.
		I just didn't want to have any part of any of that shit.
		I know there are ethical ranchers that raise their animals grass-fed and they let them roam.
		There's a guy named Joel Salatin who has this thing called Polyface Farms where he teaches people regenerative farming methods and teaches people how to let animals be animals.
		It's the polar opposite of factory farming.
		When you see these I'm sure you've seen some of these disgusting videos of these pig farms where they have lakes of sewage attached to these farms where these pigs are in these warehouses stacked in one on top of the other and then all their waste goes down through the floor and into these giant huge lakes of shit and piss.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		And then they spray it on the crops.
unidentified		Well, I don't know if they spray that on the crops, but it leaks into the ground.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They spray the pig and shit on the...
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, look, all that stuff is wrong.
		I mean, all of it's wrong.
		I mean, whether chickens raising chickens like that, or cows like that, or pigs like that.
		And there's a reason why they have these ag-gag laws.
		And those are another thing that are akin, in my eyes, to the same thing that the way we feel about dolphins in captivity in a place like SeaWorld.
		Those ag-gag laws, agricultural gag laws, they keep people from divulging the horrors of these factory farms.
		And there's got to be a way to stop those laws, first of all.
		These places should be transparent.
		If there's something they do that's abhorrent, if there's something they do, you could see the lives of these animals when they're treated in these horrific ways.
		It's not necessary.
		It's just they're doing that for profit, and this is why you can get a chicken sandwich for $1.99 or whatever the fuck it is.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, that saying of slaughterhouses had glass walls.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Right.
		Yeah.
		Yeah.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		But going back to it, though, I mean, so how do you – so lab meat, you think, would be the – I think lab meat has real potential.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The same way cell phones used to cost, you know, $1,000.
		Well, more than that.
		Like, what was – What was one of those big Motorola bricks?
		Remember those things that Gordon Gekko had on Wall Street?
		They were really expensive.
		When he was walking down the beach with that thing, like, wow, that guy's a baller.
		He's got a phone.
		He's just walking with no cord.
		Now everyone has a phone.
		I was in Brazil, and these people were walking around.
		They had very little money, but they all had phones.
		Cell phones have made their way throughout virtually all of the world.
		How much?
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		Four grand.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Four grand?
		So four grand in 82 is probably what today?
		20?
		Probably like 20, right?
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's a lot.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Let's just say it's a lot.
		Even if it's four grand.
		Imagine if a fucking iPhone was four grand, people would be going crazy.
		The new one's almost two grand and everybody's going crazy.
		I think that sort of technological innovation and improvement I think we were going to see that in this sort of factory-created meat because the original factory-created burger that they made, I believe it was a quarter of a million dollars that it cost to create one and people ate it and they're like, this is beef.
		This is like real beef.
		I think with innovation, they could figure out a way to do that so we don't ever have to have these factory farming situations.
		I mean, I think that's possible.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no, I think it is too.
		I've talked to some of the people that are working on that and when you look at how fast Cells can reproduce.
		It's just a matter of scale and getting the right texture and taste.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I'm under no illusion that what I do is available to everybody.
		I go hunting in the mountains.
		Most people don't want to do that.
		And I do it with a bow and arrow.
		Most people don't want to learn how to do that.
		They don't have it in them.
		They don't want it.
		It's not interesting.
		To me, if I shoot one elk, that is 400 pounds of meat.
		One life feeds me for a year.
		And I feed my friends.
		I feed a lot of people.
		I give elk meat out to a bunch of people.
		I'm under no illusion that everyone can do that.
		But everyone can't do most of the things that I do.
		I just do it because it makes me feel better than going and getting something that's factory farmed.
		If I saw what they did to chickens and I knew that my chicken had come from these horrific environments and I ate that, I'd feel sick.
		And so that's why I became a hunter in the first place.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well that's what we concern ourselves.
		You and I can eat.
		You're probably better than me, but I can eat how I want to eat.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But doesn't that sound weird?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You say I eat better than you?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		No, you can afford more is what I'm saying.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Is that what it is?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But I'm telling you, I'm getting my meat from the woods.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not saying better.
		I'm saying that you could eat how you want.
		You easier than me.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Financially.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I've seen what you have around here.
		Nice little cozy man den you have down here.
		But, boys, you should see what's out there.
unidentified		It's like the ultimate caveman.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Not caveman, but man cave.
		Ultimate caveman would be a giant Neanderthal.
		But yeah, it's the conversation between...
		I mean, I have a gang of friends that are vegan and vegetarian.
		One of my best friends is vegan, Ian Edwards.
		I love him to death.
		I don't...
		I don't dispute that we're in a conundrum and we're in a terrible situation as a civilization.
		We've certainly overpopulated the planet in many ways.
		And we've certainly allowed something to take root in our society that I think is disgusting.
		That's factory farming of animals.
		There's something...
		Vile about it, undeniably vile.
		And there's a reason why people are prosecuted for exposing what makes everybody sick.
		Look, if they exposed it and said, look, I'm going to take a picture, I'm going to show you a video of how these cows are living, and you take the video and the cows are just wandering around eating grass, no one would give a shit.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Right.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Right?
		It's when you see these people kicking these cows and when you see them alive, like, kosher.
		The way they do that, where they have to slice their throat and they have to do it with one cut, and this is why people want kosher meat, like some ancient, ridiculous idea of how to dispose of a life.
		I mean, all those things sicken people, which is the reason why they have those laws, keeping people who work there from videotaping and exposing it in the first place.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think the King Amendment, I believe what it is, is from Iowa, or at least it was.
		I'm not sure if he's still even in power there.
		But...
		Yeah, but if people saw how milk is done, I know you're a proponent of milk, but if you saw that...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Not really.
		I don't drink it.
		If I drink four glasses of milk a year, it's a lot.
		Yeah, I don't think it's good for you.
		I think raw milk is probably better for you, but every time I drink a glass of milk, I always feel gross.
		I feel like the homogenization and pasteurization of milk, you're breaking down all the enzymes and boiling it.
		What you get is some weird protein that your body doesn't exactly know how to process correctly.
		There's a reason why so many people get horrible gas off of it.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so 65% of the population of the world is lactose intolerant.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		A nine-year-old, she's lactose intolerant.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		She can't have anything with cheese or milk or anything.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I didn't figure that out until I was like 50 that it was lactose intolerant.
		I mean, really.
		I mean, I should have figured it out, but I just thought it was normal.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I think my daughter gets it from me.
		I've never...
		I mean, I can eat ice cream and I'm okay, but I always feel like shit.
		It never makes me feel good afterwards.
		I always feel like, ugh.
		Like, I'll have cookies and milk, and then I'll be like, ugh.
		It's just a weird...
		My body's like, what is this?
		However, I've had raw milk and I haven't had any problems with it.
		I just think it's...
		There's a big problem with acquiring raw milk.
		It's very hard to get.
		But I think if people are going to drink milk at all, that's how we're supposed to drink it.
		I don't think we're supposed to be...
		Boiling that stuff.
		And then, you know, it comes out, it's dead.
		That's why, look, you're not supposed to have anything biological that can sit in your fucking refrigerator for two weeks and not stink.
		Like, how is that?
		And you look at the date, the date is like a month.
		Like, how the fuck is this going to stay good for a month?
		Because they boil the shit out of it.
		And look, if you want to serve milk to...
		300 million people, that's how you have to do it.
		If you want to get it in containers and travel across the country in these trucks and get it to supermarkets and have it sit on the shelf.
		and have it be financially viable for them to be able to hold on to it long enough for them to sell it and turn a profit and then have no one get sick from it because like raw milk is good for like a couple of days and that's it and it used to be the people got their milk delivered on their doorstop you know the milkman that was the thing milkman used to come to your house and you didn't even really have a lid it had like that little paper yeah a little paper thing that you'd pull off that's what we had as a kid and it was fresh and the cream would sit on the top of it it just tasted different I've
		had raw milk.
		I haven't had it in years.
		But the last time I had raw milk, I was like, this just tastes better.
		It tastes like when you drink it, it feels like your body is like, oh, I know what this is.
		Whereas like a regular glass of milk, my body's like, what in the fuck?
		And then you got to think about how they get it, right?
		Like how they keep these cows pregnant and the process of acquiring billions of gallons of milk for millions and millions of people.
		It's kind of gross.
		Not even kinda.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But however, almond milk's disgusting.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You don't drink that shit, do you?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Why do you say that?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's just gross.
		It's just not milk, man.
		Almonds don't have tits.
		Like, what are you doing to that water?
		You know, just have a glass of water or drink some juice or something.
		I mean, it's just got to be some benefit.
		I mean, almonds are good for you, right?
		But almonds are a real problem in California, ecologically, because of the amount of water they use.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I totally agree.
		Yeah.
		Soy milk's sort of my milk of choice, or oat milk.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
		Just drink water, man.
		I agree.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I agree, but not out of plastic.
unidentified		Okay, just hide this.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I know we have to do something about that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		We've been talking forever.
unidentified		We're going to develop some sort of a system here.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What do you recommend for us?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Glass.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Right, but where should we get our water from?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Should we get filtered water or should we get spring water?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I think filtered water is probably good.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		Like canned or boxed water.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		That's a thing now.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but they use this paper.
unidentified		Yeah, you still get garbage.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		We're working on a film on plastic pollution right now.
		And we're trying to think, how do you...
		It's a big problem.
		Like, you look at the oceans here.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		We've had Boyan Slott on, and we're going to have him on again.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		He's the guy who's created that filter system.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, he came up to visit me, too, where I work.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		He's got new ones for the rivers.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Have you seen the new ones that he's...
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I saw that, yeah, a couple weeks ago, I think they mentioned something.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		He's already got them working.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		But here's the issue that I'm learning from.
		There's this guy, Andrew Forrest, one of the wealthiest guys in Australia, told me that this isn't the problem.
		It's that you're having cheap plastic made in Saudi Arabia and America and it's being exported to – there's 10, 11 rivers where the majority of the plastic in the ocean are coming from.
		And it's not recyclable.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Rivers is where the plastic's coming from?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What do you mean?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		There's about 10 to 12 rivers over in Southeast Asia that generate most of the plastic that you see.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		How in the river?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		In Indonesia, for instance, you have 17,000 islands, but only 10 recycling plants, right?
		Places to do it.
		There's nowhere to throw it, so they throw it in the...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're saying the garbage is in these rivers.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I'm not saying the creation of the plastic.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		The creation of the plastic comes from America and it comes from Europe and it comes from Saudi Arabia.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Right, right.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I see what you're saying.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		But the volume, most of the volume is coming from these 10 to 12 rivers in Southeast Asia.
		You have to make...
		Plastic costs enough, first of all, that they can make it recyclable.
		There's different ways to make polymers so that they can recycle it.
		They just do it the cheapest way possible because they know it's not coming back.
		So you have to put a tax on virgin plastic to make it valuable for people to be able to recycle it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		A great solution is hemp plastic.
		It's biodegradable.
		It comes from this plant.
		I mean, you can make hemp plastic.
		And we can grow it, and it's an easy crop to grow.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Is that scalable?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Hemp is so weird, it doesn't even seem like it should be real.
		I mean, it really doesn't.
		It's an insane plant.
		You can make hempcrete out of it, which is far better than any building material we currently use.
		It's far more resistant to flame.
		There's just so many positive benefits of it in terms of insulation.
		The insulation factor is better than wood or plywood.
		It's really lightweight but incredibly strong.
		Have you ever grabbed a thick hemp stalk?
		Have you ever held onto one?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		No.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't seem real.
		It's hard like this oak, but yet it's light like balsa wood.
		It's so strange, it feels like it comes from another planet.
unidentified		Wow.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Hemp is an extraordinary planet.
		It's the most extraordinary plant we have.
		First of all, it has all the essential amino acids.
		I love hemp protein.
		It's one of my favorite proteins.
		We sell it on it.
		We sell hemp protein.
		It's one of the very best proteins in terms of being able to mix it and like a protein shake and on the go, your body digests it super easily and it's like filled with amino acids.
		It's very easy for your body to digest and process.
		You can make oil out of it that they used to use for heating lamps.
		You can cook your food in it.
		I mean, there's so many different things you can do with hemp.
		You can make clothing.
		You can make far more durable cloth.
		Far more durable.
		The paper is far superior.
		In fact, the whole reason why William Randolph Hearst demonized marijuana in the first place was to protect his business because he had paper mills and he was trying to protect it from hemp.
		Because on the cover of Popular Science magazine, they had come out with a decorticator.
		A decorticator was a way in the 1930s they devised to effectively process hemp fiber.
		Because for years, they used to use slaves to process hemp.
		Then when they figured out the cotton gin, cotton became easier to use, and then slavery became outlawed, and so people shied away from hemp.
		Well, they came up with this decorticator in the 1930s.
		It was on the Well, William Randolph Hearst didn't just own Hearst Publications and newspapers.
		He also owned these huge forests that they were making paper with.
		So he, along with Harry Anslinger and using his newspapers, demonized marijuana to stop the commodity of hemp.
		Yes.
		He funded all those fucking crazy marijuana movies, Reefer Madness, all that shit.
		That was all him.
		They came up with these stories that these Mexicans and black men were taking this new drug called marijuana.
		Marijuana wasn't even a term for cannabis.
		Marijuana was a term for a wild tobacco.
		So they came up with this new name.
		They called it this drug.
		Everybody freaked out because they didn't have the internet back then.
		No one had access to real information other than Hearst newspapers, Hearst Publications.
		So he just fucking out and out lied and made up these crazy stories and funded these documentaries.
		And then marijuana became illegal and still is to this day.
		And you still have knuckleheads like Joe Biden literally yesterday saying that he thinks marijuana is a gateway drug.
		Forget about marijuana.
		Imagine if it wasn't psychoactive at all.
		The idea that hemp should be illegal until really recently in this country is a fucking travesty.
		It's horrific.
unidentified		It's food, it's clothes, it's paper.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't even make sense that it could be so many things.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's literally like one of the most positive plants the Earth's ever known.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I'll vote for it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Dude, you should do a national documentary on that.
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		I think he got to Joe Biden.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Ah, Joe, fuck you!
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		Too late!
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot to talk on here where I stand.
		Oh, one hour ago.
		I put my fucking Instagram post out this morning.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		And they did this one.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I basically had a well-worded thing saying that anyone who thinks that marijuana should be legal is basically saying you should be locked in a cage for experimenting with your consciousness.
		And the freedom to...
		To do whatever you want with your body that is, especially with marijuana, that's not poisonous.
		No one's died of it ever.
		Ever.
		In the history of the human race, there's never been a single overdose from marijuana.
		And this knucklehead saying that it's a gateway drug.
		No, pain is a gateway drug.
		Trauma is a gateway drug.
		Abuse is a gateway to drugs.
		It's not marijuana.
		Marijuana is just a time-honored psychedelic substance that people have been enjoying for thousands and thousands of years.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		They should have run for Congress.
unidentified		Fuck that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I'm not running for anything.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I'm not even running for my neighborhoods, whatever the hell it is.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I just saw a poster over there.
		Did he run for mayor?
		Was that a joke?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What poster?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I thought that was a poster.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's 100% a joke.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Look, I'm not ever running for anything, ever.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was right next to Hunter Thompson for mayor, and I thought, well, maybe there was some truth to it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		No, it was Hunter Thompson for sheriff, but there was nothing there for me.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Is there anything for me?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		No, it's just Hunter Thompson.
		That's not me.
		Look, I'm not running for anything, ever.
		I have three jobs and three kids.
		I'm busy, and I have a lot of hobbies.
		Too many hobbies.
		I'm trying to chip away at hobbies.
		But if I can get Joe Biden to shut the fuck up, I'm very happy.
		Crazy asshole.
		There's so many people that smoke pot in this country.
		He's so crazy.
		For him to come out against that is so goddamn dumb.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		How do you smoke pot on this show and still hold the conversation, though?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Let's see.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I'll smoke it with you right now.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no.
		No, it's not hard.
		Because I'm a stoner.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Because I'm a stoner.
		I know how to do it, man.
		I've been doing it forever.
		Look, one of the things that I said in my Instagram post today, marijuana is not for everybody, and I think it should be used carefully.
		Because, look, I've said a lot of dumb shit when I've been high.
		I've thought a lot of dumb shit.
		I've been paranoid.
		It's not for everybody.
		I think it should be treated cautiously.
		But there's a lot of benefits to it.
		I really firmly believe that it's made me a more sensitive person.
		It's made me more...
		Interested in community.
		It's made me more aware of how important it is that we're all connected and that we all converse with each other in a calm way.
		It's made me feel better about happy communication with people.
		It's made me more affectionate.
		It's made me more compassionate, more kind.
		It makes me more aware.
		The feeling of paranoia, one of the things that that paranoia is, is just an overall expanding of your awareness of your vulnerability.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Of all the things you've done, because you had a lot of hats in your career, do you find this the most satisfying to you with the podcast?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Mom made this in stand-up.
		I mean, stand-up is more complicated, right?
		Because there's got to be an end result.
		It has to be funny.
		Whereas the beautiful thing about this is I've been able to expose a lot of people to things like The Cove, like you and your work, like so many different doctors and scientists and astrophysicists and Dr. Matthew Walker that we talked about earlier were explaining sleep and how important this really is.
		This isn't just something that you feel better if you get more sleep.
		No, it's like long-term for your life.
		These are all little bits of information that I think It's very difficult for people to absorb just by going out and reading studies, right?
		So the next best thing is reading a book.
		Well, the next best thing is me having a person who wrote that book on a podcast to talk about it.
		And maybe not even the next best thing.
		It might be the best best thing.
		Because it's absorbable.
		It's a conversation with people.
		And to me, I've gotten a fantastic education from it.
		Being able to talk to thousands of brilliant people, or hundreds at least, of brilliant people and pick their brain and just, with genuine curiosity, just ask them questions and read their book and then try to have...
		Try to have an understanding of it and try to, when they come on the show, try to get them to fill in my blanks and in turn educate the audience on things that may be a little bit complicated for them to comprehend.
		And it's just, to me, it's something that was completely unexpected.
		I didn't ever plan on doing this.
		I just started doing it and then it just kind of became what it is now.
		So it's very satisfying that people like it.
		You know, when I talk to people and they say, I mean, I can't tell you how many people I've run into that said it's like changed their life.
		It's changed their perspective.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		So many people said, you know, once I started, I was going to be on the show.
		They said, oh, we got to see this podcast.
		I spent two weeks.
		That was my day job, listening to interviews that you've done.
		I just felt totally captivated and envious of the position that you're in to be able to have people and talk about a wide range of stuff.
		When I do a film, it's so targeted that I'm needing them to fill in a blank.
		I need two or three minutes, and I might talk as long.
		But, you know, I've got this list of, a shopping list of things I need to cover, and here you just have a conversation.
		It's a lot different, and it seems like a lot more fun.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's a lot more fun.
		Like, when you said at the beginning of this, like, what kind of research have you done to prepare for this?
		I'm like, fortunately, I get to pick who I talk to.
		And for you, I mean, I knew that you had directed The Cove, and...
		The subject of dolphins has been...
		I mean, it was a huge bit on my 2016 Netflix special about an experience that I had when I was in Hawaii, high as fuck on edibles, and we ran into this patch of wild dolphins, and they were playing with us.
		They were playing with us, and we were yelling, like, yay!
		And they would jump out of the water and do flips for you.
		They were putting on a show, and I remember having this thought...
		Like, holy shit, they're playing with us.
		These are these wild creatures and they're having fun with us.
		And then I started doing all this research on dolphins and dolphin communication.
		I became obsessed with dolphins because of this one...
		I mean, I had been fascinated by them before, but I became truly obsessed.
		And this was...
		This experience was more than ten years ago.
		And since then, I've just...
		I've been overwhelmed and also...
		Massively disheartened by films like yours and by seeing SeaWorld and by seeing what was going on in Marineland with my friend Phil.
		I've had him on a bunch of times to talk about his lawsuits.
		I mean, they have done everything they can to try to silence that guy and stop him from revealing all the horrors of that place.
		But slowly but surely, he's had a massive impact on that place's business to the point where they're trying to just get him to shut up.
		And he won't.
		He won't.
		I mean, he was on the inside.
		He was a trainer.
		And all that stuff.
		So for me to be able to talk to someone like you, it's, you know, I love the fact that we can get that out there.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Well, I appreciate it.
		Yeah.
		I mean, you know, swimming with dolphins in the wild, there was a trigger to memory over in Rangaroa.
		I was with our team and there was three groups of resident dolphins.
		So they're hanging out there all the time.
		You get to recognize them.
		And we were playing with them.
		And the more you play with them, the more you can spin around, the more excited they get.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		And they could only do it for so long.
		And I remember once that we were doing it, and we finally, we had scooters.
		And we thought, well, the more, so a dolphin looks at you, and you can't.
		You look like you're, like, in a wheelchair.
		Not even.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Someone in a wheelchair can get around pretty good.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		But, you know, in the water, we just look like, you know, we're just pitiful.
		And so they can only be entertained so long.
		But the scooters, we figured we could engage them a lot longer.
		And then all of a sudden this group just took off.
		And you're let down because you're high from the experience of being with them in the wild.
		And they took off and we saw that there was about an 18 foot long hammerhead and they were taking turns ramming it away from us.
unidentified		Wow!
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so it was like not only were they playing with us, they were protecting us.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Wow, that must have been wild, though, seeing an 18-foot-long hammerhead.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Holy shit!
		Yeah, because they disappeared into the blue, and then we could see them ramming this thing.
		The dolphins were big.
		I mean, they're not quite as long as this table, but they're probably 300 to 500 pounds, and they're maybe seven feet long, and they look tiny next to this shark.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Wow, that's wild.
		That is wild.
		Yeah.
		Occasionally you see, they'll do drone footage off of the coast of Malibu and you see like a great white swimming around there just a few hundred yards away from surfers.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Oh man, my son does that with drones.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		He goes out in his kayak and films them.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		My friend Peter, Peter Atiyah, he's done a bunch of crazy endurance things.
		And one of the things he did, he swam to all of the islands in Hawaii.
		And to prepare for this, he had to do a lot of swimming.
		He lives in San Diego and swimming in the coast out there.
		And he was swimming literally, what did he say, like a couple days after that guy got bit in half?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Oh my god.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think it was just...
jamie vernon ▲ ● ▼		He wasn't scared of it.
		You know, he wasn't scared of it.
		I think it might have been the next day.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think he was a little freaked out, but it was within a few days of one of the guys who got bit in half down in San Diego.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		When did this happen?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The San Diego incident?
		I want to say it was 10 years ago.
		Somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 years ago.
		And then there was one in Santa Barbara that happened about 4 years ago, 4 or 5 years ago.
		Occasionally, they slip up.
		Think a person's a seal or something.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Most of the time, I've dealt with a lot of sharks before.
		You usually only get them around you if you're feeding them.
		And that feels so horrible.
		It's just so unnatural.
		I won't do it anymore.
		It's weird, right?
		Yeah, it's just not.
		I couldn't be around it.
		There's some friends of mine that were feeding it.
		They're on a feed, and I was about, I don't know, maybe 50 yards away.
		And I thought, I just don't want to be part of it.
		And I was just filming on the reef, and these silver tips came over.
		And I don't know if they were excited by it.
		I had a camera with the strobes on it, but they just came in.
		They were attacking me.
		And I had a rebreather.
		I died with a rebreather, so you could scream.
		So I started screaming as loud as I could through this thing.
		But I was pushing them off, and they were, like, working together.
		You could see it was, like, packed.
		You know, like, one would go this way, and then one would go this way.
		So I had these lights with these, like, octopus with four lights on it, and I could push them away.
		But then one of the guys that we had brought over a tuna head and lured them away.
		But they were just...
		It was because they were excited by...
		You know, the feeding over there.
		So I don't even want to be in the water these days when people are feeding sharks.
		Because it's no joke.
		When you're under the water, it's not like you can just run up a tree.
		There's no place to go.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		There's nowhere to go.
		You feel helpless.
		And that's their natural environment.
		And that's what they're there for.
		They're there to clean up.
		Anything that's weak, anything that's fucked up, any seal that gets caught slipping, they're there for population control.
		There's a really powerful video off of the, I'm sure you've probably seen it, off of Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco where a bunch of tourists are there.
		Boom!
		This great white snatches a seal right in front of everybody.
		Just thunderous explosion of blood and foam in the water.
		Wow.
		Whoa!
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's a couple miles from where I live.
unidentified		Yeah, I mean, they're magic.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's a crazy beast.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		I'm supposed to, somebody just invited me today to go out and be with great weights.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Not diving, just to watch.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		There's a crazy video from, I think it was the Cape, somewhere around the Cape Cod, where there's like a 20-foot one next to a boat.
		And these guys were in this boat and this great white just swims right up next to them and they start fucking screaming and freaking out and it's enormous.
		It's like 20 feet long.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		If you don't feed them, they're usually fairly...
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		If you're feeding them or if you're spear hunting, then they'll come near you.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They're dangerous for spear hunters, right?
		Yeah.
		What is this?
		Record-breaking year for sharks off Cape Cod.
		Yeah, apparently there's a lot of them out there now.
		What do you think?
		Is that because of a large number of marine mammals?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Or drones.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		We can actually see them now, I think.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, right.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's true.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So listen, man, I want to thank you for coming here.
		It was very cool to have this conversation.
		And if people want to see The Cove, it's available on...
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Boy, that's a good question.
		I think you can still see it on iTunes.
		You can buy it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Is it on Netflix?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Not Netflix.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		No, but iTunes, it's available there.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Amazon, can you get it on Amazon?
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
		Racing Extinction is a little bit harder.
		I'm not sure where you can get that one, but I think that's better than The Cove in a lot of ways.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I'll check it out.
		I'll watch it.
		The COVID's pretty powerful, man.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, thanks.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Appreciate it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		My pleasure.
		Thanks for being here.
louie psihoyos ▲ ● ▼		Thanks for having me.

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