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June 7, 2021 - Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

01:43:06

You're Next | Dr. Rima Azar | EP 174

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	Hello, everybody.
	We've got something a bit more topical today.
	I'm going to be speaking with Dr.
	Rima Azhar, who is Associate Professor of Health Psychology at Mount Ellison University, co-founder and co-director of NaviCare slash Swans Navi, And a former holder of a Canadian Institute of Health Research New Investigator Celery Award in Developmental Psychoneuroimmunology.
	She's co-scientific lead in the three-part leadership of the New Brunswick Strategy for Patient-Oriented Research Network, a provincial network including 120 stakeholders under the leadership of two researchers, two clinicians, and two policymakers.
	She's a former Canadian Institutes of Health Research Advisory Board member for the Institute of Human Development, Child and Youth Health at the Canadian Institutes of Health Research.
	Mount Ellison University, where Dr.
	Azar teaches, is a Canadian, primarily undergraduate liberal arts university located in Sackville, New Brunswick.
	It's been ranked the top undergrad university in Canada 21 times in the past 29 years by Maclean's Magazine, a record unmatched by any other Canadian university.
	In February of 2021, Dr.
	Azar ran into some trouble at her university because of views she expressed on her blog while commenting on news articles in the media.
	So this is part of my ongoing discussions about, or everyone's ongoing discussions about, the state of today's universities.
	Thanks very much for joining me today, Dr.
	Azar.
	Thank you for having me.
	It's unbelievable that I'm on your show.
	Well, it's too bad.
	It has to be under these circumstances.
	Yes, indeed.
	So how long have you been at Mount Ellison?
	Since 2008, so about 13 years.
	And what's it been like?
	What department are you in and what has it been like for you?
	Psychology.
	It has been amazing since day one, working with my colleagues, the students.
	My colleagues across the campus, the community, my good relationships with everyone, the administration, the students, the union.
	I've never had any problem at all until February.
	So you like Mount Ellison, you like the community, you're happy to be there?
	Absolutely.
	And what undergraduate courses do you teach?
	I teach courses at all levels, so Intro to Psychology.
	So first year, we have sections and I teach 206 students.
	Health Psychology, the second year.
	I teach a course called Perinatal Health Psychology, third year.
	And a seminar in my area, Psychoneuroimmunology or Advanced Health Psychology.
	And you've enjoyed your teaching as well as your research?
	Oh yes, absolutely.
	And what kind of research do you do?
	I do research, well, my lab is called the Psychobiology of Stress and Health Lab, and my research is, I'm interested in stress, in coping, in resilience, now currently in relation to families of children who have complex care needs.
	I work with colleagues at 2NB St.
	John.
	It's just amazing what we can do while being at Mount Elson University.
	So working in the community here, working across New Brunswick, across Canada, etc.
	And where did you do your undergraduate and graduate work?
	Undergraduate at the University of Montreal, I did something called psychoeducation, which is developmental psychology.
	It's a more clinically oriented program where we can practice.
	I did a master's in it, so I have that clinical background, but I do research, stress research, clinical research.
	And I did my PhD in developmental psychoneuroendocrinology, again, University of Montreal.
	I moved to Toronto and I did my postdoctoral fellowship at the University of Toronto, University Health Network.
	Are you originally from Montreal?
	Originally from Montreal, but originally, originally from Beirut, Lebanon.
	So I've lived 15 years in Montreal.
	I arrived when I was 17.
	And you were in Lebanon before then?
	Yes.
	And I did my CGEP college that exists in Quebec.
	I did a year of college and the university.
	So you moved to Canada with your parents or did you come out?
	Yes, at first with my parents, but then they moved back.
	So I chose to stay.
	And I always joke saying I represent the Azar family in Canada.
	So my parents are very attached to Canada.
	They are Canadians, but they live in Beirut.
	And I live here.
	Okay, so you immigrated to Canada, and you lived in Montreal, you went to school in Montreal, and then you ended up in New Brunswick, and you've been teaching there, you said, since 2008, so it's been 13 years.
	Yes.
	So, and what happened?
	You have a blog, tell us about that.
	Yes, I'm going to tell the story of how it happened, not like, of course, what is going on internally, but what is in the media that I can speak to.
	But if you allow me first, I want to say that it all started with the blog, but then there have been an invitation for complaints about the blog.
	And I want to clearly and firmly say and state that I deny those allegations that are circulating in the media against me.
	So that's clear.
	I'm someone who strongly believes in respect and human relationships.
	And I think if we have that respect towards others, self-first but towards others, it's the best antidote to racism, discrimination, mistreatment of others.
	So I'm against discriminating against anyone, including myself, of course, but against anyone.
	So that for me, I want to get it out clearly, please.
	So tell us about the blog.
	When did you start writing your blog?
	In July 2019.
	And why did you start to do that?
	I mean, you have your research career, you're an undergraduate, you're a teacher as well.
	You're working in the community, you have a full life.
	What compelled you to start a blog?
	I love to write, and I think it's a reflex that I have from war.
	So I used to write my diary in Arabic and in French, and I have them with me.
	With me in a box and went across three provinces.
	So I love to write.
	So in July 2019, I didn't have the chance maybe to say what I wanted to say on a platform.
	So I decided to have my own blog and just write for the pleasure of writing.
	I write about Lebanon maybe half of the time.
	I write about Canada, Quebec, here.
	I just write and express views in relation to what is happening in In Canada and in the world and I think I'm seeing something very worrisome and maybe that's part of why maybe I'm writing because I'm seeing that we are in times where we can't talk about things.
	Look what's happening in my story.
	People are afraid.
	They may think things when they are at home privately but they may not express them publicly or maybe because of, you know, Political correctness or whatever.
	I'm not that type of person.
	When I write, or Bambi, the name of the person writing is actually the meaning of my first name, Rima.
	It means a little deer in Arabic.
	And Bambi is that dear.
	So Bambi's afkar are Bambi's thoughts.
	So what I write is actually who I am, my own thoughts privately and on that blog.
	I sometimes write maybe personal things about birthdays of loved ones or whatever.
	It's a blog, right?
	So that's it.
	And what kind of audience does your blog have?
	Well, at first I thought it had maybe 10 people, maybe first myself, I was writing for myself, but I thought family, family members.
	And then when that story happened, for once I searched, I usually don't have the time to do that.
	And I thought it was like really getting 2,000 on one day.
	And then like, I don't know, another day I checked 500, something like that.
	I thought, oh my goodness, like I was really thinking, I'm writing, you know, I'm using during the pandemic, my in-laws or my parents sometimes with some Or writing about the Beirut explosion.
	I interviewed friends about what they are going through with the financial crisis, you know, things like that.
	Right, so it had expanded beyond the small number of people that you had assumed were reading it.
	Absolutely.
	And what were you...
	Okay, so tell me about your thoughts about people's inability to speak.
	What have you been thinking or experiencing prior to this explosion of interest in your particular case?
	What had you been sensing?
	And was that the culture at large?
	Was that at Mount Ellison?
	What had you been experiencing that was worrisome to you?
	That is at large, you know, when we hear stories about people being silenced in one way or another or when we see that people are being, I don't know if that's the term in English, but disreputable, I mean, being made into diabolising them, you know, saying words, you know, This or that, racist or that.
	Having the reputation attacked.
	Yes, exactly.
	And that is actually, ironically, a contradiction with where I come from, where we know we have a powerful group, more powerful than other groups, but Lebanon has issues.
	But people still express their opinions there, despite stories, you know, extreme stories of, you know, Killing here and there, you know.
	But I mean, they can teach freely.
	They can criticize freely.
	And I do criticize things there.
	And I have never imagined in my whole life that my problems would be from Canada and not like coming from where I come from, if you see what I mean.
	So what did you write about that caused trouble?
	And for how long?
	Tell us all about that.
	It's very hard to know precisely, but some of the things, it's public information.
	I'm not saying anything that went in emails or in social media from the university or went in the media, actually, if you read the stories of being accused of being racist, of being...
	You know, all these terms like encouraging sexual violence, etc.
	So those were the accusations against you?
	They were accusations of racism?
	They were accusations that you were promoting sexual violence?
	Yes.
	What else were you accused of?
	It seems odd to be promoting sexual violence, but I can explain why, perhaps.
	Maybe younger people think in black and white and don't see the nuances.
	And I can understand that when we are young, sometimes it's like that.
	But I try, I think I try to bring some perspective by comparing, you know, places It's worse than Canada.
	You know, Canada has issues, of course, like all the countries, but Canada is not as bad as we think.
	Had it been that bad, I would have not immigrated here.
	My family would have not, I would have not chosen to stay.
	So maybe I may have said...
	In wars, war times, or under certain radical groups, you may have rape culture.
	And by no means I meant to be saying minimizing the experience of people going through horrible things like rape and sexual.
	So that's absolutely not the case.
	But I think it's all about the blog, in all honesty.
	All what we hear in the media is not the main thing is the blog.
	It's disturbing.
	Well, and exactly what happened to you.
	So, you were living what I would presume was a pretty comfortable and happy life, as you've described, being a teacher and a researcher.
	You spun off this blog on the side.
	And then, what happened?
	One day, you were notified by the university.
	Tell us exactly the story.
	I can tell you, but I want to say yes, I'm extremely happy.
	Even in the pandemic, even despite The Beirut explosion and everything.
	I'm finding my ways of living and coping.
	New Brunswick is amazing for Canada.
	But we're also lucky to be in the semi-rural In areas where even the pandemic did not hit us as hard as Toronto or bigger places in Montreal.
	So in that sense, I was all okay until that February 22nd, where I can tell you that story because it's my story, that's my part.
	And it's in the media actually.
	I was having symptoms of actually like COVID-19.
	I wasn't sure.
	And I was very, very, very sick.
	I usually run fast and jump and go on the stairs.
	I couldn't take the stairs.
	I would stop.
	I couldn't breathe.
	And so on that day, the Monday where it happened, I went for testing.
	It was finally negative.
	But I went.
	Came back, did my work day, and then at the end of the day I was lying on the couch, thinking that I was resting.
	I got a phone call from a kind former student.
	Telling me, Dr.
	Azhar, you need to know what is happening.
	And I thought, are you okay?
	What is happening?
	He was worried.
	And he said, no, I'm fine.
	You are in trouble, in big trouble.
	So the story started in the social media.
	I'm not on social media myself.
	So for me, I chose that blog because it's what suits my personality, writing and having enough space to write.
	So anyways, I enjoy reading social media and I do, but I'm not on it.
	So I went, I read quickly and I thought, okay, it was there.
	This was on Twitter?
	This was all happening on Twitter?
	On Twitter.
	Or where was it?
	I don't know if it was happening elsewhere on Facebook, I guess, but I saw the Twitter myself.
	And then an email got out of the university publicly, so not on Twitter, on Facebook, or the public channels of the university, saying, you know, it's public, so I'm not saying what is not public.
	Trigger warning, that blog, we dissociate ourselves from it.
	And encouraging complaints.
	Okay, so what were people saying on Twitter?
	And who was it that was saying it?
	And how many of them were there?
	Do you know?
	A lot.
	It was a big thing on social media.
	And there has been also, at one point, a threat of violence on social media and things like that.
	So it was...
	Then, I don't want to forget that part, when there were three student organizations asked for my removal from my position at my university and also affiliations elsewhere like University of New Brunswick, University of Moncton, Okay, so I want to zero in on this.
	So there's some students primarily on social media, on Twitter primarily, and they're complaining about your blog.
	And they're students who are part of student organizations.
	And then the student organizations themselves, three of them, Are contacting the people that you're working for or with, suggesting that you're not the sort of person they should be associating with and asking for your removal.
	Exactly.
	You said there were lots of students doing this.
	And I'd like to get something, an estimate of something like a number.
	So does a lot mean 500 or does it mean 500?
	Hmm.
	So in between, maybe?
	I don't know precisely the answer.
	Well, the reason I'm asking is because one of the things I'm curious about is just how many people have to complain before complaints are taken with some degree of seriousness.
	Now, I've dealt with ethics boards, for example, at my own university, and they have a policy that every complaint should be investigated thoroughly.
	And I'm not very fond of that policy, particularly, because...
	There are a lot of people who cause a fair bit of trouble for absolutely no reason, and it seems to me that complaints need to pass something approximating a reasonable threshold before they're dealt with, let's say, seriously.
	And so, you know, it's striking when you're talking about this that you don't know how many people actually came after you because they came after you on social media, and it's certainly not in the hundreds.
	It's unlikely to be, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's unlikely to be in the dozens.
	Is it 10?
	Is it 15?
	And were they students who were actually in your classes?
	Or were they just people who read your blog?
	And what were they objecting to in your blog exactly?
	What did you say that was in principle?
	Or do you even know what it is that they're upset about?
	What I've read is that you made some claim that Canada wasn't systemically racist, that that wasn't the right way of looking at the country.
	And to me, that means now, is that the case now that at a university, if I stand up and say that I don't believe that the lens of systemic racism is the proper way to analyze Canada, especially compared to other countries, that now I'm so reprehensible that I deserve to be suspended?
	If a couple of people object, is that the situation that we're looking at?
	Or am I being too hard on the university?
	Well, I think it's hard to answer that question.
	I know.
	The numbers that I know of now, I know them because of what happened and how many people, but before I didn't know anything.
	I personally found it amazing that my university, my employer that I love and respect, did not call me to tell me what was happening, that I learned it in that way.
	Did your union?
	My union is doing what needs to be done and I'm very grateful, but I didn't know about that.
	That's how I knew it.
	And then after that first call, friends from Nova Scotia, Amherst, Nova Scotia, Cold hearing in the news and the radio, it was all everywhere.
	I have to admit, I may be wrong, but there may have been a flavor for that during that month.
	So like it was like my story was sort of a scapegoat for something that is much bigger than a deer, a simple deer, a silly deer.
	Sometimes we're not allowed to write serious things or silly things or be wrong or change our mind.
	So what precisely, I don't know, but I do, I personally am allergic to identity politics, given my background.
	So I may have written things about that or about, you know, it's hard to tell.
	But you're still not sure, you're still not sure what it is that, okay, so you're not sure exactly who you offended or how many of them there are, and you're not exactly sure why you offended them.
	And you're so unsure that what you say is that, as far as you're concerned, you can't safely write down what you think, despite the fact that you have your opinions, given where you came from, given the fact that you've immigrated here, that you can take a look at Canada from the perspective of an insider and an outsider.
	You're not sure what your crime is.
	No, but now because it's in the media, I can talk to that.
	I'm sad that I'm not respecting the confidentiality of the process.
	Well, you get the chance to defend yourself in any case.
	I mean, you've been suspended, correct?
	Yes.
	In the fall.
	Okay, and you said your university didn't even call you when all this blew up, which is typical in my experience of the way institutions are reacting to this sort of thing.
	So, an unnamed number of students made comments that you have used that are in some...
	I don't know.
	Of course, I saw those complaints and I can tell you, I think that part I can say is most of them are related to the blog and that's fine.
	People have the right not to like what you say, what I say, what anyone else is saying, that's fine.
	But when we get into false allegations, It's a different story.
	There's also a difference between having the right not to like what you say on your blog and aggregating behind your back and conspiring to contact all your employers and to insist that you be removed because you're reprehensible and hypothetically a danger to the, let's say, the safety of students and to have you removed from your position and have your reputation dragged through the mud and have you exposed in the media.
	I mean, that's not merely not liking what you said.
	That's an all-out attack.
	And it's amazing to me that this handful of students, an unspecified number, has the power to move the administration to produce such a dramatic response.
	And you keep...
	Wavering in some sense as to the nature of your crimes.
	You said you think it's likely the blog, but I guess there are allegations that go outside the blog as well.
	Have you ever had trouble with your students in classes that have resulted in complaints?
	Never.
	All those who know me personally who can guess who I am in the blog because I... I think it shows a little bit that, you know, I write a lot.
	So you can guess, you can see, you can make links, you can see.
	So for example, I may criticize a certain politician in one blog, but I can say thank you on another one for doing something good.
	You know, I'm writing because we cannot comment on media articles.
	Many times, you know, the comment section is closed, right?
	So for me, it's my way of doing it.
	Well, it doesn't seem to me that it's something that needs to be justified.
	I mean, first of all, you're a citizen of a free country.
	You have a right to express yourself any way that you see fit.
	Second of all, you're a tenured professor and your thoughts are actually protected to a fair degree.
	It's protected broadly so that you can think broadly.
	And the fact that this has happened despite your tenure...
	Well, I guess part of the question that people who are watching might be asking is why the hell should they care about this?
	And the reason I believe that people should care about this, first of all, is that what happens in the universities ends up happening everywhere else very, very rapidly.
	And if it can happen to someone like you, it seems to me that it can happen to anyone at any time in any place.
	And this unbelievable cowardice that our institutions show in the face of unwarranted allegations, as long as they're the right flavor, is something that should be tremendously worrisome to everyone.
	Now, your situation is also particularly peculiar, I might say, because...
	You don't seem to be the right sort of target for this sort of targeting, you know, because you're using the terminology that I don't appreciate in the least.
	I mean, you're female.
	You're an immigrant.
	You're you're, at least in principle, part of the communities that the people who push this sort of nonsense are hypothetically trying to protect.
	So why is it because you are in one of these victimized categories?
	And you dared to say something that wasn't in accordance with the necessary moral ideology that you've been targeted?
	So let's find out this.
	You came to Canada from Beirut.
	Okay, what's your experience of this country, this racist...
	Oppressive, systemically biased country.
	What's your impression of this place?
	At a prestigious university.
	I mean, I love my university.
	I did all my studies at the great university.
	I worked with great world universities.
	So I'm saying, if Canada was that racist with me, at least, because some people would say, that's your story.
	It's not the story of others.
	I'm not the only one who speaks like that.
	You lived in Montreal?
	Yes.
	For how long?
	For 15 years.
	Okay, what was it like?
	I've lived in Montreal.
	I know what Montreal is like.
	What's Montreal like as a city?
	I love it.
	Montreal is amazing because people are open-minded.
	People respect you.
	You can say what you wish.
	Quebec It's sometimes mischaracterized, sadly, but I defend Quebec.
	I don't know if there's something that bothers some people.
	So I'm not just from Beirut, Lebanese-Canadian.
	I'm Canadian, first and foremost, but Lebanese-Canadian.
	I'm Quebecer.
	I live in Quebec.
	I love Ontario.
	When I visited Vancouver and the west part of the country, I told myself, oh, why didn't my family immigrate there?
	It's fascinating.
	You know, every place is beautiful in Canada.
	And so when I come back to what may have bothered them, I think you put your finger on it.
	Maybe they wanted, if you read the about of the Bambi's blog, you see that that deer does not want to fit in any group and put in a box.
	So I'm supposed to be racialized, be a poor me.
	I don't like to be victimized personally in my life, even now with what is happening to me.
	I think I'm a dignified person.
	So in that sense, I like the term invisible minority, visible minority.
	You know, the terms that used to be used in Quebec my time when I immigrated, I see myself more in them than like us divided into this group, that group and, you know, sectorism or not like you know, sectorism or not like Canada.
	Right.
	So you're supposed to be...
	First of all, you're female, so hypothetically you're oppressed because you're female, even though the evidence for suppression of females in academia is very, very...
	It's actually...
	Females dominate over males in terms of numerical proportion in most disciplines.
	It's not the case in the STEM fields, but everywhere else it's the case, not only especially in terms of graduates produced.
	It might not be the case at the highest levels of distinction.
	In the academic hierarchy, although that's changing pretty rapidly.
	So you should actually fit into at least two oppressed categories, female and immigrant, right?
	And so the rule here is that if you're in both of those categories, victimized by the intersection between those two categories, that there's a particular political view you better have or else.
	And or else, in your case, is there else you get suspended.
	Because a few people complain.
	It's what the hell's going on with the administration?
	I don't understand what they're doing.
	I really don't understand.
	I can't understand why they didn't have the courtesy.
	Actually, I can understand why they didn't have the courtesy to call you.
	Because the sad truth is, is that as soon as a few people complain, everyone who isn't directly involved runs scared and looks for someone to sacrifice.
	Yes, I can.
	How can I say it?
	When I reply to the women part, my own sister is a journalist and defends women's rights in Beirut.
	There, you know that women have a long journey, right, for equality.
	And yet, my sister does not use terms like, you know, toward I don't know how to say it, but in a constructive way, she does what she does.
	And Bambi may have had a post actually on that.
	So that's one thing.
	The second thing is, you're right.
	There is scapegoating maybe, but there is fear.
	People are afraid.
	And I don't just...
	Well, the way to deal with fear isn't to offer someone up as a sacrificial victim and then to run hiding into the closet.
	That's not the way to deal with fear.
	All that does is feed the mob, as far as I'm concerned, because now they've managed to go after your job successfully.
	I don't understand, like, what sort of message is that sending to the students who went after you to begin with?
	What the message is, is, well, if you organize yourself into a little mob and bully like mad, then you can make major administrations kowtow to your political will, despite the fact that it massively disrupts someone innocent's life.
	Well, that's a hell of a message for an educational institution.
	Absolutely.
	And it's not just my life, my family, my small family, my larger family in Lebanon.
	Like, people are traumatized by that story.
	And there is a silent majority of students or non-students.
	Yeah, like 97%.
	Yes, who are like you, who think, what is that?
	And like me, but me, I... I'm calm.
	I take things calmly and I think, try to have to solve things and strategically and what to do, what not to do.
	So, but I see around me how much people are affected and I am, of course, affected, but I mean, I'm trying to fight.
	Who was it exactly that sent you the note signifying your suspension?
	Well, it's not a secret.
	It's two administrators, but the two Particular persons, but for me, at that stage, it's all public.
	So all what I'm saying is not that I'm saying something that I'm not supposed to be saying.
	It's all public and those names.
	Well, it also isn't clear what you're supposed to be saying and what you aren't supposed to be saying.
	I mean, you have every right to let people know what's going on.
	In fact, I think in some sense you have an obligation to let people know what's going on, right?
	Absolutely.
	Because, look, this isn't right.
	This isn't appropriate, especially given that you're protected by tenure.
	It's not appropriate anyways, but it's particularly not appropriate because you're hypothetically protected by tenure.
	And so, on what grounds were you suspended?
	I still don't understand what you did.
	Where's the evidence that you did something so reprehensible that a suspension was the appropriate response?
	Why didn't they say at minimum, well, you can continue your teaching and we'll take a look at this, but given your stellar record and your loyal service for the last 13 years, continue what you're doing and, you know, we'll take a look at this, but...
	We're on your side given your past behaviour.
	Is there anything that's lurking back there that makes you nervous about your performance?
	No, but let me tell you something.
	What happened at Mount Alison University and is happening elsewhere, but particularly here, is a symptom of what is happening in our country.
	Or maybe beyond, actually.
	So I take it like that.
	It's a symptom that we do have a serious problem, as you said, like tenured professors not being able to express ideas, debate ideas, challenge students with ideas.
	We do have a big problem.
	Well, not only ideas.
	What you claim is not only what was commonplace, is commonplace, among the vast majority of people in Canada, but was completely uncontroversial five years ago.
	It's not like you're pushing forward some radical ideas.
	To question the idea that Canada is systemically racist, let's take a look at that a little bit.
	So when you moved to Montreal...
	You're an outsider.
	You're an immigrant.
	What's your experience there?
	Did you make friends right away?
	Were you shunned?
	Were you prejudiced against in any particular way?
	What happened to you in Montreal?
	It was an amazing experience.
	Of course, sometimes you may meet someone who may say a word that may sound like being racist.
	I say, so what?
	Like, it's racist.
	Have the right to exist in a society, so-called racists like myself, have the right to exist in a community or in a society.
	So what I'm trying to say is that it is normal in a society to have people who are Truly racist or radicals, but the problem is when radicals start imposing their views instead of accepting that not everyone thinks the same.
	I consider myself as a classical liberal.
	Historically, I thought center-left, but I don't like to put words.
	So center-left, some people would say, why are you talking to Dr.
	Peterson?
	Most of the people I know would be jealous of me to be talking to you in all honesty, but some people would say, Why are you being perceived as being too You know, right, left, things.
	I don't care about sides.
	I'm going to tell you something about me and identity politics.
	When I moved to Montreal, it's full of people of the same background as me.
	So if you take a cab driver, chances are the cab driver would be either of Haitian origins or Lebanese origins.
	So sometimes when I open my mouth in French, they can guess my accent or realize we're both same backgrounds, start chatting.
	They ask me, where are you from?
	And I can see the religious symbol in the car.
	It's actually, I share that same religion, but I would answer from Beirut.
	I am from Beirut, because it's general.
	They will say, where exactly in Beirut?
	I know where they want to come to.
	And it's not because they are mean, because it's curious, it's built in them.
	They want to know which religion.
	And me, I say, oh, the green light, near the green line, sorry, green line, you know what I mean?
	Like between East and West Beirut.
	So for me, my religion is personal.
	My whatever part of identity, it's no one's business.
	So it's like, identities are complex, right?
	We have multiple, I don't know what I mean.
	But, so that is how I've always approached things.
	And now that I'm seeing that if we say, if we denounce these things in our society, we are being called racist, we are being called radicals.
	Like, it doesn't make any sense to my sense.
	So your experience when you went to Montreal was a positive one, and you enjoyed living in the city, and then you went off, you did well in CGEP, in the upper echelons of high school, and then you went off to the University of Montreal, and you were successful there.
	Did you encounter anything that you regarded as systemic racism while you were in Montreal?
	No, not in Montreal, not in Toronto, not in New Brunswick, personally.
	Of course, we know the history and history of Canada and pockets of residual...
	Things that are unfair and unjust, but I think systemic racism or whatever we want to call it or diversity or things, We have to be careful not to be saying slogans and empty slogans.
	For me, diversity, I live it.
	I live it because I allow myself to think.
	It will change my mind.
	My spouse is not of the same background as me.
	Absolutely not.
	And so that's diversity, right?
	Diversity is I tolerate.
	I think you can be of that trend of, we call it, Why not?
	As long as you don't impose on me, or if you see what I mean, or you can be even, I'm thinking of religion now, not just Muslim, but Islamist, if you're not doing something with it, if you see what I mean, to society.
	So my point is, We have the right to think whatever we wish in a democratic society, in a free society, especially in universities, as you said, the lighthouse of knowledge, of exchange of ideas.
	And if it's there, it's getting dark.
	How would it be elsewhere?
	Have you been able to face any of your accusers?
	Do you know who they are?
	Were they former students who were in your classes?
	Are they people who are hell-bent on pushing an ideological agenda who virtually know nothing about you?
	I mean, do you have any idea?
	Maybe I cannot speak to that part, but maybe I can say in general that some may not, many not.
	But I will just say that It is just so unfair, absurd.
	There is no word that I can describe.
	It's not because it's happening to me.
	Surreal.
	Yeah, surreal.
	That's the word.
	Yeah, surreal.
	No one should go through that.
	No one, for whatever reasons, think, you know.
	Okay, so let's talk about that for a minute.
	So back to that day that you knew that something was afoot, exactly what happened.
	So a former student alerted you that something was up, and you checked out Twitter, and you saw accusations about your character and about what you've written flying around on Twitter.
	And the people who were producing these accusations were parts of student organizations.
	What kind of student organizations were they part of?
	I think I can speak to that part because it's in the media.
	So Divest was one of them, Divest Mount A. Another one was Black Student Association.
	And the other one, ironically, was the Rose Campaign.
	It's about the massacre at Polytechnique.
	And it means the world to me.
	Polytechnique is University of Montreal, right?
	So every year I I commemorate, you know, I participate.
	So that one group was that group, saying that I encourage gender violence, sexual violence through my writing on the blog.
	And that was because you were pointing out that such activity is not part and parcel of the central culture in Canada, but an aberration?
	I was perhaps talking about, I don't know, honor killing in some places, you know, so I read a media about a certain young woman who was killed and I put a candle, you know, for her memory and I wrote something, you know, comment about that.
	So that's because I And how is it that you're glorifying sexual violence by doing that exactly?
	I have no idea.
	I wish I could answer, but I... OK, so that that particular accusation, not only I've been thinking lately that there are about about deception, the use of deception.
	And, you know, there are lies that are just about true, but they're just sort of they're not quite true.
	And so you sneak them by because.
	They're close enough to the truth maybe to pass.
	But then there are lies that are the antithesis of the truth, right?
	They're anti-truths.
	And it seems to me that the accusations that you're glorifying sexual violence fall in the antithesis category of untruth.
	Not only is it a lie, it's the opposite of the truth.
	Yes, but when it's about the block, I can understand.
	I can understand Because they don't like it, they're emotional about it, they're right.
	That I can understand.
	But when we come to talk about a behavior, a situation, an incident that has never happened, that is a different story.
	How do you separate out those two?
	I think it all came in the context of the complaints and the situation of the blog.
	But I don't know for sure because I remember I didn't know how it started at the beginning.
	But logically, it came when through that, you know, the process of, I call it speed mobbing because it was like speed dating.
	It was so fast, so It felt like, how can I say it with all respect, like having barking dogs coming at you all at once.
	Yeah, so how about we call this assault?
	Yes.
	Yes, absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	Look, I've watched lots of people respond to Twitter mobs over the last four years.
	And my experience has been that being mobbed by 20 people on Twitter, especially when an administrative organization then climbs in, that's enough to seriously damage someone.
	And most people climb back and apologize as fast as they possibly can.
	And it's no wonder, because it's very unnerving and destabilizing.
	Yes.
	And so, you're someone who is obviously deeply opposed to such things as sexual exploitation, clearly, and assault, and the use of arbitrary violence.
	And nonetheless...
	You're targeted by precisely that kind of behavior.
	And then it's encouraged in every possible way, as far as I can tell, by the administration, who immediately fold in the most cowardly of possible ways.
	And so I just, this is just, it's outrageous.
	And I can't understand why there isn't more noise about it.
	I mean, you're the wrong target, clearly.
	Thank you.
	I can't speak for the motivation, but I can speak of not standing up for me.
	What I see, I saw the whole Canada stood up for me, like the people writing amazing...
	Comments on the GoFundMe campaign.
	People donating.
	I'm overwhelmed by that.
	I see people standing up.
	Right, right.
	And I'm still into the thanking, thanking.
	And I want to thank them if they are listening because I didn't have the time to complete all my personalized thank you note to each one.
	Okay, so 10,000 people support you and 20 people complain and yet the university suspends you.
	So, like, what the hell's up with that exactly?
	How come there's no proportionality of response?
	If the overwhelming body of the population is supportive of who you are, let's say, and what you've done, which is nothing that deserves the kind of treatment that you've been through, why isn't the university as sensitive to the public opinion supporting you as they are sensitive to the hypothetical public opinion damning you?
	How do you understand that?
	Well, you said this was surreal, and I want to delve more into that.
	So we'll deal with the public opinion issue in a bit.
	So let's go back to that Monday.
	So this is starting to unfold.
	You see this Twitter mob developing.
	There's these student factions, including people who are supporting causes that you support.
	So there was a massacre of six women at...
	In Montreal about 20 years ago, and that's commemorated every December 6th, and that's one of these student organizations.
	You say you commemorate that as well.
	Absolutely.
	So you're actually...
	There's no reason for you to be perceived as someone who's antithetical to that particular cause.
	All right, so these students are organizing.
	Do you even know if they're students?
	I don't know if I can answer that question, but they...
	Yes, I think.
	Okay, okay, okay, okay.
	Well, it's still stunning to me that you don't exactly know who your accusers, you don't know who your accusers are, you don't know how many of them there are, and you don't know exactly what it is that you've done wrong.
	And so what are you supposed to be doing in the interim?
	Are you supposed to be like reexamining your life?
	Don't you have to take diversity, inclusivity and equity training?
	I think it's in the public, so I can say it, yes, in the media.
	So that's mandated?
	It was written, so I'm not talking about something that is internal.
	I'm respecting all what I should be respecting, confidentiality of the process.
	But it's in the media.
	So I can say yes, that is something that went to the student in an email.
	Okay, so despite the fact that you haven't been, let's say, convicted of any wrongdoing, you're required to take diversity, inclusivity and equity training.
	And that's despite your background, let's say.
	So what exactly, first of all, are you going to do that?
	that.
	And second of all, what exactly are you supposed to learn by doing that?
	What behavior do you think it is that your attitudes are you supposed to mend and alter?
	Sure.
	I'm gonna tell you a story from my past when I was 14, and you can guess if I'm gonna take it.
	When I was 14, 14, I think, yes.
	I was the delegate of the class in Beirut, and a group of armed men, heavily armed, Kalashnikov, came and said, we should go as students to applaud to a certain politician.
	I'm not naming it, it doesn't matter, and I forgot whom.
	So I stood up and I said, no, we are students.
	Our place is here.
	Not to go for political ideology.
	We're not going.
	And they insisted.
	Actually, they took all the students of all the schools around.
	And a friend of mine that I recently met in Beirut told me, you know what, Hima, do you know why you did not go?
	I said, she reminded me of the story.
	I went to hide in the washroom.
	I did not go with them.
	So they were heavily armed and I did not go with them.
	I think I'm also, I think I'm a reasonable, flexible person.
	Had that been at the beginning, I would have perhaps considered perhaps going and listening, okay, or perhaps.
	But after all this, does it make any sense?
	That's all I'm going to say.
	It's like, it's, I know that let's not just talk about my story because it's the symptom.
	It's happening across.
	It's like, And it's insulting to people who do not need to be taking such things.
	Yeah, you might say that.
	I mean, you're a highly educated person.
	It's not easy to attain a faculty position.
	It's actually quite difficult and only a minority of people manage it.
	You have to be smart and you have to be curious and you have to be at least a decent teacher and you have to be a good researcher.
	You have to be able to work with people, your co-authors, your peers.
	You have to be efficient.
	It's a hard job.
	And it's also a job that requires, and you also have a clinical background, so you're actually technically socially skilled and highly trained.
	And then the question is, just exactly who the hell would be teaching the diversity, inclusivity, and equity course?
	So that would be someone, in all likelihood, with a master's in social work.
	Who is going to lecture you on your ethical duty to others and assume that you are in a position that requires exactly that kind of education, despite the fact of your advanced training.
	And that speaks to the motivation behind this sort of thing as well, especially when it's forced.
	And because by forcing that on you and having you accept that, that's...
	That's essentially an admission of your guilt and the necessity that you've come to realize for yourself that you need to be retrained by someone who holds those particular political opinions and that level of training.
	There's no evidence whatsoever, you likely know this as a psychological researcher, that any of this diversity, inclusivity, and equity training, any of this implicit bias retraining has any positive effects whatsoever.
	There's no evidence that the Implicit association test that purports to measure implicit bias is a valid test.
	It certainly isn't accurate enough to be used for the purposes that it is being used for.
	It's turned into a political weapon.
	There's no excuse for it whatsoever.
	And the human resources departments that are pushing this sort of thing It's reprehensible right to the core.
	And I can't believe that institutions are falling prey to the blandishments of those who are pushing this.
	That's a pure power play, to speak to motivation.
	And it puts you in your place, which is exactly what's being hoped for, whatever that place is, since it's not even clear what it is that you did.
	Absolutely.
	I still don't know what it is that you did.
	But the thing that's so frightening is it doesn't really matter.
	Okay, so back to Monday.
	So a Twitter war is developing.
	There's student groups who are sending complaints about you to who?
	Supposedly to the university?
	Oh yeah, there's an anti-racism policy.
	It's in the email.
	I'm not saying something that I'm not supposed to be saying.
	It's an anti-racism response...
	Okay, so there's an administrative branch at the university set up to deal with anti-racism, let's say.
	So it's a political branch.
	It's a politicized branch.
	And their job is to do exactly to you what they did do to you.
	And so those were the people who were complained to.
	What about your department?
	You mentioned political.
	I want to say it's a policy.
	It's an internal policy, like harassment policy.
	Yeah.
	And there's an administrative bureaucracy that's associated with it.
	And this is an expression of their ability to fulfill their mandate, let's say, given that they're searching for things to do.
	And you're the sort of racist that they've decided to target.
	Which shows you exactly how much useful activity there is lying around.
	If you're the sort of person they're going after, the racists at Mount Ellison must be in relatively short supply.
	Yeah, I would say, yes, I agree.
	Because if it's like, as I told you, classical liberal and the center, you know, if that is not tolerated, how can we tolerate someone to the real right, which rather have the right to be right, right?
	But real right, or so, like, it's too much, like we, I don't know what to say, because you can look at it from different angles.
	There's that political thing, the freedom, academic freedom, definitely.
	But also free expression in the world because societies look up to universities for that.
	So if professors cannot talk, cannot communicate and debate, I didn't see any students from my university writing on the blog.
	I saw someone who wrote and I replied.
	But not from the university, but no one...
	Like, why don't they challenge that Bambi and write and say it doesn't, you know, when the story happened?
	It didn't happen.
	It could have been a platform for debate, for, you know, exchanging ideas.
	If you buy the line that people aggregate themselves into groups...
	Based on power and pursue their own selfish interest within that group.
	There's no space for free debate between individuals.
	That's not part and parcel of the entire doctrine.
	It's not like...
	It's not like...
	There's no free speech within the confines of doctrines like that.
	The notion doesn't exist because there's no sovereign individuals.
	There's no exchange of rational information.
	There's no place for debate, so the whole issue of free speech is moot.
	There's just power and the expression of power between different groups.
	And there's fear, because when you silence or try to silence someone or isolate someone, people around are afraid.
	Yeah, well, I can't help but think that those who claim that social institutions are predicated on the arbitrary expression of power are precisely those who predicate their social behavior on the principle of power.
	And they misread everyone else.
	And I don't think there's any evidence at all that well-socialized people who are functioning productively and cooperatively in society are basing their social interactions on the arbitrary expression of power.
	That isn't my experience with people.
	Unless there's something wrong with them.
	And then they default to power in all their relationships.
	But there's no place for rational debate.
	In the, in the, in the, on the ideological front that insists on such things as systemic racism.
	Okay, so Monday, back to Monday again, how long after these complaints arise, are you sanctioned?
	Are you, are, how long is it until you're told that you can't teach in the fall?
	I think I'm not talking about the details, but there has been a process, of course, the investigation and the report and, and And after that, the decision was that I'm suspended without pay from now until December the 1st.
	And it's without pay as well?
	Without pay.
	And did the report suspending you without pay detail your hypothetical crimes?
	Not the report, the decision made based on the independent report.
	And who made up this independent, who generated this independent report?
	Maybe these things I can't talk about because it would be part of arbitration and all that, but it's not that I don't want to chat with you.
	I know, I understand.
	It's funny that the privacy of the people that are doing this to you is protected and your privacy isn't.
	I actually don't think that's funny at all.
	And I suspect they're doing just fine with their continual salary payments and their lack of suspension over the next few months.
	So it seems like a pretty one-sided power play to me.
	You can't say anything, you're suspended, and yet they're protected.
	Yes.
	And in the media, the same story that is false has been repeated and recently has been repeated.
	So yes, definitely.
	You're absolutely right.
	What's the false story?
	The false story, I think because it's in the media, I can talk about it.
	The false story is that I, well, you may be...
	There's a topic that the student is saying that I did not want to use the pronouns of the student and that I said the student is brainwashed.
	And from what the discussion chat so far you had with me or what you've read or what my values, what I told you about respect, would I ever tell someone these things in those terms?
	It's...
	It's...
	I don't know how to say it.
	Well, we already decided that it was surreal.
	It's surreal.
	It doesn't matter.
	No, no.
	Okay, so...
	Can I say something myself?
	You can say anything you want.
	It's actually about that story of the pronouns.
	You know, some people like to be called with pronouns.
	Some people don't like to be called with pronouns.
	Some people have pronouns after their name.
	You don't.
	I don't.
	And it's fine, you know, when we want to be respectful.
	It's not fine if it's insisted upon and the punishment is that if you don't use them, you lose your job.
	That's actually not the least bit fine.
	I'll tell you more than that.
	I'm happy you said that because when your story came out, I listened carefully.
	And with my heart.
	And actually, Bambi spoke about your book at one point and the attempt to try to cancel it.
	And so I listened.
	I listened to people the opposite.
	They were angry at you and all that on TV. And I thought, okay, what is going on here?
	And I told myself, I think...
	He's seeing something we're not seeing, you know, something when you talk about imposing control.
	I could see it because I come from a place where I could see these things happening.
	So I saw it.
	At one point, I stepped back and I said, but is it a big deal to refuse to reserve?
	I had that thought.
	Yeah, well, believe me, I've had that thought many times.
	You were right.
	Now I can tell you my story is the evidence of how much you were right.
	I'll tell you why.
	Because I didn't even say it.
	Even so, it can happen to you even without saying it, if you see what I mean.
	I see what you mean.
	It's the same slouching monster that I saw five years ago.
	It's not amusing.
	It's not fun to see.
	I don't find it, what would you say, reassuring to be right.
	I would rather have been wrong.
	I could see a power play and I could also see a corruption of the idea of identity.
	Identity isn't merely what you feel you are at any given point.
	Identity is something you negotiate with others.
	You have to negotiate it with others because they have to know what the rules are.
	And if you can change the rules and make them arbitrary at any point, then how can anyone play with you?
	And maybe if you're setting up a game that no one can play, you're doing that because you're the one that has the problem with power.
	Just maybe.
	And so maybe that's a club that can be then used on people if you're of the nature that wants to use a club.
	It's like, why the hell are these people after you?
	You don't seem particularly harmful to me, as far as I can tell.
	Thank you.
	You know, I mean, your research is devoted towards helping people.
	You're an educator who's obviously, what would you say, motivated by the desire to teach young people and to bring them forward, not to exercise your arbitrary power over them.
	And yet you're targeted by this.
	So what's this done to you and to your family?
	It's...
	What breaks my heart the most is my family in Beirut.
	That's what breaks my heart the most.
	But of course, my spouse as well and all the friends and everyone.
	But my parents, they are in their 80s.
	They went through the Beirut explosion.
	They survived it.
	There's the financial crisis.
	There are implications.
	A lot of implications to many people and people who are just sad to see this happen.
	It is sad.
	It's sad.
	Yeah, it's sad.
	It is sad.
	And why sad?
	Why do you say sad exactly?
	And the people that are responding to this, what's sad about it?
	I mean, you guys had your share of trouble in Lebanon.
	Because we are at that stage in Canada, it breaks my heart maybe the most to think that, like, I tell you the effect, one friend, a childhood friend, when she read the news about it, and because it's all everywhere, it was in Spanish written somewhere, I don't know, she called me, they were thinking of immigrating to Canada, and she said, I'm scared now, maybe I should wait a little bit, maybe Lebanon's situation will get better.
	She said that, and I was like, I said, it's a It's a period of time, history, it shall pass.
	But I said it's true that it's unimaginable.
	In Lebanon, we look up to Canada, to the Western world, if you want, or by extension.
	People value democracy.
	People get killed sometimes when it's extreme because of their thoughts.
	But when people can say whatever they wish on Facebook, social media, I don't know how to say it, but I criticized one powerful group, but not only everyone, but that powerful group so many times.
	And yet, I did not get that treatment from that powerful group there.
	And so what are your plans now?
	Your life has been thrown up in the air.
	I mean, you must have been going through your teaching career with a fine-tooth comb trying to figure out, you know, if you did.
	I mean, what's really horrible if something like this happens to you?
	If you're a decent person, is that you torture yourself to death about what your guilt might be?
	Yeah, but you know, as I said, people around me are losing sleep.
	Not yet.
	I don't know if it's going to happen, but not yet.
	Because you know what?
	I think when we know ourselves, We know the truth.
	No matter what you're going to be reading about you, this is not you.
	You are you, Dr.
	Peterson.
	I know you.
	But you, you talk to me.
	It's not what people would say.
	You know, nasty things.
	Through difficult times, some people would say he deserves that.
	I get out of my mind when I see someone saying that to anyone, but particularly to you for all what you did and went through and all that.
	It's just sad.
	Again, I'm saying We've got to that stage in Canada where we don't want to listen.
	Why can't I say, what is the meaning of, let's say, systemic racism, because you mentioned it.
	What does it mean?
	As scientists, we define, you know, we measure, we chat about concepts, we write reviews like concept analysis, we talk to stakeholders, literature, all that.
	So why can't we say, okay, what are we talking about here?
	Where does it, is it coming from?
	Where is it imposed on us from, you know...
	I think I have some hypothesis with my expertise, but I just know that it's...
	Why can't we say it?
	Like, is it a dogma?
	Is it an idea?
	What is it?
	Why can't we...
	Well, I think it's a claim.
	I think it's a claim.
	The fundamental claim is quite straightforward, I think.
	I think the claim is that people who hold positions of authority...
	First of all, there aren't positions of authority.
	There are positions of arbitrary power.
	And the people who hold those...
	So all hierarchical societies are based on positioning of arbitrary power.
	And that power serves that hierarchy and the people within it.
	It exploits those at the bottom of the hierarchy.
	It exploits those on the outside of the hierarchy.
	If you hold one of those arbitrary positions of power, then you got it through ill-gotten means.
	And that's the fundamental claim of systemic racism, or that's what's underlying it.
	It's not the fundamental claim of systemic racism exactly.
	It's more like the fundamental claim of the ideology that generates slogans like systemic racism, and it's part of the assault on the idea of merit.
	And so I was writing about that today.
	I mean, the things that...
	You can tell me what you think about...
	Let's look at hiring practices at Canadian universities, for example.
	Okay, so my sense has been this.
	I've sat on many, many hiring committees.
	The first is that they're extremely merit-based.
	So the first thing that the typical committee does is they rank order candidates, and there's like 100 candidates for every position that's awarded.
	So there's plenty of people to choose from.
	They look at publications, Quality of publications, because as a professor, one of the things you're supposed to do is generate publications.
	So if you're a graduate student and you generated many high-quality publications, that's a good predictor that you're going to do the same thing in the future.
	They look at teaching ability.
	That'd be secondary at most places, especially if they're research-oriented.
	Be more primary at a teaching-oriented university.
	So teaching ratings from students, so the stakeholders have a say in that that's a powerful say.
	And then also evidence of interpersonal abilities.
	So you look at letters of reference and so on, documenting the candidate's ability to be a good colleague and to get along with people and not to be a troublesome thorn in the side, let's say, for arbitrary reasons.
	And so...
	Those are perfectly reasonable hiring criteria.
	They have nothing to do with the maintenance of the power of any particular group.
	And then there's even more than that, because once the candidate pool has been winnowed out, the probability that a university hiring committee is going to give preferential treatment to someone who's qualified within that pool, but who shows who's, let's say a member of a group that's been historically disadvantaged to use all this bloody terminology
	the probability that that person is going to get more than a fair shake is very very high and that's been the case for at least 30 years and it isn't clear to me that that's always been for the best but nonetheless that's the situation so So to think about those institutions, Canadian universities, American universities too, for that matter, as somehow being predicated on arbitrary power, it's not, again, it's not a lie.
	It's an anti-truth.
	It's exactly the opposite of the real situation.
	And, you know, you might say, you look at Canada, I know one of your crimes was suggesting that Among countries, rather than among the hypothetical utopian visions of ideologically addled students, Canada does pretty damn well by historical standards and by current world comparative standards.
	And you might say, well, there's still detrimental behaviors that are embedded within the culture, but in the case of university hiring committees, it isn't obvious to me how they could possibly be more fair than they are.
	They strive so hard to be fair that they bend over backwards, at least to some degree, in the opposite direction.
	And so...
	So, okay, so you didn't attain your position as a consequence of some arbitrary expression of power.
	You're actually qualified to do the job that you have, and yet you're going to be mandated to take diversity, inclusivity, and equity training.
	You know, I've been thinking for a long time where the line is that divides the reasonable left from the unreasonable left.
	And it's certainly equity conceived as equality of outcome.
	When you push that line, that's too far.
	But I think the whole diversity, inclusivity and equity slogan, mantra, people who mouth that and push it, they've gone too far.
	That's the line right there.
	And you can tell that because it's being imposed by fiat on people like you.
	I agree.
	It's actually, it breaks my heart that the left has been The beautiful left that I know, hijacked type of thing, but that movement that is radical, insane, it's realistic.
	I don't know.
	But I don't think it's just the left.
	I think it's spreading.
	But I mean, that left that I would think, you know, the right...
	Of workers, the rights of immigrants.
	I'm thinking that whatever movement is using, that's my personal opinion, and maybe I would get shot at for saying it.
	Well, you've already been shot at, so now you can say what you want.
	Yes, so I think that it's...
	How can I say it?
	It's not because someone is of my same background, precise place where I came from, religion, whatever, that that person would represent me better than someone else who is more competent, as you said, who makes more sense.
	Right.
	Well, that's an insane part of this doctrine to begin with.
	The idea that these arbitrary groupings, your gender, your sex, your race, means that you have something more profound in common, for example, than with people who share more differentiated elements of your character, your ambition, your values, more importantly.
	Yes.
	And I'll tell you, in Lebanon, they have quotas based on religion.
	I get obsessed with religion.
	To be a president, you have to be Christian, to be Prime Minister, Sunni, Muslim, etc.
	So I cannot be a president there and not write a specific part of whatever, not Prime Minister, you know.
	So all this is that the people of Lebanon right now, They are saying no to sectarianism.
	They know it didn't work.
	It was unfair.
	They don't want it.
	Whereas here, we are trying to bring that to us here.
	There is a reason why all our collective agreements protect merit, right?
	And you said merit-based hiring and all that.
	I do believe personally that it is insulting for me to tell me that I'm going to get a job because I am Lebanese or I am this or that.
	Well, it's particularly insulting if you're qualified.
	Absolutely.
	So it is particularly insulting if I'm qualified, definitely.
	And so to come to tell me that, let's say, if we're going to talk about one part of the identity, you mentioned gender, but it could be, let's say, skin color, right?
	So what does someone from Palestine who happens to have a black skin have in common with the president of the United States, a former president, Do they have someone from Haiti driving a cab in Montreal?
	No, there's culture, there's language.
	Well, look, as social scientists, we could agree that one of the factors that might give people some similarity of experience would be race or ethnicity.
	Right?
	I mean, but it's one factor among many.
	Yes.
	And if I was writing today about what predicts success in complex Western organizations.
	Okay, so what predicts success if you look at it psychometrically?
	So you break down all the attributes of people and you decide which measurable attribute would be associated with socioeconomic position, let's say.
	Well, the best two predictors are general cognitive ability, which is basically ability to learn and to deal with complex abstractions, and that predicts performance in high-complexity jobs, and high-complexity jobs involve a lot of change and necessity for learning.
	So, ability to learn and ability to solve complex problems predicts success in jobs that require the ability to learn and the ability to deal with complex situations, and that's measurable.
	SATs measure that.
	GREs measure that.
	The LSATs measure that.
	And they don't measure it perfectly, but they measure it better than anything else we know.
	And the other thing that predicts universally, in some sense, across job categories is conscientiousness.
	And that's hard work, essentially.
	Industriousness, orderliness.
	But industriousness predicts better.
	So amount of hours put in...
	The ability and willingness to formulate and maintain social contracts.
	So there's honesty and integrity associated with that.
	So the research literature indicates that the best predictors of success are ability to learn and conscientiousness.
	It's like, well...
	Come up with a better definition of merit than that if you dare.
	Because you can't.
	Now, openness to experience, which is a creativity trait, predicts entrepreneurial ability and creative ability.
	And extroversion predicts sales ability.
	And agreeableness predicts, say, nursing and the capacity to take care of people.
	There are other personality attributes that are relevant, but those are the main ones.
	So how is that not just dead-set evidence for the existence of As functional a meritocracy as we've been able to manage, right?
	I mean, it's distorted by power claims.
	It's distorted by deception and bad hiring practices and nepotism and all the things.
	But that's not central or core to the system.
	I don't know any...
	Reasonably well-functioning organization in the West where that isn't the case.
	Businesses as well bend over backwards to be more than fair in their hiring practices.
	They want competent people and you can define competence and you can define and measure merit.
	Of course.
	I think what's at the basis of all of this radical critique is an assault on the idea of merit itself.
	And I can understand that, you know, because talents are unfairly distributed.
	And in the end, it will lower the standards of the society.
	Well, that's the thing.
	You know, if you look at this, maybe you're cold-hearted and you look at this purely from...
	And I imagine you even manifested a critique from the left.
	You really think that corporations aren't...
	Concerned enough about their own survival to do everything they possibly can to select the most competent people?
	Obviously they're going to do that and it's actually of benefit to everyone else.
	Because what's the alternative?
	Random selection?
	If you're put in a position that you're not qualified for, you're going to fail.
	That is not very positive for you.
	It's no mercy to put someone somewhere where they're going to fail.
	Absolutely.
	That's not helpful.
	We see all these selection processes now being subject to critique.
	Universities are abandoning standardized tests.
	They don't know the literature, the people who are doing this.
	They're going to replace them with selection mechanisms that are far more pathological.
	I was talking with one of my colleagues, for example, so...
	Among the universities that abandoned the GRE, the Graduate Record Exam, for graduate student entrance, what happened was that those students who came from elite universities had a much higher probability of being accepted than they did when the GRE was part of the package.
	Because the GRE actually equalized across universities.
	So you throw it out, and what happens is those who had the fortune to go to a prestigious university have a much bigger advantage.
	That's exactly what's going to happen when we throw out valid measures of competence.
	I happen to agree with you on that.
	And we'll have a sort of hyperinflation of grades, like with some currency.
	We'll get to that, maybe.
	Like what happened in Lebanon, hyperinflation.
	Here we get inflation at one point.
	I guess.
	But for the grades as well, I understand the reflex of some to say, oh, it's the pandemic to help, but I'm thinking that it would help.
	My point was during war in Lebanon, twice, I had to do two years in one.
	So we'd have seven chapters of math at once, five of physics to catch up like two years in one.
	Never, ever they did what we are doing here.
	You know, like removing the grades, doing something.
	It remained thorough.
	15 years of civil war.
	And so that was my experience.
	Of course, it's a decision, a group decision, although I'm not talking.
	But I'm saying that when I think about that, I agree.
	So now you're in limbo.
	Like, what faces you now?
	What's in the future for you?
	Is it a tribunal?
	Like, how are you going to be tried for your crimes?
	The arbitration.
	So I saw the arbitration process.
	And...
	Whatever other processes.
	So I can't answer that because right now, I don't know.
	It's developing fast.
	So you don't know the process by which this is going to be remediated?
	Oh, I know, of course.
	The arbitration.
	Right, so what does that mean, practically speaking?
	What do you have to do and what's going to happen to you?
	We will see, but I know that whatever step that is being done that is not right, there has been a grievance for it.
	That's all I can say, because that I can speak to, but not the details.
	Okay, so is your union supporting you?
	Yes, and I'm grateful.
	Okay, well thank God for that.
	So they've decided they'll support you on what grounds?
	I cannot speak for the details that may be harming the arbitration without knowing, but I can tell something that really anyone reading that blog and thinking like, how is that?
	There are so many angles to it.
	But definitely like the blog, the freedom, the academic freedom, but that I can stick to because that's what I think so as well.
	But there are other things that I will not be talking about right now.
	And when does this arbitration process begin?
	And I mean, you're on the hook at least till January of 2022?
	December the 1st.
	Yes, December the 1st for the suspension part.
	And also when that didn't go public, but also like, how am I going to, you know, like suspension, but also not being able to be on campus, for example.
	So can you not be on campus?
	No.
	Maybe that part I would have...
	It's not secret, but I'm sharing something with you.
	Oh, so are you forbidden to go on the campus?
	Well, it's part of the things that you're suspended from being paid, so you're not on campus, yes.
	Okay, what happens if you go on campus?
	Do you know?
	Well, we had municipal elections lately and I joked to myself saying, had it been on campus, what do I do?
	It's a legal problem, I guess, or whatever problem it is.
	And so what are the grounds for not allowing you to be on the campus?
	I guess I'm toxic, maybe, or maybe that part of...
	It's because you present a danger.
	Danger.
	Unsafety.
	Right, right.
	So that makes sense.
	So now you're an unsafe person and so you can't go on the campus because of the threat that you might pose to students.
	Yes.
	How are your colleagues responding to this?
	Well, again, I can't speak for them, but I can speak in general.
	I can say in these situations when they happen, some people will come forward.
	Some people will be afraid.
	I understand that people are afraid.
	I totally understand because we're different, right?
	We react differently.
	We may come forward to support me or do something, but some people will not because they have family, family, children.
	Yeah, well, not coming forward is not going to protect them.
	If this can happen to you, like the lesson here, there's only two lessons here.
	Either you're a bad person and you got exactly what you deserved.
	Or this can happen to anyone.
	And so look the hell out.
	I totally agree.
	And I tend to stand up for people.
	No, I stand up for people in real life, but also on the blog.
	I write when something isn't right.
	Like, for example, I'm thinking quickly of a situation.
	Maybe Dr.
	Mathieu Bocotte in Montreal, whenever he has stories like...
	Being cancelled or trying to attempt to cancel.
	Or maybe Dr.
	Gatzad, again from Montreal, I know you're friends.
	I said bravo to the Jewish Public Library.
	Library.
	Yeah, because they...
	And even the Prime Minister of Quebec, I may have had a post saying bravo.
	The University of Laval as well, you know, saying that academic freedom must be protected.
	Like, say, academic, I mean, is protected.
	So that's, I mean, a recommitment to it, if you see what I mean.
	Well, look, the academic...
	The bulk of the abstract intellectual work in our society goes on at universities, so that's where the cutting edge is.
	It's not the only place.
	It happens in many places, but it's one of the main places.
	It's certainly the main place where training for that is still instituted, apprenticeship for that is still instituted.
	And so if that comes under assault, if that's in danger, Then what's to protect the same thing in the rest of the culture?
	If it goes where it's paramount, if it's threatened where it's paramount, it's going to be threatened everywhere.
	And that's why people should pay attention to what's happening to you.
	Should put as much pressure as they possibly can on the administration at Mount Ellison to reverse their insane decision and to have some courage instead of kowtowing to a tiny minority of students who don't even represent the communities they purport to represent.
	You know, my guess is if we took those, and it'd be easy enough to find out, but no one will do it, If we surveyed these student organizations, presented them with your story and surveyed them, I suspect that the vast majority of students within those organizations themselves would be appalled at what's being done to you.
	So there's a handful of students who say they represent a tiny proportion of students but who actually don't, who complain bitterly in the background and use deception to bring administrative force to bear on someone like you.
	And somehow that's okay.
	And despite the fact that thousands of people express their support for you...
	The university won't change its mind.
	And for what?
	To indicate their commitment to what?
	To this insane ideology that purports to be anti-racist?
	You can see how fair it is in your case.
	You know, we're matching an actual injustice against a bunch of hypothetical injustices.
	Yes, and my take on it was at the beginning that, okay, they chose whatever path I've never...
	But now, I am the target because of all this.
	If you see what I mean.
	You're a target.
	Not just a target.
	You've also been hit.
	You're not just a target.
	Exactly.
	You've been successfully hit.
	Exactly.
	When you are a researcher, when you are a...
	Faculty might be doing your research, your services across the province and the country.
	Your reputation, even if you want to go find another job somewhere else, your reputation is all what you have, right?
	Your reputation is done.
	Look, the other thing is, you're on hiring committees.
	I sat on hiring committees.
	So here's another rule about hiring committees.
	And so...
	Given that there's a preponderance of candidates, and that there's a preponderance of qualified candidates, any and all candidates who show any sign whatsoever of scandal are immediately removed from the pack.
	Because the hiring committees won't tolerate the risk.
	So as soon as you've been brushed with scandal, and then here's another question for you, because I've had to think this through, and I'm still not exactly sure what to make of it.
	I could go back to the University of Toronto.
	What about my graduate students?
	What bloody chance do they have on the job market?
	It doesn't matter about their publication rates.
	So let's say they come out with a stellar publication, but they're associated with me.
	It's like, are they going to find a job?
	Well, the answer to that is perhaps not.
	And so what am I supposed to do with that as a moral person?
	Am I supposed to not go back to the university because merely being associated with me is enough to increase the probability that my qualified students won't be acceptable to any hiring committee?
	No.
	These shots are unbelievably effective, even if you can manage them.
	And it's not obvious that you can manage them.
	I mean, you're still going through this.
	You have months to go without gainful employment, you know, and the doubts creep in when you're accused of this sort of thing, because anybody with any sense pays attention to accusations.
	If you're a psychopathic to the core, you don't care what other people think.
	But if you're a reasonable person, you're modifying your behavior all the time as a consequence of the effect you have on others.
	So while I'm reprehensible enough, so an institution that I admired deeply...
	Me too.
	And the whole Canada, right?
	But I want to say something.
	You know, some people believe what they read, and they do not question or apply or say, let's listen to the other side, let's see what happens.
	Some even, you know, friends would call my spouse and say, well, even if it has been said, it's too much.
	But my spouse would say, she has not said it.
	So they thought, because it's written in such a way that is...
	Yeah, well, you know what they say, where there's smoke, there's fire.
	Exactly.
	But let's assume, like, some people are saying, even if, like, the...
	How can I say?
	The punishment or the...
	Discipline is beyond...
	is surrealist.
	Disproportionate.
	Disproportionate.
	Yes, and severe, which it certainly is.
	Yes.
	So, what do you do now?
	What are you doing?
	I mean, how have you been...
	Structuring your life in the aftermath of this.
	I've never imagined that we can be working as hard as that without being suspended without pay.
	I'm very busy working, doing what I need to do, replying to emails, thanking people, strategizing, doing things, working basically on that.
	So all that time, I'm not putting it on my research.
	I'm not putting it on future courses if I'm still here.
	So I'm living day by day, but I am fine in the sense that I know who I am, I know my values, I know the value of freedom, free expression for me, academic freedom, slash that are related, right?
	That I know for sure.
	One of my friends once said, the truth doesn't matter anymore because there has been a narrative.
	But luckily, there has been amazing journalists who have had more, I'm not going to be naming, but everyone knows, had more than I can ever imagine.
	I felt that those articles fell on me from heaven.
	So the narrative has shifted, if you see what I mean.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, well, I was fortunate enough to have some of Canada's preeminent journalists, you know, take a second look what I was doing and actually think it through and, you know, come out in support of me.
	Thank God for that.
	Yes.
	And that was definitely a lifesaver repeatedly over time.
	So thank, you know, absolutely.
	Thank God there are people who still want to know what the actual story is.
	So...
	Well, is there anything else that you...
	Let's talk about your colleagues again.
	You said that, have any of your colleagues in the department at Mount Ellison made a public statement of support for you?
	Public statement, Anna?
	Yeah, public statement.
	Sorry to put you on the spot, but you know, this is an important question.
	It's a very important question.
	If the people right next to you who know you and who have worked with you are so afraid that they can't say this is not right collectively, which is what they should have done, they should have come together as a group, as a faculty, and said, you go after her, you go after all of us.
	But that isn't what's happening.
	And so this divide and conquer strategy works just fine because you can single someone out of the crowd and go after them and everyone else shies away.
	Very good question.
	But I think part of it, they must be shocked right now.
	Part of it is how, you know, actually, I'm not talking about the university, I'm sorry, universities, these investigations are private, confidential, so like no one knows.
	And me, without...
	Things being confidential, I tend to be discreet.
	I do not talk or bad talk about people.
	My colleagues know very well.
	It's not my style.
	I focus on my task.
	I do what I need to do.
	My family, they know I don't like blah, blah, blah.
	I tend to be more aggressive directly when I have to.
	If I have to, like now, You know, that fight.
	But not when I'm like, how can I say it?
	So I don't do that passive aggressive and talking and all that.
	Yes, I got kindness indirectly, but without it being said throughout like the work that we are doing, you know, that work and all this, but they didn't know what I was going through.
	Probably, or maybe they knew, or I don't know.
	There's fear, definitely.
	Not at my institution.
	There's fear in the province.
	Yeah, well, you know, fear is justified, as far as I'm concerned.
	But you better bloody well be sure you're afraid of the right thing.
	And, you know, it's one thing to be afraid of making a public statement, say, in support of you.
	And to be afraid of the consequences of that, although if every single one of your faculty colleagues did that, the university would buckle instantly and apologize to you.
	So, but, if they, okay, so they're afraid of doing that, and they're afraid of, each of them individually is afraid of spearheading that, but why aren't they more afraid of ending up where you ended up?
	Well, the logic is, well, she was incautious, she wrote her blog, she said things that a sensible person shouldn't say, so that means that now they're doomed to only say those things that a sensible person would say under such conditions, which is to say absolutely nothing about anything, uh, Controversial ever again in their entire careers.
	Well, why not be afraid of that instead?
	Exactly.
	And it comes down to other situations where, let's say, someone is a victim of sexual harassment or something where we can blame the victim or saying, oh, the person was wearing something, maybe...
	You know what I mean?
	So maybe it's a way of saying she did it to herself because she's...
	Yeah.
	Well, that's the only other alternative.
	Yes, but definitely if it happened to me, it may and it could and it would happen to anyone, not just at my institution.
	It's definitely and no one should be going through that.
	Not you, not me, not anyone.
	None.
	Anything else?
	I want to say thank you for that platform.
	I think so highly of you.
	And as I said, some people would say, why did she talk to Dr.
	Peterson?
	Maybe she should talk to someone else.
	I want to thank everyone who went public that I'm reading to say something.
	I want to thank people that I didn't have the chance to already send my thanks.
	They know I made a post about that.
	But thank you to everyone.
	Merci.
	Yeah, well, you know, the other thing about who you choose to talk to in situations like this is that You choose to talk to people who will talk to you.
	Exactly.
	And then you find out pretty damn quickly who will talk to you and who won't.
	And so people might ask why you would come and talk to me, but part of the answer to that is because I'll actually talk to you.
	And so, you know, you find out who supports you and who doesn't and why they do and why they don't.
	And so, and then that, any criticism of that just becomes a further excuse to maintain silence when silence shouldn't be maintained.
	Like, I'm appalled at your colleagues, to speak frankly.
	I'm absolutely appalled at their silence on this issue.
	If they had an ounce of courage, they would unite together and they would tell the administration to back the hell off right now or else.
	And the fact that they won't do that is, it's appalling.
	And if they think that that's not going to come at a cost, then they've got their head buried in the sand in a way that requires a fair bit of intellectual gymnastics to manage, a fair bit of avoidance of the topic, avoidance of thinking it through.
	It's like, look what happened to Rima.
	Oh, well, she probably asked for it.
	You know, she wasn't as cautious.
	Yeah, that's the conclusion you're going to draw, eh?
	You think that's not going to have an impact on your own behavior?
	If they banded together behind you, this would be over right away.
	The university would buckle.
	And the people who sanctioned you would be fired, which is exactly what should happen.
	There's no excuse for what happened to you whatsoever.
	You know, and I've counseled a lot of people in my clinical practice who've been accused of all sorts of things.
	And one of the things I've learned is that it's very, very difficult for people to mount their own defense.
	You know, especially decent people, because they get accused of something and then they don't attribute to themselves the innocence that our legal system demands, right?
	Innocent until proven guilty.
	It's like, well, you try to apply that to yourself if you're accused, you'll find it's not so easy.
	You know, and I would say in your case, well...
	Not only are you innocent, but this is an anti-truth campaign.
	It's not like, well, you sort of did some things wrong and maybe you should be more careful in the future.
	It's like, no, you had a blog.
	You said some things on it that you had to say.
	They weren't reprehensible things.
	You have every right to do that.
	And maybe you even have an obligation to your creative spirit and to your desire to communicate and to formulate and clarify your thoughts, right?
	In a public forum where you can get some feedback and share your ideas with others, which is what you have to do if you're going to think.
	And so, you're not just innocent, you know, you're targeted in a manner that speaks of the true motivation behind the targeting, which is to take people like you down.
	And that's what's happened.
	Exactly.
	And your colleagues, they should hang their head in shame, and so should the university.
	It's absolutely appalling that one of Canada's finest undergraduate institutions should be participating in this bloody, awful, witch hunt charade.
	Can I add something?
	Final thing is, I totally agree with you, but...
	That Bambi or me, Rima, defended people I don't agree with, like on some topics, like for example, someone, a great professor of law, and I will name because you can read it if you want, Dr.
	Amir Ataran, I defend.
	He talks about Quebec in some words that I'm not very fond of, but I defended his right.
	And I thanked Mr.
	Trudeau for having said, you know, Quebec bashing, whatever.
	So that story.
	But I may like other posts he does.
	And I read him.
	If he's listening, if you will ever listen, I do read his Twitter.
	I read I read all, I learned that from war.
	I used to read all the news on all sides and not saying I read only this because you become, you know, like it's a brainwash type of thing if you want during war when you're only reading your side and you're not reading the other media, the other side.
	So that was one way of coping that I did is learning to Read and build my own thinking.
	And this is what I do now.
	I read those whom I don't agree with.
	Before reading those I agree with, I defended maybe politicians who are not very liked because they have been silenced on social media.
	I may have said no one should be silenced.
	No one, not any politician, no scholar, no citizen, no one.
	Well, if you can only defend those who you agree with, who are you going to defend?
	Exactly.
	You don't even agree with yourself all the time.
	You change your day from mind to mind.
	Exactly.
	You change your mind from day to day.
	That's what I do like that.
	Exactly.
	So it's, of course, unacceptable.
	But I do understand that people are afraid sometimes because they may have, you know, kids or it's a pandemic.
	They should be afraid.
	I agree with you, Rima.
	I agree with you.
	But the issue is, what should you be afraid of?
	Should you be afraid of defending your colleague or should you be afraid of the arbitrary power handed to, you know, half-wit student mobs hell-bent on bullying and destruction who are presenting themselves in the guise of moral avatars?
	Like, those are the people you should be afraid of.
	And cowardly administrators who kowtow instantly to any complaint, no matter how groundless, because they don't want to appear as sensitive as they might.
	Those are the things to be afraid of.
	So fear actually isn't a defense, because the fear justifies a kind of willful blindness that is not going to help us in this situation.
	No.
	Well, I hope that you find the continuing courage to be outraged on behalf of your innocence. - Yeah.
	And to go after and to not merely defend yourself, but to do it in an aggressive manner and to bring the people who've done this to you to something approximating justice.
	And that might include the students, too.
	Because it isn't obvious to me that they deserve to avoid sanction as a consequence of their actions.
	Why in the world should they be allowed to destroy someone's life?
	No, we all must be held accountable for our actions.
	So those actions have consequences.
	What they did to me is, as we said, surrealistic.
	Let's leave it there.
	But I totally agree with you.
	And all options should be considered in a battle like that, I would say.
	So if people want to write letters of support for you, Who should they go to?
	The chairman of your department?
	Who should they be sent to?
	I think maybe everyone.
	Maybe the higher administration, maybe the union copying the union, copying everyone.
	I got copies of letters, a lot of letters, from day one in February.
	And right now, even someone, a childhood friend from Lebanon on her own, she wrote.
	How many letters do you think have been written to the university in support of you?
	I'm still into the thinking and replying a lot.
	I'm still seeing my emails, but who knows?
	Is it hundreds?
	I can't put an accurate number, but a lot.
	Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe.
	Because some things are being done also without it being letters, but trying to push with other organizations.
	So there are things that I'm hearing about, people saying that they are doing them.
	Or from other universities I'm hearing.
	There is a big movement and that fundraising campaign.
	And so I'm overwhelmed by the support.
	And again, I want to thank everyone.
	You discover, probably it happened to you, you discover people, you know your friends, of course, but you discover people that you would never imagine that would have that courage to do what they did.
	It's an amazing experience, let's say.
	Well, we'll put the relevant links for wannabe letter writers in the description of the video so that they can do that.
	Yes, and you do discover, that's the thing, you know, you discover the pervasiveness of fear, first of all, and the fact that So many people, and perhaps the majority of people, allow misplaced fear to silence them in the short term and pay and pay and pay and pay for that in the medium to long term.
	And that's a terrible thing.
	But you do discover that there are people who have so much courage you can hardly believe it.
	Well, I wish you the best of luck dealing with this.
	Thank you so much for having me, and please keep doing what you do, and I'm a fan.
	I follow you.
	Well, that's probably not in your best interest, but I do appreciate it.
	I don't care.
	Remember, I'm not politically correct, so I do read you, and I do listen, and I appreciate.
	Thank you.
	Thanks very much.
	It was painful, but very good to talk to you.
	Take good care.
	Thank you.

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