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March 14, 2025 - Judging Freedom - Judge Andrew Napolitano
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INTEL Roundtable w/ Johnson & McGovern : Weekly Wrap
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Hi, everyone.
Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom.
Today is Friday, March 14th, 2025.
It's the end of the day, the end of the week, our happiest time of the week and time for our Intelligence Community Roundtable with Larry Johnson and Ray McGovern.
For Larry and I, it has been a tumultuous and eye-opening week about which, as we were in Moscow together with others and our group, about which more a little later.
But Larry and Ray, I want to ask the same question to each of you and Larry to you first.
In one week, Marco Rubio, the American Secretary of State, claims he has a ceasefire to which Vladimir Zelensky agrees.
President Putin, in my view, profoundly rejected it.
You guys may disagree on how profound the rejection was.
In the same week...
President Trump reopened the spigot of military aid to Kiev and reopened the spigot of intel to Kiev.
And in the same week, Ukraine bombed residential neighborhoods in Moscow, killing a few people.
Larry, to you first.
Now, Ray, I'm going to ask the same question.
What the hell is going on?
Ukraine is desperate, and it's lashing out.
Actually, they didn't accept...
The ceasefire, or at least the delegates said, oh, yeah, yeah, we're in favor of a ceasefire.
But then the very next day, Zelensky walked away from it.
So whereas Putin's response was very polite and, you know, nuanced, which has a special meaning, apparently, in Russian.
But he then listed out a variety of things that would have to be addressed.
Which is exactly what you and I heard from Foreign Minister Lavrov in our discussion on Monday.
That the position that Putin laid out about having an end to hostilities last June in 2024 remained in effect.
That hasn't changed.
And so to top it off, that drone attack that was launched across Russia, you know, I was there for it.
I have to honestly say, I didn't hear a thing.
You know, we were downtown at the Metropole.
There were no air raid warning or alarms going off.
There weren't any news flashes across the screen telling people to take cover.
So the Russian air defense seemed to have it pretty well handled.
Nonetheless, it was still one of those things that was a further evidence, as far as Russia is concerned, that Ukraine is this continuing aggressor.
But then Putin followed that up by the next day.
Dressing in military uniform or combat fatigues, going to Kursk and giving Gerasimov and his commanders the direct order that all Ukrainian military personnel still in Kursk,
they have only two choices, surrender or die.
He didn't open up any other Third Avenue.
And on the other thing that happened this week before we go to Ray, Trump reopening the two spigots, military and intel.
Yeah, I think that's really more symbolic than substantive.
It's one of those things that Trump, I think, may be doing to try to deflect pressure from those members of Congress that, you know, frankly, they're on the payroll.
I can tell you off air the precise number.
But you'd be surprised at the number of Republicans and Democrats that have been getting kickbacks out of the USA that's been flowing to Ukraine is getting kicked back to them.
You mean bribes to them or political donations?
Yes. Yes.
Ray, the same question about last week.
Rubio, Zelensky, Putin, the bombing of Moscow, and Trump opening the intel and military spigots.
Your observations about what thread, if anything, connects them?
Judge, I don't think we should be surprised.
After all, Trump is the very definition of unpredictability.
The more so his lieutenants, like Rubio, like Kellogg.
They say one thing on Monday, a different thing on Tuesday.
And what Rubio concluded there with the Ukrainians, why were the U.S. negotiating with the Ukrainians?
I mean, a lot of this stuff doesn't make sense.
What does make sense is that Steve Witkoff, he's the man, right?
He's Trump's guy.
What'd he do with Netanyahu?
He called him up and he said, look, I need to meet with you.
No, no, tomorrow's a Sabbath.
I need to make you sit down, shut up.
We're going to have a ceasefire.
Now, Witkoff arrives in Moscow yesterday to the tune of Ukrainian drones and another attack on Moscow cities.
Pin tricks.
Don't make any difference.
Maybe three people killed in that massive attack with 300 drones, okay?
Witkoff arrived.
Now, is Witkoff going to say, all right, Vladimir, sit down, shut up.
This is what it's going to be.
No, you're not going to do that.
He's going to say, I don't know what Rubio is trying to do or Kellogg, but the president is telling me, what do you think about this new thing?
And Putin says, I think it's great that the president wants peace.
And I think that negotiation is the way to go.
But, you know, there are certain nuances.
There are certain things that need to be done with.
And we know that Whitlock has just left Moscow.
As the reports are, that Putin told him, look, there's a whole hell of a lot left to be done before we talk about serious things.
And guess what?
The ball's not in our court.
Forget it.
We're winning, remember?
Okay? The ball's in your court.
Now, I think, and this is a guess, I think Trump wants a deal to the degree that he'll listen even more carefully.
He's already met one condition, that is, no Ukraine and NATO.
I mean, he said that.
He said he can understand why the Russians wouldn't want that.
The other stuff is small potatoes.
They could work it out.
But Trump has to realize that Ukraine and the West, including the U.S., has lost this one.
So the Guardian of London is reporting that Putin kept Witkoff waiting for three hours.
Is that right?
Yeah. I don't think that...
Five minutes of Lavrov kept Larry and me waiting for more than three minutes.
He was very, very, very prompt, and we were more or less entertained by his head of PR during that three-minute time period.
But more on our trip later.
I have some clips that I want to play for you.
The first is President Putin reacting to the Marco Rubio so-called ceasefire.
Chris, cut number 16. So, how are they going to use these 30 days?
Are they going to use it in order to continue the forced mobilization in Ukraine?
In order to supply weapons to those areas?
In order to newly mobilized units to undergo training?
Question, who is going to give orders to...
Cease fire.
And what is the value of these orders?
Can you imagine about 2,000 kilometers?
Who is going to determine who and where violated this agreement?
That's an area of 2,000 kilometers.
And then who is going to blame who?
The violations of this agreement.
All of these are questions that need to be thoroughly studied.
We need to have a call with President Trump and discuss this.
But the idea in itself to stop this conflict in a peaceful way, that's something that we support.
That was earlier today.
Also earlier today was President Zelensky's response.
Chris, cut number three.
Moreover, what we've all heard from Russia now are very predictable, very manipulative words from Putin in response to the idea of silence on the front.
He is essentially preparing to refuse as of now.
Putin, of course.
Is afraid to tell President Trump directly that he wants to continue this war.
That he wants to kill Ukrainians.
And that's why they're there in Moscow promoting the idea of silence.
With such fabrications that nothing will come of it at all.
Or to make sure it doesn't work out for as long as possible.
Putin often does this.
He doesn't say no directly.
But he does it this way.
So it practically just drags everything out and makes normal solutions impossible.
Can the United States be an honest broker between the two when in reality we're a co-belligerent?
We provoke the war.
We manifested the war.
We pay for the war.
We stop paying for the war.
We resume paying for the war.
Ray was trying to jump in.
Go ahead, Ray.
No, I just want to say a brief correction, Judge.
That clip...
Putin was yesterday.
Oh, okay.
All right, go ahead.
Before Whitcoff arrived, okay?
Yeah. So he should have been forewarned.
Now, I hadn't seen the Zelensky one, but if that comes after, well, that's even worse because Zelensky thinks he's driving the train here.
He ain't driving the train anymore, and neither is Whitcoff, who has kept waiting for six hours or whatever.
You are correct, so we have the chronology correct.
I misread the date.
The Putin statement was yesterday.
The Zelensky statement was earlier today.
Larry? Yeah, the Putin statement was, you know, when he used the term nuance, those were his nuances.
He was running down, hey, ceasefire, man, great.
We'd like to see an end to this conflict.
But there's some nuances, such as, we've got a 2,000-mile front.
Who's going to be the monitor that's going to go up and down and declare who violated the ceasefire?
That's number one.
How are we going to impose it?
So he's got all of these questions laid out, just like a good lawyer, that have to be addressed.
So he didn't tell Donald Trump and Whitcoff, Screw you, hell no, and go away.
No, much classier.
You know, we've got something we can talk about here.
Because what the Russians are interested in, as we saw with Foreign Minister Lavrov, is getting re-engaged with the United States so you can have normal diplomatic relations.
It doesn't mean you're always going to agree.
But at the same time, as Ray noted, Putin kept Whitcoff waiting.
He sent in a message of who's in charge.
The United States is not...
Russia is not dancing to the United States, too.
It's the other way around.
Zelensky, he doesn't hold any cards.
But neither does Donald Trump.
Trump doesn't even hold a Trump card, despite his name.
Ray, your comments.
Let's see.
Yeah, I think what Larry alluded to before is extremely important.
Never have I seen...
President Putin, commander-in-chief of the Soviet Armed Forces, in fatigues.
He was in fatigues in Kursk, okay, at the command center there, and he gave orders to Gerasimov, his chief of staff, look, I want this Kursk thing ended as soon as possible.
We got them surrounded.
Some of them don't qualify for Geneva Convention protections.
They're mercenaries.
We need to deal with it.
We need to deal with it as soon as possible.
Meanwhile, on this 2,000-kilometer other front, we're proceeding apace.
Bottom line, Russia doesn't need a ceasefire.
The last thing Russia wants is a ceasefire.
The big thing it wants is a core agreement on rearranging things so Russia doesn't have to fear NATO in Ukraine any longer.
And that's possible as long as somebody hits Trump over the top of the head.
Why do you think, Ray McGovern, Trump has reopened the spigot of military supply and intel to the Ukrainians after closing both of them for two weeks?
I think that one of the marginal people in the Pentagon or the White House said, hey, this might be a good idea.
Yeah, we turn it off.
Now, if you turn it on, maybe they'll be nicer.
It doesn't make any sense, Judge.
I suspect that it's not going to last very long.
In any case, it's far too late to have any effect on the battlefield.
Somebody needs to tell Trump that.
And then, you know, Putin is going to have to just wait.
He's patient.
And he's got his own people looking over his shoulder saying, look, don't be deceived again, for God's sake.
The last thing we need is a Minsk 3. Yeah.
Well, and John, just let me chime in there.
Sure. We heard that from Lavrov specifically.
You know, he didn't quite come out and say, you know, we've been bamboozled in the past, but as he reviewed the history of what has transpired, he made it clear that, you know what, every time we've caved in to give a ceasefire...
The Ukrainians have taken advantage of it to build up and then come back to attack us.
And it's happened at least four times.
So he said, we're done with that.
We're going to make sure that we've got a firm solution to what is the underlying cause of this war, which goes in part to U.S. meddling in the foreign affairs of Russia and other countries and the buildup of NATO.
Here's America's answer to Sergei Lavrov, declining to answer the question about whether he trusts Putin.
Chris, cut number one.
Do you trust Putin?
I think it's an irrelevant question.
I think in foreign policy, it's not about trusting.
It's about action.
It's about things that you do.
So, in the end, on something like this, you can't just say you want peace, you have to do peace.
And that's true for both sides in any conflict, in any war, in any engagement.
So, I think ultimately, all these things...
I would just encourage you guys, if we're going to be serious about foreign policy, to sort of navigate away from some of the, this is not a reality show, this is not about personalities, this is very simple.
You either do things or you don't.
There are things you are doing and things you're not doing.
So I think it's important.
I get there's this temptation to cover foreign policy the way we cover domestic policy and the way we cover other things in our society.
But foreign policy is about nation-states pursuing what they have interpreted to be in their national interest.
And balancing that is what the art of diplomacy and the work of foreign policy is all about.
So we need to sort of be mature and open-eyed and realistic.
Without losing our idealism, without losing, you know, what we hope the world will look like and want to shape it and be a part of.
But by the same token, you know, we have to make pragmatic decisions every single day.
And that's not true today.
That's always true.
Still a neocon, Ray.
No, Judge, I think he performed reasonably well there.
You know, it's not about trust.
It's about verifying.
Doverai, no proverai.
Trust, but verify.
There is no trust between the U.S. and Russia right now, but it can be induced if you have an agreement that can be properly verified.
I wish they had given the answer the way you did, instead of a BS scolding of the press.
Well, you know, when you're a Secretary of State, that's what you do.
You try to deflect the tension.
You say, well, look, this is, you know, I don't hold any brief exactly for his words, but what he's saying is, look.
A trust is really important.
There isn't any now, but there can be if we come to a solution that is appropriately verified.
And we've done that with the ABM Treaty, with the INF Treaty, with Open Skies Treaty.
We've done that before we can do it again, especially given the sophistication of the monitoring devices that we have all over the world and in space.
We can do it if there's a will.
And I think there is a will on the part of both Pooching.
Thank you, Donald Trump.
As Ray was pointing out, anything the United States says.
What is the United States actually doing?
Now, in that regard, we come back to one of your initial questions with respect to restarting intelligence sharing, if that's true, and continuing the flow of military equipment to Ukraine.
That will be then interpreted as, we hear you saying that you want to bring an end to this, but the fact is...
You're facilitating it.
You're enabling it.
The reality right now is this war could end tomorrow.
All Donald Trump has to do is pull the plug completely.
And the fact that he's not doing it is going to be in the back of the minds of the Russians that, you know, they can't fully trust the United States.
At least there is the talking at the diplomatic level that was not occurring under Biden.
And to that extent, you know, the Russians are pleased with that.
I won't say they're happy or ecstatic, but they welcome that as a positive sign without pretending or ignoring the other overt actions of hostile actions by the United States.
How dangerous was it for Kiev, Ray, to have no access to any intel from the Five Eyes?
It was suicidal.
I mean...
You can't operate with that kind of access.
So there's sort of a lull in the fighting from the Ukrainian side.
That's because they have not had access to this, but it's only been a couple of days.
George, I'd like to make a more important point.
I compliment you and Larry on the fact there was this mutual trust between you and Lavrov.
Just the last couple of days, days ago.
And I appreciate his sense of humor when he talked about Führer Ursula von der Leyen and when he talked about the French nuclear umbrella.
Yes, three or four bombs, okay?
But, you know, this kind of confidence could be...
Could be a little bit too reassuring to the Russian leaders who are riding high right now, okay?
One little French bomb can ruin your whole day, okay, and ruin the whole world.
The other thing I'll say is that even in his candor, Lavrov pulled his punches, okay?
What could he have cited?
Well, here's the most startling thing he said, in my view.
And Larry, of course, was seated right there.
Cut number 10, Chris.
Prime Minister of Denmark.
She said that these days Ukraine is weak.
Ukraine cannot be fairly treated now.
Therefore, for Ukraine today peace is worse than war.
She said this.
Let's pump Ukraine with weapons again.
And when we shake, have shaken Russian position, then let's see whether we can talk.
And the chief of German intelligence a couple of days ago said that it would be bad for Ukraine and for Europe if the war ends before 2029, and 2030 even better.
Yes, they say these things.
And when President Trump was interrogating President Zelensky in the Oval Office, asking him many times, you don't want to negotiate.
Zelensky was trying to avoid the nonsense.
As you know, because you were there, that was me guffawing, huh?
They want the word to go on to 2029.
You should turn your mic down if you're going to go far there.
Turn your mic down.
The falls are not allowed.
Why would the head of German Intel say something as inane as that, Larry?
Yeah. This is children's dress-up day for Europe.
Europe used to be a serious customer.
Germany used to be an industrial power.
The French used to have the largest army in Europe, and it actually had some competence to it.
And the United Kingdom used to rule the world, and the balance sterling was a principal currency.
They're all a joke now.
Everybody's talking tough about, boy, they're going to go kick some Russian booty.
And, man, they're going to put Putin in line, and they're going to do this, they're going to do that.
And the old expression that they're writing checks with their mouths that they can't cash.
And that's the reality.
So these kinds of threats, that's why Russia as a whole, Putin, Lavrov, and the rest of the government, they don't take Europe seriously anymore.
That they need to engage.
Because what does Europe bring to the table other than problems?
Nothing. They don't bring natural resources.
They don't bring financial wealth.
They don't bring military power.
And Ray was correct to note that even one French bomb or one English nuclear bomb, yes, would be terrible, would be devastating.
But we're talking overall in terms of the conventional military force of these countries.
They're laughable.
John, if I could pick up on what Larry said there, not only is it clear that the Russians are treating the Europeans with utter disdain, but they're saying so.
I'm not sure.
I think it was Medvedev or maybe Peskov just three days ago said, you know, the Europeans, a bunch of pygmies, pygmies at the top of Europe.
They're delusional.
And they have to change or we have to defeat them.
So Europe is really kind of a disdainful object of Russian disdain.
And the other thing I just want to interject here, in that long litany of actually provable examples where there was treachery and the Russians were deceived, Lavrov...
Left out one thing.
That's why I was referring to his adherence to some diplomatic niceties.
The President of the United States, Biden, on the 30th of December, promised Putin, look, we agree, no offensive strike missiles will be put into Ukraine.
That was on the phone.
Sullivan and Blinken weren't there.
Two weeks later, Lavrov Meets Blinken in Geneva.
Tony, Tony, what about Biden's undertaking not to put offensive strike missiles in Ukraine?
Blinken, forget about it.
We weren't with him at the time.
We have the right to put those offensive strike missiles in Ukraine, and we will if the Ukrainians ask us.
We might be able to talk about limiting the number of them.
Well, that was just a clear, clear, clear as a bell.
Larry, did you learn anything about Russia last week that you didn't know from your studying and your experience in the State Department and your prior visits there,
anything significant?
That if Trump called you, you would tell him.
Yeah, if you want to go out to eat on International Women's Day, you better damn well get reservations far in advance, okay?
Saturday night, it was impossible to find a restaurant in downtown Moscow, the one we really wanted to go to that the Pepe Esco bar had sent us to.
The hostess said, oh, they already prepaid their meals.
Forget it, you're not getting in.
What we learned is that the Russians celebrate International Women's Day like a combination of Valentine's Day and Mother's Day.
So women who are normally treated very, very well really get treated like the queens for the day and are feted and celebrated and wined and dined and gifted with flowers.
It's that human aspect out of the Russian people.
The warmth and generosity.
Particularly when we see little kids around, they're very doting on children.
They're a child-friendly environment.
So, you know, what I'd tell Trump is the Russian people are not our enemy.
The Russian people are our friends, and the government of Russia is not our enemy.
We should be in an alliance with the Russians.
Not at odds with them.
Ray, how do you read what Larry just said?
I think we once were in an alliance with the Russians.
Oh, I was alive during that.
That was World War II, right?
Now, people forget that.
And, you know, the statistics of 27 million Soviets dying against 4,000 U.S. all soldiers, the fact that Russia was...
Destroyed, and we escaped except for Pearl Harbor.
The Russians look at that and they say, these Americans are really lucky.
They don't know anything about war, but the time is up.
The ocean doesn't mean anything.
Lavrov has actually said that.
These oceans are not going to protect the U.S. next time.
So the Russians look on us as being kind of naive, not knowledgeable about the horrors of war, and that's a problem.
Because that reduces their time to think about what might happen if they see something really bad coming, like an Everett missile from France.
You know, the most, I think Larry agrees, the most amazing thing we saw was an interactive treatment of the Nazi invasion.
It just blew you away, the level of detail, the historical accuracy.
There were actors and there were also mannequins, but it was deeply, deeply, profoundly moving.
I'd never seen anything like this in any museum anywhere in the world, and I've been all over the world loving museums.
I think you were great, Larry.
Yeah, it's called the Victory Museum.
It was, as Judge said, one of the most remarkable...
You know, I've been through all the Smithsonian's.
I've never seen anything like this.
It really grabs you.
It brings you into it, and you begin to develop some appreciation for why this, 80 years later, this great patriotic war still resonates among the Russian people.
Ray, what do you think happens next?
Well, let me just add a footnote here.
Four months before they killed him, President John F. Kennedy pointed out in a major speech that almost alone among the major powers of the world...
Russia and the United States have never been at war one against the other.
That's big.
Not only is that the case, but we were major allies.
Neither of us could have won, I don't think, so quickly at least in World War II.
Now, I forget your question, Judge.
You know what?
You've ended this on a beautiful and moving note, and in case anybody missed it, everybody should listen to the first parenthetical phrase.
Four months before they killed him.
Did I quote you correctly?
You did, Judge, and hopefully we'll get to the bottom of that if Tulsi Gabbard and the president are strong enough to face into the deep state, which is the big question.
Yes. Gentlemen, thank you very much.
Always a pleasure.
An exhausting week for Larry and me.
Next time with you, Ray, because there's no better translator.
It would have been wonderful had you been there.
We talked about you all the time.
Larry, if Ray saw that!
Larry, if Ray was here!
Well, thank you.
Thank you, gentlemen.
All the best.
Thank you for double and Larry's case quintuple duty.
And we'll see you Monday morning.
Yes, sir.
Thanks. Thank you.
And on Monday morning, back to our old routine, Alistair.
Crook at 8 in the morning, Ray McGovern at 10, Larry Johnson at 1130, and we'll fill in some blank spaces for you in the afternoon.
Have a great weekend, everyone.
Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom.
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