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Sept. 13, 2024 - Jim Fetzer
57:22
Conversations on Health Freedom – Contagion Myth with Sally Fallon Morell
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Hi, I'm Leslie Mnookin, I'm Leslie Mnookin, President of Health Freedom Defense Fund Mnookin, President of Health Freedom Defense Fund and host of Conversations on Health Freedom, a podcast about our most sacred human right.
Music Hi everybody, Leslie Manoukian of Health Food and Defense Fund here today.
So excited about our show.
We're going to talk about a really thought provoking topic today.
Contagion.
What have we found?
What does science show?
What does history show us?
And we're going to talk about it with Sally Fallon Murrell, a dear friend of mine, who is the president and founder of the Weston A. Price Foundation.
She is best known as the author of the best-selling cookbook, Nourishing Traditions, which I have had for about 20 years.
And that's how I first discovered the Weston A. Price Foundation and then Sally.
It's the cookbook that challenges politically correct nutrition and the diet dictocrats.
And let me tell you, that is what spoke to me when I read that title.
I thought, you know, this stuff just doesn't make sense.
We're supposed to be 70% of our food should be highly processed carbohydrates.
That just doesn't make sense.
Anyway, this well-researched, thought-provoking guide to traditional foods contains a startling message.
Animal fats and cholesterol are not villains, but vital factors in the diet, necessary for normal growth, proper function of the brain and nervous system, protection from disease, and optimum energy levels.
How nice is that to hear?
Butter is your friend, guys.
Sally also founded a campaign for real milk at www.realmilk.com.
At its inception in 1998, the website listed only 28 sources of raw milk in the United States.
Only 28.
Today, there are over 2,000 with many hundreds more not listed.
It's actually 3,000.
Oh, okay.
That's what it says on the website, just so you know.
Oh, we better update that, yeah.
With many hundreds more not listed.
I think we're now up to 47 states have it in some way, isn't that right?
Just about.
I think the governor of Louisiana is supposed to sign a bill for raw milk in Louisiana today.
And that would just leave us with Hawaii, Nevada, and I believe Rhode Island.
Now, in some places, it's only pet milk that's available, but it is raw milk still.
And let me just say, it's the fastest growing agricultural product in the United States.
And this growth has been largely stimulated by the information provided at RealMilk.com.
Sally is also the author of Eat Fat, Lose Fat and Nourishing Broth, among many other books.
Her latest book co-authored with Dr. Tom Cowan, is the contagion myth, why viruses, including coronavirus, are not the cause of disease.
This last book is what I want to focus on today.
Thank you so much for being here with me, Sally.
It is going to be so fun and welcome to the show.
Thanks.
Thanks for having me, Leslie.
It's great to see you.
So apologies to anybody if you can see my red eye.
My husband has a The thing about red eyes, I got stung by some kind of an insect when I was hiking last weekend and my eye is super duper bloodshot, although it's better than it was.
So let's start with the book, Sally.
Why did you create The Contagion Myth?
Why did you write it?
You and Tom.
Yes, and we wrote it very quickly.
We felt it was such a timely subject and what inspired me was The Invisible Rainbow by Arthur Furstenberg, who described studies that they did back in 1918 for the Spanish flu.
And the Spanish flu, according to the studies, killed 50 million people worldwide.
And it just kind of appeared on the scene and, you know, all these deaths, more deaths than the Second World War, so they say.
They did contagion studies.
Not many diseases have had contagion studies, but the New York Department of Health did a contagion study where they had volunteers who were healthy, and they exposed them to people who had the Spanish flu.
It's kind of funny to read about it, but they had them go up to their faces and breathe on them.
They had them cough On them, they took fluid from the lungs of the sick people and injected it into the lungs of the well people.
They took blood from the sick people.
And injected it in the lungs of the well people.
And they also did this with horses.
Apparently horses got Spanish flu too, and they did the same thing with sick and well horses.
Well, not a single well person or well horse got the Spanish flu from this.
Not one.
So it was not a contagious disease.
And you have to ask yourself, well, what caused it then?
So many people got sick.
And Dr. Furstenberg's theory, and I think it's a good one, is that this is when they rolled out radio waves.
And they kind of came suddenly, especially on military bases, but this was worldwide.
And people weren't used to radio waves and our bodies, you know, got sick from this.
And my theory is eventually we adjust to this kind of environment, but something new, something toxic that happens all at once, a lot of people are going to get sick.
And a way to take people's attention off of what's making them sick is to blame it on contagion.
We had one person get sick and this spread worldwide just like that in just a matter of a few weeks.
Yeah, it's really fascinating.
So it had happened before in history, right?
So if you go back, there were the advent of the telegraph was associated with flu and then the radar, as you mentioned, or sorry, antennas across the world, especially on military bases for radio signals and even before that, electricity, widespread electricity.
And then Even Rudolf Steiner mentions this in one of his books that people who lived along the railroad lines and his parents were very much involved they ran a little railroad station how people got sick if they lived along the railroad lines well that's where the Telegraphs were.
They ran just right along where the railroads were.
This is just a new phenomenon that our bodies had never encountered before.
And here's the thing.
Everybody understands today, at least most people do, I think, the dangers or the threat of EMFs, right?
I'm starting to understand this.
Like, you don't want to live near a power line.
This is something that people have known for a long time that causes illness.
And so my point is that it's invisible, but it has the potential to harm us.
Think about radiation.
It's invisible, but it can cause cancer and a myriad of other diseases and complications.
Exactly.
And so, you know, we are I mean, many people say, you know, we're electric beings, right?
That there's electricity coursing through our cells.
And so, if there's an overload of this electricity or something like that, this can actually then cause illness.
And maybe that's what people are witnessing.
I think the other thing though, Sal, I'd love your comment on this, if you've thought about this, is just the power of the mind.
Because we've been told to believe in contagion, and so I think that people very often, if they're around someone who's sick, will get sick because they think they're going to get sick.
Or it could be the same influence, same environment.
I remember back in the 90s, we knew this, we knew that magnetic fields caused illness, and I was head of a group that was fighting, they were going to put high tension Power lines through our neighborhood, you know, residential neighborhood.
And that's what we fought it on, that these magnetic fields produced by the lines were going to make a lot of people sick, especially children.
In the end, they didn't put it up.
We're not quite sure why, but we prevailed.
Yeah.
Well, it's interesting.
When 9-11 happened, I was living in London at the time and I was running an investment management group.
And of course, this is just catastrophic, terrifying.
Incident that really elicits shock and awe in the viewer.
And they played the images of the planes flying into the buildings over and over and over again.
People falling off the buildings too.
And falling off all these kinds of things or jumping or whatever, you know, so all these things.
But my point is that within three days of that, 60 to 70% of the people in my office were sick.
And there's an absolutely scientific explanation for this.
Stress depletes vitamin A very quickly from the body.
And if you haven't built it up again, you're going to get sick.
When vitamin A stores are low, we get sick.
And the other thing is shock releases cortisol into our systems, which is an immunosuppressant, right?
I mean, it's used to actually suppress the immune system for people who are receiving organ transplants.
Yeah, there's a lot of very good explanations for these things.
Let's go back to the Black Deaths, for example, which spread very rapidly, like a mile and a half a day.
And the people at the time said this was coming from the sky, that fire was coming from the sky.
And the first symptom, or the way you knew it was coming, is that the air smelled really terrible.
Like rotten eggs.
And of course, today we say it was contagious.
It was a microorganism.
Oh, we found these microorganisms in their skeletons, so this must be what caused it.
But the new school of thought is that there was actually a comet
or comet debris which came over the earth very close and the comets are kind of stinky objects they do smell bad and they're highly charged magnetic objects as well and basically people were being bathed in x-rays and the what they call the bobos the welts that broke out this is exactly what happens under strong x-ray exposure Hmm, really interesting.
I've forgotten that from the book.
Did you talk about that?
Yes, we did.
I've read it twice, but it's been a while.
I remember the comets, but not the bubos.
But yeah, it's really interesting.
I think, you know, that you just think about minerals too, right?
I mean, when you smell sulfur, it's horrible.
And so those comets are filled with all sorts of mineral and And no matter that when they're being incinerated are going to release toxic fumes as well.
So it could be, you know, radiation.
It could be lots of things that are causing this and it's been raining down on them.
So that makes a lot of sense.
It's real.
And they blamed it on, I think they blamed it on fleas from rats.
Yes.
This plague ended up in Iceland.
It killed like half the people in Iceland.
There were no rats in Iceland at the time.
And it was winter, so it wasn't like there was, you know, a lot of decay or anything going around.
So yeah, I mean, it's a much better explanation, although it kind of boggles the mind as well.
But speaking of noxious gases, I do have to laugh.
So this highly contagious bird flu has caused three dairy workers to get conjunctivitis.
And that's all that happened.
Okay.
And it cleared up.
And so what was the atmosphere of these dairy workers?
They were in, you know, the toxic fumes from manure and the confinement dairies are just filthy.
And chemicals, and all the chemicals.
Yes, they might be spraying chemicals, but they don't even need that as an explanation because, you know, ammonia, hydrogen sulfide, you know, all these noxious gases, they're working in those.
And yeah, your eyes don't like that.
No, of course not.
I mean, just think about even how bad it is to cut an onion sometimes.
Your eyes don't like that.
Then think about ammonia and these other things.
So I want to delve into that, but I wanted to ask you something first because I think it's a lead into that.
So let's just talk about what is it that people misunderstand about contagion?
Well, they think that contagion is some kind of microorganism that you can't see, a bacteria, or if they can't find a bacteria, then they've got this other thing standing by called the virus, which is so small that you can't even, I mean, it's very, very hard to see even in an electron microscope.
And so that's what's blamed for spreading this illness, whatever it is.
But what is, what do you think is happening?
So, I mean, I used to, I remember if I sat on a train or an airplane next to someone who was sick, I'd always get sick.
And then one time it was after I'd started homeopathy school and I learned about the connection between our thoughts and our emotions and our physical, um, Physicality.
And I was sitting next to this woman on a train going to a little town in England called Sherbourne, about two and a half hours out of London.
And there was a woman coughing and hacking right next to me the whole time.
And I just said to myself, it doesn't matter.
It's not going to affect me.
It's not going to affect me.
And you know what?
It didn't affect me.
I didn't get sick.
And I think it's because in the past, I'd always sort of been susceptible to the notion of contagion that I was going to get sick.
And so it happened.
And so what are your thoughts on that?
Well, we call it the power of suggestion, and I think it's the stress of thinking you're going to get sick.
As you say, it raises cortisol and it depletes vitamin A, and that's the outcome of fear.
And that's what they want you to think, that this other person is going to make you sick, or touching them, or being next to them, or them breathing on you is going to make you sick.
But a lot of people sit next to sick people and never get sick, you know.
Well, and also think about as a mother.
All the times your children are sick and you never get sick.
Yeah.
Right.
Right.
I mean, yeah, it just almost never happens.
And it's just because we're not thinking about that.
We're thinking about nurturing our child rather than what's going to happen with us.
You know, there's an incredible story out of India.
You've probably heard it about this, this prisoner who was sentenced to death and they told him that they were going to, they, he was given a choice between being hung and having his blood let from him.
And he chose the latter.
Have you heard this story?
No, no.
Oh my gosh, Sally, it's unbelievable.
So they strapped him to a bed and they put a needle in his arm and then they let the blood from him.
The only thing is they never took a drop of his blood.
They put buckets around the table to receive the blood, but they dripped water into the buckets.
And when it got slower and slower and slower, when the last drop of water dropped, guess what happened?
He died.
He died.
Yeah.
This is how powerful... Our thoughts are.
Right?
How powerful, yeah.
So... You know, one of the things I've been writing about is TB.
Which is supposed to be caused by a TB bacillus.
And Robert Koch finally found it by, in some people, by staining their fluids and finding these little squiggly things there.
They really don't look like bacteria, they just look like little filaments, but anyway.
The disease of TB is identical to an illness today we call siderosis, which is caused by iron poisoning, and welders get it a lot, and it's exactly the same symptoms.
Little tiny tumors in the lungs called miliary tumors, because they look like millet seeds, and anemia and gradual wasting away and that was TB was prevalent during what we call the iron age people were there were iron fumes in the air and the way they heated their houses with Cast iron stoves.
People burn coal, which put a lot of iron in the air.
And I was just thinking about the measles.
I would really like for someone to look into the measles and see if that isn't iron related in some way.
Because when you get iron overload, you get a fever and you get a rash.
And I just think we need to look into this because people don't get the measles very much anymore.
My kids didn't get them.
None of them did.
I had the measles, but I think we've kind of cleaned up most of that iron.
And were your kids vaccinated when you... No.
You already knew.
You were already on the... Yeah, I already knew.
But they didn't get the measles, which surprised me because I had a really bad case of the measles.
I don't know where I got it.
We were living out in the desert in Arizona, but I had them.
Gasoline, you know, which they've cleaned up a lot.
Very much so.
It had a lot of lead and other things in it, right?
So it could have been it could have been lots of things.
And I wonder if it's also not just detoxification.
um process and that what happens is children are together and one of them gets it and then the other one's um bodies resonate we know that with a tuning fork you know that that's that if you strike a vibration or something yeah uh dna is is that's what it is it's kind of an antenna and resonates and there's been studies showing that If you put two batches of DNA in different beakers, they will start to resonate.
And Tom Cowan's theory is that measles is a cleansing and it takes place when the child is about seven years old, moving from one phase to another.
And that if you take them to a measles party, the kid with the measles is saying, it's time for you guys to get the measles too.
So that's another theory.
But it just dawned on me the other day how much measles is the symptoms of iron toxicity.
Not as bad as TB, but the child at age seven is going to get rid of this, you know, before it goes on to the next stage of life.
Yeah, well, we have a researcher writer who's doing a series on all the vaccines, Mike Bryant.
And so I'm not sure if MMR is on his, I don't think he's done it yet.
I'm almost certain he hasn't done it yet.
So maybe I'll have him look into that.
It's very interesting.
Very interesting.
You know, if you just look at And we're told that vaccines saved us from all of this infectious disease, right?
We're told that without the vaccine, measles would be killing everybody, but what people don't know is that the vaccine wasn't even introduced until 1963.
Yeah.
That was after the death rate had declined from 10 to 20,000 people per year down to about 400 per year in the five years preceding introduction of the shot.
So, I mean, who's to say that it wouldn't have gone to zero or very close to zero if they had done nothing, right?
It's just, and yet all of this is attributed.
Well, I think typhus, scarlet fever, they've disappeared.
There was never a vaccine for those.
Yeah.
But they would say antibiotics for scarlet fever, right?
So, yeah.
Nobody gets it anymore.
Who gets scarlet fever?
And that almost certainly was from bad water.
In the city of Chicago, they were pouring the sewer into the same place in Lake Michigan that they were taking the drinking water out.
And that was up until the late 1890s.
So we just don't realize how much cleaner our whole environment is today than it was 100 years ago.
Yeah, only 100 years ago.
And let's not forget, there was open sewage in the streets.
I mean, I'm sure you've seen those images from Suzanne Humphrey's book, Dissolving Illusions, where she shows All of these shanty towns in New York and other cities, and then there's just open sewage in the back of them.
So there's open sewage.
There's no clean drinking water.
There's no water system.
There's no refrigeration.
There are animals in the streets.
I mean, it's a recipe for illness.
There were pigs in the streets of New York, and of course, all transportation was horse.
And cows too, I think, right?
There were cows.
I mean, probably the milk from those cows was the only thing that saved a lot of those children.
But yeah, I have a picture of a horse cart and it's stuck.
The manure is so high that the wheels are stuck.
And they call that the milk problem.
They said, it's the milk that's killing these kids.
And so blame it on the milk.
Had nothing to do with the open sewage or anything else.
I know.
Yeah.
It's insane.
I've said to people, well, they'll say to me, but polio, but polio ever since, you know, we made the greater good.
What about polio?
And I say, well, you know, I don't think that people have a deficiency in polio shots.
If they're playing soccer in open sewage, like they are in places around the world, they're going to get sick no matter what you call it.
Or if they're running behind the DDT, what do you call it?
I know, like the spray truck, yeah.
Yeah, and they know they had little cans where you could spray it in your house.
And they sprayed it in the dairies.
Yeah, DDT is good for me.
But my point is that even today in India or other countries, they would say, well, why do they still have polio?
Well, because they don't have proper public health And they shipped the DDT to countries where it wasn't outlawed, and one of them was India.
Yeah, very much so.
And they gave them these horrible shots, you know, so we could go on about that.
So one of the things I find really interesting when I think about this whole issue is I remember in my early 20s reading the eight-week cholesterol cure, and it was all about I was probably 24 years old and I said, oh my gosh, I've got to do this.
I have to start eating oats all the time.
It's going to save me.
You know, I totally believed it.
My dad got into it and my dad was someone who ate a piece of salami and a hunk of cheese every night with a glass of wine when he got home.
That was his thing.
And then he became paranoid about fat, stopped eating fat, and then he developed heart disease later in his life.
And I used to try to convince him that he had been had.
And so my point is, we know Through so much research now, that cholesterol is the band-aid that our body sends to the inflammation in the blood vessels.
It's shooting the messenger to focus on cholesterol and saturated fat.
Blaming the fireman.
Is that what we're seeing here with viruses in general?
So is that what we're seeing here with viruses in general, that there's some attacker?
Is there a parallel with what we're seeing today in terms of, say, COVID or anything else?
Blame it on a virus, not cholesterol, right?
But also the reaction, right?
There's something going on.
There's an inflammatory response and we're blaming this virus, something invisible, rather than it being actually the way that the body heals.
Well, certainly fever and inflammation, they're the therapy, they're not the illness.
And people say inflammation is the root of all evils, but the body gets inflamed when it's sick, when it's missing something.
I recently did a blog on vitamin A, this was a study back in 1925, and they looked at what happened when they deprived the animals of vitamin A, and what happened is that their cells broke down.
And they very clearly said we didn't find inflammation and we didn't find infection, in other words, bacteria, until after.
It wasn't before the cells broke down, it was after.
So these things are not the cause, they're the body's attempt to heal.
Just think you break your ankle and your ankle swells up, Preventing you from moving your ankle as it's supposed to prevent you from moving your ankle because otherwise the pain would be excruciating and you wouldn't heal.
So inflammation is the body's, it's kind of like putting bubbles around your illness or whatever.
Yeah.
It's not the cause of anything.
Now, if you're inflamed for a long time from some other cause, yes, it might, who knows, block a muscle or a blood vessel or something like that, but it's not the cause, it's the therapy.
Yeah.
You know, I'm a homeopath, Sally.
I'm sure all of our viewers know that because I've said it a million times, but something that I find very interesting is that people often, parents of young children will call me and say, You know, I can't get the fever to stop.
I keep giving them whatever anti-inflammatory, you know, some, and I say stop giving, fever is your friend, stop giving them this drug.
And then the fever gets high and then it resolves, right?
Yes.
It lingers and lingers and lingers as long as you're suppressing it.
And it's... Yeah.
And what, you know, my suggestion when you have a fever is make the fever go hotter by taking a really hot bath, then getting under the covers, having a hot lemon drink, lemon honey drink, and just working up a sweat.
And your fever will be gone in the morning.
Yeah.
We just take Belladonna or Nuxvomica and that usually sorts it out for us.
Um, so there was, um, we were chatting earlier, there's this study that's just come out in the last couple of weeks and it's about, um.
It's about how they tried to infect people with SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID, and they weren't successful.
I can't remember what they did, whether it was an injection, or I think they might have been spraying it in their nostrils or something.
That's what they did.
They were putting it out, but they gave them 10,000 times the dose is what they expected happened.
So they gave them like 1 times 10 to the first power, then they upped it to 1 times 10 to the second, and then to the third.
They did all these different phases and they did it for different periods of time.
And they Tried it with a whole cohort, all these, this big group of people, and they were not able to make anybody.
Not one person.
No.
The only thing they were able to do was show that two people had one positive PCR.
One.
But they were trying to get someone to have two PCRs over, I think, two days or something like that, and nobody did.
And so, what does this tell us?
What are your thoughts about this kind of thing?
Right, right.
Even just think about contagion.
If disease was really contagious, you couldn't have a medical profession, you couldn't have nurses, they couldn't get close to people.
And of course, this isn't what happens.
Kathy Kramer was telling me about it was a leprosy clinic or a leprosy house for people with leprosy in Louisiana at the turn of the century in 1900.
And it was very cruel.
You know, if you just had a rash or if somebody didn't like you, they would round you up and put you in the leprosy hospital and you couldn't get out.
You couldn't see anybody and you couldn't get out.
But the nurses were who were nuns.
They never got leprosy.
And that was called a miracle.
OK, but it was obvious that it wasn't contagious.
Yeah.
I think that health workers as well, I've heard that they are the most resistant to almost everything.
And I wonder if it's just because it's just part of, they would argue, the mainstream would argue it's because they're being exposed to it all the time and so their immunity is getting boosted.
But I think it's just that they're just focused on their jobs and they just don't think about that.
Except for COVID when they were, you know, freaked out by all of the, you know, hyped out messaging.
Yeah, well, it's because these things aren't contagious.
I'll tell you, someone who spoke very strongly against this theory of contagion was the nurse, what was her name?
The famous nurse.
Which one?
Crimean War.
Florence Nightingale.
Oh, Florence.
Okay.
I thought you meant in this.
Okay.
She said there's no contagion.
She said that the TB that people were getting was from noxious air.
So here we have a mere nurse.
She got it right.
And all the doctors were trying to find the bacteria or whatever.
Quarantining people, wearing masks.
She said, oh, it's the air that's making these men sick.
Well, that brings us right around to the big scare that's going on right now.
Epoch Times news alerts, and I've gotten several in the last two weeks that say, you know, a second person infected with bird flu.
Highly contagious.
I know, it's highly contagious.
Highly pathogenic, that's what they call it.
Highly pathogenic, and these people have conjunctivitis.
But let me be really clear on something.
What is the clinical definition of conjunctivitis?
All it means is inflammation of the eyes.
That's all it means.
And it can be caused by a myriad of things.
It's not a disease.
It's a syndrome.
Yes, yes.
Well, they got better and nobody else got, I mean, three people.
I know.
Well, they say, you know, they always caveat it with, um, uh, we still haven't seen a jump from human to human.
There's been no human to human transmission.
But so, so what's going on here, Sally, with all, with these cattle, with all this supposed, you know, this fear mongering about bird flu, highly pathogenic and all this stuff.
What is, what's happening here?
You want my opinion?
Yes, of course.
I think that the powers that be have seen the huge rise in the popularity of raw milk.
And they're thinking, how can we get back at raw milk?
And they've just thought this up.
So it started with some cows that seemed to be a little sick.
Their production went down.
It could have been from anything, something in the feed, something in the air.
Maybe they were just old.
Maybe they had a mineral deficiency.
Maybe they were being milked wrong.
I mean, who knows?
And then they, I think they did a PCR test on the milk.
They absolutely did.
And as you and I know, the PCR test is not a test for disease.
It's a bogus test.
All it does is magnify genetic material.
And the inventor of this test said you can't diagnose disease from this test.
And you can set the test to get a positive or negative, whatever you want.
If you set it for less than 30 cycles, you'll always get a negative.
And if you set it for over 40 cycles, you'll get positive.
So, you know, we set it for 40 cycles and lo and behold, we got a positive for bird flu.
And that this led to, it's really comical, these sort of hysterical warnings against drinking raw milk, like, you know, people are dropping dead everywhere from raw milk.
And the funny thing is raw milk sales have gone up 65% since they started this.
Oh, that's hilarious.
So there's no such thing as bad publicity.
No.
As I mentioned, raw milk has been eating away at the market share of these giant factory farms that produce this milk product.
And there, I mean, if you ever drive, you know, when I was young, there were almost no dairies in Southern Idaho.
Which is about south of where I live now.
There's at least 500,000 cows down there.
I would come home and if I had to drive to Twin Falls, you would drive through and you can just smell.
And the cows are breathing that, the ploys are breathing that.
But if you blame a virus, then people look the other way.
Exactly, exactly.
So it seems to me that whoever You know, figured this out in the 1950s that we could blame all this kinds of toxicity and things on some invisible little enemy.
We're very clever because they've been able to frighten the public into compliance with all sorts of measures like vaccination and lockdowns and distancing and all this stuff with nothing, you know?
And they got their practice run with syphilis.
Uh, even earlier.
And if you were diagnosed with syphilis, you know, you were kind of locked away.
You couldn't get married.
And they had all sorts of horrible treatments for syphilis, like breathing mercury vapors, which invariably killed people.
So it was a good practice run on how to do these things.
And every now and then you get this horrible disease that justifies some kind of lockdown or taking away our rights or making life miserable for people.
Yeah, so what can we do about this, Sally?
How do we, I mean, we've just come off of four years of, you know, you're a grandma killer if you don't comply with the measures.
And I mean, the most pervasive and shaming propaganda campaign in the history of humanity that I can tell.
And most people at this point, I think, I think a lot of people have woken up, but most people are, you know, completely bought into the idea of contagion and that their neighbor might make them sick and things like that.
I think it's maybe stronger than it even was beforehand.
I hope not, but... Yeah, it's... I mean, even my own family said, look at this, Sally, and you're promoting raw milk, you know?
And this is brought to you by the people who said that the COVID vaccine was safe and effective.
So it does take a lot to wake up most people.
So what do you think we can do?
I mean, you write, I write, I speak.
What do you think the average viewer can actually do to help diffuse the fear?
Because they're talking about disease X, bird flu is coming, and the thing is, they're using PCR, which is this, it's not even a test.
PCR, polymerase chain reaction, is a method for amplifying genetic material.
And all they do is, I mean, I actually have a dear friend.
In fact, she has spoken at the conference, Martha Carlin, and she owns a probiotic company and she's really expert in gut health and poop.
And she told me that she had three samples.
She took one stool sample, Cut it into three chunks and sent it off to three different laboratories to have it sequenced and the results came back and they were all different.
This whole sequencing thing, which is what they're doing in order to determine whether or not, you know, to determine what's causing these They're not actually proving what's causing it.
They are assuming it, and they're assuming it's this thing that has this sequence.
Basically, it's not really scientific at all.
It's extremely biased.
It's unpredictable.
It's not replicable or anything like this.
I don't know.
I wonder if there's just one thing.
Maybe we should just write up an article specifically about the deficiency of PCR in layman's terms and then people share that because that seems to me to be one of the... this is what they're wheeling out over and over again.
We've done that in the Weston Price Journal and I've written a blog on these so-called bird flu, which has gotten a lot of circulation for sure.
And that'll be in this upcoming journal.
That's in the summer edition of the Wise Traditions Journal of the Western Christ Foundation.
Yeah, yeah, but it's also on my blog, Nourishing Traditions.
Okay.
But what I'm waiting for, I'm back waiting, when are they going to say that someone who drank raw milk made somebody else sick because they drank raw milk?
That they'd become contagious?
I mean, that's obviously what they want to do.
Yeah, I think the I think they may be surprised at how little people care, you know, and people are still drinking raw milk, more people are drinking raw milk.
So hopefully this will fizzle.
But you can see that the goal is to make people think that people who drink raw milk are dangerous to others.
Yeah, just like, yeah, the headline was, um, uh, raw milk is, uh, well, there was a study that they did where they, they can, they made mice sick supposedly with raw milk.
I haven't dug into it.
Have you read this study?
Do you know about this?
Is this the New England Journal of Medicine?
Yes.
I don't know exactly what they did.
They fed them droplets and then they said they displayed evidence of illness such as lethargy.
Oh yes.
And fur ruffling.
Yeah, fur was ruffled.
And they were lethargic.
But because they didn't want to see them suffer, they killed them at 40.
And so we never knew whether they recovered or whatever.
Yeah.
And what was really going on.
Like, I really want to dig into the... And they said that these mice were really suffering, so they had to kill them.
And it was funded by the Ag Department of the state of Wisconsin, US Ag, NIAID, I believe, or NIH, one of the two.
It was all this agricultural organizations that funded it.
Well, the dairy industry in this country is in trouble.
Consumption of just fluid milk is declining, and if you take all the milk that's thrown out at the public schools, it's really declining.
Who drinks a glass of industrial milk every day?
Not many people.
Because it makes you sick.
And in fact, there's 20 to 30 deaths per year from anaphylactic shock to pasteurized milk, industrial milk.
Meanwhile, the raw milk has just taken off, and I think they're in a little bit of a panic.
What are we going to do about this?
There won't be any conventional milk in 20 years.
It'll all be raw.
Every grocery store will want to sell raw milk because that brings people in and eventually we will do what we should be doing is providing raw milk to school children.
Yeah, not only does it show that pasteurized mainstream whatever, you know, factory milk is dangerous, But all these people who are drinking the raw milk have really healthy children, right?
They're strong and their disease resistance and all these things, they're just better off.
And so, I mean, these parents see it.
It's just like the parents who vaccinated some kids and then stopped and see how their other kids are just completely different.
There is nothing the government can ever say to try and convince them.
And that's their science and you're going to question the science of these parents.
I got a letter the other day from a mom whose son had developed seizures after a vaccination when he was seven.
He's seizure free now and that's because she added raw milk to his diet.
Wow.
So you are not going to be able to tell that mom that raw milk is bad.
When you've seen a child have a seizure and then you find something that stops these seizures, yeah.
Yeah, that's amazing.
That's their science.
So what are these people, if they're having anaphylaxis to the factory milk, what is it?
What are they reacting to, do you think?
Glyphosate in the feed or something?
Well, it's possible, but milk proteins are very fragile.
They're not like meat proteins that are pretty tough and actually are easier to digest when you heat them.
And they're not like collagen proteins, which are really tough.
You can heat them and cool them, heat them, cool them.
Collagen doesn't break down.
But milk proteins, are very fragile.
And when they're heated, it's like they're twisted and warped.
And they never go back to the way they were before.
And the body says, what is this?
This is a foreign protein.
It has to mount an immune response.
And you know, very, you know, for serious immune response would be the anaphylaxis where your throat swells up.
That's inflammation, right?
Yeah.
Very much so.
So going back, you mentioned that there's a write-up on the PCR in the journal.
Do you remember when that was?
Or even the title of it, because then people can go to the website and find it.
I'd have to go look at the website and find it.
But during the whole COVID thing, we had articles on why there's no virus, why the PCR test is bad, how they prepare these samples to look at them in the electron microscope, like they're kind of embalmed in silver.
So nothing you see in the electron microscope has any meaning at all when you're talking about living things.
So, but I don't have the title on the top.
Okay, no worries.
Let's wrap up with this, because I think it's really interesting.
So, in the same way that cholesterol was viewed as the bad guy, but was actually just the messenger, right?
It was just the fireman showing up.
It's the band-aid showing up.
It's the band-aid, the fireman, whatever.
In that same way, our cells secrete these little particles called Exosomes.
And some virologists believe that exosomes are viruses, that they're indistinguishable.
But then there are other virologists who say that viruses are different and that they're pathogenic, but exosomes seem to be Little particles that contain RNA and messages whenever our cells get sick.
And to message the other cells.
So my point is, it's possible that exosomes and viruses are the same thing.
So it's not saying that they don't exist, but that they have a different role than has been attributed to them.
Can you just comment on that?
Well, that's what we said in our book, The Contagion Myth.
We definitely made that argument.
There's a lot on the internet about exosomes and how they're supposed to have this beneficial role.
The other thing, though, is these little round things that you see in the electron microscope, they might just be an artifact of the staining process.
They seem to be like little bubbles on the edge of the cell, and they're always round, which is kind of interesting.
If they were some kind of object, they'd be squished and they'd be oval and things like that, but they're always round.
To me, when you think about it, that really argues that these are just some kind of artifacts of the staining process and the pressed, stained, and pressed.
But in one of your recent articles, or not super recent, a little while ago, you, on nourishing traditions, And in The Contagion Myth, you talked about how what happens is there can be a toxic event, there can be just a fright, there can be an exposure to a toxin or something, and then the cell releases, pushes out this vesicle with this information, which is basically a way to communicate with other cells and with other life forms.
Is that being confused then?
So they're actually telling the body what to do, how to heal, and to get rid of this toxin?
Is that what's being misinterpreted as something pathological?
It's possible.
I mean, we don't know.
And I think Tom would also agree with me.
We probably jumped to conclusions there, but it's possible.
Or it might just be an artifact of the same process.
But for sure, we have absolutely no proof That these little round things you see in the electron microscope are running around.
Making us sick.
Well, that's really fascinating, Sally.
What a great conversation.
It is so much food for thought.
I want to be really clear.
We don't know, folks.
We don't know all the answers.
We don't.
But there are a lot of questions and there's a lot of evidence that the mainstream narrative may not be the accurate perspective.
No, it's not accurate.
And a virus, this imaginary virus that they've never found, in any sick bird is now going to be used to try to stop the growth of raw milk sales.
And also it has a dual purpose in my view.
It also has the potential of being disease X. So COVID 0.2, 2.0, right?
Well, they're preparing 5 million vaccines right now for bird flu.
Exactly.
All funded from your tax dollars.
And my point is that it keeps the fear going.
It keeps the whole public, the necessity of public health going.
It keeps the whole machine In along.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cranking along.
And, and to me, that's, I'm sure I think it's a, it's convenient that it helps the, you know, they think it's going to help dissuade raw milk drinkers.
But I think the bigger issue for me is that it's going to keep the whole public health narrative in train them on, on the front pages.
People clamoring for the world health organization to have all of this extraordinary power and all these kinds of things.
So to me, it really serves a very, um, uh, truly deceitful purpose, which is to keep you afraid and therefore at the whims, the caprices of the health authorities.
No.
Not to mention it gives them the excuse to wipe out chicken farmers.
That too.
Did you see that 1.2 million bird Yeah.
You have to ask yourself, are these the smaller guys who are in competition with the big guys?
The big guys say, you know, these guys are messing with us, and they go in and find a positive, one positive test, and they wipe out the whole flock.
Yeah.
You know, a couple of years ago, in the midst of the whole COVID debacle, that's what I'm calling it these days, we have a farm in Southern Idaho about two hours from where we live here, and our nephew and niece live on the farm, and Idaho Fish and Game showed up at our door.
We have chickens.
Your door?
Yeah, at our farm door.
We live, our house and our farm is right near the Snake River, which is a huge river that runs through Idaho and ends up going to the Columbia River Gorge and then dumping into the Pacific.
And they showed up and they said, we live in this area where there's a wildlife, like bird sanctuary, bird preserve out on an island in the middle of the river, okay?
And there are pelicans and swans and geese and ducks and all sorts of herons.
I mean, it's crazy out there.
It's really fun to watch from the shore, to see all these birds nesting and shrieking and all this stuff.
Well, they found a couple of pelicans.
I think it was two or four pelicans they found dead, they say.
They tested them.
This was two or three years ago maybe, and they said they have avian flu.
So they came to our house and asked, do you have chickens?
And my nephew was wise enough.
He said, how did you test them?
Yeah.
And they said, um, we don't know.
He said, well, can you please find out?
He wouldn't let them on our property.
Would you please find out?
He called them twice.
It completely went away.
They never answered, but we're quite convinced that they were just trying it on.
Yeah.
Tested these birds with probably PCR, which as, um, some people say you could, well, which Carrie Mullis said, you can find anything you want with it.
Yes.
It's just taking genetic material and amplifying it and you could find anything in anybody with this.
Yes.
If you amplify 60 cycles, everybody has it.
Yeah.
So what are you testing for?
Exactly.
For nothing.
So anyway, it was very, very interesting.
Interesting.
Yeah.
That's what they say is causing the avian flu.
They find, I think it's mostly wild geese.
They find dead geese.
Well, why are they dead?
Have you looked at what they're eating?
You know, it's water, but they don't do that.
They give them a PCR test.
They, and lo and behold, they find the bird flu and then they come and test your clock.
Yeah.
With a view to basically getting rid of it.
And so this is something that we all have to be on our toes about and refuse to let them come on our property.
And also that's a very good, what kind of test did you use?
Please let us know.
Exactly, yeah.
How did you determine that they were sick?
That's very interesting, yeah.
They might have starved to death, you know?
They might not have had enough food.
They might have been killed by other birds.
But also, on top of that, there's a lot of industrial ag around there.
It could have very easily been that they'd sprayed their fields with something and the birds were there.
And do they text them for toxicity?
Absolutely not.
I mean, highly, highly doubtful.
And so, you know, just because... What is it, the saying that goes that You know, if you don't, evidence of absence isn't, you know, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.
And so you won't find what you're not looking for.
They're not looking for what the true cause is.
They're just trying to engineer a narrative.
And if that's what they're really trying to do, then... Control the narrative.
That's, and they've lost control of the raw milk narrative and they're trying to, you know, amp it up to something else.
Yeah.
Totally.
Yeah.
Well, on that cheery note, since they are failing on that, why don't we end there?
But Sally, it's been my honor and my pleasure to have you on to talk about this really important and I think, you know, it's kind of an existential topic to investigate because it's really about like the nature of life and what we know about it and how we understand it and what we really don't understand.
There's also the nature of control and how people create situations where they get control of other people.
You and I can't imagine trying to tell somebody else what to do or to control them, but there are lots of people who get their jollies from this.
They're not happy people, but it makes them happy to control others.
Yeah, and I think it also makes them happy to see others suffer and to lie about people.
We've had something going on in my, I just wrote about this on my sub stack.
I don't know if you've seen it.
Brownstone carried it as well.
It's called Pain is the Prompt.
It's on my sub stack, which is Heretic with Leslie Mnookin.
Oh, I'll have to read that.
It's all about how, I mean, I know some people who have stooped to such low levels in order to get someone elected, that they have penned anonymous, fallacious, letters about a local sheriff.
They have just wildly misconstrued the data about crime in our valley in order to make him look bad.
And when this is pointed out to them, they refuse to correct the record.
It's just outrageous.
My point is that there are people who are so mercenary that will do anything.
And I think it's really incumbent upon each and every one of us to really To become aware that this is the reality for some people to digest that assimilate that you know that take that into our consciousness and then act from that place standing up to people who do behave this way because the only way to counter it is to confront it.
Yes.
To hold them accountable.
If we say nothing, it just emboldens them and then they become even more brazen, I think.
And so, if we want to change things, we can't hide in the shadows.
We just can't do that.
We have to stand up and we have to, I'm not saying be a jerk, I'm not saying be difficult or mean, but we have to stand up and speak the truth and shine the light on the darkness.
You know, every now and then I read the Bible and what I was struck by recently is You know, Jesus could be pretty abrasive.
He told the truth, and he was always chiding people.
So I'm not saying that we want to be deliberately abrasive, but when you tell the truth, people get offended.
But don't let that stop you.
No.
And the thing is, that's their problem.
The problem is that they're the ones who are being malevolent or dishonest.
You are not the one in the wrong by calling them out.
And if you don't call them out, it allows them to persist.
And that's the problem.
The only thing that stops them is to call them out.
Is exposure.
Yeah.
So stand up, people!
Drink raw milk.
Drink raw milk.
Eat your saturated fat, take your cod liver oil, your butter oil, eat your liver.
Butter, eat your liver.
Your eggs.
Oh my gosh, butter.
I just slice it off and let it melt in my mouth sometimes.
There's not much I love more than a little slice of cold butter.
If enough of us did that, we would change Our whole agricultural system.
Everything would change.
And the medical system and everything.
If we ate the way that nature intended us to eat.
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay, that is a cheery note on which we can end.
So, Sally, thank you so much for being here with me today.
Thanks for having me, Leslie.
Thanks so much for listening to Conversations on Health Freedom.
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