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Jan. 12, 2025 - Judging Freedom - Judge Andrew Napolitano
22:02
Ray McGovern : Why/How the Intel Community Leaks.
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Hi, everyone.
Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom.
Today is Monday, January 13, 2025.
Ray McGovern will be here with us in just a moment on how and why the intelligence community leaks secrets.
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Brad McGovern, welcome here, my dear friend.
Always a pleasure.
What exactly did they do?
Did they perform chemical experiments on people without their knowledge?
Yes. It's very clear that that happened.
That happened in many places, including clinics, so to speak, in Canada.
The thing about this collection of analysis and reports, Judge, is that it was several years, many years in the making, and they took all this stuff and put it all together, and there are 20 large volumes in this 1,200
page. Record things they put out.
It's all put together with chapter and verse, including prominent photos of the perpetrators.
So everything is in one place, and the National Security Archive of GW University is very, very proud of all this.
They put it out.
I don't know who persuaded them not to put it out until right before Christmas, but they got it out there, and nobody took notice.
I found one other outlet.
One of the Microsoft compilations which ran one article a couple days ago.
But it hasn't hit what we call the establishment or the legacy media.
And it won't unless those people kind of hear us and try to get it up and out.
Because this is an indictment of the freewheeling CIA responsive and responsible to no one, including these new.
When I say new, 1977 is when they were set up after the Frank Church Committee.
They worked for a while.
They don't work anymore.
Oversight should look like this.
It's looked like this now.
And the CIA does whatever it wants as long as Jake Sullivan, the National Security Advisor, tells them the president wants this done.
So does George Washington University...
Well, they have the National Security Archive.
Yes, it's part of GW.
It's, I think, about 35 years old.
And what they do mostly is just file Freedom of Information Act requests.
And they've compiled them over the years.
And as the years go by, more and more becomes available.
And so they've done things on torture.
They've done things on the coup in Chile.
They've done things on every manner of thing, mostly with respect to intelligence community mistakes or errant behavior.
And it's all there for people to research, but there's no money in it for professors or for researchers because the major media will shun it or they'll just keep it so suppressed that after several years people say, oh, that's old news.
Well, then was this a leak or was this information legitimately responded to from a Freedom of Information Act request?
It was the latter.
It was the latter.
Okay, so why did GW leak it, or do we not know, or not leak it, release it?
Yeah, well, they formally released these studies when they're finished.
As I say, I think they said this was five, six, seven years in the making.
It was finally finished.
They put it in very cogent, accessible form.
As I say, 12 chapters.
And then chapter and verse and verse and verse and photos and everything else.
So there's a lot of, when we talked about this on Friday, there were a lot of people say, oh, that's old news, that's old news.
But they never took the trouble to look up what the National Security Archive had released on the 23rd of December.
And I guess so they're, well, you can pardon them for that because the...
URL was not widely available.
The supreme irony, of course, is that I learned this from Archie.
He called me on Friday morning and said, Mr. McGovern, would you discuss this with us?
I looked at the link and I said, oh, CIA mind control.
I'm not going to.
Then I clicked on it and this treasure came up.
So the comments we got from Friday, nobody had read.
Nobody had read the What the National Security Archive had put out because they couldn't find a link, okay?
Now that they have the later comments, the ones most recent, take into account that some of them have read these things.
And as I say, the backstory, a major side story, is that the U.S. media will continue to suppress this unless and until they're obliged to publish it.
And, you know, I wish that...
President-elect Trump's record on such things was better.
He sort of is a aficionado of torture, for one thing.
And why should he take on the deep state on this issue when it goes back several years?
So what were the years of these mind games?
When did they begin and when did they end?
Actually, they started in the early 50s.
And they were supposed to have ended in 1963.
Did presidents Truman, Eisenhower, and Kennedy know about this?
That's a good question.
My guess is they didn't, but I can't prove that.
You know, when presidents say, well, you do what you have to later, we want to get rid of Castro, okay?
Even John Kennedy.
I don't want to know about it.
You know what we need to have done, okay?
So there was assassination attempts.
There were successful Lumumba assassination attempts.
So this went on.
And the bottom story here, as I would say as a professor, the teaching point is that they can get away with this.
And knowing they can get away with this, they tortured.
They tortured people to get them to confess that there were links between Iraq and al-Qaeda.
Do up a little story, print it around the intelligence community.
Oh, here's a source with access that says this.
And you know what ensued from that, the Iraq war and so forth.
And then the torture itself, the torture they could get away with.
Well, if they can drug people, if they can kill people, Frank Olson is one of the people that jumped out a window, so to speak.
If they can kill people and still get away with it, well, it's carte blanche.
I mean, if I were a criminal, I really would want to work in this division of the Central Intelligence Agency.
People did die as a result of these mind game.
That's right.
There was a fellow called Frank Olson.
Now, he was a senior scientist working for the Pentagon.
They slipped a cocktail of LSD into his drink on a little off-site meeting a couple of days before he either fell, was pushed, or jumped out of a 12-story window.
In Manhattan and got killed.
Now, one of his friends said he talked to him a day or two before.
He sounded great.
He was a real party guy.
He was laughing it up.
He was sounding great.
So what happened?
How long does it take the LSD to take effect?
Who was with him?
Well, the fellow who was with him was one of the leaders, one of the gurus of this program, this LSD administration, to make sure that they could get people to do.
What they wanted them to do.
Are people still in the CIA today in 2025 who were involved in this nefarious program?
It's unlikely there are.
There are many that know about it.
Most of them are dead or long since out of service, so to speak.
So, but there are people, you know, it's kind of legendary.
That this is part of the ethos.
And it's even on the CIA website.
MKUltra. And some of it is a bunch of lies saying we got good information out of this sort of stuff.
There's no indication they did.
Now, did they kill some people because of this stuff?
Yeah, they did.
Was it effective in terms of mind control for various people that turned out to be very important?
Yeah, they did.
So if they want to claim success and not be held accountable, well, that's the bottom line.
Nobody's held accountable.
At the risk of sounding naive, was anybody prosecuted for the murders?
No. Not to my knowledge.
Are Israel and Iran both preparing for war with each other as we speak?
Iranians have been exercising their air defense.
They're almost mobilized in terms of making sure that they're prepared to the degree they can possibly be for an Israeli attack.
Now, one has to sort of widen the scope of this and say, well, why?
Well, there's only seven days left, seven days left before Trump comes in.
Did Netanyahu think that this would be a good time to strike out at Iranian nuclear facilities?
I dare say he might.
Would Jake Sullivan and Tony Blinken support such a move, even encourage it?
I dare say they might.
So while I think the prospect is less than even odds, so to speak, I think everyone has to be on tinderhooks.
Now, not only for the next seven days, But particularly for the next four days, because on the 17th, the Iranian president is going up to Moscow to sign a treaty with Russia,
an Iranian-Russia treaty, which would have a strategic aspect to it.
No one thinks that it will be a mutual defense treaty in terms of obliging either party to come to the aid of the other, but it will be close to that, sort of like the treaty between Russia and China, which is tantamount to a mutual defense treaty.
So, once on the 17th, and what is today?
Well, today is, what, the 13th, so four days from now.
Once that happens, then I think that there will be less inclination on the part of Israel.
Do we know what this strategic partnership provides for?
We don't know exactly, but most of the reporting says it falls short of a mutual defense treaty.
That's big, but it's like if China were attacked, would Russia come to China's aid?
Yes, it would.
Is there a mutual defense treaty?
No, it's something short of that.
It's a treaty where there is no upper end to it, as described by both presidents.
So it's an important thing.
It's been in limbo for over a year now.
I thought that the Russians were delaying because they were afraid that Iran might go off half-cocked because of Israeli provocation.
And so if that's the case, Russia is probably assuaged.
Russia is probably confident that if Iran does anything with respect to nuclear weapons, Russia will know about it and will be in retaliation for what the Israelis do.
If Donald Trump were to call you up and ask you, point blank, Ray, does Iran have nuclear weapons?
What would you tell him?
I'd say, Mr. President, no.
The answer is definitively no.
We have been monitoring this, monitoring it full bore since 2006.
In 2007, a national intelligence estimate came out, signed on by all 16 at the time intelligence agencies, and expressed with high confidence that Iran stopped working on a nuclear weapon in 2007 and had not,
I'm sorry, 2003, had not resumed work on a nuclear weapon.
Every year since, 2007, now we're 2025, for God's sake.
Every year since, the intelligence community has stood by that conclusion.
Does that mean that Jake Sullivan will feel bound?
Tony Blink will feel bound to honor those thoughts or that appreciation and tell them, no, no Israelis, we don't have that kind of information that you're selling.
We don't believe that.
If Netanyahu falsifies evidence and says, ah, now Iran is working on a nuclear weapon, well, that's all that Sullivan and Blinken would need to go to Biden and say, hey, Joe, Joe.
Joe, wake up!
Joe, we need to support now an Israeli attack on Iran before we leave because the Israelis are going to attack tomorrow and they want us by their side.
That's the extraordinary circumstance that I think we need to be alert for, at least for the next four days, for the next seven days until the new president is inaugurated.
Does Mossad know truthfully?
Whether or not Iran has nuclear weapons.
Oh, sure they do, yeah.
They know better than we do, but they won't admit that.
Not even in liaison talks, you know, we're very close, the Mossad and CIA.
Very often they'll, well, not often, their policy is to deny it.
Well, they deny that they have nuclear weapons.
Well, yeah, but everyone knows they do, and the number is between 90 and a couple of hundred.
So, yeah, that should be a deterrent against Iran and has been.
On the other hand, the equation has shifted.
Iran now has the equivalent or close equivalent for nuclear weapons.
They have nonstoppable, non-interceptible hypersonic missiles that can strike inside Israel and have already demonstrably What is the true reason that Israel wants to attack Iran if it knows
truthfully that Iran does not have nuclear weapons?
Incredibly technologically proficient.
They pose a threat to any country like Israel that is trying to broaden its Lebensraum, go for a greater Israel, and persecute or throw or kill or expel the Palestinians.
Now, Iran has broken out against that.
Iran has supported, of course, Hezbollah.
And to a degree, even Hamas, not to mention people in Syria and Iraq.
So whether it's justified or not, Israel is afraid that if Iran continues to progress, they will cause even a more stronger threat to them,
I'm just thinking.
It's the Houthis I always forget to mention.
Look at the havoc that the Houthis are doing, and that's enabled.
Does CIA and MI6 know that Iran does not have nuclear weapons or do they mislead their civilian masters?
Well, as I say, Judge, less than a year ago, in February of last year, the annual threat assessment, which is required by Congress, where the head of the The CIA and the head of the National Intelligence Superstructure testified before Congress as recently as 11 months ago.
They said, no, we hold to our view expressed in that National Intelligence Estimate of November 2007 that Iran is not working on a nuclear weapon.
This can be obfuscated.
People say, yeah, but they have all the uranium.
They have all that highly enriched uranium.
Yes, they do, okay?
And they could put that on a missile.
Yes, they could, but they have not developed the warhead.
And it would take more than just two weeks, as Sullivan's hints, that one or two weeks we could have a nuclear weapon.
Well, it takes more than two weeks to fashion a warhead and our intelligence capability and the...
Intelligence capability of the IAEA, UN, the inspector people, is such, and the cameras are buzzing all the time, that we would know almost immediately if the Iranians had decided to violate their fatwa, their religious edict,
and go ahead and work on a nuclear weapon.
I don't think they will.
I mean, I think they take this seriously, this fatwa, but also because they don't need to now.
They've got hypersonic weapons.
Against which there is no air defense from U.S. or from anybody else.
Ray McGovern, thank you very much, my dear friend.
Who knows what the world will be like on Friday when you and Larry and I see each other again, but I look forward to it as always.
Thank you, Judge.
All the best to you.
And the aforementioned Larry will be here at 11.30 this morning at 1 this afternoon.
Scott Ritter.
At 3 this afternoon, Matthew Ho, Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom.
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