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Aug. 4, 2025 - Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
51:37
Parenting, Social Media, Bullies: Answer the Call Ep. 1
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Time Text
You got bullied, right?
You talked all the time.
Everybody gets bullied.
But some people are bullied more than others.
My son Anthony is overweight.
His friends used to tease him and ridiculed him.
Our eight year old son has been called fat by a few friends.
How can we as parents encourage a healthy lifestyle knowing when or if to focus on weight?
The situation that you're both facing at the moment is not optimal by any stretch of the imagination.
My husband and I are parents to two young adult ladies.
When we're asked for guidance about dating, we feel like the generation gap right now is more like a generation chasm.
How can parents raise children to value heue depth in an age dominated by short form content?
Well, there's an insanely difficult question.
During answer the call, I take questions from people just like you from around the world about their problems, opportunities, challenges, or if they simply need advice.
My daughter, Mikaela, guides the conversations as we hopefully help people navigate their lives.
All right, fire away.
All right.
Over the next hour, we're going to hit on two topics, bullying and technology, which often go hand in hand.
So the first guy we have is John in Arizona.
Hey, John.
Good afternoon, Dr. Peterson.
I'm John.
I'm in Northern Arizona.
And thank you for having us today.
It's my pleasure.
I'm very interested to hear your question.
Yes, my son, Anthony, is overweight and he's approaching morbid obesity.
This all started when we lived in Utah.
As he gained more and more weight, his friends used to tease him and ridicule him.
It was pretty horrible.
He took the rejection very hard.
So my question is, how do you repair this?
kind of damage?
He's 21, approaching 22, stays in his room most of the time lost in video games and that kind of technology.
And it's kind of like living with a heroin addict.
I get as sick as he does, trying to steer him and control him.
And I just feel lost as a parent.
And I don't know how to heal him.
I don't know how to heal me.
I don't know how to heal us.
So.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, the first thing I feel compelled to say is that, and this isn't exactly the psychological issue is that, you know, my family, my daughter in particular, Michaela, has battled with health problems, very serious health problems her whole life.
And one of the things that we've discovered that's very strange and odd, but that has been verified now by thousands of people is that a carnivore diet will strip weight off people so fast that it's absolutely beyond comprehension.
And so I would feel remiss in my obligations if I didn't lay that out as a potential practical solution.
you know, that's a long-term issue.
I guess what I would say more on the forgetting about diet, on the practical side, although there are obviously health concerns as well as social concerns that are relevant here, I would say what is it that you...
Like we know that the situation that you're both facing at the moment is not optimal by any stretch of the imagination.
You guys need a joint plan that you agree on what would be better.
And I like people, human beings by their nature are visionary creatures.
We lay out a structure that we wish to make real in the future and we move towards that.
Otherwise, we're the puppets of our surrounding or the victims of forces that are beyond our control.
Vision is the alternative to manipulation and subjugation.
Vision is the alternative to slavery and tyranny.
Your son is not living a life that is sustainable and productive, no doubt by his own account and certainly by yours as an interested and concerned parent.
It would be helpful to help him develop a plan.
for where he wants to be in five years and for you, for him to help you understand what would be best for him from you you know because i can imagine his attitude is something like get off my back dad and leave me alone and you know fair enough he's got health problems he's got social problems he's isolated and you can understand that his attitude could well be don't bug me however
things are not going in a good direction and so your conundrum is well you have to What are you going to do?
Ignore it and let things deteriorate across time.
That's not helpful.
And so you guys are in a position where you need to develop a plan and it needs to be one that you're both on board with.
And that's going to take some very difficult discussion to convince him.
I guess I would start with questions, you know, and because questions rather than statements are a much more effective way to suggest and intervene.
But they have to be non-manipulative, you know, they have to be genuine questions.
So if your son came and saw me, I would say, like, first of all, well, How are you reacting to your current circumstances?
And then you want to listen.
It's like, well, this is problematic and this is problematic, but it's like I'm defending myself by hiding and I don't know what else to do about that.
You need to lay out the territory.
And then you have to ask, well, if this could be rectified, what would a rectification look like?
You know, do you want friends?
Do you want an intimate relationship?
How are you going to pursue your future goals?
Do you have any future goals?
What do you see as a solution to this?
How as a father, you could ask him as well.
How do you want me to conduct myself when I see that you're ensconced in a world of misery in a manner that's going to make the future worse than the present?
present.
If I love you, I can't ignore that, but I don't want to torture you to death and add to your misery.
So what do you what do you want from me?
Given your understanding as well that I can't just stand by and watch you go to hell in a hand basket.
And so can I?
Yes, you can.
Please do.
This one.
That sucks.
Yeah.
So first of all, yeah.
And I think a lot of chronically ill, I think every chronically ill person, including people suffering with obesity, are blamed for health problems.
That's like number one.
Not only are you sick, but it's your fault.
Yeah.
And then they're left in this position where they don't know the solution and that's not, that's not fun at all.
Yeah.
So like what I would say, like my husband lost 300 pounds doing the carnivore diet.
It's not a joke.
It's not a fad diet.
It's a real, like, keto diet.
No, it's just a fashion.
You're a staggering, good looking person now.
It's quite remarkable.
Yeah.
And it's not you don't have to starve yourself.
I would probably, if I was them, try to get on board with trying the diet as a family.
Yeah.
We're on your side.
This isn't your fault.
Yeah.
American foods are hyper palatable.
Everyone eats carbs.
Some people have harder time stopping eating them than other people and we don't even know why.
Right, absolutely.
So first of all, it's too bad you were bullied.
Yeah.
And second of all, it's not your fault.
But third of all, you can do something about it.
Yeah.
And let's just all try it as a family for like a couple of months.
He's probably depressed.
Oh, undoubtedly.
It's not just, it's not the video games that are the problem.
I would say it's the physical ailments and probably depression and brain fog that are drawing him towards video games.
Right, that's a very important additional concern because the fact of his obesity is a reflection of an inability to manage a high carbohydrate, high sugar diet.
Which a lot of people have.
Well, right.
And it's clearly the case that many forms of depression are inflammatory and are brought about by exactly that kind of diet.
I like the family approach idea.
Right.
We're on your team.
Yes.
right.
I should also say, you know, it took me a long time to eradicate all quick judgment from my observations of people that were obese because it's very easy to judge.
And I've become completely convinced that the best way of thinking about it is that it's a situation-induced illness.
Oh, yeah.
It's like we're wired genetically to gorge on high carbohydrates, high sugar foods because in our ancestral environment they were rare.
And so when you came across honey, you just ate all of it because maybe you're not going to find any for the next five years.
They also set up scientists to manufacture foods so that people couldn't stop eating them.
Right.
So they would be.
So they're built like that.
So no wonder you can't stop eating them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I don't think, you know, you need to go on a diet or you need to change the way you eat.
It puts the blame on the person and it doesn't even give them a plan.
Well, and diets don't work because a diet is food restriction and the evidence is quite clear if you restrict.
and then stop restricting because you can't maintain that forever.
You gain back the weight you lost and more.
Oh no, it's terrible.
Yeah, it's not good.
And the advantage of this carnivore diet approach or keto approach is that you can eat as much as you want.
You can be satiated.
Yeah, I also can't tell you, like, I had juvenile reumatoid artritis from the age of two.
And I didn't have, I didn't have obesity issues.
I gained weight when I went away to college because then I started eating pizza and beer and delicious, terrible foods.
And it really impacted my mental health, but I can't explain how much this diet has changed my life.
I was on something like eight medications for psychological health and then immunsuppressants, antibiotics, sleeping medications so I could sleep, painkillers for artritis, I was a complete mess.
The other thing that's helpful too is like your kid isn't very old, he's 21.
That's I turned around my health when I was 23.
I needed to get older and smarter, and I actually needed to get old enough to recognize that my health issues were going to kill me.
I don't think I reached that that point, and it was obvious.
I didn't reach that point until I was 23, but I know a lot of younger people who have done the carnivore diet.
Like my husband started a keto diet when he was 17 and that's when he lost 300 pounds.
Like he did it on the keto diet.
But the carnivore diet is like, it's easier, you don't get cravings, it's hard to transition to, but once you're on it, you don't even want those other foods.
And I think he'll start dropping weight so fast that he'll be like, okay, wow, yeah, let's keep doing this.
Yeah.
Okay.
Next question?
Yeah.
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That's a hopeful one.
Yeah.
It's sad, but it's hopeful.
Yeah.
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Fun, Joe.
Pretty bad.
Yep.
you you you Up next we have Victoria in Louisiana.
Hello Victoria.
Hi.
Thank you so much for taking my call.
So this is my question.
Our eight year old son is kind, loving, and socially observant.
He is also very sensitive, especially in regards to his appearance and his performance.
He is taller and heavier than his siblings and most peers, and has been called fat by a few friends.
How can we as parents encourage a healthy lifestyle, knowing when or if to focus on weight without creating an eating disorder or hyper fixation on his outward appearance?
Well, I guess some of the discussion that we already had is relevant with regards to stabilization of diet is that moving your family's eating pattern to a lower carbohydrate load would be useful.
And, you know, your comment with the last questioner was that this has to be a family affair.
And I believe that's the case because eating is a communal activity.
And you don't want to isolate a kid.
And just cutting processed foods can make a big difference.
If you just focus on a lot of meat, fruit and vegetables.
try to get rid of the grains and processed foods, that'll probably help them out.
And I wouldn't say, like, again, that it's his fault.
We're kind of set up in society right now to eat hyperpalatable foods and most people if weight gain doesn't hit them young it hits them eventually well nobody assumes it unless they have a low carb well we also know that there are radical individual differences in the degree to which people pack on weight so for example Pacific Islanders Island people are have gone through periods of food deprivation their cultures very radically in their evolutionary history.
And so Island people tend to pack on weight like mad.
And so the Polynesians, for example, on a North American diet, they just balloon out no time flat.
And so there is wide individual variability in the proclivity to gain weight.
And it's very important.
I really do think it's crucial to stop making it a question of lack of willpower or morality.
First of all, you can't fight your hunger.
Good luck with that.
Your hunger will win.
So if you're on a diet and you're not satiated, you're going to cheat or when you stop the diet, you'll return to your old eating habits.
You have to change the way you eat.
And that's very difficult and it's very radical, but it's incredibly useful.
And then I would also say, he's sensitive about his appearance, more sensitive than normal.
That's the other issue.
Maybe he's got some anxious.
It's possible.
That might be a good thing.
It might be.
It might be a good thing.
It might be a consequence of some higher levels of negative emotion as well.
And so what would I do with someone who's more sensitive than...
Sorry.
He's eight.
He's eight, yeah.
I guess I would, Right.
Something jokey.
Yeah, something jokey, but at least to expose yourself to it.
Like if someone calls you fat, at least I have a brain.
Right, right.
What should your response be?
Your son needs help developing strategies for dealing with the most common bullying situations and phrases.
And you'll have to get from him what people say that hurts his feelings and then you'll have to work with him to develop strategies of verbal response or attitude that help him prevail in the face of that.
Now, what you don't want him to do is to get down on himself, to isolate, to be irritable, to cry or lash out, because that'll just amplify the bullying, like what bullies do.
Like, first of all, we should understand that every child gets bullied on the basis of their peculiarities.
And so if you don't have any obvious aberration in your appearance, well, the bullies will just make one up.
They'll give you a nickname that's derisive or they'll come up with something that's like a rhyme on your name.
Like they're going to find something and what they're looking for is an emotional reaction.
In the bully victim literature, you see that there are stable bullies and there are stable bully victims.
And the stable bully victim boys tend to respond emotionally when they're picked on.
If they can develop a defensive strategy, say, which and humor can be very useful in that regard.
Or just pretending you aren't bothered.
Yeah, well, better even than pretending is to practice not being bothered to the point where you're actually not bothered.
Because what the bully wants is a reaction.
And he'll go around poking at people until he finds someone that reacts.
And then that's the person that gets picked on.
So your son needs to be trained in resilience.
And, you know, one of the things you might even try with him is to make a list.
list of the insults and the insults that have been used against him and the insults that he's afraid of and practice delivering them to him so that he can learn to be resilient in their presence.
Oof.
Yeah.
You can do that.
You can do that with his cooperation though.
Yeah.
What are you going to do if someone calls you fat?
What should you do?
Do you want to get upset?
Like, how does that how does that work for you if you get upset?
Does that help?
Well, they hurt my feelings.
It's like, well, pretend they don't is a good place to start.
Practice, practice acting as if they don't.
That's so, see, because the pretending, there's an element of deception in there.
There can be an element of self deception in there.
It's hard to, when you like, it's hard to, I don't, didn't you get bullied, right?
You talked all the time.
Everybody gets bullied.
Everybody, everybody gets bullied.
But some people get bullied more than others.
Yes.
They're not usually the ones that show weakness, honestly.
They're the ones who respond emotionally.
Yeah.
And so practicing stoicism in the face of provocation is a useful strategy.
And you could help your child learn to do that.
Yeah.
You, when, this is a funny story.
Yeah.
Kindergarten, I think, you told us, go find the biggest kid in the class and punch him.
And he said this, weren't you in front of other parents?
Oh, yeah.
They were shocked.
Oh, I said, I think, I see.
said i think i think you find the biggest ugliest kid in the in the classroom and then hit him on the back of the head with a toy oh wow that's way more in depth and specific it was a joke obviously we didn't do that no i know you didn't do that but yeah in grade two this girl came out of the bathroom i remember i was standing against the wall leaning against the wall and kicked me yeah just random grade two girl yeah and i turned around and i kicked her back as hard as i could yeah That was it.
Yeah.
That was the interaction.
And she was the bully, right?
It was like, kick.
Yeah.
Kick harder.
Yeah.
It was like, oh, okay.
Not going to kick you anymore.
Right.
You'll kick somebody else.
Right.
Well, there is some real utility also in helping your children learn to defend themselves and to discussing very carefully with them the conditions under which they are allowed to or also morally required to defend themselves or sometimes to defend other people.
And so you need a philosophy of that.
If someone is picking on you, if someone hits you and you're a kid, what's the right response?
Well, the people who are animating, It's like, do you remember what it's like to be a kid?
Going to tell the teacher that can be social suicide, right?
Because it indicates to the bullies in particular that you can't handle your own affairs and that you'll rat them out.
That's not good.
Although I do think pretending or actually just being unaffected by it, like I don't care what you say.
Yes.
Like that'll deter a bully.
Yes, yes.
Because they're not interested in bothering someone that's like so.
So Dan Olwius, who's a Scandinavian expert on bullying, and he he reduced the incidence of bullying in scandinavia by about 50 so he's quite and there's a book which which you could take a look at everybody who's listening called bullying what we know and what we can do about it, pretty blunt book, Olius did the best analysis of bullies.
He thought of them as prototypical fascists, which was why he was concerned with them.
And I think that that's correct.
Olius' analysis of the bully dynamic is dead on.
One of the things he also helped schools parents and children work through is the conditions under which you are allowed to seek adult authority if you're a child so his his So if there's two kids of approximately equal physical size and stature, let's say in development, and they're having an altercation.
That's not bullying.
Bullying is when there's three ten-year-olds against an eight-year-old, right?
There's clear imbalance of power.
And then if you observe that as a child, you have the moral right to intervene on behalf of the person who's being bullied with an adult, mostly because you're serving the cause of justice.
And so Obias was one of these dim-witted, like hyper-agreeable.
social worker type interveners who thinks all violence is wrong it's like that's actually not true violence in defense of yourself or of your principles or of someone weaker is often admirable and your children have to learn how to they have to learn how to think that through.
No, and you know, your response, for example, when you got kicked, what would you we say, in the ideal there'd be no violence.
It's like, well, that's not real helpful when your daughters are all out and kicking me.
Right.
Well, of course, of course you weren't.
Of course you weren't.
Yeah.
And so that stopped it.
And we, you and I and Julian as well, like I practice teaching you how to punch so that you could throw a punch.
And we discussed the times when that was necessary.
Right.
So you remember that?
I do indeed.
It hurt..
I had arthritis.
Yeah, right.
Everything hurt.
My childhood was very sad.
Every time I talk about it with my husband, he's like, it's like bowling.
Yeah, I used to bowl.
My thumb used to get stuck in the bowling ball.
He's like, why is everything you say depressing?
Like, well, it's funny now.
You're actually a remarkably happy child.
Yeah.
Well, good.
Yeah.
Partly thanks to you.
I'm sure.
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Next caller.
Next caller.
On the line now is Marilyn in Florida.
Hello, Marilyn.
Hello, thank you for taking my question.
My husband and I are parents to two young adult ladies eighteen and twenty four years old, and when we're asked for guidance about dating, we feel like the generation gap right now is more like a generation chasm.
For example, social media, how the people connect today, different sexual norms, their situations that have been brought up that we never encountered when we were in the dating life.
We're often hard pressed to offer really good advice.
I was wondering if you would have any thoughts on that.
Well, there's an insanely difficult question.
Well, this is everything I say is going to get me in trouble in this regard.
So, yeah, yeah.
So, the first thing I would say is that alcohol is a dating danger that's always underestimated in its magnitude.
It isn't unreasonable to point out that there would be zero date rape, essentially, if alcohol wasn't involved.
And so that's a good thing to know.
And then I would say as well, when you're talking to your daughters, that their right and obligation to say no should be exemplified, should be encouraged and strengthened and and here's why i believe this to be the case so women cross culturally are hypergamous it's a character deep characteristic of femininity
in among human beings.
It's not the case for all of our primate relatives, by the way.
Women mate up across and up hierarchies.
Cross-culturally, they like men that are about four years older.
And so you might ask yourself, what's the female mating strategy, human female mating strategy?
The human female mating strategy is to watch men compete with one another and peel from the top.
And it's a brilliant strategy because what women are essentially doing is thinking, well, the best man will win in competitions with other men.
And she sits back and watches and picks the guy who emerges victorious.
And that's a great strategy.
And so men compete for status in large part to attract women.
But the status that men have among men, the most viable men, marker of that status is their competence and men will grant other competent men status and then women are fortunate because they can use that as a marker for finding a competent man.
The question is, what confers status among women in the opinions of men?
And that's easy.
It's their ability to say no.
And so no is a superpower for women.
And because the typical high status guy, for example, so a desirable guy, who faces no, is either going to depart because he's interested in exploitation, in which case, good riddance,
or he's going to think, huh what's up with her you know i'm a high status guy and she says no well that indicates that she's that's her indication of status now i should also point out here's something to talk to your daughters about that's very concrete so imagine there are two mating strategies one is short term so that's free love sexual gratification um that's
the whole kind of dark hippie ethos from the 1960s.
And then there's the more, there's the mating strategy that's more oriented towards long-term committed relationships, which you might well define as marriage.
Okay, so now imagine that you do a personality assessment of the men who pursue those variables, those variant strategies.
So who are the guys that are after short term sexual gratification?
Well, we know who they are.
They're dark tetrad types.
They're Machiavellian, so they use their language to manipulate.
They're psychopathic.
They have a tilt towards psychopathy, so they're predatory parasites.
They're narcissistic, they're only concerre sadistic and so when when women participate in that easy sexual revolution let's say that's short-term pleasure focused they throw themselves into the hands of the worst men and so it's much better to play a long-term game now if your daughters are having a hard time finding someone
who wants to play along, well, then I would say they're well advised to not be unhappy that men who are irritated because they don't get what they want right now have left.
Because that is not a person you want to be around.
Yeah, for sure.
No, yeah, for sure.
For sure.
All of the all of the evidence converges on this very
uh solidly i have like just a loop in technology yeah so this is i went through this kind of thing 10 years ago so it's still kind of recent and the dating experience has changed since then but not not a ton i would say that you've told me this before and this was very helpful figure out what your kids want as a life plan.
Like this is probably more relevant for your 24-year-old because your 18-year-old is 18, but does she want to get married?
Does she want to have kids young?
Does she want to be a stay at home mom?
Does she want to work at the same time?
Figure out those those serious questions and make sure they know the answers to those questions, then they can utilize technology.
So what I found helpful is you can download a dating app.
So back in my day, it was Tinder.
Now there's hordes of them, but Tinder was I was pretty rough back then too.
But you can meet people online, generate a report to see if you get along.
Then you can say, I want to go for a coffee date.
So coffee date doesn't have the alcohol problem.
You can go for a half an hour coffee date.
You can tell right away, especially if you don't have alcohol to numb yourself, if you dislike or like the person.
And then you can get up and leave, which is totally fine.
But if you like the person, you can pretty much have the conversation about what you want in life right off the bat.
And if that scares that person away, then it's good that they're gone anyway.
So you might as well encourage them to go out and meet people.
You might have they might have to go on like twenty of these coffee days to meet someone who goes, hey, we want the same thing in life.
And then you can take it from there.
That's very, okay, there's a bunch of things about that that are very important.
So talk to your daughters precisely, as you said, about what they want.
Yeah, you talk about that.
Yeah, yeah.
Make a list of what you want.
Precisely that.
You do that when you're shopping for a house, you know?
Yeah.
What do you want?
Okay, so now you know, well, now you have a criteria by which to judge potential partners.
They either want that or they don't.
If they don't, well, maybe they have a better offer, probably not, but maybe they do.
And if they don't, it's like, don't be upset that they leave.
You're thrilled that they leave, because the last thing you want is the wrong person.
Okay, so that's the first thing.
Talk to your daughters so they have a plan.
plan that gives them a template for acceptance and rejection.
Encourage them to reject, right?
Not arbitrarily and meanly.
And maybe even to look beyond their immediate reaction.
at things more fundamental like shared goals, right?
Because there are people you meet that you're not necessarily so attracted to immediately, but you learn to like them.
And that's because they're of good character.
So that shared vision of the future is extremely important.
Then the next thing is slow, safe situations to mutually get to know each other and certainly the initial coffee date in the daytime, somewhere public?
Yes, exactly.
And then care with each step forward.
It's another rule of thumb for women, I would say, and I also think it's true for men, but it's more desperately necessary for women.
Don't do anything physically with anyone that you wouldn't have a conversation with them about.
Right?
Because you might say, well, at what rate should we pursue intimacy?
Well, if you're pursuing physical intimacy before you can have a conversation about what you're doing, you're probably putting the cart before the horse.
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On to the next.
Next, we have a more general question about AI, and we're joined by Robert in California.
So let me ask my question.
First of all, thank you for having me here.
My question is a quick two-part.
The first part, they're both actually about LLMs like GPT and stuff like that.
I was wondering, first of all, whether you use them yourself, and if so, what you make of the experience, and if you don't, why you don't, And second of all, I was wondering what you thought the social consequences of their widespread adoption would be.
Do you think people are basically going to load a lot of their thinking to these devices, or do you think there's going to be some kind of rebellion?
Okay, the first let's answer the first part of that question.
I use LLMs all the time.
I use ChatGPT.
I use Grock, and I have a system that one of my compet compatriots built with me and for me that's based on the King James Bible and that also incorporates a bunch of the things that I've written and lectured on that I can use as a conversational partner when I'm trying to figure out what I think.
They are insanely helpful.
They're like having a research team at your fingertips.
You have to torture the woker models, ChatGPT, and Grock to some degree into telling the truth by specifying your questions very carefully and laying down rather impolite restrictions.
But you probably have to do that with people when you're trying to get the truth out of them too rather than some just polite and agreeable response.
I think they're stunningly remarkable machines and they've been ridiculously useful for me while I'm writing.
So I use them all the time.
When I'm writing, I have like three LLMs open and I'm just conferring with them all the time.
I ask them for advice on how I'm formulating paragraphs.
They're ridiculously useful.
Now, having said that, I have this program that I've worked on with my son called essay.
And we're trying to use essay to teach people to write.
And when you teach them to write, you're teaching them to think.
And when you're learning to write and think, you're learning how to move your way through the world without falling into a pit.
And if you offload that all to a LLM, then you're just a hollow shell and you have no idea who you are, where you're going, or what you want.
And that's a huge danger.
I mean, I was just talking to my son the other day about his experiences.
communicating about essay in general.
And he talked about a situation that one of his friends was involved in where they were taking a course where they were required to write essays and to give feedback to one another.
And everyone who was taking the course used ChatGPT.
to write the essays and to provide the feedback.
And so all you really got from the course was bots communicating with one another.
And so people can use the LLMs to evade their responsibility and to lie and to deceive and to look smarter than they are.
And that's just rife with catastrophe.
I would also say that the LLMs in my experience have been very useful in precise proportion to how carefully you specify the question and assess the answer.
And so they could also teach you.
to ask extremely careful and well-formulated questions and to hone your capacity for critical thinking.
Look, it depends on your intent, right?
If your intent is to rely on technology to look smarter than you are and to gain a bunch of undeserved rewards in the short term, it's going to be a complete bloody catastrophe.
If your aim is to sharpen your thinking, to learn, to interrogate, to question properly, and to make the sharpest and most well-informed arguments you possibly can, then that's open to you too.
And I don't think that's much different than most technologies.
It's like the more powerful the technology, the more you can use it for good and the more you can use it for evil.
And one of the things I've noted for and tried to teach people for 20 years is as our technological prowess increases, the consequences of our morality or immortality or immorality expand.
And that's the curse and the benefit of technology.
Now there's an additional issue that we should address too, which is the alignment problem.
How do we know that the LLMs are operating according to the proper moral principles when they're formulating their answers?
We just assume they're not.
Well, well, part of that is part of that can be dealt with by extremely careful questioning and critical thought, but This is also why we've been experimenting with our own large language models, because my guess is that we're going to have to train them on something like the Western canon for them to be aligned properly.
Like there's not much difference.
in training an LLM and educating a young person.
If you train the LLM on broad consensus across every possible source of information, you're going to tilt them towards a present focused view and something that looks quite woke.
And that's exactly the same with young people.
So what do you do about that?
Well, a classic humanities education, a classic education in the deep works of the Western tradition, provides them with a defense against.
Well, why would it be any different with the LLMs?
I want and I've talked to people who develop LLMs, although we haven't made enough headway on this front yet to train systems on classic works and to make that the core of their ethos.
And so, you know, with any luck, we'll work that out over the next five or six years.
That's what we're trying to do with Peterson Academy.
Yeah.
We've talked about this a lot.
People are probably going to be split into two camps.
There's going to be the people that know how to utilize LLMs because It's a crazy difference.
It is not Google.
Google, I thought Google was great.
Just being able to Google was like the internet.
We all have access to the internet.
That's crazy.
You can research basically whatever you want.
And Grock, I use primarily Grock, just squishes three days of research into like 15 seconds.
It's crazy.
So if people aren't using it, they need to start using it and learn how to use it because you're going to be left behind.
That's what I think.
So you need to incorporate that.
But there was this funny, I'll send it to you after.
But it was this video going around Instagram and it's this guy and he's like on his chair like a monkey going like eat eat eat, typing things into Grock or an LLM and it's spitting out a really nicely worded email.
And then he sends that and then he gets a response and he's like all happy about it and goes like eat eat eat and types it in.
Unfortunately, I feel like there's probably going to be a group of people that use it to enhance themselves and a group of people that won't learn how to write or communicate that will just use it.
Yeah.
Which is that's the dangerous thing.
Yeah.
Well, and your comments about Peterson Academy are, are, are.
are relevant with regard to classical education.
If you're going to use an LLM intelligently, you better be well informed and morally grounded properly.
But of course that's the case because the more powerful tools you have at your disposal, the more your stupidity will magnify itself in consequence of the misuse of those tools.
You know, and I've known this for years.
One of the reasons I got attracted to Carl Jung's thought was because in the aftermath of World War II and our development of the hydrogen bomb, he pointed out that the true danger that confronted humanity wasn't the bomb itself.
It was the ideological foolishness that would lead us to use it and that the development of the psyche, the development of wisdom was as your technological power increases, the requirement for you to be wise increases proportionately.
Well, that's even more the case now.
And I think the LLMs have really, they've been another tremendous example of the necessity of that moral grounding.
And that's a very you find that moral grounding in consequence of being properly educated.
And that is what we're trying to do on Peterson Academy.
Last question.
Last question.
So up last we have a recorded message from Diego in Paraguay.
Cool.
Hi, Dr. Peterson.
Thank you very much for this opportunity to ask a question that is very important to me.
How can parents raise children to value depth, purpose, and delayed gratification in an age dominated by short form content, endless distraction, and dopamine chasing media?
What practical steps can we take to protect and prepare our children so they aren't psychologically hijacked by the algorithm before they even have a sense of who they are?
So the most terrifying element of the algorithm, and you can really see this in the degeneration of YouTube, especially over the last two years, is that the algorithm maximizes for grip of attention.
And fair enough, because why wouldn't you want to be given things that you want to attend to?
But the problem comes as the maximization of grip of attention becomes shorter and shorter duration, right?
Like pathological addiction is actually the hijacking of attention by short-term considerations.
So the shorter term across which your attention span is being manipulated, the more pathological the outcome.
And you can see a race to the bottom in the social media world.
And TikTok probably really kicked.
that off you're a fan of tick tock feel like you swiped right right right 15 second bursts right and so okay so how do you fight against that well look you fight against that the same way you fight against immaturity as you socialize your children.
What you're actually doing when you socialize children is you expand the time frame over which they calculate reward, right?
So they're able to maintain attentional focus for longer and longer spans of time.
while they're doing effortful things that culminate in a delayed reward.
It's the definition of maturity.
So how do you practice that with them?
Well, you listen to them.
That's helpful.
That's why regular dinner times, mealtimes together are very useful without phones so that people communicate and you can encourage your children to attend for long periods of time by listening to them formulate their thoughts and engaging in conversation with them.
You can do the same thing by reading to them, right?
I mean, this is dependent on the individual child, but there are four-year-old kids who can listen to a story for an hour and who can handle a pretty complex juvenile novel by the time they're four.
Interact with your children in a manner that requires sustained attention for longer and longer periods of time.
And so board games can do that too, especially more complex board games.
So you want to engage as a family in sophisticated.
enterprises that don't fragment attention down to the smallest possible unit.
There's tech now too you can use.
So I have a seven year old.
She has a phone already because she's split between two houses.
Otherwise she wouldn't have a phone.
I would say delay the phone for sure.
I haven't given my kids screens before the age of three, like including movies and things, just because you can see a two year old glued to a screen and you're like, that can't be good for their brain.
So like no screens.
There's this player.
It's called a Yodo player.
And it's this little machine that little kids can operate by themselves.
And you get these cards.
They're either music or stories.
And you can stick the card in the machine.
A little graphic appears, but it's not a screen.
It's like some lights that move around a tiny bit.
It's not hyperstimulating And then they can listen to stories and things.
So just as a practical tech piece, I really like the Yodo.
And then for hyperstimulation too, we use kind of a Montessori approach.
Just it's just limited toys.
Don't overrun them with toys.
Just a couple and you can swap them out every couple of weeks so they get new toys every couple of weeks.
But I think avoiding the hyperstimulation when they're really little helps a lot.
And then delaying like you just talked to Jonathan.
Height delaying social media, delaying phones, delaying screens.
Yeah.
And Height just talked a lot about a lot about too about the fact that many states, I think he said 13 states already, maybe it's more than that, have decided to make schools phone free zones.
Good, yeah.
Brazil has done that, and many more states are planning to do it.
All the way up to grade 12, just no phones.
That's my understanding.
No phones in schools.
That's good.
It seems like the right thing to do.
The evidence for its utility is not in yet, but that constant fragmented attention.
The fundamental problem is that the AI algorithms are going to optimize for the grip of short-term attention.
And that's just, there's no difference between that and addiction.
That's just addiction by a different definition.
And so encourage your children to pursue processes, pursue activities that require the investment of attention and do that jointly.
So.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yep.
Well, thank you, Dad.
That was fun.
Thank you to everybody who asked questions.
Much.
Much appreciated.
And thanks, Mick.
Yep, it was great.
Thanks guys so much for watching or listening today.
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