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April 1, 2014 - The Joe Rogan Experience

02:37:32

Joe Rogan Experience #479 - Joel Salatin

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joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Hello, my friends.
		This episode of the Joe Rogan Experience is sponsored by Stamps.com.
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		We are also brought to you by Lumosity.com.
		Lumosity.com is essentially like an online gym for your brain.
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	We are also brought to you by Onnit.com.
	That's O-N-N-I-T. Onnit is a human optimization website.
	What we sell is essentially everything that I find that I use.
	Whether it's strength and conditioning equipment, whether it's health and nutrition supplements, whether it's foods like hemp forest protein bars or the earth-grown nutrient supplement that we suggest that a lot of people add to your daily shakes in the morning to cover your nutritional needs.
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	We would all like to get all of our nutrients from food if and whenever possible.
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	But if you go to Onnit.com and click on the AlphaBrain link, there's actually a bunch of science behind it, a bunch of research behind it, with references.
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joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we did that a while ago.
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unidentified		Ecstasy.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was green and yellow.
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joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You know?
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		Joel Salatin is here, and we're going to talk to him, and we're going to learn some shit.
unidentified		Hit the button.
		The Joe Rogan Experience.
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joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		A sure sign, sir, that we live in a mad, mad world is when a person has sane ideas and he comes across as a revolutionary.
		And I have Joel Salatin, for folks who don't know, he is an American farmer, a lecturer, you're an author.
		And your approach to farming is so natural and so normal and so, in my opinion, non-controversial.
		It's quite fascinating that in this day and age, with this mad, mad world of factory farming and pumping these animals full of hormones and chemicals and antibiotics, that your approach has sort of revolutionized a lot of the ideas that people have about farming.
		I think it's a real sign that there's something wrong with us.
		When I watch your methods and I've seen your videos and I've heard you talk on it, it seems like no nonsense, it seems like it seems normal, it seems like common sense, it seems like old knowledge, but yet you're looked at as some sort of a wild man out there.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		A lunatic!
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You're a lunatic, you're nice to your animals.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we are.
		I mean, you know, people say, oh, you're just so clever, you know, how do you come up with this?
		And my response is that this is not new, you know.
		I mean, take just for example, you know, our culture, I mean, our experts, you know, our U.S. duh, and our U.S. duh, our experts.
		USDA. Yeah.
		You know, they don't think that animals are supposed to move.
		I mean...
		But animals are supposed to move.
		I mean, that's like a fundamental natural pattern.
		And so if you posit, oh, animals are supposed to move?
		Well, then a whole series of things happen, you know, from control mechanisms, shelter, water delivery systems, all sorts of things happen to happen if you just posit something as intuitively simple as, on our farm, animals are going to move.
		It's amazing.
		So, you know, if animals are going to move, you have to keep them home.
		You have to be able to move them, you know, in the right place at the right time.
		So then you have to have portable control mechanisms.
		Or you got to keep them, you know, comfortable.
		So then you have portable shade mechanisms.
		And you got to give them water.
		So we've got to be able to have portable water.
		And so all these things necessarily flow from just something as basic as Animals move.
		I find it fascinating.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It is fascinating because most people have, they've gone the opposite way with it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What they've said is, we don't want animals to move, so let's contain them.
unidentified		Right.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		I mean, so the industrial system is predicated on, you know, we lock all these animals up in a confinement facility, you know, 15,000 chickens in a house, Nine laying hens in a 16 by 22 inch cubicle.
		I mean, there's not enough room even to sit down.
		Cattle in feedlots.
		Pigs in confinement houses.
		And we do the same thing kind of in our plants.
		I mean, the next thing then is, in nature, there are no monocultures.
		There are no monospecies.
		Anywhere you go in nature, No matter where you hike, there's going to be at least two species.
		You're going to encounter multiple things.
		In fact, you're going to encounter animals and plants in proximity.
		Amazing!
		It's not going to be fields of animal-less wheat or fields of animal-less strawberries.
		And then over here, the animals confined in a little itty-bitty building.
		Stinking up the neighborhood.
		Instead, in nature, these things are actually proximate, and they're actually symbiotic.
		I mean, they actually have a lot of synergistic functions to each other.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I found it fascinating that when you raise your pigs, you call them wood-finished, forest-finished pigs?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we call them...
		You know, pasture-finished or acorn glens.
		We call them glens, you know, for the old leprechauns, you know, lurking in the woods and in the forest.
		It just has a nice ring to it.
		But, yeah, we use electric fence.
		In other words, this is not, you know, Luddite.
		This is not anti-technology stuff.
		What we're doing is using pigs.
		All pigs have four-wheel drive and they like to disturb places.
		I mean, you know, they have a great big plow on the end of their face called a nose.
		And so all we're doing is taking the way buffalo and fire and predators used to move across the landscape with periodic disturbance.
		We don't have buffalo anymore.
		We don't have the fire.
		We don't even have the wolves much.
		And so how do we create this disturbance?
		This is a very important ecological principle that living organisms have to be disturbed in order to have succession to another level, whether it's The pain that comes from exercise.
		If you want to be physically fit, you got to disturb your body.
		You got to get up off a couch potato.
		And ecology is the same way.
		It needs to be disturbed.
		And so actually the ecology is used to having a lot of disturbance factors on it.
		Disturbance and then rest.
		Disturbance and then rest.
		And so we use high-tech electric fencing to be able to move these pigs around in these forest glens from one little section to another in a kind of rapid rotation so that we have very intense disturbance and then a long period of rest.
		Intense disturbance, and what that does is the pigs then go in and they till, they eat bugs that would affect the trees, they root out starchy, weedy species, things like that, and eat a lot of goodies.
		They get fresh air, they get exercise, sunshine, and are able to fully express their pigness.
		And what you end up with then is an incredibly nutrient-dense product as opposed to a white meat flabby product like out of the industry.
		And the other thing is that you now have a whole new bunch of species that have germinated and sprouted in this disturbed environment, this disturbed soil, and you actually...
		You actually capture more solar energy than you would with just leaves and sterile forest bottom.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So the actual product, the pig itself, would be more like a wild pig then?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's exactly right.
		In fact, we supply about 50 restaurants and we've had chefs do displacement tests where they'll get like industry pork and our pork and using their very Carefully calibrated scales,
		they can make two blocks of meat that are exactly the same weight, put them in a pan of water, measure the displacement, and our pork displaces less water per pound than the industrial pork.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What does that mean?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Well, what it means is that the tissue is stronger.
		In other words, there is more weight per cubic inch.
		Which means it's better formed.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Why would that do this?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		We call that muscle tone.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I see.
		I see.
		So they're denser.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Fat and flab, if we could say.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Flab is a lot more volume per pound.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I see.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		If you jump in a swimming pool and you're really muscle toned, sometimes you have trouble floating.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Mm-hmm.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		But if you're a fat person, you can float in that water like a blimp all day.
		It just works fine.
		So density, muscle tone and density, Can be measured with a displacement test.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's fascinating.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So this much more nutrient-dense...
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Is it preferred by these chefs flavor-wise?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		I mean, that's why they get it.
		And the result is that you actually get more nutrition per pound because it's denser.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I smoked a wild ham for the first time this past weekend, and it was fascinating how much different it tasted than a regular ham.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So your hams would be similar to that.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Right, that's right.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Darker meat.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Darker, yeah.
		You know, when the industry says pork, you know, remember they had the campaign for, what, 10 years, pork the other white meat?
		I think now it's...
		They abandoned that slogan.
		Now it's something like, you know, get with it or something like that.
unidentified		Be inspired.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Be inspired.
unidentified		Be inspired by an animal that lives in a box.
unidentified		How crazy is that?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so, you know, my father-in-law, he's in his 80s now, and, you know, they used to raise hogs on their farm.
		And it's interesting, they built there, they had a kind of a shed shelter where the pigs would go in and eat, like, soured milk and whey and leftovers from, they had milked about 20 cows, and so there'd always be leftovers.
		And the pigs would go in there.
		Well, they actually built it with the sill Two feet above the ground so the pigs had to jump up in there and that exercise made their hams taste way better and it increased oxygen flow to their hams so the meat was rose-colored rather than white.
		And that rose color indicates iron, hemoglobin iron.
		So the exercise of jumping in and the extra...
		I collect old ag books.
		Anything before 1950 is pretty good.
		After that, it all went to pot.
		And...
		If you read any old 1910, 1920, 1900 swine book, the first thing it'll say is, exercise, exercise, because the pork responds to that oxygenation.
		Of the blood and makes the meat a deep, rich color, which indicates iron.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That is so fascinating.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So this white meat, this pork the other white, what a crazy ad campaign that is then.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Of course it is.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's based entirely on ignorance.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Sure it is.
		Yes, it is.
		I mean, the same thing as, you know, our chickens are vegetarians.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Right.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's ridiculous.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Birds are omnivores.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		I mean, whoever saw a robin refused a worm.
		You know, I mean, birds are omnivores.
		So this whole idea of, you know, vegetarian-fed chickens is just...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Those would be sick chickens.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it makes, you know, pale, nutrient deficient eggs.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there's a big difference in the color of the eggs.
		I have chickens.
		I have 13 chickens in my yard.
		And my wife and I have been doing that for the past year and a half now.
		And it's amazing how much better the eggs taste.
		It's amazing how much darker the yolk is.
		It's like a dark orange.
		And, you know, we have a big yard and we keep them in.
		We have a huge house built that's bigger than this studio, bigger than this room at least.
		And the chickens all live in there.
		They have plenty of room to run around.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Taj Mahal chicken house.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's a big chicken house.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And then we open the door and let them roam around the yard and, you know, pick up bugs and worms and all that stuff.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		And express their chickenness.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's a good way to put it.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		In our country right now, in the industrial foods, I call it the industrial corporate U.S. duh fraternity.
		They don't view life as fundamentally biological.
		They view life as fundamentally mechanical.
		That's the big difference between the industrial food perspective and what I'll call a more craft-oriented food perspective.
		Is food fundamentally biological or is it mechanical?
		And they don't ask.
		I've never seen a research project that starts with an umbrella supposition Let's define what makes a happy chicken or a happy pig.
		It's all about how do we grow them faster, fatter, bigger, cheaper, as if they're just inanimate piles of protoplasmic structure to be manipulated however cleverly Hubris can imagine to manipulate them.
		And I would suggest that a culture that views its food, its plant, and animals from that kind of mechanistic, manipulative standpoint will view its people the same way and other cultures the same way.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's a very good point.
		Both points.
		Yeah, that's a very good point.
		Do you think that your style of farming, is that possible on a large scale?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		That's my favorite question.
		Can we feed the world?
		Because ultimately, all of this is an exercise in feel-goodness, warm fuzziness, unless it actually does translate to feeding the world.
		So let's take that and interrupt me any time.
		First of all, for the first time in human history, we're producing twice as much human edible food as we need on the planet.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Twice as much?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Half of all human edible food never gets eaten by a human.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		That's the first time that's ever happened.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Which means that if you or I could click our fingers today and suddenly double the Earth's food production, not a single other person would get a meal.
		People go hungry not because there's not enough food, but because of food.
		Demographic problems, infrastructure problems, there's not a road, cultural issues like in inner cities that have been taken over by drugs, mayhem, and...
		Gangs.
		Businesses don't want to go there.
		You know, people with integrity food don't want to go there.
		And so there's a tremendous amount of waste.
		I mean, I was talking to a guy that just was at a green bean factory in Zimbabwe.
		They were exporting to Europe, and they were taking in five tons a day and only shipping two tons.
		I said, what happened to those three tons?
		Well, they're crooked.
		They're too long.
		They're too short.
		They've got a little black spot, you know.
		And...
		So we're wasting a lot of food.
		Secondly, there is a tremendous amount of land that's not being used because we have a fundamentally segregated food system, not an integrated food system.
		So we produce the food over here, and we eat it over here, we feed it over here, we have the manure over here.
		The old integrated system is no longer...
		There are 35 million acres of lawn in the U.S. and 36 million acres housing and feeding recreational horses.
		That's 71 million acres.
		That's enough to feed the entire U.S. without a single farm or ranch.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So this food that's going bad, so if we're making twice as much food as people need, is it a matter of the food deteriorating too quickly to get to people or it's never going to get to people?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		It's never going to get to people.
		You know, go by the back door of any supermarket produce department and you will see, you know, dumpsters full.
		of spoiled stuff.
		One of the reasons, I mean there are numerous reasons.
		There are residue problems, for example, you know, a dairy that accidentally dumps some antibiotic, for example, and then it taints a whole tractor trailer load of milk.
		That's common.
		That's common.
		You have cosmetic issues.
		You know, a piece of fruit that has one little blemish.
		Throw away.
		The long warehousing and chain of custody between field and fork, that creates spoilage issues.
		And so, you know, there are just a lot of factors in the system that don't do it, that spoil food.
		That being said, we can absolutely grow a lot more food than we do.
		People are enamored.
		You know, they see, you know, six combines running side by side down through a Kansas wheat field and Wow, look at that!
		Or they see a great big 500-acre fumigated strawberry field in California.
		Wow, look at all that production!
		But the fact is that even a very rudimentary, almost poorly done backyard garden...
		Is more productive per square yard than the most industrial, sophisticated, technologically advanced, monospeciated industrial farm.
		That's the truth.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Why is that?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Why is that?
		It's because when you diversify, when you have a diversified cornucopia of plants and animals in proximity, you actually have a synergistic effect.
		So that instead of growing one species, if you reduce the production of one species and grow two species on the same area, you get like 120% of your production.
		So for example, we have pastured livestock, so we run the cows across the pasture.
		We run the egg mobiles behind them.
		The egg mobiles have chickens that Scratch through the cow patties and eat now the newly exposed grasshoppers and crickets that the cows exposed by eating the grass.
		And then we run broiler chickens, meat chickens, over that same ground.
		We run turkeys over that same ground.
		And so all of those animals, they're not on the same square foot at the same time, but they go like...
		Different waves of production across the landscape.
		And so, whereas the normal farm would have only one of those species confined in a little tiny building, we have an acre being used all throughout the year with a lot of different kinds of species going across.
		Suddenly you don't have the pathogens because the pathogens are confused because, you know, The cow pathogen hatches out next to a chicken pathogen and they're toxic to each other.
		So they have a war and they fight and they die.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They cancel each other out.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Which is really what's supposed to happen in nature.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		Absolutely.
		And so the kind of diversity you see on the Serengeti in Africa, at a waterhole in Zimbabwe, whatever.
		I mean, those kinds of diversities...
		A, they protect the animals from their own pathogens because almost all pathogens are species specific.
		So if you put multiple diversity together, it acts as a dead end.
		But secondly, those animals occupy different spaces.
		You've got herbivores, omnivores, carnivores.
		They're all occupying the same space and so a given area That's a permaculture concept, if you're familiar with permaculture.
		It can stack synergistic, multiple species and enterprise on a single land base.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Brian, pull up Polyface Farms.
		There's a video, a fascinating video, so the folks at home can get a sense of what he's talking about when he's saying eggmobiles.
		You've designed this sort of chicken house that moves around.
		It's on like sleds?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		It's all wheels.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And you pull it around, and so the chickens will be in one spot, and then you move it to another spot.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And in doing so, you allow the land to get moved around.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		Rather than having a stationary structure where we're carrying everything in and carrying everything out and there's a toxicity buildup with the animals being confined to one spot all the time, instead you are actually allowing the animals to move to mimic kind of their migratory pattern on a domestic scale.
		All we're doing is we're cutting out the natural template.
		And laying it down on a domestic production model, say, how can we duplicate this pattern on a domestic model?
		That's what we're doing.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And in doing so in such a large scale...
		Can this be duplicated?
		Like the factory farming systems that are so rightly criticized in this country, which we find to be abhorrent.
		When you look at these videos of these chickens living stacked next to each other, it's horrific stuff.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		It is.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What is it that's beneficial about those factory farms that keeps them from doing something like this?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Well, what you have to understand is that those factory farms externalize a lot of their costs.
		So there's collateral damage, that collateral damage in terms of water pollution, fecal particulate in the air.
		One of the biggest ones right now is C. diff and MRSA, you know, these antibiotic-resistant high-pass staph infections in hospitals that people are getting.
		And now, of course, we're seeing an exponential growth in autism.
		There's a link there to, for example, genetically modified organisms.
		That might be another discussion.
		But what I'm getting at is that the collateral damage...
		Of the industrial food system, including the nutrient deficiency, the fact that the omega-6s and omega-3s are way out of whack.
		So the fats, instead of reducing cholesterol, instead of being beneficial, are negative.
		There are huge nutrient deficiencies.
		I mean, riboflavin.
		The eggs in your backyard chickens are probably in the area of a thousand micrograms per egg.
		You know what the official USDA nutrient analysis for eggs is?
		Only 48 micrograms per egg.
		I'm sorry, not riboflavin.
		Folic acid, that's folic acid.
		Grass-finished beef, 300% more riboflavin.
		Riboflavin, of course, is what helps us to keep calm and not fly off the handle.
		It's the nerve.
		Riboflavin is the nerve one.
		You know, why are people raging and going crazy and, you know, shooting people in schools and stuff?
		We're deficient of riboflavin.
		So, you know, when people say, oh, it doesn't make any difference.
		Food is food is food.
		That's not true.
		I mean, there's a huge difference in this food.
		Vegetables the same way, whether they're grown in mineral-dense, biologically active soil compared to hydroponic or just what we call IV soil, where the soil is just inert material to hold up a root, and we basically IV chemical fertilizers into that soil to grow a plant.
		So there are...
		There are significant differences in the nutritional element.
		So this is all collateral damage.
		And the slinky effect between cause and effect takes a while.
		I mean, take DDT. DDT, it took 14 years from its initial use until 14 years later it was definitively discovered.
		Oh, that's why we have three-legged salamanders, infertile frogs, and dead zones.
		And eagles' eggs won't hatch.
		Those cause and effects took a while to materialize because nature's pretty resilient.
		You can beat yourself up for a while and still come out kicking for a while.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And I'm sure there's probably also financial factors that were resisting the conclusions.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Well, exactly.
		All of that collateral damage is deferred expense.
		Whether it's obesity, health care, pollution cleanup, Superfund sites, soil loss, aquifer depletion, desertification,
		these are all deferred damages because in our country we don't have an accounting system to measure Our only accounting system is cash, gross domestic product, today's output.
		We don't have a way to measure these other elements.
		I'll give you one example.
		Let's take earthworms.
		Let's agree that earthworms are pretty important.
		Well, who presents a business plan today to an investor?
		And the investor says, hey, I kind of like this business plan.
		I think this is a good idea.
		Can I be your partner?
		We're going to be millionaires on this business.
		But before I sign my investment strategy, I've got one question for you.
		I'm from the South, so you've got to have a big hog.
		But I've got to ask you one question.
		What's this business going to do to the earthworms in our community?
		Nobody asks that.
		And yet, fundamentally, the mycorrhizae, the earthworms, the azobacter bacteria, the mycelium, the hydra, they actually, this invisible community of beings, Actually supports all of life, what we see.
		Every visible thing that we see is supported by an invisible universe of microscopic bacteria and beings in us, around us, in the soil.
		They're cousins.
		And now we know they talk to each other.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So, in a sense, what we're getting with factory farming is one small unit in the environment extracting money at the expense of Of all these other factors and these extraneous costs...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Aren't factored in.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Because they don't have to be.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		They don't have to be.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Our system is not set up for accounting those other things.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's fascinating.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So if it was done correctly, if it was all done your way, although it would be more expensive, those external expenses wouldn't exist.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		In the big scheme of things, the actual...
		The actual cost of food would actually be cheaper because you wouldn't have the collateral damage.
		I mean, just take one example in our lifetime, mad cow disease.
		I mean, realize for 30 years, the European and the American expert credential, you know, PhD academic community took farmers like me to free steak dinners to teach us this new scientific method of feeding dead cows to cows.
		And our farm was branded barbarian, Luddite, anti-progressive, you know, science haters because we didn't buy into that model.
		The reason we didn't buy into it was not because we were anti-science or anti-innovation or anything like that.
		It's because I looked around the earth and, you know, I couldn't find an herbivore that eats carrion.
		You know, I couldn't find it.
		And so we said, well, there must be a reason.
		And here, 30 years later, suddenly there's this big global collective, oops, maybe we shouldn't oughta done that!
		You know, as the whole scientific community realized, you know, what had happened.
		And so I just think that we have to appreciate that we are, in Western culture, you know, we're a product of, you know, Greco-Roman, Western reductionist, compartmentalized, fragmentized, systematized, individualized, democratized, parts-oriented, disconnected thinking.
		And there's an equally appropriate mindset from the East, which is we're all connected, we're all relatives, it's about wholes, it's about us, not just me.
		And that brings us an ethical framework as a protection over amoral innovation.
		You know, we're so clever, we can innovate things that we can't spiritually, morally, ethically, or physically metabolize.
		And so what happens is we innovate these things and then spend two generations trying to remediate the collateral damage that our innovations did.
		And if we would just embrace that there should be a moral, ethical, natural pattern...
		That restricts, that constrains our innovation, then our innovation could actually be kept on an earth massaging track instead of an earth conquistador track.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So you used to literally get courted to feed dead cows to cows?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
		Free seminars come out and they've got sponsors, the local agribusiness community and the The industrial complex would buy dinner.
		Sure, and you go hear these couple PhDs from the taxpayer-funded research universities.
		What was their motivation?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I don't understand why they would...
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Faster, bigger, cheaper, fatter.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		It's cheap.
unidentified		It's cheap protein.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Cheap food.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But the idea of making your cows cannibals.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah.
		Well, the industry still feeds, you know, chicken manure.
		I mean, well, we're still feeding in this country right now as we sit here, we're still feeding chicken feathers, manure, and chicken carcasses to chicken.
		They're doing it, you know, right in our neighborhood.
		So that's still being done.
		So we're still feeding, but at least it's not cows.
		All right.
		At least it's not cows.
		But yeah, it's completely absurd.
unidentified		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Why is it better to do it with chickens than cows?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Well, supposedly it's not the same kind of tissue.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		So at least it's one species removed.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		So you have a little bit of wiggle room for the rogue prions that create the bovine spongiform encephalopathy.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And that's the same disease that these cows get and mad cow disease that cannibals get, like in New Guinea, these neurological diseases where they can't move right and start shaking.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's these rogue prions, yeah.
		It punches holes in your brain.
		Yeah, it's a pretty...
		It's a pretty bad way to go.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it seems pretty dark.
		When did factory farming start?
		Like what we consider today factory farming.
		When did all that start?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, it's a great question.
		It really started in the 30s, 40s, and 50s.
		A lot of things had to come together.
		And of course, Michael Pollan in his, I think, Omnivore's Dilemma examines this pretty nicely.
		But to point out that Or Eric Schlosser in Fast Food Nation.
		You know, that was a blockbuster, you know, when it came out.
		And a lot of factors had to be in place.
		One was we had to have cheap energy.
		Because prior to...
		In order to have a factory farm, you have to have cheap transportation in order to bring...
		In order to concentrate that many beings in one place and feed them and remove their excrement.
		You have to have cheap transportation.
		Cheap transportation...
		Requires cheap energy.
		You know, when everything was draft power, you know, mules and horses and oxen, you simply couldn't amalgamate that many things.
		Whether it was animals or shoes or metal, you couldn't amalgamate that much material in that In one place.
		So every manufacturing facility, whether it was a farm or other manufacturing, had to nest within the carrying capacity of its ecological womb, if you will.
		There was a limit.
		How far can we cart stuff in and how far can we cart stuff out?
		There was a limit to that until we had cheap energy and cheap transportation.
		So that really, you know, catapulted this.
		Then the next thing we had to have, we had to have pipeable water.
		We had to have, so that meant plastic piping.
		We had to have very cheap piping.
		I mean, until then it was all cast iron pipe.
		You know, in the 1800s it was...
		You know, you took a piece of wood and took an auger and bored it out, you know, and pasted little pipes together.
		So, you know, we had to have plastic.
		So plastic had to be developed, which of course required petroleum.
		So petroleum was really a catalyst.
		And then finally, in order to keep that many animals alive in one spot, required antibiotics.
		Because the fecal particulate, the The fecal dust cloud, you know, that they live in, that they ingest, is very abrasive to the very tender mucous respiratory membranes.
		All the cilia and those very, you know, you look at them under a microscope and it's like going into a Steven Spielberg set, you know, it's just amazing.
		Well, those very tender mucous membranes It gets sandpapered by this fecal particulate, this abrasive air, and they bleed then.
		And this is how salmonella and some of these things get into the actual tissue, even into the eggs.
		Remember the Wisconsin farm with the salmonella?
		It actually gets into the oviduct because now the body's toxic tissue It's filters, it's strainers, have been overridden by this direct hemorrhaging of the tender mucous membranes that gets right into the bloodstream.
		So that's how it jumps those regular strainers.
		And so the antibiotics were necessary to try to, in order to keep the animals in such an unsterile, unhealthy environment, to keep them alive.
		I don't know whether you've watched just lately what's happened with pigs.
		It's been all over the newspapers and Wall Street Journal even.
		When you see pig futures hit Wall Street Journal, you know something's going on.
		And I think it was in January and part of February, they almost doubled.
		What's the problem?
		Starting April 1 last year, just April 1 last year, so we're literally 12 months into this, exactly 12 months.
		The industry started losing one in four piggies, industry-wide, to a viral diarrhea.
		Now my joke is, if there's one thing worse than diarrhea, it's got to be viral diarrhea.
		But anyway, this is attacking the industrial pigs.
		We're not seeing it out in the countryside in pastured pigs and our sort of things.
		But it's making pork futures skyrocket.
		The industry is on its heels.
		They're desperate to find a cure.
		Of course, finding a cure would mean changing their model.
		But of course, they're They're trying to find a technological cure, you know, some more potent concoction, all right, to knock this out in such an unhealthy environment.
		And so imagine that.
		I mean, nationwide of all the whatever millions of pigs, one in four, 25% of all piggies right now being born in the U.S. are dying.
		From viral diarrhea.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's incredible.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		It's a big deal.
		Big deal.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		This environment that you're talking about, this pathogen-rich environment where the fetal particulates in the air, completely not natural.
		In nature, they're in wide open fields and the air and the natural environment filters all this.
		This is something that's completely been over the last, you know, less than 100 years.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		It's very recent.
		It's only in the last You know, 50 to 60 years.
		Our rule of thumb is that good food production, good farming, good food production should be aesthetically and aromatically sensually romantic.
		You know, I mean, look, if you've got to walk through sheep dip and put on a hazmat suit to go visit your food, you might not want to eat it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Yeah, absolutely.
		Now, this idea of factory farming, this huge, large-scale thing where you're stuffing all these chickens into...
		Could those farms be converted to a more holistic approach like you're prescribing?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		That is such a great question, and...
		I'll tell you the truth.
		My heart goes out to farmers who have signed on the dotted line and been kind of taken in by this model.
		But the fact is they are so anti-nature that I don't see a retrofit.
		And that's one of the problems when you have capital-intensive infrastructure.
		When you have single-designed or single-use capital-intensive infrastructure, even when it becomes a detriment to society to have that infrastructure, we still have to use it because we're economically and emotionally vested in it.
		Our toys run our thinking.
		I mean, look at...
		Look at the health field.
		I mean, we have to use our infrastructure because it's really expensive.
		And so we've got to use this stuff.
		And the same thing is true in farming now.
		When you pour that much concrete and bend that much rebar, you feel compelled to use it.
		So it's a real problem.
		And I just don't see really efficient ways of retrofitting a lot of these structures.
		You know, they might make good miniature golf courses.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The smell, though.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		God.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Well, I mean, just to give you an example of some things that can be done with a different model, one is, just to give you an example, one is that if you go to a composting bedding, In an operation, you can ameliorate a lot of the problems.
		The problem is that that takes a lot of carbon.
		In order to have compost, you have to have a carbon-nitrogen ratio that's somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 to 35 to 1. All right?
		CN. It's called the CN ratio.
		And, of course, you have to have moisture, you have to have air, and you have to have microbes.
		So there's five components to a compost pile.
		But you have to have one other thing, and that is enough size to support an internal community of microbial beings.
		They've got to have their TV shows, they've got to build their roads, have their schools, and have banks and politicians and stuff, too.
		So it takes room for these microorganisms to build those communities.
		You can't build a compost pile that's 12 inches by 12 inches by 12 inches.
		Too small.
		The smallest size is like a yard by a yard by a yard.
		All right.
		Well, the problem is that in most factory farming facilities, not only can you not even have any bedding in there, the animals are on slatted floors or virtually concrete.
		There is no life, there is no community of beings, good community of beings.
		In nature, a lot of people don't realize there are a lot more good bacteria than bad bacteria.
		There really aren't that many bad bacteria.
		In nature, if you're keeping score of things, there are actually a lot more good ones than bad ones when you come to this invisible world of little microbial beings.
		And so the default position of nature is health.
		We, in our culture right now, we've got things so out of whack that we just assume that the default position of nature is sickness.
		You know, that nature's broken and I've got to fix it.
		That's not true.
		The default position of nature is wellness and health.
		If there's sickness, then...
		Then that indicates something out of whack.
		There's a protocol that's been violated.
		So, one of the ways to house animals, at least temporarily, in shelter is to have a living blanket.
		I call it a carbonaceous diaper for them to live on that is deep enough and alive enough with all these microbes so that nematodes attack the pathogenic microbes so that in this sphere there's enough community of beings interacting in this war of good bugs and bad bugs.
		The good bugs beat out the bad bugs.
		That's the right position.
		And that can be done.
		We actually use that when we feed hay in the wintertime in our hay sheds.
		We use it for the pigs in the winter when they're in housing.
		For the brooder house where we start chicks, we have it where we can build up 24 inches of bedding.
		In the hay shed with the cows, we can go four feet deep with this carbonaceous, living, composting bedding.
		And that is a partial answer But the buildings that are currently designed can't handle a living compost medium for the animals to be on.
		They're structurally not designed to handle that.
		And so, you know, the retrofit becomes pretty tough.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's fascinating.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So it's almost like they need to be destroyed and need to be started from scratch.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		And the beautiful thing is, really, they don't need to be...
		Replaced with very much, they just need to be abandoned.
		You know, most great breakthroughs throughout history, breakthroughs, have been breakwiths, something.
		You know, think about the breakthrough for, for example, compact discs.
		You know, the Germans tried to do it for a long time, but they couldn't get past the long play disc model, you know?
		We just can't do it.
		And the Japanese, who didn't have a history of LP records like Germany did, they said, well, why does it have to be, you know, this size?
		Let's make it smaller.
		Boom!
		The Japanese owned it.
		You know, that whole market.
		So it was a breakwith tradition.
		And many innovations, many innovative things are breakwiths.
		That's the key to the breakthrough.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of people that don't realize that what we're dealing with when you're talking about a lot of the flus and a lot of the diseases that become pandemics that they start with livestock.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Avian flu, swine flu, some of the most horrific flus that we've experienced in the past hundred years have come as a direct result of this type of farming.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's right.
		The concentration of The total unnatural concentration and buildup of toxicity in these places is incredible.
		And so what happens is that the industry uses concoctions from something as benign as chlorine all the way to stiffer stuff to try to sanitize, clean, wash down, all that stuff.
		But all that does is open the door For the survivors, and every time a new concoction is developed, there are survivors.
		And the survivors become more and more virulent so that, for example, when the industry says, oh, look, E. coli, it's been around forever, you know, get over it.
		E. coli is part of a cow's digestion.
		Well, that's true, but not the virulent strains that we're developing by feeding the Unnatural feeds and the drugs.
		And so where those would normally be fairly benign in our highly acidic digestive system, they become more virulent and they survive in us instead of us killing them.
		And that's this evolution of things.
		I mean, you know, take Arkansas now where their farmers are now budgeting $70 per acre To hand machete superweeds that have morphed as a result of glyphosate, Roundup, because of genetically modified organism, corn and soybeans being planted, it's created these survivor superweeds.
		Because whenever we try to sterilize or sanitize, there are survivors.
		And those survivors become tougher and tougher and tougher.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		We are a bunch of dummies, aren't we?
		We really are.
		As a human race, we are just a bunch of silly dummies.
		There's an issue that is a big one with antibiotic soaps.
		A lot of people think it's real smart to wash with antibiotic soaps, but what they don't realize is that antibiotic soaps kill all the good flora on your skin as well.
		And it seems like that's really similar to what's going on here.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Your talk of the live bedding.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What that is, is nature's own way of dealing with the pathogens instead of pumping some chemicals into them.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And there's nothing unnatural about it.
		In other words, you don't get virulent survivors.
		They're all on the equal creation playing field, if you will.
		And our responsibility then is simply to create a habitat That allows this battlefield to play out in its natural setting.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Natural setting is the key because there is sort of a give and take, a place, a jigsaw puzzle piece place for all the various elements of a farm, of an ecosystem.
		And that's what you're addressing when you're...
		That's what I found so incredibly fascinating about the idea of continuing to move these animals.
		And you have these very low voltage electric fences that are just enough so they go, oh, I don't want to go near there.
		No one's getting hurt, but they're like...
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		No, it's called a psychological barrier.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's essentially a car battery you use, right?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a car battery powering an energizer.
		It has high voltage, but no amperage.
		So, you know, you get a lot of pain, but there's no danger because you're running like, you know, goodness, you know...
		A 20th of an amp, okay?
		I mean, there's no energy, but there's a lot of pressure.
		And so these systems, again, these are computer microchip systems.
		So I think as we've talked about how did the factory farm develop, I think perhaps rather than continue, you can go wherever you want to with the questions, but I would like to point out To folks that as bad as that is and depressing and yeah,
		we're a bunch of dummies and all that, my goodness, we have now innovated the most amazing infrastructure to be able for the first time in human history to caress our earth nest, our lover if you will, more strategically than And purposefully than we have ever been able to do it before.
		And the infrastructure is amazing.
		One is electric fencing.
		I mean, you can now, in a wheelbarrow full of material, you can now place hundreds of thousands of animals in a certain spot for a day.
		And And manage carefully their intersection with a given piece of nature.
		That's unprecedented.
		We've never been able to do that before.
		And we can protect them.
		We can make them comfortable Not with stationary barns and, you know, big post and beam, you know, you have to cut down the whole forest to do this, but now with bandsaw technology, instead of, you know,
		the big old circular saws that removed a quarter of an inch per cut, now with a little Honda engine, you know, that just sips fuel and a one-tenth of an inch thick We can now mill tinker toy-like lath structure material to build very lightweight portable barns, portable shelters.
		So we use those on our farm.
		We have all these portable infrastructures for turkeys, chickens, cows, pigs, so that we can move a shade tree or a barn and Protective shelter with the animals, with a four-wheeler, a couple of guys pushing it along.
		This portable infrastructure then...
		It allows us to keep the animals controlled and comfortable.
		And with black pipe, black pipe, we can lay miles.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What's black pipe?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		A plastic pipe.
		We can now develop a pond or a spring and put that water in a nice, clean delivery system, like the plumbing in your house.
		And deliver it miles so the animals aren't, you know, drinking out of their toilet.
		They're not, you know, pooping and then drinking out of it and all that like you see.
		No, they're actually eating.
		I mean, I drink out of the cow troughs.
		I mean, that water is clean enough for me to drink.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You drink out of that?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it builds up your immune system.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, how dare you?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		It builds up your immune system.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Does it?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Do you ever get sick?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		You know, knock on wood, I haven't been sick for years.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		I don't remember the last time I was sick.
unidentified		Wow.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		I mean, even with a cold.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Really?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, really.
		I mean, I take a lot of vitamin C every day.
		You know, ascorbic acid.
		I take my, you know, dopotropic for keep me, you know, from going crazy.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What's dopotropic?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		It's an herb mix.
		You know, it's related to dopamine and stuff, but it's a calmer.
		I travel so much now that in such an unnatural environment, you know, I was starting a couple years ago, I was starting into a kind of a fight or flight subconscious, fight or flight thing where I would get, I couldn't breathe, you know, on an airplane and stuff because it was, and, you know, I'd get all congested and all this.
		And I went to a quack, an alternative medical practitioner, that uses the kind of machines they use in Europe.
		When you go in the emergency room in Europe and you grab two probes and a little needle tells you everything that's wrong with you, it costs like pennies.
		That's how they can get along with government health care because they actually are smart about it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		One of these probes you hold on with your hands and they tell you what's wrong with you?
unidentified		Scientology.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no, it's pretty cool.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, I mean, it's not endorsed by any medical...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Does it work?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
unidentified		Listen...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What's it called?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		I thought it was funny, too.
		I went for my first visit.
		I sat down.
		She said, somewhere in your background, you had a bladder issue, didn't you?
		I hadn't said a word.
		I mean, I'm 57, right?
		When I was...
		How old was I? Eight.
		Eight.
		I had a malfunctioning kidney valve.
		A malfunctioning kidney valve almost died.
		I mean, this was a long time ago, right?
		They went in with surgery and repaired that valve.
		But what it was doing, it was letting my urine...
		Back up from my bladder, back up into the kidney.
		It's a one-way check valve, okay?
		So, you know, your bladder's under pressure, right?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Right.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		And that urine is supposed to only go one direction, all right?
		Into the bladder.
		Well, I had one malfunctioning valve that was letting, as the bladder filled up with pressure, it was the balloon was pushing the urine back up into the kidney.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Right.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		All right?
		So they went in and repaired it.
		Anyway, in 10 minutes, her machine picked up that Which was a 50-year-old bodily injury problem.
		And boy, I sat up and saluted at that point.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What's the machine called?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		I don't know what the machine's called.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		If I knew more about it, then somebody would come after me and put me in jail.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Quack watch.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Is that the same machine?
unidentified		It says that that's one of the machines.
unidentified		There's different kinds of models of it, I'm guessing.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		This is Quack Watch, though.
		This is a website that's saying it's a quack.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know if it's that machine or not.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I don't know if it's that machine or not either.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		I don't want to tell you who she is because she'd probably get put in jail if you knew who she was.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		Yeah.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Oh, the AMA?
		Yeah, I mean, you know, the AMA goes after people.
		My goodness, they go after raw milk producers and backyard chicken growers.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That is a true story.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's a true fact.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		There's an orthodoxy that's really crazy today.
		And of course, you know, we're heretics.
		And the Inquisition is very real.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, fooling patients with computerized magic eight balls.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I wonder if that's the same thing.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		I have no idea.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		I purposely try to not know all about it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The raw milk thing is a real craziness.
		Have you ever seen the – there was a story recently where they arrested people with a SWAT team for selling raw milk.
		I mean, they broke down doors, and they had guns, and they were wearing bulletproof vests, and they're just there.
		This is a farm.
		Just milk.
		And then somehow or another, because we've made milk so toxic because of these environments that you're describing, that you...
		When you drink raw milk on a normal farm like your farm where the cows are very healthy, you could drink that raw milk and it's actually easily digested.
		Your body digests it far more easy and a lot of people that are even lactose intolerant don't have a problem with the raw milk.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And the milk from an industrial farm is toxic.
		I mean, it does have a lot of problems.
		A lot of people don't realize that the Mayo Clinic was built.
		I mean, it started back during the early time of the century when cows were eating brewery waste, distiller's grains, because they were without refrigeration.
		They put the breweries and the cows together.
		And in these urban sectors, they didn't understand bacteria and hygiene and sanitation and all that stuff.
		So the cows got brucellosis and all these things, passed it on to people.
		And Mayo Clinic started putting cows back on pasture and feeding raw milk to their patients during the time when people were getting sick from urban, industrial, swill-fed cow milk.
		And that's how Mayo Clinic actually started.
		So That's a...
		Yeah, I mean, raw milk is a wonderful material, but the cow has to be treated like a cow.
		You know, you have to respect her cowness as a cow.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Respect her cowness.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		That's how you get...
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		You don't get all the milkness of milk if you don't respect the cowness of the cow.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Right.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		And so what's happened is that the industry is so filthy and pathogen, you know, and toxic that...
		And people fear food because the average person is fearful of food.
		I mean, the average person is far more informed about the latest dysfunction in the Kardashian household than they are.
		What's going to become flesh of their flesh and bone of their bones at 6 o'clock?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I like how you pronounce it.
unidentified		Kardashians.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That show is you really don't have a TV. I really like it.
unidentified		No, I don't.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		I don't.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		So, whatever they are, whoever they are.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		I'm still asking.
		That butt, though.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		That butt.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's the butt.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		It's all it is.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		It's all about...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's all you need.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Put a butt on TV and people will watch.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		So, the point is, though, that people are so paranoid of food and ignorant about food that they fear food today.
		I mean, we have customers call us up...
		If I thaw a chicken in a sink, will it get salmonella?
		I mean, there's a profound ignorance in our culture regarding food because we're disconnected from it.
		And so afraid people ask for security from the government.
		Well, the government says, well, let's see, what should be our protocols?
		They go to the industry for the answers and concoct an orthodoxy.
		That actually shuts out the antidote for the very problems they're trying to solve.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The idea that the government would have any solutions whatsoever to that is pretty ridiculous in the first place, because who would be the person that would be an expert on this?
		Would it be the industry that creates a lot of these problems?
		What we need is a guy like you working for the government.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I wouldn't work for...
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		If I got chosen to work for the government, whatever agency I was in charge of, I'd shut it down before Sunday.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What would you do if, like, let's say there's some catastrophic failure of our government and they just decide to quit, and everybody just decides to go under, and we need to figure out how to regulate farms.
		What could be done?
		What could be done at this point?
		I mean, you're suggesting that the factory farms, there's no retrofit, they should be destroyed, and you're better off building miniature golf courses over them.
		How would we be able to distribute food to a nation of hungry people?
		Is it possible to use your methods, the methods you use, and how big is your farm in Virginia?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Well, we own 550 acres, and we lease another nine farms, so we're running 2,000 acres.
		And we're producing a lot of food.
		In fact, we produce We surpassed the county average in production on pasture by about a threefold amount, which is pretty significant.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So factory farms, given the same amount of space, produce less.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		In fact, the thing that's important to realize when you look at a factory farm, when the industry shows this picture of this big chicken house or this big pig factory or cow feed lot or a square mile of Strawberries in California.
		What you have to understand is those systems are not stand-alone islands.
		When they say, look at the efficiency, the small footprint, what they're not showing you are the square miles of subsidized grain or petroleum inputs, the land area that all that takes is To sustain that little footprint and then the land that it takes to assimilate all of the waste stream from that.
		So our system doesn't take one more square yard of production than the factory system.
		The fact that we're Doing, you know, stackable synergistic symbiotic multi-speciated enterprises, it's more productive.
		But when you look at what we're producing, even though, you know, at first glance, the uneducated might say, well, it takes a lot more land to produce them this way.
		Actually, you're seeing all the land.
		Just like when people say, well, it takes more people farming to do it your way.
		Yeah, but you know what?
		We don't have people fixing pollution areas.
		We don't have people burying people with C. diff and MRSA. We're not making People sick from salmonella and E. coli.
		Are you with me?
		So in total, all we're doing is taking all the people that are currently trying to triage the collateral damage of cheap food.
		We're taking all those people and growing the food.
		And all those jobs are coming back to the farm instead of being in...
		In whatever costly remedial programs they are.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So you are essentially a standalone system, whereas when you're seeing a factory farm, there's a lot of stuff you're not seeing that's required to make that thing run.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly right.
		Now, we do buy grain for our omnivores, but we buy local GMO-free grain, no genetically modified organisms.
		And yes...
		The whole idea is to create a carbon centricity so that we're not shipping this stuff all over the place.
		And when people say, oh, but a locality can't produce it.
		Cornell did a fascinating study several years ago of New York.
		They took every metropolitan city, Ithaca, Syracuse, Buffalo, Albany, New York City, and they took all the cities of New York and said, Could we produce the calories for these urban sectors?
		How much land would it take?
		And what they found was that every urban sector could produce all of its calories within 30 miles.
		So even in New York, it could be stand-alone self-sufficient, except for New York City, which if they went into New Jersey, it became self-sufficient as well, because New York's right on the edge of the state.
		And so a fundamentally integrated system rather than a segregated system becomes far more efficient.
		In the scheme of things, it becomes far more efficient than a segregated system with all this long-distance transportation.
		Because the ships are passing in the night.
		That's what's happening.
		Iowa produces all this food.
		Iowa only eats.
		Only 5% of the food that's eaten in Iowa is grown in Iowa.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		And Iowa is the most fertile piece of land in the planet.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Why?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Because they're They're not producing food.
		There's nothing to eat there.
		If you want to eat berries and apples and things, that has to be imported from somewhere else because the whole state's in corn and soybeans.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		This genetically modified thing is a real hot topic.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		It is.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Genetically modified seems to me to be along the same lines of this factory farming idea.
		Instead of looking at it in a comprehensive approach, what you're doing is saying, well, we've got a problem.
		Let's attack that problem with chemicals.
		Yeah.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yes, well, it's fundamentally bridging.
		It's fundamentally overrunning a lot of natural barriers that are there in place to protect happening what is happening, which is a mishmash of genetic material.
		So you have a salmon that's partly a pepper plant, partly a tropical herb, and partly Pig!
		Okay?
		And you talk about...
		You mentioned allergies a little bit in the past.
		When we were kids, I didn't know anybody with a food allergy.
		We didn't even know the phrase.
		I never even heard the phrase.
		Okay?
		And now it's ubiquitous.
		What's happening is that we're getting all of this frankenfood.
		It's...
		Our internal bacteria, we've got three trillion beings in our insides, and they're not capable of mutating and assimilating material as fast as our human brains can adulterate the food system.
		And so what happens is we're sending down there a bunch of foreign material.
		What's this?
		I can just see them talking.
		Let's have a board meeting here to see what that GMO corn is.
		And so what happens is they can't assimilate it.
		And so the other thing about GMOs is that it is hard to contain.
		By nature, it's promiscuous.
		So what you have here is a new life form.
		I mean, the only thing that people have been able to do before now is a donkey on a horse.
		It makes a mule.
		But a mule is sterile.
		It's almost like God says, alright, you can do that, donkey on horse, but that's it.
		You're not going to go any more than that.
		This is not Mendel's peas.
		Mendel was peas on peas.
		He wasn't peas on tomatoes on pigs on monkeys.
		It was within species.
		And so this is an assault on the sexual plumbing that nature has to maintain genetic purity.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And it seems like the DDT issue hasn't been factored in as far as the long-term effects.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		Yeah.
		The feeding trials, all the feeding trials have only been like, you know, 60 days.
		Well, 60 days is...
		Not only that, but probably the world expert on this is Jeffrey Smith, who wrote Seeds of Deception and is the premier world GMO expert.
		He points out that when Monsanto was doing feeding trials for FDA on, for example, GMO potatoes, they chose for the feeding trial geriatric rats.
		Well, geriatric rats are already completely formed.
		You're not going to see any big changes in those.
		In Scotland, when the scientists there duplicated those studies with juvenile rats...
		Same feeding trials, same potatoes, same everything.
		All sorts of problems developed.
		Cognitive ability, brain fog, they couldn't go through a maze, organ development, kidney malfunction, fertility problems.
		I mean, you name it, I had all these problems.
		So, you know, one of the problems with science is that it's very subjective.
		You can set up an experiment within your paradigm.
		Teddy Roosevelt used to say, it's really hard to get a guy to see something when his paycheck depends on seeing something else.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's a good way of putting it too.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		And I think that's exactly what's happened here, that you can set up experiments and constrict the parameters, whether it's length of time, type of subject, you name it.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		But you can set up the parameters of the experiment To skew the results, to not get a comprehensive, eclectic view.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Like the geriatric rats.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Like the geriatric rats.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that seems like dirty pool.
		That's a bad thing that they did.
		And they're doing this just for profit.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		I mean, there's a lot of money on the line.
		A lot of money on the line.
		And...
		So where are we going to go from here?
		How do we go from here?
		And so when you ask, well, what could you do?
		All right, we know this system's bad.
		How do we really move over here?
		And there are several answers.
		I mean, one is go underground.
		Just start buying the good stuff.
		Guerrilla-type marketing.
		But I think the main one is...
		What we need is a food emancipation proclamation.
		We need a food emancipation proclamation to free the food system from the enslavement of bureaucratic orthodoxy.
		So that consenting adults, and I'm choosing my words very carefully here, so that consenting adults could make a voluntary choice of food choice, the type that they want, From the source that they want.
		And if we allowed however many in our society, 5%, 10%, 20%, whoever wanted to opt out of government-sanctioned orthodoxy and say, hmm, is there something better out here?
		Can I choose something different?
		If anybody who wanted to opt out Of the current industrial government orthodoxy could do so.
		Voluntary consenting adults here.
		We're talking about the right of private contract.
		If I want to come to your farm voluntarily, no extortion here, voluntarily, look around, smell around, ask around, and I want what you're producing...
		I should be able to get it.
		When the government gets between my lips and my throat, I call that an invasion of privacy.
		And yes, I do also believe that we should legalize all drugs.
		All of them.
		Because a government that can tell you you can't smoke dope can also tell you you can't drink raw milk or refuse to vaccinate your children or go down the line.
		The fact is...
		That the orthodoxy is so convoluted now that it's perfectly safe and fine to feed your kids Coca-Cola, Mountain Dew, Count Chocula, Cheerios, and Pop-Tarts, but not homemade charcuterie, pickles, raw milk, And backyard butchered chickens.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Isn't that crazy?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		It's absolutely crazy.
		And if we would free up, I mean, I travel a lot, I talk to thousands and thousands of farmers.
		I just talked to 200 farmers up in San Jose this weekend, you know.
		And what's the limiting factor?
		Why is local food cheap?
		Why is our kind of food, I mean cheap, more expensive than it has to be?
		Why are we perceived as elitist?
		Why isn't it more available?
		Why is it so hard to find integrity food?
		This is the issue.
		And if we would free up those of us in the system that are ready to access our neighbors with quiche and noodles and charcuterie and, you know, name it, to free us up, it would completely invert the entire food system in a year.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The entire food system as you speak of like when you're talking about the genetically modified organisms and you're talking about these companies that provide them like Monsanto there's a backlash against that now because of the information that's been released about the detrimental effects of them and you're seeing like in Brazil they won lawsuits the farmers won massive lawsuits against Monsanto and these Or various GMO products that they've created.
		Say, you're talking about Iowa and the fertility of the land in Iowa.
		What could possibly happen?
		Could all these farms that are set up to just specifically grow grains, and a lot of them grains that are specifically grown, just to feed livestock?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Or make alcohol.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Is that what it is, too?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, corn, you know, all the alcohol, corn alcohol.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's what most of the farms...
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Well, a lot of it, you know.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		All right, but go ahead.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Massive amounts of money are invested in these systems.
		What could they do?
		I mean, what could be done to change all that?
		Could those farms be sort of turned around and brought to more of a comprehensive approach to farming like you're prescribing?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		What did delivery stables do when the automobile came?
		That's what we're talking about here.
		Think about that transition.
		Think about the horse-drawn hackneys when the electric streetcar came.
		I mean, that's the level of change here.
		You're talking about massive societal change.
		There will be some losers.
		But you know what?
		Those guys have been making fun of me and calling me a bioterrorist and a lunatic and a, you know, a backwash.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You're a bioterrorist?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, because our chickens, you know, commune with red-winged blackbirds and indigo buntings out in the field.
		And then those wild birds take our diseases to the science-based, environmentally controlled, you know, factory chicken houses and threaten the planet's food supply.
		All because we were so archaic and Neanderthal that we had our chickens running around in the pasture.
		around in the pasture.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Has that really been argued?
		Has that really been argued?
		Absolutely.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You've really had that?
		You've really had that, wow, that's hilarious.
		Wow.
		Absolutely.
		That's hilarious.
		You barbarian, you let your chickens run loose.
		You barbarian, you let your chickens run loose.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		Absolutely.
		In fact, I had two federal veterinarians when the last time we had an avian flu outbreak in Virginia back about 12 years ago.
		In fact, I had two federal veterinarians when the last time we had an avian flu outbreak in Virginia back about 12 years ago.
		And they, by the way, they exterminated, landfilled 1,000 tractor trailer loads of poultry, 1,000 tractor trailer loads of poultry within just about a five-county area of me.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		All right.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Did they then in turn feed that poultry back to other chickens after they killed it?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		No, no, that was not because that was avian flu.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		So they actually landfilled or incinerated.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Burned it up.
		But see, under our system, you don't have any of that stuff.
		So, I mean, a thousand tractor trailer loads is a lot of food, alright?
		Anyway, I had two vets there that were part of the extermination federal tax force.
		Both of them said that we are considered...
		I mean, they came to visit because they'd read about us.
		You know, we're here.
		You know, they came from Oklahoma or whatever.
		We'll go see this place.
		And both of them said that we are considered a typhoid Mary, right?
		In the community.
		Because, you know, we don't vaccinate, we don't medicate, and we don't, you know, we don't do all the orthodoxy that the industry says you're supposed to do.
		That's the orthodoxy.
		And if you don't adhere to that, and of course then that orthodoxy drives insurance.
		How does a farmer sell his product?
		How does he get product liability insurance?
		The insurance company says, well, we won't underwrite you unless you use best agricultural practices.
		Well, the insurance company doesn't know anything about agriculture.
		Where are they going to find out about what's best agricultural practices?
		They ring up the land-grant university, which is the lackey of the industry, and they say, well, you need this protocol of vaccinations, this protocol of medications, this protocol of chlorine, this protocol of fuming.
		And if the farm doesn't do that, it's high-risk.
		It's a high-risk farm.
		You better not do it.
		And so right now, a lot of farmers like us are unable to get Insurance, because the underwriters won't insure risky farming, which goes against the orthodoxy of the system.
		Because the insurance executives play golf with the industrial ag executives, play golf with the bureaucracy executives.
		It's all a big fraternity.
		It's not a conspiracy.
		It's a fraternity of ideas.
		And they've all drunk the Kool-Aid.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That is madness.
		And it's incredibly frustrating because you're so transparent about your process and the benefits of your process.
		When you're sitting out there in one of the videos that I watched, you're sitting out there with these pigs These pigs are just hanging out.
		They come up to you like the pig got under your arm and you put your arm on him.
		It's like, hey, what's up?
		They're just rooting around.
		Anybody that wouldn't see the benefits of that, you have to be either, you have to have a financial vested interest in not seeing it, or you have to be insane.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you have to be insane.
		The best compliment I ever got was a young chef.
		A young chef came out.
		He wanted to see the farm.
		He was starting to buy our stuff and really liked it.
		He wanted to come out and see the pigs, so I took him up to the pigs.
		He says, you know, he was a young guy.
		He said, I have never...
		I've never seen a live pig.
		He cuts them up and cooks them all the time, but he'd never been physically present with a live pig.
		And he just got really quiet.
		I just let him enjoy it for a little while, and the pigs were gnawing on his shoestrings and just there.
		And he finally said, you know, I don't know anything about raising pigs, but I think if I was a pig, this is the way I'd want to live.
		And I said, that's right.
		It resonates in our soul.
		I mean, if you have a conscience at all, it resonates in your conscience.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, here's your pigs up here on the screen.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I mean, these pigs are just chilling.
unidentified		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They're having a great time.
		They're not stuck in some disgusting pen where they're lumped in.
		I mean, there was a story recently of a farmer who they believe fell.
		They believe he may have had a heart attack.
		He's an older gentleman.
		Fell into a...
		A pen and was killed by the pigs.
		And everybody's like, oh, pigs are vicious.
		It's the conditions that are vicious.
		These pigs aren't going to kill anybody.
		These pigs come right up to you and nuzzle with you, man.
		I've seen it.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		They will kill you if you quit moving.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		They're omnivores, you know.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Oh yeah, if you're dead.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		If you're dead.
		I tell kindergartners that want to go in and pet them, I said, absolutely, you're welcome to go in and pet them.
		Just keep wiggling.
		Just keep wiggling.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's hilarious.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		They'll eat your toes first and your fingers, and in an hour they'll be to your spleen, you know, so keep moving.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		They are omnivores.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and they are survivors.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		They are.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		They're very cool.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's one of the interesting things about pigs is this huge problem with feral, what we call feral hogs, because they're not a native species to North America, and they don't really have any natural predators.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I mean other than you know coyotes which have sort of taken them on and mountain lions and all the other animals that we have in North America but The number one invasive species problem we have as far as, like, big animals is pigs.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Well, there again, there again, the problem, it's a political problem.
		It's not an ecological problem.
		You know, in Europe they have feral pigs too, but it's not a problem.
		You know why?
		Because you can go out and shoot a pig and sell it to a restaurant.
		You can sell it to a neighbor.
		They allow, you know, wild shot animals, deer and pigs, To go into commerce.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I think the worry about that though is from a sportsman's point of view that you're going to have people out there sniping and poaching deer and all the really precious wild animals and selling them to restaurants and there won't be any there for hunters.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		The thing is nature has a way of balancing it out and when there's an overpopulation they're easy to get and then once they get harder to get Then people get discouraged from hunting because they're too hard to get.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I would be more in support of that for pigs than the other animals simply because pigs breed all year round.
		They'll have several litters a year of many, whereas a deer will have one fawn.
		You know, and they'll have a fawn or two, and they'll have them once a year.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, maybe you could control it with licenses.
		Just give people, you know, you can harvest so many a year or whatever.
		I mean, there's a lot of ways to skin the cat.
		The bottom line I'm getting to, though, is that when you prohibit a food source from entering commerce, you automatically have the government...
		Manipulating a supply and demand situation.
		And that's the reality.
		And so, you know, the people that are concerned about, and you go down to some areas, I mean, yeah, the wild pig problem is a real, it's a real land abuse problem.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, they're having them in suburban San Jose.
		San Jose, people are having their lawns chewed up.
		There was a big news story about it the other day where they showed these pigs running across people's lawns in this normal suburban street.
		They're chewing up their lawns.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		They're resourceful and they're smart.
		Pigs are the smartest.
		Supposedly one of the smartest animals there is, and they are.
		They're really smart.
		So if we would allow people to actually practice consenting adult voluntary commerce on some of these things, it would then incentivize innovation, entrepreneurship and the antidote to all of the depressing things we've talked about.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Mm-hmm.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		And our side then would rise, and the other side would have to adapt.
		They'd either have to – I mean, there's talk, for example, right now among the poultry industry of trying to go antibiotic-free in 10 years.
		And in order to do it, they're going to have to greatly drop the bird size in their houses And I know that there's a lot of research going into building these living compost bedding situations in these houses.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Even in the poultry industry?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yes, in the poultry industry, yeah.
		I mean, you know, Denmark...
		Denmark made the change.
		They outlawed factory pork houses years ago.
		They've been fine.
		They've gone to deep bedded houses, completely different situation.
		And it makes a completely different living environment.
		So, you know, you can...
		You can make those changes.
		They're not insurmountable.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And those changes, though, still are not where you're at.
		Oh, no.
		You've got these animals moving around in this giant farm, and you move your electric fences from place to place.
		What's the method?
		How do you get the animals to move?
		You have them in one area for a day?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		A day, yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		How big is the area that you fence in?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, let's take cows.
		I mean, we've gone as tight as 400 head on two acres for a day.
		I mean, that's pretty tight.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's pretty tight.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		An acre is a football field, just for people trying to visualize what's an acre.
		It's roughly a football field.
		So, you know, imagine 400 cows on two acres.
		I mean, that's pretty dense, all right?
		Yeah.
		But the beauty is that when you move them all the time like this, they get very docile.
		I mean, you know, their root...
		They're routine.
		And you incentivize it because every day at 4 o'clock when you go out and call them, they're going to a new salad bar.
		If every day at 4 o'clock a certain call meant there's a bowl of ice cream for you, you'd get pretty used to that call as well.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And is that what you do?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You call them?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we call them.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		We don't herd them.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		We call them.
		What's the call?
		Do you have a noise you make?
unidentified		Oh, I can't wait!
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And so they hear that and they know it's a little dinner bell.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's like a dinner bell.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		And they just come right on.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		So then you set up this new...
		You put the stakes down.
		You set up this new area.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		The fence is totally portable.
		So you're essentially...
		I mean, envision a field like a ladder.
		And the permanent...
		The edges of the field are the stringers of the ladder.
		And the portable fences are the rungs.
		So the permanents are there all the time, and we simply move the rungs, you know, contract or expand the rungs based on how much grass there is, how many there are in the herd, that sort of thing.
		So it's a very artistic, you know, there's a science, but there's also an art to it.
		As we essentially give them one plateful a day.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And you alternate animals in these areas.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so the cows go through first, then the egg mobiles come in after them.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So after the cows are there, then you push the chicken house in there, you fence that in as well.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		No, that's not fenced.
		Those chickens can run anywhere they want to.
		They just hang around the Eggmobile because that's where feed and water and nest boxes are.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So you don't have to fence them.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		You don't have to fence them.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		They go out up to 200 yards and scavenge and scratch out cow patties.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And when it starts getting dark, they come back in.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		And when it starts getting dark, they go back in for security.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's how we have it in our yard.
		We leave the door open at night.
		And then at night, we shut the door.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		They know that chickens are...
		You're chickened?
		Scared, right?
		I mean, we use the word slang, you know, you're chickened, you're scared.
		And so their instinct is to get somewhere secure for the night.
		They don't want to just sit out on the ground at night.
		So your coop or the Eggmobile, that's a secure place, and they naturally are drawn to that as dark starts to go down.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So for them, you don't have to worry about that.
		You just move this giant structure that you've created, which is very innovative.
		Is this your design, the structure?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		See if you can pull up the Eggmobile because it's pretty interesting.
		See if you can find the video of it.
		It was in one of those polyface, that's what you call it, polyface farm?
		Mm-hmm.
		It was one of those videos.
		Right.
		Is your design, you just figured out how to stack them in there in this sort of way?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Well, essentially, it's a chicken house on wheels, is what it is.
		And so, you know, where you would normally make a chicken house, for example, yeah, there you go, where you normally make a chicken house stationary, this is simply mounted on wheels, on an axle, like a trailer.
		And you just hooked up to it with a tractor.
		And the chickens are all inside.
		And you can move it up the public road or to the far side of the field or whatever.
		And there's the guard dog.
		The guard dog's with him as well.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And the guard dog keeps coyotes away.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		He keeps coyotes and hawks and things like drumsticks for dinner.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		He keeps those away.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		We lost a chicken.
		We don't know what happened.
		I'm pretty sure it was a hawk.
		Something just scooped one up.
		It just vanished.
		No feathers, no nothing.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		They do.
		That's for sure.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Wow, you got a lot of chickens, man.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		Yeah, that's a lot of chickens.
		That's a thousand chickens.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Now, are those egg-laying chickens?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Those are egg-layers.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And you have different chickens that are egg-laying chickens and different chickens that are meat chickens.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		It's like dairy and beef.
		Dairy cows make a lot of milk.
		Beef cows grow bulkier.
		Same with chickens.
		Layers, they're genetically selected.
		Those breeds, they lay eggs, and they have a physique more like Kobe Bryant.
		And the meat chickens have a physique more like Emmett Smith.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Okay, great.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		If you're going to eat it, you want an Emmett Smith.
unidentified		Right.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		If you want it to lay an egg, you want a Kobe Bryant.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
unidentified		Kobe Bryant, you egg layer.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		He's called Kobe Bryant an egg layer.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So it's essentially just the breed of chicken itself.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Yeah, that's right.
		That's right.
		I mean, hogs, some sheep are known especially for their wool.
		Like the Merinos, you know, they're known for their wool.
		Others are known more for their meat.
		Pigs, some pigs are known for their fat.
		They were called lard hogs.
		Back in the day, we ate lard, you know, and so they would get real fat.
		Other pigs are known for the length of their loin.
		Others for their maternal instincts, you know, big, big litters.
		So, yeah, all these breeds have different characteristics.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Do you only have hens or do you have roosters as well?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		We have roosters as well.
		The eggs are not all fertile.
		We don't have enough roosters to fertilize all of them.
		But we do have enough roosters so that kids can watch them crow.
		I've had a lot of people say that are transcendentalists or...
		That if we actually come back as a different being, they really want to come back as a rooster at Polyphase.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Why?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Well, because they've got about 200 hens per rooster.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It seems like you'd get outrun.
		They would just start running you.
		They would tell you what to do.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they can get henpecked.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, henpecked.
		That's the other term.
		Chickens being scared and henpecked.
		Those are both real.
		And henpecks do peck, man.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, they do.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		There's some wild pigs in San Jose.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		You see this?
		Oh, wow.
		Look at that.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		He's getting food right there.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
		I mean, they have a real problem now.
		It's just started to make its way up there.
		A lot of people don't associate California with wild pigs.
		What I was getting at was, do you breed your own chickens?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		We have just started.
		We've just started.
		We haven't in the past.
		We've always gotten them from a hatchery.
		But what we've seen, you'd find this fascinating, I'm sure.
		What we've seen is, in my lifetime, and I'm not that old, but I have watched the genetic viability of animals, of domestic livestock, drop.
		Because of the props, the crutches that we use, antibiotics, hot feed, candy bar, I call it candy bar diets, and unnatural feeding regimens.
		And so we have really seen the strength, just the viability of these farm animals plummet.
		So our son, Daniel, when he was eight, started with rabbits.
		These are meat rabbits, not pet rabbits, but they're meat rabbits.
		Some friends had a couple does and a buck, and they couldn't take them to a new apartment where they were moving, so they said, you know, would you like these rabbits?
		Well, he was eight years old is about the time to start an entrepreneur business, you know?
		And so he said, I mean, I started with chickens when I was 10, so I was two years late, but he started with rabbits when he was 8. And so he said, yeah, I'll tell you, I wanted to raise some rabbits.
		He did that.
		And if you read any rabbit-rearing book, it'll say, never give them grass.
		Don't give them that because they'll get diarrhea and die.
		And of course, that's exactly what we found.
		But what he did, he did what's called line breeding, which is kind of a wild breeding.
		And it took him five years to work through a lot of mortality and culling.
		But in five years, the rabbit started really getting strong, vibrant, big litters, healthy.
		Now, 24 years later, they're almost bulletproof.
		And what we've seen in the genetic selection process over that time of not using any crutches and just letting it be kind of a Darwinian selection process has made us now want to...
		We want to duplicate that with our other animals.
		And so we started last year with our chickens taking our oldest, what we call survivor genetics, the oldest hens that are still laying, mating them to the roosters.
		And what we want to do is just keep taking the oldest hens, mating them to the roosters, So we eventually create a survivor genetic.
		In other words, that's the chicken that knew to hide when the hawk came.
		That's the chicken that knew to get under shelter when the rain came.
		That's the chicken that didn't get flu, that didn't get bug, that didn't have a prolapse the first egg she did.
		I mean, I call it survivor genetics.
		We're doing that now with our cows.
		We're selecting our own bulls.
		And breeding from our own bulls.
		And we're very excited about what this kind of wild line breeding type of thing can do if you knock out all the crutches.
		The problem is that it puts you crossways of the animal welfare crowd because they can't abide the idea that if I have a sick animal, I'm just going to let it die.
		Oh, you know, I mean, they've been bambi-ited and thumper-ited to death to where, you know, every dog and cat has to have a monogrammed L.L. Bean cushion in an air-conditioned ante-room.
		And that's the only way to care for animals.
		And the problem is that we don't, we're not going to get genetic strength if we don't let nature cull out the weaklings.
		That's the problem.
		You know, and so we wouldn't have the vibrant rabbits that Daniel has if we had started at the beginning, oh, let's prop these up with antibiotics so the weak ones can survive.
		If everybody walks into the room wearing crutches, You don't know who can stand on their own two feet.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Right.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		It's only when you start knocking crutches out that you find out who can stand.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It's that anthropomorphizing of animals.
		Yes, absolutely.
		We wouldn't do that with people, of course.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		No, we wouldn't do it with people.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But these are animals, and this is the natural world, and this is why animals survive.
		And if you don't do that, they won't survive.
		Then you will have the weak ones breed, and they'll develop all sorts of huge issues.
		Which could be argued, essentially, that that's happening with people, but people have a lot of other things to offer.
		Our innovation, our creativity, and our ability to communicate, and our thinking are what makes us uniquely human.
		The animals, it's simply their body, their life, their existence, and the way they interact with nature.
		When you tamper with that, you're essentially pretending you're smarter than nature itself, and that's ridiculous.
		We can show real clearly by what you've said today about factory farming, about the development of these diseases, that we're not smarter than nature.
		We don't.
		No one could know everything.
		There's not one person that's smart enough to be able to see the whole big picture.
		We need a lot of other eyes on this.
		We need a lot of other thoughts on this.
		When you start applying the same sort of compassion and That we rightly do to human beings, you start applying them to animals, you actually wind up screwing the animals over.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and you create artificial fragility.
		Sir Albert Howard, who, of course, developed the scientific aerobic composting process, which his book is still kind of the icon of the whole sustainable agriculture community.
		It was written in 1943, an agricultural testament.
		He says in there that when you use artificial manures in the soil, and that's what he called chemical fertilizers, artificial manures, it grows artificial plants, which make artificial animals Which then make artificial people who can only stay alive using artificials.
		That was in 1943. Wow.
		Wasn't that prescient?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that guy was on the ball.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That was when it was just coming out.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I mean, how long had factory farming even been around then?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		20 years?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it wasn't.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		We were just, I mean, that was 1943. We were just really beginning to start using chemical fertilizers at that point.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Now, when they have the issue with large-scale agriculture, when they chew up all the minerals in the ground and they have to add minerals when they go over the topsoil of American farmlands, I mean, there was a paper that was written about it, I can't remember the year, but it was a long time ago, I believe it was in the 1940s, about the mineral deficiencies of topsoil.
		What do they do about that now?
		And does that same issue still happen in a farm like yours?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, absolutely.
		I mean, mineral deficiency is a major problem in nature.
		Fortunately, nature has a mechanism to remedy it.
		Amazingly, it's on site.
		It doesn't need a bunch of stuff brought in.
		And the way nature remedies it is with an active decomposition cycle.
		The way it works is when organic matter decomposes in the soil, It gives off, it exudes carbon dioxide.
		When things rot, they give off carbon dioxide.
		And so that carbon dioxide, as it percolates up through the pores in the soil, the aggregates in the soil, if you look at the soil in an electron microscope, it really looks like a marsh.
		There's all these little You know, cavities and aggregates and moisture and all these, you know, slogging, weird-looking, you know, bugs and cow-looking things and, you know, predators and herbivores.
		There are more living beings in a double handful of healthy soil than there are people on the face of the earth.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Whoa!
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		That's how alive it is.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Whoa!
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's crazy.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		It eases up through the aggregates in this kind of marshy soil.
		It encounters H2O, water, in those aggregates.
		And when the CO2 hits H2O, it makes carbonic acid.
		Now, carbonic acid, if we said this is a rock right here...
		And we want to find out how much zinc, cobalt, molybdenum, aluminum, whatever, is in this rock.
		We could treat it with lots of reagents.
		We could use sulfuric acid, hydrochloric acid.
		We could use lots of different acids.
		Guess which one is the most efficient acid to use?
		Carbonic acid.
		So nature, you know, so creation has this wonderful ability.
		If there is carbon decomposing in the soil and moisture, that creates a carbonic acid to break out the minerals that are in the parent rock material in the soil.
		If I went outside the studio here and picked up a rock and brought it in and said...
		Is that rock, does it contain the same minerals?
		I mean, is it the same thing as it was 2,000 years ago?
		You'd say yes.
		I mean, that's the rock.
		I mean, there's not a big hole through it.
		Yeah, that's the way it was.
		And so we have plenty of parent mineral out here.
		The problem is we don't have an active decomposition cycle.
		How do you destroy a decomposition cycle?
		You do it when you don't have a carbon-centric system.
		And everything about modern farming is trying to get rid of carbon.
		This is one of the things that we're looking at, maybe if you've read the book, Wheat Belly.
		What about gluten and those sorts of things is that it used to be when our grandpappies were planting wheat, wheat would grow six feet tall.
		It was real, real tall.
		So that the grain to stem ratio was whatever it was, you know, the ratio.
		Well, the taller the wheat, the taller the stalk, the less weight it can hold out there.
		You know, it wants to fall over, you know, because the skyscraper gets taller and taller, right?
		And so in genetic breeding and selection, what we've done in the last 50 years is selected shorter and shorter and shorter and shorter cultivars down to where it's a very short stem.
		And that ratio has fundamentally changed, which also affects the enzymes and the nutrient components of those seed heads.
		But we can combine it faster and we can grow a bigger head on a smaller plant.
		But guess what we also did?
		We also deprived the soil of the carbon that the straw and the stalk would produce from a given amount of grain.
		That deprived the soil of the carbon injection that was supposed to come when we took the grain head off.
		And now we don't have that carbon decomposition cycle.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And so the solution to that in the industrial way is to just pour bags.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
		Add minerals.
		You know, mine minerals somewhere else and add them.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But all that can be done in-house.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely, it can all be done in-house.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The wheat issue is a big one with Americans today.
		Everyone wants to be gluten-free, and I'm guilty of it, too.
		I stopped eating gluten recently, and I found that almost immediately, I felt less...
		Bloated after a meal, if that's a good term, less sedated after a meal.
		I didn't feel so tired.
		And when I started reading about it, I read that when wheat had been changed, to change the size of it, to make it more hearty, it also became more difficult to digest.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yes, absolutely.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Is it possible to get that old wheat back?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		There are people doing it right now.
		I mean, Washington State, the old Red Rife heritage varieties, absolutely.
		They're available.
		You can buy them.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So how do you get bread that's made out of that?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Well, you can have your own flour mill if you want to buy it by the bag.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That sounds like a pain in the ass.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, that's where modern times are really exciting because we now have techno-glitzy gadgets in our kitchens.
		When people ask me, you know, what's the most important thing a person can do to advance the integrity food movement?
		My first answer is, get in your kitchen.
		And I'm not talking about hoop skirts, hearth cooking, washboards, you know, barefoot pregnant in the kitchen.
		I'm talking about embracing techno-glitzy gadgetry that we have today.
		The kitchens we have today are not grandma's kitchens.
		You know, I mean, we've got two faucets with running water.
		You know, one's hot, one's cold.
		I mean, we've got ovens, we've got refrigeration, we've got stainless steel, we've got Cuisinart's, we've got blenders and cool little, you know...
		You know, mills and flour mills and stuff.
		And so, you know, when we buy 25 pounds a week of flour at a time, and you can absolutely get it as bulk, and you can use this gadgetry and grind it up and bake your own bread in a computerized bread maker.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Grandma never had it so well.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		It's never been easier to actually eat well than today, ever.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's interesting.
		That's so true.
		Well, if you have the money, right?
		That's the big knock on organic food.
		You know, most people don't have the money to go to Whole Foods or Air One.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Let me address the money.
		The way to address the money is to eat whole foods, not processed foods.
		Mm-hmm.
		I'm sure you're familiar with the movie Food, Inc.
		And of course, it's a powerful movie, very profound.
		But there's a real weakness in that movie where that family that goes to Burger King and they buy a Whopper or whatever they get and they buy, it looks like a 200-ounce soft drink, but whatever it is, it's a big one.
		And french fries.
		And then they say they can't afford to buy produce, vegetables.
		The fact is, that meal, I don't eat at Burger King, but anyway, they're all the same.
		That meal costs no more than two whole pounds of our polyface, grass-fattened, grass-finished, world-class ground beef.
		And there's more nutrition in half a pound of my ground beef than there is in that entire meal, fast food meal.
		So when somebody says they can't afford it, The first thing I do is I want to grab them and say, okay, let's go to your house.
		And here's what we're not going to find.
		We're not going to find any fast food boxes or fast food receipts.
		We're not going to find soda, alcohol, tobacco, coffee, widescreen TVs.
		We're not going to find $100 designer jeans with holes already in the knees.
		We're not going to find, you know, Netflix, People Magazine, you know, name your thing.
		I mean, you know...
		Lottery tickets, that's a big one.
		You show me the house that doesn't have any of those things, and then let's talk about price.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Talk about what you actually can't afford.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Talk about what you can't afford.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		What are your actual priorities?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Because my position is we choose even 95% of poor people still have most of those things.
		We choose what we're willing to buy.
		You can buy wheat by the bushel.
		You can make $800 worth of bread from a $6 bushel of wheat.
		What it means is you have to participate in the food system.
		Our problem is not that it's not available or we can't get it or we don't know what to do.
		Our problem is that we want convenience.
		We don't want to have to think.
		We don't want to have to plan ahead.
		We don't want to plan menus.
		We want just convenient spontaneity.
		And you cannot have an integrity economic sector of anything.
		Automobiles, food, clothes, entertainment.
		You cannot have an integrity economic sector of anything that When you so profoundly abdicate personal participation in that economic sector.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But it is more expensive when you go to a supermarket and you buy organic vegetables.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		Yeah, it is.
		It is.
unidentified		But they're better.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And some folks feel like they are better.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Are they better scientifically?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Let me say this.
		I don't want to get crossways of everything out there.
		In my view, we should just not eat from the supermarket.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Don't eat from a supermarket.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		No.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Where do you get your food?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		You get it from a farmer's market.
		You get it from a community-supported agriculture, a food-buying club, a metropolitan food club.
		You go to farms, buy bulk.
		I mean, the way to deal with the price is buy it unprocessed and buy volume.
		Which means that you have to recreate your domestic larder.
		You know, we don't even use that word anymore.
		Larder?
		Who's ever heard of that word?
		But that's where all the food was 80 years ago.
		If I came to L.A. and said, where's the food in L.A.? It's not in a warehouse.
		It would be in individual larders in houses.
		And so when you buy in bulk and you buy unprocessed and you put your sweat equity into the Preparing, processing, preserving, and packaging.
		Then you can actually save money over the processed counterpart.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's incredible.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		In other words, you can get top of the line, local, the best stuff in the world that's cheaper than the processed stuff in the supermarket.
		I went to the green markets in New York City, arguably the most expensive farmer's market in the country.
		I asked my hostess, I said, would you do something for me?
		Could you take me to the vendor with the most expensive potato in America?
		Oh, I know exactly who we need to go to.
		She went down the stalls there, and there was a vendor there that had about 20 varieties of potatoes.
		They were beautiful.
		They had them in little box cubbies, you know, in this beautiful wooden slanted display.
		There were red ones and yellow ones and green ones and blue ones and all this.
		So I looked through the boxes, and I found the most expensive one.
		It was a little heirloom Peruvian blue fingerling potato for $2 a pound.
		That's expensive for a potato.
		But you know where most potatoes, how most potatoes were being sold in New York City?
		Four dollars a pound as potato chips.
		We've got Cuisinart's, we've got Slicers, Dicers, and Fry Babies.
		You can get the most expensive potato in America.
		And it's half the price of potato chips.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But potato chips is not food.
		I mean, it is, but it's not.
		I mean, it's a snack and people buy it for convenience.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		If you get a real honest-to-goodness potato and slice it yourself and fry it in lard and a fry baby, that is food.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		It is food, but what I'm saying is most people when they get it, they get it as a snack and they don't have the time.
		When someone buys a bag of chips, they're not going to go to the store and get a potato and slice it.
		In this modern world that we live in, I'm saying.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		I know, in this modern world.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So we should essentially go direct to farmers and go to farmers markets whenever possible and you save a ton of money.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Save a ton of money.
		Mother Earth News, this issue actually has...
		A big spreadsheet where they did exactly that.
		They have a whole bunch of items that they bought at the supermarket, at the farmer's market, and I guess CSAs or something.
		Anyway, it is profound the savings going direct to farmers can create.
		It's amazing.
		And buying volume and...
		And taking the middle man out of it.
		That's the thing.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Is it possible with your methods and the way that you're describing farming and what you've done with your farm, is it possible to feed this entire country that way?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no question.
		Not only is it possible, it's actually the only regenerative way to do it.
		Because when you break apart the feed from the animal from the manure...
		And we can even include people in that as well.
		When you break all those that are supposed to be synergistic blessings, when you break them apart, the whole thing floats on a counterfeit.
		Cheap energy, cheap oil, and...
		And a fragile house of cards that depends on clever pharmaceuticals staying one mutation ahead of the mutating bugs to function.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So the argument against what you're prescribing and describing is that what you have is...
		Sort of a beautiful, small business model for creating a very ethical farm and raising animals in a very nice way.
		But it's impractical when you're talking about feeding a nation of 300 million people.
		But you're saying that Not just the fact that you factor in when you farm your way the lack of sort of invisible costs that you get with factory farming, the lack of all the other factors that you have to bring in like chemicals and antibiotics and all these different things that are just unnecessary completely, but the actual volume of food.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		The actual volume of food, absolutely.
		The actual volume of food is more in symbiotic places.
		Let me...
		And our kind of farming with portable infrastructure allows you to use nooks and crannies that currently aren't being used.
		Let me give you an example.
		Let's take pigs as an example.
		We run pigs in the woods, and they eat acorns and bugs and weeds and things like that through the woods.
		And they actually eat the bugs that would attack the trees in the woods, so the trees are healthier.
		The fact is that we have millions and millions of acres of unused land.
		There's not one reason for a single confinement hog facility in the entire country.
		If we used our national forests, our Bureau of Land Management, Pinyon pine in Colorado, if we used mesquite in Texas, you know, Appalachian hardwoods in the Mid-Atlantic and South.
		Every place has millions of acres where these pigs could be run.
		And you simply vacate the houses.
		So the truth is we are not beginning to leverage.
		We're not beginning to leverage the resource base that we have.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So what you're talking about is the resources that are untouched.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So the factory farm system that we have, the amount of food that they produce, in order to produce that same amount of food, we would have to use more land.
		We would have to use more areas that we're not using now.
		We would have to...
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but it would be good land use.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		It's not harmful land use.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I understand, but that land is most likely either owned by the state, national wildlife...
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a problem too.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah.
		And then the other problem would be, where would the profit be?
		Who would profit then?
		If you're talking about national forests, and you're talking about a private company that grows agriculture or grows farm animals in these natural forests, who would be able to decide who gets to use their animals in this...
		Right.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Well, when Governor Tim Kaine came to visit our farm toward the end of his gubernatorial time in Virginia, he really got it.
		I mean, we went, did all this, saw all this, and he totally bought into it.
		He said, so, you know, what...
		What can I do?
		What's the next step?
		I said, well, Governor, let's have a meeting next week at the Governor's Mansion and iron out a lease arrangement where Polyface can run pigs in the state forests and keep all the trees from dying.
		And, of course, you know, he smiled.
		He knew cerebrally that I was exactly right because the Appalachian hardwood forests are dying.
		And they're dying due to lack of disturbance.
		Lack of disturbance in their ecosystem.
		We don't have the buffalo.
		We don't have the fires anymore.
		So they're dying due to lack of disturbance.
		So we can absolutely bring those forests back to vibrancy.
		Right now they're just sterile.
		They're just sitting there.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So they could be disturbed by these pigs.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		And so his understanding of ecology...
		Absolutely mandated that he get his head around this idea.
		But, of course, he grinned and laughed, and we both realized, I mean, can you imagine what the radical environmental groups would do if you said we're going to start leasing some of the state parks so people can grow pigs in them?
		I mean, it would be...
		Well, I mean, it's unspeakable.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's just forget about their arguments against environmental groups or PETA or anybody who might have an argument against it.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		If you had a clean slate and if it was your job, you could design the whole agricultural system of this country to feed America based on your principles.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Easy.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		No question.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But we would have to use a lot of the land that's currently state land or national forests.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Do you know that right now the U.S. has 700 registered Dead zones.
		Riparian dead zones.
		One is the size of New Jersey and the Gulf of Mexico.
		Those dead zones are collateral.
		They are now inhospitable to life.
		That's the definition of a dead zone.
		They were once productive areas.
		Fisheries and amphibians.
		Productive areas that are now inhospitable to life.
		They are a direct result of overrunning our nest's ability to handle our mechanistic creativity.
		And so the fact is that in North Carolina, which leads the state in hog production, if you didn't have a hurricane every two years to flush all the manure lagoons out to the ocean, North Carolina would now be buried in hog manure.
		That's the truth.
		And so fortunately, fortunately, you know, we get a hurricane every couple of years to flush North Carolina like a big toilet so it doesn't, you know, choke on its own waste.
		Wow.
		So, you know, so the idea of whose land are we using here?
		Let's talk to the displaced shrimp fishermen in the Gulf of Mexico and talk about displacement.
		Let's talk about land use.
		Are you with me?
		When we start talking about the whole land use issue, our system actually...
		Would eliminate all of this dead zone, all of this inhospitable, the desertification, all the collateral damage.
		We would actually have far more productive land than we do today because we're toxifying a very small part and that toxic stream is killing people A bunch of other land.
		Why don't we just be honest and say, let's use it all in a healing fashion And we won't have any dead zones, and it'll all be progressively healing.
		That sounds like a better alternative to me.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So the only way to have these healthy environments, these healthy growing environments, is to have sort of a symbiotic relationship with all the various different types of animals and the various different types of plants.
		Is it possible to have acres and acres of things like corn and wheat?
		I mean, can you grow a thousand, you know, acres of corn in a healthy way without having animals in that environment?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Probably the short answer is no, but...
		But that doesn't mean you can't grow grain.
		In Australia, Colin Cease there, who has vented a term called pasture cropping, has developed infrastructure and protocols for where you grow grain in perennial pasture without much tillage.
		So you don't till the blanket.
		You don't till the vegetative blanket Of the soil.
		Instead, you use livestock as a pruder to prepare and even temporarily weaken the perennial grass, plant right into it the annuals, you know, barley, wheat, rye, whatever, and it grows, beats out the grass.
		The grass stays subordinated in the shadow so that when the grain dries down, you harvest the grain and you've already got a nice You know, regrowth of green material underneath without ever actually destroying the sod.
		And there are now 2,000 farmers in Australia doing this.
		It's jumping now to the U.S. It's a real hot technology.
		And it works.
		So, you know, there are a lot of pieces to this.
		First of all, if you quit feeding herbivores grain...
		You tremendously reduce the amount of grain that has to be produced.
		Then you go to perennials.
		Nature thrives on perennials.
		So a productive regenerative food system should be concentrated on perennials, not annuals.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So describe to people that don't know what the difference between those are.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Well, a perennial is a plant you don't have to plant every year.
		An annual is a plant you have to plant annually, okay, every year.
		So grains, squash plants, you know, your garden vegetables, those are annuals.
		Blackberries are perennials.
		You plant them once, trees are perennials.
		Vines, bushes, grasses, those are all perennials.
		And so, that is the basis of nature's ecology, is perennials, not annuals.
		Realize that our ag policy in the United States is to subsidize not perennials, but annuals.
		Six of them.
		You know, wheat, corn, soybeans, cotton, sugar, and rice.
		All of those are annuals.
		So, our official...
		Ag incentivization is to incentivize the very thing that destroys soil.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		That's hilarious.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And it's also hilarious that we insist on feeding animals grains just to get them fatter.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Right.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And that fat being an unhealthy fat, I'm amazed every time I go to a nice restaurant and they try to offer me that Kobe beef stuff.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I'm like, will you get away from me with that sick cow?
		That thing is sick.
		Oh, it's wonderfully marbled.
		No, that thing's dying.
		Yeah.
unidentified		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The thing's barely alive when you shoot it.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
		The liver's probably swollen up.
		So the point is that if we quit feeding herbivores grain, we would grow way less.
		Then if we take the omnivores, the pigs and the chickens, and integrate them as salvagers, like, listen, if every kitchen had enough chickens to eat its kitchen scraps, I mean, you know, like get rid of the pet dog and put in two chickens, right?
		Okay.
		If every kitchen had enough chickens to eat the kitchen scraps, there would not be an egg industry in the U.S.
		Not one.
		This was the role of chickens.
		What we do instead is we send our kitchen waste down the disposal or out in the garbage.
		It goes to the landfill and the whole ecosystem is deprived of the biomass that's supposed to compost or digest and feed the next cycle of life.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		The problem is it's really tough to keep two chickens in an apartment.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		They don't take any more room than an aquarium or a gerbil.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Two chickens?
		Yeah.
		Well, they've got to run the whole idea.
		They have to wander around and pack grass.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		They don't need a lot of room.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		I mean, if you had them three feet by two feet, it would be fine for two chickens.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Really?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		But what about foraging and all that good stuff that keeps them healthy?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Just build your box, your container, so that they can get to about 12 inches of compost underneath them.
		You just throw your scraps in there, and then the compost feeds your little pot garden.
		I mean, well, whatever kind of pot garden you have.
		You know, container gardens?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		You mean containers.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Containers, yeah.
		But I'm happy with pot gardens, too.
		I mean, take that whichever way you want to do it.
		All right?
		Anyway, that becomes your fertilizer for your house.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		And what you do then is you turn your house, instead of an ecological liability, your house becomes an integrated part of the Well, it seems that in that sense that giant cities like New York where people are stacked on top of each other, they essentially are factory farming humans.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
		That's right, they are.
		But there are a lot of these cool ways now that we can do that.
		Anyway, if you take the pig and the chicken and you use them as their salvage operation, then you cut even more grain So you take off the herbivore grain, you take off the chicken grain and the pig grain, suddenly you don't have much grain use.
		And when you don't need very much grain, you don't have to plow very much, you don't have to plow very much, then you can go back to a perennially based system and you can go back to the historic rotations where several years of perennials built the fertility for the one or two years of annual extraction.
		Okay?
		Now you're on to a regenerating and actual healing soil building system.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		So what you're prescribing or describing, in fact, is the way that our culture should have been engineered in the first place.
		But...
		A lot of what we have here is sort of the momentum of the past that we have to deal with.
		The momentum of this factory farm establishment that was set up, that's been providing us with food for decades upon decades, almost a century now.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and you have to understand, in context, don't be too hard on the ancestors, because what happened was it got easier to grow grain and feed it.
		That came earlier than electric fence and scientific composting systems.
		So it was the electric fence that allowed us to suddenly...
		Free these animals from supposedly efficient confinement programs and grain feeding programs.
		George Washington at Mount Vernon, he always complained about the pigs.
		He was a very meticulous record keeper.
		And he always complained about the pigs because he could never get them all in at once.
		Because he just ran through the woods, and they had their babies, and you kind of, well, it's hog killing time, it's fall, let's get what we can, and they could never get them all.
		So he never really knew, for a meticulous record keeper, this was a nightmare, right?
		He never could count all of his stock.
		But that's the way pigs were used.
		Pigs were just kind of, they were salvagers.
		They were kind of nook and cranny operators.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		They weren't fenced in.
unidentified		Yeah.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		No, they weren't fenced in because there was no fence that would keep them in.
		How in the world can you ever fence a pig in with a physical structure?
		I mean, this is before metal wire.
		You know, the only fence they had were like ricks of, you know, you've seen them around museums and stuff, little, you know, chestnut rail fences.
unidentified		Mm-hmm.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Well, a pig would tear that apart in a hurry.
		So what they did, they farmed, they had an agriculture that was primarily exclusionary rather than inclusionary.
		So instead of having, I mean, Thomas Jefferson wrote about this at Monticello in his farm book.
		He had several slave boys that their job was to keep the livestock out of the gardens.
		So the idea was that the livestock basically ran free, maybe with a herder or something.
		or there were some fields, but not that many.
		And then what you did is you protected your garden.
		You protected your berries and your really high-value stuff.
		You protected that physically or with a fence or some sort of a barricade.
		Because you simply couldn't afford to fence all the animals and control them.
		So it became a lot easier to grow animals faster with grain than it did with controlled grazing because you couldn't control the grazing.
		So now the technology of electric fencing and composting has enabled us to bring the perennial pasture-based model onto a par with the grain model.
		And the beauty of that is that the pasture-based non-tillage model is a soil-building engine as opposed to tillage, which is a soil-destroying engine.
		And so all of this, you know, all this has to be viewed in context.
		You have to appreciate—I tell people, you know, don't crucify Grandpa.
		He was trying to do what he did, but there's no excuse today for continuing Grandpa's situation because we don't have— We've got things that Grandpa would have given his eye teeth to have today.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think as we were saying before, we're on the momentum of this past that was set up that also probably couldn't possibly have anticipated the amount of population growth that we have today.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		That's very possible.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		When you look at our future as a country and feeding us, do you have hope?
		Do you think that people are coming around?
		People are certainly more aware where their food comes from now than ever before.
		Do you see changes on the horizon?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		I sure do, and I'm a pretty incorrigible optimist overall.
		I don't think though that the changes will be gentle.
		You have to understand, if what I've described in this program became normal, it would completely invert the power, position, prestige, and profit of the entire food and farming industry.
		That's a big ship to turn around.
		And they're not going to go gently into the night.
		And so that's why we're seeing the backlash of the SWAT teams coming in, raiding people's freezers, private food clubs.
		We're seeing an increasing backlash.
		The Food Safety Modernization Act proposed...
		You basically couldn't use compost to fertilize vegetables.
		We can't have animals and produce on the same farm.
		We're going to outlaw outdoor flocks of 3,000 chickens or more.
		There's a huge pushback from that orthodoxy.
		Generally, if you study collapse or guns and germs or 1493 or whatever, what you find is that major societal change generally doesn't happen.
		People don't just wake up and say, I think I want a different society.
		It usually follows some major thing.
		The transition from draft power to automobile was incredibly disturbing in America.
		Let me give you one more little story.
		I spoke last week.
		I'm getting ready to go to the Netherlands and do a week of seminars in the Netherlands.
		I spoke to one of their top ag journalists this week.
		Did an interview by phone, and he said that the previous week he had just interviewed the CEO of Syngenta, which is the European counterpart of Armand Santo.
		And several years ago, they adopted a plan, a target that they would increase productivity in grains, the grains that they were working on, by 20% by 2020. 20% by 2020 has a nice ring to it.
		Well, there's several years into that plan, he said for the last 15 years, it's been totally flat.
		Nothing we can do, nothing we can invent, nothing we can do has been able to change grain production at all for the last 15 years.
		What we're seeing...
		It's what Joel Arthur Barker said when he wrote the book Paradigms 40 years ago and introduced the word to the world.
		He said, one of the axioms of paradigms is that just when they appear to have achieved perfection, they're on the brink of collapse.
		And the industrial food system has promised disease-free, famine-free, you know...
		Paradise.
		And now with GMOs and there are a lot of people that are really pumped up on their hubris who have bought into this notion that we're going to go into some paradise nirvana only to find out Oops, GMOs are causing spontaneous abortions and infertility.
		Oops...
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Is that true?
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I mean, where has that been established?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Don Huber, I mean, have him on your show.
		Don Huber, he's a professor and emeritus from Purdue University.
		And he's showing the direct relationship between, or have Jeffrey Smith on, but the direct relationship between glyphosate, which is Roundup, which is the...
		Which is the herbicide that's now doubled in use since GMOs came out.
		That was the number one thing.
		And there are...
		Absolutely.
		In the last year...
		See, we're in our 15th year with GMOs.
		Remember, it took 14 years to establish the DDT relationship with infertile frogs and eggs that wouldn't hatch.
		We're now 15 years.
		Last year, there were something like 74 studies around the world impugning not only the claims, but showing harmful side effects, collateral damage of GMOs.
		The idea that GMOs are actually more productive is pretty much universally debunked now.
		They simply have not shown a productivity increase.
		And so what I'm getting at is that the industry has continued to peg the future on this thing and present this kind of argument, this face that all is well done. this face that all is well done.
		Man, we're getting ready to perfect everything.
		It's going to be...
		You know, it's going to be a new day in the morning, right?
		And suddenly, we see all these studies.
		We see these direct causal links, collateral damage.
		We see, you know, one in four pigs right now in the industry, you know, is dying from a viral...
		We see these things.
		We see, you know, listeria, campylobacter, salmonella, E. coli...
		All these new Latin squiggly words, you know, food pathogens, autism on the increase.
		My take is that we are just about ready for nature to say, you know, you have taken enough shortcuts, now I'm going to bat.
		And it follows Barker's idea that all paradigms at the point of perfection are on the brink of collapse.
		When they're presented as perfect that's when they're on the brink of collapse.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I hope people are listening to you.
		I know people on the podcast are listening to you, but I hope people out there in the world of agriculture are listening to you.
		I know there's a lot of blowback against you, but I hope people are taking into consideration all these things you're saying because there's so much logic to your words and there's so much wisdom and so much research done that it's just...
		It's a very puzzling situation for someone like me who knows very little about it other than talking to you and reading and watching documentaries.
		It's a very strange time.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		It is indeed.
		And that's why I encourage people to take their recreation entertainment budget of time and money and start to participate in the food system.
		Go visit a couple of farmers.
		Every single community is surrounded by really integrity farmers now.
		They're everywhere.
		They're everywhere.
		There is not a community in the country that is devoid of really high quality integrity food.
		Many of them are wanting to farm full-time, and they need like 10 more customers or 20 more customers to tip them over so they don't have to commute to town with their town job to support their farm addiction.
		I implore urban people, you know, go to one less movie.
		Go to one less...
		Whatever.
		Opera.
		Whatever.
		But invest in this integrity food idea.
		And you will hear farmers say the same things I'm saying.
		And you'll be able to see it with your eyes.
		You'll be able to taste, see, touch.
		You will sensually connect with your ecological umbilical.
		And that's a good place to be.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		I love the term integrity food, too.
		It really is a great term.
		I love that you throw that around.
		And I think what you're offering as far as advice is fantastic.
		Encourage people to go to these farmers markets, connect to these people that are growing food in this way.
		I think people are most certainly more aware now than ever of where their food is coming from.
		The term organic, I mean, never even heard that a couple of decades ago when it comes to food.
		It just didn't exist.
		Nobody talked about it.
		Nobody talked about GMOs.
		Nobody talked about anything.
		The 14 plus years that we have had GMOs.
		Have been this massive series of debates and denials.
		But I think people are more aware of it than ever before.
		And I think a lot of it is because of people like you.
		So thank you very much.
		And thanks for coming on here.
		It was a really interesting conversation.
		I really, really enjoyed it.
		And I really appreciate all of your knowledge and the fact that you...
		Express it with so much passion.
		It was really fun.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		It's been a privilege to be with you.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Please.
		It's been an honor.
		Joel Salatin, please follow him on Twitter, ladies and gentlemen.
		He is the author of Give Your Books Out.
		What are the names of your books?
joel salatin ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's nine of them right now, but the ones that people need to know about would be The Folks, This Ain't Normal.
		As well as the sheer ecstasy of being a lunatic farmer.
		Perhaps my favorite is Everything I Want to Do is Illegal.
		Holy Cows and Hog Heaven.
		You Can Farm.
		The Entrepreneur's Guide to Start and Succeed in Your Farming Enterprise.
		The latest one is Fields of Farmers.
		Mentoring, interning, partnering, and germinating.
		Tomorrow's Farmers.
		So...
		Yeah, there's good stuff there.
joe rogan ▲ ● ▼		Beautiful.
		Joel Salatin, ladies and gentlemen.
		J-O-E-L-S-A-L-A-T-I-N on Twitter.
		Thank you very much, sir.
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		Thursday night, I will be at the Fillmore at the Jackie Gleason Theater with Tony Hinchcliffe in Miami Beach.
		Miami Beach?
		It's Miami.
		Somewhere in Miami.
		Miami, Florida?
		I don't know exactly where it is, but...
		JoeRogan.net.
		Go there.
		Find all the dates.
		And I'll see you guys soon.

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