All Episodes
Previous Next
June 9, 2025 - Judging Freedom - Judge Andrew Napolitano
24:16
Larry Johnson : LIVE FROM MOSCOW: What the Russians Are Thinking.
| Copy link to current segment

Time Text
Hi, everyone.
Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom.
Today is Monday, June 9th, 2025.
Larry Johnson joins us here from Moscow.
Larry, a pleasure.
I have a lot of questions for you, but first to breaking news.
You were in a position today where you got to interrogate the foreign minister of Russia, Sergei Lavrov.
What did you ask him and what did he tell you?
Well, I asked him specifically what the diplomatic challenges Russia faces now that it's elevating from a special military operation to a counterterrorism operation.
And he said three times, he said, I agree with you, that what this means for Russia is that they're going to escalate the nature of the targets that they attack in Ukraine.
They're now very likely to go after People like Zelensky, Budnoff, the head of military intelligence, as well as Sirsky, the head of the military.
They take very seriously, even though they haven't said a lot in public about it.
And I know there's a bit of a dispute between Alistair and Ray McGovern, with enormous respect for both.
But just the fact that the Russians have not commented extensively on those attacks on the airfields.
Doesn't mean they don't take it seriously.
They take it very seriously.
This has really been a tipping point for them.
And so Lavrov, I was sort of gratified.
He said three times, no, I agree with you.
He also said he missed seeing you.
I said, the judge is sorry he couldn't make the trip, and I explained why, and he said he missed seeing you.
Oh, thank you.
That's very gratifying to hear and to know.
Did he give you his understanding of the nature and extent of the damages?
This is the point of dispute here.
Was it 41 planes destroyed, as Western media claims?
Or was it a pinprick, as Alistair says?
Yeah, no, I think Alistair's correct.
It was really much more of a pinprick.
But it's not so much how much damage was done.
It was the symbolism of it, because Russia recognizes.
That this kind of attack could not have been carried out by Ukraine on its own.
That Ukraine had assistance from Western intelligence.
Whether that was British and or American, I've not heard any sort of definitive claims.
But it clearly was, this crossed a red line with Russia.
And, you know, the last time you and I were here in March, you know, we hardly ever saw any Any kind of armed military or police presence on the street.
We didn't even see street cops.
Right.
Yesterday when I pulled up in front of the hotel that we stayed at, there were four teams of two men with automatic weapons out front in uniform.
So I don't know if there was somebody, some high official here or not, but it just shows that the level of readiness on the part of Russia dealing with potential terrorist threats.
It's significantly elevated compared to what it was three months ago.
Is the Russian government expecting attacks on civilians?
Well, that's all Ukraine has been doing.
They're not attacking military targets.
You know, it would be one thing if they were going after strictly the strategic bombers on military basis.
But, you know, the two attacks in Kursk.
And then in Bryansk, when they blew up the bridge so that it would definitely hit a civilian passenger train, clearly civilian.
Now, as I pointed out before, you know, the Ukrainians have been behind much more heinous terrorist attacks back in March of 2024 with the attack on Krokus city center.
They killed over 135 people, wounded more than 340.
So, you know, this is...
It's something that, you know, and I was able to eat some popcorn and have some tea last night with our friend Pepe Escobar.
And we reviewed sort of the bidding process.
And, you know, definitely the Russians have been, the Russian leadership of Putin have been enraged by this.
And I actually, you know, tonight at an extended dinner, I had a chance to chat with one of, The former Russian ambassadors to Britain.
And, you know, he went on at length about the significance of this.
So this is something that's really hit home with the Russians.
They're taking very seriously.
But they're also hopeful that Donald Trump represents a change in the policy of the United States.
Because heretofore, you know, I was here in December of 2023, and I spoke with a...
And Deputy Foreign Minister Rubkoff said, "Hey, we don't have anybody to talk to." Now they have somebody to talk to.
I received a note of clarification from John Helmer today via my friend Nima.
And Helmer indicated that when Lavrov called Marco Rubio, it was last Sunday evening around 8:00 p.m.
So, you know, he wasn't, you know, Lavrov wasn't sitting around in his jammies drinking a scotch in the middle of the night trying to figure out what to do.
But the fact that he did call Rubio and had someone pick up the phone on the other end, but also was able to deliver a very direct message.
You know, as you know from your own experience, Lavrov is a very impressive individual.
Doesn't need talking points.
Doesn't need notes.
He speaks from his mind, from his heart.
Very, very gifted diplomat.
You are moving with, I think we could say, Russian elites this week.
Do you have a finger?
Maybe all those armed guards in front of your hotel are there for the person I'm speaking to now.
But do you have your finger on the pulse of average Muscovites about the war?
And if so, is there any difference now in June from when you and I were there two months ago in March?
Yeah.
This is a forum on the future looking 25 years ahead.
I can't tell you how gratifying it is to be approached by 20-year-olds, 23-year-olds.
You know, I'll call them boys and girls.
I mean, they're young men, young women, but they are, you know, number one, they watch you, which is, you know, oh, I see you on the judge.
I feel like I should be your press agent.
I don't want to be getting a commissioner, brother.
You're doing a great job.
But, you know, they want their picture taken, and then we start talking.
You know, it's so gratifying to deal with these young people.
And there's not any dissension directed at Putin.
And they're fully on board with what Russia is doing.
In some ways, they're looking for reassurance that what they're doing is the right thing for the right reasons.
Is there fear?
That the drones might hit them?
No, not really.
No.
Is there a confidence that the Russian air defenses will protect the people of Moscow?
Well, when I was flying in yesterday to Dometevovo Airport, which is to the south of Moscow, you begin to realize how big Russia is.
I mean, even if Ukraine could launch 500 drones into the Moscow area, it's only a pinprick.
Moscow is such a huge expanse.
What's fascinating is I'm here with Elon Musk's father, who is quite a character, a wonderful man.
He is the rock star, people lining up to get their photographs with him.
And our friend George Galloway is here as well.
And I met George and his wife and his son.
And so, you know, again, people were lamenting that Judge Napolitano was not here to partake in this, but I understand why you could not afford to do so.
But, you know, even with being with these luminaries, still meeting these average people that have attended, you know, students at Moscow University.
There was actually a woman.
She lives in California, but she's Russian, and she actually came to attend.
And then the Italian couple that showed up looking for you and berating me, where's Judge Napolitano?
I said, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
Did they berate you in English or Italian?
Yes, both, both.
What is your view, Larry, of the Russian view, of the Kremlin's view, of President Trump's denials that the U.S. didn't know about this drone attack before it happened?
Do they think that's credible or just one of Donald Trump's acts?
Yeah, I think it's more of Donald Trump's acts.
The key point is, and in fact, I mentioned this with Foreign Minister Lavrov.
You know, when I was here in December of 2023, that was the first time I met Deputy Foreign Minister Ripoff.
And the Deputy Foreign Minister said at the time, we don't have anybody to talk to.
Now, Lavrov acknowledged, hey, thank God we now have someone to talk to.
I can talk to Marco Rubio.
He picks up the phone, we talk.
And he went through actually in some detail about his conversation.
When President Trump says to President Putin, the U.S. didn't know about this, doesn't the FSB, the Russian intelligence, know whether or not Trump is telling the truth?
Yeah, well, they put that aside so that Trump was getting the mushroom treatment, you know, kept in the dark, being fed manure.
They understand that it's likely that the CIA was actively involved.
Or at least knew and didn't say anything up the chain of command.
But sometimes that's the way covert actions occur, where you allow your principal to have plausible deniability.
But Trump was sincere and insistent.
And I guarantee you, the conversation with Putin was very tough.
Putin, when he talked to Donald Trump, was enraged.
He was very angry.
And the anger that he had conveyed when he spoke To his National Security Council, which was broadcast across Russia, was also conveyed to Donald Trump.
And I think that's why you saw Trump subsequently come out and say, yeah, Putin was very strong about this, that they're going to retaliate and Ukraine's going to pay a price.
Who rode this boat?
Was it MI6 or CIA?
The Ukrainians couldn't have done it alone, Larry.
You've told us that several times.
Yeah, I don't think they did this alone.
And, you know, let's say that they did plan it alone, but I guarantee you with MI6 officers and CIA officers there on sea, they absolutely knew about it.
Now, were they instructed to put that into a message and send it back to headquarters and say, hey, heads up, they're getting ready to do this?
Maybe not, but this goes to the heart of the matter that the
And I think Alistair Crook's observations on this have been entirely spot on in terms of his legitimate concern about how concerned the Russians, you know, I know Ray, our brother Ray, The Russians haven't said much about this, but that shouldn't be interpreted to mean they don't care, because what I heard from Lavrov today, they definitely do care.
It definitely left an impression when it's something that they're trying to address.
When Foreign Minister Lavrov said to you three times, I agree with you, with precisely what was he agreeing with you on?
That I said that this represented a shift.
In Russia's diplomatic and military strategy.
I've noted that, unlike the United States, where oftentimes our diplomatic strategy does not marry up with our military strategy.
The right hand doesn't always know what the left hand is doing.
In Russia, the right hand and left hand are always joined together.
And the diplomatic strategy always reflects the military strategy.
And so in that regard, my comment was, as I'm reading this, this represents a significant change from Russia's strategy of conducting a special military operation to conducting a counterterrorism operation.
Now, some in the West, you're just playing with words.
But with the Russians, words matter.
They are very precise.
They're very legalistic.
And in shifting that, Putin had to seek specific permission now under using it as a counterterrorism operation to target senior officials in the Ukrainian government, which means Zelensky, Budinov, the head of military intelligence, and Sersky, the head of the military.
They are now on the target line.
And do you believe...
Because if Zelensky is eliminated, the war will be over, will it not?
Well, not necessarily over, but it will be on its way to over.
Previously, Zelensky had secured assurances from the Israeli officials certifying that the Russians weren't going to kill him.
That's changed now.
Because of what the Russians now defining as a counter-terrorism operation.
And remember, this goes back to 1999.
On September 7th, the Second Chechen War started.
August 7th, I mean.
And August 9th, Vladimir Putin was installed as Prime Minister because of the start of the Second Chechen War, which was an Islamic insurgency designed to destroy Russia.
It went on for 10 years.
And the Russians fought it.
It was a brutal war.
And they ended up killing a lot of these Islamic leaders within Chechnya.
But, you know, now today, you've got Chechnya firmly in the Russian camp with people like Apten al-Laudi, who is a senior Chechen commander and a true hero within the Russian army.
So, you know, Putin's been through this before.
Did you get a chance to ask, this is a little ridiculous, but I have to ask you, to ask Foreign Minister Lavrov what he thinks of Lindsey Graham and Richard Blumenthal patting on the back?
Actually, I didn't ask him, but he commented on that in the course.
There were several, you know, a group of us.
I got to ask the first question.
I was fortunate in that.
But I think it was in response to a question from George Galloway.
That he commented on it, and just noting the sort of the absurdity and insanity of it, that they're counting more on Donald Trump to overrule the likes of Graham and his counterpart from Connecticut, Blumenthal, and to act more rationally.
They still see Donald Trump as somebody that they can talk to.
Trump so far has not disabused them of that notion.
So, a newspaper called the Hindustan Times reports, former Ukraine Prime Minister Azeroth claims the U.S. has written off Zelensky and is preparing to remove him, with corruption probes, arrests close to his inner circles, and Trump's repeated call for a new leader.
The pressure on Ukraine's president is growing.
All this comes right after Kiev's Operation Spiderweb drone attack and Russia's expected brutal retaliation.
Does that resonate with you?
Yes, yes.
And, you know, people should not confuse Russia's delay in responding with a lack of will or a lack of desire.
In fact, it is Russia being very careful.
Very precise in their planning that they're going to definitely punish and hurt those who were responsible for this operation.
And it's not the blowing up of the trains.
It was the attack on the airfields going after the strategic bombers.
Somebody within either the British or the U.S. chain of command didn't have enough sense to say, for God's sake, we're not crossing that line.
This is creating a risk.
And Russia will not tolerate it.
So, you know, Putin made it very clear to Donald Trump, this has crossed the line, and we're going to exact our pound of flesh.
And notice that Donald Trump said, no, you're not.
You know, Donald said, okay, you guys do what you need to do, just keep us out of it.
It's a rare time that President Putin threatened something that Trump didn't want to happen.
That Trump didn't threaten back for the reasons that you've articulated.
I had a conversation with Alistair this morning.
He thinks that Lindsey Graham and Richard Blumenthal are trying to intimidate President Trump.
They have 80 co-sponsors, 80 members of the Senate, veto-proof.
On legislation to impose secondary sanctions, you know, sanctions on countries whose businesses do business with Russian businesses.
This, of course, would be crazy.
But Alistair thinks that Trump is fearful of this if it passes the House.
Fearful that any negotiation that Whitcoff comes up with that allows some nuclear enrichment for Iran.
We'll be harshly condemned by the Senate.
Now, Woodcoff's not negotiating for a treaty.
Trump can enter into any kind of agreement he wants with Iran.
But all of this led to my question, Alastair, and to you in a minute.
Who's running American foreign policy?
When I asked that to Alastair, here's what he said.
Chris, cut number five.
He's terrified of the Senate with 80% of the Senate.
Opposed either to the Iran deal or to his deal normalization with Russia and want an escalation.
This is very dangerous.
So who's in charge of foreign policy?
The Russians may be asking himself.
Well, not President Trump, but it will be split up between the deep state, the Congress, and Israel.
Deep state, Congress, and Israel.
So, Larry Johnson, who is running American foreign policy?
Well, we've had some interesting developments over the last 72 hours.
Donald Trump has removed three of the most ardent Zionist members of the National Security Council.
I don't have their names at my fingertips, but one of them was this lady who had been an IDF officer, and she was removed.
So the fact that Trump is removing them sends one message.
Donald Trump also holds some cards that Lindsey Graham does not.
Without identifying the specific members of Congress, there are Republicans and Democrats, both in the Senate and the House, who are currently being looked at by Ed Martin.
Because they have received significant sums of money in kickbacks from the Ukrainian government.
And we're talking millions of dollars.
Is one of them a ubiquitous senator from South Carolina?
Without identifying any particular senator, all I can say is one senator has received, I'm told, $17.3 million.
Another senator, $23 million.
And it's bipartisan.
So this is not just the Republicans or just the Democrats.
This is Republicans and Democrats.
So Donald Trump may actually have some leverage here with respect to some of these senators and some of these members of Congress that despite all their chest-thumping and wanting to go to war, they may actually ultimately end up backing off.
Larry, thank you for this extraordinary interview.
Thank you for taking the time from the good work that you're doing there.
Please give my personal regards to Pepe, whom we'll see tomorrow, and to the great George Galloway.
Thank you for what you said to Prime Minister Lavrov.
If you could hang around for a minute after you go off air, Chris is trying to figure out when we can do the roundtable, and we're not familiar with your travel plans.
Of course.
I've got to tell you.
When I went into the bathroom and they're carved into the wood, the judge was here.
I went, oh, my God.
It wasn't by my hand.
Thank you, Larry.
I'm just kidding.
I'm just kidding.
Thank you.
We'll chat with you in a bit.
Off air.
All the best.
And coming up tomorrow, Tuesday at 8 o 'clock.
What a pip, Larry.
Coming up tomorrow at 8 o 'clock in the morning, Ambassador Charles Freeman.
On all of this at 11 in the morning, Scott Ritter.
At 3 in the afternoon, Colonel Karen Kwiatkowski.
And at 3.30 in the afternoon, from Moscow, Pepe Escobar.
▲
Export Selection