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April 21, 2025 - Judging Freedom - Judge Andrew Napolitano
26:35
Ray McGovern : Are US and Russia at War with Each Other?
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Hi everyone, Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom.
Today is Monday, April 21st, 2025.
Ray McGovern will be here with us in just a moment, but first this.
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Ray McGovern, welcome here, my dear friend.
Before we talk about the United States and Russia at war with each other...
And before I ask you of the geopolitical significance, if any, of the passing of Pope Francis, I want to run a clip of you making a beautiful and impassioned plea to the Pope not too long ago.
Chris, cut number seven.
I remember quite well when you came and spoke before our Congress in the United States in Washington, D.C. And made an eloquent speech at the end of which you pointed out what you call the real problem.
And what you call the real problem was the blood-drenched arms trade.
People are making millions, even billions on this war.
People appropriating the money in the U.S. Congress before which you spoke are in receipt of proceeds from the sale of these weapons.
And this has to stop.
I'm going to guess that the Pope did not respond to you directly, and I'm going to guess that if he heard what you said, he understood it.
But back to my original question, what, if any, is the geopolitical significance of Francis' passing, Ray?
Well, Judge, just to finish up on that little one-minute...
announcement on the largest religious network in the world.
It was the Catholic ETWN.
I suggested specifically, I'd like to be specific, that the Pope send an emissary, just as John Paul II did right before the attack on Iraq.
What the Pope did was send Pio Lodgi, a cardinal who He played tennis with George W. Bush, who was a really great friend of the family, introduced him, the pope did, by saying,"You know this fellow, now please listen to him." Now, we know from the letter,
in the conversation later, that what Bush said,"Well, all right, I'll listen to you a little bit, then you'll listen to me.
We got to do this." Well, what happened?
Lodgy was turned down, and what did he do?
He didn't say anything for seven months, okay?
So what I was suggesting to this pope is, look, you need to do that again on your crane.
You ought to get the straight story, and you ought to send an emissary.
Now, with respect to the geopolitical consequences of Francis's death, this is a very brief conversation, Judge.
There aren't any.
The church has long since lost its moral standing.
This ability to stand out, to speak out for justice.
This happened in Salvador.
It happened in South America with the liberation theology.
People who wanted to follow Jesus' dictum on justice.
And so no matter what kind of pious statements come out of the Vatican, I'm an Archbishop Romero fan.
I just want to sort of quote what he said very poignantly one time.
A church...
That doesn't provoke any crisis.
A gospel that doesn't unsettle.
A word of God that doesn't get under anyone's skin.
A word of God that doesn't touch the real sin in the society in which it is being proclaimed.
What kind of gospel is that?
You and I, Judge, know Bishop Gumbleton, who died last year.
He was a fighter for justice, and when he went to Iraq, As he did several times.
He came back and spoke.
I arranged him to speak at the Servant Leadership School in Washington, of which I was co-director at the time.
The year was 2002.
We had started a series called The Things That Make for Peace, and Bishop Tom Gumbleton was our first speaker.
This is a little vignette.
Bear with me.
After he got finished talking about his success in persuading the other bishops, unusually.
Unanimously to condemn what was going on with respect to the sanctions against Iraqi children.
Unconscionable was the word they used.
One of the Protestant ladies in our congregation said,"Now, Bishop Gumbleton, what reaction did you get from the White House?" And Tom kind of gulped and he said,"Well, this is the situation.
There are 70 million Catholics.
If the bishops went back to their dioceses and told their pastors,"You will preach this from the pulpit," we could make a difference right now.
The White House just looks at us as 270 possible votes.
They didn't go back, and they didn't preach it, and that's where we are today.
The Word of God is not preached, and whether Francis lives or dies, and of course he just died.
I don't see anyone but the people like Berrigan, the people like Bishop Tutu.
I heard Bishop Gumbleton give one of his very moving and emotional talks at St. Joe's and the Village.
St. Joe's is the oldest Catholic church in New York City.
It was built during the presidency of Andrew Jackson and has always been a
for the social justice teachings of the church.
This is according to NPR.
This was not on the front page of the New York Times.
It was not on Fox News.
It was not on any of the legacy media.
We missed it.
Anyway, Pope Francis has been outspoken in his criticism of Israel's military campaign in Gaza.
Last month, referring to January of this year, last month he described the humanitarian situation there as shameful, and he said there should be an investigation into whether Israel's sanctions in Gaza constitute genocide.
This is from NPR on February 19th, 2025.
He should have gone to Gaza and said, stop!
Not only that, Judge, but did he not know that the UN has already investigated whether or not there's been genocide and has indicted Netanyahu?
Correct. The call for an investigation about whether there is genocide is shockingly naive and ignorant.
Of what's going on and of the indictments.
Look, it's not considered proper to speak evil of the dead, but he is being praised and defended by legacy media all over the place today.
That machine is in operation and I will not hesitate to be critical of him.
He did not use his moral voice effectively for peace.
Yeah, and Judge, this is not the first.
I read the New York Times today.
I mean, the guy is a real mensch.
I mean, he was very, very nice pope.
But like you say, he could have done more.
Here's an example from the past.
Now, we have Tutu saying that to remain neutral in times like these is to be on the side of the oppressor.
And Pius XII was neutral during the first Holocaust.
I mean, the one in Germany.
Here's what...
Camus, Albert Camus said when some Dominicans invited him to their monastery and said,"Would you please tell us as an outsider, as an atheist, what you think of how the church acted during the Holocaust and during World War II." This is what he said,
quote,"For a long time during those frightful years, I waited for a voice to speak in Rome." Me?
An atheist?
Yes. A voice from Rome.
What the world expects of Christians is that Christians should speak out loud and clear and that they should voice their condemnation in such a way that never a doubt, never the slightest doubt, could arise in the heart of the simplest person.
That Christians should get away from abstraction and confront the blood-stained face history has taken on today.
That was 1947.
It's not very different today.
And we have a Vatican that is not able, not willing to speak, as Romero called it, to speak out.
And for justice for these poor people, many of whom, of course, are Christians, but that doesn't matter.
They're human beings, for God's sake.
Genocide again, silence in the Vatican.
Yeah, yeah.
All right, back to the US and Russia.
I mean, there's this crazy congressman from Pennsylvania.
I never heard of this guy before.
His name is Fitzpatrick, who went over to Ukraine and fired American weaponry into Russia.
It was my profound honor.
I'm now quoting him.
To deliver a very personal message to Vladimir Putin from the front lines of the war near the Russian border on behalf of our PA-1, that's 1st Congressional District in Pennsylvania community.
The only permissible details to share are that the message was delivered on target.
Hashtag peace through strength.
Now, the 1st Congressional District in Pennsylvania, which this representative Fitzpatrick represents, Has, of course, the military-industrial complex in it, no surprise.
No surprise at all.
He apparently signed one of the artillery shells to Vladimir.
That's the reference to a personal message.
You can see, if you can read clearly on the screen, where we have superimposed the red arrow.
That's where he has signed the projectile.
We are not permitted to show him pulling the trigger that dispatched it, but I can tell you that I have seen it, and if you Google this, you can, of course, find it.
Question, does the deep state want the war to continue, whether Donald Trump wants it to continue or not?
Well, first, Fitzpatrick, what a guy, huh?
What a guy.
He's a disgrace to your landsman.
There are plenty of Italian disgraces to it.
On this day after Easter, this guy is a disgrace.
Yeah, so let's see.
Now, he's from that district.
And, of course, the real sad story is that goes over big in that district.
I mean, that's because these people, not evil.
They just don't know what's going on, Judge.
Now, we're making a dent in that.
But it's a long process.
So, I mean, in a way, it's a venial sin for him, not a mortal sin.
He doesn't know any better, right?
So the question you asked was, yeah, does the deep state work?
Of course it does.
I mean, hey, filthy looker.
The military industrial complex, about which I spoke in that brief message to Pope Francis, is making it fast and loose and get lots of money, and everybody has stock in it, up until recently at least.
Doing a killing.
Gold as well, as you know.
So, yeah, a filthy lucre.
And then there's the power that goes with exerting your will throughout the world.
What people don't realize is that's pretty much over.
Our fiscal situation is precarious.
And, you know, we're up against formidable opponents now with Russia and China joined at the hip, two against one, and that's just part of it.
Secretary Rubio.
Now, this is on Friday.
Good Friday.
Restating what he said a few days before.
Apparently, when he said a few days before, you only got a week left, President Zelensky.
Nobody believed him.
He went back, checked it with President Trump.
Trump must have said, say it again.
We're going to also show Trump confirming Secretary Rubio's statement.
But here is Secretary Rubio on Good Friday.
Chris, cut number one.
We're not going to continue to fly all over the world and do meeting after meeting after meeting if no progress is being made.
So if they're serious about peace, either side or both, we want to help.
If it's not going to happen, then we're just going to move on.
We're going to move on to other topics that are equally, if not more important in some ways, to the United States.
I think from the U.S. perspective, we spent three years, billions of dollars, supporting the Ukrainian side.
But now we've reached the point where we have other things we have to focus on.
We're prepared to be engaged in this as long as it takes, but not indefinitely, not without progress.
If this is not possible, we're going to need to move on.
I think the president feels strongly that we've dedicated a tremendous...
We've done more in 80 days than Biden ever did to bring this war to an end.
I guess they are serious and they're going to give Zelensky what?
Some sort of a drop-dead date?
I mean, one wonders why he hasn't turned off that spigot yet.
He's been in the White House for almost 100 days and it's still flowing, but this seems to be the most serious threat so far that the spigot is not going to flow forever.
I think with respect to the spigot, that has to do with domestic considerations, so it's not quite ready yet to do that.
Also, the fact that they're running out of money and arms anyway, so why make a big deal out of it?
Well, you know, it's really hard to tell.
I'll say it again.
Trump is, by nature, unpredictable.
So is Rubio.
Sometimes Rubio doesn't seem to know what his instructions really are.
That's why he went back and checked.
So they're putting the pressure on.
The pressure is being put on Ukraine, not Russia.
And that's the new phenomenon here.
I see.
A degree of trust between Putin and Trump personally that has not existed for decades and decades, and I've been around for decades and decades.
They're even saying it.
Here's Putin going out on a limb saying this guy is sincere, this Trump.
He can be trusted.
Trusted, my God!
After all those betrayals that they suffered over Ukraine at the hands of the Biden and other regimes.
So, yeah, I see hope here.
I don't know how it's going to come, but the U.S. is going to be out of there because, well, one party is recalcitrant and refusing to budge, and that happens to be Kyiv and Zelensky.
Unless he changes his tune, he's going to go with those Europeans that have this grandiose idea that they're still important.
That's what the Chinese call We'd have a no good end, right?
Talk to me about Intel.
If Trump says, shut it down, are there rogue Intel agents who will continue to provide information to Ukrainian, rogue American Intel agents who will continue to provide Intel to their Ukrainian counterparts?
There will be MI6.
There will be British agents which will do it either spontaneously or under direction from their government.
I wish I could tell you there would be no rogue US elements, but I can tell you that.
It all depends on Tulsi Gabbard and whether she can rein in all these people who like to overthrow governments and supply arms to people like the neo-Nazis in Ukraine.
It remains to be seen, but there is a hopeful sign.
Now, Tulsi Gabbard reiterated that Iran is not working on a nuclear weapon.
So, you know, that's really a straw man to say, as Larry Johnson said on Friday, it's like saying, McGovern, you're about to stop driving that Lamborghini.
I don't have a Lamborghini.
And Iran doesn't have a nuclear weapons program.
It all depends, really, on whether she can continue to make an impact here and to warn the president, look, you don't want to get in a war with Iran.
Don't let Bibi mousetrap you.
Well, here's President Trump also on Good Friday, more or less, more than less.
Confirming Secretary Rubio's statement.
Chris, cut number two.
Secretary Rubio said that the U.S. will have to figure out whether a deal can be done between Russia and Ukraine in a matter of days, or you will just move on.
Yeah, very short.
How many days is that?
No specific number of days, but quickly, we want to get it done.
If for some reason one of the two parties makes it very difficult.
We're just going to say you're foolish, you're fools, you're horrible people, and we're going to just take a pass.
But hopefully we won't have to do that.
And Marco's right in saying we want to see it end.
And yet, Ray, he still listens, apparently, to General Kellogg, who has come out with some of the most absurd suggestions imaginable.
I saw one of them.
On Secretary Rubio's meetings at a large table, I think he was opposite the French foreign minister.
On his right was Mr. Witkoff, who's not an official.
The government has not been confirmed by the Senate, but has the presence here.
On Marco Rubio's left was General Kellogg.
What the heck was he doing there?
Kellogg wants NATO in Ukraine.
If anything's a non-starter, how could he possibly be...
Ignorant of the cause of this war.
Well, he's sold by the British and the French, and to a degree the Germans said, we've got to keep doing this, okay?
Now, whether he thinks that Trump supports him or not doesn't matter.
He's doing what Kellogg thinks is the right thing to do, right?
And it's really mischievous, because unless you accept that Trump is very mercurial...
And he doesn't often give directions very specifically and accurately to his folks.
Well, you're totally confused.
Now look to Wyckoff.
Look to Trump.
They're the ones that are the deciders here.
They're the ones that keep talking, even this week.
There's another meeting in London this week.
So we'll have to see how this all shakes out.
But Trump really wants to get this thing done.
The good news is, so does Poochie.
And I think there's a way they can work.
I hope they'll make some sort of...
Framework announcement before the big celebration marking the 80th anniversary of victory in Europe in 1945.
That's in May, May 8th, May 9th.
That would be a really nice occasion to say, look, we've got a new framework here which takes into account the concerns, the core interests, not only of Western Europe, but also of Russia.
If I had President Trump's ear...
I would be lobbying him to make a surprise appearance in the Kremlin on May 9th.
And then to grab President Putin and say, I'm staying for a week or however long it takes for us to negotiate a grand reset.
Just do it, Mr. President.
Don't wait for Kellogg or Whitcoff or Rubio.
Just do it.
I would counsel the same way, Judge, but I think I would expect from Putin, all right, look, I have these generals, I have these admirals, and I have these hardliners behind me.
They're so much aware of how many times you guys betrayed us, starting back in the year 1990, when you promised not to expand NATO.
So look, give me something.
Give me something I can put my teeth into.
That I can announce as a measure of goodwill on your part, then come on, we'll talk with you.
She's coming too, so we can have a real party here, and we can announce something approaching Yalta way back in 1945.
Before we go, headlines in today's New York Times.
Large print.
Defense head said to send war plan to second group.
The New York Times has three sources.
Saying that Pete Hegseth again used a non-secure signal group, one that included his wife, his brother, and his lawyer, none of whom have security clearances, as I understand it, to discuss plans to kill people in Yemen.
What's going on here?
Well, Hegseth is either invincibly ignorant or just doesn't give a rat's patootie.
One would expect that from him.
Now, let me just say one thing, Judge.
You showed a photo of him that shows that he is in violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
Look at that little hanky in his pocket.
It's against regulations.
They use the American flag as a decorative symbol, especially in your little pocket there.
So Hexeth is from hunger.
He does the first thing about defense.
And I would hope that Trump will think better of having nominated him and get some other Dick Tracy square draw guy that looks really good to try to grab a hold of him.
You are very charitable.
Colonel McGregor looked at this and said, you nominate a clown, you get a circus.
This is the White House saying, recently fired leakers are continuing to misrepresent the truth to soothe their shattered egos and undermine the president's agenda, but the administration will continue to hold them accountable.
This is White House Deputy Press Secretary Anna Kelly.
I don't know her, but this is the statement she made.
They don't deny, at least not directly, that Hegseth did this.
They just say, don't listen to these people we fired.
They're disgruntled.
We know how to fire, and we're going to do it, right?
Leaks are not to be tolerated unless we do them.
I mean, it's the old game, George.
You know it well.
Thank you very much, particularly your beautiful comments about the Pope and the Church, as well as your usual insight about intel and war.
All the best.
We'll see you at the end of the week for the Intelligence Community Roundtable with our friend Larry Johnson.
Thanks, George.
Thank you, Ray.
And Larry Johnson, of course, is coming up right here at 11.30 this morning, and then at 3 this afternoon on all of this, Scott Ritter, and at 4 o'clock this afternoon from Rome, from a grieving Rome, Professor Jeffrey Sachs.
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