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July 31, 2025 - Judging Freedom - Judge Andrew Napolitano
22:27
COL. Lawrence Wilkerson : Is NATO Worth Saving?
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Hi, everyone.
Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom.
Today is Thursday, July 31st, 2025.
Our dear friend Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson joins us now.
Colonel Larry, a pleasure, my friend.
I missed you the past couple of weeks.
The audience missed you.
I missed you.
My team misses you.
And we're very happy that we're back together.
Welcome back to the show.
And thank you for accommodating my schedule.
Thank you.
Before I ask you about NATO and if it's worth saving, I do need to ask you about recent events in the U.S. and Europe.
President Trump on Monday, while seated next to British Prime Minister Starmer at one of Trump's golf courses in Scotland, issued a threat to President Putin.
By the way, Senator Lindsey Graham has threatened President Putin.
We'll play that clip.
General Christopher Donahue has threatened President Putin.
We'll play that clip.
But for now, just President Trump.
I don't want to play the clip.
It's too long.
But basically, he said, if the war isn't over, he means the special military operation in Ukraine, or a ceasefire entered into, within 10 or 12 days, I will impose secondary sanctions on Russia.
So if India buys oil from Russia and then tries to sell products to the United States, there'll be a 50 or 100% tariff on those products.
He since has changed the 10 to 12 days, which was originally 50, down to five or six, because he says in India, Russia's day of doom is Saturday.
Does this kind of threat change the military plans of the Kremlin?
I think not.
And I don't think it really means anything to the Kremlin, or for that matter, to Modi or anybody else that it might indirectly or directly affect.
We're a feckless country right now, Judge.
I was thinking the other day that a better acronym for this three-ring circus in Washington than MAGA would be DAMN, which would stand for Destroy America Now.
That's a better description of what is happening, both domestically and internationally.
And that's all I can see that we're headed towards.
We're headed towards a real collapse in both areas, domestic and international.
And we're being led there purposefully, it looks like to me.
Now, I don't know if it's the president doing that.
I suspect highly, strongly, that it's the billionaires behind him who are directing this show and not Donald Trump.
He's just their mouthpiece from time to time.
But it's increasingly clear to me that we're on a terrible trajectory in terms of our national existence.
So you and I were, well, you are the former chief of staff for the one-time chief diplomat of the United States.
So when I ask you about the rules and customs of diplomacy, you know of what you speak.
But you and I were harshly critical of Secretary Blinken and President Biden for their refusal to communicate with President Putin or Foreign Minister Lavrov.
Now we have the other extreme.
Now we have a president who publicly threatens President Putin.
Do we still have diplomacy?
Not at all.
And I must point out that Biden did that from time to time, too, in egregious fashion.
Yes, yes, you're right.
He did.
He called Putin all kinds of names.
You're right.
You're right.
But this isn't diplomacy.
Diplomacy is a very, very fine instrument.
And in the hands of masters, like I remember Bryn Skokroff and Jim Baker and a host of others I could name.
In the hands of masters, it is a scalpel, a tool that can be used very carefully and very delicately to achieve your purposes and without bloodshed.
We simply do not know how to do that anymore, Judge.
We have lost that talent and skill or we've spurned it.
I fear both, and we are suffering as a result.
What do you think the Kremlin thinks when Trump makes these threats?
50 days, 10 days, six days, or else?
I want to say with others, some of whom I've watched on your show, that it watches off their back like water off a duck.
But I think I agree with that in the sense of the immediate remarks and the immediate effect.
But I think they're very worried.
I think from Modi to Xi Jinping to almost any leader in the world, and look to Ignacio de Silva Lula in Brazil for the things he's doing right now.
He's a very astute man and he's a good leader.
And he's backing away almost wholesalely now from the United States, which is a monumental move for Brazil to do.
But the reason he's doing it is because like Putin, like Xi Jinping, like Modi, like other leaders in the world, with the possible exception of Europe, where braindead people rule, they're afraid because they know we are possessed still of residual power that can do them great harm, both economic and military.
And they're very worried.
And I think Putin and Xi Jinping are worried in that sense too, because they know we have 6,000 nuclear warheads.
I'm glad you mentioned China, Brazil, because it leads us into our conversation about BRICS.
Now, listen to this really.
I got to editorialize a little, but I think you'll agree.
But you want to guess.
Thank you.
Absurd comments by Senator Graham Claiming that we're going to whoop Putin's ass.
I'm quoting the senator.
I don't usually speak that way on air, but I'm quoting somebody else.
Chris Cutton, number one.
Putin, your turn is coming.
You know, Donald Trump is the Scotty Shuffler of American politics and foreign diplomacy, and he's about to put a whooping on your ass.
What's going to happen here is that Trump is going to impose tariffs on people that buy Russian oil.
China, India, and Brazil, those three countries buy about 80% of cheap Russian oil.
That's what keeps Putin's war machine going.
So President Trump's going to put 100% tariff on all those countries, punishing them for helping Putin.
Putin can live through sanctions.
He could give a damn about Russian soldiers.
But China, India, and Brazil, they're about to face a choice between the American economy or helping Putin.
And I think they're going to come pick the American economy.
That's a perfect example, Judge.
Lindsey Graham wouldn't know diplomacy if it was a flower sticking up in a pool of porridge.
Old Lindsay don't know nothing about how to kick people's ass.
And that, you know, just listen to what he said.
Just listen to what currency and on what system, financial or otherwise, is all this going to happen, Lindsay.
Do you realize that the world is marshaling its economic and trade power to escape America's hole that is demonstrated almost every day by sanctions?
Do you realize that that's happening, Lindsay?
Where have you been?
Are you stuck in a South Carolina boondock?
Well, this is an example of a person who gets to whisper into the president's ear when he sits next to him on the golf carts, which, as we know, happens all the time.
This is the type of advice that Donald Trump is getting.
Donald Trump, a man without deep thoughts or ideological understanding of the realism, the legitimate need for each sovereign country to be secure.
He takes this advice and what results is the type of absurd statement like we saw seated next to Prime Minister Starmer.
I've got to play one more of these for you now.
Let me just make one comment, Judge.
Sure.
I would say that Donald Trump is doing exactly what you just described, and he's listening to Lindsay as the valid, genuine voice of his core base, and that's falling apart.
I wonder if he's even listening to Secretary Rubio and Secretary Hegseth.
I argued that Hegseth was not qualified, but the Hegseth that I know is far brighter and far more cautious than the words that come out of the president's mouth.
I think you're right.
I think General Donahue and his remarks about Kaleningrad are proof positive of that.
I can't believe that Hegseth authorized those remarks.
Well, I'm going to play that right now.
And the question to you was going to be, could a statement like this have been made, which threatens American troops on the ground in Russia without the express approval of the Secretary of State or the President of the United States?
Before you answer, we'll watch this together.
Cut number 16.
If you look at Kalinograd, you can argue back and forth, but it's about 47 miles wide, surrounded by NATO on all sides.
There's absolutely no reason why that A2AD bubble to deter Russia, we cannot take that down from the ground in a timeframe that is unheard of and faster than we've ever been able to do.
We've already planned that.
We've already developed it.
This 100,000 troops, American troops under his command in Europe and Africa.
How could he have made a comment like that without Hexeth or Trump approving?
Anything could happen in this administration, Judge, but let me just say this.
That guy's career, that guy's background is all airborne.
So I think of market garden the moment I hear him say that.
We could just take it in a moment or two.
And I got news for him.
It's not just surrounded by Lithuania and Poland and the corridor that goes through Lithuania, highway and rail that is under an agreement with the Russians for use.
It's also got the Baltic.
And the Baltic does not belong to you.
And the Baltic is a serious piece of water that the Russians will fight you to the death over.
So you're just as stupid as that general who in Pristina, Kosovo, under Wes Clark's guidance at the time, said he wasn't going to let the Russians land.
And then the British general in charge overall in Pristina said, are you kidding me?
You're not about to do that and start World War III.
Well, Donahue, you're about to start World War III.
Did you notice he said on the ground, he's talking about American boots on the ground and some sort of rapid movement that he says they've rehearsed and planned for?
Well, he's true.
Did you know, does the public know that American troops in Europe have rehearsed and planned for a ground invasion of Russia?
He's probably talking about a massive airborne invasion too, because that's where he comes from, 18th Air Morgan Commander and so forth, Special Operations Forces.
Judge, we did this to ourselves.
We did this to ourselves.
We reached in and began to promote special operators just as if they were all part of the same military.
And we put stars on people that should never have had stars on their shoulders.
This is the man totally responsible in many respects for the abysmal departure from Afghanistan and all the deaths that occurred.
This is the man, and there's no accountability for him.
Just like all these other generals who fail again and again and again, there's no accountability.
How much longer do you think President Trump, because the legislation signed in the Biden era is for the aid to Ukraine subject to The president.
How much longer do you think President Trump will continue to supply Ukraine?
He seems to be supplying it now at the same or greater rate than President Biden was.
I can't distinguish whether the rates are different or not, but I can distinguish the fact that what's happening on the battlefield is in the next seven weeks or so, the Ukrainian military is going to be utterly and completely destroyed, which is the objective of the special military operation.
My question is, where do we go from there?
What does Donald Trump do when Zelensky's been assassinated or has disappeared with his billions or some other untoward event has happened with regard to the political situation at Kiev and Ukraine in general?
And the Russians are totally triumphant and if they wanted to, could take the whole damn country.
What are we going to do then?
Is Ukraine lost already?
Yes.
Yes.
You don't hesitate for a moment in answering that.
Not at all.
Not at all.
All right.
Switching gears.
Do you perceive a growing worldwide consensus that the Israelis are engaged in genocide and using starvation as a tool with which to bring about the destruction of the Palestinian people?
I do.
And it's not just Tony Aguilar, for example, whose testimony is just gut-wrenching.
And we're getting ready to get the Eisenhower Media Network behind him and what he's trying to do to spread the word.
I've seen other things than Aguilar's testimony, and I've seen it from military people of the United States, as well as Britain.
And they're absolutely right about what's happening over there.
Either Netanyahu is just completely blocked out from the real situation by his IDF generals and colonels, or he's lying through his teeth.
I suspect the latter.
When he says there is no starvation going on, he is showing himself as either an absolute idiot who's totally out of contact with the battlefield or complicit.
And I think the latter.
Starvation is going on.
It is a weapon of war for Bibi Netanyahu.
Here he is, cut number 12, Chris.
Israel has presented as though we are applying a campaign of starvation in Gaza.
What a bold-faced lie.
There is no policy of starvation in Gaza, and there is no starvation in Gaza.
We've enabled the amount required by international law to come in.
There are hundreds and hundreds of trucks loaded with tons.
So far, we've supplied 1.9 million tons of food since the beginning of the world.
Almost 2 million tons.
And now we have hundreds of trucks that are waiting on the Gazan side of the Kern Shalom crossing.
And it's international organizations, some of them very well intended.
And it's the UN, too.
Food that they purchased.
And we said, go ahead, deliver it.
And all of this happened within the last 128 to 150 hours.
So some of that he said is true, but it's really a day late to dollar short.
And he's got to mention the fact that in the process of doing this over the last several months, his people have been killing 50 to 150 Palestinians a day as they came forward to get the food and the water.
Never heard of anything like this in recorded history.
The slaughter and mass murder of innocent people as they stand online starving, waiting for food.
This is a very, very dangerous man.
I mean, you've told us that, and it's rather obvious.
What will it take for Donald Trump to recognize that Trump has said he believes there's starvation and the United States has sent aid there?
And oh, why haven't the Palestinian people thanked us?
Why haven't the Palestinian people thanked you?
You funded and financed the genocide being waged against them, Donald Trump.
And oh, by the way, when I went up there to get my water and my food and I was starving and dying of thirst, I watched my friends shot in the testicles and the arms and the head all around me because the IDF was taking target practice on various body parts as we came up to get the food.
Well, where does this go from here, Colonel?
Disaster further, I suspect.
And what we're looking at, Judge, and I don't mean to denigrate what's happening in Gaza or the West Bank just as badly almost, but what we're looking at is Netanyahu wants to go back to war with Iran, and he is determined to go back to war with Iran because he sees that as the only salvation over the next six, seven months of his administration, and ultimately the only salvation of Israel's posture in the Levant.
And what he's going to do by doing that, opening another war against Iran, expecting the United States to come in at least partially, I'm sure he wish we'd come in Ol Hog, is destroy his country, destroy it irretrievably.
Here's, but I agree with you.
I believe that the Epstein saga will get worse for the president.
And as you and I have said many times, when all else fails, they take you to war and the U.S. will start a war against Iran.
But before we get there, here's somebody else who's a dollar short and a day late, but he's right in what he finally is saying.
Chris, cut number 15.
Senator, when you hear the Israeli prime minister saying there's no starvation happening in Gaza, what?
Do you believe he's lying?
Of course he's lying.
He is a disgusting liar.
Israel had a right to defend itself from the terrible Hamas attack.
But I think Everybody understands that in the last two and a half years, they have been waging a brutal, horrific, almost unprecedented type of war, not just against Hamas, but against the Palestinian people.
So you've got an area, territory there of 2.2 million people.
They have already killed 60,000.
They have injured 140,000, most of whom are women, children, and the elderly.
They have virtually completely destroyed the entire infrastructure of Gaza, virtually all of the schools, the healthcare system, over 70% of the housing, the water system.
And now, as you mentioned, over the last period of time, they have prevented humanitarian aid coming in.
And there is now mass malnutrition and children are starving to death.
The only thing he's wrong about, Judge, and it's a trifling matter, if you will, is that we have done topographical analysis of the terrain and used all the factors we use for casualty determination.
It's over 200,000.
50% of whom are women and children.
Wow, I got to ask you about NATO, Colonel.
Why do you think the EU caved to Trump's 15% tariffs?
I think they feel they have no choice and that they can ride it out and that in any event, his material nature with regard to even these issues like tariffs is such that things will change tomorrow or the next day or the next.
Is NATO worth saving, Colonel?
No, it is not.
It really isn't.
I thought for a while there that we could shift it into, as Powell wanted to do, a European security identity that would eventually take over its own defense and security with our nuclear umbrella over them, of course.
But I don't anymore.
I think it's so tainted now and so identified as it is with deception and deceit and murder that no one will accept it on, quote, the other side, unquote.
And that's an essential thing if you're going to build a security, a new European security architecture and replace NATO.
So I don't know what's going to happen.
We're probably going to go back into a Europe that looks a lot like the 1930s Europe.
Wow.
And we know what happened then.
Colonel Wilkerson, I have to run.
Always a pleasure, my dear friend.
I could talk to you all afternoon, but thank you very much for your time and for your thoughts.
We'll look forward to seeing you again next week.
Surely.
And don't run too hard because like me, you'll get out of breath.
God love you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Coming up at three o'clock this afternoon, Professor John Mearsheimer.
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