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Dec. 8, 2024 - Judging Freedom - Judge Andrew Napolitano
23:19
Ray McGovern : Did Russia Give Up Syria?
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Hi everyone, Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom.
Today is Monday, December 9th, 2024.
Ray McGovern will be here with us in just a moment on what role did American security play in, excuse me, American intel play in toppling the Assad regime in Syria.
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Ray McGovern, welcome here, my dear friend.
Thank you, Judge.
Thank you.
What role, if any, did American intel play in toppling the Assad regime?
Well, there are a lot of former alumni that are pounding their brush and saying, we did it finally.
Judge, you probably know that our first covert operation at regime change was in 1947, the year that the CIA was created, and our objective was to topple the regime in Syria, okay?
That was back then, okay?
Now, our next covert action, big one, was 1953.
When the British took us by the shoulder and said, now you guys, you're a young organization.
This is what you do when a dictator, freely elected, a Mossadegh in Iran, thinks that the oil under his soil belongs to him.
It doesn't belong to him.
And so they overturned the government of China.
So the U.S. has been involved in this forever.
Of course they knew what was going on here.
They trained lots of troops.
They put $5 billion into this effort.
Whether they knew chapter and verse or whether they knew that Jelani would go so fast into Damascus, that's an open question.
But I think they probably knew that too because the whole Syrian army as well as the government outside Assad was corrupt, corrupt to the core and didn't heed the warnings that they were given long since by the Russians and by the Iranians to clean up their act so this wouldn't happen.
I mean, Jelani, this guy who's now the head of what passes for the government in Syria post-Assad, is still considered a terrorist by the State Department, and there's still a bounty on his head, even though the CIA's paying him.
Well, Judge, this betrays the reality that were you to work for the CIA, you would be in the analysis directorate.
But you said it makes very good sense.
But in answer to your question, it's the operations people that run the CIA, and they have no bones about funding this kind of thing.
Actually, there's so much in bed with the Israelis, and so much helped this all happen, that it reminds me, you know, back, what is it, eight years ago, the New York Times bureau chief in Jerusalem, her name was Jody Ruderin.
She talked to top-level senior Israeli officials, and among them, Alon Pinkas, who's come to the fore now.
He had been consul general in New York.
He said, Alon, what's your preferred outcome in Syria?
And he said, Jody, this is a little embarrassing to say, but our preferred outcome is no outcome.
As long as the Sunni and Shia are battling it out, as long as they're massacring and hemorrhaging their blood, Israel has nothing to fear.
From Syria.
Now, eight years later, that's finally come to pass.
Israel has nothing to fear from Syria.
Iran has taken it on a trend.
So has Hezbollah.
This has changed a whole bunch of things.
And the question is, what will Iran do now that has little other option than to resort to the natural outcome here?
And it would be developing a nuclear weapon, which they can do rather quickly.
Donald Trump issued a one-liner over the weekend saying the reason Syria fell is because its patron and benefactor abandoned it, and he identified the patron and benefactor as Vladimir Putin.
Is there any argument to be made there?
Well, no, that's not quite, that isn't correct.
Russia's tried to persuade Assad to get his act together.
They, too, are surprised.
Everyone, I think, is surprised at the quickness with which this happened.
But, you know, the Russians are a little smarter than many other superpowers.
And the Bronx would say, you've got to know when to hold them and when to fold them.
And it was very clear to the Russians weeks ago, this might be the time to fold them.
Because Assad won't listen to anybody.
He's cozying up to the Gulf monarchies.
He thinks there's percentage in that.
We better be prepared for this guy to go down.
And as soon as he does, well, we'll try to keep our equities in Syria.
That's not likely to eventuate.
So we're prepared to leave.
We've got to fold them on this particular one.
How can the intelligence community The West Wing, the White House itself, the State Department, be crowing about this when you consider the blood on the hands of the person now in charge of what passes for a government in Syria?
Well, Judge, that's a softball question.
It's really easy.
I mean, you just have the right people go to the Washington Post, the New York Times, and Jelani has changed.
He's going to welcome all kinds of disparate groups.
He's a new man, okay?
And so when he comes in, he's not going to chop off any hands, any heads.
He's going to let surrogates do that.
So he's been given a new image.
Now, there's, I suppose, a chance that he will start to act more like a statesman than a head chopper.
I think there's maybe a 20% chance of that happening, so we have to wait and see if that happens.
But right now, the PR is really good.
This is terrific.
You're getting rid of a brutal dictator.
The whole name of the game, Judge, is Israel.
You can't look at U.S. policy or U.K. policy towards Syria without realizing that Israel is driving its interests are paramount in our policymakers' thinking.
Sir John Sawyers, the recently retired head of MI6.
Recently characterized all of this as a surprise to everyone.
Cut number four, Chris.
Well, I think it was a surprise to everyone, Trevor.
It probably came as a surprise to Tahrir Hasham, the group you're calling HTS, which had been the main rebel group involved in this march on Damascus.
I don't think they expected to go so far, so fast.
I think we're all surprised at how the regime forces have just completely collapsed, even those most loyal to the regime and closest to the regime.
Yes, it is a surprise.
It's not a failure of intelligence.
It's a surprise to everyone.
Was the American government caught by surprise, or was this orchestrated by Amos Hochstein?
Did he know what he was doing when he negotiated the so-called ceasefire between Hezbollah and Israel?
Well, begging the forgiveness of my Irish grandmother.
I totally agree this time with the head of British intelligence.
Your Irish grandmother would probably not forgive you for that, but go ahead.
Once he's right, he's not spending it.
One interesting thing about that interview is prior to that, he says, you know, for 30 years, the Western's been involved there and all that stuff, and the French certainly have.
Well, actually, it's not 30 years.
Subtract 20. Subtract 1953 when, as I said before, the Brits and the Americans deposed the freely elected government, the only Persian government that was freely elected in three ages, okay, deposed them.
That goes back, well, do the math, 1953 and 2024.
So the British and the U.S. and the French here in Syria have been deeply involved.
The notion that they didn't know how corrupt, how sequestered, how out of the picture Assad was, well, if they didn't, that's a black mark on them because they damn well ought to have known that.
Explain to me the involvement of Turkey and whether Turkey is now adverse to Russia with respect to the toppling of Assad.
The Turks double-crossed the Russians and the Iranians.
They have this Astana group.
They met just a couple weeks ago, and they were double-crossed by Turkey.
Now, this is not the first time Turkey double-crossed folks.
But, you know, the equities here remind me of trying to do a ceasefire in Syria back in, well, 2016 or so, when John Kerry was given.
Given the order to work out something with Sergei Lavrov, okay?
They worked for 11 months and they put a ceasefire in.
What happened?
U.S. Air Force violated the ceasefire by bombing fixed Syrian army positions nine days later.
End of ceasefire.
Now, the reason I mention that is because I was at an Atlantic Council meeting.
Back then.
And I heard John Kerry, two days after he arrived back in Washington, and I printed this out because it really bears repeating.
Very brief, this is what Kerry said.
He was asked by Steve Clemens, a good interviewer.
He said, look, how do you explain?
How do you explain this thing?
And you said you could align things.
And here's what Kerry said, quote, Syria is as complicated as anything I've seen in public life.
In the sense that there are probably six wars going on at the same time.
Kurd against Kurd, Kurd against Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sunni, Shia, everybody against ISIL, people against Assad, Nusrah.
Well, Nusrah now has H. T.S., right?
Nusra.
This is a mixed-up sectarian and civil war with strategic and prosecutors, and so it's very, very difficult.
Get this, Judge.
It's very, very difficult to align all those forces.
Well, who gave Ciceri the notion that he could align all these forces?
Nobody can align all these forces, not even Erdogan in Turkey.
It's going to be bedlam there.
And who profits from Bedlam in Syria, as I mentioned before.
Netanyahu does, and this is a big win for him, and a big reverse, not only for Iran, but for those who are trying to do more sensible things, like Russia.
And Russia, as I say, has now folded them.
They've given Assad refuge and political asylum, I suppose, in Russia.
But that's about all they're going to do about this.
They're folding their cards.
They're going to concentrate on Ukraine.
What is American intel doing in Syria now?
Because it's a state of chaos and intermissing warfare.
There was effectively no government, no matter what Jelani claims to be the head of.
Well, I'm sure they have somebody, not a US case officer, most likely, but somebody close to Jelani.
And they're showing him the Washington Post and the New York Times.
Hey, look, you're a peacemaker here now.
Don't chop any heads off just yet.
You're a diversity guy now, okay?
And so, please, can you live this just for a couple of months, weeks at least?
And I don't know if that's going to work because he's in charge of the head choppers.
Now, could he change?
Could he do a little rapprochement with Israel?
Well, Jelani, I'm told, means that he comes from the Golan Heights, okay?
So he has some history with Israel.
Who knows?
It's possible, but not very likely at all.
We're in for bedlam there, and as I say the third time, chaos is exactly what Israel wants.
No arms are going to get through by land or by sea or by air to Hezbollah.
That's going to be a disaster for them.
What is the status of Turkey with respect to BRICS?
I would imagine they're going to give up on that because Putin will say no.
Well, they won't give up.
Erdogan never gives up.
But there are powerful forces, not only Russia but China, that really look askance on this double-crossing.
And I think it's going to make it very difficult for Turkey to become a full member of BRICS.
Very difficult.
Very difficult indeed.
What will this do for Iran's nuclear program?
Do they have more of an incentive?
You know, Judge, that's a really tough, that's the best question to ask.
The answer is yes, they have more incentive.
But there is this fatwa, you know, this religious edict.
That means something.
It's also the case that as soon as they start developing a nuclear weapon to put on one of these missiles, we'll know about it.
So will the IAEA.
Everyone's going to know about it.
And so will Israel be justified in saying, "Okay, now we have to zap them and you're going to help us, President Trump." Well, justified or not, they're likely to say that.
So the prospect of a wider regional war is even greater now, now that Iran feels with great justification that it has no cords in Syria and the resistance, the arc of resistance.
Why did Hamas praise the departure of Assad?
Wouldn't they want him there to continue the supply route to Hezbollah?
Well, that's a good question.
I don't really know.
But, you know, when you have a winner and you see what's happened, it's easy enough to applaud what happened rather than be a negative person.
Incur the wrath of those people now in power.
And sadly, Jalani and his group, HTS, are now in power.
A direct derivative of al-Qaeda, al-Nusra.
I mean, the same people, for God's sake.
Same people who fought against us in Iraq and Afghanistan and elsewhere.
So it's a sorry pass of events here, but we've got to deal with it.
The Russians have already decided to fold their cards.
We're going to fold ours because we're joined at the hip with Israel.
Does this event or series of events in Syria over the weekend encourage the neocon mentality in the American deep state to want to do more of this?
Well, I'm sure, you know, they feel vindicated.
You know, $5 billion is a lot of money, but look what we got.
You know, what we got is chaos.
That's what we wanted.
That's what the Israelis wanted.
Yeah, there'll be more of this.
I mean, if you had somebody in charge of the intelligence community that used their prerogative to approve or disapprove covert action operations that make no sense, oh, that would be different, but you don't have that.
You don't have Bill Burns sticking up for anything.
You don't have Averill Haynes aware of what's going on.
And that leads me to some ray of hope here.
If Tulsi Gabbard gets confirmed, I think she's got her head screwed on right.
And although she's been far more pro-Israel knee-jerk than I would have liked, I think she'd be a leavening That's
an easy one, Judge.
The chances of that are 1%.
But, I mean...
What they're trying to do now is sabotage her big time.
You have this guy, what's his name?
Or this Yale professor who professes to know all about Ukraine and so forth.
They wrote a dissertation on Ukraine.
His name is Timothy Snyder.
He did a hit piece that won't quit on Tulsi Gabbard just over the weekend.
As a matter of fact, he and I had a debate on Amy Goodman almost exactly 20, And I remember that distinctly because when I mentioned the coup in Kyiv, he said, what coup?
And I said, well, haven't you heard the intercept between Nuland and Jeffrey Pyatt, U.S. ambassador in Kyiv?
And he says, well, is that all you got?
Is that all you got?
So I challenged him to debate in you, and I've asked Amy Goodman's people to set us up so that he and I can go at it on the relative merits of having Tulsi Gabbard as Director of National Intelligence.
I haven't heard back from either yet.
I wonder if she'll filter the intel the way the head of CIA has repeatedly filtered it so as to please the recipient, the president, rather than fidelity to the truth.
Right on Syria.
You know, if it were someone else, I would say she doesn't have the guts or he doesn't have the guts.
There's a chance she does.
I've briefed her personally.
She asks the right questions, seem interested in the right things.
She's really good on Ukraine.
She's lousy on Israel.
But, you know, when you come into power and you have You have a chance to influence good decisions.
Your patriotism tends to come into view here.
And you might just say, well, Mr. President, you don't want to hear this.
But this is the way it is.
This is how I see it.
You can listen to these other guys if you want.
But here's why I think the way I think.
And there's a chance that Trump, for the reasons that he appointed her, would be helped and well served by a head of intelligence who tells the truth and doesn't shape things so that he or she ingratiates herself with the president.
Thank you.
Thank you for your time.
Thank you for your thoughts.
We'll see you.
God only knows what will happen in the next four days.
We'll see you at the end of the week with Larry Johnson.
Thanks, Judge.
Of course.
All the best, my friend.
The aforesaid Larry Johnson right here.
At 11 o 'clock, Pepe Escobar at noon, Professor Jeffrey Sachs at 2 p.m.
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