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Aug. 28, 2024 - Judging Freedom - Judge Andrew Napolitano
25:21
Dennis Kucinich: Where Is the Peace Party?
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Hi, everyone.
Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom.
Today is Thursday, August 29, 2024.
My dear friend, my longtime friend, former Congressman Dennis Kucinich joins us now.
Congressman Kucinich, it's always a pleasure, my dear friend.
Thank you for joining us.
You, as a Democrat, are the...
Either you have left the Democratic Party or they have left you.
What has become of the Democratic Party which seems intent on fighting wars in which the United States has no national security interest?
This is a concern of mine.
More recently, we saw the effort to squelch the objections of members of the Progressive Caucus within the Democratic Party to the United States policy with respect to Russia.
There was an attempt to actually try to end that war with Ukraine.
And the Democratic Party bosses basically slapped down those progressive members.
They withdrew the letter.
And when you look at the convention, one of the things that I thought was remarkable about the convention speech of Vice President Harris was, if anybody listened closely, was the bellicose nature of an attempt to Combine patriotism with militarism.
And once that happens, the higher cognitive functions begin to fade in favor of the lower limbic system, where people start to get deeply fearful and close ranks, and it's a propaganda tactic.
Our government needs to move away from an American imperium.
Our government needs to move away from the idea that America, over all the other countries in the world, for us, it might seem that way, except for one thing.
We can't afford it.
And not only that, it leads to disaster.
Every empire in world history, as it extended itself, endangered its own citizens.
So we're at that point right now, Judge.
And, you know, you can look at the 800 bases around the world.
You can look at the United States' presence.
In the Gulf right now, where our soldiers and sailors are sitting ducks, we have laid this kindling wood of potential wars everywhere.
And it's time to pull back, but unfortunately, it's full speed ahead right now with the party.
That's very sad.
Were you at the DNC in Chicago last week?
No, as an independent candidate, what I've been doing, Judge, is to seek to find a way to bridge the differences between the two parties and not be in one camp or the other.
I just call them as I see them.
So I have referred to Donald Trump and Kamala Harris as Tweedledee and Tweedledum on the issues that matter.
War and peace, universal surveillance, extraordinary debt.
They're both very bellicose, as you pointed out.
Why did you leave the Democratic Party?
Because of its bellicosity on war?
Well, it's not so much that I left as I really declared my independence.
You know, and I did it without some broadside against the To me, it was a call to make a higher statement of what our country needs to be and to place country above party.
Country above party.
And that's the nature of my public service.
And the Democratic Party has...
Instead of addition and multiplication, it's about subtraction and division.
And I'm looking for ways to bridge that.
it's not just a gap, it's a gulf right now.
When I was in Congress the last time, Judge, I never, as a Democrat, I never...
I work with people on both sides of the aisle.
I practice what one could call the science of human relations.
It's important to try to see people as they are, to find out about them personally, because people are much more deeper than their labels.
And we end up with these brickbats without really getting to know each other.
How did Congress get so divisive to the point where it's a mortal sin?
For a Republican to vote on the side of the Democrats and a Democrat to vote on the side of the Republicans.
I mean, they practically took Thomas Massey's office away from him when he voted against mass surveillance.
Well, first of all, Tom Massey's a great patriot.
And I'd love to serve with him in Congress because, well, there might be some issues that we don't agree with.
Tom Massey's a patriot.
And yes, people who go against the grain, you might find that you meet with the disfavor of the party bosses.
But our country has to be...
We've got some serious challenges here at home which are not being met because the debate just degenerates into a partisan fight that is often pointless, but it's about control.
You know, you don't often hear Democratic officeholders speaking the way you do.
And I don't mean this question to be offensive, but when you left the Democratic Party, were they glad to see you go?
Well, let me just state something.
I mean, for me, there was no formal au revoir, okay?
I didn't say, you know, I'm out of here.
Because I still work with Democrats and I work with Republicans.
So I took a different approach, Judge, which is that I declared my independence because I want to, as I mentioned earlier, put country above party.
And I just saw that the partisan conflict was not serving America.
I know how to bring people together.
The very nature of partisanship Let me give you an example.
I think you and your viewers will find this interesting.
So in Congress, in the Democratic caucus, when they have their meetings weekly, they talk about three things.
The first thing they talk about is the latest polls.
The second thing they talk about is how much money has been raised.
And the third thing they talk about is how bad the Republicans are.
Now, the Republican conference, I've heard, is a little bit different.
They talk about three things, though.
First, the latest polls.
Second, how much money's been raised.
And third, how bad the Democrats are.
That's the difference between the two parties.
You, as I understand it, Congressman Kucinich, are seeking your old seat, and you're running, by old, I mean the one you formerly held.
You're running as an independent.
Are you running against a Republican and against a Democrat?
And can, if so, can an independent actually win in this day and age without an organized party support?
Well, we're going to find that out.
But the answer in the 7th Congressional District, I think, will be yes.
And I'll tell you why.
First of all, as you point out, the district that I'm running in People are familiar with my name.
It's not just that I've been on the ballot many times, but I've been involved in public service on things that really matter to people.
And my office was very service-oriented.
I've got the name recognition, the on-site recognition.
The district's 80 miles long.
And wherever I've gone in the district, people recognize me because of the years of service.
So I think that I have a pretty good chance there.
Of course, the Republican incumbent is someone who has been in a year and a half now in Congress.
I don't take that lightly.
But I've been able to get Republican votes.
I mean, let me give you an example.
You know, when I was elected mayor of Cleveland years ago, I defeated the Republican incumbent.
You were the boy mayor of Cleveland.
Yes, that's what I was told.
People would come into my office, they would still be looking for the mayor, okay?
Really, really.
So I got elected mayor, and I actually won, defeating both political parties.
Later on, when I ran for the state Senate, I was one of the few Democrats in the country who defeated a Republican incumbent in a state election.
And then later on, two years later, in the running for U.S. Congress, I was able to defeat a Republican incumbent who was part of Newt Gingrich's leadership team.
So and the reason why I've had success among Republicans is that people know that I say what I think, that no one has any strings attached to me, that We don't have to agree with each other and everything, but if we have a dedication to America, first and foremost, our dedication must be to our own country.
And if we're really dedicated to our own country, we're not going to be sanctioning these wars going on all over the world.
How do you, Denis Kucinich, defy the Israel lobby and defy the military-industrial complex?
Two of the major driving forces for the war party, the uniparty, that comprises, you know this number better than I, 85-90% of the Congress.
How do you define them?
Okay, get ready.
With poetry.
With poetry?
Oh yes, I did say that, Judge.
There's a poet by the name of Shelley who wrote an epic poem called Prometheus Unbound.
Yes.
And in the latter part of that, it talks about defying power which seems omnipotent.
Defying power which seems omnipotent.
And he goes on to write, this is what it means to be joyous and free.
And so, in life, I'm not talking about politics here.
I'm talking about life.
We must be fearless.
Courage opens all doors.
But as a practical matter, the Israel lobby probably is funding one or both of your opponents.
The military-industrial complex probably employs people whose votes you are seeking as well as funding one or both of your opponents.
How do you, Dennis Kucinich, non-Republican, ex-Democrat, defy that?
Financially.
Well, you know, I'm raising money on the internet.
This is something important.
People can go to kusinich.com and help out.
You know, of course, you're right.
I mean, you need money to run a campaign.
But, you know, I don't seek to make enemies of anyone.
And if they think that they can try to squeeze me out by raising money for someone else, well, I'm going to, you know, I'll take up the challenge.
But if you really stand for peace, and I do.
You have to be careful about how you characterize people are going after you.
Do I have disagreements with AIPAC on Israel?
Yes.
Matter of fact, I believe that what they're doing is counterproductive to the survival of Israel.
And I've said that.
Do I call down hellfire?
No, it's silly.
You have to...
I mean, what's happening in Gaza is genocide.
Pure and simple.
I mean, you don't need to be familiar with international law.
You just need to be a human being to understand that it's wrong to try to wipe out another human being based on their ethnicity or their political standing.
You can't do that.
So, you know, hopefully the society is going to evolve beyond this.
But in the meantime, It's time to seal the borders, stop the rising deficit, cut it back to make sure that we end the spying, stop the censorship.
We have to reclaim the essence of what it is to be an American.
We have to go back to those...
And we're losing that.
We're absolutely losing it.
So I'm running as an independent to make sure that people know that we're not stuck with two choices which seem to be polar opposites, but also present the possibility of a unit party.
I try to step out of the polarity, Judge.
And when you step out of polarity, you create new possibilities.
Before you were running for Congress as an independent, you were for a while, for a long time, the chair of the election campaign of Robert F. Kennedy Jr., then running as an independent.
He may still be running as an independent because I think he can't get his name off of the ballot in some states.
But he now is openly and ostentatiously endorsing Donald Trump.
What is your opinion of all this?
Bobby, those of us who know him, can tip the scales?
Well, let me share with you a little bit of history, recent history here.
Robert Kennedy started his campaign as a Democrat, a Kennedy Democrat nonetheless.
And sought to run within the Democratic Party.
He was pushed away by the DNC.
The campaign was thwarted by the DNC.
The DNC thwarted anybody who wanted to challenge their hegemony over the Democratic nomination process.
And so when the campaign came to a realization that there was no path to the Democratic nomination because of the way the process was rigged.
You know, Robert Kennedy decided to take another path.
Now that he has joined up with President Trump, you know, of course it's going to help the Trump campaign.
Now, you know, if you do a post hoc analysis after the election, people will figure out how much.
But since this is not a national election, but an election that depends on the electoral votes of state by state.
I think that you'll find that people close ranks around Trump with the help of Robert Kennedy and that he will help in certain states tip the balance.
Can we quantify it right now?
No.
You know, even polls have margin of error, as you can't really tell.
However, I know from the early part of the campaign, Judge, that Republicans have an affinity towards Robert F. Kennedy.
And I think one of the reasons is that some of them at one point in their lives were Democrats.
I know that for a fact in my own old district where people who were Democrats, and you could say Kennedy Democrats, slowly began to migrate over to the Republican Party because they felt that they were not regarded on issues that meant something to the working class, trade issues, NAFTA.
The General Agreement on Tariff and Trade, China Trade, and others, they really felt that they weren't being represented by the National Democratic Party.
Do you know what, if any, conditions RFK extracted from Trump, for example, stopping domestic spying, which the president can do with a phone call?
The NSA is in the Defense Department.
The president commands the Defense Department.
Pardoning Edward Snowden, pardoning Julian Assange, even though he's already pleaded guilty to a nonsense charge.
Stopping the CIA from conducting covert wars and coups.
All of these things on which Kennedy campaigned.
Releasing the JFK and RFK assassination files.
Trump has promised to do much of this, and it didn't fulfill the promises in his first campaign.
Do you know?
What conditions RFK extracted from Trump for this endorsement?
Well, I will say that I left the Kennedy campaign in October of last year.
However, and being an informed and close observer, the things that you just articulated are matters that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has repeatedly brought forward.
And I have no doubt that these are things that he has discussed with President Trump.
And, of course, President Trump is fully aware of the consequences of government spying, of the use of the justice system for political purposes.
These are things that are not new to him.
And I think that there's a meeting of the minds there.
Are they going to agree on everything?
No.
I mean, they had some disagreements that were expressed publicly.
But I think in these main critical issues that you just raised, there is a meeting of the minds.
As far as any deal, I'm not privy to anything like that.
And I've actually cautioned publicly about being very careful about quid pro quos.
Because you never know where the future is going to take anybody.
I mean, what does the Republican Party stand for today other than what Donald Trump wants at the moment?
At one point, they were pro-life.
Now he says he's in favor of At one point they were anti-war.
Now he is willing to fund genocide in Gaza.
At one point they were in favor of balanced budgets.
Now he wants to borrow, borrow, borrow.
At one point they were against domestic spying.
He signed the extension of FISA and the Patriot Act.
I mean, this is not the Republican Party of Barry Goldwater when you and I came of age.
It's not the Republican Party of Ronald Reagan when it was at its zenith.
What is it today, other than whatever Trump wants at any given moment?
Well, you know, you raise a very critical question.
And it's not, you know, I mean, I can't speak for the Republican Party, but I can say this, that President Trump has never pretended to be an ideologue.
He's never pretended to a specific political philosophy.
He's a pragmatist.
He is a dealmaker.
This is what he does.
And I think that, I mean, I read his book, The Art of the Deal.
And that book, I think, is also should be read politically because he, he, He looks at everything.
Let's make a deal.
And so that kind of pragmatism may be off-putting to people.
At the same time, he has shown an ability to talk to people who others would not even think about talking to, such as the leader of North Korea.
As you point out, where's the core of the Republican Party?
Well, obviously, it's changed.
Where's the core of the Democratic Party?
It's changed.
We are in a period of transition where there is a crossover, and what people called Republicans years ago might seem more Democratic, but people called Democratic years ago may seem somewhat Republican.
Pointing out, Judge, that labels mean less today than they've ever meant, which is another reason why I'm running as an independent, because I'm giving people a chance to vote for themselves by saying, well, you vote for me, you don't have to worry about what a party's going to say.
You have a direct connection with me.
Parties are brokerages, essentially.
Right.
If people want to learn about your campaign or even contribute to it, Congressman Kucinich, where can they go and how can they do it?
Well, they can go to Kucinich.com.
Now, it's spelled K-U-C-I-N-I-C-H.
K-U-C-I-N-I-C-H.
Took me years to spell it.
And Kucinich.com, and you can make a contribution or you can help volunteer.
If you live in Ohio, you can come up and help in the campaign.
This is a people campaign.
I don't make any pretense about it.
The only interest group I have are the people, period.
And that's kind of where I've been all my life.
I've been independent by nature.
And in this campaign, I actually get a chance to officially be independent.
Congressman Kucinich, wishing you the best of success.
I would love you to be in the House of Representatives.
You'll be like my friend George Galloway in the House of Commons, driving the leadership of both parties crazy.
By reminding them that neither of them stand for the principles in the Constitution, even though all of them have taken an oath to do so.
All the best to you, Dennis.
Thank you very much for joining us.
Thanks so much, Your Honor.
Of course.
A very, very, very interesting person.
Dennis and I met at Fox News when I had my show there, and I decided to put him on the show with Ron Paul, just two people for the entire show.
It was the highest ratings the show ever had.
Coming up at 3 o 'clock this afternoon, Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson at 3.45.
We're pretending today is Friday because of commitments I have tomorrow.
At 3.45, the intelligence community wrap-up.
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