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June 6, 2015 - The Joe Rogan Experience
01:58:47
Joe Rogan Experience #656 - Bryan Callen
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bryan callen
48:03
j
joe rogan
01:07:42
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jamie vernon
00:39
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Speaker Time Text
bryan callen
A Twitter campaign for me.
Guys!
joe rogan
Brian motherfuckin' Callan.
You can find him on Twitter at B-R-Y. I'm sure someone has confiscated B-R-I-A-N Callan.
bryan callen
Yeah, how dare they?
joe rogan
And they probably fucked you.
They've probably done terrible things to that account.
bryan callen
I hate the name, Brian, because I have to always say it's B-R-Y. Oh, that is annoying.
It's just, you know, it's a unique great, so I spent my whole life going, actually, with a Y. It's a boring name to begin with.
It's not like it's a unique name.
joe rogan
Dude, I'm Joe.
That is the most boring name.
bryan callen
Yeah, but you can't really mess with that name.
J-O. It's just so simple.
joe rogan
I've seen people write a J-O at Starbucks.
bryan callen
That's annoying.
joe rogan
They're trying to fuck with me.
They're trying to make me a woman.
bryan callen
That's exactly right.
You have a lot of feminine energy.
Honestly, I didn't want to tell you that.
J-O. I'm J-O. With the features, your delicate features in your face.
That long aquiline nose.
joe rogan
J-O. I have a delicate bone structure.
bryan callen
Joe, is that a girl or a boy, that guy Rogan?
joe rogan
J.O. Rogan's girl.
This is how unoriginal my family is.
My grandmother's name was Josephine.
My grandfather's name was Joseph.
My dad's name was Joseph.
And my name is Joseph.
unidentified
That's terrible.
joe rogan
Fucking apes.
I want them to be named after me!
unidentified
The fucking kid's gotta have my name!
bryan callen
My grandma's name is Rose.
Grandfather's name is Dominic.
joe rogan
So those are normal names.
bryan callen
Victoria.
Michael.
Yeah.
joe rogan
My mother had a cool name, but she didn't like it.
My mother was born.
Her name was Asanta.
bryan callen
Asanta?
joe rogan
Asanta.
unidentified
Damn.
joe rogan
Yeah, she didn't like it.
She hated it.
So she changed it to Susan.
bryan callen
That's crazy.
joe rogan
Yeah, she wouldn't let anybody...
I didn't even know her name was Asanta until I was in high school.
bryan callen
My friend's mother was a hippie, and she named him Blue Quanwantiga Lawless.
Oh, no.
joe rogan
Didn't Gwyneth Paltrow name her kid Apple?
bryan callen
Without even knowing that, I will say to you 100% she did.
joe rogan
We have an issue with that, but why is Apple any worse than Joe?
bryan callen
It's not.
joe rogan
It's just not.
bryan callen
I think the people that I have, and I don't even know how to explain it, and I'm going to get into a larger point about it.
I have this strange reaction, and it's not a positive one, whenever a celebrity in Hollywood names their kids something really cool.
joe rogan
Right, like it might be adorable if it was your neighbor.
bryan callen
Yeah.
joe rogan
If your neighbor had a kid named Apple, and they were really nice.
bryan callen
Well, I think what makes me more, what annoys me more is that they're making the name of the kid about themselves, not about the kid.
joe rogan
Oh, I see what you're saying.
bryan callen
I think that's what bothers me about it.
joe rogan
Yeah, I think you're probably on to something.
You're on to, you sense the pretension.
bryan callen
Yeah.
Like when Puffy Combs, I think it was...
joe rogan
Is that the right word?
bryan callen
It's pretension, but it's also a little bit of spectacle.
It's a little bit like, hey, I named my kid Brooklyn, Apple, and Rumor, which are all cool names.
And I'm not saying, and maybe I would do the same, but I do feel like, again, of course, you're making a little bit about yourself.
You've got to name your kid...
Maybe you feel the pressure to name your kids something very different.
I don't know.
joe rogan
Yeah, I think...
bryan callen
I'm being a little...
joe rogan
No, you're onto something, though.
We don't like, like, fake energy people.
Nobody likes, like, I'm a healer.
You know what I mean?
You know what I mean?
There's like that fakeness that comes with...
But we do like, like, we were talking about yoga before this...
Show started like we like people that are really in the yoga because they actually enjoy the benefits of it And they're really they're really kind of down to earth and centered Those are nice people to be around.
Yes, but the ones who are faking that thing are fucking gross Well, they're wearing it like a costume, right?
bryan callen
So it becomes a character that they've taken over and again, that's something called affectation.
Yeah They're not doing it for the utility of yoga, like where you're working something out, whether it's peace of mind or getting more centered or whatever, and getting healthier.
I think that some people actually wear that cloak and become somewhat tyrannical about it.
They put on the outfit, the costume, now they're a yogi, now they're going to speak about being on the spiritual path, and within that is always a little bit of a...
Look at this.
These common cattle.
These people who drink coffee and other stimulants and obviously eat meat.
That's kind of what I think we react to.
joe rogan
I was listening to this conversation in yoga class with this woman who was advising this man on what he should do with his diet.
She was saying that meat is toxic.
Meat is toxic.
It's toxic.
I mean, the way she was doing it, it's fucking protein and water.
It's one of the most easily digestible things that people eat.
bryan callen
I love to do with people like that whenever they mention toxins.
Like, you sweat out all these toxins.
What toxins?
What are the toxins?
joe rogan
How's it going through your sweat?
bryan callen
Yeah, what are they?
joe rogan
You know where toxins get filtered?
Your fucking liver, okay?
bryan callen
Yeah, and your kidneys.
joe rogan
They're in your blood.
Your liver filters it out.
You're not getting toxins out of your body.
bryan callen
Right.
joe rogan
Oh, somebody told me they did some foot thing where they put you in a foot bath and the water turns brown.
Yeah, because the toxins in your body.
bryan callen
Meanwhile, they've done experiments on that, which is it reacts with the metal in the water to create with a certain sodium compound, and it creates rust.
It's rust.
joe rogan
Oh, so what is it they're putting on your feet?
They put like an oil on your feet?
bryan callen
Yeah, they put your feet in there and then they have an electric charge.
They put potassium in like a nail with an electric charge.
joe rogan
It's toxins, man.
bryan callen
And that brown stuff is coming out of your feet.
And they make a lot of money that way.
joe rogan
Somebody tried to tell me that.
They're taking the toxins out of your body and after you do it, you just feel amazing.
It's like, oh God, this is one of the beautiful things about the internet, is those people, like you can go, okay, is that real?
And then you Google it and you go, no, here's all these studies and they show that you're retarded.
bryan callen
There's a book I read about that where they break that particular thing down, that putting your feet in the water turns brown and all the toxins come out.
joe rogan
God, that's so dumb, but it's like, here it is, before iron cleanse.
bryan callen
Oh, look at that.
joe rogan
After a 30 minute treatment.
Amazing.
bryan callen
Except for you can do the same thing and take your feet out and put another compound in there and it turns brown as well.
joe rogan
Look at that fucking bullshit.
Look at that.
Like, they're really trying to pretend that all that brown is coming out of your body.
bryan callen
Yep.
joe rogan
If you have all that stuff in your body, you're fucking dying.
unidentified
Alright?
joe rogan
That's really bad.
bryan callen
Yeah.
It's very weird.
I guess it sucks it out of your body.
unidentified
So gross.
joe rogan
There's so much of that gross fake shit out there.
That gross fake, like, healing and psychic healers and zone healers.
bryan callen
But even that, even that is always, if you actually scratch into it, and I've spent enough, you know me, I've got a lot of patience for those people.
unidentified
You do.
bryan callen
Like, I love them.
joe rogan
How about the one who came up to you the other day, the one that we both know, that said to you something, it's about allowing.
unidentified
Oh!
joe rogan
Please tell me more.
Please tell me more about this text message.
We don't have to name names, but please tell me more.
bryan callen
It's just an interesting...
I'm very hesitant, too, in case he listens to the...
Or that person listens to your podcast like everybody else does.
But, yeah, some people tend to decide that they...
I think it's very common, especially in L.A. and places, for people to believe that they...
I found the answer.
I know all this conventional wisdom is your thing, but I actually have a roundabout way, and then they'll play with words, and they'll say, it's not about doing, it's kind of about allowing.
And you're like, you know, I love that.
I'm just like, I'll give you rope.
I'll be like, dude, tell me more immediately so I can talk about it on Joe Robbins' podcast with 16 million...
joe rogan
Oh, Christ.
bryan callen
You deal with that all the time, man.
My biggest thing with the healer kind of crowd, and some of them are great people, of course, and maybe they do some good, of course, but a lot of them are wearing it to bludgeon you with it, or it's a piece of identity.
Everything else has kind of gone well, and they turn their own crisis into sort of a...
You know, they've found their calling, which is to be a healer.
joe rogan
Also, I don't buy the ideas of people that are trying to be leaders and trying to push things and trying to create these movements and trying to...
If they don't do something to push themselves, like if I see you and you have a sloppy face and a big old double chin and your gut is hanging off your pants, you greedily await your food as you're sitting around with all these people that are listening to you.
I'm like, you're a guy that's caught up in the grips of not taking care of your own meat wagon.
bryan callen
Yes.
joe rogan
So why don't I listen to you about how you describe how we're supposed to live life and how the peaceful energy flows through your chakras and like, What exactly are you saying?
Are you just trying to get people to listen to you?
Because that's what it kind of seems like.
It kind of seems like you just want to be a leader.
bryan callen
That's usually what it is.
unidentified
They don't push themselves.
joe rogan
I think unless you're involved in some adverse situation, some situation where you have to encounter adversity and find out what you're made of, Whatever you're doing, whatever pursuit, if you're doing one of those, what are those crazy mutters, those crazy races those people do?
bryan callen
Tough mutters.
joe rogan
Tough mutters.
People love that, man.
You know why they love that?
Because they're getting fucking pushed.
They have to find out what they're made out of.
You don't find that in a cubicle.
You just fucking don't.
And I think there's a crazy desire that people have to do triathlons.
I'm gonna see if I can do it.
I want to do a sub-three-hour marathon.
It's like these fucking desires to push.
Push yourself!
Because we don't encounter enough mortality.
We don't encounter enough disease.
We don't encounter enough sadness to make ourselves aware of the special moment that you have when you've achieved peace.
bryan callen
And I really think we have a genetic memory of all those things.
joe rogan
Yeah, I do.
bryan callen
You know, you're put in a world where you're not being tested.
And struggle is such a huge part of the human experience.
And the other thing about gurus, though, is that whenever you see somebody who talks a lot, And they're telling you the secrets and methodology and technology of life.
The problem with that is that when you see people really accomplish something, like John Wayne Parr or whatever, if you ask John Wayne Parr to tell me the secrets of fighting, John Wayne Parr would look at me and go, well, you'd probably have to go train for 10 years, and a lot of it is something you have to experience and practice, not something I can tell you about.
And I think anybody who has A sharp profile who has really, really cool ways of putting words together.
You should be a little bit aware of that person.
joe rogan
Here's a good example of that.
You are what I would consider a master stand-up comedian.
You've been doing stand-up comedy for more than a decade, professionally.
You're hilarious.
You know, every time I see you, you're killing.
If you had to tell someone how to do stand-up, how the fuck would you even begin?
And imagine having the gall to tell someone how they should do stand-up.
bryan callen
It's incredible.
joe rogan
But the reality is, life is kind of like stand-up in a way.
unidentified
It is.
joe rogan
In that you have to do it your way.
You know, and if you like wearing dresses and ball gags and getting beat up by chicks, who the fuck am I to say there's something wrong with that?
As long as you're not hurting anybody, and if you are hurting them, it's because they want you to hurt them.
You're in some weird situation.
Who gives a fuck?
Really, who gives a fuck?
So when some guy comes along, it's about allowing.
Sometimes, sometimes it's about being in your car going, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, and then you go to work with a big smile on your face.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Because you're laughingly and jokingly, completely in the nature of, like, joking around, all through your day, where we're shit-mouthing people, or fuck-mouthing people.
I do that all the time!
bryan callen
Fuck yeah, it's therapeutic!
joe rogan
I do it all the time just for amusement.
I amuse myself.
I'll see myself in the car like, come on, fuckface, come on, fuckface!
You fucking dummy!
You fucking dummy!
But I'm never really mad at that guy.
I'm mocking it because it's fun to do.
It makes a normal, ordinary moment entertaining.
bryan callen
I think you're right.
I think life is a lot like stand-up in that sense.
joe rogan
We have different styles of living, you know, it's it's one of the cool things about life and I think everybody's person like different personalities gravitate towards different styles of living just Automatically and organically the same way people gravitate towards jobs You know the way some people are just drawn.
I want to be a comic book illustrator.
I'm drawn to it You know or some people like fuck always love music man.
bryan callen
Just always want to be a musician and My son, I told you I went to, I watched him at his school play, whatever, and he's not even four.
And it was so funny because all the kids were singing their songs and doing their thing, and my son is on the sidelines pulling his mouth open as wide as he possibly can.
Then he jumps over and just jumps in his kid's face.
Then he decides, I'm getting out of here.
Pulls his shirt up and walks off stage.
He gets the teachers chasing him.
He realizes it.
He's disrupting everything.
And he did a variation of that for all four songs.
And my wife was like, you know, this is crazy and this is bad.
And I was like, listen, all I know is I was exactly the same.
I don't remember it being a good thing.
It's probably going to be a bit of a struggle for him.
Who knows how to navigate it?
But there's one thing for sure.
He's not a conformist.
He's very different, and he sees the world very differently, and he'd way rather be doing this thing over here.
And, you know, I kind of looked, I was like, I thought to myself, I've always been the exact same way.
I've always been that way.
joe rogan
I wonder if it's genetics.
bryan callen
It has to be because he's so similar to me to the point where I remember doing that.
I remember going, this is embarrassing.
I'm not going to sing like everybody else.
I remember looking over, I was in kindergarten and I saw their mouths wide open and they were singing and I was like, well, that's embarrassing.
And my mother came over and she said, what's wrong?
And I said, I don't think we should be doing this.
And she said, why?
And I said, because we're not that good.
I knew at that age, I was very aware at that age how bad we were at singing and dancing.
joe rogan
That's funny.
bryan callen
And I think my son felt the same way.
He was a little embarrassed at the bad performance.
Because there's nothing worse than seeing, I don't know, 16, three and a half year olds trying to sing a song.
joe rogan
Yeah, you gotta wait until they're five before you even go to those things, for real.
bryan callen
100%.
joe rogan
They just can't do it yet.
unidentified
Forget it.
joe rogan
It's chaos, but it's adorable.
People love watching their kids do things.
You know, it's like their kid gets to be a star for a brief moment in time.
bryan callen
It's true.
joe rogan
Yeah, that's a weird thing.
It's a weird thing.
bryan callen
What is your...
Let me ask you this question.
We haven't talked about it, but...
And be honest.
What was your first reaction?
Like, your first gut reaction, if you even had one, when you saw the picture of Bruce Jenner on Vanity Fair under the title, Call Me Caitlyn?
joe rogan
Well, I got it when I was bear hunting with a bow and arrow.
bryan callen
Let's just pause for a second.
joe rogan
That's when I got it.
bryan callen
Let's have a moment of silence for that.
joe rogan
Jamie sent it to me.
Jamie was the first one to send it to me, and then my wife sent it to me.
And I was like, oh, fuck it.
Actually, no, my wife was first and Jamie was second.
Sorry, dude.
She got you.
But it was very close.
It was basically both of them sent it to me.
And I had bare blood on my clothes, and we were stopping into this town to go on a dock to catch some walleye in Northern Pike.
bryan callen
Just as manly as it gets.
joe rogan
Yeah, I was doing man shit.
For real man shit, you know?
Eat meat or don't eat meat, but if you are going to eat meat, you really can't be upset at people hunting.
You really can't.
Because it's exciting, and it's a huge discipline, and the food is amazing.
The meat that you get from wild game is so much better.
bryan callen
It also, the money that parks make from hunting and basically...
joe rogan
Well, the Wildlife Federation.
Yes.
Fish and wildlife.
bryan callen
Helps preserve a great deal of habitat for animals.
joe rogan
It preserves more habitat for animals because of hunting than anything else.
The conservation aspect of hunting is totally overlooked because people want to look at hunters like there's some evil person.
We live in this really fucked up, contradictory society where every day you're driving down the street, you're passing by gas stations that are filled with meat snacks.
Disgusting meat that's ground up into some fucking goofy hamburger and frozen and you microwave it.
It's all that shit.
Those bean and beef burritos they sell.
What is that?
That's murdered animals that were ground up.
bryan callen
They come from three different countries sometimes that were killed six months ago.
joe rogan
Oh, easily.
Easily.
Who knows how long that shit's been frozen for.
And nobody seems to...
It doesn't seem to phase anyone.
You know, you walk into a supermarket, you're passing by just rows and rows of meat.
Every McDonald's, every jack-in-the-box is meat, meat, meat, meat, meat.
But we're completely disconnected from it.
By living in this...
I think cities are awesome, by the way.
And you know when I really started to appreciate cities?
When you and I started going on these trips.
When you and I went to Montana, or even better recently, like a perfect example, when we did that Prince of Wales show, we went on to Prince of Wales Island, we got rained on every fucking day for five days, and when we came back to L.A., it was amazing.
I loved this place so much.
The sun felt so good.
bryan callen
It's one of the greatest messages I've ever gotten from you.
I just get this random message.
Hey...
Hey, hey, it's Joe.
Hey, do you feel really great?
I feel fucking amazing.
I don't know if you do, but I feel fucking amazing, man.
How do you feel?
Do you feel amazing?
I don't fucking know what he's talking about.
joe rogan
I felt like I was on drugs.
Like, coming back from that rainy, miserable, cold five days to coming back to LA felt like I was on drugs.
bryan callen
It was because I realized that like we had a first of all we had a great time being rainy and miserable laughing our asses off It was moving when I saw Steve Rinald at the end of that say, you know, I kind of miss Brian and Joe's Comedy because being up here alone.
There's a profound sadness I feel I feel that way to actually did you feel that like very sad I feel so sad when I look out I maybe I feel so alone or I feel like What it would be like to live in such solitude and such silence all the time.
joe rogan
Well, it's totally humbling.
It's totally humbling.
And I feel like I might be totally bullshitting here, okay?
And I'm willing to admit that.
But I feel like when, even if I'm in a beautiful park-like setting, like if you go to Griffiths Park and you're sitting up in there, even if you find yourself a swath of land where all you see is trees and you're sitting down, there's still...
There's a feeling in the air of civilization and the feeling in the air of civilization I don't know if it's Wi-Fi signals or radio signals or television signals or cellular signals I don't I don't know if it's an actual physical thing I don't know if there's a feeling that you get obviously you can't tune into someone's cell phone with your fucking brain but are you aware in some sort of weird peripheral sense That all these signals are around you all the time.
I don't know, but I know that it feels totally different to be outside on a mountain in Prince of Wales.
There's a feeling in the air, and there's this, first of all, this very humbling, absolute, undeniable realization that not only are you not special, but that this part of the world does not give a fuck about you and will forget about you the moment you stop existing.
bryan callen
You're so insignificant.
joe rogan
So insignificant.
bryan callen
You're so insignificant, and I think a lot of my sadness came from feeling like being on par with a tree next to me.
I'm that anonymous, I'm that insignificant, and there's nothing around here that cares about me.
Maybe that's an egocentric way to look at it, but it certainly was very real and felt that way.
And I just, I don't know, it's...
joe rogan
Maybe that's what it is.
I think you're supposed to experience that.
I think it keeps people in line.
I think there's two things that we fucked up on as a race.
Well, many things, obviously.
But two things that we fucked up on that are rarely discussed.
And I think one of them is that we have almost a built-in need to be around nature.
And when you're around nature, you get feelings from that experience that are not...
They're not described enough.
They're not expanded upon enough.
They're not endorsed and appreciated enough.
I think it's an integral part of being a person.
And I think that when we're spending all of our times in these hard surfaces and these straight lines and these things that we create, I just do not think it's good for you.
I think your body's not designed for it.
I think there's some reward systems that you get from being out in these solitary environments.
bryan callen
It's certainly what most of our history is.
Very little stimulus.
If you think about the amount of stimulus, auditory and visual stimulus, you deal with Every day, from just blinking lights, all the things you see.
Our very recent ancestors were not ever exposed to that.
They say sometimes that we're exposed to more stimulus in a day than some of our ancestors were their whole life, in terms of how predictable, still, expansive their lives were, where you couldn't venture too far.
The other thing about where we were, especially in Prince of Wales Island, was that not even Native Americans would go up there.
In fact, even animals would be like, you know what, too rainy up here, we're gonna go down below.
So we were kind of truly where no one in their right mind would go.
joe rogan
Except Ranella, he's a fucking maniac.
bryan callen
The mountain goat.
joe rogan
He's a fucking maniac, that dude.
Like a legit maniac.
bryan callen
The long-suffering mountain goat.
joe rogan
Waiting to get clawed by a grizzly.
Remember, that was one of the first things he told me.
How'd I get clawed, like, right across the chest?
Like, right here?
I was like, what the fuck are you talking about, man?
If that happens, you're most likely dead.
bryan callen
He's amazing.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
I wonder if he feels differently now that he got run over by a moose.
Did you ever see that episode?
I didn't see that episode.
Where the moose got him?
bryan callen
Yeah.
joe rogan
Fucked.
Moose charged him and got behind him and fucking nailed him in the ass.
bryan callen
They're not friendly animals.
joe rogan
He already shot it.
bryan callen
He already shot it?
joe rogan
Yeah, it was down and wounded and he walked up on a wounded moose and it ran at him and his gun misfired.
unidentified
Wow.
joe rogan
Dude.
Yeah, dude.
I mean, that's death.
I mean, you could really easily get stomped to death.
bryan callen
Yeah.
joe rogan
If I had...
Just watching the video, I did not have a sense of how truly big they are.
When you see one in real life...
bryan callen
Yeah, I have.
joe rogan
And I had not seen one.
I don't think I had seen one before I hunted them.
Maybe I have.
Oh, no, I have, for sure.
bryan callen
Well, that leg you're carrying.
joe rogan
No, I have for sure, because I was with Ari, and we took pictures of them in Alaska, but it was females.
I hadn't seen one with the full antlers before.
It was in the summer, and it was females.
And they were really, really, really big, but the ones that we saw when we were in B.C., like, fucking Christ.
bryan callen
God.
joe rogan
Just think about shooting that thing, and this is where Rinella was in B.C., too.
bryan callen
Yeah.
joe rogan
Shooting that thing, and then it stomps you.
bryan callen
Yeah, no thanks.
joe rogan
Fuck, man.
They're so goddamn big.
bryan callen
Yeah.
joe rogan
The one I got was 900 pounds.
The one my friend Ben O'Brien got was 1,400 pounds.
bryan callen
God!
1,400 pounds!
joe rogan
1,400 pounds.
bryan callen
I think a horse, the average horse weighs like...
joe rogan
1100. Dude, it was so big.
bryan callen
Jesus.
joe rogan
He walked out into the road in front of us, and the charge that you get, the adrenaline charge, when you see one, you're like, Jesus!
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
They didn't even look real.
They were both the same size.
They were both these enormous bachelors.
It was right after they had got done rutting.
And so they were just eating like crazy.
They were just starved because they've been fucking for weeks and weeks and weeks.
And they walked out into the middle of the road, and we slammed the brakes in the car, and you look at them like, God!
Their body was bigger than the top of the truck.
It was like up to like the windshield area of the truck.
unidentified
Jesus.
joe rogan
They're insane how big they are.
bryan callen
By the way, we were talking about your first reaction to Caitlyn Jenner.
unidentified
Yeah, no, no.
joe rogan
I'm gonna get back to that.
bryan callen
Oh, you are?
joe rogan
Yeah.
bryan callen
Alright.
joe rogan
The other thing that I was gonna say is I think we are...
And I want this to be like...
I'm trying to be as objective about this as possible.
And I'm trying to be as sensitive about this as possible.
But I think...
I think all this move towards the feminine and demonizing masculine behavior and all of this Appreciation for marginalized people is all it's all awesome.
I really think it's important I think people go too crazy with it and they attack people that would ordinarily be their allies But I think that what all this is Doing like the reason why this move towards acceptance is happening is because I think we're evolving and I think that as people are evolving as we realize that there really is no Right or wrong way to live and if Bruce Jenner wants to be a woman now who gives a fuck?
He should totally be a woman I think this is this is all a positive thing and it's all moving towards some softer style of being a human being and It probably won't be within our lifetime, but I think several lifetimes from now People are probably going to be way kinder on a regular basis than they are right now.
I think they're way kinder today than they've ever been before.
bryan callen
No doubt.
joe rogan
Way more aware of things now than they've ever been before.
bryan callen
Easier to empathize because we have too much information to know how similar we are to, say, a white guy is to a Chinese person to a black person.
It's just...
joe rogan
Right.
bryan callen
It's hard to deny that.
You rarely see somebody arguing that.
joe rogan
And this is where I think the divide comes in.
There's an anti-masculinity feeling.
And like that, you know, men who are into things are jocks and meatheads and assholes.
And if you're into sports or martial arts or other, somehow or another, because you embrace this, it excites you and you enjoy it.
And you surround yourself with other people that also enjoy it.
There must be something wrong with you.
You must be a mean person.
Like, just because you're masculine, you must be mean.
I reject that outright.
So do I. I think it's ridiculous.
That also, you must be insensitive and cruel.
I reject that as well outright.
It's not true.
It's not true.
You can be masculine and be very sensitive.
Dude, I had to do this fucking thing for the UFC yesterday, where it was a speech about the Hall of Fame, and Jeff Blatnick is getting into the Hall of Fame, and Jeff Blatnick He was an Olympic gold medalist, beat Alexander Carellin in Greco-Roman.
He was this amazing guy.
And I started crying.
I was like, I had to stop myself from crying when I was talking about this guy because he beat cancer and won a gold medal.
And then he was like really nice to me, man.
Like when I first started working for the UFC. I remember that.
bryan callen
I remember Big Jeff.
joe rogan
He was a great guy.
I'm a bitch, dude.
I cry all the time.
I'm emotional about a lot of shit all the time, man.
A movie or even some songs will get me.
I'll be in my car and a song will make me fucking cry.
bryan callen
Yep.
joe rogan
It doesn't mean because someone embraces masculine activities whether it's martial arts or whether it's Hunting or anything it doesn't mean that that person is going to be homophobic It doesn't mean that that person is going to be a negative person or but there's this push I think because of What's happening now with all this,
our society's movement towards civilization, movement towards a much more non-violent life, although the awareness of rape, man, there had to have been a lot of rape going on in college when I was young, but I never fucking heard about it.
But all you're hearing about, like, on a constant basis is the amount of sexual violence that takes place in colleges.
And some people are saying they're overreacting, this, that, but it's good.
Like, it's all this trend of, like, recognizing...
bryan callen
Giving the voiceless voice.
joe rogan
Yes, and recognizing that what is important here?
Is it the style of life?
Is it the style of life you live?
Should I be mad at you if you wear a dress?
No!
I should be mad at you if you rape people that wear dresses.
I should be mad at you if you beat people up because you don't like the way they look.
Someone on Twitter today, some trans woman had a black eye and she made some tweet about it.
I forget her name.
I don't follow her.
I just clicked on a link and I found it.
And some guy punched her for being a transgender person.
bryan callen
Yeah, Kristen Beck was on our podcast on Fighter and Kid and talked about getting beat up just because she walked by some guys.
Seal Team Six Command though, and they had hair from behind, but that's an everyday reality.
An everyday reality.
And a very, very short time ago, and I'm talking about less than 15 years ago in our lifetime, any of those derogatory words like fag, faggot, making fun of gay people was an acceptable prejudice.
You heard it all the time.
All of us said it because you just made fun of people.
joe rogan
Well, how about, like, you go listen to, like, some old Eddie Murphy.
Listen to Eddie Murphy Raw.
unidentified
Oh, my God.
bryan callen
Oh, my God.
Yeah, it's crazy.
Meanwhile...
joe rogan
It's, like, really, like, hate speech.
bryan callen
Yeah, yeah.
Meanwhile, he likes...
joe rogan
Allegedly.
bryan callen
Yeah.
unidentified
Allegedly.
bryan callen
Yeah.
joe rogan
Well, you know what they say.
unidentified
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
bryan callen
Well, but, you know, what you're talking about also is like Matthew Arnold, who was this awesome sort of philosopher, romantic, and he said, yes, the United States is the, and forgive me if it's not Matthew Arnold, I'm almost positive, but he says, yes, the United States is a very powerful country with the biggest guns and a roaring stock market and the National Football League.
But somewhere along the line, if you embrace all of that, you'll forget to be interesting.
And you have to remember as a country, as a society, that you must make place for the gentler spirits.
For your artists, for your quote-unquote weirdos.
For your dreamers, for your wonderers, and I think that's to our credit, that it does create more beauty, it does create more diversity, it creates more interesting innovation when people who don't have the biggest muscles feel safe, feel like they have a voice, feel like they have somewhere to go if they get beat up.
You have a society where muscles and guns, i.e.
Rome, i.e.
Russia, Yeah, where muscles and guns rule the roost, and that's most of the world, by the way.
joe rogan
How about all these guys that are getting beaten up in Russia for being gay?
bryan callen
Yeah.
joe rogan
It's like really common shit.
bryan callen
Exactly.
So anytime most societies concern themselves almost exclusively with how to control their populations, whether they do it through sheer force like Russia does, or whether they do it through religion like Saudi Arabia does, those countries essentially practice a form of apartheid.
And what I mean by that is that 50% of their population At least, to say nothing of the gay people and the different people and the transgender people, those people are so marginalized and they're wasted because they're put in one place and they're told to do just a couple of things that have been allowed by this male architecture, this male scaffolding that's been put in place and been there forever.
And it just stifles spirit.
It stifles Ingenuity, creativity, and most of all, it stifles the truth.
And in that sense, you know, of course there's a place for these people and these societies have evolved, and there's a lot of great things about Russian society and Saudi society and everything else, but that's an important aspect to keep in mind.
That's an important thing, and that's what I think this movement is a positive thing.
joe rogan
Well, it's about information.
You know, these people have a voice now, and you start thinking of them as people, as opposed to, like, transgender people never had a community before.
I mean, how would they have to find other transgender people and hang out with them?
It would be very difficult to get that going.
You know, now you meet online, you have these forums, you have Twitter and things along those lines.
Like, people from any weird, generally marginalized part of society can find a community now.
bryan callen
Nick Schwartzen did this joke.
I believe it's on his special, so I'm not adding it.
He goes, before the internet, if you had a fetish, it kind of sucked because you kind of had to kind of try it out on the person.
You'd be at dinner and you'd be like, all right, I'm going to go to the bathroom.
joe rogan
Don't do his joke on the air.
bryan callen
I think he's already done this.
joe rogan
Okay.
unidentified
Yeah.
bryan callen
I wouldn't otherwise, but he goes, well, I'm going to go to the bathroom or I could piss on your face.
Just kidding.
Just kidding.
unidentified
I was like, that's so fucking true.
bryan callen
That's so true.
You had to find it.
But my feeling with the Caitlyn Jenner thing was only that I kind of felt like there are two things that go on in my mind now with this.
One is that I found that he was, she was now, looked like, I have a bit of 35, not 65. That was good Photoshop.
joe rogan
Well, you know, the other thing is he underwent a 12-hour surgery to more feminize his face.
Apparently, up until now, he preferred the he pronoun.
I don't know if he's saying she now.
bryan callen
I believe she is.
It's Miss Jenner, if you don't mind.
joe rogan
She?
bryan callen
Yeah.
joe rogan
Is that what you're saying?
bryan callen
I'm saying she.
And again, by the way, your face and your tone, I must piggyback because the thing that I resent a little bit...
A little bit.
He said, I'm not even allowed to think it's a little weird and a little strange.
joe rogan
Exactly!
bryan callen
And I do find it a little weird and a little strange.
unidentified
Of course it's weird.
bryan callen
I'm allowed to.
I've known him as Bruce Jenner.
And by the way, I wish I had his body because I'd be ridiculous.
No, you don't.
No, not now.
unidentified
No.
bryan callen
Just before.
joe rogan
Jesus, even before.
Did you ever see him walking around Malibu?
It's a disaster.
bryan callen
Was it?
It's a fucking harbor of neglect.
Oh, he didn't.
joe rogan
Yeah, but the whole thing is falling apart.
bryan callen
He was taking estrogen, dude.
Give him a break.
joe rogan
How long was he doing that for?
bryan callen
Apparently for a very long time.
joe rogan
Really?
bryan callen
Yes.
joe rogan
Like how long?
bryan callen
I heard 20 years or something.
unidentified
20 years.
bryan callen
Yeah, something crazy.
Jesus Christ.
He was letting that beautiful machine.
He was just putting on a layer of feminine fat, and that's fine.
unidentified
Whoa.
bryan callen
But am I bad?
I'm not a bad person.
You know I support anybody.
I protect him.
I protect anybody's right to do what they want like that.
But I'm allowed to feel it's a little strange.
I'm allowed to kind of go, I have to call him Miss now.
joe rogan
Well, he got a boob job, right?
unidentified
Yeah.
bryan callen
That's weird.
I'm just thinking about it.
He's got kids, and I feel for his kids.
I'm sure they're accepting or whatever, but it's got to be weird.
Even Kristen Beck said, it is weird.
I can't even figure it out myself.
I don't know.
It is weird.
joe rogan
It's definitely weird.
And I think that anything that you can't make fun of is bullshit.
If you can't make fun of it, you can make fun of everything.
You can make fun of politics, you can make fun of sex, you can make fun of gender, you can make fun of transgender, you can make fun of everything.
Don't say you can't make fun of it, because that's nonsense.
Then you're losing out on free speech.
And by the way, the best way, the best way to...
Marginalize something is to not be allowed to talk about it.
You change the thing.
You make it a sacred thing.
You don't make it a thing that you could talk about and discuss.
So you don't even know if the thing that you're talking about, if it's honest.
Are we being honest about what is happening here?
Because for every person who does everything in life that's weird, there's going to be people that love it, and there's going to be people that hate it.
But you don't know what it is until everybody sits down and talks about it.
Like, why does this kid want so much fucking attention?
Oh, he's an attention whore.
And we figure it out.
We all discuss it.
When it comes to sexual things, sexual aspects of behavior, then we get ultra super sensitive.
We get really sensitive.
unidentified
It's really interesting.
joe rogan
Much more sensitive than anything else we do, whether it's behavior, whether it's occupation.
When you get down to sexual and gender things, people are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Don't talk about that.
You can make fun of lawyers all you want.
You're probably going to need lawyers, but you can make all the dead lawyer jokes you fucking want.
You could throw lawyers in the bottom of the ocean.
You could talk about gunning them all down the streets like dogs.
You could be a fucking blogger, like the Huffington Post, and you should say, damn the lawyers, we should gun them down like dogs.
And you could say that, and no one is going to get angry at you, and no one's going to march against you, and no one's going to call you lawyer-phobic.
bryan callen
There's a blog called Kill All the Lawyers.
joe rogan
There you go.
Now, imagine if you said, kill all the transgender people.
Like, whoa.
What if a transgender dude sucked your dick, and you found out about it, and you were really mad, so you started to blog, kill all the transgenders?
Like, what the fuck, man?
No, people would freak out.
Because when you want to kill somebody based on sex or gender, if you have anger towards them because of sex or gender, it becomes very charged.
Very charged.
bryan callen
Did I mention that there was a guy in my acting class who used to dress in drag?
Very beautiful.
joe rogan
Amazing.
bryan callen
Was very elegant and I always...
joe rogan
Elegance is a good word for a dude.
bryan callen
He was an elegant man and one day he goes, he looked at me and I had done a scene in acting class and he said, that was sexy baby.
And I go, oh yeah, you think so?
I go, you better watch out.
And he goes, you better watch out.
I put your dick and balls in my mouth.
joe rogan
Yeah, he told me this.
bryan callen
And he just turned on me.
I was like, what?
I put them all in my mouth.
unidentified
Whoa!
bryan callen
I thought I talked about it on my podcast.
I put your dick and balls in my mouth.
Oh, that's a lot of...
That's okay.
That's impressive.
It's probably hurt my balls, but...
joe rogan
Yeah, that wouldn't be comfortable.
I don't think so.
You'd feel his teeth for sure.
bryan callen
His mouth was very normal size, by the way.
I took a look.
joe rogan
Maybe he's, like, snaky.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Like, stretched out ligaments or some shit.
bryan callen
He ended up being, actually.
We dated for a while.
joe rogan
Whoa!
bryan callen
See?
How I turned that?
joe rogan
Hey!
What did you just do?
But there's a weird charge.
Racial hate is very similar in a way.
There's a lot of charge to racial hate, but there's some racial hate you can kind of get away with.
Black people can say some pretty nasty shit about white people, and we let it slide.
I saw this guy's Twitter, some Spanish guy.
He's a journalist, and he's like, I'm happy when all white shows get canceled.
I'm like, could you imagine if someone said that about black shows?
bryan callen
Yeah.
joe rogan
You can't.
You know, it's because there's enough white shows.
bryan callen
But that's also because there's so many white shows.
joe rogan
Yeah, because it's an overpopulation.
But the point being, it's like, you know, Cain Velasquez has this brown pride shirt or brown pride tattoo.
bryan callen
He couldn't have white power on your shirt.
joe rogan
He has, well, pride.
He has brown pride tattooed on his chest.
If you had white pride tattooed on your chest, you would never be able to fight in the UFC. True.
It's interesting.
bryan callen
You definitely have to explain yourself.
joe rogan
Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's wrong, because I think the sentiment behind it is right.
The sentiment behind it is that, like, why are you proud about being white?
We're everywhere.
Relax.
Just relax.
bryan callen
We have the power.
joe rogan
Exactly.
bryan callen
Relax.
joe rogan
And why are you upset that he's proud that he's Mexican?
Relax.
But it's a double standard.
It is absolutely a double standard, but it's the correct one.
It's interesting.
Yeah.
That's why things can't be cut and dry.
It can't be the same for everybody.
Because it's just not the same for everybody.
bryan callen
It's not.
And what's interesting is that white, I would imagine, I think when California couldn't pass that proposition on gay marriage, A lot of the opposition came from the black and brown communities, because especially the Latino communities are very religious.
joe rogan
Well, Hari Shafir had a great joke about it.
unidentified
Oh, he did?
joe rogan
Yeah, he had a great joke about it.
He's dead right that African Americans voted, like, it was a disproportionate amount that voted against gay marriage.
bryan callen
Yeah.
But, again, that can be grounded in religion, that can be grounded in tradition, all those things.
joe rogan
Yeah, fear, you know, but there's a lot of nonsense when it comes to that stuff.
And I think all that's, like, again, that's starting to dissolve.
I think it's starting to dissolve.
And I think even, like, the backlash that people are getting for, you know, like, I guess the UFC is a big one.
That's a big target.
I hear about that all the time, like the anti-violence aspect of it or anything else that people enjoy that is very violent, whether it's football or any other contact sport.
There's a lot of people that really resist it and think that it's detrimental to society.
And I think contrary.
I think it's actually very good for it.
bryan callen
I worry more about whenever you're trying to empower a group of people very vocally and with great energy.
Sometimes what I worry about is, and it happens all the time, is you end up being somewhat tyrannical to another group of people.
Those people that might not understand what you're doing.
Those people that have religious reservations to what you're doing.
Or whatever their reasons, or just it doesn't sit right with them, or they think it's weird, or they think it's unnatural.
I was talking to a 77-year-old man about this Bruce Jenner thing, and he's a good man.
And he goes, it's unnatural.
We're celebrating the unnatural.
That's what he thought.
joe rogan
But it's not unnatural.
bryan callen
I'm not saying it is.
I'm just saying.
joe rogan
But what I'm saying about it is, it occurs enough.
bryan callen
Right.
joe rogan
So that you know it's not unnatural.
bryan callen
It's just unusual.
It's a bad argument anyway.
I didn't get into it with him.
What I'm saying is that everybody has their point of view.
And sometimes, for example, I think, if you look at TV and stuff, I actually think we've become very intolerant of male behavior, not just the traditional prototypical masculine behaviors, but sexual behavior as well.
So I think a lot of men are really afraid to sound even remotely like they like having sex.
A lot with different women, even if they're single, because they'll be called a creep.
They'll be called a scumbag.
They'll be called all these things.
That used to be something that was actually celebrated.
And if you look at TV, a lot of TV shows, especially mainstream TV, If a guy's on that show and he has, I don't know, God forbid he's got a girlfriend and another girlfriend.
Forget that.
But if he has five different women that he's sleeping with, you don't see that often.
You just don't see...
Because we know a lot of guys, especially when we were younger, who were that kind of masculine bent that put up a lot of numbers.
You don't see...
I haven't seen too many of those characters on mainstream TV. And if you do...
They are crucified.
They're just dirtbags.
And I think that's interesting.
I don't think that used to be the case as much.
I think that a lot of men are afraid to talk about sex the way women have for a long time.
joe rogan
Well, it's the same thing.
Because women have been more marginalized.
Their sexuality has been more of something to be ashamed of.
If they're sluts.
Like, Kim Cattrall from that Sex and the City, she was a very loose woman.
She was out there running around all willy-nilly, having sex with a bunch of different gentlemen.
I mean, but that was celebrated.
Like, she was empowered.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Because she was this cougar.
She was on top, right?
Yeah, she's running around fucking all these guys and sucking their dicks in bathrooms, doing a bunch of dirty, naughty shit, and it was great.
But if there was a show about a guy who did that with a bunch of women and then thought less of the women after he was done with them, you would go, what a piece of shit.
unidentified
That's what I mean.
joe rogan
He wants to watch this show.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
So what a woman could do by getting done with guys, fucking them and tossing them aside, no one cares.
There's virtually no backlash whatsoever.
But if a man has the exact same behavior, he's a piece of shit.
It's fascinating.
It is fascinating.
Because with the woman, we're essentially watching like a superhero.
We're watching a woman who's turned the tables.
Now, she's the predator and the men are the prey.
Yeah, you go, girl.
You get them.
And after they're done, throw their phone away.
Delete all of their text messages from your phone.
Delete their number and never call them again.
Fuck him.
Move on, girl.
She becomes this...
If a woman did that to a man, he'd be like, oh, wow.
Or a man did that to a woman.
He'd be like, God, what a dick that guy is.
bryan callen
But again, that's artificial.
That's not natural.
That's kind of a lie, too.
That's kind of where...
unidentified
It's not.
joe rogan
There's girls out there like that.
bryan callen
Of course there are.
I'm saying that when that's kind of like...
When it's suggested that that's how women really are, all of all women, you go, well, we're a lot more complicated than that.
And not really.
joe rogan
Well, I think...
If I had a friend that got done over by a girl like Kim Cattrall and she never called back, I would laugh my dick off.
I would think it would be so funny.
I would talk to him about it every day.
I'd be like, so she never called you again?
Never called you, she just dumped you?
Like, it would be funny to guys.
Guys would laugh about it.
bryan callen
Sure, I've had it done to me!
I had it done to myself, to me, maybe three times, one by a pretty famous woman.
And I was like, excuse me?
I was like, how dare you?
You don't want more of this?
joe rogan
They get tired of you, man.
They get tired of your bullshit.
That's normal, too.
bryan callen
Or they just got tired of me in general, in bed.
joe rogan
To get back to that Bruce Jenner thing, the Caitlyn, whatever he's going to call himself.
bryan callen
Call him Cal Herb.
joe rogan
I don't even know how much is true and how much is not true, because I was listening to this radio show and they were talking about how he underwent a 12-hour surgery to change his face, more feminize it.
I do not know if that is the truth or not.
But, who cares?
That's my take on it.
My take on it is, I think it's cute.
I think, you know, let him do whatever he wants to do.
I mean, he's not interesting to me.
He's not interesting to me.
bryan callen
Isn't he getting the Arthur Ashe Award at the ESPYs for Courage?
joe rogan
Okay.
Well, it's kind of courageous, but it's not like it's not a person that's been seeking attention by any means necessary for a long time.
It's not like we're now talking about a guy who was on a reality show for a long fucking time.
bryan callen
That's what I mean.
And now this is a reality show.
joe rogan
Well, it's also...
It's like we're not being honest about...
The gentleman in question.
unidentified
Exactly.
joe rogan
Or the woman in question.
bryan callen
So that's what I felt when I saw him on the cover of Vanity Fair with that airbrushed and everything.
I went, more power to you if you want to do that, but that feels a little bit like spectacle.
joe rogan
Yeah.
I mean, what does he do?
He just lives this nonsense life on television.
I mean, this is a guy that we're celebrating.
The only thing that's interesting is that he doesn't want to be a man anymore.
That's the interesting aspect of him.
Everything outside of that is not interesting.
He lives this really bizarre life.
I just can't imagine anybody who didn't need it want to live like that.
When you have a microscope up your ass on this weird show, and you're living out these false scenarios that are planned by producers.
So, today, we went to try to figure out what's wrong with the washing machine.
The fuck you did?
You know?
This is all nonsense.
You know it's nonsense.
So this guy's been on this nonsense show for X amount of years, just...
It's a really bizarre way to put yourself out there, right?
And then he decides that he's a woman, and that becomes the most interesting aspect of him.
Way more interesting than anything that he had ever done before, other than win the gold medal in the decathlon.
He was a great athlete.
But nobody cared.
Everybody wanted to pay attention to his daughter.
Everybody wanted to pay attention to the mom.
And Bruce Jenner was this poor, sad character that was hanging around the show that I always just think was emasculated.
I love that bit you do.
The new bit?
bryan callen
Dude.
joe rogan
Don't tell anybody.
bryan callen
I won't, but he did a bit.
By the way, thanks for opening for me.
My boy Joe Rogan drives all the way down on No Sleep and opened both shows for me.
Talk about a friend.
Meanwhile, that bit, I had to go on and do an hour after you, and I was like, that is a hell of a bit.
joe rogan
Oh, thanks, man.
bryan callen
Dude!
joe rogan
It's better today.
bryan callen
I knew, because it's so new, and I wonder what this is going to really turn into.
joe rogan
It's good.
I enjoy doing it, because it's got so much going on to it.
bryan callen
It took me out of my show, but it helped me, too.
I'd rather watch this right now.
joe rogan
That was fun.
The taping of your show was excellent.
bryan callen
It went well.
joe rogan
It was really fun.
bryan callen
Thanks, everybody, for coming down.
joe rogan
It was so cool.
So, back to the Bruce Jenner thing.
I think if it encourages more people to do that, if that's their real calling, great.
Great.
I know people that change genders and they're very happy.
That's totally possible.
It's totally possible.
bryan callen
The biggest thing, too, is that apparently the suicide rate for kids who feel this way is very high.
Like, according to Kristen Beck, it's 45% of something crazy.
joe rogan
Fuck, man.
unidentified
Yeah.
bryan callen
Fuck.
joe rogan
It's just hard.
It's hard to be a normal person.
Hard to be a person like a normal white male in America who's not poor.
Just a normal middle of the world person.
It's very difficult.
So imagine being marginalized.
I mean, imagine.
Just imagine.
bryan callen
Already there are just a group of people you've never met who hate your guts.
And actually some who would actually kill you.
joe rogan
Well, you can feel that.
There's certain neighborhoods where you can go in there as a white man, and you'll be a victim.
You'll be like an instant victim.
They'll target you.
I mean, there's parts of the world where that's absolutely true.
There's parts of America, I'm sure, where that's absolutely true.
But overwhelmingly, you got it easy as fuck.
bryan callen
Easy as fuck.
joe rogan
So, when you have it easy as fuck, sometimes I think it's easy to take for granted someone who doesn't.
Not necessarily saying that Bruce Jenner didn't have it easy.
Because, you know, you watch him on that show, he's not struggling.
He's just being weird.
bryan callen
No.
joe rogan
You know, but there's people in this world that are going through all sorts of pain for no fault of their own.
They're just born in a shitty household.
They're just born with the wrong human beings guarding over them and raising them and communicating with them and they're fucked from birth.
And that's something that nobody wants to admit.
bryan callen
Well, that's also kind of always how I've looked at things where I was born on third base and told to run home.
You know, I'm a white American male in 2015 who gets paid and good looking.
I got a ridiculous jawline, shredded, and I get paid to make people laugh.
I mean, I get paid to make people laugh and I'm healthy.
joe rogan
What's attractive about people that have a situation like that is that you're appreciating it.
When we talk to comics that whine about how many shows they have to do or that they can't get the sitcom made or they can't...
Man, it's fucking business.
I'm just tired.
Fucking agents.
I have those conversations with people.
I'm like, you're exhausting.
bryan callen
Lack of perspective.
joe rogan
You're exhausting.
bryan callen
Pick up a history book or a newspaper.
joe rogan
Also, I think people are in this weird position.
Actors are perpetually in this position.
And comics are in this position to a certain extent because they want to have sitcoms and things along those lines.
You have to be chosen.
Someone has to say, I'm going to hire Brian Callen for my show and we're going to make him a star.
Whereas, what's going on now, for the first time ever, is people are doing podcasts that are turning them into famous people.
You guys are famous from that fucking podcast.
unidentified
It's crazy.
joe rogan
The Fighter and the Kid is a giant podcast.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
I mean, you were already famous before that, and Shaub is already famous for the UFC, but there's a coalescence.
There's this crazy energy behind you guys in that show that I see all the time.
When I was opening for you on your show, when you were filming your comedy special, the audience was filled with those Fighter and the Kid shirts.
bryan callen
Crazy.
joe rogan
I saw, I don't know how many I saw, but I saw all the different models, all the different ones you have.
And so I think what a guy like you gets to do that a lot of guys don't have that opportunity is you get to just be yourself.
You get to be yourself.
bryan callen
That's right.
joe rogan
And you don't have to worry about the decisions of these other people that are trying to cast you or no deals to me.
That's where all the frustration seems to come from.
Those guys, it's all about dealing with other people.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
And that's what acting is all the time.
What acting is all the time is getting chosen.
bryan callen
Yeah.
When you can become autonomous- And saying somebody else's words, wearing somebody else's clothes in somebody else's story.
joe rogan
If you can become autonomous and you can get away from anybody else's opinions and ideas that they have to throw them into the soup, then you're truly responsible for your own work.
And when you're truly responsible for whatever the fuck you're actually doing, then you have a totally different kind of connection to it.
So these guys, they get angry about the business, about the way the business is changing in a weird way.
If you enjoy being a comic, you really don't have to do anything else anymore.
Back in the day, it was just like, boy, I hope I can keep this comedy thing afloat until I get that sitcom.
Everybody wanted to get that sitcom.
bryan callen
Remember that?
joe rogan
Yeah, that's all anybody wanted.
bryan callen
I know.
It was the end of the Holy Grail.
joe rogan
We would get mad when actors would fake it.
You know, actors would put together some bullshit, fucking generic act.
bryan callen
Yeah.
joe rogan
And you knew that all they had was this seven minutes that they were faking to try to get on a sitcom.
unidentified
Yep.
joe rogan
And everybody was like, yeah, he's an actor.
He's just an actor.
He's an actor faking it.
We had these weird distinctions.
But the guy's up there doing stand-up with some stand-up that he wrote, but nope, nope, he's faking.
bryan callen
Nah, he's faking.
It's for acting.
It's just for acting.
Like the end result.
joe rogan
Well, you would get these people that would go up there and do that, and you really could see that they were like Tom Hanks in Punchline.
bryan callen
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
joe rogan
They're like acting like a stand-up.
But then it's like, well, who the fuck should you be able to make...
Who are you to make that distinction?
bryan callen
Yeah.
joe rogan
You know, why should you be able to make the distinction?
bryan callen
Funny's funny.
joe rogan
Funny's funny, right?
So how can you decide that he's not a real stand-up because he...
bryan callen
Wanted to put together seven minutes you used to always tell me to stand up I worked so hard at acting remember how hard like I'd be in class and I just worked at it and I would do scenes and I would cry and I And then I just I don't know man.
It's what happened is I just when I got a taste of real stand-up Mm-hmm and then with the podcast and then I was like man I gotta go where I got to drive where and sit on a set for how long would do five minutes of acting it's if people saw how movies are made I think they'd have a lot less reference for the entire process.
joe rogan
If people saw how Cole was pulled out of the ground, I think they'd appreciate it more.
bryan callen
I agree.
joe rogan
Than just going and buying it.
bryan callen
That's right.
Cole would be on the cover of People magazine.
joe rogan
Yeah, it's just I don't enjoy the process.
I don't enjoy the process and I don't enjoy some of the actors.
I've met a lot of actors that are cool as fuck.
But there's a lot of them that are a lot of fucking work.
Like a brutal amount of work.
Communicating with them is very frustrating.
And they're stressed out all the time.
They're in this thing where they're always trying to get approved.
They're always trying to get cast.
bryan callen
And you've got to create a network that way.
unidentified
You have to.
bryan callen
You know, you're selling yourself.
And it's not easy.
joe rogan
And you're selling yourself as being exactly like everybody else.
I mean, there's like a hum that they all have.
They all have the same frequency hum.
They try to stay on that frequency.
They don't vary because they want those jobs.
They want to be...
They don't even have their own political opinions a lot of the times.
They just absorb this left-wing ideology that seems to be floating around Hollywood.
unidentified
Yep.
bryan callen
Yep.
I know.
joe rogan
It's a weird place, man.
It's a weird place.
unidentified
But I think it's fucking changing in a big way, man.
bryan callen
What was the internet?
joe rogan
Podcasting?
I think everything's changing.
I think we're going to look back.
I think we're in the middle of the storm, and I don't think we quite realize how significant some of the changes in culture have been.
bryan callen
Well, they always say that when people are in an epoch, when they're in a changing movement, like...
People who were coming into the Renaissance didn't know they were in the Renaissance, didn't call it the Renaissance, didn't know that there was something called the Renaissance or that they were even in the Dark Ages before that.
So there are countless examples of that where this is the most important date.
They weren't aware of that.
They weren't aware of the Bronze Age, then the Metal Age and all that.
So you're living your life and those kinds of forces and trends and movements are more subtle than that.
joe rogan
Yeah, I think this one, though, is so crazy that it reveals a lot about the nature of recognition.
Meaning, like, recognizing when things are weird.
Because I don't think we're recognizing it nearly as much as it deserves.
bryan callen
What do you mean?
joe rogan
Well, I think that people get used to things.
It's like if you go, like, Justin Wren, the UFC fighter.
He's been on this podcast a bunch of times.
He does the Fight for Forgotten.
Foundation that he created to go and build wells for the pygmies, you know, he goes down there and builds these pygmies these wells just a great guy But those folks who live there that is their life and that is what they're used to just like when we were on that Prince Edward Prince of Wales Island That was our life for those five days.
Yeah, that's one of the reasons why when I came back here it felt so good to realize that This feeling of sun on your face is very pleasurable.
This feeling of being around people and having, you know, the convenience of grocery stores and restaurants that are good and comedy clubs and all the good aspects that a city provides.
It made me, like, acutely aware of that.
Because being in that environment, that could be light.
You adapt to that.
People are super adaptative.
Adaptative?
bryan callen
Adaptive?
joe rogan
Why does that look wrong?
Adaptation.
bryan callen
Adaptative.
joe rogan
No, it is adaptive.
Yeah, but people are really really adaptive.
We can change and we can morph and we can and I think in Some ways we're not aware of when it's happening It just becomes a normal life like text messages and photos and being able to Google things becomes normal but I think historians When they look back on the era between 1994 and 2015, they will see a tornado of information.
They will see an unprecedented amount of data that's being passed back and forth to the point where at the end, at the very end of the line, 2015, more data gets done in like an hour, more data gets passed by in 24 hours than the entire history of the human race.
Just stop and think about that.
bryan callen
It's incredible.
joe rogan
The entire history of the human race, that's how much data we produce every day.
bryan callen
You're talking about the movement of information.
joe rogan
By the way, I don't know if those numbers are exactly correct.
It might be like two days or one day.
Whatever the fuck it is.
It's some insanely small amount of time that represents the entire history of human beings writing things down.
Most of it's bullshit.
Most of it's Facebook messages and text messages and tweets.
But the bottom line is, it's exchanges.
Okay, it might be nonsensical social exchanges that don't mean anything, LOL, WUT. It might be bullshit.
It might be Instagram pictures of your ass in yoga pants.
It might be nonsense.
But in that nonsense, there's an unprecedented amount of tweets.
That are leading people to check out articles, that are leading people to maybe reform opinions or reconsider preconceived notions, and then you'll start reading comments, how other people agree or disagree, and you start communicating with each other, and an unprecedented sort of exchange is taking place.
I just don't think we noticed it.
Most people noticed it because it just happened while we were alive.
bryan callen
It's also humanizing a lot of those experiences.
So I think when you frame, for example, this Bruce Jenner thing, when you frame it like, and people really do understand it, when you frame it when somebody says, listen, Not only have I always felt this way, but the overwhelming evidence is that anybody or most people who become transgender or go through gender reassignment surgery, if you look at how they always felt, if you ask them, they always felt this way, kind of like the way somebody who is gay generally, usually will say, I've always been attracted to the same sex.
So when you frame it that way and you see it and you see a person that, you know, is very real to you and acting the way everybody else does, it's hard not to empathize.
It's hard not to have compassion.
So that, in that sense, information is nudging us all.
Together all closer at least at least I think it you're right.
We are becoming nicer more gentle more understanding.
joe rogan
Yeah, we're becoming more aware of our Of our similarities as opposed to differences.
Yeah focusing on our differences.
Yeah, I think the similarities What's what's super important like the core the core process is how we treat each other.
That's like what's super important and If we're treating each other in a negative way simply because of some ideas that we might have on Who a person should or shouldn't be whether or not you should sleep with men like that's that's one of the best ones like the or whether or not I retweeted something from the 1930s I believe it was where a woman was going to jail for being a lesbian and It's a crazy picture.
Jamie, see if you can pull it up.
It's on my Twitter feed somewhere, not that far down.
It's from Old Pix Archives.
It's from 1940, when it was a crime to be a homosexual.
And this woman, you know, they're giving her a mugshot for being a lesbian.
It's like, just think about that.
That's not that long ago, man.
What was that, 75 years ago?
Look at that.
That's horrible.
bryan callen
Yeah.
joe rogan
That's scary to think of, man.
That's how fucked up people can be.
That's how ignorant people can be.
It hasn't been that long.
It hasn't been that long since we've had civilization.
bryan callen
No.
joe rogan
It's only been a few thousand years.
The civilization they had a few thousand years ago, too, by the way, you can keep it.
bryan callen
Yeah, you can keep it.
You mean before anesthesia?
Antibiotics?
joe rogan
How about the fucking Romans, all the horrible shit that you heard people did back then in war?
bryan callen
And that's a really interesting point because the Romans and the Mongols...
You know, back then it was an excuse enough just to say, I'm stronger, I own you.
Oh, and by the way, slavery was the order of the day.
You took human beings as property.
joe rogan
Always.
bryan callen
Nowadays, what's interesting is that when any country does something that's bad...
Russia and Ukraine couldn't just say they were trying to annex territory.
They justify what they were doing, the Putin regime justifies what they're doing, on the idea that, look, we're just protecting our Russian people that are there.
No matter who you're talking to, no matter what country you're talking to, no matter Syria, when they're bombing the rebels, whatever, Syria, the Assad regime will talk about the fact that they are protecting a lot of different communities in a very diverse country.
Et cetera, et cetera.
And what I think is interesting is that with so many people watching, anybody who's doing anything that could be considered violent, murderous, bad in general, must be justified along moral grounds.
It's no longer allowed to say, we're fucking taking over your country because we're Roman and Romans are better.
That used to be all the excuse they needed.
We're Romans.
We have a right to...
To everything we can see.
It belongs to us because we are superior, and everyone else is not.
So they can either die, get out of the way, or be our slaves.
joe rogan
Well, that was the only way you survived back then, is if you were the stronger one with that attitude, because that was the attitude that you were going to encounter.
Like, what the Mongols did when they found a new civilization.
Like, when they found the Pope, the first contact with the Pope was saying, we're aware that you weren't aware, but this is the Great Khan.
The Great Khan runs everything, so you're going to have to pay some fucking tribute and bow down, or you're all dead.
Like, that's it.
That's how it goes.
And that was what they did.
They believed they ruled over everything on the earth.
Like, they didn't have a territory.
What territory?
unidentified
What?
joe rogan
The whole thing.
They wanted the whole earth.
And that was the standard operational behavior of, like, the classic marauders from 1,000 to...
I mean, that was the 1200s.
Imagine what was, like, 1,000 years before that, where they were really savages, or 2,000 years before that.
bryan callen
But it raises questions about whether this stuff is endemic to human beings.
Like, they were doing a study on chimps.
And they have a lot of evidence, they've already seen it, but they have a lot of evidence even like from past chimps that, you know, different, when they study different areas and communities, that a group of large, a large group of males will come in and overrun a smaller group of males in an isolated area and kill all of them.
Beat the fucking shit out of them.
Kill them.
Come in and either kill their kids or, you know, have sex with the women.
Very human-like behavior.
Very typical.
And it used to be that the idea that human beings were violent like that was because we didn't know any better and that it wasn't a natural impulse.
In fact, we're not naturally violent because kids aren't.
And so that's a learned behavior.
Problem is, you see that kind of behavior in the animal world.
You see it among dolphins and you see it among chimps.
And you certainly see it in spades in indigenous cultures that have had very little contact with other cultures, have not shared information with other cultures.
joe rogan
Well, if there's no civilization, if you don't have an infrastructure, if you don't have food that's coming in, then you have struggle.
And when you have struggle, you have danger.
When you have danger, you have people that are going to take advantage of people that are weaker than them, and you have a breakdown of what we consider civilization.
And when you get into these really rural communities, the further and further back in time, the more and more prevalent that shit's gonna be.
That's the way people behave.
bryan callen
Scarcity also changes the way your brain behaves.
joe rogan
Of course, you get competitive.
It gets super dangerous.
I think that people are capable of amazing feats of kindness, and people are awesome to be around, and people are also un-fucking- believably evil.
Like, if you look at that ISIS video, I didn't watch it, but it was described to me, of the Jordanian pilot who's lit on fire.
They did it in slow-mo from different angles.
I mean, they filmed it.
They set it up.
They set up a shot, and then they filmed this guy getting burned to death.
The fact that people are capable of that kind of cruelty to each other, and at the same time, there's selfless people that are out there like Justin Wren, who's living with the pygmies in the Congo, and he's digging wells for them.
bryan callen
Well, they always say human beings, not all day, but the book, Our Inner Ape, the author says that we are a bipolar ape.
joe rogan
Yeah.
bryan callen
We're a bipolar ape capable of incredible cruelty and incredible kindness, incredible acts of destruction, incredible acts of beauty.
And that is called the problem of humanity.
joe rogan
That is exactly what we are.
We're also in this constant state of struggle.
And I think one of the things that people are...
Like the negative push that I totally understand against masculine thinking and masculine behavior is that...
We're moving towards this more aware, more sensitive, more or kind society.
And the further you move away from those roots of the ancient barbarians, the better off we're going to be.
bryan callen
Maybe.
But I would also suggest that male aggression...
joe rogan
I like how you're fucking playing with your belt.
bryan callen
I'm playing with my belt as I'm talking about this.
I don't fuck around.
Male aggression.
joe rogan
That's like a classic storyteller.
bryan callen
It's funny how I did that.
joe rogan
Naturally, too.
I'll tell you what, boys.
bryan callen
Tell you something.
Pull up a chair, boys.
joe rogan
How many guys do that?
They pull up their belt when they're about to tell you something serious.
Listen, here.
bryan callen
Don Frye.
joe rogan
Let me tell you what.
That's a man's man.
bryan callen
That's a man's man.
Saw him yesterday.
I was obsessed.
But I think masculine aggression has also given us so many of the goodies.
You want to go through the list of heaps of fresh vegetables in the middle of the wintertime.
All the inventions that push us beyond our biology.
It takes, it requires a little aggression, I think, sometimes, and even, God forbid I say it, competition, ruthless competition.
joe rogan
That's how things progress.
The problem with that is that people are going to lose, and people don't like losing because they think losing is a bad feeling.
So they think of competition and competitive people as being negative.
bryan callen
Okay, so that's my worry about the feminization, quote-unquote, of our society.
I think that we have to be very careful that we don't forget the positive aspects of what you'd call...
Unoriginal macho energy!
joe rogan
I think the problem is that it's not masculine energy that's a problem that people are upset about.
I think it gets misconstrued.
I think the problem that we all have is with assholes.
That is the problem across the board, whether it's women or it's men.
When you see like these crazy radical feminists who attack speakers because they, you know, want to support men's rights and Divorce court and whatever the fucking reason is that the really aggressive like this is archetypal video of this super aggressive Feminist outside of this thing in Toronto and she's got red hair and she's screaming at people like what she wants and what she doesn't want for men and when they can shut the fuck up and you know and and she's telling people in the audience shut the fuck up the people that exist
like that then they become the problem because Because the problem is not like the idea that women deserve everything that men deserve and that we should have equal treatment by law.
The problem is assholes.
Yeah.
Is assholes representing a point of view that I probably don't disagree with.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
But I disagree with her.
unidentified
Right.
joe rogan
And I disagree with someone who is generalizing about an entire gender.
unidentified
Mm-hmm.
joe rogan
Because that's ridiculous.
bryan callen
Of course it is.
joe rogan
Or generalizing about a type of person that is in that gender.
unidentified
Mm-hmm.
joe rogan
Like, you can't.
Everybody is entitled to start from zero.
And as soon as you're prejudiced, whether you're prejudiced against white people, or whether you're prejudiced against men, or whether you're prejudiced against gays or transgenders or whatever the fuck it is, as soon as you stop treating that person and you come at them from a totally even spot, then you're the asshole.
bryan callen
Right.
And I would suggest that, you know, we benefit also and enjoy a lot about life based on people who created things whose motives, their motives, may have been less than stellar.
Sure.
It's done by just pure ego, domination, greed, and those things do not always create bad things.
In fact, a lot of times they create incredible innovations, better ways to do things.
What's another word for innovation?
Another word for innovation is destruction.
You're destroying how people used to do it.
When we came up with The internal combustion engine and put it in a vehicle and turn it into a car.
People that made a lot of money making buggy whips went out of fucking business.
Because I don't need your fucking buggy whip because my car doesn't respond to buggy whips.
It responds to what I call rock oil, which turned out to be oil.
So that's the other thing to keep in mind.
Innovation is...
It's an aggressive thing.
It's competition.
It's destruction.
joe rogan
Well, you know, we deal with that all the time with businesses, right?
When businesses start to get pressure in the marketplace from other outside businesses, and you deal with this weird thing that happens with commerce.
You know, it becomes this gigantic contest, and some aspects of it we feel like we need to save.
Like, that's what happens in the banking business.
bryan callen
Right, they go to the government and say, don't let us fail.
joe rogan
Well, what's really interesting to me is, like, there's people that got bailouts, right?
Like, who got bailouts?
bryan callen
Almost all the banks.
joe rogan
Almost all the banks.
bryan callen
Goldman Sachs, etc.
joe rogan
Were there other businesses that got bailouts as well, or just banks?
bryan callen
The car industry was bailed out as well.
Turned out, both cases, by the way, turned out to be success stories to an extent.
They really did.
joe rogan
They made the money, and while GM especially has made some amazing fucking cars, but I always respected that Ford didn't take any money.
bryan callen
They were doing well enough, and I don't remember why.
joe rogan
They make the best trucks.
bryan callen
Yeah, something like that.
joe rogan
Yeah, Ford pickup trucks, they sell a lot of fucking trucks, dude.
Everywhere you go, you go to like a hunting ranch, or you go to like cattle ranches, they drive those fucking F-150s.
bryan callen
Those things are bulletproof.
Also, what bankrupt a lot of those companies were their pension plans.
So you would retire, they'd pay medical benefits for your entire family for the rest of your life, and you got 95% of your salary.
unidentified
Here's the payoff.
joe rogan
So what is the money?
549 billion?
That's how much they got?
bryan callen
Keep in mind, everybody!
What the fuck is that?
A billion seconds is 33 years, roughly.
So that's how much a billion dollars is.
joe rogan
Yeah, but they're not giving them seconds, they're giving them dollars.
That's what I mean.
So 549, is that what it was?
549 billion?
That is insane!
That hurts.
bryan callen
I believe the banks paid off that money, though.
I'm sorry if I'm wrong.
joe rogan
Look at those numbers.
bryan callen
For the most part, they all paid it off.
The government made a lot of money off that deal.
unidentified
Really?
bryan callen
Yes, because they got interest.
unidentified
Wow.
bryan callen
So they made actually a lot more money.
joe rogan
No shit.
bryan callen
Yep.
The banks paid back.
unidentified
What do they do with the money that they earned, that they got from it?
joe rogan
What happens to that?
bryan callen
They paid it back with interest.
No, no, no.
joe rogan
I mean the government.
What does the government do with that money?
bryan callen
I don't really know.
joe rogan
They don't give it back to the people that pay the taxes, do they?
bryan callen
It does things like builds roads and things, I guess.
joe rogan
Maybe.
Yeah, maybe.
They don't have to account for it.
It's the most ridiculous system ever.
bryan callen
Well, we know that when you throw money, just money at a problem, like in Baltimore, I believe, which is the worst school system in the country, I think we spend federal dollars, we spend More money per student.
It's the third most amount of spending per student than any other town or state in the union.
That's kind of amazing.
And guess what?
You can't just throw money at a problem.
So many of these issues...
That I'm kind of becoming fascinated with.
Don't require money or it's not a Democratic or Republican issue.
For example, one of the biggest challenges we're going to face is that there are a lot of people out there who don't fit into the 21st century economy.
They don't have skill set that requires that.
They do manual labor.
They do minimum wage jobs.
You can raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour, I guess.
I don't know what it's like to run a small business.
I know a lot of small business people say that's too much.
I don't know.
But that's actually not the problem.
Every time you hear Democrats or Republicans talking, they say things like, hey man, we've got to do something about this income inequality.
So the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer, and we've got to tax the rich.
Everybody has their point of view.
No, trickle-down economics.
The problem is, in fact, that what's really going on is technology is taking the place of a lot of these unskilled jobs.
And we are going to have, as technology grows exponentially, Robots and different forms of technology are gonna take over so many of the jobs that people have now.
Bus drivers.
We're gonna have autonomous vehicles.
I don't know when it's gonna be, but bus drivers will be out of business, out of work.
And there are so many examples of that.
What we have to start doing, rather than worrying about redistributing wealth, the most important thing is getting these people ready for the 21st century economy, which is probably going to change all the time.
Which means you've got to figure out how you're going to fit in to an economy that doesn't operate the way traditional economies work anymore.
There's just different needs, different services, things are always changing, things are very trendy.
That's the biggest challenge.
joe rogan
And that's a hard fucking pill to swallow for someone who's banked their entire family's existence on horseshoes.
bryan callen
Damn right!
joe rogan
Also this goddamn engine thing comes along and no one needs a fucking horseshoe.
bryan callen
But you can't go to the government and say, hey government bail me out and give me subsidies for the rest of my life because somebody has to pay for that and that's all of us.
And so taxes get higher and that's what we have to be careful of.
I just really, there is a place for government but you have to be careful of saying, hey the government's gonna come in here and save The day.
It's a bankrupt way of thinking.
You've got to evolve.
You've got to change.
You've got to be honest.
You've got to be honest.
This might be a skill that's no longer needed.
And robots are going to change everything.
joe rogan
They are going to change everything.
And then when you get intelligent robots, you have like these robot slaves.
You're going to have robots that are going to do all your construction.
You're going to have absolute precise measurements on things.
You'll have a robot that's building houses.
Like a human being builds houses.
But robots.
Robots walking upstairs carrying gigantic bags of cement with no strain on their back.
All manual label jobs.
Robots.
bryan callen
I don't think you're going to see any robot stand-up comics, guys.
So I think our jobs are safe for at least our lifetime.
joe rogan
Well, we're lucky as fuck.
Not just the comics, but also that you can't fix that with a robot.
You can't make a robot funny.
But they have done some random joke generators, but you know what?
They lack that pop of the great bits.
bryan callen
Yeah.
joe rogan
The great bits that have this unique perspective.
bryan callen
They're not going to get a robot to mimic Bill Burr.
joe rogan
Or I was gonna say yes, absolutely Joey Diaz I was gonna say Mitch Hedberg actually because his absurdist point of view was like really only effective I think with his way of communicating like his his style of delivery You know you're not gonna figure that out with a computer.
You're just not not gonna figure out why it's appealing It's We're lucky as shit.
Being a person who's getting out of school now and thinking about jobs that used to exist just a short while ago that are nonsense now.
They're just nonsense jobs.
Like, how many people in the era of, you know, 1995 had some sort of...
Training and school and education and technologically related things and technology, creative technology.
By the time they get out of school, everything that they learned is irrelevant.
Didn't you have a problem with that, Jamie?
unidentified
To explain your problem, I mean, I went to school to work in a recording studio.
joe rogan
Right.
jamie vernon
And at worst, maybe work in a radio station, they would say.
And this is kind of like what my education has kind of turned into, to be able to control, essentially, a radio show.
But there are no recording studios for me to go work in.
joe rogan
They don't exist anymore.
jamie vernon
There's maybe five in LA. There's probably a couple more than that, but anyone that has been working there for the last 15 years is still working there.
They're not hiring new young blood to come in because they need to work for the next 15 years.
unidentified
You know what I mean?
joe rogan
There's just not that much of a demand.
unidentified
And they're not making music in those studios either.
You can do it at home.
joe rogan
You can do it at home easy used to have to have like these incredible systems, right?
And now you just have like a regular Apple computer or even a Windows computer is fine, right?
jamie vernon
Dave Grohl's movie called like Sound City or something like that I believe came out a couple years goes really good and kind of shows How that all happened over the last ten years?
joe rogan
Yeah, it's you're finding these houses for sale.
There's a lot of houses that have like recording studios built in them for sale But you don't need all that shit.
Yeah There's a lot of those instances Of the technology.
The technology just doesn't wait for you.
If you learn computer programming pre-1990, what are you going to do today?
What are you going to do, stupid?
bryan callen
Yeah.
joe rogan
What are you going to do?
You have your old schools?
It's...
Anything technologically related, like banking on one thing over another.
Somebody just invited me to some startup of some new multimedia, social media sort of a thing.
And I remember thinking, good luck with this.
Good luck.
Why would I invest any of my time to try to...
Go check out, go to a speech and see the unveiling of this thing.
If it's good, it'll get online.
I'll hear about it.
That's it.
That's it.
You're not going to get behind anything before it's good.
You don't know why it is or why it isn't.
Who's to say?
Certain things catch on, certain things don't.
But you've got to let them just catch on.
bryan callen
You've got to let them catch on.
I had some academics come to me because they had listened.
I have a lot of academics on my podcast, the old Brian Count show.
I had some academics come to me and say, listen, we want to put together a convention, something called Evocon.
So it's a convention on evolution and we want to get all the great minds of evolution together and people that understand it and get together and have a convention about evolution and with the idea that we can get that 40% of Americans or whoever it is who don't believe in evolution over on our side.
Let's give them the evidence because the scientific community Science is fascinating, but they've done a very bad job communicating their message.
They don't do a good job communicating.
Because what happens with academics and people in that world is that they become very insular.
And they become very incestuous.
And they're only talking to each other, and they're not talking to people who are casting votes and who ultimately have a say in public policy and stuff.
joe rogan
Well, you know, I learned from Kevin Afolta, who was on the podcast the other day, who was a scientist, And works a lot with GM foods, GMO foods, and explaining what they really are.
One of the things he was talking about to me was that he works for the public, essentially.
He's a public scientist.
But when they research something or come to some conclusions, they publish them in these papers or journals.
These journals are often hidden behind paywalls.
bryan callen
Yes.
joe rogan
So the very people that paid to fund these studies don't really have access to them.
And there was a kid who went to jail for hacking into a university.
Yeah, they were charging him with some serious crime.
Is that Aaron Schwartz?
bryan callen
I think it was Aaron Schwartz, yeah.
joe rogan
Was that the same case?
bryan callen
Yeah, he hacked into all these sort of academic papers that were not made public.
Yeah, he made them public.
You had to pay for them.
You had to pay for them and he hacked them and made them public.
Without the professor's intellectual property, that's their intellectual property.
They didn't give a say so.
The university makes money off of it, and he just gave them to everybody, and then they threatened him to make an example, and he ended up killing himself.
joe rogan
Well, how do you feel about that?
That seems, here, more than a year after Swartz killed himself rather than face prosecutions, questions about MIT's handling of the case persist.
bryan callen
Yeah.
joe rogan
Scroll down.
bryan callen
I feel as though, I think Aaron Schwartz, you know, if you have, if somebody has intellectual property, it's an academic paper on something, and they can make money off it, they should be allowed to make money off it.
And if it's your property and somebody comes in and breaks into your password and just gives it away for free, that's not cool.
unidentified
Right.
bryan callen
I think that's what he did.
I don't know.
But.
joe rogan
If you are a public scientist, and if you are working for a university that receives tax dollars from the community, and you do this work, doesn't that work belong to everyone?
Because everyone paid for it.
If not, how are you public?
If you're getting money and you're earning money from the money that was put up by the public to pay for you.
I mean, you have to kind of define what we allow and what we don't allow.
So in some ways, he probably had a really good point.
The way he went after it was kind of theft.
I mean, he invaded someone's property, which is the university.
Whether or not it should be their property, that's debatable, but the fact that he wasn't allowed into their servers and he got in there.
All he did was download some stuff, so it's not malicious.
I think whatever crime they should have pointed at him would have been like nothing.
Like a fine.
Maybe say, hey man, you can't just break into people's...
You can't just hack into people's servers.
That is fucked up.
So you should get some sort of fine for that.
But the idea of jail time...
I mean, I'm talking about a $500 fine or $1,000 or something like that.
Put him on probation and say, don't ever do this again, man.
You can't hack into people's...
But the idea that this guy was under so much stress that he killed himself over releasing academic papers, which clearly there's no malice involved.
You're not trying to hurt anybody.
bryan callen
Well, they threaten him with, I think, life in prison.
I mean...
They threaten for something terrible.
joe rogan
He's trying to release things that make people smarter.
You know, he's trying to put more of that out there.
And then you do the math and you go, well, how did this stuff get funded?
Did it get funded by taxpayers?
Why the fuck do we have to pay for it?
Why do I have to pay for the results of these pub studies?
bryan callen
Yeah.
joe rogan
Pub med studies or whatever the fuck they are.
If somebody publishes something in a paper and it was funded by taxpayers, it should be available.
It should be in a public library somewhere.
bryan callen
What did this guy talk about as far as GMOs?
I mean, there's a lot of misinformation out there, right?
joe rogan
Yeah, it's a long, long podcast.
We did three full hours, and he was great.
He's a really, really interesting guy.
And, man, people have some crazy misconceptions, and they stick to them like glue.
No matter what he said on the podcast and what he explained on the podcast, you see people arguing with it online.
They're religious.
bryan callen
They're religious.
They're fundamentalists about it, yeah.
joe rogan
They don't understand what it means to modify these foods, like these ideas of frankenfoods, these ideas of what's dangerous and deadly.
It's something that people have been doing forever.
They've just been doing it, and he was explaining how they were splicing plants together and creating hybrids of plants, and that they would take, you know, the pollen...
bryan callen
Sometimes they require less pesticides.
joe rogan
But he's always saying, he was talking about it, this has been done forever.
bryan callen
Yeah.
joe rogan
And it's like...
The difference being that now they're engineering certain things to turn on jeans or turn off jeans.
And people are concerned that this could be really dangerous.
And he was really honest about it, man.
He's like, yes, there should be some concern.
He was really honest about the whole idea of, yeah, we don't exactly know that this is going to be safe for everybody at every single turn, every time.
But if you just look at the things, we're going over the things that kill people right now, like peanuts and...
I mean, Brian has a fucking allergy to penicillin.
bryan callen
Yeah, my mother does too, she'll die.
If my mother eats one Brazil nut, one, she'll die.
joe rogan
That's crazy.
So think of that.
Just imagine if that was a drug.
If that was a drug that was released by the pharmaceutical company, would those numbers be tolerated?
Boy, I don't think so.
I don't think so.
So if it's a combinatory plant or vegetable, something that they've created, and it whacks out one person out of 100 million, should that be okay?
I don't think it should, but man, it's a tough argument.
bryan callen
We make those calls all the time.
Aspirin kills a number of people.
joe rogan
Thousands of people every year.
bryan callen
Now, nobody in their right mind is going to ban aspirin.
It's a great drug and helps a lot of people with chronic pain.
joe rogan
Dude, a lot of people drink too much water and die from that every year.
bryan callen
That's right.
Anything is toxic in certain quantities.
That's a fact.
joe rogan
But the thing about this is that people are worried about cancer because they're worried about what they're doing to these plants are not natural, and that's how they're able to fight off these pesticides.
And it's a legitimate concern.
When you look into what's actually going on, actually being done, I think most of the plants that we're worried about when it comes to that stuff, I think those are the ones that they feed to animals.
And then you're worried about, okay, now you're eating the animal that's eating this stuff that has this roundup shit on it.
Like, what is, what's that?
What's going on there?
Because, like, we were talking about bears.
Like, if you eat a bear that's been eating blueberries, it's supposed to be, like, the most delicious meat in the world.
Steve Rinello talks about this.
He had an episode where he shot this bear in Alaska, and as he's butchering the bear, the bear fat has blue.
It's a blue hue, like, almost a purple hue.
Because of the blueberries this thing's been eating.
Who's to say that if you're giving a fucking cow or you're giving some whatever animal some this Roundup shit if it's in if you're spraying it on vegetables to kill bugs and then those vegetables get fed Are you washing them before you give them your cows like how exactly are you treating them to make sure there's nothing in there?
If there is something in there just like how the blueberry makes the bear taste different That's gotta do something to what you're eating.
It's just got to and It's just gotta be affecting the flesh that you're taking into your body.
And there's a potential, if you're eating toxic shit, if that cow is eating some pesticides, that's gotta be able to get into the meat.
So maybe the yoga lady was right.
bryan callen
Wait a minute.
joe rogan
The meat is totally toxic and bad.
bryan callen
Toxic!
joe rogan
I mean, look, if you look at it that way, she kind of almost has a point.
If you're not getting, like, free-range, grass-fed...
bryan callen
If indeed Roundup is that bad, if indeed it does get in the meat, if indeed it does...
Well, kills bugs.
...into a quantity that affects you, I don't know.
joe rogan
Did you ever see the, um, there was a...
One of these shows where this guy had offered to drink Roundup.
He had said it was totally safe.
You don't have to worry about it.
He goes, I would drink it.
And the guy goes, you drink it?
Yeah, well, I've got a glass here.
Drink it.
And the guy goes, well, you're just being a total jerk.
And he leaves.
You should watch it because it's hilarious.
bryan callen
Well, the guy did drink.
I don't know if it was Roundup.
Watch this.
joe rogan
Let's hold on.
Start it from the beginning and give us some volume because this is wonderful.
bryan callen
It's French.
joe rogan
I love this.
unidentified
Hold on.
joe rogan
I believe...
unidentified
That glyphosate in Argentina is causing increases in cancer.
You can drink a whole quart of it and it won't hurt you.
You want to drink some?
We have some here.
I'd be happy to, actually.
Not really, but...
Not really?
I know it wouldn't hurt me.
If you say so, I have some glyphosate.
No, no, I'm not stupid.
bryan callen
Ah, okay, so you...
unidentified
No, but I know...
So it's dangerous, right?
No, people try to commit suicide with it and fail fairly regularly.
Tell the truth.
It's not dangerous to humans.
No, it's not.
So you're ready to drink one glass of glyphosate?
No, I'm not an idiot.
Interview me about golden rice.
That's what I'm talking about.
Okay, then it's finished.
Then the interview is finished.
That's a good way to solve things.
Yeah.
You're a complete jerk.
joe rogan
You're a complete jerk.
Come on, man.
You're a complete jerk.
bryan callen
He got mad quickly, didn't he?
joe rogan
Yeah, of course he did.
bryan callen
If you dare me, I'm going to have to probably drink it.
joe rogan
Well, he's a liar.
He's a liar.
bryan callen
The guy who, they were spraying the trees, I think it was California, the orange trees for fruit flies or whatever, and he started the meeting.
He was the owner of the company, started the meeting by drinking an entire glass of it.
joe rogan
Oh, my God.
bryan callen
Yeah, and carried on.
He goes, so here's how dangerous it is.
Ready, guys?
Glug, glug, glug, glug, glug.
Doesn't taste good or whatever.
Boom.
And that was a famous way he started that sort of like to prove to everybody that this product is not toxic.
joe rogan
Okay, but then how does it kill bugs?
bryan callen
Well, I think bugs, I don't know, but I do know that usually it'll attack the bug's central nervous system or something, or it causes some, it fucks with one enzyme.
I would like to talk to that dude today.
joe rogan
What if he's turning into the fly?
bryan callen
Exactly.
He's just got really thick hair, and he's strong as shit.
joe rogan
It just gets weird.
bryan callen
And he throws up stuff on his food, and then...
joe rogan
He fucks all the time.
Remember when Jeff Goldblum was just...
bryan callen
Oh, great movie.
Great movie.
joe rogan
It's a great goddamn movie.
bryan callen
Jeff Goldblum is about seven, eight.
He's a giant man.
joe rogan
It's huge.
bryan callen
Fucking huge.
joe rogan
He's so talented, man.
I love him in Jurassic Park.
unidentified
It's one of all time.
bryan callen
He's also got an impossible dick.
unidentified
Whoa.
bryan callen
He's got an impossible dick on him.
joe rogan
How big?
bryan callen
I hear it's, first of all, there are two things that he has going for him, and I know a girl dated him, and I dated her for about ten minutes, and she said, well, he plays the piano, concert piano, he's a concert pianist, basically, and he's got a donkey dick.
And I thought, I said, of course, I went, hold on, I stop everything, fuck his piano, let's get to his dick immediately.
joe rogan
Immediately.
bryan callen
And I had to ask her, she showed me her forearm, she said, it's as big as my forearm.
joe rogan
Whoa, just a monster horn.
bryan callen
Yeah, and I said, and of course, and I said, you slut.
Dude, how dare you?
And I said, who's better in bed?
And she goes, I'm not going to talk about that.
joe rogan
Well, you lost there.
bryan callen
I definitely lost to the 6'6", donkey dick, piano playing, rich as shit, successful as fuck.
joe rogan
If you watch that movie, The Fly, you'll get an idea of how he fucks, too.
bryan callen
Yeah.
Yeah, he's a stud.
He's got an easy bone structure.
joe rogan
I love him in Jurassic Park.
It's one of my all-time favorite roles of his.
bryan callen
He's just great.
joe rogan
Yeah, he's an interesting dude.
You know, he was in Invasion of the Body Snatchers?
bryan callen
Yes, I do know that.
joe rogan
You know, I was amazed.
I was like, God, was he like 20?
bryan callen
He also had a very tiny part in Annie Hall.
joe rogan
Really?
bryan callen
Yep, he was almost an extra.
joe rogan
Wow.
bryan callen
God, is he unique.
joe rogan
Yeah, he's a bad motherfucker.
He's great as a scientist, too, because as a scientist, he has all these unique quirks about the way he describes things and processes things.
You totally believe he's intelligent enough to be making that.
Like in The Fly, it's a perfect example.
Can you imagine a dull actor playing that role?
When he's pitching it and he's passionate about it, that excitement, you really believe it.
You really believe he's the guy who created that transporter.
bryan callen
There's also that kind of a thing he does.
He's always thinking about it as he talks about it.
I just wear the same clothing all the time and pick it up from Einstein because that way I don't have to think about what I wear.
joe rogan
But I believe it.
unidentified
Me too.
joe rogan
You know what I'm saying?
bryan callen
Me too.
joe rogan
He's one of those guys where while he's doing it on stage or in a, you know, on the movie, you really believe, you forget that it's Jeff Goldblum.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
Even for brief moments.
Like, he's good enough that it just hypnotizes you.
And you go like, wow, he fucking kicked ass in that one.
bryan callen
Yeah.
joe rogan
There's only a few of those people out there.
bryan callen
Walk-in is probably that way, too.
Faye Dunaway.
That's a name from the past.
Faye Dunaway.
joe rogan
Dude, Chinatown.
Watch Chinatown with Jack Nicholson.
Goddamn, she could act.
bryan callen
Phenomenal movie.
joe rogan
Jesus Christ, she was good.
So was he, too, man.
Jesus Christ, that's a good movie.
bryan callen
What's his name in the movie?
Hank or something?
joe rogan
I don't remember.
bryan callen
Forget it, Hank.
It's Chinatown.
Fuck.
She's my mother.
No, she's my daughter.
She's my sister.
She's my daughter.
She's my sister.
Remember that?
Where he's slapping her face.
joe rogan
And they cut his nose.
They sliced his nose.
bryan callen
You know, for 10 points, you know who actually cut his nose?
joe rogan
No.
bryan callen
That was Roman Polanski.
joe rogan
Really?
bryan callen
That was the director.
joe rogan
Wow.
bryan callen
And then he had sex with a 13-year-old and had to go to France and he could never come back.
joe rogan
I think, yeah.
Didn't he drug her or something, too?
bryan callen
She was on drugs and she was high and he sodomized her as well in a jacuzzi.
joe rogan
But did he drug her?
bryan callen
No, I think she was doing the drugs and she had had sex with somebody else.
And she'd been there before, but she's 13. I had an argument with a bunch of fans of his.
unidentified
Oh, God.
bryan callen
And I said, look, it's fine.
I know that you're coming up with reasons why he could and he should be let back in the United States.
unidentified
It's fine.
bryan callen
If it was your daughter, if it was your 13-year-old, 13, just how would you feel?
That's not the point.
It is the point.
joe rogan
Wow, how's that not the point?
bryan callen
It's the point.
joe rogan
The point is, like, well, the only thing that could be not the point is, is he that same guy now?
Is he that same guy now, or were you dealing with a guy who, if many people don't know, Roman Polanski, terrible as he might be, suffered one of the most insane things that can ever happen to a person.
The Holocaust?
The Manson family killed his wife and cut his pregnant wife's belly open and smeared blood all over the wall.
I mean, what they did...
That was the Tate-LaBianca murders.
Sharon Tate was Roman Polanski's wife.
bryan callen
She was an actress, right?
joe rogan
That was his baby at the time and his wife at the time.
I mean, that has got to be a mind breaker.
Now, I'm not saying that that would resort someone to pedophilia.
But, I mean, who knows what was going on in that guy's mind or life at that point.
If he's not that guy anymore, and that woman, wherever she is, if she's still alive, forgives him, I could see him being able to lead a normal life.
I mean, there's been enough...
bryan callen
He was also, I believe, a concentration camp survivor, or at least he had been in the Holocaust in Poland as a Jew and had to flee.
joe rogan
Yeah, I think one of those two, I remember as well.
So it's like, look, that guy's been through some horrific, horrific shit, and it certainly doesn't justify or exonerate him, rather, from anything terrible that he's done.
But...
At a certain point in time, you've got to go, like, what should be done about something that happened 25 years ago?
Should he have to do time in jail?
Has he escaped that punishment?
bryan callen
Well, there is a statute of limitations for that very reason and to answer that question.
But you know what I'm saying about it?
100%.
joe rogan
Yeah.
That's why the statute of limitations exists, because you're not thought to be that person anymore?
bryan callen
I believe that's the logic behind, I believe that's at least the partial logic behind that law.
joe rogan
Contracts like contracts and leases and things along those lines like it's like agreeing that you're gonna be the same person to a certain extent like a marriage or More relevant even if somebody on death row who committed a crime when he was 18 now he's 45 and is a very different person than when he was 18 That was there are a lot of examples of that Well,
why are you expected to be responsible for things that you did 18 over, but under 18, you become a juvenile?
bryan callen
But the reason for that is physiological, actually.
The reason for that is that the frontal cortex of a teenager is not fully developed, and that's the area of your brain you use to make decisions.
And so teenagers, biologically, from what I understand, are more impulsive and all that.
joe rogan
Especially boys.
Teenage boys have the worst of that.
And they say until they're 25, it doesn't even fully form.
bryan callen
That's why they said that if you want to get rid of all crime, just take all 14-year-old boys.
Take them from 14 to the age of 21.
Put them in prison.
And you'll never have a violent crime.
joe rogan
Well, they had a study about the amount of violent crimes that are committed by people in that age range.
And it's overwhelming.
And a lot of it is a lack of perspective, lack of understanding what the consequences of your actions are, and these weird impulses that teenagers have, these weird ancient fucking primate impulses that still exist, that are, you know, passed down.
bryan callen
I remember them very well.
I just got over them three years ago.
joe rogan
Yeah, man.
It's not easy, evolving.
bryan callen
The other thing, I mean, I don't know whether he knew she was 13. There are a lot of issues, but, I mean, at the end of the day, if you have sex with a 13-year-old, you know, and she's drugged up, I don't know, man.
You know?
joe rogan
Yeah.
bryan callen
I can't forgive you.
joe rogan
No, it's 100% crazy.
bryan callen
Yeah.
joe rogan
The other two factors, the Holocaust thing and whether or not that's true, is that true?
Did we figure that out?
bryan callen
I think he had to flee the country.
joe rogan
What is it?
jamie vernon
Yeah, he was living in the Krakow ghettos.
unidentified
He wasn't in, like, a camp.
bryan callen
Now, the Krakow ghettos, but let me give you an example.
The Krakow ghettos, I believe this is a good statistic.
Four million Jews lived there roughly over almost 700 years in Poland.
They were a huge part of the fabric, the academic fabric and the business fabric.
And by the end of that four years, five years of four million, five million Jews, there were about less than 50,000 left.
They'd all been killed.
And Krakow, remember, most of the terrible concentration camps were in Poland.
And if you lived in that Krakow ghetto, During that time period it was the worst some of the worst probably one of the worst places to be in the history Look at that during the age of five he attended primary school for only a few weeks until all the Jewish children were Abruptly expelled.
Yep.
joe rogan
God, that's gotta be so fucking scary Yeah, just tell your children you can't go to school anymore cuz you're Jews and they got then they were sent off Sent off to concentration camps, killed very quickly.
Fuck, man.
bryan callen
A lot of them died on the trains on the way there.
joe rogan
All Jewish children over the age of 12 to wear white armbands with the blue Star of David imprinted for visual identification.
unidentified
Fuck.
joe rogan
And again, this doesn't exaggerate.
bryan callen
Watch his father taken away.
unidentified
This is horrible, horrible, horrible shit.
bryan callen
Yep.
joe rogan
Yeah.
But still, like, okay, so what do you do with a guy like that?
What do you do?
Do you let him back in here?
I mean, he obviously went through a bunch of horrendous shit.
Do you make him come back in here and go to jail?
Like, what do you do?
Like, you say, hey, you can come back and live in America, but you have to go to jail for A year?
How many years did you make him go to jail for what he did?
bryan callen
I don't know.
I can't answer that question.
joe rogan
10 years?
25 years?
You know, today, you would say it would be 25 years, at least, right?
If someone did that to a 13-year-old, you'd say 25 years in jail.
If he comes over here, and it's so many years after the crime, does he have to do the same amount of time that he would have had to do if it was the 1970s when he was convicted?
bryan callen
I don't think that if he came over here, he would be thrown in jail.
Would he?
joe rogan
My question is, would you be subject to the ideas and the laws of 1970?
bryan callen
Oh, that's interesting.
joe rogan
Or would you be subject to the ideas and the laws of 2015?
bryan callen
I think if you were tried in absentia, Then you would be.
But I'm not sure.
joe rogan
Yeah, because I think probably the punishments probably varied between then and now.
bryan callen
Well, the punishments also vary on circumstance.
So rape, murder have a specific, you know, they carry with them a penalty.
joe rogan
Right.
bryan callen
That penalty is predicated upon the circumstances and a lot of other things.
joe rogan
That wasn't always the case, was it?
bryan callen
Well, now you're talking about the difference between natural law and circumstantial law.
So, you know, natural law would say, whatever the case, what you did was out of the nature of how human beings would behave.
You stole something, there's no other reason, there's no other circumstance, it doesn't matter, it's not relevant, you go to jail.
You killed somebody, the fact of the matter is that it's unnatural to kill somebody, you pay with your life.
Well, modern societies realize that crimes are committed—and I don't even think it was modern societies.
I mean, it was always the question.
The biggest—Cicero, it goes back to the Romans, where it says, look, if you park your chariot here in this town, well, you're going to get a fine.
Oh, but you know what?
Where I live in Carthage, I can park my chariot there.
And the guy goes, all right, well, here's a warning.
Don't do it again, because now you're in Rome.
But, if you snatch a baby out of a woman's arms and kill it, or something terrible, regardless, the law will say in Rome, no, you go to jail.
No, but in Carthage we're allowed to do that, or I'm from the Mongol-Tartar steppes, we do that.
Fine.
That's fine.
You're still gonna pay with your life.
Why?
Because what you did falls under an unnatural act.
So no matter what your culture says, that was an unnatural act, an unnatural act meaning they were outside the realm of human conduct, and so you must pay a price regardless of where you're from, including whether or not you knew that was right or wrong.
That's a very important aspect of law.
It's something that people talk about all the time.
That's how you start drawing distinctions between crimes that are excusable based on circumstance and crimes that just...
joe rogan
Like drug smuggling.
bryan callen
Or how about...
Drug smuggling is one thing, but there are crimes like all of us in most societies would suggest that if an adult has sex with a five-year-old, I don't give a fuck, It's an unnatural it's an unnatural crime and you're all you're gonna do you're gonna do did you see that the Silk Road creator got life in prison without the possibility of parole no did you see that it's insane the Silk Road as in Afghanistan no the Silk Road is it was a dark web there's a great documentary
joe rogan
by Alex Winter what's it called the deep web and it's about the dark web it's about this the system that was created by the military and And They were using it to buy and sell drugs and some people who bought those drugs died and they they overdosed These people that were using it were not him and wasn't the guy who created it The guy created just a portal for people to use it He created a way for people to communicate and exchange drugs for money or for bitcoins
or for whatever They were investigated by these DEA agents turned out the DEA agents stole like hundreds of thousands of dollars and And Bitcoin, and transferred it into personal accounts, and there was a lot of fuckery involved.
And he went to jail, and they just tried him and convicted him, and the judge sentenced him to life in prison.
Life.
For creating a website.
If the appeal is not successful, he will concurrently serve two life sentences, a 20 year sentence, a 15 year sentence, and a 5 year sentence without parole.
bryan callen
Wow.
joe rogan
Fuck, man.
bryan callen
For creating this technology, this sort of secret tunnel to...
joe rogan
Well, he created a way for people to be able to buy and sell drugs.
Illegal drugs.
bryan callen
Was he working for a cartel or something?
joe rogan
No, no.
He thought he was working for good because he's a talented programmer and he figured out a way to let people buy things that they wanted to buy.
It was giving people the opportunity a way to anonymously or semi-anonymously trade goods and funds for things that were deemed prohibited.
bryan callen
I'm surprised that they weren't able to argue, create a better defense for him.
joe rogan
Well, I don't think you get a chance to, man.
I think you get railroaded by the government in these sort of cases.
They wanted to convict him.
If they want to, they can keep things out of evidence.
The idea that you get a totally fair trial is really sad.
It's not the case, especially when it comes to drugs.
You know, when Todd McCormick got arrested, he went to jail for growing medical marijuana legally under state laws.
They addressed him, they arrested him, and prosecuted him in a federal court.
When they get you in a federal court, the first thing they tell you is, there is no such thing as medical marijuana, so you're not allowed to mention medical marijuana.
You can't use it as a defense, you can't bring it up.
Like, you could cause a mistrial or you could get sanctioned by the court if you change the definitions, if you bring up the fact that it's legal in your state.
Since it's not legal federally, it's irrelevant.
So they silence you from communicating the realities of this nuanced situation.
They try to pretend that it's black and white.
You were selling drugs, yes or no!
Well, yes, but I was selling them legally in the state of California as voted upon by the people of California.
There was a proposition that was passed.
Medical marijuana was passed.
I was selling it legally through this proposition.
And they can't say that.
So he went to jail.
Never in his defense was he ever allowed to even say he was growing it legally in his state because federal charges trump state laws.
bryan callen
Goddamn.
joe rogan
Federal government just decides.
They're dictators.
They just decide.
I don't give a fuck what you voted for.
The whole group of us, we say fuck you.
And we say fuck you about something that's never killed a single person ever.
bryan callen
Amazing.
joe rogan
We're talking about all these different things that kill people.
We're talking about salt killing people and aspirin killing people and how many people die from drinking too much water.
Even though millions of people smoke weed, no one dies from it.
You just can't do it.
You can't do it.
You could die from water way quicker than you could die from weed.
bryan callen
Isn't that weird?
Goddamn.
joe rogan
It's stupid as fuck.
And the fact that people will go to jail for that and have gone to jail for that is stupid as fuck.
It's a magic plant.
bryan callen
It's another thing that's changing.
It's another thing.
I think the evidence is just too overwhelming.
joe rogan
It is.
bryan callen
It's an old law, but it's amazing how slowly these things move when it comes to getting rid of a law.
Because there's a cottage industry that grows up around enforcing that law.
joe rogan
Exactly.
bryan callen
And there's a lot of money in enforcing.
joe rogan
Lobbyists when it comes to prison guard groups that want to keep their jobs, privatize prisons.
There's a lot of that.
bryan callen
It's the issue with the flat tax.
Why not just tax people a certain percentage?
Just make a flat tax.
No big deal.
There are just too many vested interests in how the tax code is so complicated.
You've got to hire accountants.
And you've got to hire a lot of people to help you with that stuff.
joe rogan
So do you think that's why people don't want a flat tax?
bryan callen
It's one of the reasons the pressure is on.
It's just people who have an incentive to keep the system the way it is.
joe rogan
Well, it's also the fact that we were talking about before where you don't have to...
For all the money that you give them?
That seems insane.
Like, could you imagine a new system, if they tried to start it off fresh today?
We just want, you know, X amount of money, and hey, don't worry about it, we're just gonna run everything.
But you should show me where my money went.
Show everybody where their money went, and let's all compare notes.
Find out how much money is being spent on shit that we don't want at all.
You don't get to say.
bryan callen
Well, right now, I don't know what I'm taxed, but I probably see half my money.
joe rogan
Just think about it.
You work for the government.
bryan callen
I was going to say, 50% of my day is spent working for someone else.
For the government.
joe rogan
You spend a lot of money.
That money gets taxed.
Everything you buy gets taxed.
And on top of that, the money itself gets taxed.
unidentified
Yeah.
bryan callen
That's right.
So how much?
How much do they really need?
joe rogan
How big is it?
What are they doing with it?
bryan callen
Passing laws and enforcing those laws and taxing.
It takes a lot to run a coercive body called the U.S. federal government.
How much can be trimmed?
The libertarian believes that government should be treated like a necessary evil.
You need it for some things.
That's the motto.
But you should treat it as though it's a necessary evil.
Be aware that government always does two things.
It always grows, and its nature is coercive.
And I'm going to quote my father.
This is not my idea.
But he always says, government is a business of intent.
Not results.
There's an intention.
There's an intention.
I'm gonna pass a healthcare law.
It's gonna be 2,400 pages.
Nobody will read it.
No one who votes it into law.
They're not gonna read it.
It's just too complicated.
But it'll be 2,400 pages and actually more than that at the end of it.
And it's intended to make healthcare more affordable for everybody.
Who wouldn't want that?
I do.
joe rogan
It's like the Patriot Act.
bryan callen
Yeah, it's the intention.
Now let's see how it works in practice.
That's what you have to be aware of.
It's not very effective.
And more importantly, we should all know that it's not the only answer.
There are other ways to engineer What we call equality of opportunity.
There are other ways.
You just have to be a little more creative than to say, let's tax the rich, quote-unquote.
Well, by the way, the rich and the poor, it's always changing, isn't it?
Isn't it always moving?
Some people start out in bad jobs.
They work their way up, make a lot of money.
You've got to just be careful when you talk about this stuff.
It's a changing definition.
And we are stuck in orthodoxy of thinking.
We break into camps.
joe rogan
It was established a long fucking time ago when the world was different.
The world was way different when they started establishing income tax.
It was just way different.
And they could get away with dictator-type shit like that.
But if there was no tax system in place and they just started taxing us, taking all this money, we'd be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what the fuck, man?
Like if you were just paying state taxes.
Or just paying income tax.
Or just sales tax.
bryan callen
But there's a way to make taxes really fair.
Like, I think there should be a carbon tax.
And what I mean by that is that if you spend a lot of money on...
If you put a lot of carbon in the air, then just pay your share.
So in other words, if you have a really big...
If you want to buy a big truck with lots of power, that's fine.
But it's going to cost you a little more money.
Whatever carbon you use, depending on what kind of fossil fuel you use, it's going to put out a certain metric of carbon in the air.
You could tax it that way.
You don't have to tax everybody.
joe rogan
That makes sense.
It also makes sense, the idea that if you buy something, like say if you buy a new car, you're going to use the roads.
You're benefiting from some other work that had to be done and had to be paid for.
So for every percentage of every car, there should be something that goes to some highway fund.
bryan callen
I think there is, by the way.
joe rogan
That makes sense.
bryan callen
Yeah.
joe rogan
That totally makes sense.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
I think a lot of taxes make sense.
What doesn't make sense is that we don't get an accounting of it, and that it's totally...
I mean, the budget, and when you find out what the deficit is, you're like, wait a minute, what are you talking about?
What does that even mean?
Trillions of...
You owe trillions?
To fucking who?
bryan callen
Let me ask you this question.
So when you're paying for Social Security, whether you know it or not, you're paying Social Security.
So when you retire at 65, you'll be eligible to a check every month or a week or whatever.
joe rogan
Do you get that even if you're rich?
bryan callen
Now let me ask you this.
You do?
unidentified
Why?
bryan callen
You do?
Good question.
But more importantly...
unidentified
That's crazy.
bryan callen
You're going to get it when it starts at 65, right?
It's the people's bank.
What happens when you die at 64?
What happens to that money?
joe rogan
What happens to it?
bryan callen
Exactly.
Guess what?
joe rogan
What?
bryan callen
Your family doesn't get it.
unidentified
What?
bryan callen
What I understand, it goes into the ether.
joe rogan
So someone steals it?
bryan callen
Uh-huh.
Where does your Social Security go when you die?
joe rogan
Back into the till?
bryan callen
That's what I believe.
unidentified
And then what happens there?
bryan callen
I don't know, but you've been paying into a till for a long time.
joe rogan
Well, you have to look no further than civil forfeiture laws.
Look at those fucking creepy things, where they just pull you over and you have $10,000 on you, and they decide we're going to take it because we think you're selling drugs.
unidentified
Goddamn.
joe rogan
I'm on my way to buy a fucking car!
They could take your money, and then you've got to fight for it in court.
Well, you're going to have to prove it, big guy.
And they'll take your fucking money and spend it on shit for their precinct.
bryan callen
It's the biggest thing you have to watch out for.
joe rogan
These guys got busted.
They bought a margarita machine.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe rogan
With the money that they stole from someone.
bryan callen
What a surprise.
What a surprise.
The growth of the state.
What you mean by growth of the state is just more people.
joe rogan
More people.
bryan callen
People who are in a position of power over you.
joe rogan
And when they have something written down, they think they're allowed to enforce it because it's written down.
It's a law.
Look, it's written right there.
Even if it doesn't make any sense.
bryan callen
And then you have to, don't forget, if you have a law and then you have people that enforce the law, you must also have watchdogs.
You have to have an agency that actually watches those people, just like the cops have internal affairs.
joe rogan
But who watches the watchers?
bryan callen
So the biggest question in political philosophy is what?
The biggest question in political philosophy is who is governing the governor?
unidentified
Yeah.
bryan callen
I'm so fucking profound.
joe rogan
Not really.
bryan callen
Hey, Jamie, can you look up that Social Security statistic?
joe rogan
Which statistic?
bryan callen
Where does the money go?
unidentified
I'm looking right now.
bryan callen
Thank you.
joe rogan
We're going to have to wrap this bitch up.
bryan callen
What time is it?
It's so much fun.
joe rogan
It's 4.17.
bryan callen
Oh, by the way, before I forget, and Big Brown will kick my ass, our shirts are dropping Monday at 7 p.m.
We've got these new awesome shirts that I wish I said I had a hand in designing, but Big Brown did.
And they're some of our best shirts yet.
7 o'clock Monday, 7 p.m.
They're dropping.
Fight out the kid tease.
joe rogan
Here's the reality.
If you should die before you begin to get your monthly check, your family will get a payment in cash amounting to 3.5 cents on every dollar of wages you have earned after 1936. If, for example, you should die at age 64 and you had it earned $25 a week for 10 years before that time, your family would receive $455.
bryan callen
That's not much.
joe rogan
I think that's trying to say, on the other hand, it says on tile other hand.
On the other hand, if you have not worked enough to get the regular monthly checks by the time you're 65, you will get a lump sum.
Or if you should die, your family or estate would get a lump sum.
bryan callen
So you only get 3.5 cents on every dollar of wages that you earned.
joe rogan
They get 3.5 cents on every dollar of wages that you earned after 1936. So is that 3.5%?
3.5 cents on every dollar.
jamie vernon
I think this is also from 1936. Oh, Jesus.
This could have also changed since then, but this is on the Social Security website.
joe rogan
Yeah, we shouldn't read anything.
Those people thought the world was flat.
bryan callen
Yeah, I think it might be different now.
joe rogan
It might be different.
bryan callen
It is.
joe rogan
Social Security, the idea of...
I mean, who knows how much it's changed.
But the idea behind it is great.
You know, the idea that you're going to throw some money in and that it's going to help old people out when they can't work anymore.
It sounds wonderful, but they live in abject poverty.
bryan callen
God, it doesn't pay much.
joe rogan
God, it pays so little.
bryan callen
I know.
joe rogan
And how else could you do it?
I mean, is there enough money out there to pay everybody well?
bryan callen
I get a SAG pension.
I'll get some real money for my SAG pension.
unidentified
Look at you.
bryan callen
I'm an actor, man.
Screen Actors Guild, bro.
joe rogan
Sexy bitch.
bryan callen
All that time in acting class paid off, kids.
joe rogan
Brian motherfucking Callen with a Y, B-R-Y. You got Irvine tonight.
I gotta go.
The traffic to Irvine is a motherfucker.
bryan callen
Yes, you do.
joe rogan
Had a great time there last night.
Bunch of crazy drunks.
Birthday parties and shit.
It's her birthday!
bryan callen
Oh, come see me in San Francisco.
joe rogan
Go see them, you fucks.
bryan callen
Punchline, June 25th, 26th, 27th.
joe rogan
Go, my friends.
bryan callen
Or is it 26th, 27th, 28th?
I don't know, man.
Figure it out.
joe rogan
Something wacky along those lines.
bryan callen
Punchline, San Francisco, June.
joe rogan
Punchline, San Francisco, June.
One of the best clubs in the country, by the way.
bryan callen
Love it.
joe rogan
Love it.
Perfectly designed.
Got a great vibe to it.
All right, you fucks.
We'll see ya.
Much love.
bryan callen
It's not very professional.
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