Nov. 21, 2025 - Judging Freedom - Judge Andrew Napolitano
29:00
INTEL Roundtable w/ Johnson & McGovern - Weekly Wrap 21-NOV
|
Time
Text
Hi, everyone.
Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom.
Today is Friday, November 21st, 2025.
It's the end of the day, the end of the week, the end of a very hectic week, the most hectic for which was for Larry Johnson with all of us traveling.
But here we are, the intelligence community roundtable with Ray McGovern and Larry Johnson.
Larry, I would imagine you're not on very much sleep, but thank you for joining us.
Ray, of course, thank you for being here as well.
Double duty for both of you.
The news of the hour and the news of the day, of course, is the tentative 28-point plan agreement between the United States and Russia, which has already pretty much been rejected by Ukraine.
We have President Putin on this and we have President Zelensky on it.
But first, Larry, I want you to give us a big picture.
You managed to write about this, I think, when you were somewhere over the Atlantic, because I read it before you landed.
But big picture, your take on the 28-point plan, apparently arranged by Steve Witkoff and his crew rather than the American Secretary of State.
Yeah, this is an American draft.
The good news is it opens a way for Russia and the United States to continue talking.
The issue, it is, when you go through the draft, it's sort of a, it's, I'll call it amateur hour, a lot of it.
It intermingles things that really have nothing to do with a peace agreement in Ukraine, such as, hey, let's renew START 2.
I think renewing STAT 2 is a great idea, but that's a whole nother discussion.
That said, it's still the assumptions reflected in this 28-page document, assuming the one that's been published, and I put it, it's put out at sonar21.com, is clearly written strictly from the U.S. point of view.
It has shown some movement towards what Russia's demands are, but Russia hasn't relented on its demands.
And as of 36 hours ago, when Pepe Escobar and I, along with Alexander Kazakh and you, were talking to Maria Zakharova, she told you that, hey, we haven't seen any such document.
Right, right.
She told me that just as you said 36 hours ago, and then suddenly this thing appeared in the Financial Times.
Well, then about three hours ago, President Putin said, yeah, we've received the document.
It's a nice framework for discussion.
It's a nice place to begin.
He's not going to come out and say, there's a bunch of dead on arrival pieces in there.
No, no, listen, we're going to talk to America.
Do we know who negotiated this?
Was this Witkoff and his billionaire Russian buddy that he's been talking to?
Well, no, it was Sergei Lavrov involved.
Yeah, this was not negotiated.
This is not a negotiated document.
This is a U.S. draft that was prepared by Witkoff with inputs apparently from JD Vance, maybe from Marco Rubio, the Jason or Trump's son-in-law.
His name escapes me.
Jared Kushner.
Oh, Jared Kushner, yes.
Jared Kushner is an expert on Russia now, as well as Gaza real estate.
Well, that's, you know, the investment, the investment deals that are described in there make, hey, yeah, this is an ideal thing.
So, you know, this is, and as Putin acknowledged, he says, hey, it's a framework for discussion.
And that's how Russia is going to treat it.
Now, meanwhile, Putin also said, we're going to accomplish our military objectives because he recognizes the talks to negotiate this, they're going to be months.
You know, I'd say six months minimum.
And during that entire period, Russia may very well finish destroying the Ukrainian army.
But it is to keep the lines of communication open between Washington and Moscow.
Ray, I know you are happy because you've been pushing for this since day one, that the lines of communication are over, are open, not over, open.
But your take on what the Financial Times published and what we all assume is the American 28-point plan.
Well, actually, it was the Ukrainian legislature, Gunshotov, who published it.
And it is real.
And I spent the afternoon while Larry was recuperating, I'm sure, from his arduous trip, reviewing what other commentators are saying about it.
And then finally, Pochin spoke out.
And what he said was, this is a continuation of what we were committed to in the Alaska process.
Whoa.
Now, please remember, the Alaska understandings included a commitment from Trump not to let Zelensky sabotage the way forward.
And ever since August 15th, that's precisely what Zelensky, with the help of those seven dwarfs that assembled in the White House just days after the Alaska summit, what they had been doing.
Now, what's changed?
The Russian onslaught in Ukraine has shown to be inexorable.
They've broken through.
It's all over from a battlefield point of view.
What else?
Oh, there's been a corruption scandal that I believe the U.S. is right behind disclosing all these people very, very close to Zelensky and perhaps it's Zelensky himself.
So it's a ripe time for Witkoff and Dmitriev to come together with not a plan, not a proposal, a working paper, okay, that has key provisions in it, but it's all over the place.
It's inconsistent.
It's contradictory.
It's a draft, okay?
So people have been attacking it as a proposal.
The big thing is that Putin said, yeah, this is what we've been waiting for.
This is a basis.
What did he say exactly?
The U.S. plan for resolving the conflict in Ukraine, he calls it a plan.
It's really a working paper.
It's an updated version of the proposal developed following the meeting of U.S. President Donald Trump in Alaska with President Putin.
So this gives us something to chew on here.
They're going to talk about it.
And meanwhile, Zagolinsky has said, well, you know, I talked to Kier Starmer and that didn't really help very much.
So please, Ukrainians, realize that we are under great pressure.
And I'm going to have to be very careful not to alienate our major sponsor, the United States.
And we have to listen to what President Trump says.
So the diascast, big deal situation on the ground has changed in a way that can't be denied.
The corruption scandal is going to really hurt Zelensky.
Putin is really, really very, very sharp in criticizing Zelensky and just yesterday about not being a legal president of the Ukraine.
Lesky's on his back end, on his back feet, it's going to be very interesting how this evolves.
But this today became real enough when Putin says, Yep, we're going to go with this proposal or plan, he says, where it's really just a working paper worked out by Witkov and Dmitriev, not Lavrov.
But they're all together on this thing.
This was the other part of the plan.
Not Lavrov and probably not Rubio.
I'm reminded Larry and Ray of the famous one-liner from LBJ.
I'm loath to quote him, but I think he was right here.
There's two things you never want to watch as they're being made: sausage and legislation.
This is in the second category because it is a working paper.
Let's listen to President Putin's comments earlier today.
We'll talk a little and then we have the guts of rather emotional comments from President Zelensky.
Chris cut number one.
However, we see that after the negotiations in Alaska, there was a certain pause on the American side.
And we know that this is connected to Ukraine's de facto rejection of the peace settlement plan proposed by President Trump.
I believe that is precisely why a new version appeared.
Essentially, a modernized plan now consisting of 28 points.
We have this text.
We received it through the existing channels of communication with the American administration.
I believe that it too could serve as the basis for a final peace settlement.
Larry, I think that Maria Zarakova was telling you and Pepe and me the truth the other morning.
Well, it was morning here when I asked her if this thing existed and she said no, they just hadn't gotten it yet.
Right, right.
Yeah, you know, and when you go through it, it's, you know, the American authorship of this is clear throughout.
You know, take example, point number 13 or point number 14, that frozen assets will be used in the following way, that 100 billion of Russian frozen assets are going to be invested in U.S.-led reconstruction, et cetera.
Well, Russians aren't going to agree to let the United States take.
But, you know, you forgot to say 100 billion will go to the Kushner Development Company for reconstruction of Ukraine.
I mean, you get that.
Or the really funny one is that Russia is going to be invited to return to the G8.
You know what?
That's like saying that you've got this championship baseball player, let's say Babe Ruth, and you're going to Babe Ruth and said, hey, we're going to invite you to go back to the minor leagues.
Right.
Yeah.
Russia with Brooks right now, they're outperforming the G7 on every measure.
Absolutely.
So, I mean, it's stuff like that.
But as Putin said, hey, we got a framework for discussion.
We're going to sit down and talk.
And this, you know, reportedly Trump has given Zelensky a deadline to sign on by next Thursday, by Thanksgiving.
But the kinds of issues in here that would have to be discussed and negotiated over, I think six months at a minimum.
Right.
Ray, before we run the clip from President Zelensky, sort of a technical question, if I may, about Intel.
Did the Russians know what was in this document before we sent it to them?
Oh, sure.
Yeah, it was publicized by this Ukrainian legislation.
I mean, before that, did they know from the FSB?
Did they know from their Intel sources what was in it?
They knew from Dmitriev, who co-authored the damn thing.
In other words, Dmitriev and Witkov were the co-authors of this thing.
So it's not quite right to say it's an American draft.
There are lots of things in that 28 points, which I pointed out before sort of contradictory and inconsistent.
But there are things like no Ukraine and NATO, no other things that the Russians have demanded.
So it's a mixed bag, but to be very selective and to pick out the more ridiculous things is not quite fair, especially since Putin says, well, it could be a basis for negotiations.
It could be a basis for a final settlement, for God's sake.
Well, yeah, but Ray, look, when you go through it, there are at least eight things that are non-negotiable for Russia.
This is just one clear example.
Number six, the size of the armed forces of Ukraine will be limited to 600,000.
Now, back in March of 22, when Ukraine and Russia negotiated and signed off on tentatively, it was limited to 85,000.
Where did the 600,000 come from?
Is that just a Witkov number?
I think, again, I think it's a U.S. number.
I don't think Dmitriev had as much of an impact on this document as Ray may believe, because there are too many things like that.
There's no way in hell that the Russians are going to agree to allow a Ukrainian army to be eight times larger now than it was in February 2022.
You're treating this as a proposal or a plan.
I'm treating it as talking points or working paper.
It's for negotiation.
That's what it's for.
So you start at 600,000.
Right.
No, you don't get down to 40,000.
You start at 85,000 where the Russians had agreed with Ukraine in March of 2022, particularly with the success that Russia's had on the battlefield since then.
They don't up the number.
What kind of shape is the Ukraine military in now?
Are they on their last legs?
According to the latest estimates by the United States, Russia's recruiting 17,000 new soldiers a month.
They're losing 40,000 a month in casualties, killed and wounded.
And depending upon whether you want to believe the Atlantic Council.
No, no, wait, you're confusing me.
Russia's recruiting how many?
And Ukraine is losing.
Ukraine is recruiting 17,000 new soldiers a month.
And Ukraine is losing 40,000 killed and wounded.
And if you believe the Atlantic Council, there are 20,000 desertions a month.
And if you believe the Institute for the Study of War, again, another pro-Ukrainian source, they're having 40,000 desertions.
Well, do the math.
Yeah, so 43,000 minimum, they're losing a net of 43,000 a month that are not replaceable.
All right.
Here's President Zelensky.
It's rather emotional and he tries to be histrionic, but here he is today.
Cut number four.
Ukrainians, men and women.
In the life of every nation, there comes a moment when everyone needs to speak honestly, calmly, without speculation, rumors, gossip, or anything unnecessary.
Just as things are, just as I always try to speak with you.
Right now is one of the most difficult moments in our history.
Right now, the pressure on Ukraine is one of the hardest.
At this moment, Ukraine may face a very difficult choice.
Either the loss of dignity or the risk of losing a key partner.
Either a complicated 28 points or an extremely harsh winter, the hardest one.
And further risks.
A life without freedom, without dignity, without justice.
And we are expected to trust someone who has already attacked twice.
We do not make loud statements.
We will calmly continue to work with America and all our partners.
There will be a constructive search for solutions with our main partner.
I will present arguments.
I will persuade.
I will offer alternatives.
But we will definitely not give the enemy any reason to say that Ukraine does not want peace, that it is Ukraine disrupting the process, or that Ukraine is not ready for diplomacy.
That will not happen.
Ukraine will work quickly today, on Saturday and Sunday, all of next week, and for as long as it takes 24-7, I will fight to ensure that at least two points of the plan are not overlooked.
This is the dignity and freedom of Ukrainians, because everything else is based on this: our sovereignty, our independence, our land, our people, and the Ukrainian future.
Ray, is there any question in your mind that if the decision is left to President Putin to choose between surrendering land and losing the backing of the United States, he'll choose to keep, as best he can, the land and lose the United States?
You mean President Zelensky?
Zelensky, I beg your pardon.
I meant Zelensky.
I'm sorry.
Yes, thank you.
Yeah, there is doubt in my mind.
In other words, everything's in flux now.
Zelensky himself is in a very parless position.
All his cronies have been accused of stealing millions and millions of dollars that he's lost in the field, and he is personally responsible for not letting his army commanders withdraw those troops in time.
So now they're boxed in, they're in circlement, they're in cauldrons.
Okay, so he's got a deal.
So he's got to say what I get out of that is: look, it wasn't I Zelensky that was sabotaging what was agreed to in Alaska.
And we're going to prove that in the next, we're going to work 24-7.
Well, does that have something to do with the Thanksgiving deadline, for God's sake?
No, he's showing that he can't leave, he can't lose his main, what, his main supporter or main partner, his partner.
And to do that, he's got a deal.
And he deals with a very weak hand.
And, you know, for Trump to say, look, we'd like it by Thanksgiving.
What by Thanksgiving?
I think just an agreement to meet with the Russians and to work this thing out from a position of weakness, but work it out anyway, using as many of those 28 points as seems relevant.
Larry, I want you to build off on what Ray said, but I'd like you to address, please, the question that I put to him using the correct person.
In your view, if Zelensky has to choose between the voluntary surrender of all the land the Russians now control, plus more, according to the 28 points, and losing his best partner, the United States, he will choose to lose his best partner.
Because if he chooses to give up that land, he's not going to make it home tonight.
Well, no, I think he'll stick with the United States.
You go, follow the money.
The land's already lost.
Russia's taken it.
I mean, there's nothing, he does not have the manpower.
He doesn't have the military power to take it back.
You know, this $100 million corruption that's been tossed about, peanuts.
The U.S. Department of Defense is now investigating, based upon my business partner's whistleblowing document, providing actual evidence, bank accounts, et cetera.
They're going after $48 billion that have been diverted, much of it into Zelensky's accounts, but on top of it.
$48 billion with a B?
Yes, billion.
B-I-L-L-I-O-N.
And you want to know why Kayakalis is so keen on keeping this thing going?
Don't tell me she's tipping in.
Most of the money went through banks in Estonia.
Okay?
You can't make this stuff up.
So, you know, the $100 million is chicken feet.
There's something much bigger at play.
And I think Zelensky knows that if he doesn't play ball with the United States, he's going to be more than a dead man.
You know, he can probably keep the Nazis at bay somehow.
If nothing else, have refuge with the United States.
But if he doesn't help make Trump look good, you know, he's done.
Should Mike Huckabee be fired as the U.S. ambassador to Israel for meeting in secret with one of the greatest thieves of American top secrets in the modern era, Jonathan Pollard, Ray McGovern?
Well, you know, I hate to use profane language, so I won't.
But my God, what have we come to when probably the worst filtering of U.S. secrets up to top secret code word was done by Jonathan Pollard.
He served his term.
Now he's welcomed as a hero in Israel.
And for the United States ambassador to meet with this arch spy, I mean, hello, maybe it was to hear his confession or something like that.
But otherwise, I just can't figure it out.
I think Huckabee should be called out on this.
How low is this, Larry?
Well, it's the bottom of the barrel.
You had a nice picture of Ray earlier before he came on air saying that illegals are human.
Well, I think we could make an exception in Huckabee's case.
Well, what it shows is Mike Huckabee is supposed to be loyal first and foremost to America.
And what he's demonstrated is that his loyalty is first and foremost to the Zionist state of Israel and that America comes second.
And look, that's the problem plaguing the Trump's MAGA coalition right now.
Split.
It's not split down the middle.
I think it's split in a way that at least 60, 70% are angry with Trump over this Israel first nonsense.
And having Jonathan Pollard in this position, it's just one more example.
I mean, he called, not only was his information passed to Israel, but at the time, it was also, in my understanding, passed to other governments.
He did genuine damage to U.S. national security.
And here's Mike Huckabee consorting with him, just reminding us, Mike Huckabee doesn't give a hoot about the United States.
He cares about the Zionists.
While the world is focused on the 28-point plan and what's going to happen next in Ukraine, the United States has amassed Ray McGovern 18,000 troops, Army and Marines, in Puerto Rico.
Is the president planning a land invasion?
These are infantry, a land invasion of Venezuela.
If he is, Judge, that's crazy.
That would be Vietnam 0.2 for Trump.
Not only that, but the pretext is not even as good as weapons of mass destruction to invade another country.
The precedent that Trump would set would set him not only versus Venezuela, but Colombia and other nations.
And the idea is that Arubio just wants to do this and Cuba comes next and some of the others.
So I don't know if that's going to happen.
And I would like to say one positive thing, and that is that friends of mine, previous intelligence officers and military folks have come out with an incredible video saying, look, you don't have to obey illegal orders.
That's in the Constitution.
It's in law.
Well, it's in the UCMJ.
It's in the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
That's what I was trying to remember.
Now, that's law.
I mean, that's clear.
They've taken a lot of heat, but my friends and veterans, Veterans for Peace, are issuing a big statement and we're going to do some action now.
And I would refer anybody else who has sworn an oath to the Constitution of the United States, particularly military veterans, to look at the Military Law Task Force website or Veterans for Peace Task Force, because these people have stuck their necks out, need all the support we can give them.
That's my advice.
That's how I feel about it.
You don't have to obey an illegal order.
Larry, back to the 18,000 Marines, because you know Venezuela certainly better than I do, and perhaps better than Ray does, and probably better than almost all Americans do.
What will happen to 18,000 Marines and soldiers, Army infantry, if they land on the beaches of Venezuela?
Well, let's put it in perspective.
Venezuela is two times plus the size of Iraq.
Twice as big as Iraq.
And unlike Iraq, doesn't have a lot of desert.
Got this thing called trees, jungle, mountains, lots of mountains, lots of jungle, lots of heavy growth vegetation.
So in a relatively flat desert area, we put in 130,000 troops to invade Iraq.
And, you know, we were going up against an army that had basically been bought off and was not prepared to defend itself.
It didn't have a lot of good ambush positions.
And so Trump's talking about going into Venezuela with 18,000?
Good luck with that.
As Ray said, you know, Venezuela is the Spanish word for Vietnam.
All right.
That is what Trump is, if he puts in ground forces, they're going to get chewed up.
There are no easy access roads.
And as we learned the hard way in Iraq, I mean, just the open road that was going out to the airport was considered a very dangerous route because they kept planting explosives.
And all along that route, it didn't have, you know, trees and jungle and mountains.
But by God, you got that all over Venezuela.
So this is just, this is a type of insanity.
I don't think, I think one of the reasons we're now three months into this buildup and all we're going to do something is it's all designed to try to scare the Venezuelans, try to put pressure on Maduro to resign.
I'm actually somewhat optimistic that I think Trump's going to ultimately have to make a deal.
And he'll make a deal.
Maduro will agree to some elections.
But if the United States is foolish enough to launch a military operation in Venezuela, we're going to pay, I think, a bigger price than we paid in our invasion of Iraq.
Wow.
Gentlemen, I'll let you go.
It's been a long week, a long day, and this has been a great, great conversation.
We may be the first on air to have such a meaningful conversation and analysis of the 28 points.
I thank the two of you.
Thank you for your double duty, particularly Larry, who's done it for us at odd times of day and with very little sleep this week.
Larry, get a lot of rest this weekend.
We have a short week next week.
I'll look forward to seeing you both on Monday.
And somehow, somewhere, we will get the intelligence community roundtable done by the end of next week, which is Thanksgiving.
All the best, gentlemen.
Have a great weekend.
Thanks, Judge.
Thanks for it.
Coming up Monday, of course, Alistair Crook at 8 in the morning, Ray McGovern at 10, Larry Johnson at 11:30, and some of your other favorites, I believe, Professor Jeffrey Sachs in the afternoon.