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June 26, 2025 - Jim Fetzer
55:45
Real Deal SPECIAL (25 June 2025): Bill Binney & Katherine Horton: UNDER FIRE!
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We go.
This is Jim Fetzer, your host on a real deal special event, one about which I have very mixed feelings because it concerns two of the people I most admire in the entirety of planet Earth.
Bill Benny, the NSA expert who exposed that no Russian hacking, it was all downloaded in those files by Seth Rich in real-time Eastern time zone for which he paid his life.
I strongly suspect John Podesta was behind it.
And Catherine Horton, who's led the fight against targeted individuals in the courts, especially in London.
They're both sensational, and they have been under attack themselves for punishing them for doing things they're not supposed to do.
I mean, it's a horrific story, and I believe the world needs to know what's going on.
Bill and Catherine, welcome to this Real Deal special.
And I wish it were under other circumstances, but we need to know what's been going on to you.
Ladies, first, Catherine, let me begin with you.
Bill, thank you very much.
It's also a huge honor to address your audience and you, Jim.
And we have some big breaking news because we have been working behind the scenes as much as we could.
But maybe your audience doesn't know, but Bill blew the whistle on mass surveillance, NSA mass surveillance.
NSA doesn't have a remit on spying on Americans inside the US, right?
Or anything.
Yeah.
And I blew the whistle.
I never worked for any organization.
I was a victim of the intelligence agencies.
And I blew the whistle as a civilian about the use of COVID, non-consensual chip implants in people.
I ran a scientific measurement at the Belgian University where victims came forward and we measured them with scientific devices and we could prove that electromagnetic frequencies, microwave frequencies in fact, were coming out of their bodies from these chips.
This was done in a shielded Faraday room.
It was done by a university specializing in electromagnetic measurements.
So I have the scientific proof that this is happening.
And in the process, I also found out that I am implanted too.
So I have chips all over my body.
Now, after that became known through these measurements, they activated the chips and started using them for remote control torture.
So I have since 2017 lived under continuous microchip torture and have experienced that in all its forms and everything that it can do.
So this is how the topic survived.
Bill is talking about NSA criminality, mass surveillance, what they're doing with these big data sets.
I'm talking about microchips and the other thing is directed energy weapons, the fastest growing segment of the arms market at the moment.
The official numbers pegged at $50 billion, but I think that's a gross underestimate.
They want to hide from people that directed energy weapons make classical weapons obsolete as good as because you can shoot through walls, through the ceiling, you can shoot the so-called pulsed energy projectile and kill somebody without leaving a bullet hole perfectly silently.
So this is basically the topics that we've been researching and talking publicly about, right?
You since what, 2000?
Well, I started in 2011.
Publicly, before it was 2011.
It was 2001.
Yeah, internally since 2001.
And when Edward Snowden blew the whistle, Bill could talk about his work publicly because Edward Snowden's material was the work that Bill did at NSA.
We should also say that your job was not to do mass surveillance on the population, but foreign hostile militaries.
That was the target.
Well, and criminal.
Criminals were all criminals.
And this was turned on the average citizen.
But anyway, so this is the groundwork for all your new listeners because your audience keeps growing all the time.
But now what we are fighting is that the mass surveillance that all of the emails are being recorded and read and actually acted upon, everybody's, is almost like an old hat after almost a quarter of a century, 24 years after you blew the whistle.
I can point out that's why the FBI had 250,000 violations of the FISA law last year.
250,000.
And that number is small.
I'm telling you.
Yeah, it's what they dare to admit.
Yeah.
That's it.
It's such a privilege to have the opportunity to speak with the two of you.
Bill, I've been worried about this palantir program, Trump giving access to Social Security, private government information.
It appears to be a massive AI op to isolate the dissenters, the critics.
And I foresee we may be in a situation of the checkist where the dissenters are going to be literally taken out, just as they did after the Bolshevik Revolution.
I mean, people weren't sufficiently enthusiastic about the new regime, were taken to cellars.
They were stripped naked and got a bullet in the back of the head.
And it sounds drastic, but honestly, I foresee that coming to the USA.
Am I wrong?
There's somebody here.
Unfortunately, yeah.
Well, let's say the foundation to make that happen is here.
Well, we're lifting it.
I've been dropping the head just half an hour ago.
Thank you very much.
For specific targets.
I mean, for the general population to do it to everybody simultaneously.
That's not here quite yet, but the foundation is laid to make that happen.
Otherwise, they can target individuals like us and a certain number of them in the thousands, probably, but not.
Okay, this is my field.
I don't know what the number is.
Yeah, I do know.
So from conservative estimates, from the people who went public about it or approached the few health organizations, the so-called targeted individuals, I don't know who coined that term, but these are basically people in modern-day concentration camps.
Directed energy weapons are erected next to their home.
It may be an apartment or a detached house.
And they are being gunned 24-7 with directed energy weapons.
It's a concentration camp.
In addition, the directed energy weapons rely on covert non-consensual implants to persect the targeting and track the person inside the building and ping weapon beams off the chips for accuracy.
That's, I think, better than a centimeter.
So I don't know what that's an inch, but it's better than an inch.
So with very high precision targeting, they can do that by using the chips that the victim doesn't know they have as a coordinate system.
So the number of people who came forward in the US and joined a victim organization called Targeted Justice were, last time I asked one of the board members a number of years ago, was between 50 and 60,000.
Now, I didn't join the organization.
You didn't join them.
There are countless others.
So if you estimate what, one in 10 victims, maybe one in 100 joins that particular organization, you can scale it up and you're already at 500,000 minimum.
I think one in 10 would be very optimistic that they would join, right?
So we're talking half a million of people who are already being tortured to death in a very tailored manner.
So that's the numbers right there, you know?
I think the number under a Cheka's version could be 20, 10, 20 million Americans could be taken out.
I mean, if they really, they've got all the information.
They know who's got the least doubts about any aspect of what's going on politically.
They know it all.
That's inescapable, it appears.
And you are both paying vitally for your efforts to expose the truth.
Bill, am I not right that you were hit with flesh-eating bacteria?
I mean, give me a break.
How awful is that?
Tell us about it.
Yeah, that was, I've had, I think it's now 12 separate inspections, spells, flesh-eating inspections.
Over the, I guess the last one was two years ago.
Yeah, two years ago.
Over two or three years ago was the last one.
And they started back in 2008.
So I had 12 over that 2008 to say 2022 period of time.
And the first one I got, a friend of mine who used to be in military intelligence in Vietnam, he was in Vietnam.
He said, he said he implied right away I was being used as a biological attack on me.
And you should also say that the first, very first sledgehamming bacterial infection started months after the fake FBI raid on you.
Actually, it started almost right after the raid on me in 2007 and 2008, it started.
Do you imagine they planted these?
Well, yes.
The infection started, I guess, in the bottom of my foot.
I couldn't see it, you know?
So infected your shoes.
Well, I think we figured out, I figured out how they did that, which is why they stopped.
Because I witnessed, I think, a total of the last five or six.
Bill kept having them.
And at some point, I said, Bill, I think they are breaking into the house at night and injecting you with this stuff.
Because when you just inject something with an extra, extra small syringe, you can't even see the needle mark necessarily.
And you wouldn't know to look for it.
So I said what we need to do to make this stop is bolt our bedroom from the inside.
So we put on a big old bolt and we bolted down everything around us so that we would bunker down every night.
And voila, the flesh-eating bacterial infection stopped for good.
Wow.
Yep.
For the first time in what, you had two, three years without them after he had pretty much one every year since 2008.
Yep.
It was constant.
I mean, some of these were really bad.
I mean, they were breathing up in the legs and everything.
Yeah, well, Bill, in two separate independent flesh-eating bacterial infections, he lost both his lower legs independently, one in 2010 and one in 2013.
So if people just do an analysis, and Bill's home was super clean, it's not like he would be out on a farm, you know, wrestling in mud.
So the probability to get a flesh-eating bacterial infection is vanishingly small.
To then lose a limb is extremely rare and unfortunate.
But to lose two limbs and then to go on to have another 10 separate individual distinct infections, that's not by chance.
Yeah, exactly.
So pure chance is not the hypothesis that fits.
It's actually malicious.
It's a straightforward random probability calculation.
Yes, yes.
That was just the beginning because when Bill and I met, I came over to work with him because he had done a survey of the targeted individuals and so had I. And we were trying to compare notes.
That was at the start of 2020 and they canceled my flight during COVID.
Bill put me up and that's how we got together.
We got very close and we ended up married.
But, you know, when we first started off, what was I about to say?
I wanted to say something about, oh yes, when we first met, Bill was in hospital and I flew over in a panic because I was convinced they were going to take him out.
There was a big conference where General Flynn was speaking, other well-known people were speaking, and a sign was put up that was also posted on social media saying that you are not going to speak because you had a medical incident.
So I asked Kirk Weeby, Bill's friend, what had happened.
And he said, oh, he had a heart attack or a heart incident.
And Kirk said, oh, but don't worry, they're just going to agree to put a stand and he's okay.
Well, a couple of hours later, he told me, oh, they are going to do a quadruple hard bypass.
Well, if you go from a stent to a quadruple hard bypass, something about the imaging doesn't add up, right?
When you decide one or the other.
So I thought, oh my gosh, they are going to kill him.
That's the plan.
So I booked my flight as soon as I got that email.
And the intel agencies actually blocked me from coming over.
Then I had this strange woman come into my hospital room.
Where did you come from?
Yeah, but we'd be working together online, but I don't think you'd actually met the in person.
We hadn't Skyped each.
It was a guardian angel.
But you know, it's actually, it was quite serious because I booked a flight, I'd never been to the US, and then I realized, oh, damn, I need a visa.
So I did that online.
Thankfully, DHS gave it to me within half an hour.
But the next morning, I booked the flight for the next morning.
And I booked it such that all the seats around where I sat were already taken.
So I thought, oh, this is very good because they can't plant any one of their stupid agents next to me.
So what happened is next morning I arrived at the airport and in Zurich airport to just feed in your boarding card and go through.
And I fed my in my boarding card and it returned it and blocked me.
And I couldn't go through.
They had blocked me from boarding the flight.
So I went through the whole shenanigans of rebooking it the next day, but I knew that they had done it because they couldn't interrogate me on the flight.
They couldn't plant anybody next to me.
So what happened?
I went on the next flight the next day and I knew that a very nice woman or guy is going to turn up who's going to be extremely chatty.
And I thought, oh, good, I've got eight hours to download everything I know into their brain.
And that's exactly what I did.
And these people were definitely FBI.
I told them about chips and I said, by the way, the reason why I'm going to talk to the retired technical director of NSA is because he's done the survey about victims.
And it turns out that 70 to 80 percent of the victims are actually women who are being tortured and raped by remote control.
He couldn't care less.
And then I looked at him and I said, but the way the program started is that they first started with the federal agents and implanted them first because they had access to their medical file.
So if anything goes wrong, they would, you know, take the day off work maybe, right?
So the employer, the FBI, knew immediately and they had direct feedback.
Plus, agents sometimes also give like a medical release, right?
So they were the perfect category for medical trafficking.
And as soon as I said that, this guy turned completely pale and was just in such shock.
At some point, he said, I'm so sorry.
I have to watch a movie.
He needed a break from this, right?
So I'm like, yeah.
He realized he himself was the charger.
He was a victim, yes.
And I was telling him all about it.
But then later, we met in the hospital room and I immediately said to you, Bill, I think you're implanted.
Yeah.
Because I noticed we were just talking and chatting and he'd come out of the operation fine, thank goodness.
But every time we were just joking and laughing, his face would contort and he would reach down to his leg and there would be pain.
And he said to me that's phantom pain from the amputations.
And I said, no, Bill, there's a pattern to this.
Every time we kind of connect and laugh about something, they hit you with pain.
Bill, I think it's a chip.
And I was right.
I proved it to you then later.
Yes, head to toe.
Well, I, you know, it's very, I mean, I suffer pain almost every day, you know, on both legs, sometimes alternating from one to the other.
But it's a pattern on the leg.
It's four points on either side, two points on either side of the stump below the knee on both legs.
And I'm under pain relief, you know, with a doctor, and he said, you've never seen this kind of thing before.
It's not something that's very common at all.
And so finally, one of my doctor allowed me to get a x-ray of it.
He had me x-ray and we found a shadow and exactly where one of the points was where exactly you could point to and say, there's the pain origin.
So there's a shadow of something in there.
And we tried to get doctors to take it out, you know, just to see what it was.
And we couldn't get anybody.
I mean, we tried three or four of them.
And each time, you know, when we said we think, well, there might be something in there causing the pain from an external source.
They just shut up.
Everybody just stopped.
Well, many victims try to have to swim hold and there's an entire procedure they go through.
So doctors, first of all, spend months, two years lying and saying, no, that's fine.
You're just imagining it.
If you then insist on scientific evidence like an x-ray and there's something, they'll say, oh, that's just an artifact of the imaging.
If you then get a second image, which again will take you months, two years to actually get a doctor to sign off on, and the shadow is in the same place and it's clear it's a foreign body, then they will start again lying, try to portray you as crazy, get you institutionalized, sectioned.
It will get vicious.
The doctors will even involve the police and force section you on the lie.
So that's what every victim pretty much goes through.
So even though there are hundreds of thousands of victims in Europe and in America, only a handful ever had any chips removed.
And some of those are documented here in this book called Global Brain Chip and Mesogens by Dr. Hildegard Staninger.
This book is what 16 bucks off Amazon.
But the important thing is that their photographs are the chips that have been removed from people.
So this thing here is a nasal bulb implant.
And the pink stuff over here is a brain implant.
Now, it looks like a goopy organic structure, but this thing is actually hard as a diamond and has a melting point of, I forgot, what is it?
300 degrees.
Yeah, 300 degrees.
So this is, or even more than that, something insane.
So this is not organic.
It's not organic.
Yeah.
But Dr. Kilda got sonages.
But there's an entire selection of many others.
And Dr. Hildegard Staninger has X-ray fluorescence measurements.
I'm not sure they can be seen here.
But basically, all I'm saying is that for 16 bucks, people who want to know if this stuff is real.
That's fantastic.
You know, thinking about your situation, you're talking about somebody actually coming into the bedroom and giving Bill injections.
I liked how you secured it all.
I was thinking you must be in some kind of gated community initially.
I mean, are you a situation where your home is vulnerable to the public easily?
Yep.
Yeah.
But even in gated communities, what people don't realize was that the FBI has been hiring people on the inside of any sort of community already for centuries, decades.
The Intel community is older than the, you know, the CIN and the FBI.
So you very quickly find out that wherever you go, there are always insiders who will try to harm you.
Because they got activated.
Oh, Intel Pro.
Yeah.
So we found that when Bill had to go to hospital with his infections, the doctors tried to harm him that I had to stop.
So one guy claimed he has to have another amputation above the knee.
And I just called that.
You know, I said, hey, give me the image and that proves that.
And I never saw the guy ever again.
Well, no, he did show you the one thing that totally dark screen.
You couldn't see.
It was a homogeneous image.
But you see, there it is.
Yeah.
And unfortunately, I worked in medical physics after I had particle physics.
And I looked at this and I said, what this shows is what's scientifically known as a fuck all.
And he said, oh, there's a color image.
And I said, print me out the color image.
Like, show me.
And that's what we did.
But for you, they'd be taking more and more and more of Bill.
I mean, he didn't have any legs at all.
I mean, how crazy is that?
Yeah.
And also to walk as an amputee below the knee is easier than if you were amputated above the knee.
That would be just total debilitation.
I always keep thinking of epithets on my tombstone.
I rest in pieces or I'm not altogether here.
Yeah.
I'm still out there, you know?
Yeah, but in all this, so this is just the chips.
And all this is highly topical right now.
The chips is highly topical.
Directed energy weapons are highly topical because right now.
Yes, sorry.
That's the point.
We have a spectrum analyzer going up to four gigahertz.
And we know that we've been looking at that spectrum both here in this state and also in Maryland when we lived there.
And there were two prominent signals that were at a minus 40 dB, up to minus 35 dBm, well above about 100 times stronger than anything else in the environment.
Those two signals, one was at between 1.755 and 1.78 gigahertz, which is assigned to the military of the military use for electronic warfare.
And the other one was between 2.9 and 3.2 gigahertz.
And also above three.
Yeah, 2.9, 3.2.
Are they basically wanting to cook?
Both military, by the way.
Line of sight, military.
I mean, are you in an oven, in effect, an electronic oven?
We have no idea why they're...
To radiate to them.
Well, there are two applications.
There are two applications.
Number one, these microwave frequencies, especially at this intensity, it's what's called through-the-wall radar.
There used to be on YouTube a presentation by Lawrence Livermore Lab about a little device that it was like a microwave radar sort of thing.
And they were advertising that you could put this device on the back of a pickup truck and get a floor plan of a high-rise.
Now, what they were not saying in that presentation is nobody needs a floor plan of a high-rise because when you built it, you have the floor plan, right?
But the point is that through this, you can monitor people inside.
You can see them in very high definition inside.
So, for example, when businessmen have affairs, for example, hotels, you can see what everybody is doing and where everybody is, and you can blackmail everybody.
So, one hotel, a very popular hotel with businessmen, is going to be a gold mine with this technology.
So that's number one.
So through the wall, radar is being done continually because I am being shot and gunned and it's following me around specifically.
So one application of these high-intensity microwaves is the radar sort of device.
The second one is at these intensities, you can interface with somebody's non-consensual chip implants.
And these, the collection of chips is known as a body area network.
And on my website, there's a scientific article about what frequencies you can use to communicate with these chips.
And they are Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, cell soul frequencies, depending on the chip.
So another thing that's happening is that this thing that's being blasted, and it's coming from above, so it's probably from a drone, right, that we cannot see, is tracking us inside, shooting me and torturing Bill.
Yeah, I was wondering if this required a field team on the ground, but you're saying it's done by a drone.
I think that's...
Yeah, victims.
I think it can also come through the internet and through the network.
No, no, hang on.
It's radiating from a tower.
Well, just a moment.
Just a moment.
So he's the mathematician, okay?
I'm the physicist.
Don't listen to him on this topic.
Listen to me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We have these conversations all the time.
So, okay.
So the way it works, right?
We have spectrum analyzers and we have directional antennae.
And through various means, we can show that certain things are coming from above.
Now, what you can do is you can have a transmitter somewhere in the landscape and just blast the entire home with microwaves and then just do your actual monitoring using that source from wherever you are, from above, from a neighbor's house, from wherever you want to be.
You just have these things blasting through.
But we have another technology.
So there's so many modern technologies being used on the average victim.
It's mind-blowing.
So you don't just have the chips, you have the through-the-wall radar, you have the torture signal being blasted.
And then the stuff that is particularly targeted at me is a completely new, not just technology, but classified physics, which is called pulsed energy projectiles.
Now, it's an electromagnetic wave as far as I can tell, but it is a waveform that has a longitudinal impact.
Now, by Maxwell's equations, and a photon or an electron, electromagnetic wave doesn't have a long, so a longer line of travel, it doesn't have any force fields.
There is no momentum along there.
The electric and magnetic field lines are always at 90 degrees to the direction of travel so if the photon is going this way the electric field is up and then the other the b field is pointing in another direction by the sorry it's a right hand rule but it doesn't matter right it's always electric and magnetic fields are always in a transverse plane so as a result you cannot shoot um a very intense laser beam at a sheet of metal and dent it you can't but
these waves can one one pulsed energy projectile was shot through the ceiling and the upper floors of bill's old house and we had put down shielding on the floor and removed our bedroom into the basement and they actually shot two holes into sheet metal so there was a heck almighty bang like an explosion and we went upstairs and there were these couple of millimeters wide holes in brand new um metal shielding those
are actually magnetic white holes they have alumbacks well what would happen if they hit you guys as physical beings i mean i think it's instant death or it's like an aneurysm or maybe a stroke i'm not sure what it would look like met medically but i presume an aneurysm is the closest thing and people would die of brain breathing one of my favorite movies enemy of the state you know gene hackman lives in a faraday cage i mean he's built one to protect
himself from outside interference when it's breached he's got to blow the whole facility up but i mean do you need to be living in a faraday cage in fact in fact sorry you want to say something i want to finish this whole topic then i'm back to you so in a faraday cage you can block classical electromagnetic waves you could block the through the wall radar you could block the the chip signal if they are using classical waves but you cannot and i tested that block the pulsed
energy projectiles because they are these novel waveforms so i was shot in the face from a neighbor's balcony that had a weapon planted and that pulse went through a brick wall a solid good european brick wall and several layers of metal including sheet metal and it still shot me in the face so these health energy projectiles eventually i got uh i got one guy in the german military slash intelligence agencies to open up a bit after
a lot of work and he said to his knowledge it takes really something like 12 inch of steel to really block the more energetic ones now that's the lining of the nuclear power station you know the inner fusion chamber of a nuclear power station might have something like that but it's basically physically impossible for civilians to shield and that's what i experienced so in switzerland i was being gunned by the military from a drone from above and i went to um the equivalent of loads or
home depot and i bought these layers of aluminum and steel and copper and anything you could get in the end i had 20 layers on these two cardboard boxes balanced over my head where i thought anymore and if this thing slips i'll decapitate myself in my speed but they still shot through so it is physically impossible for civilians to shield themselves from these modern classified weapons the only way is to have the drone shut the earth down shot
down or shut down either way you know and that's the situation we're living in so as i'm sitting in this office trying to work a drone is gunning the ceiling whereby it would literally shoot every wall around me and then start shooting me in the head crazy and and i should also say that right next here i have a little audio recorder running on most days recording the impact sounds and you heard them too yep catherine i
i interviewed you once where you were underneath a sheet and we could hear the impact i mean it was crazy yeah you heard that i don't get too much of that she gets most of that i mean i occasionally hear that around me but mostly not me it's mostly going at around her and i can literally tell the the the quality of the pseudo-wall radar because even if all the blinds are closed and even if the whole house is dark if i change rooms they will shoot something very close next to me they like
to shoot metal objects we have a metal mirror on my dresser that is pinging almost every night with a heck almighty impact sound you know just like a good night you know happy survival um it is insane and uh the thing is we cannot we cannot get through to the trump administration we've tried i've i've put together an entire bundle on the assassination attempts well you're being blocked i mean obviously i mean you know people
know what you're trying to do and aren't allowing you to do it i mean obvious well on top of that we we know we know how to uh use the databases that the government already has to figure out everybody who's doing all criminal activity not only around the world but in the united states and in the united states government so we can lay them all on that whole episode everything about that everything about narcotics worldwide terrorism all that everything including
all corruption in the fbi cia and nsa itself can i quickly explain to those people who don't know any of the stuff that you know how this is done because it's obvious to you he's the guy he's the mass genus who builds thin thread that does this but to most people who've never used computers before it's very hard to understand what we're talking about basically when when cash battell and pam bonney gave this press conference you know proud as they can be that they found 205 child abusers i had an apoplectic
fit i slammed down the laptop lid so hard it broke because it is idiotic you can't be proud of signing 25 child abusers with the nsa database you can find them all you can find them all and the way normal people in excess of a half a million in excess yeah and and the way people can understand it is to just think that every phone in their hand has the computing capabilities of the laptop a
couple of years ago, right?
So with something that has a gigahertz processor, gigahertz means a billion steps of computations per second, right?
You might have multiple processors in here.
So let's just say order of magnitude, a billion steps per second, right?
When you have the world population of humans, it's between seven and eight billion.
I keep forgetting the number, but let's just round it to whatever, 10 billion, okay?
Because I like round numbers.
That gives us still time for a couple of years until we're 10 billion.
Let's assume there were 10 billion humans and they're actually a lot fewer.
You can program your device to run over every entry, just their name entry in 10 seconds if you've got one processor.
If you've got 10 in one second.
So the whole world population on your phone in about a second.
On this device here that you can program to do just that.
Now, if you want to pull out all the pedophiles, let's say people who posted stuff like that, who accessed child porn and you have their full, everything they ever did online, what they said to their pedophile friends.
And the other thing about pedophiles is that they like to blow to other pedophiles.
So they're not exactly discreet.
You can run through all the communications of the last quarter of a century when you pull out the exact things you're looking for.
You don't have to run over everybody because half of the people, you know, are, well, not more than half, but you only need 320 million to find the Americans, right?
Forget everybody else.
Then it comes down from 320 million when you look at the right gender.
You factor in age.
And before you know it, you're looking at the potential of maybe what, a couple of tens of millions.
And then you come over the NSA database and you pull them all out with the server farms that you have at NSA where you can really do number crunching.
And you could pull stuff like that, like a terrorist network out in what, moments?
At least, you know, four or five minutes.
Four, five minutes.
And the thing is, a pedophile is born.
You have to wait for them to grow up, to then, you know, activate whatever.
The same with the terrorists, right?
You have to wait for them to be trained, to know how to make bombs.
So once you have found them all in minutes, well, your job is done on Monday.
You are done.
On Monday, you find all the pedophiles.
On Tuesday, all the terrorists.
On Wednesday, all the illegal immigrants that are violent and whoever else you want to find and so on.
And after a week, you can close the FBI.
Well, that's not quite true because they keep recruiting people.
People keep coming up.
She'd have to keep going at it.
But certainly the job would be diminished.
It's a manageable job then.
It's not something that's stigmatized.
Most of it can be done that way.
And once you get that done, your workload is really low.
And so you can really succeed at this.
You're describing positive benefits for society.
And I worry about the opposite.
These are the AI powers.
Social security data.
Trump seemed to be opening the floodgate of data on the American people.
And I think it's going to be used to isolate every dissenter, every critic, everyone who ever had an independent thought, and that the outcome is not going to be good.
Yes.
Well, you end up with workers and nobody thinking or nobody educated or in anything.
Yeah.
Well, you have direct information about Palantir because the Dutch police had Palantir.
They paid 10 millions for it.
Oh, that's what they told us.
Yeah.
So the Dutch police already bought Valentir.
And what did they say to you?
Was it a stalking success?
They had, let's say, they didn't have very kind words to say about it.
It didn't help them at all.
Did not help them at all.
Yeah.
And the reason why is because what people don't understand about science, and Trump absolutely doesn't understand it, because in his sealed in real estate of building construction, right, when you want to build something, you can throw money at something and you will get more of what you want.
But that's because erecting high-rises is, compared to science, a trivial task, okay?
Building a house, putting bricks down, putting down, you know, whatever, putting up drywall, you know, whatever it is, steel girders, whatever it is, guys can get it done.
But it's about the scientific field or something that you have to do actual brain work.
Not even the genius knows when he will come up with an answer.
Because when are you going to have the brilliant idea, Jim?
You know, starting now in 16 minutes, come up with something brilliant, right?
So you don't know.
You have to invest in the people who are brilliant, have the required IQ, and you have to know that you can't replace an IQ to 100 person with two IQ 100 people, because those will never ever come up with the right answer.
Something that might be obvious to somebody like Bill, right?
So what Palantir does is they think they can just do really gimmicky little displays and display the information, and then all the people who work for the police will go, oh, so that's what a drug trafficking thing bring is.
And it just doesn't work like that because they don't have the data analysis skills.
Are you suggesting Palantir actually may not represent a threat because their techniques are so unsophisticated?
Is that?
No, in fact, I read an article, a recent article, where it talked about a sub-program in Palantir, I think they call it mosaic or something like that, was used to aggregate probabilities to justify going in and having the bombing in Iran.
And I said, well, you know, this really, how do you aggregate probabilities of threats or intentions and threats of capabilities and intentions?
How do you assess that in a multi-factor problem?
And how do you aggregate the probabilities to reach a threshold that justifies taking an action on it?
And that's where I don't see this happening.
I don't understand how they aggregate those probabilities.
That's not an easy task to do.
Well, I've got to put some information because in particle physics, aggregating probabilities to even identify an electron is exactly what we're doing.
But what we are doing also, and we spend years on it before we publish any sort of result, is we look at the systematics, but we look at many other cases.
Now, the things like, oh, let's bomb Iran, you don't have another independent data set.
Okay, we have all these other nations who looked like this, had the same probabilities, but then they didn't have a bomb or they didn't go and bomb anybody.
So it is nonsense.
You cannot work like this, right?
I have a good educated guess of what they might have been doing, but it's going to be garbage.
It's going to be absolute nonsense.
But what it is excellent for is plausible deniability.
And that's already being used now to say, oh, for example, true social, my posts get disappeared frequently.
And if I submit an appeal, they say, oh, it was our AI.
The AI picked it up.
So they are completely absolved from all responsibility.
And the other point is, where is the validation process or what is the validation process that actually is functioning properly and giving a concrete result?
And where is the peer review of that validation process?
Well, the AI is functioning like a black box.
You know, you ask a question, gives you an answer.
Who knows what the hell happened in between?
You know, I mean, I have a nephew who was looking up a legal case I had here in Dane County, and it was ridiculous.
I carried it all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.
I have four appeals pending.
My briefs are really rather spectacular.
I got a mountain of evidence.
He has this AI chat thing, and it said he didn't even show up for court.
He didn't have any evidence.
He was, you know, justly found in contempt.
All this other stuff had no resemblance.
It's the old, you know, computer science principle, G-I-G-garbage in, garbage out.
On the other hand, you hear some spectacular successes where AI is putting together a whole lot of data points and coming up with an astute and accurate solution.
That's the same.
I have the same problem when talking about quantum computing.
Yes.
When you have bad software, it's giving you crap.
You put it on a quantum computer.
It gives you crap a hell of a lot faster.
Yeah, that's right.
A hell of a lot faster.
That's right.
So in particle physics, we have selections or selectors-based analyses, and they wanted to bring in neural net analysis, which is like the baby of this AI.
So neural nets and neural, these learning algorithms.
The problem is, and this is why we actually actively decided at my last collaboration to not use it, is that you get an answer extremely fast with these learning algorithms, but you don't know what the hell the algorithm actually learned.
So in those cases where you can take the answer and how, in those cases where you can take the answer and plug it back in like a math equation and check if it's correct or not, that's great.
But when you actually do any sort of open-ended investigation or scientific analysis where you still don't know, you have a result, but you don't know if it's accurate or not.
It might be precise, but it might totally not be accurate, right?
So then what you have to do is run back and check your systematic uncertainties.
And it's the systematic uncertainties that explode exponentially with every learning step of this algorithm.
And so you get a very quick answer and you have absolutely no clue is it even correct.
And now imagine these processes are going to create new rules to operate and let them create more and more rules and you're actually building uncertainty into the system that's only growing with one.
Yeah, and you have no way of measuring the degree of uncertainty.
I mean, it's being compounded.
Talk about not knowing what you don't know.
I mean, this is far worse.
You're given a false impression you know something when the uncertainty factor is so great, it's virtually by chance.
And imagine getting the computer dump and trying to find the bug in your program when you know something's wrong, but all these rules have been generated and you have to go through and find out the bugs in all of them.
It gets to be an impossible test.
Yeah, that's really the problem in everything where you have to have something reliable, like a court conviction for a pedophile, or you need to find the assassins that are out to get Trump.
You can't just waste the Secret Service's time on chasing up leads.
For example, the Secret Service went to an elementary school because an elementary school child made a threat against Trump on social media, right?
Well, who generated that lead for you guys, right?
So if you do this, you're going to expend your energy taking instructions from AI and you will again miss the real thing.
So to give another example, when you have AI, look at these dancing videos that AI generated.
In every single one, there's some fundamental flaw.
For example, people are spinning as they are dancing and their head doesn't have either that or their head literally stays stationary while their body rotates around the axis, right?
Something that a human looks at and goes, what the hell is that?
It's garbage.
Now, when it's dancing videos on YouTube shorts, it's very easy to spot the mistake.
But when you're trying to, you know, program drones to take out the target and you're not taking out, you know, the right one, you're taking out Granny's house, or you're trying to convict people and there's a fundamental flaw.
It's not as easy to spot as the people dancing and their head not spinning with them.
Yeah, I think all these visions, you know, of the global elite wanting to do away with, you know, 90% of the world population, get down to half a billion and have robots.
I mean, it's not only terminally boring, but it seems to me it's going to run out.
I mean, you know, how are you going to resupply, maintain the robots, all that?
I think It's very short-sighted thinking, and it cannot possibly succeed, but they believe it.
And that's the problem.
If they believe that and act on it, the consequences can be devastating for the world entirely.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Also, remember that the delusional.
Well, they're not just illusional, they are not the experts who built this.
Exactly.
Well, there are also rich people who just haven't got a clue because they didn't do the work themselves.
They bought the product at the end.
They are not capable of flying their own drones or programming them or manufacturing the materials for the drones.
So our standard of living on planet Earth is actually reliant on a supply chain of millions of people.
I think it was in one of those economics books, entertaining economics books, where somebody went through of how many parts a toaster has.
And it's several thousand parts that you need.
And some of them, for example, the filaments have to be a special alloy that you have to know how to do.
Otherwise, the whole thing is going to charcoal and it's not going to work with a toaster.
So just to produce a toaster, you rely on a ginormous supply chain with little companies and this and that.
And before you know it, the people you are eliminating are part of the people who supply you your toaster.
So in a complex human system, you can't just go and say, oh, I just take it down to 900 million people.
It's going to be fine.
It doesn't work like that.
Well, I'm terribly worried.
I mean, Bill observes you can figure out all the pedophiles in like a minute when you're doing a billion computations a second.
So how long does it take to identify Trump critics?
Same thing.
And what are you going to do about it?
You got them all lined up.
I worry about a Czechist event like followed the Russian Revolution, where millions, as many as 20 million were civilians were put to death because they weren't sufficiently enthusiastic about the Bolsheviks.
So they took them down to take off their clothes, lined up against a wall, and gave them a bullet in the back of the head.
I can see that happening here.
Scarcely.
It's already been happening with the Tea Party and with other religious groups trying to get politically active and become 501c3s.
The IRS went after them.
And they used that database to do that.
So, I mean, you know.
That's economic harassment.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, they've done that to us.
My contracts were terminated.
I couldn't get any work anywhere.
Me off!
You're like a leading expert in your field in the whole effing world and you can't get a job?
I mean, obviously.
I mean, they sent the FBI to make sure that I got the boot.
Yeah, well, you'll be able to do that.
The FBI and NSA and CIA, they all did it.
And even over in Europe when I was in the Netherlands, we started proving you can start do things and we started getting momentum and they came in and killed us.
But they also terminated your boarding contracts.
Borders and what's it called?
Customs and border protection and CIA contact and NINSCOM and NRO, National Reconnaissance Office.
But the customs and border protection project we had was amazing because you using not even access to NSA because that by that time.
Just using Google, you generated what, 40,000 leads on smuggling?
Well, that was the estimate that I could get out of the CVP import-export database.
What I did was look at a certain sample from scraping a website out there in Dubai.
And I found X number of Iranian companies in Dubai that were importing parts to make IEDs in Afghanistan and Iraq be used against our people.
And, you know, I gave that to the customs and border protect.
They said, that's your great, great patriots, and thanks very much.
And I never heard another word for it.
So then I went in and proposed to them a way to look at their entire data and find my estimate was about 40,000 companies worldwide that would be part of different kinds of smuggling, weapons, you know, IND parts, that kind of thing, and just general smuggling of drugs and all that kind of stuff.
And they said, thank you, but we only have two analysts here.
We can't handle that.
Thank you.
And goodbye.
But I tried to point out to them, how many thousands of inspectors do you have at the ports of entry?
Airports, you know, shipping entry points.
I mean, those, that's your workbooks to look at the, once you pinpoint the companies, you know exactly the package and the container.
So you go look at it and you tell the people out there to do it.
From a cost efficiency point of view, they need you for crying out loud.
This is insane.
Well, we proposed to them in 2006.
So since then, they've rejected that.
Actually, I found Bernie Madolph with it too.
Bernie Madolph, all the operations that were related to Bernie Madolph.
That technique showed that one too.
So, you know, it gets into people trying to hide things, you know?
You're a dangerous guy, Bill Booney.
You're a dangerous guy.
People can't keep any secrets.
They fear you.
They fear Catherine.
I mean, that's why you guys have been subjected to all this torment.
You're a threat to them.
Actually, how long do you have, Jim?
Because I've just seen you all around the hour.
How long do you have for this interview?
Do you have a few more minutes?
My thought was we ought to do this sort of regular basis, like once a week.
How would that be?
Something like that?
Perfect.
Perfect.
I would like to do that.
Next time, we should talk about how you can find all the criminals in government and pick them off as they start to do bad things.
Are Wednesdays are this day of the week in time?
Does that work for you?
That works fine.
Yeah, that's fine.
We have to check our calendar.
Yeah, so you may have to adjust the scene.
You can let me know.
I'm so glad we're now in contact.
I've been so worried about you guys.
I tried to call Catherine a couple of times.
Her phone wasn't working.
And, you know, when I emailed and didn't hear from her, but heard from you, Bill, saying how you guys were under attack, I was just very worried.
And I just awakened in the middle of the night to realize we need to be talking.
We need to get this out.
The public needs to know what the hell's going on.
Yeah.
So here's the things that you didn't know.
I have been through absolute hell since, well, first of all, since September, since I did that work about investigating the assassination attempts.
It was on your show, the Monday after the Butler assassination attempt, where I broke this thing about the people ducking in the crowd.
So we have been trying to get through to the Secret Service director, who back then was the protective detail leader for Trump, to look into certain things, because there's indication that on Trump's team, there might be insiders who have been coordinating certain.
Honestly, at this point in time, I think Trump is in great danger.
I think the Israelis are unhappy with him.
The Iranians, honestly, I don't think the threat from the Iranians is remotely as great as a threat from the Israelis.
I mean, you know, they have resources that are vast.
And, you know, when people fail to fulfill their objectives, they can have a very abbreviated lifespan.
And I'm worried about the guy because, I mean, he's not only been mucking up massively.
I think this whole bombing thing has been a fiasco.
But who's going to succeed him?
This guy Vance, who came out of nowhere?
You know, I'm very worried about the future of the nation.
Yeah.
So for this reason, Bill and I have been working absolutely all the time, trying to get through.
And as a result, we've been extremely targeted.
So what I wanted to say is I would love to do a regular thing.
And the only limit on that is Bill being tortured because Bill is being tortured pretty much 24-7 by now and has to take two of the strongest prescribable medications just to last her.
So he would be perfectly fine like he is now.
Oh, yeah, you're not fine.
Bill is already being tortured, but in intense pain.
Yeah, at an actual high-intensity torture session, I would be sitting at the other side of the house and I could hear him cry out in pain.
And it would be just intense pain slash and then it would go down to zero, a couple of seconds again, and then it would go like that for hours.
So let's conclude our conversation for today, but have a few minutes more about doing it again.
I can't enough.
I have boundless admiration for you both.
You've done so many important things in so many different ways to benefit society.
And it seems as those who are doing the most for the good are the targets of the bad.
It's the only way to explain it in simple language.
And you're suffering for your good work.
It's that old phrase, no good deed goes unpunished.
You've done a lot of good deeds and you are being punished.
I can't thank you enough for joining me today.
And the world needs to know what's going on.
And you were so much in my heart and my mind, I felt I had an obligation to reach out.
I'm very grateful for this opportunity.
So please stay safe.
And our best with that.
I look forward to our next conversation.
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