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Sept. 16, 2025 - Judging Freedom - Judge Andrew Napolitano
23:58
Ray McGovern : Will Trump Follow Netanyahu's Lead?
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Hi everyone, Judge Andrew Napolitano here for judging freedom.
Today is Monday, September 15th, 2025.
Ray McGovern will be with us in just a moment, but first this.
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Right, McGovern.
Uh welcome here, my dear friend.
I have some questions to ask you about uh Trump and Netanyahu and their unusual deadly uh relationship.
But before we get there, I hope you don't mind me asking you this.
In your career, your life professional work as an intelligence uh agent, and on the basis of the little pieces of information that we know about uh Charlie Kirk's uh murder, do you think that there were forces beyond Robinson, beyond the shooter?
Forces like the intelligence communities of foreign nations or even of the United States that facilitated his death.
Uh yes, I have to entertain that thought, uh Judge, and then lots of circumstantial evidence that would point in that direction.
I mean, you have to believe that uh Oswald and Sir Khan and all those people who were actually the people who killed the Kennedys uh to uh to dismiss the notion that other forces were at play.
Now, one of the things that makes me pause is that Kirk was going pretty far.
He went on Tucker Colson for God's sake, and he talked very lucidly, as though he knew about Russia Gate, and that he knew what a bum rabbit was on Trump.
And he knew, for instance, that uh preparing the American public to hate Russians and hate Putin was very dangerous, kind of thing.
It could get us into a war, could end life on Earth, right?
And he said those things to Tucker.
You know, my God, uh Tucker is dangerous enough these days, but when you have a person with that kind of following uh among young people, well, you know, you really don't want him around the more so that he was coming around on Israel beginning to understand how heinous it is for our country to tolerate arm supply finance, um, genocide and forced starvation.
I know he said that he thought he might have been on a Ukrainian intelligence kill list, but if that is so, if he was on that list, and you and I know people on that list, uh would me too.
Would uh MI6 Mossad CIA have been involved?
Well, you know, I think that kill list is uh, you know, people by lots of folks, including myself.
It's over 200 people.
I don't think the list itself really is consequential.
Uh the motive is consequential.
They need to shut this fellow up, right?
You know, and uh the notion that this young fellow, 22 years old, uh well, you know, that they all pan out.
I don't know, but I'm very suspicious, given the fact that Kirk said all manner of impolite and very dangerous things to set his uh his following uh straight on some of the business about Russia Gate, about uh Ukraine and about Israel.
I mean, you can't get any more live wires than those.
So there was an incentive for people to get rid of them.
Uh, I don't know how it all played out.
I've seen some of the films and some of the people who are analyzing people near him and all that kind of stuff.
I can't figure it out, but let's be open, huh?
Let's not let's not do a warren commission uh retreat here and say, oh no, no, you're a conspiracy theorist if you think that it was someone other uh than uh it's been Oswald that killed Kennedy.
Uh over the weekend in London, there were massive demonstrations.
The London police say 110,000 people, the media says north of a million.
The police always underestimate.
We all know that.
They do that in every country uh in the world.
They were marching against the government, and they were doing something that apparently is uh unlawful in Britain, uh, the birthplace of free speech, but is obviously not unlawful here.
It's considered defiant.
I didn't know this till this morning, talking to Alistair.
They were waving the British flag, hundreds and hundreds, maybe thousands of union jacks being uh woven and unfurled during this enormous uh march.
How do you read all this?
Well, that's one thing I'd never do, Judge, wave the British flag.
Somehow I'm not surprised, and same here.
Now, these folks, I mean, they were really upset, and they were in numbers that no one expected.
I don't know about a million, but I know it was at least twice the size that the police said uh 110,000.
And it was uh as as I read it, pretty spontaneous.
Nobody expected.
What's going on here?
Well, France, uh the government is already filled fallen.
Stomer is pretty much just an administrator of the of the British uh uh bureaucracy to the degree it uh it continues to rule Britain.
He's uh he's on his way out, and the people are making clear that they want to they don't want Stormer, they don't want this kind of government anymore.
And that was very oh look at that.
Wow, you know, so those are the photos.
I'm glad that you you captured those.
I think you know Well, that that is an enormous gathering of humanity.
Yeah.
You know, if uh one way that we used to count crowds is you you you count the number of legs and then you divide by two.
Six jokes, six joke in morning, sorry.
I don't know how you count the crowds there.
There are various techniques.
You count a portion and then figure out how many portions there are.
To me, it looks like a million people, but like most Americans, I'm not very astute at counting heads.
Whatever it is, it's a number unprecedented in the modern era uh in Great Britain, and as you say, it's very telling.
Germany, France, Great Britain, the governments are of enormous unpopularity, and they're being seriously challenged from the right, and these challenges are open public and notorious.
As these challenges are going on, President Trump makes a statement, Chris, if you want to put that uh full screen up, that he's going To impose serious sanctions on Russia.
I don't know what sanctions he can impose that Joe Biden didn't already impose.
I'm ready to do major sanctions on Russia, one quote, all NATO nations have agreed and started to do the same thing, and when all NATO nations stop buying oil from Russia.
Well, this is this is ridiculous.
Turkey's not going to stop.
Hungary's not going to stop.
They're in NATO.
They're never going to agree.
It almost sounds as if he made this statement to please Lindsey Graham and Tom Cotton, but has no ability to carry it out.
Well, yeah, I think to undercut those people.
In other words, uh, isn't it a plausible argument?
Okay, um, NATO, you're so hot on sanctions against Russia and China.
Uh, join us.
Uh we're good we're ready, we're ready to go, says Trump.
Just uh make sure that you join us.
Uh that's economic suicide.
Okay.
Now, the sanctions themselves have played out in such a way that they're ineffectual.
The economists advising Trump, my God, you know.
They used to make a joke about economists.
Uh what's an economist?
And the answer was uh it's a uh it's an accountant without the sense of humor.
Well, no, an economist is uh an accountant without the ability to do math, for God's sake, okay?
Sanctions were never a good idea, and especially not for Western Europe.
So here is Trump saying, look, I'm ready to go when you are, but you know, you NATO, NATO, includes Turkey and all the others.
Like, you people have been buying Russian oil.
You know that.
I know that.
You better stop, and they can't stop.
So what's the this is a gambit.
This is proof positive, in my view, that Trump wants out of Ukraine, that these people aren't gonna do that, and he's gonna turn to the Lindsey Graham of this world and say, look, you know, why do you want us to throw more money and more time?
I'm losing my patience when the Europeans won't do this and they're right on the scene.
So there are all kinds of indications that Trump wants out.
I think he will get out.
It's a matter of uh whether he can make this appear to be a negotiated deal with the Russians or not.
Either way, the Russians win, and NATO is uh left foundering without any economic advantage, no matter which way the wind blows.
Here's the president uh over the weekend, Chris cut number eight.
Europe is my friends, but they're buying oil from Russia.
So we can't be expected to be the only ones that are you know full, full bore.
Europe is buying oil from Russia.
I don't want them to buy oil.
And the sanctions that are putting that they're putting on are not tough enough.
And I'm willing to do sanctions, but they're gonna have to toughen up their sanctions commensurate with what I'm doing.
What more sanctions can he possibly put on?
The only thing he can do uh is maybe steal the uh money uh that Russia uh foolishly deposited in American banks.
It's about 350 billion.
The vast majority of it is in European banks, or he could try and impose secondary sanctions like he did on India.
How did that work out?
But in terms of the actual uh direct sanctions on Russia, I don't know what else he could possibly sanction other than things that we like minerals that we absolutely need that would cause more harm to us uh than uh than to Russia.
Well, uh, Judge, this is a gambit, okay?
There aren't going to be more sanctions on Russia because there are none to be had.
Uh the Europeans can try to do more, but they they can't support their economy without some Russian oil, some Russian gas, and Turkey would just fall tomorrow, we're deprived of that access.
So it's it's uh it's a fraud to suggest this is a serious initiative.
Um, with respect to those uh 300 billion or so in European banks, most of those are in Belgium, and the Belgian prime minister said now it's not a good idea, not a good idea for Belgium to be the scene of this kind of stealth, this kind of robbery.
So even that is not the easily tapped.
Uh, there's no way out for the Europeans.
Uh They're trying to keep the U.S. in.
Witness that charade about those dummy drones, dummy polls talking about dummy drones and contradicting Trump, which he doesn't much like.
I mean, they try to get the U.S. in.
Trump is a little bit too smart for that.
On the other hand, you see people advising Trump that really don't know which which end is up and haven't learned anything for the last five years.
And those are the people who say, look, read the sanctions on China, you'll break them away from Russia.
There'll be trouble between Russia and China.
Give me a break.
Russia and China joined together at the hip.
There's no manner of sanctions that can separate them.
And the fault is really the United States foreign policy, which has driven the two together.
And now, as you point out, India as well.
You have the vast majority of the world's population against the West.
The Europeans are going to come around when they finally realize that, oh, this Trump is serious.
He's getting out of here.
We better make the best deal we can.
Is it possible that the United States, MI6, CIA did not know in advance of the Israeli uh attack on a residential neighborhood in Doha last week?
Well, I think the real question is whether the president, our President Trump knew about it.
Um you mean the president personally as opposed to the.
In other words, uh I think uh Scott's arguments are compelling, and so are Alistair's.
Uh I see many uh uh slip between cup and lip, especially in this very disorganized administration.
So I think the the betting is probably safe that he did know, but I'm not convinced he did know.
And what's worse?
I don't know what's worse.
I mean, Scott's argument is the Israeli planes had to fly over Iraqi airspace, which we control.
The Israeli planes had to enter Qatar airspace, which we control.
Uh that would not have happened without our express uh permission or without the airplanes being shot down.
They weren't shot down, therefore we gave the express permission.
Question would uh Rubio um uh the CIA and Heg Seth pull this off without telling their boss?
I think that's possible.
I don't think it's probable, but I think you have to leave that that possibility open.
After all, you know, there is this thing as this thing called uh plausible deniability.
Uh sometimes the president don't exactly want to know some of the things you're gonna do.
The CIA and the military are are very closely aligned there in that part of the world.
So yeah, uh it's not that I'm trying to exculpate Trump.
I mean, it's worse in some respects if he didn't know.
But you know, this is part and parcel of this brutality that has existed not only there, but as you point out in that article today in consortium news in our country as well.
There used to be due process.
There used to be respect for the Constitution as to who can kill people abroad or even domestically.
There isn't anymore.
And the Israelis have given us really good example on that, haven't they?
Yes, they have.
What is the um status of the large uh flotilla slowly attempting to make its way toward Gaza?
And what kind of danger are the people unarmed on the flotilla in?
They're in great danger, uh Judge.
I know that I was on the uh U.S. boat to Gaza in 2011.
We were spared the tender mercies of the Israeli Navy because Obama, Obama leaned on the Greeks so hard.
Hey, you Greeks, you want that IMF loan or bail out your economy.
Don't let the U.S. boat to Gaza Get out of Athens.
But it's U.S. registered.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
I don't care.
Keep it.
So we were not.
We went anyway.
We got nine miles out of out of port, and we turned back by the Greek Coast Guard who is apologetic.
You know, anyhow, these people are in real danger.
They're 50, 50 such boats, okay?
A lot of them large sailboats, some smaller, uh, from 40 countries.
Now, they're in Tunis right now, or they're on the rendezvousing there.
So I think there'll be another several days before they actually set sail for Gaza.
But my God, this is going to be a real symbolic uh event.
Uh will they succeed in getting to Gaza?
Probably not, but will they be shot up by the Israelis?
Probably so.
Okay.
Now, people say, oh, so this is quicksodic.
No, it's not quicksodic.
You do these things because it's the right thing to do.
Now the results, they're not they're not unimportant, but they're secondary to the goodness of the act.
These good folks are putting their lives online.
We should support them and not ridicule them for being feckless or you know not successful in our terms of the word.
Was your life threatened?
Well, they told us, uh, they told a National Security Council contact of mine told me that if we went uh if I went on this uh on this US ship to Gaza, uh, that the Trump administration that the Obama administration were just as see just as uh just as soon see dead Americans come back on in coffins as to see anything else happen.
Uh we think Obama tried to persuade Netanyahu not to shoot us up, but apparently he failed because then he had to lean on the Greeks.
Well, inspect that ship again.
And you know where they found, Judge?
They found a defect in our air conditioning system.
So Arch Captain went out anyway.
So we were spared what happened the year before when 10 people were killed on the Mavi Mamara, the Turkish ship.
Uh, but you know, that small colony, small Salais, we wanted to get that those cards and letters and other supplies to Gaza just to make the point.
And luckily we were spared the worst, but I don't know what's going to happen.
You know, just at the time that the U.S. Security Council is grappling with this question, not only the Security Council, but the General Assembly, I mean, will the Israelis uh act in in the way they usually do, and either surround or bomb or strafe or whatever these ships.
I don't know.
I wouldn't put it past them.
And if that happened, how the General Assembly would react, would it unite for peace and stop the genocide of the forced starvation?
Well, that might help in a strange kind of way.
You know, a tenth of the Palestinian people by admission of the Israeli former chief of staff, a tenth, 210,000, 210,000 uh Israeli um Palestinians have either perished or been severely wounded since the war started.
That's a tenth of the Palestinian population.
How long are we gonna wait for the next tenth to be done in?
So it's urgent, and these people going on the flotilla.
I I applaud them.
I wish I were young enough to be with them, uh, but they're they're putting their lives on the line to make a make a point saying, look, this has got to stop.
And if the Israelis do them harm, I hope the world will react in an appropriate way.
You know, there have been people before who have uh ventured out and risked their whole lives uh for a bigger purpose.
And as I say, um the good is worth doing because it's good.
Uh results, results are not unimportant, but they're secondary to the goodness of the act.
Who's the tail and who's the dog?
Does Trump lead Netanyahu, or does Netanyahu lead Trump?
Well, uh, it seems to me, and I've always thought that Israel has Exerted and still exerted disproportionate influence over our foreign policy.
I've seen it up close for those 27 years I was at the CIA and two years in the Army.
So, you know, it seems to me that this inordinate influence is what prevails.
Why it prevails?
Well, there's a long history to it.
Is it prevailing now?
Less so, less so.
The US public.
Um before Netanyahu used to brag that 80% of the American people support us no matter what we do.
It's absurd.
End quote from Netanyahu.
Well, it ain't even 50% anymore.
But Trump, you know, as I've said before, I think they have a lot of dirty stuff on Trump to include possible connections with the Epstein stuff.
And, you know, that makes this heinousness in Gaza sort of heinous squared, in my view.
Ray McGovern, thank you very much, my dear friend.
Thanks for accommodating my schedule, and we'll look forward to seeing you at the end of the week.
With that youngster Larry Johnson.
Most welcome, Judge.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Larry will be with us at 5:30 this afternoon.
But before Larry, a very important conversation with Max Blumenthal.
Who was out to get Charlie Kirk and why?
Max Blumenthal here at four o'clock today.
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